Think Americans are simply the "new" management of the tortures at Abu Ghraib? Ted Kennedy certainly does. "Shamefully, we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management — U.S. management," Mr. Kennedy asserted.

Maybe he should watch this video:

www.aei.org/events/eventID.844,filter.all/event_detail.asp (http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.844,filter.all/event_detail.asp)

Warning: supposedly extremely graphic (I have not been able to watch most of it).

Shamefully, we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management — U.S. management


Shamefully, we now learn that Chappaquiddick's YMCA swimming lessons program reopened under new management — Ted Kennedy Management.

At least my criticism is accurate.

You know, that Kennedy stuff is just not funny anymore.

It was amusing the first few times, but the fact is - Kennedy can swim, it is why he lived. What he can't do is drive drunk. Get your facts straight.

"We do not imitate--for we are a model to others."
-Pericles

Think about that quote. Just take a second.

If you start trying to justify or downplay the inherant immorality of what went on in Abu Ghraib, what you then have done is a great injustice to the core ideals of America.

Instead of holding a lofty standard, you throw that down and take a baseline and measure yourself not against your ideals, but against the greatest evil.

Think about the implications of that. You kill idealism.
Now, anything becomes morally acceptable because you have set the lowest possible act and measured your actions against them. From that perspective you look damn good.

But its an illusion. It is not who we are. We have to measure what went on at Abu Ghraib by our men by the standards of the nation we built, Of the words of Thomas Jefferson, not the orders of Saddam Hussein.

We hold ourselves to a different standard, and just as no act of terrorist will ever be allowed to change who we are as a people, nor will the actions of a murderous despot cause us to forget our principles in the name of politcal expedience by instead of striving for an ideal, to shrug, accept a classic Moral relativism and say "But we arent as bad as they are."

How low are we to set our standards?

Ya maybe we should just gloat over what happened, blame the entire US not just the military, pull our troops home and say fuck it then hey L2?

This massive attrocity negates any good the american people have tried to bring to this country. Game over we loose.

No one is down playing..punish the motherfuckers who did this and move on or throw in the towel.

The people responsible have been in the military justice system for what they did for over a year, and had been for months before the whole political bullshit came into it.

And Talid, it's not meant to be funny. Teddy Kennedy lecturing -anyone- on ethics is ludicrous.

Fuck's sake, the man thought he was going to get pulled over for drunk driving so he guns it down a road and off of a bridge, then saves himself by swimming free of the car but doesn't report what happened(preventing ANY sort of rescue attempt) for almost 10 hours to(again) avoid a drunk driving charge on his record(he even had an expired license at the time).

This is the scenario the investigating officer(Detective Bernie Flynn) put together for what happened:


"I figure,we've got a drunk driver, Ted Kennedy. He's with this girl, and he has it in his mind to go down to the beach and make love to her. He's probably driving too fast and he misses the curve and goes into Cemetery Road. He's backing up when he sees this guy in uniform coming toward him. That's panic for the average driver who's been drinking; but here's a United States Senator about to get tagged for driving under. He doesn't want to get caught with a girl in his car, on a deserted road late at night, with no license and driving drunk on top of it. In his mind, the most important thing is to get away from the situation.
- He doesn't wait around. He takes off down the road. He's probably looking in the rear-view mirror to see if the cop is following him. He doesn't even see the f---ing bridge and bingo! He goes off. He gets out of the car; she doesn't. The poor son of a bitch doesn't know what to do. He's thinking: "I want to get back to my house, to my friends" - which is a common reaction.

- There are houses on Dike Road he could have gone to report the accident, but he doesn't want to. Because it's the same situation he was trying to get away from at the corner - which turned out to be minor compared to what happened later. Now there's been an accident; and the girl's probably dead. All the more reason not to go banging on somebody's door in the middle of the night and admit what he was doing. He doesn't want to reveal himself."

"And the funny part about it was, 'Huck' was only trying to give his directions."

Ok,
So by the rule of Moral Equivilancy. Ted Kennedy is the lowest form of moral being. He drove drunk, and by doing so caused the death of another person.
So wheres that put
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art/bushdui1.gif

Bad... but still not as bad as Ted Kennedy?
Bush can claim.. "Ya, I drove drunk, but Nobody died!"
Now we can actually turn his drunk driving into a POSITIVE thing. A badge of honor!
"Golly, that Bush, he can really handle a car when tanked, unlike that damn liberal Ted Kennedy."

Oh,
And can we stop this charade of "A few loose cannons" acting independantly.
The fish rots from the head down.

www.abc.net.au/news/newsi...137852.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200406/s1137852.htm)

There's a rather large difference between getting a dui, and not wanting a dui and racing to get away from it which results in the death of someone.

Did you know that the diver that went in discovered there had been an air pocket, and that Kopechne had probably lived a couple of hours in the submerged car? If Kennedy had gone to the cops right when it happened(there is a house like 100ft up the road from the bridge) she could have been pulled out alive. It took 30 minutes for the diver to get geared up and get there in the morning when he was called about it, he would have been there with time to spare.

To top it all off Kennedy tried to whitewash everything, and lied to the police. His cousin talks about how he wanted to tell the police that she was driving by herself and he wasn't around when it happened.

Yes, Ted Kennedy is the lowest form of moral being. He was guilty of manslaughter at the very least(well manslaughter and leaving the scene of an accident, expired license, dui, interfering with an investigation..the list goes on).

..and the point is?

Get mad at people who live in Massachusetts. I dont give a fuck what Kennedy says. The 3 brothers worth a damn are dead, yes, Kennedy is a useless turd living off his family name... and?

Doesnt make what Bush did ok.

You two have lost the fucking plot with this entire election liberal/conservative thing.

Seriously, both of you, shut up.

You're actually arguing about who is the most evil drunk driver.

SHUT UP!

Listen, Bush has zero to do with this. You can have a hard on for him all you want but this is about a man who KILLED a woman because he wanted to keep his job and his image lecturing others on ethics.

As always L2, you missed the point. Having Kennedy compare Bush to Saddam in this manner doesn't do jack shit for the Abu Ghraib prison fiasco, it just shows he's a complete fucking moron.

Even so, far more damaging in the long run - it directly belittles the real TORTURE that Saddam committed on an hourly basis during his 30-year reign. Making prisoners wear panties? Who fucking cares. No way can that compare in the remotest to watching your mom pushed into a meat grinder feet first.

Get a fucking clue.

'Making prisoners wear panties? Who fucking cares'

- Wasn't a man stripped naked, hooded, made to stand on a box with wires connected to his body - including his genitalia - and told if he moves he'd be electrocuted?
And weren't 10 or so people killed during other interrogations?

Just because there were cases of twisted Americans sexually abusing prisoners, it doesn't mean that's what it all was, mate.

It seems the American prison guards got their jolly's off in more ways than one.

And weren't 10 or so people killed during other interrogations?

We're prosecuting the assholes too. But of course you don't see the difference, because you're a stupid jackass with blinders on.

See the difference between... prosecutions, and executions?

Not the American Way, newp.

You can't excuse what went on in those prisons (I'm Canadian, it's only 10+ years later we're finally getting over what happened in Somolia with regard to the mistreatment and beating of prisoners). Any of you that would make excuses for these people really need to get a morality check.

At the same time, you can't blame the entire US forces either. It was a small group of people (relative to the entire forces located in Iraq) that did this, don't tar and feather an entire organization. That's what they did with us, and the Airborne Regiment got disbanded for it. Those were VERY dark times, an entire unit punished for the actions of a small group.

The whole Michael Moore comment.........well, he's the "Love'em or hate'em" type of guy. Personally, I find that he backs up his statements with facts. I've never read a piece of literatue and had not been able to investigate where he came up with such a statement. It's all about credibility. You might not like Michael Moore, but one thing you can't take away from him, he does his homework. I guess the truth is just hard to take sometimes.

you know what is scary all the same silly things they made the pow's do is what happens in normal us prisions.

For good and ill, the Iraqi prisoner abuse mess will remain an issue. On the one hand, right thinking Americans will abhor the stupidity of the actions while on the other hand, political glee will take control and fashion this minor event into some modern day My Lai massacre.
I heard some Arabs and Muslims are asking for an apology. I humbly offer mine here:

I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims (Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, etc.).

I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11. I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs.

I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships.

I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth.

I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious schools, mosques, and government-controlled media.

I am sorry that Yasir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and highjacked the Palestinian "cause".

I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.

I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA for all their problems.

I am sorry that our own left wing elite, our media, and our own brainwashed (from elements of our society like radical professors, CNN and the NY TIMES) masses do not understand any of this.

I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.

I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death.

I am sorry that those same bombers are brainwashed thinking they will receive 72 virgins in "paradise."

I am sorry that the homicide bombers think pregnant women, babies, children, the elderly and other non-combatant civilians are legitimate targets.

I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape rooms and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making.

I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group.

I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.

I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah.

I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site".

I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church - one of our Holy Sites.

I am sorry they didn't apologize for flight 93 and 175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, the murders and beheadings of Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl, etc....etc!

I am sorry Michael Moore is American; he could feed a medium sized village in Africa.

America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those responsible because that is what we do. We hang out our dirty laundry for all the world to see. We move on. That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.

Deep down inside, when most Americans saw this reported in the news, we were like - so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners.

Sure, it was wrong, sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but until captured we were trying to kill these same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated? Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burnt amongst a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujans.

If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait. You have a better chance of finding those 72 virgins.

Sure, it was wrong, sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but until captured we were trying to kill these same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated? Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burnt amongst a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujans.
Once again we can measure ourselves and our actions by the lowest common denominator or the highest. Apparently, Akipt thinks, as long as someone did something just a little worse we are okay doing anything we want.

Interestingly enough, this article begs the question WHY did we do all these things? If it was truly to help someone else then how can we use it as moral ground for torturing those same people. If it was totally self serving then we cant bitch about what we lost cause it was our fault.

I didn't know that Michael Moore and the word 'fact' could go together in the same paragraph. Just call me a Bushite I guess, *shrug*.

Bush announced today that everything he has ever said was "probably wrong" and saw massive gains in his poll standing.

...Akipt thinks, as long as someone did something just a little worse we are okay doing anything we want.


Your lack of context and seriously flawed perspective is stupafiably retarded.

Oh, and you managed to libel me in the process. Double the points for you!

This might sound a bit cold, but... as far as what was committed in the prisons, my opinion is that they were pretty bad, and rather unacceptable, but the actual morality of the issue isn't nearly as important as the perceived morality of the issue. There's a whole boatload of worse things that happen every day that no one gives a shit about, so what's really so important about what happened in Abu Ghraib?

Simple: it can be attached to America in an effort to bring about some pretty negative connotations. It's the perfect material an Islamic radical needs to show to his subordinates to rally their support, and piss them off badly enough to do something like fly a plane into a large building full of people. It's also a pretty good piece of propaganda if you want to get the U.N.'s panties in a bunch.

Right is right, wrong is wrong, and putting any sort of veneer on actions that are clearing wrong - morally, ethically - is simple justification and shouldn't involve a +/- equation. Ya either think it's wrong, or ya think it's right - there is no in between.

But what he/she/it did was worse doesn't or shouldn't make what happened in those cells a good thing, ever. If the American people's wish was to actually try to make a difference in a country run by a dictator and change it for the better, then justifying the actions in the prisons ain't the way to go about it.

Lets flip the coin, what if this happened to American soldiers? Ya'll would be horrified. Nobody, not one single person that's prevaricated on this issue would say "but the Iraqi's had a reason cuz the US is evil".

If ya want to equate yourself with the worse that human beings can be, go ahead and find a defense for the actions that took place in the jails, and pat yourself on the back that you're not as "bad" as Sadam and co.

I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11. I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs.

I stopped after there myself.
I sort of knew the utter retarded direction the article was going in. "Who gives a shit, we could do worse".

LL had it right at

We have to measure what went on at Abu Ghraib by our men by the standards of the nation we built, Of the words of Thomas Jefferson, not the orders of Saddam Hussein.

All i heard after that was desperate bleeting.
*edit* - not all i heard (saw), but most of it, at least.

'Simple: it can be attached to America in an effort to bring about some pretty negative connotations.'

- Well no, not really.
The reason why I find it so important, I guess is the word, is that it utterly undermines Bush's entire black and white world of Axis and Evils.
The hard-lined, fall back justification of the war that Saddam did all these cruel and evil things, and thus the country needed "liberating" is utterly moot in the light of the liberators (small selection or not) going in and doing hurrendous things (perhaps not as hurrendous as what happens in American prisons, but certainly hurrendous to a devout religious state such as the Islamic world) just shows that exact point: There is no sides in this conflict. No Just Liberators or Evil Bad Guys, like Bush would have you believe.
There's just dominant powers.

The irony that a force of liberators would commit torture and sexual abuse on a populace that it was going to free from such acts pretty much defines this very war of imperialism.
The notion of replacing other regimes with pro-Western regimes is supposed to be for the Good of Mankind. When actually it's just the same old same old that's been used a million times before.
When we ruled the world, we did it under the context that these barbarian cultures needed civilized Western society, for their own good. And if they didn't want it, we'd stick a gun up their arse and MAKE them civilized.
There's an unquestionable similarity in contemporary war effort.


Those damned Iraqi's will WANT the liberation, and if they don't, we'll kill 10, 000 of them until they bloody well get it. Because we're the Good Guys, they're the Innocent Guys, and the previous regime were the Barbarious Bad Guys.
That's all there is to it. Righteo? Bloody good show chaps. Who's up next? Syria? Perisa? North Korea? Oh wait. They might put up a fight, we'll skip them. Saudi Arabia? Oh wait, wait. Silly me. They give us lots of oil.

LET'S GIVE CANADA A GOOD KICKING! HUUZAH!

The reason why I find it so important, I guess is the word, is that it utterly undermines Bush's entire black and white world of Axis and Evils.

That's Axis OF Evil.

The hard-lined, fall back justification of the war that Saddam did all these cruel and evil things, and thus the country needed "liberating" ...

Keep rewriting history if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but Bush has never waivered that we went in because he was a threat to us and our allies. Liberation and planting democracy are the solutions for that, not the reasons. When you figure that out finally, give yourself a pat on the back.

...but certainly hurrendous to a devout religious state such as the Islamic world) just shows that exact point:...

Ask Nick Berg or Paul Johnson if they'd like to have the female underwear on the head treatment.

The irony that a force of liberators would commit torture and sexual abuse on a populace that it was going to free from such acts pretty much defines this very war of imperialism.

Populace! LOL

Only in your alternate universe and revision of current events could this be irony. If we killed 300,000 Iraqis, raped their mothers and daughters, and drenched their graves with pig blood could our liberation of Iraq be an irony.

Buy a fucking clue jackass.

Lol Akipt nicely said.

Yes lets keep bring more attention to a prison in the middle of a "war zone" and turn your cheek and throw in that the heads being cut off of inocent people are just the norm. I guess the only justification is that the people who commited crimes against the prisoners will have a trial where areas the murderers will most likely be shot in the head...one can only hope.

You cling to the prison abuse BS..and Ill cling to the sight of watching those motherfuckers chop the heads off of inocent people.

But what he/she/it did was worse doesn't or shouldn't make what happened in those cells a good thing, ever.

Kaerila, I never said that, and I did not intend to say that. I was trying to explain why this situation's getting so much attention. Rereading my post, I didn't make that intention clear, so I apologize for that.

'That's Axis OF Evil.'

- *Sigh* No shit it is, Sherlock.

'Keep rewriting history if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but Bush has never waivered that we went in because he was a threat to us and our allies. Liberation and planting democracy are the solutions for that, not the reasons. When you figure that out finally, give yourself a pat on the back.'

- I thought you went in because of the WOMD? Or the Al-Qaede ties? Heh, hard to keep up with the ever-changing reasons. One runs up dry, grab another. So you went in because Saddam was.. on the brink of invading the US? Oh, righteo. In the aftermath of the invasion, we can see what a threat they posed... a terrible joke.

'Only in your alternate universe and revision of current events could this be irony. If we killed 300,000 Iraqis, raped their mothers and daughters, and drenched their graves with pig blood could our liberation of Iraq be an irony.'

- Are you attempting to make the invasion look good because it's not as bad as what a psychotic dictator achieved? I guess it's OK to kill 10, 000 people and torture a few hundred, because it's not AS bad as what a sick dictator accomplished.

Dear god, boy. I'll lend you a fucking clue for free.

Halo you have stated before this same nice round arbitrary number of 10,000 people. Can you give me some sound evidence that actually that many people have died directly from the all mighty US. I mean a bullet fired from our guns killed 10,000 Iraqis..I want to see these facts.

Not saying your wrong but at any rate I cant for the life of me ..find this total Iraqi "civilian" deaths.

10k is a somewhat accepted number used pretty often by the U.N., etc.

On the plus side, most Iraqis are still alive! (http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4025)

There was a thread a while back about it Ibudin.

Akipt (in his usual way) was prattling on about how careful the coalition had been in Iraq, and how not many had died, and if they did, it was the kamikazee terrorists, or civilians being in the way of kamikazee terrorists..

I smacked him down with about 3 or 4 different sources estimating it at about 8 - 12, 000 civilians dead.
I think as Mirdorr said, in April of this year it was taken to be about 10, 000. Probably a thousand or so more now, what with the intense May/June fighting.

Maybe one of you Neo-Cons can answer this for me.

Was listening to Hannity on the way home today. A caller brought up the news story about how the Administration pointed to a report that said that Terrorism was at an all time low. Bushes people claimed this was evidence that his policys were winning the war on Terrorism.
www.theregister.co.uk/200...m_is_down/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/03/terrorism_is_down/)
then
www.nbr.co.nz/home/column...0New%20War (http://www.nbr.co.nz/home/column_article.asp?id=9416&cid=12&cname=The%20New%20War)

But according to Hannity, that didnt make a difference, we are still winning the "War" on terrorism because of Bush.

This doesnt seem to make sense to me.
If A + B = C
If B changes doesnt C change?

So if Bushs policies are defined as a success because of declining attacks, if you reverse that doesnt that mean, by the definitations presented by the administration themselves mean that because of Bushes policies terrorism is on the RISE?
Doesnt the opposite factor create the opposite outcome?

More rambunctious frat boy fun?

www.koaa.com/news/view.asp?ID=2394 (http://www.koaa.com/news/view.asp?ID=2394)

Oh and Soledin... Good intentions mean shit. Its what you DO that counts.

Lets flip the coin, what if this happened to American soldiers?


Remember the group from Fort Bliss Kaerila?

Jessica Lynch ring a bell?

Worse happened to our PoWs at the hands of the faction these prisoners were a part of. That doesn't make it any better, but your "what if" did happen(In fact I recall learning the fates of PoW/MIA soldiers from the first gulf war being one of our goals when we went into Iraq).

Of course the topic at hand isn't "Is it right or wrong?".

It was wrong, and despite how much Halo or LLeauaric or Bowler or Kaerila wants to paint a picture of Akipt, Roliel myself or anyone else here saying it's right, NO ONE IS SAYING THAT!

Is that clear?

It is a very different to say "You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill, the people responsible are in the military justice system and will be spending time in federal prison(can you say Leavenworth?), it is being taken care of." than to say "They didn't do anything wrong!" or "They were justified because the Iraqis did worse!".

Why don't we get back to discussing the topic instead of acting out exactly what the original poster was talking about(You know, overinflating an issue that has already been handled and falsifying your opponents' position on it to make them look bad)?

I know you're not saying that, Cristo.
But when people say something as retarded as "it's not as bad as what Saddam did anyway," mocking must ensue.

Jessica Lynch ring a bell

What the fuck does the poster boy/girl for blind patriotism that was injured in a vehicle crash and rescued in what still appears to be a ridiculously exaggerated and publicised media event have to do with the US acting poorly?

Are we really at the point that we use the actions of a dictator to justify our horrible actions? You have to realize that by acknowedging that you are saying "Well being under Bush's tyranny is slightly less horrible than Saddam's."

Now we see memos that show Bush's desire to have the power of torture at his finger tips but still the sheep are following.

Bow to Leper Messiah.

What the fuck does the poster boy/girl for blind patriotism that was injured in a vehicle crash

You sure as hell didnt take in the whole story did you Bowler. Fuck you for trying to degrade her and her comrades that died in the battle she was captured in.

Fuck you and anyone else that's trying to play down these tortures, then.

Well Bowler, if you could become literate for a moment and read the fuckin thread you might have noticed Kaerila's post. Actually I don't even think you needed to read that as my post pretty much gives her point when I respond to it.

Oh, and what we are seeing are memos from a low ranking lawyer attached to the Whitehouse, I still haven't seen anything with "From the Desk of Dubya" on it, or anyone beyond low level staffers who appeared to have taken it upon themselves to write those memos. I've watched it pretty closely and I've yet to see where they were told to work on this.

Some of the Memos were signed by Rumsfeld.
While some of the more severe methods that were suggested , like water torture, were eventually rejected by Rummy, he did endorse the use of Standing in a set position for as long as 20 hours...

While in itself that doesnt seem bad, think for a second of the repercussions
If it is legal to force a prisoner to stand, the failure to do so would constitute a legitmate reason to enter the use of force matrix, whereas physical force can be utilized to the extent to enforce set rules. For example, a Prisoner who after 3 hours decided he had enough and sat down, would be subject to "force necessary to acheive compliance". The officer can legitmatly exercise and escalate force until the prisoner obeys the officer. Pepper spray, baton strikes, pain compliance holds, dogs...

Pepper spray, baton strikes, pain compliance holds, dogs...

CONTEXT CHECK - Unless those things are seen as illegal as well. Those memos were just the bounds of what was legal and what was not.

That's what those lawyers were paid to do... look at the law, interpret it, and report it back to their supervisors...
"Is it torture to make someone strip down naked..." "Is it torture to make them stand for twenty hours..." questions like this. It did not authorize those same acts.

LOL Ibudin ... fuck me for saying the story was trumped up? Fuck you for being a propaganda believing bone head. She is the hero of the year ... lol she was a POW and survived, fuck you for placing her above the many that died. Fuck you for not having the sense that God gave you. O and where did I attack her personally? Fuck you for assuming. Fuck you for telling me what is truth and what I think. Nothing you accused me of is in my post.

Well Bowler, if you could become literate for a moment and read the fuckin thread you might have noticed Kaerila's post. Actually I don't even think you needed to read that as my post pretty much gives her point when I respond to it.

Bringing her up was a ridiculous association. Halo pretty much summed up the point. If what happened to her wasn't sensationalized by the media, the same media you blast for sensationalizing the tortures, you wouldn't have a super hero to cling to. She didn't do anything wrong. Neither was I blasting her personally. Thanks for being literate and understanding that my point was, your hypocrisy.

The original memos were "retracted" by the Justice Department. Why did they do that I wonder? Why would Bush reserve the right to use torture over 2 years ago?

lol she was a POW and survived

You say that like its some small feat. Go to hell.

That girl was doing the exact same job in the exact same area during the time my neice was over there in the same vicinity..a 19 year old girl. You take a look around lately at a 19 year old girl (of course not). Had nothing to do with propaganda was an interesting story and god forbid she made it home alive.

Ibudin

CONTEXT CHECK - Unless those things are seen as illegal as well.

The point is the situation is set up where it is inevitable.
This is a classic case for people who work in prisons.

What guards used to do in the 60s was ask a prisoner to do something they could not possibly do, such as lock a prisoners cell door at the designated time for them to have returned to it.
Because the prisoner was in violation of an order it gave an otherwise justifiable reason to use force on the prisoner.

When the reports were written, the guards could all say that Prisoner X was beaten with with club because he refused to enter his cell upon direct command.
This is the situation this sets up.

Stand up

"I can't, my feet hurt"

You will stand according to orders or I will be forced to use my baton on you until you reach a state of compliance.

"Im not able to stand"

>Whack<

Stand, either stand or come to this room to answer some questions.

Bringing her up was a ridiculous association


You are a moron. Once more, and I'll try to go slowly:


Lets flip the coin, what if this happened to American soldiers?


Did you understand what Kaerila said here? Do I need to break it down to smaller words?

It did happen to American soldiers. Much worse actually considering they were tortured to death and killed with the exception of one soldier who was almost beaten to death and raped repeatedly by..are you ready for this? The same faction that the prisoners themselves are a part of.

Pointing this out to Kaerila(you know, that she needs to fire up that brain and think a bit because her what if scenario actually happened) isn't trying to justify anything.

Perhaps I need to back up a bit as you can't figure out the whole "read the entire thread" concept:


It was wrong, and despite how much Halo or LLeauaric or Bowler or Kaerila wants to paint a picture of Akipt, Roliel myself or anyone else here saying it's right, NO ONE IS SAYING THAT!

Is that clear?

It is a very different to say "You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill, the people responsible are in the military justice system and will be spending time in federal prison(can you say Leavenworth?), it is being taken care of." than to say "They didn't do anything wrong!" or "They were justified because the Iraqis did worse!".


HELLO! MCFLY!

Is it getting through yet?

You say that like its some small feat. Go to hell.

Um fuck you again. You only assumed I said that. Fuck you for not reading once again. I said the media blew that out of proportion just as you claim was done about the prison tortures. Fuck you for being a hypocrite. While we are throwing personal insults ... fuck off completely for every assumption you made about me. Dont say "fuck you" to me about shit you make up and assume over and over. Dont talk to me about who you have in Iraq after telling me to go to hell. You dont know shit about me or how many friends or family I have over there. Not that ANY of that has anything to do with Private Lynch. Now back to the adults.

Once again the issue is what standard we set for ourselves. You get all worked up over Private Lynch but I dont see hours of footage comemorating the ones who died. Face it, you eat the media shit just like everyone. You just pick what you wanna believe but its not any different.

Hello McFly, regardless of previous posts it doesnt change the logic that goes into thoughts like this. Stop acting like your a brain pilot and spend so much time ignoring the premise of my post.

I give up on you Bowler, you are in the middle of a Ytrok-like descent into stupidity.

Abu Ghraib? Get over it. At least it's being dealt with appropriately. Find another topic to bash America about.

I give up on you Bowler, you are in the middle of a Ytrok-like descent into stupidity.

No you simply cannot see the possibility that there is another view point. Im not sitting yacking out of my ass about something since almost everyone I know in RL agrees with me that the Private Lynch story has too many fantastical features to not be imbellished. Doesnt make her less of a person. The media has sensationalized this war with "facts" and "stories" that border on extreme and each side grabs the ones they want and says "Stop whinning" about the other side.

Abu Ghraib? Get over it. At least it's being dealt with appropriately. Find another topic to bash America about.
You seriously are a twisted mind. Some people live here and actually do love this country, just hate Bush's lies. "O but Bush never lies, just looks that way over and over". Seriously wake up. Being patriotic doesnt mean you wanna Rim the current administration. Means you want whats best for this country and its people.

The swearing is directed specifically at Ibubin who decided he would be a mature adult and say "Fuck you" to me for something I never said or even implied. Then tell me to "go to hell" for the same thing that I never said. I mean come on grow up. I happen to know your not 15 stop acting like it.

I know in RL agrees with me that the Private Lynch story has too many fantastical features to not be imbellished.

It was story about a young woman captured as a prisoner of war and then we got her back. Thats all I read into that story. Looks to me you got sucked into more than anyone else..talk about fanitcal. By the way can you remember the last time a 19 year woman was taken as a prisoner of war? I put women first by the way. Not sure about you though..oh wait I do.. :rollin
Thats why it was "news" to me. It wasnt a simple accident with some Iraqi's walking up and taking them hostage. There was a battle involved and a significant one at that.

So looks to be you are clinging to this story a little more than the average american did Bowler. Go back to your RL buddies and have them pat you on your back to make you feel good about yourself. It isnt going to happen here.

Fuck you. Dont come to me and say that "I over imbellished it". So now Im obsessed with a topic I didnt even bring up. Its just my opinion that the story is dramatized. Just like the prison story is. That's what the media does. Do you disagree with that statement? If not why are you still talking at me. You need to stop trying to crucify me for something I didnt say and get back to the discussion.

the last time a 19 year woman was taken as a prisoner of war
So I need to know, her sex and her age make her more of a hero? If it was a man would it be less "amazing". I think its pretty damn amazing what everyone over there is doing. Dont dimish them with sexist comments.

Jessica Lynch isnt a horrible person. She was a hero just for signing up for the Military. Just as my sister and her husband, my best friend and my old boss. Stop confusing my disdain for media sensationalism with my feelings towards the troops. Its not a crusade put down the cross.

'So looks to be you are clinging to this story a little more than the average american did Bowler. Go back to your RL buddies and have them pat you on your back to make you feel good about yourself. It isnt going to happen here.'

- Uhh.. didn't you compare it to the prison torturing and deaths?
Seems you are the one who's a bit on the.. odd side of this.

Ah no..my quote but wrong fella. I didnt compare it to anything. Its a story onto itself..completely unrelated to the prison scandel in magnitude of "media shock and awe"

Ah, right you are. Was Crist0.

*mumbles quietly* sorry *COUGH COUGH*

Its a story onto itself..completely unrelated to the prison scandel in magnitude of "media shock and awe"

And because I think they are both media exaggerated I got told to "Fuck off and go to hell". Hmmm If Im the one who is obessesed about her why the h8 HMMM?

I didn't say anything about it past showing Kaerila that she should have thought more before she posted her what if. Bowler latched onto the name and went straight into obsession over it because, as I said, evidently he is in a downward spiral into stupidity.

Now of course he's trying to deny that he accused anyone of trying to use Lynch and company as justification for the prison abuse scandal(reference "It was wrong, and despite how much Halo or LLeauaric or Bowler .." ad infinitum) and was just saying both are cases of media hype.

Interesting interpretation of this statement.

What the fuck does the poster boy/girl for blind patriotism that was injured in a vehicle crash and rescued in what still appears to be a ridiculously exaggerated and publicised media event have to do with the US acting poorly?

The next paragraph in that post was on a different topic. My later responses were totally to Ibudin who went apeshit on me for mentioning her in what he felt was a personal attack against his hero. I even said so.

Its interesting that you didnt use a single quote of mine in that last post. Maybe because you totally took what I said wrong and have since right afterwards.
I simply asked what crazed connection you thought there was? So far Ive been called an illiterate stupid idiot but you really dont have any support for that claim. You did use a "reference" that included my name so obviously wasnt my statement.

The media thing was in responce to Ibudin and you really have no place in our little off topic personal abuse session.

I dont h8 you Bowler..I only told to go to hell once and fuck off once. Just a figure of speech..shop talk as you could say. No harm done. Bad habit I guess.

Are we really at the point that we use the actions of a dictator to justify our horrible actions?



It's on a different topic?

Right after you talk about Saddam's regime and how it treated Lynch and other PoW's?

Which other "actions of a dictator" were you talking about?

What were we trying to "justify" if not the same thing everyone has been talking about the entire thread?

You are full of shit.

You were trying to do precisely what I said you were: accusing people of using Lynch and company as justification for the prisoner abuse.

I didnt say shit about Saddam in relation to Lynch ... Hmm thats the whole paragraph thing. If you look back Im responding to several different post ideas in one post. Sorry didnt mean to confuse you.

The actions of a dictator against the people who were being tortured? What the hell does Lynch have to do with Saddams treatment of his own people. Damn you are dense.

p.s. - I dont hate anyone on the internet Ibudin it was just a personal insult war that was entertaining for a while.

Which other "actions of a dictator" were you talking about?
Are you implying that Saddam's country was over run with American troops and he was put into custody because of Private Lynch?

HEHE!

OH, OK!

So you went on and on about Lynch and then jumped way off on a tangent that no one else was talking about, the Iraqi people, with absolutely no lead in at all about the subject?

Keep backtrackin Bowler, it's amusing.

Oh, and what the FUCK are you smoking Bowler? Where the hell did you pull that last statement out of?

You certainly weren't reading my post.

You are making less sense with every post.

Actually my friend I am making sense. By saying "What other action of a dictator" you are ignoring the entire context of the thread up to that point. Your being a little ego centric here. Private Lynch is mentioned ONCE in the first paragraph. None of the subsiquent paragraphs mention her or even elude to a connection. There were at the time I made that post several different argument points being discussed at the same time. Reread the thread. Each of my responses clearly addresses an issue that was mentioned before and one of them introduces a new issue which is clearly not related to Lynch either.

Ibudin and I got off on a tangent and that was the only continuing mention of Private Lynch I was making. (Clearly this paragraph is not connected to the one above).

My posts are clean and concise with nice paragraphs to break up thoughts. Sorry that confuses you.

Think Americans are simply the "new" management of the tortures at Abu Ghraib? Ted Kennedy certainly does. "Shamefully, we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management EU.S. management," Mr. Kennedy asserted.
Here is the very first quote of the thread. Interesting how my second paragraph speaks directly to that issue.

Um Bowler, that initial point had nothing to do with Saddam and his actions toward his own people and -everything- to do with people like you overinflating the issue for political ends.

Shame it wasnt about a Blow Job,

Then it would have been worth blowing out of proportion.

It did initially and that also makes a point about Private Lynch and the media ... thanks for sharing. On the other issue, if you really followed the thread you would not be arguing with me about this.

Quote from the first page .. notice the lack of Lynch.

Once again we can measure ourselves and our actions by the lowest common denominator or the highest. Apparently, Akipt thinks, as long as someone did something just a little worse we are okay doing anything we want.

Shame it wasnt about a Blow Job



You mean about committing felonies?

Clinton broke the law in more than one count on something that carries a minimum punishment of 2 years in prison and a maximum penalty of over 20 years in prison(per each count).

How can you POSSIBLY compare personal illegal actions on that scale with blaming something that happened on a squad level in the military on a President?

Especially taking into consideration that the people involved were put directly into the military justice system as soon as it was discovered?

I'll tell you how(epiphany incoming!): BECAUSE YOU ARE A MORON!



Quote from the first page .. notice the lack of Lynch.


Oh, OK!

I get it now!

Now you have decided that you suddenly in the middle of that post responded to your own post about 40 posts prior(including posts from yourself which didn't address the topic!).

Brilliant.

Reminds me of the magic bullet theory with JFK, only the bullet was a little more believable.

BECAUSE YOU ARE A MORON!

Just unable to control yourself arent ya?

Now you have decided that you suddenly in the middle of that post responded to your own post about 40 posts prior(including posts from yourself which didn't address the topic!).
Isnt it interesting that my post isnt the only one addressing that issue. Since your just going to blab on and on about how stupid cause you mistook one post, that clearly if you reread the thread is perfectly in context and actually makes no sense if you try it your way, Im not going to waste my time responding to your "your dumb cause I say so" with evidence or logical reasoning Im going to speak in a language you understand.

U r stupid shut up and dont lie so much cause your lying.

How can you POSSIBLY compare personal illegal actions on that scale with blaming something that happened on a squad level in the military on a President?
Because he is in charge. What is "THAT LEVEL" exactly?

Bush is in charge of the military. His attitudes and philosophies influence the thoughts and actions of the people under him. If he is so out of touch that nothing bad can be attributed to his leadership style then he isnt a leader at all.

Its okay though, he will surely make an intelligent and well informed speech to counter all allegations. Something like, "Im the President, that means Im the President and you isnt."

Talk to me when you have learned to understand what you read.

Until then you're just a waste of my time Bowler.

Interesting statement from you. You have done nothing but say "You stupid me smart" and you sum it up with "your a waste of my time." STOP RESPONDING TO ME THEN AND SHUT UP lol. Your just taking up thread space.

A lot of times I think Cristo gets a little too emotional, but I think he makes a lot of great points here and you just ignore them and instead focus on whatever point you think you can still win Bowler. So far it boils down to you believe Bush is responsible for the actions of every single member of the military, and that Cristo tends to call you stupid.

The first is technically true, but practically impossible. The second is definitely true.

A lot of times I think Cristo gets a little too emotional


No point in making half assed points.

Besides, it's hard not to get frustrated with idiots that post things like "What is "THAT LEVEL" exactly?" in direct response to a post where I had pointed out "that level" meant the sentencing guidelines were a minimum of 2 years and a maximum of 20 years per count(of which there were more than one).

I had pointed out "that level" meant the sentencing guidelines were a minimum of 2 years and a maximum of 20 years per count(of which there were more than one).
Your grasp of sarcasm is weak so we will move on with this and ignore that you even said this.

Its clear that you are not capable of responding to a point only good at saying "you are stupid you are stupid". Try moving past your hated for me cause I have my own opinion and didnt borrow mine from Bush.

Your not making a point here, nor have you proved my idiocy except to those sucking at your ball sack. Dont confuse disagreeing with you to lack of intelligence.

BTW what was your point in the last 2 pages anyway? If it was to prove I am "stupid" well you failed, if there was another point please show it to us. Hell use quotes if you would like.

Your grasp of sarcasm is weak

My grasp of sarcasm is weak?

So you were being sarcastic in asking what level of illegal activity?

Meaning you knew the difference in scale (which means you agreed with my point, else why would it be sarcasm to question it)?


Your not making a point here

Wait a minute, which is it Bowler?

Either you saw my point and understood it well enough to respond sarcastically in agreement, or you weren't capable of comprehending my point and assumed I didn't have one.

In the space of four sentences you have flip flopped from one extreme to the other.


If it was to prove I am "stupid" well you failed

Nope, I think you do well enough all by yourself, as your post here shows quite well.