http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/05/gaza.children/index.html?eref=googletoolbar


Such a lovely little circle, that keeps on going around and around. Neither side learning nothing, yet continue down the same bloody path. All while the rest of the world sits on the sidelines feigning there outrage. That same outrage from the year before and the year before that and the year before that and so on. Its becoming so ingrained and happens every year like clockwork, we might as well make a holiday of it. It could be a special roaming holiday, that will pop up any day of the year.

/shrug Eh,Whats another thousand years of wasted time and lives. Just Keep on repeating the same thing over and over and maybe, just maybe you might get a different outcome. Or was that the definition of insanity?

this is an important part of why this latest attack, in my opinion, is a massive blunder. disregarding the massive humanitarian disaster, and the slaughter of innocent civilians (hell, 50% of gazas population are children..FIFTY PERCENT!), it just makes 0 sense strategically. israel is effectively militarizing the already harried population to unforeseen heights, all under the excuse of self-defense.

You know what? I'm actually backing Israel on this one. Not out of any zionist approach, but merely because something has to bloody happen out there, one way or the other. Maybe, just maybe, they have the resources to pull off a complete victory, and hopefully a settlement; a harsh one? Maybe. But at this point, I'm just looking for a final one.

You know what? I'm actually backing Israel on this one. Not out of any zionist approach, but merely because something has to bloody happen out there, one way or the other. Maybe, just maybe, they have the resources to pull off a complete victory, and hopefully a settlement; a harsh one? Maybe. But at this point, I'm just looking for a final one.

Final settlement? Don't you mean Final Solution!?

No, as in peace settlement you buffoon.

No, as in peace settlement you buffoon.

That is asking alot. The place could benifit with some closure however, even if its not closure any other part of the world would call favorable. It seems like it would be more civilized for the Arab world to forfeit some land for a new Palestine and for Israel to allow them to depart for that land. Gaza is not worth all this.

It is asking alot, indeed, but then Israel seems to be committing a lot. Who knows, the news today says they've began expanding their ground offensive into the south. For Egypt's sake, I hope they stop allowing Palestinians to use those Rafah tunnels...

I hate the fact that the children are paying a price here. However Halo is right, and I think L2 said something along similar lines earlier, something has to give.

We as a world community certainly have done jack to solve the situtation and I think any of our countries would be hard pressed to do anything different at this juncture.

well fandros, your country is pretty much the only one with any sway over israel..

Yeah, we should allow Israel to continue to have endless rocket attacks launched into its territories without any reprecussions, whatsoever....

So we should tie their hands and allow rocket attacks into their homeland?

Fuck that, we need to stay out of it imho either way. No monies and definately not telling Israel that they should endure the slings and arrows of their counterparts.

Let it play out, not all of us despise them, I could give two shits either way but I certainly don't want us telling other countries the amount of damage they should take before they retaliate.

Students in Iran are asking permission to volunteer for suicide bombing from their government. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/31/iranian-suicide-bombers-s_n_154435.html

That entire area of the world is a mess. I think it's the severe heat, lack of sex and poor personal hygeine that has them all insane. I'm of the opinion that we should let Israel take care of that entire area.

:devil

Students in Iran are asking permission to volunteer for suicide bombing from their government. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/31/iranian-suicide-bombers-s_n_154435.html

That entire area of the world is a mess. I think it's the severe heat, lack of sex and poor personal hygeine that has them all insane. I'm of the opinion that we should let Israel take care of that entire area.

:devil

It's not a lack of sex if half of Gaza's population (stated by someone earlier in the thread) are children. And seriously, why would 50% of the population be children? Who would want to bring so many children into such deplorable living conditions?

and a quote from Trikki's link stood out to me:

Criticism of Hamas is rare in Iran and on Wednesday, the government ordered shut a leading reformist daily, Kargozaran, for publishing a statement by a student group that blamed Hamas for provoking the Israeli offensive.

The paper's editor Mehran Karami said the student statement condemned the Israeli attacks but also called Hamas a terrorist organization that hides in schools and draws civilian casualties.

I keep reading from certain posters that our news media in the states is biased against Palastine (which I'm not going to dispute), but in Iran they shut down an organization that called Hamas a terrorist organization.

We may see more one side of the dispute than the other in our media, but we wouldn't shut down a news organization that started detailing the plight of Palestine and called Israel the aggressor.

newsflash: iran is apparently not a free society, who woulda thunk?

Good point Taleren, we might be vile and an overly aggressive regime but by gods everyone gets their say!

we wouldn't shut down a news organization that started detailing the plight of Palestine and called Israel the aggressor.

Quite true.CNN is still on the air.

'It's not a lack of sex if half of Gaza's population (stated by someone earlier in the thread) are children. And seriously, why would 50% of the population be children? Who would want to bring so many children into such deplorable living conditions?'

- It's not increased child birth growth, but merely that most of their parents are dead.

'It's not a lack of sex if half of Gaza's population (stated by someone earlier in the thread) are children. And seriously, why would 50% of the population be children? Who would want to bring so many children into such deplorable living conditions?'

- It's not increased child birth growth, but merely that most of their parents are dead.


Not to discount what's happening right now, but come on. A few hundred adults here and there isn't going to be enough to skew the demographics that much in a population of people over 1 million.

'It's not a lack of sex if half of Gaza's population (stated by someone earlier in the thread) are children. And seriously, why would 50% of the population be children? Who would want to bring so many children into such deplorable living conditions?'

- It's not increased child birth growth, but merely that most of their parents are dead.


Which for the people here who don't quite understand... has created a population of future terrorists who want the US and Israel to pay for their suffering.

So with that being said, wipem all out.

Which for the people here who don't quite understand... has created a population of future terrorists who want the US and Israel to pay for their suffering.

Unless these young children come hardwired for hatred, someone has to teach them. They don't become terrorists by default. They might become angry and misguided and ripe for exploitation by people with political agendas or those just looking to shroud their own aspirations of wealth and power in what might be sold as a chance for payback.

Some history of the revolving door of hate. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine)

This just touches on the more modern parts of this saga. There are plenty of links to the rest. It really seems that these folks will only behave when forced to by being both subjicated by a more powerful invading force such as all the empires mentioned. Arafat was the last thing that the Palestinians have been offered as a strong central figure. Hamas has since undone alot of his efforts, and alot of steps back have resulted.

Unless these young children come hardwired for hatred, someone has to teach them. They don't become terrorists by default. They might become angry and misguided and ripe for exploitation by people with political agendas or those just looking to shroud their own aspirations of wealth and power in what might be sold as a chance for payback.

You missed the point... Dead mom and dad = hate for the Israelis and Americans

Jedd, if the child is...two or three years old, they don't even know they are alive yet or what they are part of. An infant, well even less. Someone has to TEACH them down the road. Not all of these kids need to become vindictive jihadists. Hamas will be sure to hook them up with a proper education though. That is part of my arguement. Those that are school aged, however, already have the tendrils of Hamas run schools wrapped around their brains. Its too late for those kids. They are already programmed to hate, compliments of their government. They hated Israel and the US when mommy and daddy were still alive.

So yes, I am smelling what you are stepping in Jedd, but you are seeing too narrow a picture like always. Its either black or white with you.

If Hamas gets stamped out, some of these kids in the future might have a better chance to at least be able to draw their own conclusions. The likely hood is slim but some chance with an uncertain future is better than a future of conflict with Hamas as their governing body. Many will still grow up to burn tires, throw rocks, launch rockets, make IEDs and VBIDs and tailor bomb vests.

But, Hamas feeds and provides medical care for these urchins!!!!11! At least till they are big enough to walk around with 100 lbs of C-4 strapped to their bodies....

Jedd, just to futher explore the theory that the anger of Palestinian youth is just something to be exploited, Google

"Estimated Net Worth of Yasser Arafat Upon his death".

It might be interesting or it might not. Maybe the PLO had a really good 401k. Perhaps he was just really good at cooking the books. Maybe all it was intended to be was money to buy friends (and perhaps arms). Maybe he is just like Cheney and Bush who realize that they are in positions of power to the point where they can influence the markets and thus know where to plug the money in. So dead Mom and Dad = hate for the Israellis and Americans but it also could = alot of money. These kids are just going to be pawns no matter what.

You guys are just so misinformed.. This thread and the other one are truly a waste of time. You will never change your mind and because of the inaction of others who think like you they will keep getting murdered. Sleep well knowing you won't wake up to a tank shell caving your roof in over your heads.

Jedd, just to futher explore the theory that the anger of Palestinian youth is just something to be exploited, Google

"Estimated Net Worth of Yasser Arafat Upon his death".

It might be interesting or it might not. Maybe the PLO had a really good 401k. Perhaps he was just really good at cooking the books. Maybe all it was intended to be was money to buy friends (and perhaps arms). Maybe he is just like Cheney and Bush who realize that they are in positions of power to the point where they can influence the markets and thus know where to plug the money in. So dead Mom and Dad = hate for the Israellis and Americans but it also could = alot of money. These kids are just going to be pawns no matter what.

guess why i said in the other thread that this (the fatah corruption) was a major reason they voted hamas into power? because it was.

You guys are just so misinformed.. This thread and the other one are truly a waste of time. You will never change your mind and because of the inaction of others who think like you they will keep getting murdered. Sleep well knowing you won't wake up to a tank shell caving your roof in over your heads.


Or a 123mm rocket fired randomly.

Or a 123mm rocket fired randomly.

To keep refusing to accept Israel being the aggressor and using Hamas rockets as israel permission to kill hundreds of civilians is madness

Maybe if they strapped one of those Palestinian street urchins to the 123mm Rocket, it would improve guidance and flight stability....?

The human race will not eliminate war in this century, but we can reduce the brutality of war—the level of killing—by adhering to the principles of a "Just War," in particular to the principle of "proportionality."

Proportionality - a word that some of you seem incapable of grasping.

BUT TEH ROCKETS!!11

To keep refusing to accept Israel being the aggressor and using Hamas rockets as israel permission to kill hundreds of civilians is madness

It's okay, I accept the madness if you accept me labeling you racist.

There are two side, you refuse to see the other and claim Israel as the only evil as you've always done.

You're simply too racist and biased to see that Hamas did some great wrong here as well. To you Israel is the villan here and not to be recognized as a country , merely as rocket fodder.

It's your mentality, your ilk and your passion for this type of shit that keeps the cycle going over there.

Both sides are wrong, both sides keep committing attrocities against each other. Of course you refuse to see that, and we know why but won't accept it simply because you claim it to be as such.

How to fix it? It's not for us to say, if we took the monies out from all outside countries maybe it's a start. Until then what do we do, allow that bullshit mentality to keep killing on both sides?

/sigh.

Jedd. I work in Baghdad. I could get snuffed whenever by a sniper, IDF or an improvised bomb etc etc. I work at the embassy and don't wear a uniform here, but these guys don't care. We are all colaborators in the occupation as far as where they point their weapons. Even the little old lady who is the secretary for the Ambo and brings him his coffee.

So please, try to scare me some other way, alright?

You will never change your mind and because of the inaction of others who think like you they will keep getting murdered.

Israel is a sovereign nation. Anyone can tell them to stop but its still their business if they want to or not. Cutting off their allowance might help, but we also give an allowance to Egypt and Jordan as well. They have not pissed us off but to be fair they would have to be cut off too, just so we don't seem like we are playing favorites. Their economies might not benefit from that and could lead to more unemployed young people who are easily swayed into doing stupid shit for Allah while their handlers make some cash.

guess why i said in the other thread that this (the fatah corruption) was a major reason they voted hamas into power? because it was.

Can't deny that there might be a connection there, but was trading a crook for Islamist radicals a better deal? Getting fleeced might still be better than getting killed. The West Bank didn't seem to think it was in the best interest of the Palestinian people to be associated with Hamas, or do those in the West Bank not count anymore? Did they turn in their Palestinian cards when they decided that dirty peace was still peace?

Proportionality - a word that some of you seem incapable of grasping.

BUT TEH ROCKETS!!11

You're lost man, there is no such fucking word as proportional in war.

It's that type of bullshit thinking that has hurt us since , and including, vietnam.

By that logic then we should end all conflicts with a nuclear weapon, since that will assure us victory and proportionality be damned?

No bub, that's extremist thinking. By my logic you use enough force to remove your enemies ability to hurt you. You don't throw out nukes, which in the end can hurt everyone.

But that "oppressive" thinking, Fandros. We certainly don't want anyone to have thier feelings hurt....

wow, so many sociopaths in one thread, amazing.

That seems to be a very thin line you're walking...

We killed more people in Japan with firebombing than we did with our nuclear bombs.

Was our bombing campaign crucial to Japan's surrender? Obviously.

Was it ethical?

Would it be ethical for Israel to commence some type of 'shock and awe' demonstration of force, inflicting mass casualties on the Palestinians in Gaza, if it would lead to their demise?

I'm a big fan of realpolitik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik) thinking. I imagine, however, that it was much easier when you could not simply hop on the web and see the faces of the people being killed.

Proportionality - a word that some of you seem incapable of grasping

Using this logic, Israel could have just shot 4 Hamas soldiers from a border crossing to equal the amount of Israelis killed by rockets.

Using the same logic, the US military should have used precision ordinance to kill EXACTLY 2,752 members of Al Qaeda on Sept 12th, 2001. One for every man, woman and child killed the previous day. That is of course after careful study as to determine who exactly is an Al Qaeda member and if they are in a location where there would be no chance of collateral damage.

It would be a proportionate responce. And probably be totally ineffective. In fact, it would probably be so half assed as to do nothing more but to get the opposing faction angered to the point of even being more militant, because tactically you have achieved nothing. You have only sent a political statement and one that in time could get easy to predict.

Nope. Some times you have to just totally stamp their leadership and military out and then keep a watchful eye afterwards.

Was it ethical?

I am trying real hard to not just unload on this one, but it was a WAR. The argument for the nukes was to SAVE lives actually. The tit for tat stuff had to stop in one stroke. Besides, War and Ethics should never be considered governed by each other. Even the most bleeding heart of pacifist liberals should know better.

it was much easier when you could not simply hop on the web and see the faces of the people being killed.

The web is too slow here. Its easier just to turn on the TV and watch CNN. This is a real feeding frenzy for them. They have done more damage to troops in the field trying to do their jobs by eroding national and global support for combating terrorism then any enemy weapon. The media is the most powerful weapon the extremists have in their arsenal and they use it well.

That is of course after careful study as to determine who exactly is an Al Qaeda member and if they are in a location where there would be no chance of collateral damage.


OMG, Patriot Act!!!11!!!

wow, so many sociopaths in one thread, amazing.

Hey, we can't all sit back and hope others come to rescue the world and ourselves.

I'm all for a world of peace, I am, but it speaks ill of your nature to label me a sociopath simply because I know truth over your fable.

That seems to be a very thin line you're walking...

We killed more people in Japan with firebombing than we did with our nuclear bombs.

Was our bombing campaign crucial to Japan's surrender? Obviously.

Was it ethical?

Would it be ethical for Israel to commence some type of 'shock and awe' demonstration of force, inflicting mass casualties on the Palestinians in Gaza, if it would lead to their demise?

I'm a big fan of realpolitik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik) thinking. I imagine, however, that it was much easier when you could not simply hop on the web and see the faces of the people being killed.

You are right Ainwein, it is a thin line and one I abhor. I didn't say I liked the option I painted, but to do less is to extend the actions. To extend means more deaths down the road, to give courage to your enemy that they have hope of defeating you. War has to be ugly, you have to fear using it. However others should fear going to war with you at all.

Show me where words have ever worked in that sandpit of cyclical pain and suffering. Of course war has never worked either, likely a good reason for us to stay the hell out of it.

i label you a sociopath because you regard your "enemies" as less than human, deserving of everything that happens to them. and i hate to godwin this, but i hope you know who called people untermench, do i need to go on?

and seriously, your version of truth...is not truth.

edit: this conflict is not a war, it does not resemble war in any meaningful way, it is a one-sided slaughter.

Hey Wiggo, where did I say they were less than human. Take your self righteous bullshit and shove it.

Of course they are human, so are the Israeli's slain in rocket attacks.

Funny, I don't see you decrying that action. You aren't capable as it's ingrained in you to see them as less than human huh?

My version of truth is just that, mine. War is ugly, it has to be. It should be the iron in any diplomacy. Last resort to be used only when your populace continues to suffer.

Others fight for you and your version of the truth man. It's still dying and pain in the end, others just pay the butchers bill.

i label you a sociopath because you regard your "enemies" as less than human, deserving of everything that happens to them. and i hate to godwin this, but i hope you know who called people untermench, do i need to go on?

and seriously, your version of truth...is not truth.

edit: this conflict is not a war, it does not resemble war in any meaningful way, it is a one-sided slaughter.

War is described as military action between two forces. I'm sorry that filters don't allow that to be so because it's Jews on the other side.

Both sides have been fighting a war for quite some time. It's a war, and no amount of illusion on your effort will change that.


war - 12 dictionary results

war

1   /wɔr/ Show Spelled Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) [wawr] Show IPA Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html)
noun, verb, warred, war⋅ring, adjective –noun 1.a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air







Sorry, your attempt at redefining to fit your situational bias has failed.

if you do indeed consider them human, how can you justify slaughtering them? and stop trying to call me anti-semitic you idiot, i have said previously many times how terrible the rocket firing is. both sides are guilty of violence, but there is an extremely obvious distinction to be made: israel is the occupier, palestine is the occupied. if this conflict is to end in the foreseeable future, without even more slaughter, israel is the part that needs to act first.

Ok Wiggo, Jedd, Wein, Nydia and whomever else feels these guys need a hug and not a boot in the ass....

What do you propose as far as fixing this then?

Its been thorougly established that the current choices made so far are not acceptable options at the tea party today, so what is? Anyone can point a finger and say that this is wrong or you're wrong and/or toss around some insults and then offer nothing constructive in return as an alternative. What do you offer that is a fair compromise and will lead to a binding and lasting peace???????

War is not governed by ethics?

Again, you're talking about realpolitik, a Cold War era military doctrine that while effective, has the unfortunate characteristic of being entirely devoid of any regard for humanity.

Yeah, you don't hear about it much anymore.

if you do indeed consider them human, how can you justify slaughtering them? and stop trying to call me anti-semitic you idiot, i have said previously many times how terrible the rocket firing is. both sides are guilty of violence, but there is an extremely obvious distinction to be made: israel is the occupier, palestine is the occupied. if this conflict is to end in the foreseeable future, without even more slaughter, israel is the part that needs to act first.

As I recall Israel has acted, and given back land. Why do you keep putting this solely on Israel tho? Egypt blockades the area as much as Israel.

It's ugly man, but you are very biased and it's apparent dumbass.

If it's a slaughter it's because Hamas hides amongst the masses. You might argue that it's the only way they can fight. Well if they really gave two shits about the people for more than fodder they'd find other methods. They have the money why don't they take it to the world courts instead of force women and children into the line of fire.

War is often slaughter, and yes this is war ( despite your cries of it not being so). Half actions end up in long disputes and bigger messes.

Will Israel's actions at this time end the cycle of bloodshed? No, I highly doubt it, but other methods have failed to gain traction as well ( and blood flowed then as well ).

What do you propose as far as fixing this then?

Pot. Lots and lots of pot.

Pot. Lots and lots of pot.


LMAO big bonfires of it in the middle of the streets?

Would give use to the stuff captured by the police over here!!

Man think of the killing to be made selling fast food around the corner of said bonfires!

1. lift the occupation, stop building illegal settlements, dismantle current settlements, lift the embargo, stop building & dismantle the illegal wall on palestinian land.

this will, realistically, undermine the palestinian radicals, instead of what the current action is doing: radicalizing the civilian population further.

2. negotiate over either a. a one state solution, with equal rights for all, or b. a two state solution, based on the 1967 borders and, possibly, a solution for the palestinian refugees. do this without silly preconditions to BEGIN talking.

Both sides have to give before they get to that happy land you mention Wiggo.

Equal action from the Palastines has to take place. The reason for the wall has to be taken away. No more bombers sneaking in to bomb women and children. No more rocket attacks, no more inciting the masses to slay the infidel by the religious quacks.

No, I don't condone action by Israel alone as it won't work. There's a very real reason for that wall.

I'd buy into removing the settlements however. Sadly those same areas given back are the ones they use to launch rockets further into Israel.

As I recall Israel has acted, and given back land. Why do you keep putting this solely on Israel tho? Egypt blockades the area as much as Israel.

It's ugly man, but you are very biased and it's apparent dumbass.

If it's a slaughter it's because Hamas hides amongst the masses. You might argue that it's the only way they can fight. Well if they really gave two shits about the people for more than fodder they'd find other methods. They have the money why don't they take it to the world courts instead of force women and children into the line of fire.

War is often slaughter, and yes this is war ( despite your cries of it not being so). Half actions end up in long disputes and bigger messes.

Will Israel's actions at this time end the cycle of bloodshed? No, I highly doubt it, but other methods have failed to gain traction as well ( and blood flowed then as well ).

israel "gave back" only gaza, and by gave back i mean did not stop controlling the borders, the air space, the ocean space and the movement and life of the population with checkpoints. yes, egypts actions are also deplorable, no one has denied this, but they are not invading gaza as we speak.

and seriously, what do you want hamas to do, in one of the most tightly populated areas in the world? ride a jeep into the desert and scream "hey israel, you can shoot us now!"? take it to the worlds court, are you god damn kidding me?

laying the blame on hamas for the civilian deaths is hypocrisy of the highest order.

Both sides have to give before they get to that happy land you mention Wiggo.

Equal action from the Palastines has to take place. The reason for the wall has to be taken away. No more bombers sneaking in to bomb women and children. No more rocket attacks, no more inciting the masses to slay the infidel by the religious quacks.

No, I don't condone action by Israel alone as it won't work. There's a very real reason for that wall.

I'd buy into removing the settlements however. Sadly those same areas given back are the ones they use to launch rockets further into Israel.

fine, build the wall, BUT NOT ON PALESTINIAN LAND.

War is not governed by ethics?

Again, you're talking about realpolitik, a Cold War era military doctrine that while effective, has the unfortunate characteristic of being entirely devoid of any regard for humanity.

Yeah, you don't hear about it much anymore.


Right. Oh? You are being serious?

The old ways of warfare where generals on horse back sat back and ordered ordered soldiers to blast/slash each other in opposing ranks until one side had all their soldiers down first was much more ethical and humane? Afterward the winning side earned the right to plunder all the crops, rape all the women, sack and burn the villages, enslave the children etc etc. There is no humanitarian crisis when no one is left alive apparently.

There is no ethics in warfare. If there ever was or is an ethical display, its only due to the actions of the officers prosecuting the war, but the actual ACT of warfare is 100% devoid of any inkling of ethics or humanity in its most basic concept. War is nothing more but kill your fellow human being, be it for a logical goal or not and that goal is always relative to whose side you happen to be on. If there was a desire for ethics and fairness to govern all contests than there are few Superbowl games that should have never been played.

No I'm not "god damn kidding you".

Ask yourself this, and do try to think before you vent please, why are there checkpoints?

Did they?:

Put them up before or after the violence against their own people?

This can't be put on Israel alone, if you want outside help to settle the issue get the monies to stop flowing in. Good luck with that one, I have no idea how that would happen.

fine, build the wall, BUT NOT ON PALESTINIAN LAND.

One could make a salient point that because of the need for the wall that it should be those that are committing the actions to give the land to build it.

/shrug I don't know, but I can "kinda" see that point.

There is no ethics in warfare. If there ever was or is an ethical display, its only due to the actions of the officers prosecuting the war, but the actual ACT of warfare is 100% devoid of any inkling of ethics or humanity in its most basic concept. War is nothing more but kill your fellow human being, be it for a logical goal or not and that goal is always relative to whose side you happen to be on. If there was a desire for ethics and fairness to govern all contests than there are few Superbowl games that should have never been played.I'm confused.

So, if a soldier decides not to shoot an innocent civilian, that is not an expression of his morality?

And if its an officer or the President issuing the moral decree, it's somehow invalid? :confused:

The President says we arent going to bomb area X because of the high probability of mass civilian casualties. This is the President expressing his ethics, mainly that he values innocent lives. This trickles down the pipe, and the effect is that the area is not bombed.

Your argument seems to be 'war is hell'. I would agree with you.

But the decision to kill or not to kill is often one based solely on ethics, whether it be that of the individual soldier or commanding officer.

Your argument seems to be 'war is hell'. I would agree with you.

But the decision to kill or not to kill is often one based solely on ethics, whether it be that of the individual soldier or commanding officer.

And, that soldier or officer may be weighing many factors in that decision: it is not right to kill; it is my duty to protect my family and fellow soldiers and country; we have intelligence that we took incoming from this target; if I do not eliminate this target am I then causing further casualties?

Hard to say what all is going through the decision making parts of the mind at that given instant.

and seriously, what do you want hamas to do, in one of the most tightly populated areas in the world? How about stop shooting off rockets and morters and pursue some sort of negotiations that don't involve explosions? take it to the worlds court, are you god damn kidding me? Well people seem to think it's a great idea when the Court declares George Bush and Dick Cheney war criminals, but its not good enough to help broker some sort of justice for Hamas?

laying the blame on hamas for the civilian deaths is hypocrisy of the highest order. The hypocrisy exists when you decide that because Israel has bigger weapons, that it is somehow obligated not to respond against any sort of aggression. Remember, these aren't kids shooting off bottle rockets....

Wein, All I have stated is that the act of war itself in its most basic theory is NOT ethical.

Ethics are something that could be introduced by the key decision makers, but otherwise warfare is an empty shell devoid of any philosophical or ethical framework. I myself tend to be pragmatic, so the approach of realpolitik makes a strong argument in its favor from my point of view. I don't see wars for religion or differences in political ideology as practical or logical reasons for warfare. I can argue that if you cut off my access to resources then war might be reasonable. It might even lead me to think that if there are two sides killing each other off for resources than there will be less demand of the resources because the dead people don't consume any and they might be easier to distribute after and thus end the reason for even having to continue the conflict. In that sense the only excuse Hamas has in my eye is that Israel blockades their access to basic needs. Israel can justify their approach in the fact that they are having to deal with a case where if you live in New York City, you are dealing with people launching rockets at you from New Jersey. Religion or not, that is just to brazen to allow to let fly and its a life safety issue for your people. Shrouding it in religion and /or playing the Islam/Jew card is just bullshit but its the modern reality. Alot of what bothers me the most about the Middle East that ALL the conflict here is ideological which means it will never be fixed. Most of the killing is not done in the name of goals that are tangible or even realistic. Its all wrapped up in religion. Intangible faith. If I am going to die in a war, I want to die for something tangible and practical, like making sure my family has food, shelter and medicine. Not because I am a Jew or a Muslim and our dead ancestors had some unresolved business etc etc.

How about stop shooting off rockets and morters and pursue some sort of negotiations that don't involve explosions? Well people seem to think it's a great idea when the Court declares George Bush and Dick Cheney war criminals, but its not good enough to help broker some sort of justice for Hamas?

The hypocrisy exists when you decide that because Israel has bigger weapons, that it is somehow obligated not to respond against any sort of aggression. Remember, these aren't kids shooting off bottle rockets....

not going to bother responding to your propaganda soundbites.

not going to bother responding to your propaganda soundbites.
Please, by all means, STFU.

LummusL, I'm sure the Native Americans felt the same way about us Caucasions: Willing to kill and die for land, that no one truly owns. At least they fought for thier way of life....

Isreal should just get mediveal and seal the borders. Shut off power water ect. and let them starve to death or give up. Stop sending in supplies completly. Hell you could even lob a few diseased bodies over the wall to help the process along.

Then Isreal wont need its high tech weaponry that is so unfair vs rockets except to bomb new tunnels.

Isreal should just get mediveal and seal the borders. Shut off power water ect. and let them starve to death or give up. Stop sending in supplies completly. Hell you could even lob a few diseased bodies over the wall to help the process along.

Then Isreal wont need its high tech weaponry that is so unfair vs rockets except to bomb new tunnels.

it is quite ironic that is is pretty much what israel was doing prior to these attacks.

well fandros, your country is pretty much the only one with any sway over israel..

Our country is the only thing that keeps Israel from wiping them out completely.

Id be really curious to see peoples reactions if it was their kids being blown up in school. Whether they would be so forgiving since its "not a war".

I can only say 1 thing about this entire region. Fuck religion.

I can only say 1 thing about this entire region. Fuck religion.

Fucking A!!

The region does make a decent argument for atheism. Or Eastern religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism and all the other ism's.

I am still scratching my head as to WHY Islam is the world's top religion. Granted not all states practice the strict Islamist flavor, but there are many aspects of proper adherence to Islam that run counter to many fundamentals of human rights. The treatment of women is a good place to start. How about most anything that is not praying or work being taboo? Why is it most any Islamic culture they can't seem to keep government and religion two separate bodies? The Islamic nations are easy to spot, with the crescent moons on their flags. Those flags seem to scream:

"We could not come up with a fair governing body for our country, so we put Allah in the drivers seat".

Heh. Your flag also screams that you are member of the nutjob club too.

In short, Islam does a very good job of making alot of life's simple pleasures social taboo, and since Islam and government seem to be two heads of the same snake, what is taboo also becomes illegal with exceptionally harsh punishments. Rule by intangiable theocratic dogma is just beyond me. It takes practical common sence and throws it all out the window. It also means there will never be any checks and balances or any way to turn off conflicts short of these wackos praying for Divine Intervention or they get killed off. Even dying is not a motivation for them to stop. Its an encouragment.

What a fucked up mess.

It's not about religion, it's about power.

What a terrible scene this child is being taken to the ER for having half his body blow off. Look at all the blood. Its everywhere. I mean shit, he even has a lollipop in his mouth after having endured a traumatic haircut.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/05/gaza.children/index.html?eref=googletoolbar

Im tired of this discussion. You fuck with the bull, you get the horns. Remember all those bullshit photos that came out of Lebanon for the sake of PR? Fuck Hamas. How come there is no war going on in the west bank Jedd? There are lots of Palestinians there too.

It's not about religion, it's about power.


That is true, the trouble with religion is it makes it alot easier to exert.

What a terrible scene this child is being taken to the ER for having half his body blow off. Look at all the blood. Its everywhere. I mean shit, he even has a lollipop in his mouth after having endured a traumatic haircut.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/05/gaza.children/index.html?eref=googletoolbar

Im tired of this discussion. You fuck with the bull, you get the horns. Remember all those bullshit photos that came out of Lebanon for the sake of PR? Fuck Hamas. How come there is no war going on in the west bank Jedd? There are lots of Palestinians there too.

wait, what, are we talking about the lebanon israel coated with cluster bombs? the lebanon israel bombed back to the relative stone age infrastructure-wise? yea, that invasion was also so defensive.

Religion IS power. Anyone outside of its influence can see that....

By that logic then we should end all conflicts with a nuclear weapon, since that will assure us victory and proportionality be damned?

It's called the Geneva Convention. Rules of Engagement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

Also see Law of Armed Conflict. Civilians killed are collateral damage, and the reason we have precision bombs to prevent that as much as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_armed_conflict

If a Country doesn't have the means to fight in this manner, then they really should think about running better politics.

Israel, in my opinion has every right to defend their borders. If Mexico or Canada were hostile towards the U.S. and were constantly firing rockets into our border; bet your ass we would take away their capabilites of attacking us. Palestine said that they would have no peace until Israel surrendered the Gaza strip; Israel gave them the land they requested. What did Palestine do? They used the Gaza strip to fire rockets into Israel and demanded more land. Palestine ie Hamas will not stop until Israel is obliterated. Seriously, if Palestine had the same military might as Israel, you don't think they would be doing a lot worse then Israel is right now? I shudder to think if they had nuclear capabilities in that area of the world. Israel would already be gone.

:devil

i label you a sociopath because you regard your "enemies" as less than human, deserving of everything that happens to them. and i hate to godwin this, but i hope you know who called people untermench, do i need to go on?

and seriously, your version of truth...is not truth.

edit: this conflict is not a war, it does not resemble war in any meaningful way, it is a one-sided slaughter.

This goes the same for both sides. Does the "Suicide bomber" think of their enemies as human when they detonate themselves at an elementary school? Do the organizations that celebrate and call this monster a Martyr, a hero also feel the same value for a human life? How about the Countries like Iran that celebrated in the streets after the 911 attack on "innocent" people?

edit. I'm not implying that you support one side or another Wiggo, just trying to make a point.

:devil

It's called the Geneva Convention. Rules of Engagement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

Also see Law of Armed Conflict. Civilians killed are collateral damage, and the reason we have precision bombs to prevent that as much as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_armed_conflict

If a Country doesn't have the means to fight in this manner, then they really should think about running better politics.

Israel, in my opinion has every right to defend their borders. If Mexico or Canada were hostile towards the U.S. and were constantly firing rockets into our border; bet your ass we would take away their capabilites of attacking us. Palestine said that they would have no peace until Israel surrendered the Gaza strip; Israel gave them the land they requested. What did Palestine do? They used the Gaza strip to fire rockets into Israel and demanded more land. Palestine ie Hamas will not stop until Israel is obliterated. Seriously, if Palestine had the same military might as Israel, you don't think they would be doing a lot worse then Israel is right now? I shudder to think if they had nuclear capabilities in that area of the world. Israel would already be gone.

:devil

i find it hilarious that you justify israels action using the most inaccurate facts ever used in the history of the world. why dont you educate yourself on the conflict before passing any judgment? thanks in advance.

edit: also, it is very ironic to see you quote the geneva convention in defense of israels actions, are you completely insane? they are guilty of routinely breaking the convention themselves, holy shit.

This goes the same for both sides. Does the "Suicide bomber" think of their enemies as human when they detonate themselves at an elementary school? Do the organizations that celebrate and call this monster a Martyr, a hero also feel the same value for a human life? How about the Countries like Iran that celebrated in the streets after the 911 attack on "innocent" people?

edit. I'm not implying that you support one side or another Wiggo, just trying to make a point.

:devil

Fucking propaganda spewing idiot!!!

Iranians held candlelight vigils for us after 9/11. They stopped with death toamerica chants and mourned our innocent's deaths, which falls right in line with what I argue nonstop. That they hate our government not our people.

I can't believe you use examples you k ow nothing about. What a piece of shit.

I think Trikki merely has her countries confused. It was the Palestines that were chanting in the street and cheering on the actions of those vile bastards that perpetrated the 9/11 actions not Iran.

Mind you the Palestines were only doing as instructed by those that clothe and feed them. I really doubt that Mr Joe Average in Gaza really knew much about how to feel either way. I'd think he was more concerned with how he was going to feed his children that day.

Thats the problem though, so much miss information and people not knowing what they are talking about. Saying Iranians were dancing in the streets after 911 is an example of that. Trikki is not the only one that thinks that, I hear and see that crap regurgitated all the time around my family and work. Its a hopeless case, it really is. There is no solution to the problem, its based on deep seated hate for one another and religion being the driving force.

There is no solution to the problem, its based on deep seated hate for one another and religion being the driving force.

No, its based on miseducation and an unwillingness to seek out information and facts from multiple sources in order to understand any mirade of issues throughout the globe.

The solution... READ and READ A LOT!


Cheers,

Trying to find an unbiased news source to educate yourself about that area of the world is a large problem.

:devil

The "average" Palestinian just wants to feed their family and live unencumbered. Hamas does not want that, they want war with Israel, it really is that simple. They were elected by a slim majority, so one could say they speak for the people although I would bet money that many of those who voted for them did so due to intimidation.

Unfortunately there voting does not mean that everything democracy is taking place, there is none of the other infrastructure that is necessary to make it a democracy IE: courts, congress etc no representation of the people, just an agenda by a few at the top.

No, its based on miseducation and an unwillingness to seek out information and facts from multiple sources in order to understand any mirade of issues throughout the globe.

The solution... READ and READ A LOT!


Cheers,

Ah Ms. CHeers, you quoted the fact there is no solution to the Palestinians and Israelis....educate them on how to treat each other. Having the general populous of US understand it, will have very little impact on the real core problem...DEEP SEATED HATE for each other, and RELIGION.

Trying to find an unbiased news source to educate yourself about that area of the world is a large problem.

:devil


You mean the local Imams and Al-Jazeera are biased? Whoda thunk it? :rolleyes:

Trying to find an unbiased news source to educate yourself about that area of the world is a large problem.

:devil


There's only one large news source in the US that would tell you that Iran was cheering in the streets after 9/11. My solution would be to stop watching said news channel (duh Foxnews).

Then try and deliniate your text more with descriptive content, the way I read your post was like this:


Trikki is not the only one that thinks that, I hear and see that crap regurgitated all the time around my family and work. Its a hopeless case, it really is.


Still the answer is READ and READ A LOT..... from MULTIPLE sources.


Cheers,

So what if you read multiple sources that doesn't mean what you're reading isn't biased or true.

I think the point is to read multiple biased yet opposite sources and take the middle ground which would be that both are to blame bringing us to the inevitable "kill them all and let god sort it out"!


Next on the agenda?

So what if you read multiple sources that doesn't mean what you're reading isn't biased or true.

Very true, some would have you think different. It's very human to gravitate towards what you find comfortable. Sources and influences you knew before are easier to return to for information than those you have yet to explore.

Fandros hit the nail on the head. People, and the US this is a huge problem, tend to gravitate towards sources whose tilt agrees with there own. What this has done is make them more and more extreme in their views. I have been guilty, as everyone usually is, of doing that on occasion. I do read from various sources so that I can see what kind of crap they are all spewing and do my own investigation on that crap. What I find is, sometimes it's not crap...and thus my view of the subject changes.

I knew right off the bat if I kept listening to Air Negative, umm America that I would be getting more and more extreme...and getting little fact. Just as Dittoheads do with Duech Limbutt. I like to read sources less obvious in their tilt and occasionally read the extremes as well.

Fandros hit the nail on the head. People, and the US this is a huge problem, tend to gravitate towards sources whose tilt agrees with there own. What this has done is make them more and more extreme in their views. I have been guilty, as everyone usually is, of doing that on occasion. I do read from various sources so that I can see what kind of crap they are all spewing and do my own investigation on that crap. What I find is, sometimes it's not crap...and thus my view of the subject changes.

I knew right off the bat if I kept listening to Air Negative, umm America that I would be getting more and more extreme...and getting little fact. Just as Dittoheads do with Duech Limbutt. I like to read sources less obvious in their tilt and occasionally read the extremes as well.

And thus is explained the success of Fox News and MSNBC; they both cater to those too lazy or illiterate to do any reading on their own, at the two opposite poles.