Word (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001218842) from on high is that the photos depict some pretty nasty stuff.
"U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld revealed Friday that videos and 'a lot more pictures' exist of the abuse of Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib prison.

"'If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse,' Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee. 'I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.'
Additionally, several soldiers have come (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/28/international/middleeast/28abuse.html?ex=1285560000&en=b491d7a297b7247e&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss) forward (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html), describing abuses conducted by members of the 82nd Airborne:
Captain Fishback, speaking publicly on the matter for first time, said the investigators who have questioned him in the past 10 days seemed to be less interested in individuals he identified in his chain of command who allegedly committed the abuses. "I'm convinced this is going in a direction that's not consistent with why we came forward," Captain Fishback said in a telephone interview from Fort Bragg, N.C., where he is going through Army Special Forces training. "We came forward because of the larger issue that prisoner abuse is systemic in the Army. I'm concerned this will take a new twist, and they'll try to scapegoat some of the younger soldiers. This is a leadership problem."

In separate statements to the human rights organization, Captain Fishback and the two sergeants described abuses by soldiers in the 82nd Airborne Division, including beatings of Iraqi prisoners, exposing them to extremes of hot and cold, stacking prisoners in human pyramids, and depriving them of sleep at Camp Mercury, a forward operating base near Falluja. The abuses reportedly took place between September 2003 and April 2004, before and during the abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.
From the Time article:
"On their day off people would show up all the time," the sergeant continues in the HRW report. "Everyone in camp knew if you wanted to work out your frustration you show up at the PUC tent. In a way it was sport. The cooks were all U.S. soldiers. One day a sergeant shows up and tells a PUC to grab a pole. He told him to bend over and broke the guy's leg with a mini Louisville Slugger that was a metal bat. He was the cook."


This is what the judge in the case argued, in his decision to force the Bush administration to respond to the ACLU's FOIA request:
[I]n his 50-page ruling, the judge said: "My task is not to defer to our worst fears, but to interpret and apply the law, in this case, the Freedom of Information Act, which advances values important to our society, transparency and accountability in government.

"Our struggle to prevail must be without sacrificing the transparency and accountability of government and military officials," he added.
Agree? Disagree? Comments?

Unless there is something totally shocking I still do not understand how that is torture. Humiliating damn right, but not torture.

A cook coming in on his day off to take out his frustrations on a prisoner's leg is clearly abuse, torture, whatever you want to call it.

The Geneva Convention is very clear on whether or not that's okay.

Heres an idea. Why don't we release the footage simultaneously with footage and pictures of the Fallujah Four (American civilians beheaded and bodies desecrated).

and depriving them of sleep at Camp Mercury,
Btw, sleep deprivation is a perfectly legal (under the Geneva Convention) form of interrogation.

I think that, as distasteful and potentially risky as they are, the pictures need to be released. Transparency and accountability is what separates us from tyrannies. The people who hate us will hate us no less if these pictures are not released, and the images, and the behavior, need to be exposed so that the widespread abuses that occurred here (particularly non-interrogators coming in to 'let off some steam' on prisoners) are brought to light, the officers in charge are brought to task for them, and they aren't permitted to happen again (at least for a while).

Regards,
Nydia

The cook committed a felony assault, and no doubt will be charged and face court martial. Whether or not his commanding officer will face charges or a reprimand is another story.

It is easy to make comparisons with the way the insurgents have treated our soldiers and the Iraqis that have been targetted, and say we are justified..... but this country does not operate that way, our society and culture have always demanded that we not sink to the level of our enemy but instead maintain behavior within the laws we have enacted to govern ourselves.

We are a civilized country, which means we operate within a system of laws. The fact that we are engaged in a "war" with people who do not behave in a manner considered civilized by most people around the world does not mean we are free to do as they do.

George Bush declared war and invaded Iraq......doing so, he has bound himself and this country to abide by the conventions of war that have been agreed to and signed off on by most major powers. Once we cease following the rules and laws previously agreed to, we can begin the march down the same slope as those civilizations before us that also fell into decline, and disappeared.

I take pride in my country because of the leadership we have shown over the course of our history. We now have another opportunity to lead.

Yeah Saragon, torturing your enemies because they do the same is a good way to show people you're better than em...

Trust me, this is one of those rocks better left unturned. Those responsible have been/will be punished

unless they are an officer, then they'll make someone else the scapegoat.

Yeah Saragon, torturing your enemies because they do the same is a good way to show people you're better than em...

Hmm, never said it was a way to show them we're better. How quick we all are to forget about the atrocities commited by the Iraqi's as well. Afterall, they are just a bunch of robed turban wearing peace loving people dancing in fields of dandelions in the minds of media biased spoon-fed liberals while we are the tyrants who just want oil and someones ass to kick, right?

If they were really serious about dealing with the situation they would hav started with the General Janis Karpinski and went on down the line frying everyone involved not just a few enlisted scapegoats. Simple as that.

No need to release them. Just bring the appropriate people to justice. 'Nuff said. We dont' need the world to have another reason to hate us cause a couple of people decided it would be fun to be cruel to helpless human beings.

It has nothing to do with whether the Iraqis treat our soldiers poorly or not. There are laws of war that the United States has supposedly agreed too. I agree, sleep deprivation isn't torture, but a valid interrogation technique. Hitting someone in the leg and breaking it with a baseball bat to relieve agression is NOT a valid interrogation technique and by definition IS torture. Just because a portion of the Iraqi (and foreign born terrorist) population in Iraq treats us like shit, it gives us no right to torture people.

Though I don't think we should release all the pictures/videos, it will just lead to more terrorism against the United States. I do feel we need to court martial everyone who was involved in this, not just a few scapegoats that are enlisted men and women instead of the officers that encouraged and allowed (and I would venture to say in some cases, participated) this stuff to happen. There are many extreme interrogation techniques that are allowed by the Geneva Convention, there is no reason that our military should be condoning torture of any kind, whether it be in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Guantanimo Bay, or whereever else in the world our troops happened to be stationed at any given time.

No need to release them. Just bring the appropriate people to justice. 'Nuff said. We dont' need the world to have another reason to hate us cause a couple of people decided it would be fun to be cruel to helpless human beings.


I agree. Why we seem to feel the need to air our dirty laundry to the world amazes me. Dole out the justice, make sure it doesn't happen again, but don't bother with the pics. They will just bring more drama

Releasing the photos will probably lead to deaths of more soldiers.. more car bombs, terrorist attacks, etc. We all know the news loves that.

Noble words but the media are ruthless and sex sells. I agree though we don't need to make this crap public enough is enough punish the guilty and be done with it. I'd rather be spared seeing censored photos all over newspapers, magazines, and the TV for the next 3 months. ugh.

Completely sick of the media. The world already knows what happened, keep punishing those involved and get on with it. Anyone who thinks it needs to be aired should be accountable for what happens afterwards.

Devil's Advocate time:
I agree. Why we seem to feel the need to air our dirty laundry to the world amazes me.
In this case, our dirty laundry impacts people in "the world," specifically those who suffered at the hands of rotten apples/military intelligence/Defense officials/take your pick.
Releasing the photos will probably lead to deaths of more soldiers.. more car bombs, terrorist attacks, etc.
This is happening anyway and will continue to happen as long as we are in Iraq. I recently read General Casey stating that we're at 500 attacks per week. Would release of the pictures increase those numbers? Perhaps, but I don't know that we could distinguish such an increase from what is already happening over there.
The world already knows what happened, keep punishing those involved and get on with it. Anyone who thinks it needs to be aired should be accountable for what happens afterwards.
Accountability is a funny thing, especially these days where failure is rewarded, whistle-blowing punished, and cover ups routine. Also, the world (and us) don't really know what has happened, and so long as the pictures are under wraps, people will continue to deny, continue to characterize torture as "just sleep deprivation and barking dogs--big deal," and how can we have justice (which requires transparency) without true knowledge of just what our hypothetical defendants have done?

I'm split on whether the photos should be released, but I do think the judge made the right call in requiring the military to honor the FOIA request. If what Hersch has written is true, then what we know of Abu Ghraib is only the tip of the iceberg, and I dislike cover ups, especially if it lets the true instigators of this behavior (those up the chain of command) avoid the due punishment posters in this thread rightfully demand.

In related news (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050928/us_nm/iraq_usa_photos_dc), the Army has canceled its investigation into the "death photos for porn" web site.

Kinda of along with what Thormir started, but my question would be what if the public sees the photos? What can we do about it? Public outrage? Pissed off at the chain of command? What would these things accomplish? It would just slow down the process. I think you need to trust in the system (to an extent) and just let the people who can punish the guilty ones punish them.

We see/hear of all kinds of atrocities in the US everyday, do we all need to see those pictures? Nope, we trust in the system to bring them to justice, why can't we do that here? We know according to Rumsfled that the pictures are 'hard to believe', and one would think that he has viewed the intial pics which started this whole thing. Would it make a difference if Joe Public verified the pictures were worse than what has been previously released? Or does the Joe Public want to see what depraved acts a few demented human beings dressed in US military garb did to other human beings and then cry foul. Just prosecute the people and move on. Call it a lack in judgement and make 'em do the time they deserve.

Yes yes I know, sometimes the system is flawed, it's not perfect 100% of time, but I'm not aware of any system that has a 100% perfect rating.

I think it will be beneficial in the long run if a big stink is made about it. It's way too easy to brush things under the table if you don't get called out publicly when something this bad happens.

What I absolutely detest though is that it gets turned into a partisan political issue. To me, using it as political leverage is every bit as bad as the initial crime, if not worse.

Trust me, this is one of those rocks better left unturned. Those responsible have been/will be punished
I've not read about any of that, except for a few low-ranking enlisted persons. If a General can be relieved of command for having affairs, then tourture should be a no brainer (if it can be proven that they knew about what was going on- they very well might not have, though that is unlikely).
what if the public sees the photos?... Nope, we trust in the system to bring them to justice, why can't we do that here?
Because the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Things have a way of getting bogged down with no action taken if they aren't in the front of people's minds (and in the headlines).

You mean like the problems with ethic cleansing in Africa at the moment (we see it and know about it but nothing is done about it other than more people die). Its eye candy for the public and media and nothing more. People will die and then an actress will have a baby and well hear about that. Whats the point of the public seeing pictures? I don't get it but hey what ever makes your wheel spin. I am hoping it turns out to be more like the New Orleans findings...Media 100's dead in the Super Dome rapes, murders, ect.... Actually 6 dead.

Fuck the media.

This isn't about squeeky wheels. This is about handling our business somewhere other than BEHIND closed doors. We might still do our executions at midnight, but we do our trials in public.

The judge made the correct call in saying they must be released in accordance with the FOIA; that was the issue before him, not whether they should be shown by the media, but whether people had the right to see them.

I would rather not have another public display of the acts of a few bad apples, but I would also like to have the integrity of our military and political system honored and protected and that requires matters be dealt with openly.

For most of us, when we are on the clock we would not consider stopping work to go have a beer, or an early lunch, or go shopping, because we know that there are set boundaries on what is acceptable in our work environment. Whoever was in charge of those troops allowed an environment to develop that allowed for the behaviors now being called into question, and without open public scrutiny there will be little chance of accountability.

I am still upset after all these years about the shadow cast on my character by the actions of Lt Calley and his men at My Lai, but I would have been even more disgusted had that been swept under the carpet and not dealt with openly. I would hope today's soldiers have the same attitude that the bad ones among them must be dealt with so that they are not all tainted by these actions. Those officers and intelligence officials that sanction this behavior dishonor all the rest of the troops fighting over there, and are solely responsible for the increased peril they have placed men in because of these methods of prisoner treatment.

Its not the medias job to cover for the government.

The medias job is to expose as much and bring to light as much information as possible.

Transparency is good thing.

Ibudin, where do you get your news from again if not the media?

As sensationalized as it is, your knowledge of life wouldn't extend far beyond your own closet if it wasn't for the news and media outlets of the world.

These outlets make their money and pay their salaries because people like and encourage the drama. If you don't like it, start tuning into the more alternative media ... but saying fuck the media is like faulting McDonalds for making someone fat -- they simply are doing exactly what they can to stay competitive and to cater to their audience. If they stopped the sensationalism, they'd go out of business.

*edit* just read what Bylimet wrote -- really fucking insightful and I couldn't agree more.

I am hoping it turns out to be more like the New Orleans findings...Media 100's dead in the Super Dome rapes, murders, ect.... Actually 6 dead.

Fuck the media.Frankly, short of having actually been there in LA at the time, I doubt anyone will ever really piece together what really happened. There were so many attempts by official agencies to talk things up, followed by efforts by other groups to talk things down, all contrasted against unofficial web blogs and internet message board postings that it's hard to tell fact from fiction anymore, and it's unlikely that we'll ever really know (as a group outside of direct contact) what happened in places like the Superdome.

In the same manner, we'll never really know what happened in Abu Ghraib unless someone releases 100% surveillance video. Lower ranks will take the fall, a few officers will be offered as sacrifices, some stories will be exaggerated, others toned down. The only ones who will know for certain how bad things got will be those at the heart of it, and you can bet the true story will never hit our ears.

As a matter of principle the pictures should be released. In the fantasy world inside my head I like to believe the media would be smart enough to treat them respectfully and only show what was necessary to carry out the story.

The photo's should not be released.. period. They are nothing more then fuel to be thown on a already hot fire. Each one of the people that were involved, both enlist and officers should be convicted if found guilty. If it is true that they used baseball bats on individuals.. then by all means convict. There is a line when it comes to interrogation, and beating someone is beyond that line. I have zero issues with barking dogs, or sleep dep, but breaking legs is a tad bit too far. Once before, I argued that there was not any serious torture going on... if this is proven wrong, then I will eat crow and watch with enjoyment when these soldiers get convicted. We do set the standard on the rules of conventional warfare, and this is unacceptable.

As for the poor enlisted scapegoats... there are a couple things to consider. There was a General that has taken the fall. Last I checked.. she was DEFINATLY not enlisted. There actually has been a few officers that have taken the hit, so stop making statements that only the enlisted are scapegoats. In addition, there is the responsibility of the enlisted. They are entitled and EXPECTED not to follow UNLAWFUL orders. Most of these enlisted that have been convicted took it upon themselves to commit these acts. So to say they are scapegoats is a joke.

Once before, I argued that there was not any serious torture going on... if this is proven wrong, then I will eat crow and watch with enjoyment when these soldiers get convicted. We do set the standard on the rules of conventional warfare, and this is unacceptable.
Heh, I showed you how this was wrong months ago. People have died (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201941.html) from torture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_abuse) -- over 100 by one estimate.
There was a General that has taken the fall. Last I checked.. she was DEFINATLY not enlisted.
What exactly does "taken the fall" mean in this case? I know who you're talking about, but don't recall a specific punishment, nothing on the order of a court martial at any rate (though that would be a welcome change).