Haloface

Don't panic, don't jump to your guns, I'm not flame baiting (for once). But this topic was brought up on another thread, and I felt it needed its own, special hearing.
So, picking up and carrying on this issue from a different thread...
Although saying Marz is sick for saluting the flag every day (although he's sick anyway, fullstop) is a bit over the top, because, well, we've no idea for the reasons he does.
Maybe he is just oddly patriotic. Let's face it - he's American.
But the issue of saluting flags and speaking the national anthem and all of that, in a country, everyday, is quite an interesting issue. Like religion, but let's not open that can of worms (see: a more fucked up thread next to this one), children are taught to do it; made to do it; get told to do it; get accustomed with doing it, throughout their childhood, and ergo their lives (if your parents/family are patriotic, you've no escape, no freedom from choosing otherwise - period. You cannot deny that).
What does that mean? Well, for one, it not only desuades any critical thinking or objection or differences they have with their country, but it also pressures and almost forces, sub-consciously (or, perhaps, in the light of this, consciously) a child/person to respect, love, and agree with their country in all and any issues. And most of all, sets in a sense of condeming a person to think any other way about their country.
Now I'm not *only* refering the the US here, but I only bring the US up because Marz is from there. And I know saluting the flag and all that is something that's done a lot in the US.
Whatchya think? Or not think, as it were :P
Is too much patriotism, such as saluting the flag, a bad thing? Is it intended as such? Is there no harm in it? Do you disagree that it would have no effect, sub-conscious or not, upon a child/person?

Dartaignon

Pledging allegiance to the country that you live in should be a common practice. Many countries have a pledge of sorts.

Let's break down what the US pledge is saying, in my words.

I pledge that I will stand by my country.
We are all united in this together.
We will not be divided, we are indivisible.
Liberty and Justice for Every citizen who takes this pledge and becomes a citizen.

Darus Grey

I disagree with this quote, In my experience, most people who raise children in a very pro USA enviroment, tend to emphasize the freedoms we have, and stress critasism of them.

Some of the worst american naysayers are probly the most rabid patriots.

Thormir

I think you're overstating the case a bit, at least when it comes to the US. Now, it is true that in school we say the pledge on a daily basis. Personally, I don't find anything wrong with this, though the very act of repetition -- I think -- dulls the effect rather than enhances it. When I was in school, I found that history was also watered down in some respects, especially in the early years when America could do no wrong. However, as one progresses one learns that our history is as virtuous as any other country's (which is to say, as bloody), and that we've had our bumps along the way toward trying to become a great society.

If dissenters weren't afforded the same protection, in the US, as non-dissenters to express their views, then your suggestion might have more merit. One cannot help what kind of lessons are taught family to family, but that's the case in any country whether you say a pledge or not. The US system encourages patriotism while allowing for expressions of patriotism that vary wildly with one another. Marz's idea of patriotism may differ from mine by leaps and bounds (or it may not), but we each may express it in our way, just as someone who's idea of patriotism is turning the US into a communist state can express his opinions (though they probably won't get much air time).

giena

Quite the opposite in my experience actually. Because of the Pledge of Allegiance and Flag Saluting, I've found that it's encouraged people to find answers for themselves. If everyone agreed and loved their country the same way on ALL issues, then we wouldnt have some many political parties. We would have one.

Are there times when we're blind and take things at face value, sure, absolutely, but show me a human that doesnt.

I'm going to agree with Darus, some of the fiercest Patriots are extremely different from me in terms of "how we should do it". In the end though, they still love their country and believe they are standing up for what is right.

Growing up, we always said that Pledge of Allegiance in the morning in homeroom. I don't remember having a seperate "salute the flag" time though, thats a new one. But hey, I'd be all for it. One should love and cherish the country they live in.

Ailwon

I grew up saying the pledge every day in school (at least in elementary school). I do love and respect my country and what it stands for, but do not "agree" with everything it does. The fact that my country respects individual freedoms is the very thing that empowers citizens to disagree with policies of administrations and thus vote for someone else next time.

I do believe added "under god" statement in the pledge should be removed. Saying that a child can "choose" not to say "under God" opens them up to ridicule from their peers IMO.

crappycleric001

If you did that in Sweden you'd be marked as a racist, really. You don't even sing the Swedish national anthem in schools anymore because it's considered racism. If you flag when it's not someones birthday or any other special occassion theres a big chance you'll be called a racist.

In that respect, I really do see the fact that Americans actually "love their flag" as something good. Cus the situation in Sweden around it is just sick.

Hubbe

I think you are overexagurating quite a lot there.

Raising the flags on someones bday isnt considered racist in any way. Same with singing the national anthem.. But if you where to say.. parade down the streets of a major city on the national day people would asume you are a part of the xenophobic political movement.

I sing the national anthem maybe 3 times a year.. Its in no way considered racist even though its not technically our national anthem. We dont really have one and "Du gamla, Du fria" just filled the void.

Baloghdarogue

I actually wrote a long post on what I thought was wrong with the pledge.
But i don't think 9-11 is the appropriate date to post it.

Maybe i'll post it later on not sure

crappycleric001

Maybe we live in different parts of the country then Hubbe, I haven't sung the national anthem in school since I was 8. It's not part of graduation here and we didn't sing it on "the national day" during the years after second grade.

I've had friends who has gotten beat up for having one of those corny Sweden t-shirts (Swedish flag and it says land of the vikings or something under it).

//Izola