Haloface

'Cause baby, it's gonna get hot in here.
Topic of the day - Force and Self Defence.

Over in England, there's been an on-going topic focused around the balance of force in regards to self defence.
How much is too much? If someone breaks in to your home - can you smack 'em? Can you kick them in the head? Can you.. shoot them in the back whilst they run away?
The latter is what happened here. A farmer had been the victim of frequest burglaries at his home. One evening he caught 2 of the people in his home. As they noticed him, they ran off. As they were running away, he shot one in the back. It turned out the thieves were 15 and 16. Anywho, the kid who was shot, died soon after in hospital. The farmer, after a massive and lengthy, controversial and media-popular trial, was sent to prison for manslaughter. He ended up doing something like a year, or some such.

So whatchya think? How far should a person be allowed to go in regards to self defence? What is considered self defence? Was the presence of these kids in his home enough of a factor to be regarded as self defence? Or maybe not as they were running away, and he shot them in the back?
Oh, and if you litter this thread with wanking over your favourite gun and how best you would have shot the thieves (See: some of the Americans on this board), then I'll tear off your balls and feed them to you on a platta of anal-fluid.
Have fun.

ThePerfectFlaw

So I can run around robbing peoples homes, but so long as I run away, it's okay, right?

Lleauric

In the USA.
Thats Murder 2nd.
If you can POSSIBLY avoid the conflict, you are obligated by law to avoid it.

There is a famous law case of a Farmer out in the country somwhere that was having one his barns broken into and robbed often...
So this Farmer set up a shotgun, attached to a window, when someone opened up the window.. BAM.. gun would go off..
And Yep.. sure enough a kid tried to burgler his barn, opened the window and got his head blown off.

Farmer was sentenced to life in jail.

For the use of force to be justified, you have to show that you had no way out and that your own life was in immeniant harm.

Ibudin

Recently in Wisconsin two people tried to break into a womans house in Madison. She looked out the window and seen what appeared to be a gun, she shot through the door and killed them both. No charges filed on the woman. They showed one of the dead would be robbers moms at the scene crying that her son shouldn't of been gunned down..I don't get it. Dont break into peoples homes and you shouldnt run into that problem.

I keep all my guns in one area and ammo in another area locked up. Would take to long for me to run and load em up to kill an intruder but then again I don't own guns for protection. I would like to think my 2 dogs would chew the nuts off anyone trying to enter my house



Ibudin

Haloface

I guess that's the problem though Ibudin. Is something as horrific and tragic as murder, justify defence in keeping your home safe?
I mean take my example - the kids were running away and shot in the back.
YES, they have no right whatsoever burglaring someone. YES, something in regards to the law and policing needs to be done. HOWEVER.. what gives you the right to shoot someone in the back as they run away?
Your property. Your life. Your belongings - absolutely.
But wouldn't, say, phoning the police and getting better security in the form of alarams or locks or reinforced window panels/doors, be a more humane way of dealing with 2 kids, then murdering them?

I dunno. I think the use of force in self defence is a given right, I do. But I don't think anyone has the right to take it as far as murder if it's out of context. I mean if you're in a bar, some guy comes up and whacks you. By all means, have a few rounds. But should you be allowed to then stab this guy in the face with a broken bottle and kill him?
I think it's all about balancing between threat and force, obviously. But I guess that's the grey area.

I was once mugged on a train home. It was broad daylight, and I was sitting in an area pretty much on my own. There was one entrance/exit to the area I was sitting in, which was closed off when a kid came along and asked for a quid. I said I didn't have any money, and he went. 2 mins later, about 4 kids pile through the door. I tried to deal with it as best I could; not resisting, as it's only money (which I lied about not having, seen as I didn't have a lot). But I've almost never felt as angry as that before, and if I could have, I would have beat the living shit out of those kids. But kill them?
Whose right is that?

Ibudin

If the intruder was running down the street and out of my house and you shot him in the back, it's cold blooded murder period. If the intruder was breaking into my home and showing signs of potentially being dangerous..holding something, large person, mutliple people..I will do what ever it takes to protect my family period. I hope I am never in that position and hope no one puts me in that position.

It's all were you live Halo..if you see on a daily basis people being killed in there own home because some crack head is looking to steal some drug money. You are on the defense all ready for the get go. My family > anything else and won't hestiate in the least bit to do what it takes to insure their safety ..so yes murder is a justified means defence in keeping my home safe. If you would rather have them stuff a knife in your loved ones chest or shoot them because they are affraid of a witness..then good for you.


Keep in mind I am not talking about walking out into my garage and seeing someone running off with something of mine.. I would be happy he ran off and I didn't have to deal with him. Insurance covers that..what I am talking about is someone breaking into my home or already in my home and showing no signs of leaving or worse yet threating me.



Ibudin

Furtivus

This is wrong on so many levels. Criminal law varies by state. In Alabama, for example, you are not required to retreat from your home during a burglary. Furthermore, I believe all states allow you to use force in the defense of another; you are not required to show that "your own life" was threatened.

Finally, deadly physical force is justified (at least in AL) if you reasonably believe someone is using or about to use physical force against you or your family during the commission or attempted commission of a burglery in your home. The burglar does not have to be using deadly physical force. If a burglar breaks in and starts tieing your wife up with a rope, you are justified in using deadly physical force. You are not required to retreat as stated above.

Osgiliath666

In Colorado we have the "Make my Day" law. If someone breakes into your home and you "FEEL" that that person is an immediate threat to your family or home feel free to place his head all over your wall. There is of course more to this law but we have been given the proper oppertunity to protect ourselfs here with out the fear of punishment for just that. Hell, i had a sheriff in the rural town I live in tell me that if I shot someone on my property just drag in the house and they wouldn't even do an investigation.

Furtivus

One more thing. The act we're debating is not murder. Even in the original case it wasn't murder, it was manslaughter. Use deadly physical force to describe the act.

Haloface

'i had a sheriff in the rural town I live in tell me that if I shot someone on my property just drag in the house and they wouldn't even do an investigation. '

- That's.. a joke, right?