From what I gather, and I'm suprised it's not getting more traction, a push is coming to ditch the secret vote when it comes unionizing a shop.

I think this comes at a bad time, given the economy , and I'm curious why in the fuck anyone would push this. There's a reason for the secrecy, and you can look to the strong arm tendecies of the past unions.

I'm a union member myself of one of the largest unions in the country. I don't want this crap, it's going to be hell....

http://www.timesleader.com/news/Union-friendly__bill_controversial_11-23-2008.html

ughh...

I was reading an article about Ford and the UAW union. They have guys installing windshields who make over $50 an hour because they worked for Ford for 20 years. Chevy had people as high as $74 working on the line. (correction including benefits http://www.topix.com/us/politics/2008/11/uaw-causes-breakdown)

If our economy was thriving, yay, but with the potential of this legislation i am concerned.

What's curious is that they say this allows a company like toyota to have a $1000.00 dollar cost advantage over a GM or Ford yet I don't recall anyone buying a Toyota based on price, it seems more based on quality and service.

Many of the Toyota plants are in "right to work" states. This means there are no unions ( they fail their votes ). I believe this is a push to get unions in those states by bullying/strong arming the people who don't support the push to unionize. If this passes I foresee a new wave of strikes in those states. During a rough time in the economy this would be devestating so they hope those companies in "right to work" states would have to cave in.

I think this is a mistake as companies like Toyota would pull up stakes and cost more jobs.

I really really hope this doesn't get through. If it does I hope it blows up in the faces of those that are on the payroll of the Unions.

What's curious is that they say this allows a company like toyota to have a $1000.00 dollar cost advantage over a GM or Ford yet I don't recall anyone buying a Toyota based on price, it seems more based on quality and service.

It would seem Unions only benefit themselves in that regard.

Oh , while working for Autoliv in the Toyota division there was one belief pushed down to us.

Quality sells, and omg those Toyota reps were merciless in their desire for perfection.

Oh , while working for Autoliv in the Toyota division there was one belief pushed down to us.

Quality sells, and omg those Toyota reps were merciless in their desire for perfection.


I think we agree, people will usually pay for quality vs just price. I know I'd rather have a quality vehicle than one that was just cheaper.

Oh I was totally agreeing with you Rover.

Just trying to pass on from the inside how fierce they are about the subject of quality.

When Toyota, after decades of pushing, thinks of defects they rate their suppliers by defects per million parts. I can't recall the % they drove us to but at first we were sure we could never make that happen.

We were wrong, we managed it and I'm sure our domestic companies can if they go back to square one.

Explain why this is the coming of the apocalypse.

The two methods for recognizing a union in the United States begin with an employee petition for representation by a union. If 30% to a clear majority of employees sign petition cards requesting representation, then the cards are submitted to the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) for a secret ballot election. If more than 50% of employees certify their desire for representation, then a union can choose to form using card check procedures. Under current U.S. law, the employer need not recognize the card check petition and can require a secret-ballot vote overseen by the NLRB.

Under the proposed Employee Free Choice Act, introduced in the United States Congress in 2005 and again in 2007, the NLRB would recognize the union's role as the official bargaining representative if a majority of employees have authorized that representation via card check, without requiring a secret ballot election.[1] It was passed by the House on March 1, 2007, but failed a cloture vote in the Senate. The Employee Free Choice Act allows employees to choose a secret ballot process to elect union representation if they do not desire a card check election, but employers are required to accept whichever method employees choose.

So if 51% of the workers send in cards, then the Government recognizes the Union as the official bargining unit.

Whats the big deal? All this does is removes a pretty unnecessary step of then giving the government the delaying power of making the employees conduct a second, secret, election.

The only change really is that now, its the employer that decides if they want the second secret election. This bill gives the opportunity for a second election to be the decision of the workers. Its not the decision of the employer if employees organize. And what usually happens is that large employers (most infamously hospitals) use the time between the card check and the secret election, which they delay as much as possible to wage a campaign against the union.

Explain why this is the coming of the apocalypse.



So if 51% of the workers send in cards, then the Government recognizes the Union as the official bargining unit.

Whats the big deal? All this does is removes a pretty unnecessary step of then giving the government the delaying power of making the employees conduct a second, secret, election.




The big deal is that the other 49% of the workers are never given the chance to voice their desire, yes or no, on the forming of a union; in a democratic system, they have been disenfranchised. The reason for the "secret" vote is that the brow-beating and harassment that some have reported with regard to signing or not signing the cards is not a weapon available with the vote; you can make your choice in a personal manner the same as with voting for political office without anyone else knowing your choice, unless you share it.

When you sign the card for a union, both the union rep and management have access to the information of who supported forming the union, and there are many ways this information can be, and is, misused. If you do not sign the card, without that vote available you have no choice in whether you will be unionized, if 51% of your coworkers sign it.

This push to get rid of the "secret" vote is being pushed by big business as a union breaking tool. There were a shitload of ads during the Senate race here in Minnesota about this issue, and guess what? They were paid for by BUSINESS lobbyists. On the other hand, the push to eliminate the secret ballot is also being described as a power play by organized labor seeking to expand it's influence. Six of one, and a half doszen of the other.

A recent poll in Minnesota (as reported by columnist Ed Matthews in Sunday's St Paul Pioneer press) stated "82% of Minnesotans believe private ballot elections are the cornerstone of democracy and should be kept for union elections".

The big deal is that the other 49% of the workers are never given the chance to voice their desire, yes or no, on the forming of a union; in a democratic system, they have been disenfranchised.

No, it means they lost an election. Not filling in a card is counted as a "no vote".

The reason for the "secret" vote is that the brow-beating and harassment that some have reported with regard to signing or not signing the cards is not a weapon available with the vote; you can make your choice in a personal manner the same as with voting for political office without anyone else knowing your choice, unless you share it.

Or just, I don't know, not fill out a card?
This isnt a matter of eliminating browbeating and intimidation, this is just a way to give employers a chance to browbeat and intimidate by the addition of an unnecessary step and delay tactics.

When you sign the card for a union, both the union rep and management have access to the information of who supported forming the union, and there are many ways this information can be, and is, misused. If you do not sign the card, without that vote available you have no choice in whether you will be unionized, if 51% of your coworkers sign it.

This makes no sense at all. So you dont have a vote if you decide you dont want a union and dont vote for one. Under the law, if you dont fill out a card, its considered a No vote. You did vote.
The tyranny of 51% is a well known and long established core point of any democratic principle.

And even THEN, if the EMPLOYEES CHOOSE, they can STILL have a secret ballot.


A recent poll in Minnesota (as reported by columnist Ed Matthews in Sunday's St Paul Pioneer press) stated "82% of Minnesotans believe private ballot elections are the cornerstone of democracy and should be kept for union elections".

Um. Ed Matthews is a Republican that ran for Congress in the Fourth Congressional district in Minnesota.
http://www.edmatthewsforcongress.com/

Unbelievable. How can Unions feel they have even remotely a sliver of chance at anything during the age of the Global Sweatshop Economy. If they really cared about manufacturing and workers, unions would close up shop and fade away and allow companies to figure out a way to be competative enough to keep people employed at all, let alone doing a job for 75 dollars an hour that someone being paid 15 dollars an hour or less should be doing.

The 75.00/hr thing is a myth.

Autoworkers have made concessions over the last few years that have brought their wages down to where they are just about the same as Japanese workers.

The average wage for a Detroit autoworker is 28.00/hr.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/24/opinion/main4630103.shtml

'The big deal is that the other 49% of the workers are never given the chance to voice their desire,'

- That's democracy, and it sure as hell has its short-comings. But you know what Churchill said...

U. How can Unions feel they have even remotely a sliver of chance at anything during the age of the Global Sweatshop Economy.

If they were smart they'd be unionizing India, but we still have people disappeared for that overseas. That our standard of living is unmaintainable is known, but be careful the conditions you hope for.


As for the secret vote thing, it is NEVER in the interests of the voters themselves to have their votes known if the point of the election is true representation of their will. This isn't unions versus angry yuppies, this is mathematical. If the point of the election is something else besides their will, well that changes the rules, but then again is that the sort of goal we want?


Also, it's not strictly fair to directly compare labor costs to Toyota, because so much of their heavy manufacturing is done in Japan for later assembly here. Their required labor per car, in the US, is a fraction of the full labor.

No, it means they lost an election. Not filling in a card is counted as a "no vote".



Or just, I don't know, not fill out a card?
This isnt a matter of eliminating browbeating and intimidation, this is just a way to give employers a chance to browbeat and intimidate by the addition of an unnecessary step and delay tactics.



This makes no sense at all. So you dont have a vote if you decide you dont want a union and dont vote for one. Under the law, if you dont fill out a card, its considered a No vote. You did vote.
The tyranny of 51% is a well known and long established core point of any democratic principle.

And even THEN, if the EMPLOYEES CHOOSE, they can STILL have a secret ballot.



Um. Ed Matthews is a Republican that ran for Congress in the Fourth Congressional district in Minnesota.
http://www.edmatthewsforcongress.com/


Not signing a card is not signing a card; it is not a vote at all. A person may want to have the union but not want to have his employer aware of his desire.

And because the person I cited as having quoted a poll is Republican means what? Have you really become that petty in your view of things? Being a republican invalidates anything that is offered?

Pretty pointless pursuing any discussion of this with you, I guess, since I am not a Democrat.

The 75.00/hr thing is a myth.

Autoworkers have made concessions over the last few years that have brought their wages down to where they are just about the same as Japanese workers.

The average wage for a Detroit autoworker is 28.00/hr.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/24/opinion/main4630103.shtml

It's not a myth at all, sorry you don't have family working in the industry L2. Until 2 years ago my lil sister, with just high school education , was making 25 bucks a hour ...STARTING pay. Told her to get a bit of education to earn that pay, she ignored it and now is out of work in ole Anderson Indiana ;(

New workers ave wage is 28 bucks an hour, and btw that's not the total bennies plus wages figure where the total package is >>>>>than Japanese workers.

It's tiered now, where if you have X seniority you make % more than the base per years you've been there.

$75 is actually the total package , with health care the company pays plus other sunderies is figured into a total hourly figure.

For example, in Utah (right to work state), our top pay at Autoliv for production worker was 12.50 a hour. Once you figure in bennies and such the figure used to establish the overhead per person at that rate was actually 28 bucks a hour.

That's how the eager to swallow press, and those looking to tear down the arguement as you are, want to jump and say nuh uh.

Truth is first 5 years at the big 3 make ave 28 bucks a hour then you figure in bennies. After that it jumps..

Oh btw the push to end the secret vote is being pushed by the Unions, not big business.

The unions need to go global than!

Make it like the United Nations, only its the UNion!

If they were smart they'd be unionizing India, but we still have people disappeared for that overseas. That our standard of living is unmaintainable is known, but be careful the conditions you hope for.


As for the secret vote thing, it is NEVER in the interests of the voters themselves to have their votes known if the point of the election is true representation of their will. This isn't unions versus angry yuppies, this is mathematical. If the point of the election is something else besides their will, well that changes the rules, but then again is that the sort of goal we want?


Also, it's not strictly fair to directly compare labor costs to Toyota, because so much of their heavy manufacturing is done in Japan for later assembly here. Their required labor per car, in the US, is a fraction of the full labor.

Sorry as someone who used to venture to Toyota plants for quality issues I want to dispel this lil story right here.

Their costs are down due to how they manage their inventories ( they don't buy months ahead of time) They only have a 2 or 3 day supply of materials on sight , depending on risk.

They build from wheel up in much the same manner as the Big 3. Toyota does not ship in engines prebuilt etc etc to their assembly plants from overseas as the cost of shipping such weight is counterproductive to doing it on sight.

They also save by building in Right to work states.

Don't know where you guys get your info but you're offbase on this one.

No, it means they lost an election. Not filling in a card is counted as a "no vote".



Or just, I don't know, not fill out a card?
This isnt a matter of eliminating browbeating and intimidation, this is just a way to give employers a chance to browbeat and intimidate by the addition of an unnecessary step and delay tactics.



This makes no sense at all. So you dont have a vote if you decide you dont want a union and dont vote for one. Under the law, if you dont fill out a card, its considered a No vote. You did vote.
The tyranny of 51% is a well known and long established core point of any democratic principle.

And even THEN, if the EMPLOYEES CHOOSE, they can STILL have a secret ballot.



Um. Ed Matthews is a Republican that ran for Congress in the Fourth Congressional district in Minnesota.
http://www.edmatthewsforcongress.com/

See Attachment for irony....

wow 75.00 an hour?

So basically a living wage a person can make and still support their family without needing a weekend and a night job!!!

What will they think of next?

No No no...

It's only $75 a hour once you figure in the "perks". Employers have to pay a group of fees (insurance, matching 401k, workers comp, etc etc). As a rule of thumb it's aprox half the figure listed in the $75 per hour being bandied about.

That means the employee is making aprox $34 per hour ;P Nothing to sneeze at, that's well over 60k a year before overtime.

In states other than high cost of living states like California that's a dern fine wage ;P

Their costs are down due to how they manage their inventories ( they don't buy months ahead of time) They only have a 2 or 3 day supply of materials on sight , depending on risk.

They build from wheel up in much the same manner as the Big 3. Toyota does not ship in engines prebuilt etc etc to their assembly plants from overseas as the cost of shipping such weight is counterproductive to doing it on sight.



Thats the Toyota ideaolgy, Lean Manufacturing. Make your suppliers hold the inventory, if they want to be your supplier.

Aye Ib, schooled in that method as well I see?

They also believe in developing suppliers that are within a few hours drive.

Even better they push their suppliers to only build what's needed so they don't incur cost of unused inventories.

It's rather a beautiful thing to see as it runs from order to shipping once everyone is on board.

Yea we have implemented Lean a few years back. It has its advantages. One of the glaring problems though with Lean is that with reduced inventorys, if a supply spike happens on long lead time items..people get screwed and very frustrated. Common parts like valves, that used to be abundant and quickly made can turn into a 6-8 week lead time item. Take a transformer that used to take 6 weeks now takes 16 months...oh but we can make it you expidite for 200% of its value.

Well someone failed to do risk management then. Unless it's a one time fail?

Lean can be applied to daily needs and basic supply of a company. I need X component to make X pounds of product, our demands and work loads are predicted month to two months out..no problem. Do a large expansion, for instance we put in a 12 million dollar production line last year. 10 years ago, the components needed to build that line would of been fairly easy and fast to get...fast forward now the items you used to be able to get are now long lead times because no one wants to hold an inventory of ANYTHING anymore. Do a push pull manufacturing with an item you need to get from China...you cannot get a steady supply no matter what. Customs, weather, rail, paper work...not very realistic just in time production. One month I have 20 containers show up when I need 2, and when I need 20, 6 will show up. Synthesizing pigment in the US isn't done all that often so getting it right down the road isnt an option either. Lean has helped but the people who never experience real world production and want to regurgitate from the LEAN books, need to get real at times. (talking about some of the people I work with).

Not to derail but Lean is fun to chat about.

No No no...

It's only $75 a hour once you figure in the "perks". Employers have to pay a group of fees (insurance, matching 401k, workers comp, etc etc). As a rule of thumb it's aprox half the figure listed in the $75 per hour being bandied about.

That means the employee is making aprox $34 per hour ;P Nothing to sneeze at, that's well over 60k a year before overtime.

In states other than high cost of living states like California that's a dern fine wage ;P
__________________s.

75.00 Is not reality.

That number, if you read the article, comes from when they add the benefits of retirees onto currently working employees wages. 75/hr comes from LEGACY COSTS that are added on that workers never see or never benefit from.

Its not about the press, or opinion, or belief... its about the facts. Im sure you have a wonderful anecdotal story, but reality is what it is.
Prove me wrong.

Not signing a card is not signing a card; it is not a vote at all. A person may want to have the union but not want to have his employer aware of his desire.

And because the person I cited as having quoted a poll is Republican means what? Have you really become that petty in your view of things? Being a republican invalidates anything that is offered?

Pretty pointless pursuing any discussion of this with you, I guess, since I am not a Democrat.

No.. dude, I alerted you to the fact that he is not a columnist as you stated.. but a person that was running for office when he wrote that.
Do you not see that makes an important distinction when considering the source?

And yes.. you DO have a say and vote.

"Would you like to sign this card to get a union?"

"No"

look... your voice was heard.

ANd besides.. YOU CAN STILL HAVE A SECRET VOTE. Expect under this law, its the EMPLOYEES decision... not the Employers.

I'm also sure you have a wonderful book taught with no facts or reality behind it story you wish to push down our throats.

$75 a hour contains benefits and yes the cost of legacy. I never ever said that there were folks making $75 a hour. They do however make above the 28bucks a hour you lied err were trying to mislead us with. They didn't step down the wages of the folks that have been there (there was a minor paycut but they make it up with overtime). That was only for the new folks...sorry buster, you are well...busted.

However, like of late anything or anyone trying to get a point across to you is nothing if it doesn't have a degree. Really your elitist attitude blocks you from learning. I hope this is only your internet tough attitude and not one you use for the students. Or you'll end up finding a some parent one day reminding you of the humble fun loving guy you used to be.

Oh, as for proving you wrong? I don't have to, you have to prove you are right when it comes to the avg wage being that low. It's wrong, flat wrong. Prove yourself right teacher, you can't but go ahead from your cloud upon high and attempt to do so.

Even if you can implicitly "no vote" by not voting at all, if the vote isn't secret then isn't it easy to determine who voted no? The particular mechanism for voting seems irrelevant to the issue of secret voting.

I don't know much about the internal workings of unions, so maybe I'm misunderstanding.

You need to do a lil more research on union history L2. You're a history buff after all.

Cards are passed out in public, union strongarms watch what you do. There was a lot of heat put on folks from both sides , union and management, to vote this way or that.

Keep the secret ballot, it's the only way this will work out.


....this message brought to you from a member of AFGE...

Even if you can implicitly "no vote" by not voting at all, if the vote isn't secret then isn't it easy to determine who voted no? The particular mechanism for voting seems irrelevant to the issue of secret voting.

I don't know much about the internal workings of unions, so maybe I'm misunderstanding.


You are 100% correct San and it's why the law was written as it was years ago. It needs to stay that way. Nothing like the hardcore tactics of threats, following you home, making their presence felt ( management or union alike ).

Ahhh and in the advent that some missed out on one of the real criminals behind the high "total" wage of the american auto worker I'll clue ya in.

Outrageous health care costs to both employee and employer....

I'm also sure you have a wonderful book taught with no facts or reality behind it story you wish to push down our throats.


Im really amazed at how some people have turned ignorance and anti intellectualism into a virtue.

Cards are passed out in public, union strongarms watch what you do. There was a lot of heat put on folks from both sides , union and management, to vote this way or that.

Oh give me a break. You watch too many movies.

In public? Yes.. People gather around the village fucking green while mob goons patrol nearby.

Where, oh wise one, do you think these cards are handed out? OH I KNOW. In the place of employment.

Union strongarms... lol ok.

If you are done reenacting a scene from "Hoffa", you can probably learn something by, oh I don't know, >GASP< finding information from a variety of sources, and putting it into a contextual frame by which to gain greater understanding..

Or you just rely on your mothers best friends aunt judys beaver's dad to supply some sort of near meaningless story that you are clinging to which only serves to reinforce some myopic belief, despite the onslaught of reality

I'm neither, and I am also suprised that some could turn their heads from experience and a differing opinion because it comes from someone from a different party. Tho I've participated in more election drives and hell voted your party more than a few times.

It's what's wrong with the new Democrats and hell Republicans...it's all black and white.

If you are done reenacting a scene from "Hoffa", you can probably learn something by, oh I don't know, >GASP< finding information from a variety of sources, and putting it into a contextual frame by which to gain greater understanding..

What would you consider to be the right sources?

Love how L2 has gone to stage two of internet tough and called me out ( after I replied and by editing his own post). School kids must be rough on him lately.

I didn't get my info from Hoffa, it's fairly common knowledge. I did grow up in two seperate homes. My Dad, who was anti Union, and my Mom's who's new Husband is very pro Union. I've heard all the arguments and there's no way a green kid like yourself is going to convince me that thar book learning that was shoved up your self righteous ass is greater than the 20 years of debates and arguements from both sides.

I lived in the Auto belt junior...you ever witness a real hardcore strike? See the damage to your Father's truck because my Dad refused to honor the strike. See he had too many kids to feed and too much pride to strike over a few bucks. Damage caused by the same guys he worked beside before he rose up off the floor.

You ever see a non union shops working conditions? Ever stand there trying to work out the quality of dog food gone wrong because the workers won't stay? Try to feed your family on 5 bucks a hour because it's all the work there is atm. With no health care and a new baby in the house??

No, you haven't...instead you believe everything you read and then dare to preach from your white picket fence about How you know all be all.

Wake up man, you used to have a bit of wisdom behind those peepers of yours. Now you just preach the party line and think that lil article you linked was solid proof of your side of the story. Reread it jackass, it's very obviously biased , maybe read it where it talks in a very negative and pro union bias about the Toyota management wanting to keep the unions out.

Guess what, it's also the employee's......but no you're too damn full of yourself to see that. You read the first two paragraphs and quoted it as gospel.

That depends on the topic.

But the definition of a good source is pretty easy to define.

Are the contentions of the author backed up by other reputable sources?
What are the motivations of the author, what things can effect credibility?
Has the work been vetted by others in the field and found to be sound?

Those things would help qualify a source to be useful and instructive.

But at some point the rubber has to hit the road. So you go through as much good information as you can find, from both sides, weigh and measure, and make a decision as to what you think to be the stronger argument.
But unless you base that decision on strong facts, then its meaningless.

If what you are getting at is for me to name some sources I use, then I can't really be of help because Im pretty much an information junkie. I consume as much as I can get from a really wide array of sources.

The internet is one of the great gifts that Humankind has ever been given. To have more information than ever before in the history of mankind at your instantaneous beck and call is nothing short of a miracle. The unfortunate thing is that so many have no idea how to use it properly. Too many people use it only to reinforce previously held beliefs.
Information should be used to constantly challenge what you believe.

For political viewpoints, I read the Weekly Standard as often I read the Daily Kos, I read the Huffington Post as often I read Red State.

My most viewed websites are in no particular order:
Politico
Fark (for fun)
RealClearPolitics
Drudge
FivethirtyEight (not so much now)

I've always read really fast and I read about 4 or 5 books a month on different stuff. I can read and process information quickly. Like I said, I'm an info junkie.

That's definitely a good way to build an informed viewpoint. I try to do the same.

I mean, where are the counterpoint sources when it comes to union intimidation? You have to be pretty wary about a journalist telling you that something isn't happening, when just about anyone you talk to who has actually been in the situation will tell you it is.

I have a few acquaintances here who used to work at the GM plant in Atlanta. Every one of them had UAW intimidation stories. Nothing out of the extreme end of Jimmy Hoffa's playbook, but things serious enough that I can't imagine any good coming from removing secrecy from the voting.

Love how L2 has gone to stage two of internet tough and called me out ( after I replied and by editing his own post). School kids must be rough on him lately.

Me? Internet tough?
mr. OMGBOMB THEM UNTIL THEY RELENT?

Seriously.. here comes stage two of me putting my foot up your retarded ass. Hows that for internet tough?

I didn't get my info from Hoffa,
You would have to have actual information in that case.

it's fairly common knowledge. I did grow up in two seperate homes. My Dad, who was anti Union, and my Mom's who's new Husband is very pro Union. I've heard all the arguments and there's no way a green kid like yourself is going to convince me that thar book learning that was shoved up your self righteous ass is greater than the 20 years of debates and arguements from both sides.

I lived in the Auto belt junior...you ever witness a real hardcore strike? See the damage to your Father's truck because my Dad refused to honor the strike. See he had too many kids to feed and too much pride to strike over a few bucks. Damage caused by the same guys he worked beside before he rose up off the floor.

I call bullshit. Everytime some topic comes up you have some pulled out of your ass story that you lived through.
When? Where did your dad work? What was the conflict? All of this is easily checked. Details or STFU.

Green Kid like me? .

I've done more than you have Goober. I worked 6 years in a prison and I can tell you I saw more real life in one fucking night shift than you have in all the time youve been buttfucking armadillos in Utah, or whatever armpit you dwell at.
I grew up and work in post industrial towns with blue collar parents and friends and probably sat with more different kinds of people at lunch in one day than you've known.

"Book learning"?, you ignorant piece of whiskey tango. I can tell you this, Ive seen friends die from ignorance, Ive seen lives ruined from it and rebuilt by learning. Ive lived a life tough enough and seen enough shit that I realize that the one thing that can truly make a persons life better is knowledge. I learned that lesson and because of it became a teacher.
I had inner city kids in my lowest level class arguing the other day about which Renaissance painter they liked the best. A serious argument. Some liked Raphael while others liked Da Vinci. What the fuck did you do with your day?

You ever see a non union shops working conditions?
Yea.. I worked in a metal treatment shop that serviced Pratt and Whitney for about a year. Id have chemical burns on my legs and arms some days coming home working for shit pay in shit conditions.


No, you haven't...instead you believe everything you read and then dare to preach from your white picket fence about How you know all be all.
You dont know shit about me or my life. Shut the fuck up. You arent unique or special. You are a charcature of yourself and an image of what you wish you were.

Now you just preach the party line and think that lil article you linked was solid proof of your side of the story. Reread it jackass, it's very obviously biased , maybe read it where it talks in a very negative and pro union bias about the Toyota management wanting to keep the unions out.

Which of the core facts that were contained in the article were biased? Did the author lie? When he cited the data from the Center for Automotive Research, was he misrepresenting their findings?
http://www.cargroup.org/carhome.asp
Its all checkable.
Were his conclusions scewed leftward? Sure.. but I didnt cite his conclusions. I cited his data. But guess what, when you base conclusions on actual data, thats not bias. Its called an informed opinion. I realize that concept may be as foriegn to you as "book learning", but people in the real world actually use them to great results.

Guess what, it's also the employee's......but no you're too damn full of yourself to see that. You read the first two paragraphs and quoted it as gospel.

See here is the problem with you. I don't quote facts as gospel, because unlike gospel, (or your batshit crazy world view), facts and data do not require unfounded belief.

You are complete bullshit.

How fucking dare you. You don't have any experience that puts you over anyone else.

No.. dude, I alerted you to the fact that he is not a columnist as you stated.. but a person that was running for office when he wrote that.
Do you not see that makes an important distinction when considering the source?




The elections were over on November 4th, and the opinion piece was published in the Pioneer Press on the 23rd. I don't have his phone number, so I cannot call to ask if he wrote it before or after the votes were tallied on his race. But what the fuck does that have to do with the quoted poll? I said he quoted a poll in his column, which we can call an opinion piece if it makes you feel better, and I shared that. Would the quote mean something different if a Democrat had cited it?

You are arguing over silly shit. I thought you were above this crap. Dude.

You are right.. it really isnt that big of a deal.

But the problem is he never cites the source of the poll. Not that its a big deal, because the poll itself isn't that big a part of your larger point.

I know you have legitimate reasons to be pissed off at all of this, and it isnt my intention to attack or go after you in an unfair way. I just want people to have good information from which to be pissed off about =)

In summary:

Me? Internet tough?
mr. OMGBOMB THEM UNTIL THEY RELENT?

I call bullshit. Everytime some topic comes up you have some pulled out of your ass story that you lived through

youve been buttfucking armadillos in Utah, or whatever armpit you dwell at.

What the fuck did you do with your day?

You are a charcature of yourself and an image of what you wish you were.

I realize that concept may be as foriegn to you as "book learning"

See here is the problem with you. I don't quote facts as gospel, because unlike gospel, (or your batshit crazy world view), facts and data do not require unfounded belief.

You are complete bullshit.

How fucking dare you. You don't have any experience that puts you over anyone else.


Now that is some Internet tough!

You are right.. it really isnt that big of a deal.

But the problem is he never cites the source of the poll. Not that its a big deal, because the poll itself isn't that big a part of your larger point.

I know you have legitimate reasons to be pissed off at all of this, and it isnt my intention to attack or go after you in an unfair way. I just want people to have good information from which to be pissed off about =)


Unions piss me off to no end.......

I spent half an hour this morning wasting time listening to our Union local President go on about BS, taking time away from me being able to get my work done. But, I also realize that without the union and negotiated contracts and the availability of binding arbitration, I would be making less than half of the salary and benefits I currently enjoy.

And, I also am fully aware of the pressure put on people that choose not to belong, and the name calling and singling out for "abuse", etc.

Greed and piss-poor management are a large part of the economic crisis we are experiencing; greed and piss-poor foresight on the part of unions are also at fault. But without the unions, those greedy folks at the top would have only stuffed their pockets more, and we would still be in this mess.

/shrug

I am 56 with 23 years on the job.....my retirement is pretty much a guarantee, as I already qualify with my retirement eligibility date coming last summer. I have sympathy for those younger folks fresh into their careers.

And, this post most likely contributed nothing to the thread, but I am tired, and have had enough things happen today to piss me off job-wise that I don't care. :(

Me? Internet tough?
mr. OMGBOMB THEM UNTIL THEY RELENT?

Seriously.. here comes stage two of me putting my foot up your retarded ass. Hows that for internet tough?


You would have to have actual information in that case.



I call bullshit. Everytime some topic comes up you have some pulled out of your ass story that you lived through.
When? Where did your dad work? What was the conflict? All of this is easily checked. Details or STFU.

Green Kid like me? .

I've done more than you have Goober. I worked 6 years in a prison and I can tell you I saw more real life in one fucking night shift than you have in all the time youve been buttfucking armadillos in Utah, or whatever armpit you dwell at.
I grew up and work in post industrial towns with blue collar parents and friends and probably sat with more different kinds of people at lunch in one day than you've known.

"Book learning"?, you ignorant piece of whiskey tango. I can tell you this, Ive seen friends die from ignorance, Ive seen lives ruined from it and rebuilt by learning. Ive lived a life tough enough and seen enough shit that I realize that the one thing that can truly make a persons life better is knowledge. I learned that lesson and because of it became a teacher.
I had inner city kids in my lowest level class arguing the other day about which Renaissance painter they liked the best. A serious argument. Some liked Raphael while others liked Da Vinci. What the fuck did you do with your day?


Yea.. I worked in a metal treatment shop that serviced Pratt and Whitney for about a year. Id have chemical burns on my legs and arms some days coming home working for shit pay in shit conditions.



You dont know shit about me or my life. Shut the fuck up. You arent unique or special. You are a charcature of yourself and an image of what you wish you were.



Which of the core facts that were contained in the article were biased? Did the author lie? When he cited the data from the Center for Automotive Research, was he misrepresenting their findings?
http://www.cargroup.org/carhome.asp
Its all checkable.
Were his conclusions scewed leftward? Sure.. but I didnt cite his conclusions. I cited his data. But guess what, when you base conclusions on actual data, thats not bias. Its called an informed opinion. I realize that concept may be as foriegn to you as "book learning", but people in the real world actually use them to great results.



See here is the problem with you. I don't quote facts as gospel, because unlike gospel, (or your batshit crazy world view), facts and data do not require unfounded belief.

You are complete bullshit.

How fucking dare you. You don't have any experience that puts you over anyone else.

Listen son, you are now playing some sort of victim after you've been going on a tear talking down to folks...teacher. You are now the classical far left democrat who lives by being a victim. Yes poor you, you didn't come after me time and again so I must be wrong to put you back in your place.

You're fucking article was very biased, you blew that shit son. Grow up and move on.

So shut the fuck up or put up. Some of us live life instead of reading it or having it told to us during our "this is how you will think" sessions.

You used to have your own mind, you are now a piece of fluff with no more words than those you swallow from the internet.

My Dad just retired from Guide Lamp in Anderson Indiana. The strikes were during the 70's.

You're lost son, and very obviously jealous that you have yet to live. Yes I have alot of stories, because I LIVED MY OWN LIFE INSTEAD OF LIVING VICARIOUSLY THROUGH OTHERS.....what a joke you've become.

As for bomb them till they relent. I know it's above you to be able to form cognitive thought on your own but...

That statement means one thing....if you go to war go to damn war and quit playing to the bleeding hart pussies , such as you've become , in the press and such .....don't try this win their hearts and minds bullshit.

War is ugly, it should scar the soul and make everyone afraid to use it. But by gods if you go to war do it....

Don't let such as your ilk drag this country down into yet another Vietnam, Iraq etc etc. You lack the stones to serve, you lack the stones to live and jesus man you lack the wisdom to realize experience means as much as education if not more. I never said I was better than you, I'm just tired of you acting like 4 years of sitting on your ass in college > than anyone else. You don't have anything but books junior...sorry.

Now shut up and go back to handing out the big crayons to your kids eh?

Why is it you think you have to "win" every thread on these boards Fandros?

The Real Life Issues threads are SUPPOSED to be for discussions and debates. It seems like every thread you have a vested interest in you end up "getting into it" with another poster and the conversation degrades into mudslinging, many times across posts.

Have you noticed a steady decline in the number of discussions taking place here at Aro over the last few months? My take is that peeps are shying away from posting in fear that they may come at odds with your black and white type of thinking and your bull dog demeanour when spouting out your visceral.

Seriously, take a break from these boards for a week. I can feel your blood pressure peeking through every rant filled post you make on these boards. Your face must be red half the time you are typing messages for this board. It's not healthy dude.

Cheers,

Has anyone noticed the food network changed its website design?

Yes, and Paula's Pumpkin Bars look good, although I had hoped they were Gingerbread instead, I like the 'cakey' variety... ;)

I watch the food channel for Giada; you mean there is other stuff on there?