Might as well open up a VP thread so we can keep the two seperate.

Anyone else notice Edwards is repearting Kerry doctrine almost word for ward. He is also spending most of his time explaining Kerry flip flops....

Anyone notice how Cheney is... still Cheney?

CNNFn had a nifty real-time graf of the audiance reaction to the debate. Divided up among men and women. Very telling.

Cheney being Cheney... Well, that's a good thing.

Cheney did an excellent job in this debate. Edwards seemed awkward at times.

I believe that Edwards did extremely well in pinpointing the weakenesses of the current administration, which is what he set out to do.

Also, I loved that Cheney didn't have a rebuttal to the gay marriage question. My hat is off to him, that is very smart debating. His opinion on that issue is not the same as his parties, so instead of doing something to ostracize voters, he just kept quiet.

I wanted to see them arm wrestle.

The entire debate was pretty lame, was just a rehash of the last debate. Looks like pretty much most democrats believe Edwards won, most republicans belive Cheney won -- surprise surprise!

looks like no one won

Every poll ive seen has had them really close, some say Cheney won, some say Edwards won, both parties will say their candidate won, but I'd call it a stalemate.

Well, there is not much difference between Democrats and the GOP these days other than a few faith based issues. Some have once even stated that Bill Clinton was the best Republican we have ever had. It would be nice to see partizanship tossed out the window for once, and a canidate to emerge that can actually lead, instead of read out of their party's guidebook.

The whole thing with Cheney...I dunno. The guy seems dirty. He had a major stake in the firm (Halliburton) tasked originally with the bulk of the reconstruction of oil production assets and infrastructure (never mind all the civilian shit we destroyed) in Iraq (which the Army now wants to open up for rebids since Halliburton is supposedly doing a questionable job) as well as numerous ties to Big Oil. One sometimes has to wonder if his loyalities are for the benifit of the nation, or enriching his own already substantial 8 figure bank account. I would hate to think we killed alot of Iraqis in addition to the loss of our own troops and our reputation in the world community over greed.

The War on Terror IS still a good idea, and taking out Saddam was still a good idea. There just seems to be too mamy gray areas though. Too many areas of doubt that seem exploitable if veiled in patriotism and altruism. Cheney more often than not seems like the silent partner who is the intellect behind a flim- flam that Bush sells to the people very easily by manipulation of sentiments following 9-11. Wars are always dirty though and in every war there is opportunity for those in the right positions to enrich themselves. Damn, I really hope I am totally wrong, otherwise it will make Enron look like a teenager lifting a couple bucks out of their parent's wallet to buy a dime bag.

I'm still a little more concerned about the hands reaching into the pockets of oil for food, than Cheney running Haliburton.

But thats for another thread...

Edwards = Kerry's puppet, Kerry himself said it early on, the guy isnt qualified. But then I geuss he flip flopped again.

Biggest thing with these debates, is no matter how the arguement goes, unless one of them breaks down weeping and curls up in the fetal position in response to a question. Either side is going to think their candidate won.

Biggest thing with these debates, is no matter how the arguement goes, unless one of them breaks down weeping and curls up in the fetal position in response to a question. Either side is going to think their candidate won.

Very true.

Talid made some good points, I agree with him on both.

Of course they repeated what was said from the Pres debates there is a purpose for this.

It keeps the issues active and doesn't add anything new to the table which in turn will prevent this Vice Pred debates from swinging leverage in the polls. At least that is what some Analyst said this AM lol.

Regardless having watched this debate did not help me decide who to vote for.

Lummus, there are many, many fundamental differences between dems and reps. The main one being how they view the US and the world. Dems believe in a global economy with all countries working together for the good of the globe. Reps believe in US imperialism. We rule the world, everyone else is our bitch, we tell them what to do, etc. Another is the obvious one. Dems are more for socialism and reps are for capitalism (hard core capitalism at that). The whole notion of Bush making "mistakes" is ridiculous really. Noone in politics makes mistakes. Everything they do is calculated and intentional. We went to Iraq to secure the oil, and as a side prize, Cheney devised a plan to funnel billions of tax payer dollars to his and other companies. Hey, lets destroy this country and then give gov money to halliburton (no bid) to fix it. If they had bin laden cornered and then let warlords go for him, that was probably intentional. They didnt want it to be over so soon, because without an enemy looming in the darkness, they cannot implement their patriot acts and who knows what other big brother shit they implemented in the name of homeland security. To the vp debate, I think they both did well. That debate was probably a tie. There was a ton of finger pointing and "you got your facts wrong" and "you are mistaken". Anyone who knows about politics, though, knows that is standard procedure. Politics is all about pleasing your constituents and contributors. Bush has some huge business contributors so he has to throw them alot of bones (halliburton, enron).


Phelonius

I expected Cheney to do well, and he did. The "Senator Gone" jab was very good, as was his refusal to talk about the gay issues and break the party line (as was mentioned above).

Edwards, though a bit hesitant and awkward at the start, did better than I thought he would.


I'd put Cheney ahead, but just because the incumbent wins ties.

Edwards certainly has the charisma. My girlfriend kept swooning, it was kinda amusing. Frankly though the big show is Friday and this is nothing more than the kids-next-door garage band as the opening act. What I'm hearing from my friend who works at the Republican office downtown is that they were both told to keep to the issues of the presidential debate and to be very cautious about new issues (hence why foreign policy was like 80% of the vice presidential debate) because the real debate is gonna come on Friday and any accidental changes to the agenda would make the planning already in progress for Friday ... well null.

The entire debate was pretty lame, was just a rehash of the last debate. Looks like pretty much most democrats believe Edwards won, most republicans belive Cheney won -- surprise surprise!Well this sums up this thread. VP debate = waste(sp) of time. Always has, always will. All they ever do is back their respective would-be president. The VP is like a parasite, you vote for the president and you get this mongrel in tow.

The whole thing with Cheney...I dunno. The guy seems dirty

No offense Lum but do you have any idea where Edwards got his money?? Figure it out then tell me which one is "dirty".

Rigin

In terms of actual debate, Cheney came out ahead by a good margin, IMO. If it had been broadcast on radio alone rather than on TV, only the most fervent Dems would claim otherwise.

In terms of appearance, Edwards won by default. Cheney looked like he needed a very large dose of Ex-Lax.

In terms of honesty... well, the raw bullshit was not as thick as between the two Munchausens in the presidential debate, but plenty of it came from both sides.

What one thinks of the result simply depends on how much stock one puts in appearance. I thought Cheney won. Your mileage may vary.

If I remember right, he is a trial lawyer who took on some controversial cases and pulled in alot of money for his clients and himself. He mostly only takes on the big payoff cases. So, he is wealthy. That is true. If some could question the shear size of the rewards as a result of the litegation ( I think it mostly has to do with medical malpractice) and if they were justified, that is also a valid point.

Neither of them are squeaky clean. I don't think you can go into politics without having your hand pretty deep in the cookie jar most of the time. You need millions and all the connections that being in that elite club gives you once you add that 7th figure to your salary. Most government decisions concerning our lives are made on golf cources or on Gulfstream jets on the way to exclusive private retreats. We are a capitalist country, are we not? Our leaders should be well versed in what is our most important function as Americans, and that is to make money and consume. Still, it seems that the lesson has been forgotten that in business there still needs to be ethics or you won't be in business for long.

I am just tired of the whole concept of voting for the lesser of two evils. No one runs a campaign that is anything less than who can out-slander who and who can dig up the most dirt. The issues don't matter as much as the negativity, so what is really important tends to just fade into the background. My vote will not go to either one. Fuck em both.

Dems believe in a global economy
Where do you get this stuff? You realize Kerry is running on an extremely protectionist anti-global economy platform?

Anyone see the clip of Cheney and Edwards sitting next to each other in November 2001. That made me laugh so hard.

Poor Dick I guess too many operations made him forget.
Did anyone else think he looked a little Jaundiced?

To me he just looked serious; at least as not as ridiculous as Edwards looked at times.

That was pretty funny Kelraz, Cheney is all like "Before tonight I have never seen you before mr. Edwards.. IM an old Gimp GRRR" and then there is a pic that shows them sitting right next to each other HAHAHA.. I LOVE STEWART!:devil

Of course the really funny thing is that only *one* picture could be found, these guys should see each other on a *weekly* basis(at least) due to their jobs.

Cheney won it, Edwards mainly scored with his good looks instead of substance(well, it *IS* what he is there for to be fair).

Like everybody said, pretty much a finger-pointing session, with all the same bullshit rehashed. I was so waiting for Cheney to blurt out " Edwards, you ignorant slut!". But, I did think it was pretty slimy of Edwards to drag Cheney's family into it with the crack about his daughter. It's one thing to call you opponent a liar and a cheat, but thats lower than whale shit to have to sink to saying shit about someone's daughter.


Zornhed

What "shit" was said? If Edwards said "shit" about Cheney's daughter (who, btw, is "Director of Vice Presidential Operations for BC04), why did Cheney thank him for it?

Im pretty much could care less about Kerry but I really didnt take his remark towards Cheney's daughter that god aweful. I mean shes a proud lesbian ..wtf do they care if they are referenced in the way he used her as an example. Was just somebody all Americans can relate to and he didnt say you poor lesbian you lost your ways growing up and turned out the way you did..he simply said people like Chenys daughter are born with this and nothing could possibly changed the outcome..isn't this what they been saying all along..its not a choice.

Ibudin

I have to agree. While bringing her name up is obviously meant to make a political point, Kerry's reference was hardly disrespectful.

Anyone remember Newt Gingrich's proud lesbian activist daughter? We have been through this before.


Phelonius

While bringing her name up is obviously meant to make a political point, Kerry's reference was hardly disrespectful.Yup, for political reasons he used her. Even though she's not in the public working for Bush/Cheney, Kerry dragged her into the public debate. I simply thought it was crass when I first heard it....

Then I heard Kerry's campaign manager say she was "fair game." Wtf? No, she's not "fair game" and neither were any of the candidates' families "fair game" during any of the debates, per the rules they all agreed to.

Then Edward's wife accuses Cheney of being ashamed of their daughter? The old phrase, "most dangerous place in the world is between a cub and a momma bear" came to my mind.

Kerry should've apologized when Cheney's family raised a problem with what he said. Instead, he made it worse... and now we see just another example that Kerry will say or do anything just to get elected.

John Kerry is losing, and losing big time. How do I know this?

"When Bush is elected, he's going to reinstate the draft." straight from Kerry's mouth today. Doesn't matter that Democrats were the only ones in Congress for the draft again, let's spin and make up allegations "to get out the vote" at whatever cost.

John Kerry, in the last debate, said he'd not pander lies to get votes through his outsourcing arguments. I wish he held that standard to all of his public appearances, because for the last few weeks he's been saying "One million blacks were denied the vote last election!" Pure bullshit and he knows it. Nevermind, even in Florida 2000, the thirteen or fourteen counties that had "voter problems" were run my Democrats and one Independent. Maybe they should appoint new election commissions, fixing their problems themselves, instead of blaming the Republicans? Nooo, it's easier to blame someone else.

And now we find out Democrats and their thousands of lawyers are going to allege voter fraud even when they don't see any evidence of it? Come on, what the hell is this? A fucking banana republic? Are we going to need Jimmy Carter's approval for our next election or what?

Yup, for political reasons he used her. Even though she's not in the public working for Bush/Cheney... She's managing her father's campaign. In any case, the Bush camp is characterizing Kerry's comments as an "attack" on Mary Cheney. One might say it was inappropriate, but to call it an attack is absurd. But the Bushies will say anything, eh?
Kerry should've apologized when Cheney's family raised a problem with what he said. Instead, he made it worse Kerry made it worse because Edwards' wife made some comment?
John Kerry is losing, and losing big time. How do I know this? Because you live in Fantasyland? To quote Bush in one of his finest gaffes, "It's kind of one of those ex-a-gger-ations."
And now we find out Democrats and their thousands of lawyers are going to allege voter fraud Both sides have been preparing for a possible legal battle. After 2000, it makes sense to do so. Pretending that the Republicans don't have a legion of legal servitors awaiting the call is, well, fantasy.

But hey, maybe the Republican backed Voter's Outreach of America will succeed in destroying (http://www2.kval.com/x30530.xml?ParentPageID=x2649&ContentID=x47627&Layout=kval.xsl&AdGroupID=x30530) Democratic registration forms to swing the election in Bush's favor.

She's managing her father's campaign. In any case, the Bush camp is characterizing Kerry's comments as an "attack" on Mary Cheney. One might say it was inappropriate, but to call it an attack is absurd. But the Bushies will say anything, eh?
Edwards and his wife had one of their children die early in their marriage, and it obviously had a huge impact on their lives. How repugnant would it be if Bush started trying to use that for his own political gain? Dis-fucking-graceful.

Kerry divorced his first wife to "marry up" to Teresa, leaving his first two daughters in a torn family. People would be screaming for Bush's head if he tried to use that somehow against Kerry. You just don't use your opponent's children to score political points against their father or mother.

And besides, the rules of the debate specifically stated neither could use the other's family in their debates. Guess that's yet another little rule that Kerry can break and get away with.

Both sides have been preparing for a possible legal battle.
Yup. Trying to get a job at CBS though? You could have quoted my entire statement...

-> And now we find out Democrats and their thousands of lawyers are going to allege voter fraud even when they don't see any evidence of it.

But hey, maybe the Republican backed Voter's Outreach of America will succeed in destroying (http://www2.kval.com/x30530.xml?ParentPageID=x2649&ContentID=x47627&Layout=kval.xsl&AdGroupID=x30530) Democratic registration forms to swing the election in Bush's favor.
They should lock his ass up 5 years for each card he tore up, but that's just my humble opinion.

But I also wonder if there's more to this. I've been seeing alot of fraud alleged on TV where people are paid per registration they do. I think ACORN in Colorado and Florida made it on the evening news there.

What happens, if by some miracle these voter registration organizations discover fake registrations from one of their employees? Do they tear them up? Or are they submitted anyway to the local election commission to let the government figure it out? Hmmm...