I'm surprised no one mentioned this.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/02/anonymous-to-security-firm-working-with-fbi-youve-angered-the-hive.ars


But the article I found more interesting was http://www.salon.com/news/wikileaks/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2011/02/11/campaigns

No surprises the gov't is against wiki leaks and I guess I shouldn't be surprised of tactics to strong arm people from thier support of wiki leaks. But, I was surprised to see how common it is and that the Chamber of Commerce (really?) would stoop so low.

Frankly b/c of things like this I think wiki leaks is needed and it makes me wonder what else is going on.

I'd heard about the targeting of Glenn Greenwald and others. Bank of America has been in Wikileaks' sights for a few months now -- I wager the eventual document dump will have some juicy, unpleasant details included about the company.

I'm never surprised at how low the CoC will stoop. I do find the whole Wikileaks thing vastly amusing, though.

/shrug. Wikileaks is not exactly virtuous either. Why anyone would expect that both sides would keep it above board is anyone's guess.

This cracks me up. Corporate smear job foiled by corporate consultant's gross incompetence and hubris. What the proles don't notice is that there are well oiled lie machines out there, and then wonder in confusion why whenever they step outside narrative land, the world is a strange and inexplicable place.

This cracks me up. Corporate smear job foiled by corporate consultant's gross incompetence and hubris. What the proles don't notice is that there are well oiled lie machines out there, and then wonder in confusion why whenever they step outside narrative land, the world is a strange and inexplicable place.

So what? I mean...really. Who gives a fuck?

In "1984" the proles were the only demographic who were somewhat happy or at least content enough to be stable with their existance. The middle managers were completely miserable while the top still lived off the fat of the land while enslaving the middle castes to keep the rest of the society completely and utterly clueless. There are always conspiracies, secret societies, kabals, zaibatsu etc etc in the elite castes of society. Always carving up the world for their own ends completely independant of what the rest of the 99% of the world knows or cares about. It has always been like that since people learned how to exist in tribes where there was always a few leaders and the rest entrust them to do what is for their best interest (regardless if they are doing something underhanded or not) so they can go about their daily contributions to society. Otherwise, you might as well have anarchy.

The thing is, Malse, people like yourself and Sanchek who envision themselves as being smart enough to know about all the well oiled machines laying just benieth the surface of mundane everyday life as well as being elitiest enought to look upon the majority of Humanity with utter disdain are cursed. Cursed because you are additionally well aware of the fact that you can't do a damned thing about it other than become total and complete misanthropes.

Sorry but I would rather live a happy and simple life blind to what is behind the curtain than go through my short existance on this Earth knowing that I in fact knew everything there was to know but were powerless to do anything about it.

Aw fuck I see what you did there.

If you don't know who the sucker at the table is, it's you.

If you don't know who the sucker at the table is, it's you.

Word.

I may not have the power over all the stupidity out there to change things for the better (in my opinion of what that is, anyway), although that is the basic fantasy of American exceptionalism and rugged individualism, in which the manly stranger, needing no one but helping others rides into and out of legend to show "folks" the way; so I find it telling that it is turned around into a rejection of in effect, being educated. It is said that people laud others who display traits they like in themselves, and accuse others of their own failings.

Point remains I at least try to maintain a decent understanding of what's going on. Maybe it's all wasted effort in the end, but I'm probably closest to what you'd call a Sartre existentialist, so for me at least, the act of learning and sharpening my own mind is a worthwhile endeavor in and of itself. Time has proven out that the inquiring mind has netted me a salary well above the national average, few personal crises and challenges, and not a small amount of sack time with brainy chicks, so I can't complain too much.

There are plenty of people out there who care how things actually go down, and they're usually interesting folks.

You might be surprised at how much the general population may actually percieve but choose to filter out. Either they feel its not their business or they have no control over it, or they could just be aware that not all the facts are being presented fully or impartially so they chose to focus on what they do have control over. I would not call that ignorance. Apathy perhaps, but again ultimately where does that leave the majority of people? You don't have to be a card carrying intellectual with all the trappings of elitism to know that not all is as it should. Then again, life is busy enough without choosing to hitch yourself to the rest of the world's burdens.

If there is a crisis in education, than it doesn't start with people not getting too overly concerned about what some of the more obnoxious netizens are up too versus the usual corporate sleeze. Both are tow sides of the same coin anyway for a morale standpoint. Both could just be about manipulating stock share prices for all we know. Sure, its good filler for conversation around the water cooler or at a bar or whatever social setting where you want to prove that you know more than the person seated next to you, prognosticating that you alone have it all figured out and you alone know the truth. Well, if we are all so dumb and not enlightened to pursue those aspects of learning centered around being an arm chair analyst at 24/7 news channel of your choice, than perhaps we can start with encouraging the basics such as math and science. If that is too ambitious maybe even just learning the language of the country where they live. Then hopefully we can all be as smug and confident as some of you where life's little trials and tribulations are reserved only for the uneducated and impoverished.

And just for the record, I do not support Wikileaks or Anonymous. Its a grey area if what they are doing is criminal or not but IMHO it is certainly not virtuous. What exactly is it that you want anyway? A revolution such as in Egypt so we can probably have a "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss?" type senario? Topple over the whole house of cards and usher in a proud new age of Anarchy? The little guy knows he is being screwed, but how much more screwed would they be if it all came crashing down? Maybe the Chinese can buy up what is left at firesale prices as long as we all learn Manderin and that the New Year is governed by lunar cycles and not a Julian calendar. LOL after 2 years in China, well, you don't want China running our affairs. Business and Government are literally one entity there. That much is transparent.

Anyway, the fat cats will still take the least damage. Yes, the system is shit, but what do you suggest it be replaced with? Half of the article is just that guy's rant about how much big business and government are in bed with each other. Wow that is a real shock there. Well, things are going to be much worse for the little guy when government and business are at loggerheads with each others because it was easy to outsource some jobs. They can always outsource more...or how about just plain leaving our shores and taking all that tax revenue, jobs and knowledge with it? It's been know since people were taught what "The Golden Rule" is as to who runs the show. So you can have less government and more private rule or the pendulem can swing the other way to the opposite, depending on which party you vote for. If you really want to seperate government and big business, all you have to do is scare all the large companies off our shores, rob the government of it's income source (revenue from taxes) and see what is left over in the end. I am guessing pure equity as we all enjoy our nice comfy Dark Ages existance.

Intellectual apathy and education are mutually exclusive. Suggesting improvements in education while celebrating a status quo of ignorant apathy is fundamentally flawed.

I could really give a fuck if you think it is flawed logic, Sanchek. Especially when a topic when not presented with a blatant bias such as this salon.com article is at the very best completely beyond the ability of anyone short of God to do anything about. This is way past trying to fight city hall. Best to do what you can to enjoy life while working withing the vastly flawed system (which means voting etc) and "basic" education will do that. Wikileaks will just give you more worries. I am aware of all the so called "well oiled machines" that fly in the face of good law and order, but honestly I have more important things to concern myself with in the here and now.

People might also want to know that a killer asteroid is going to hit the Earth in 20 years. Perhaps one is but would it be healthy for society as a whole to know? Am I being apathetic by not wanting to know? How many people would just say screw it and stop going to work or having kids or advancing society as a whole for the next 20 years if they knew it was all going to be wiped out in not even a generation? Part of having hope is also being insulated from the horrors you have no control over. You can also be a brilliant scientist or artist or writer or whatever and always be learning without having to uncover all the conspiracies and plots of the world. The world needs some secrets to stay secret just due to the fact that knowing them does little positive good ( and might even be harmful) for most anyone unless you are already a player in the game with the wealth or power to influence how it is played.

I'm confused as to what you're getting at. You don't want to end up like china but you're advocating the ignorance of/and or apathy towards social issues in exchange for material comfort, which is basically the exact deal the ruling party in china has struck with their technical and working class?


I'll grant there is a great general fatigue under the constant bombardment of 24 hour news, it just makes me wonder which particular big lie would be the one to get you out of the house. I first typed "off the couch" but I don't consider you lazy.

The US and China are not so different only the Chinese government is much MUCH more blatant in it intent, Malse. At least from the viewpoint of the marriage of business and government and how everything in between serves the two halves of the machine. The WHOLE country that is China is run like a giant corporation. Many things built by the state in China are at a huge loss because they serve a profitable venture elsewhere. The subway in Beijing costs 25 cents a ride for example.

Plus, you have to remember that apathy towards social issues in exchange for material comforts was an idea the Chinese aquired from the United States, not the other way around. Chinese in general also tend to be much more withdrawn into their families and nieghborhood as a matter of culture because up until recently that was all they had. They are not by nature inquizative, imaginative nor are they ready and willing to defy the system of a strong central state that has been in China for 4000 years because it is still a nation of peasants. In that case, we as Americans have a bit of an advantage the Chinese lack.

Their state owned corps are going global now and are becoming some of the very same multinational corporations that will conduct these kinds of smear campaigns only they are operating with a political agenda that is beyond just making money. The goal is soft power where as they do not have to change anything because slowly the rest of the world falls under the sway that what China does is prefectly acceptable and is even "cool" or "hip". That it is the new global paradigm. That is the whole thing that is vastly shocking about Chinese state owned corps buying their way into markets and imposing their will at the level where people have the least control over their lives, which as at the workplace. Getting fired and blackballed in an idustry is much more of a life altering event than anything a government can pull off short of warfare. Its strategic and well planned I have no idea how to fight it. Does anyone? As long as we believe we find our salvation in having a capitalist, market driven society then fundamentally we can't. You know its not our salvation but it is the system we have. Its well entrenched and to remove it might be a cure worse than the disease.

What would get me off the couch you say? Probably having children. It would not hurt for them to at least be instilled with being inquisitive and that would require the right parenting. Right now there is not much that can be done with how things are other than wait for the old guard to die out and assure the next generation of leadership is much more focused on the proper ideals. The current crop of government and business leaders seems to have missed the memo where doing what is right over-rode profit and power grabs. If you want a revolution without destroying society, then I don't see how it could be done any other way. China won't change by Obama saying they tinker with their currency or that we want to sell them toaster ovens and Chevrolets and neither will the USA. The change has to be instilled on a by generation basis because it is just that massive to require the previous generation to die out naturally and take their flaws with them. Otherwise I am just another cog in the machine, sad to say. I have to fight to keep my head above water.

That's a sort of pathetic lay-down-and-die attitude. If a killer asteroid was 20 years out, it would galvanize our resolve to ensure the survival of the human race. Sure, there would be some losers that gave up, but look around - those bums are already here today.

Regardless, how is that even remotely relevant to what we're talking about? An external, uncontrollable ELE and corruption in the government that we elect aren't comparable at all. In fact, the only thing that makes the latter similar to the former is attitudes like yours.

That's a sort of pathetic lay-down-and-die attitude. If a killer asteroid was 20 years out, it would galvanize our resolve to ensure the survival of the human race. Sure, there would be some losers that gave up, but look around - those bums are already here today.

Regardless, how is that even remotely relevant to what we're talking about? An external, uncontrollable ELE and corruption in the government that we elect aren't comparable at all. In fact, the only thing that makes the latter similar to the former is attitudes like yours.

Spot on.

Good ole Sanchek. Quick to dispense with the insults and slow with the solutions.

What do you claim is going to solve this problem with our elected officials and business leaders? Vote them out? Post more leaks on the media to augment the already huge onslaught of information? Learn how to hack government and commercial websites to disrupt the economic and government functions of day to day life? Not that anything I post has any relevance since this seems to be a story more about how Wikileaks and a bunch of hackers will save the world from our own hubris and any suggestion counter to that apparently is a waste of the time of the few people who visit this board. People seem to want the microwave TV dinner approach where there is some kind of quick tidy and remarkably bloodless ouster of all the dirtbags so we can all sit down and watch it all unfold on 24/7 news without having to do anything ourselves. Sorry Sanchek. In the world of revolutionaries or even just activists...if anything you might build the suicide vest or hand it to the poor slob who gets to blow themselves up but I don't see you actually doing anything yourself of that magnitude. Sorry bud. You make too much money and live too comfortable an existence to give all that up for any ideal.

Also, even if the asteroid was the size of a continent (killer part meaning when it hits there is no chance of life at all surviving) I am glad you would have that positive thinking that everyone could still be saved. You wouldn't have a plan of course but would be quick to degrade anyone who wasn't with you. Honestly it would take 20 years just to convince the religious wackos out there that we should actually save ourselves and that the killer asteroid is not just God's will or the rapture or whatever.

As for government and business becoming one in the same in comparison with China and the USA, well of course its different. This is America and that is China. A dark mysterious heavily polluted place full of Chinese people who smell heavily of garlic and everyone goosesteps their way to their commie hives. Its also a phenomenon of authoritarian capitalism where business and government are one in the same. China Inc. represents our greatest challenge as a nation on this Earth in terms of influence, business opportunities and resources which might require some rethinking on the part of business and government on what their relationship is to each other and the people they serve and many people might not like the end result. If you want to think in absolutes as far as contrasts, the difference is in China you can blame the government (in private of course) and in the USA there is no one to blame but ourselves for voting them in, raising them wrong, expecting less etc. Either way, it is still a huge problem. Wikileaks, if that is your fix, is still just revealing what people for the most part already know. It doesn't solve anything. Anonymous screwing with businesses such as Paypal only serves to piss off people removed from the equation who just wanted to conduct a transaction and move on. It does nothing to endear the common person to their cause.

Wikileaks, if that is your fix, is still just revealing what people for the most part already know.

No, it is verifying what we suspected. Now we do really know.

Lummus, what is your malfunction? Do you honestly believe this paradigm between suicide bombings and fatalistic surrender that you're spouting? Avoiding the last-resort of bloody regime change is exactly why it's crucial for voters to be informed, and consequently why things like WikiLeaks are important.

Embracing blissful ignorance and hoping the next generation does a better job is one of the best ways to ensure that things only continue to get worse.

You seem to mostly be arguing with yourself at this point, each paragraph typed by a new personality, with a few externally directed insults thrown in to get attention. Do you actually have a point that you can put simply and succinctly?

Things change. It's far from a given that the current state of affairs is going to continue until the end of time.


Until then I'm going to keep fighting the good fight!

Do you actually have a point that you can put simply and succinctly?

Point? Ok.

My point is:

I don't agree with you.

Others might not either. More polarizing information overload (this time from the left) is not going to bind young and old, Red and Blue, etc and blah blah into one tour de force. Maybe that asteroid might unite the public, but not Wikileaks!

Right now, people in leadership are not instilled with integrity or morality. More like "Lets make a fast buck" at the very least. At the very most the rules are either not respected or even known by so many on a global scale that knowing them might mean you only get to apply them to your own life's journey. That and instilling them on your kids. That stands the best chance of the big picture resetting of the moral compass here in the USA as the entrenched crooked establishment ultimately are going to get old and die. It will work, but not as quickly as "your good fight" which might yield some satisfaction on a win a few battles here and there scale but not win the war.

It's fine to disagree. Obviously. That's alone is hardly a valid point though.

However, there's a huge difference between disagreement on the subjective and on the objective. Believe the world's 6,000 years old all you want, and you're still dead wrong. Objectively, eschewing fact and evidence in favor of celebrated ignorance is a guaranteed to way to ensure that things only get worse.

The "just wait till the old people die off" plan is not new. Some of the flower children of the 70s are investment bankers, lobbyists, and defense contractors. If you give up and roll over without a fight, that's your choice, but don't pretend it's a clever plan to "win the war". It's not. It's a guaranteed path to things continuing to end up worse than they are today.

Your kids will be talking about waiting on your generation to die off so they can make things better...

Let me ask you this first:

Do you believe the mass media, which includes internet sites such as Wikileaks, newspapers, magazines, 24 hour TV news and the like are a trusted source of unbiased knowledge? One of our founding fathers did not:

"The advertisement is the most truthful part of a newspaper."
Thomas Jefferson (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasjeff161437.html)

And that was before the onslaught of information that is the modern age where it really takes having an ideal in hand already in which to take the "knowledge" to corroborate.

It's hard to cut through to the truth, therefore we should give up and not even try? You're not going to sell me on this quitter attitude of yours, no matter how many ways you try to rationalize or sugar coat it.

Sanchek, you have passed judgment so why should I give a fuck? Screw the sugar coating at this point.

Quitter attitude? I live in the real world. Basic survival needs come FIRST. At the end of the day I give a shit about whatever I can make a meaningful impact on and sometimes that does not extend to politics which demands having the time to do the homework to make a sound and informed decision. Especially in the overall context of the current state of affairs in the world and even in the USA with our budget, Wikileaks, Anonymous and dirty companies are penny ante bullshit. Not worth the effort at this juncture to try to separate the fact from the baloney on that front. The flip side of that is if something is so overwhelmingly fucked up to the point of being "where do you start", to the point that it can only be fixed through the barrel of a gun or moving of mountains than again the here and now takes priority. So please, drop the "we" shit. You all do what you do. Not like there is anyone that is going to stop you. Certainly not a prole like me who has to be concerned about keeping the bills paid. I keep them paid, and wish the government could do the same so that is about the extent of my political activism. If I don't want to join in on the rest, fine. I have been to college, traveled the world and are about to go back to college. Plenty has been learned and plenty more will be learned but what I do with that knowledge is my business. Maybe we can revisit this sometime in the future when I have more money, time and less perceived ignorance? For now though, day to day life takes up all of my time. Beats me why I even waste any of it on this stupid board.

On a final note, the US government pays my living expenses for another few months. I am going to leave the bricks away from the glass walls as long as I am still bound by the UCMJ. Comprende?

Well, I suppose everyone has their price. Now we know yours.

Funny, I was not aware that military members are being "bought". There are far FAR better paying jobs out there so maybe it isn't about the money? Are all US government workers just being bought off by an evil organization? How about everyone who works at Bank of America? Guess having a job in a tough economy is only good as long as you work at a noncontroversial company.

I have had enough of you. Sanchek, you are from another fucking planet. Either you don't live in the real world or choose to just tune out everything but what serves your own interests. This is what pisses many off towards people who put idealism over common sense. I honestly hope you get put in an a position one day where you mistakenly post something degrading about your employer and they fire you.

It doesn't take an idealist to recognize that your participation in this thread fundamentally lacks integrity. You can get upset and point fingers all you want, but it's obvious that you've been bumping into cognitive dissonance throughout this thread. You're happy to talk about nameless, faceless "fat cats" or a future where all our problems are magically solved by old people dying (perhaps via asteroid), but you turn up the bile duct whenever we look toward the guy that signs your check.

Yup. For 3 more months I have to behave myself and not publicly slander my employer. Look, I have plenty of opinions. Some are even informed, but I can't post them all. If that means I am conflicted, well that is life. I can say this much, that if there was a middle ground that existed between the full disclosure of every deal, negotiation or communication that Wikileaks etc are proponents of and the post 9/11 reality of the Patriot Act etc etc than that might be acceptable to me. The world still needs to keep some secrets, however. For now though, I just got back from China, are in the middle of out processing from the military for terminal leave and then I have to move across the country from DC to Seattle, find an apartment and get enrolled in school all while navigating the muddy waters of the VA funded Post 9/11 GI Bill. Needless to say I am pretty busy. The world might be coming unglued but live goes on.

We're so far on the Patriot Act extreme that it's going to take WikiLeaks-extreme events to have any chance of getting us back to the middle. I'm okay with necessary secrets, in the interest of the greater good (or even sensible privacy, like sealing juvenile court cases).

At this point though, the growth is malignant. We need something to keep them honest for a while and get them back in the habit of not being corrupt, lying scumbags.

Glad to hear you made it back from China in one piece. Seattle's great (except the weather right now).

We're so far on the Patriot Act extreme that it's going to take WikiLeaks-extreme events to have any chance of getting us back to the middle.

Naw. It would only take 1 or two really big oh-shitters to come to the forefront out of the massive dump of a quarter million. The shear volume, which there is no way in heck that private or even Wikileaks bothered to scrub, is just too much. People won't be able to see the forest for the trees.

Seattle's great (except the weather right now).

BAHHH!!! until you've stood in 70 MPH wind with rain driving right through you ya havent lived!!!

you looking to attend Udub Lumm? might want to look for a place just across the Snohomish county line fairly cheaper rents there with good transit options. and if you plan on driving it wont be that bad.

I am planning on starting off at Olympic College in Bremerton to get my math up to speed so I will be living there. Year or two down the line I am going to transfer to Udub. Places in Bremerton I am looking at are near the ferry dock and the college. Heh, kinda tired of moving every year so looking for something that fits both schools so I can stay put for a while.

Looks like Anon won this battle.

http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml