Since we have a very long and well argued thread about Mr. Kerry's war record I thought it only fair that we learn or discuss Mr. Bush's record in Viet Nam.

Here's a summary from straightdope.com http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html:

In January 1968, with the Vietnam war in full swing, Bush was due to graduate from Yale. Knowing he'd soon be eligible for the draft, he took an air force officers' test hoping to secure a billet with the Texas Air National Guard, which would allow him to do his military service at home. Bush didn't do particularly well on the test--on the pilot aptitude section, he scored in the 25th percentile, the lowest possible passing grade. But Bush's father, George H.W., was then a U.S. congressman from Houston, and strings were pulled. The younger Bush vaulted to the head of a long waiting list--a year and a half long, by some estimates--and in May of '68 he was inducted into the guard. By all accounts Bush was an excellent pilot, but apparently his enthusiasm cooled. In 1972, four years into his six-year guard commitment, he was asked to work for the campaign of Bush family friend Winton Blount, who was running for the U.S. Senate in Alabama. In May Bush requested a transfer to an Alabama Air National Guard unit with no planes and minimal duties. Bush's immediate superiors approved the transfer, but higher-ups said no. The matter was delayed for months. In August Bush missed his annual flight physical and was grounded. (Some have speculated that he was worried about failing a drug test--the Pentagon had instituted random screening in April.) In September he was ordered to report to a different unit of the Alabama guard, the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group in Montgomery. Bush says he did so, but his nominal superiors say they never saw the guy, there's no documentation he ever showed up, and not one of the six or seven hundred soldiers then in the unit has stepped forward to corroborate Bush's story.

After the November election Bush returned to Texas, but apparently didn't notify his old Texas guard unit for quite a while, if ever. The Boston Globe initially reported that he started putting in some serious duty time in May, June, and July of 1973 to make up for what he'd missed. But according to a piece in the New Republic, there's no evidence Bush did even that. Whatever the case, even though his superiors knew he'd blown off his duties, they never disciplined him. (No one's ever been shot at dawn for missing a weekend guard drill, but policy at the time was to put shirkers on active duty.) Indeed, when Bush decided to go to business school at Harvard in the fall of 1973, he requested and got an honorable discharge--eight months before his service was scheduled to end.

Bush's enemies say all this proves he was a cowardly deserter. Nonsense. He was a pampered rich kid who took advantage. Why wasn't he called on it in a serious way during the 2000 election? Probably because Democrats figured they'd get Clinton's draft-dodging thing thrown back at them. Not that it matters. If history judges Bush harshly--and it probably will--it won't be for screwing up as a young smart aleck, but for getting us into this damn fool war.

No supporting information but I thought it would be good to start the conversation. Here's another good article to start the conversation:

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671

Yeah too bad Bush isn't running solely on his war record and bragging how he is a war hero. On the other hand Kerry only talks about his war record and ignores his long senate record. Kerry should release his war record, unless he is lying. Bush should release his also, but I think it was allegedly destroyed accidently.

Yeah too bad Bush isn't running solely on his war record and bragging how he is a war hero. On the other hand Kerry only talks about his war record and ignores his long senate record. Kerry should release his war record, unless he is lying.
This thread is not about Kerry's war record...there is another thread for that. You can debate that all you want there.

Bush should release his also, but I think it was allegedly destroyed accidently.
How convenient ;).

I make no value judgments with my original thread...I was curious about others perceptions of his service....differing view points or facts left out or incorrect in the links I posted.

When that Cecil Adams article got published, the greatest debate wasn't over any of the SUBSTANCE of the article -- even the Bush supporters can't argue with any of it, Cecil is normally pretty spot on with his facts -- but that Cecil made the mistake of editorializing with his damned fool war comment at the end.

Quite a furor broke out on the SDMB (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/). Of course, the SDMB is about the world's slowest creature, so you're going to have to look for the threads yourself. I do suppose you'll find SOME rebuttal to Cecil's "facts" (I use them in quotes only because I haven't researched them, not because I don't trust Cecil as mostly unbiased) -- should be good food you haters on both sides.

Yeah thought that was unwise thing to add on the end...as well as the failed drug test thing in the middle.

Unfortunately my URL filter blocks the straight dope forums so I will have to wait until I get home to check them out.

Thanks Pal.

Kerry should release his war record
Your wish....
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html

Been up since late April.

I don't agree with this attack on Bush for this reason:
No supporting information
It's stuff like this and the SVT attacks that prevent any meaningful debate of issues in this country.

Fil

One thread on the vastly-slower-than-I'd-wish-on-most-of-you SDMB is here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=236996

It's mostly links to other "I saw him!" "I never saw him!" posts and articles on other sites.

A quick OT post here.. ..while reading the SDMB, the topic of "Ways to reach first base without getting a hit" was reposted. Most were variations on a theme (dropped sac fly, for example, part of the "Error" category) and while this last one is technically a variation on "pinch runner," it's nonetheless a cool bit of trivia.

[Paraphrasing] Should a game be suspended with a runner on first, and the make-up game is played after the player has been TRADED, a substitue gets on first. :)

Sorry, continue debating war records.

Lemme clarify my statement a bit, I mean his whole record, including his medical record while he was in Vietnam. Right now Kerry has only released the parts that make him look good.

What parts are missing?

Your a fucking idiot Lleauaric, Kerry is withholding all his medical treatment records concerning his medals. Why is he not releasing them? Is he lying about something?

To the person that said this and gave me bad rep:

no facts to back up the acticles many assumptions Maybe you should read a bit slower. I said at the beginning of the thread:

No supporting information but I thought it would be good to start the conversation.
...and Tibbert, go to the thread on Kerry if you want to discuss his military service.

You say you make no value judgments, just wanted to spark debate, but you post a piece with a very specific value judgment and very specific opinion from a very biased source. Why bother trying to play that game?

Your a fucking idiot Lleauaric, Kerry is withholding all his medical treatment records concerning his medals. Why is he not releasing them? Is he lying about something? My my, arent we testy.. ask a simple question and the little boy loses his temper. There, there...relax, take a deep breath. Now, Why so defensive?

HEY!! Michael Moore is fat!! George Bush is dumb! Kerry looks like a friggin' horse! Edwards is a pretty boy! Kennedy is a drunkard! Kucinich looks like a goblin! Dean is a crazy man! Cheney is a stooge of Haliburton! Rove is pulling all the strings! Nader is a spoiler in this election! O'Reily is a pompus ass!! Al Franken is a spitefull little fibber! L2 is awesome! Coulter is a Nazi she-devil!! Democrats lie! Republicans lie! Sadaam is a mass-murdering bastard! Terrorists like to spit pig bllod on the Koran! Bin Laden is the son of a three-legged camel! Liberals hug trees! Conservatives hate the poor! Hippies smell bad! Independents are wishy-washy arseholes who can't make up their minds! Lie! Lie! Lie! Hate! Hate! Hate!

Now that this thread is summed up..
http://www.unknownwriter.com/photos/animals_cute/1_puppies.jpeg


Because, lord knows, we can all use some cute puppies now and again! Especially you Tidbit!

Why bother trying to play that game?
Because it was a good summation of what I heard here and there from various reports. I wanted to know if it was fact, spin, or false.

very specific opinion from a very biased source
Is it? Do you have an account that isn't biased or even one that sums it up from the other point of view? Not being facetious....just want to hear the other side.

L2 is awesome!
The only one I take exception to :p

I want a puppy.

'Your a fucking idiot Lleauaric'

- The Conservatives around here are just too easy.

I love partisans. Anything about anything remotely touching on something that might be a military record is somehow about Kerry!

Anyone with a registered political party affiliation shouldn't have the right to vote :(

Kerry left out all the stuff that exposes his lies. For instance the after action reports that would show that he was never anywhere near Cambodia where he claims to have spent Christmas being shot at by a group that didnt even exist yet and listening to a President who wasn't even in office yet deny that he was where he wasn't.

It would be nice to see the after action report done nine days after the incident leading to his first purple heart where he admits that he had yet to receive fire from any enemies too.

Kind of reminds me of Al Gore's teary eyed speech talking about experiencing his brother's death and his brother's last words when he was hundreds of miles away and hadn't visited his brother for some time.

Would be nice to see the media pursue Kerry's record with the same fervor they went after Bush's guard service.



Over at JohnKerry.com, you can read "After-action" reports — first-hand accounts written immediately following combat — from Mr. Kerry's Vietnam tour. Strangely, the reports extend only as far back as February 1969. In the absence of these reports, the public can only pit one version of events with another.
Why is any of this important? Mr. Kerry has made his Vietnam experiences the focal point in his campaign. Indeed, the candidate wants voters to judge his Vietnam service as reflecting the qualities needed in a commander in chief. It is not Mr. Kerry's detractors who have placed Vietnam at the forefront of the campaign, it is Mr. Kerry himself. As such, his testimonials both during and after his tour should be subject to verification and debate.
Moreover, it is not beyond the realm of the media to discover whether or not Mr. Kerry was truthful on the floor of the Senate, nor should it be beyond Mr. Kerry to answer such a charge. The inconsistencies in Mr. Kerry's Cambodia story should be explained, either by an inquisitive press corps or by the Kerry campaign itself.

Hey!
Welcome back
/hugs

Thanks LL. Insane week trying to catch up with work while hobbling along on my poor sore feet.

So let me sum this up:
Both presidential candidates are rich boys with a smudgy past within the military. Bush dodged the draft by becoming a coked-up pilot in the national guard, whereas Kerry bailed out of 'nam by firing a mortar shell too close to his own boat - scoring a couple of purple hearts in the process, and then taking a medical leave.

Face it people, both of your presidential candidates are complete cowards.

EDIT: Okey, I thought about it some and I came to the conclusion that it was pretty dumb of me to call Kerry & Bush cowards for trying to skip out of a war. At least a good 90% of the world's population would skip out of any war, at any time.

I still think Kerry will win simply by not being Bush, though.

And PS: Consider that when you compare Bush vs Kerry in the terms of war records, remember that the one that hasn't even been overseas is the one that's starting wars overseas (he also has the vice president who's made the least ovserseas diplomatic trips, ever, but that's a different can of worms altogether).

he also has the vice president who's made the least ovserseas diplomatic trips, ever, but that's a different can of worms altogether


He's also the first president to go to Iraq...I guess you forgot about that while you called him a coward. Going to ground zero with everything going on over there was something no president had done since Eisenhower had visited frontlines in Korea.

I already know what the response to this will be, but I'll make two points anyway.

Kerry and his party have been the ones making an issue out of comparing service history during Vietnam. Something you would think Kerry would be embarrassed about considering he claims to have committed various atrocities including murder.

Bush's early life by all accounts was less than exemplary in terms of personal achievement and drive. If it's true that he technically did not fulfill his requirements in his last year and a half of National Guard service, it sort of fits with what his underwhelming motivation at the time. Personally I think it's a relevant question, despite the fact that it's funny how it's suddenly such a big issue for the democrats who in the past have gladly ignored the issue of questions about the service history of their candidates.


I think it's Kerry's strategy to continue to push the Vietnam issue to avoid as much as possible attention being brought to his voting record and a direct comparison on issues. In this comparison of service records he can push the fantasy that he is a strong leader which he has proven since he is not, and that he might be strong on defense, which he has proven since he is not.

He said vp Crist0. They crucify Cheney in Europe. The "tin foil hat" conspiracy theories as Halo calls them help distract the masses from the oil corruption in their own countries. The only thing the BBC talks about Halliburton is how the US is destroying the world.

To be honest, I could care less about either of their dated war records. Sure, it plays a part in whether or not the candidate is (re)elected... but, does it have anything to do with their ability to lead the country once they're put in that position?

No, except it seems to be what Kerry is running on. I think it would be more reasonable to discuss Kerry's innate trust of the North Vietnamese government and his statement that it was ridiculous to believe that they would perpetrate a bloodbath in South Vietnam if we abandoned our allies to them. Which we eventually did and which they eventually did.. and continued to do into the 80s.


Would he propose the same solution in Iraq? It's sort of the same situation. Sentiment is against the war, yet we need to stick it out as long as it takes rather than follow popular sentiment. As Kerry seems to be enslaved to.

He's also the first president to go to Iraq...I guess you forgot about that while you called him a coward
Is he bringing the fake turkey?

Is he bringing the fake turkey?Are you going?

[QUOTE=Kivorn]



I still think Kerry will win simply by not being Bush, though.

QUOTE]

As a Bush supporter, I have to say that atm this appears to be more true than ever. The electoral college is swinging to Kerry. Even in Florida. And this is a state that his own brother is the Governor of.

The election is far from over but at this moment I am concerned.

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by partiotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
-Julius Caesar.

http://minutillo.com/steve/weblog/images/fake-turkey.jpg

It is actually kind of appropriate.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/images/20040628-9-sovereignty-sm.jpg

Was that Caesar, the tyrannical dictator you were comparing Bush to?

Now L2 denies that Bush went to Iraq and served turkey to our troops. Are you in some alternate universe or what?

There is no comparison to the two individuals.
He was only in office for 4 years (47-44) after illegally taking power in a scheme which subverted the legislature. He spent 3 of the years in wars in the middle east (Egypt). His long and unnecessary stay there blinded him to the real problems to the East and created a power vacuum that was filled by his rivals.
As Bernard Shaw says in his evaluation of Caesar: a man too magnanimous to be insulted, has nothing to forgive. However, no matter how much clemency and forgiveness he displayed, the Roman aristocracy could not fail to hate him. At the same time, his own supporters were beginning to become increasingly hostile. Many of these men, destitute when they joined Caesar, had hoped to attain riches and glory in the fruits of his victory, but Caesar could not, and probably would not, satisfy their lusts. In his ambition and quest for glory, Caesar was no different from the average Roman noble of his time, nor in his willingness to put his own honor above the safety of the state

What drove Caesar on to his own doom? Seneca perhaps puts it best:

"Glory, ambition, and the refusal to set bounds to his own pre-eminence."

No comparison at all.

No Akipt, he was there.. but the plastic man had a plastic turkey.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A33090-2003Dec3?language=printer

"As a spy chief and a general in the former Soviet satellite of Romania, I produced the very same vitriol Kerry repeated to the U.S. Congress almost word for word and planted it in leftist movements throughout Europe. KGB chairman Yuri Andropov managed our anti-Vietnam War operation. He often bragged about having damaged the U.S. foreign-policy consensus, poisoned domestic debate in the U.S., and built a credibility gap between America and European public opinion through our disinformation operations. Vietnam was, he once told me, 'our most significant success'." - Ion Mihai Pacepa on John Kerry (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/pacepa200402260828.asp)



Oh no he held up a plastic turkey for a photo op. You got him you're right he's unfit to be president. Awesome... keep up the great work.



In matters of style, swim with the current;
In matters of principle, stand like a rock.
- T. Jefferson

A contractor had roasted and primped the turkey to adorn the buffet line, while the 600 soldiers were served from cafeteria-style steam trays, the officials said. They said the bird was not placed there in anticipation of Bush's stealthy visit, and military sources said a trophy turkey is a standard feature of holiday chow lines.
Crist0's right, your links always prove you wrong.

Looking for WMD?
and look how much of that he had cut already! he must have been there all of 30 sces.
Rove: "Ok.. now just carefully open up the pre cut incision.. careful now.. we almost lost you from a peanut and falling off a seguy... Ok.. Smile.. we got the shot.. great, now move away from the turkey before these people think you are actually going to serve them."
Crist0's right, your links always prove you wrong. Not for eating.. a show turkey.. he wasnt delivering squat. Photo Op
http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/01/60/98/image_298601.gif

our most significant success' Wow.. such amazing success that they no longer exist.. Ever think we WON because people in this country have the freedom to critize?


"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."
Theodore Roosevelt

Not for eating.. a show turkey.. he wasnt delivering squat. This fake too?

http://www.alphapatriot.com/home/images/pictures/Bush/BushIraqiThanksgiving02.jpg

http://www.alphapatriot.com/home/images/pictures/Bush/BushIraqiThanksgiving06.jpg

http://www.alphapatriot.com/home/images/pictures/Bush/BushIraqiThanksgiving07.jpg

http://www.alphapatriot.com/home/images/pictures/Bush/BushIraqiThanksgiving08.jpg

http://www.alphapatriot.com/home/images/pictures/Bush/BushIraqiThanksgiving04.jpg

The squat is real

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040803/i/r3095612652.jpg

No sweet lovin' til you sign the check baby.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/swiftboat.gif


A group of more than 220 veterans who served in Sen. John Kerry's swift-boat unit in Vietnam are calling on the presumptive Democratic presidential candidate to stop unauthorized use of their images in national campaign advertising.

One veteran in the photo, William Shumadine, said, "His use of a photograph with his 19 comrades with knowledge that 11 of them condemn him and six who cannot or do not want to be involved is a complete misrepresentation to the public and a total fraud."


http://www.iowapresidentialwatch.com/images/KerryVietnamUnit.JPG

http://www.mudvillegazette.com/images/bang.jpg


July 31, 2004 -- SCRANTON, Pa. — John Kerry's heavily hyped cross-country bus tour stumbled out of the blocks yesterday, as a group of Marines publicly dissed the Vietnam War hero in the middle of a crowded restaurant.

Kerry was treating running mate Sen. John Edwards and his wife, Elizabeth, to a Wendy's lunch in Newburgh, N.Y., for their 27th wedding anniversary — an Edwards family tradition — when the candidate approached four Marines and asked them questions.

The Marines — two in uniform and two off-duty — were polite but curt while chatting with Kerry, answering most of his questions with a "yes, sir" or "no, sir." . . .

"He imposed on us and I disagree with him coming over here shaking our hands," one Marine said, adding, "I'm 100 percent against [him]."

A sergeant with 10 years of service under his belt said, "I speak for all of us. We think that we are doing the right thing in Iraq," before saying he is to be deployed there in a few weeks and is "eager" to go and serve.


Kerry is demanding to be made president on the basis of spending four months in Vietnam 35 years ago. And yet the men who know what he did during those four months don't think he's fit to be dogcatcher. That seems newsworthy to me, but I must be wrong since the media have engineered a total blackout of the Swift Boat Veterans.

In May, the Swiftees held a spellbinding press conference in Washington, D.C. In front of a photo being used by the Kerry campaign to tout Kerry's war service, the officers stood up, one by one, pointed to their own faces in the campaign photo, and announced that they believed Kerry unfit for command. Only one officer in the photo supports Kerry for president. Seventeen say he is not fit to be president.

The press covered it much as they covered Paula Jones' first press conference.

With the media playing their usual role as Truth Commissar for the now-dead Soviet Union, the Swiftees are having to purchase ad time in order to be heard. No Tim Russert interviews, no "Today" show appearances, no New York Times editorials or Vanity Fair hagiographies for these heretics against the liberal religion. The only way Swift Boat Veterans for Truth could get less attention would be to go on "Air America" radio.

If the 254 veterans against Kerry got one-tenth as much media coverage for calling Kerry a liar as Clown Joe Wilson did for calling Bush a liar, the veterans wouldn't need to buy ad time to get their message out. (Wilson, you'll recall, was a media darling for six or seven months before being exposed as a fantasist by Senate investigators.)



The Fonda-Hayden trip becamehttp://www.truthorfiction.com/images/fondapic2.jpg unforgettable because it infuriated Americans, especially Americans in uniform, many of whom still regard her as a traitor. She praised the North Vietnamese, posed for a photo at a Communist anti-aircraft gun emplacement, made several radio broadcasts for the Communist North Vietnamese in which she called American military leaders "war criminals," then when some of the POWs returned home and described mistreatment by the North Vietnamese, she said Americans should "...not hail the POWs as heroes, because they are hypocrites and liars." There is no dispute that her visit took place, that her words and actions were in support of the enemy, and that her conduct caused harm to the war effort and to some of the prisoners of war.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/kerrymuseum1.jpg





Epstein said the display photograph's "unquestionable significance lies in its placement in the American protesters' section of the War Crimes Museum" in Ho Chi Minh City, the former Saigon. "The Vietnamese communists clearly recognize John Kerry's contributions to their victory," he said. "This find can be compared to the discovery of a painting of Neville Chamberlain hanging in a place of honor in Hitler's Eagle's Nest in 1945."




...I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....



"When John Kerry spoke out to America, labeling all Vietnam veterans as thugs and murderers, I was shocked and almost brought to my knees...Tragically, some veterans, scorned by the antiwar movement and their allies, retreated to a life of despair and suicide. Two of my crewmates were among them. For that there is no forgiveness." -- Richard O'Mara
"In a whole year that I spent patrolling, I didn't see anything like a war crime, an atrocity, anything like that. Time and again I saw American fighting men put themselves in graver danger...When John Kerry returned to the country, he was sworn in front of Congress, and then he told my family -- my parents, my sister, my brother, my neighbors -- he told everyone I knew and everyone I'd ever know that I and my comrades had committed unspeakable atrocities." -- David Wallace

"(Kerry) encouraged our enemies to rebuild and hang on when they were near defeat...Did you know our POWs had John Kerry's words quoted to them by their interrogators?" -- Retired U.S. Navy SEAL captain with service in Vietnam, John Bailey

[Kerry] claimed that the 500,000 men and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains -- there were no heroes. In 2004, one "hero" from the Vietnam War has appeared, [Kerry], running for President of the United States... It just galls one to think about it." -- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired)

Although some disagree with the war in Iraq, America has been extremely supportive of our brave troops, largely because of our deep guilt over our shameful past toward our heroic Vietnam vets. To now name Kerry as President, the perpetrator of atrocities while leading a movement against vets, would be another slap in their face. How much more abuse are Vietnam vets to take? Naming Kerry would be worse than naming one of the Abu Ghraib prison guards, because they didn’t come back and testify to Congress and the media that all soldiers everywhere are as villainous as they.

http://www.rmdy.com/images/morans/morans.jpg
Above: Republican "base"

Can Kerry beat Bush?

Analysts agree on what a stupid fucking question that is.

"Can Kerry beat Bush? Hmm," Presidential Historian Jane Seymour let the question roll off her tongue in all its absurdity. "Well, let's see. Can our commander-in-chief choke on a pretzel, pass out, and bang his head on the coffee table? The answer to all of these questions is the same. Uh, hello. Yeah."

There are doubts, however. Democratic strategists admit that they are up against an incumbent president who has bankrupted the treasury, lost two million jobs, isolated the United States from its allies, and preemptively invaded and occupied Iraq to gain access to its huge oil reserves.

"Republicans eat that stuff up!" former Clinton campaign manager James Carville said. "Bush has really rallied his base."

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0402/3c885b567c908f12f40b.jpeg
Caption: While seldom seen wearing them in public, Bush is encouraged by his handlers to wear safety goggles when using pointy objects like writing utensils or silverware. Fortunately, Dubya rarely uses either. Even still, Seymour said one of the things Kerry has going for him is the fact that he did not lie the country into a war in which more than 500 American soldiers had been killed.

"I can see voters, even some conservatives, getting kind of pissed off about that," she said. "Because usually when a president says he is going to invade a country to disarm it of weapons of mass destruction, it's better for him, politically, if he wasn't lying his ass off."

Indeed, interested observers note that other questions hang over the president's head in relation to intelligence issues, for instance, whether he has any or not.

"Did Bush not get enough oxygen as a fetus?" Alan Jameson of Tulsa, Oklahoma inquired. "It just seems like sometimes when he has that dopey looking grin on his face that all of his neurons aren't firing."

All of these criticisms of the president bode well for Kerry, who, by all accounts, is able to enjoy snacks without the assistance of an emergency medical team.

Another feather in Kerry's cap is his distinguished career in public service, first as a decorated Vietnam veteran and then as a respected Senator.
George Bush also served his country bravely during the Vietnam war as a member of the Air National Guard in Alabama, although his superior officers can't remember ever seeing him on duty.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0402/76fa102ebb775c1bbb62.jpeg
Caption: Above, John Kerry, decorated Vietnam veteran. Below, George W. Bush, frat-boy cheerleader. President Bush's first foray into elected office came by accident on a trip to Cancun with his fraternity brothers.

"I got so toasted one night that they all unanimously elected me to be the mayor of Margaritaville," he said. "Many of the responsibilities of that office prepared me for my role as leader of the free world...like giving orders to foreigners."

Still, Kerry may not be able to escape the "Massachussetts liberal" label sure to be used against him by the Bush/Cheney reelection campaign should he win the nomination.

Millions of Fox-watching Americans have bought into the idea that "liberal" is synonomous with "communist" and Massachussetts is the Socialist Republic of East Coast Elitism.

Nevertheless, experts say that is better than the alternative--a "Lonestar Loser." George Bush: Male Cheerleader and vehemently against homosexuality... hmm me thinks someone is trying to overcompensatehttp://www.fotosearch.com/thumb/ICL/ICL132/SCV_011C.jpg

But then again, when given a chance to show his clear grasp of policy and articulate a formed and reason position.. he never hesitates to deliver.

http://www.fivaxis.com/sovereignty.wmv

I'm shocked that you could find a link on libweb to him stumbling over a question. Go Buckeyes... oh I meant the big M! I'm a great sports fan Yooohoooo!


I'm also interested that you were able to find an article on a socialist website with the ironic name of freepressed ridiculing President Bush. What's the world coming to.

http://www.tinyvital.com/Misc/KerryHonoredByCommunists2.htm

http://www.liberalscum.com/images/Kerrycover.jpg

Filed under:

Burkas for Barbie Dolls (http://www.la4israel.org/wordpress/category/burkas-for-barbie-dolls/)
— aaron @ 5:38 pm
http://www.la4israel.org/images2004/hamas-human-shields-11Feb2004.jpg


Original AP caption: A masked Hamas militant sets up a makeshift mortar launcher against Israeli forces, unseen, as Palestinian youths try to cover him from the sight of the forces during an incursion in a Gaza city’s neighborhood, Wednesday Feb. 11, 2004. Israeli troops moved into a neighborhood at the eastern edge of Gaza City early Wednesday, killing atleast 14 Palestinians and wounding at least 27 others in exchanges of fire, residents said, sparking the bloodiest fighting in Gaza in four months. (AP Photo/Adel Hana)

Can we now redefine “willing human shield” as a “voluntary combatant”?
Liberal base.

"Beware of those who will fight a sensitive and thoughtful war .... for I have done this in 'nam.... and it didn't work then either....I am John Kerry"


:)

"America has been in too many wars for any of our wishes, but not a one of them was won by being sensitive."2 Cheney neglected to mention that President Bush and other top administration officials - including Cheney himself - have publicly called for "sensitive" use of American military power. Here is a selection:

On 3/4/01, at the christening of the U.S.S. Ronald Reagan, President Bush said "because America is powerful, we must be sensitive about expressing our power and influence."3

On 1/7/03, Gen. Richard Myers, the chairman of the president's Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that the administration asks "our troops to go out there and be, on the one hand, very sensitive to cultural issues, on the other hand, be ready to respond in self-defense to a very ticklish situation."4

On 4/13/03, Cheney said, "We recognize that the presence of U.S. forces can in some cases present a burden on the local community. We're not insensitive to that. We work almost on a continual basis with the local officials to remove points of friction and reduce the extent to which problems arise in terms of those relationships."5

Sources:

1. "Cheney blasts Kerry for 'sensitive' remark," Chicago Sun-Times, 08/13/04.
2. Ibid.
3. "Remarks by the President at Christening Ceremony for the USS Ronald Reagan," The White House, 03/04/01.
4. "DoD News Briefing - Secretary Rumsfeld and Gen. Myers," US Department of Defense, 01/07/03.
5. "Remarks by the Vice President at the Washington Post-Yomiuri Shimbun Symposium," The White House, 04/13/04.

http://www.honestreporting.com/graphics/articles/corrie.jpg

Liberal base.

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http://mhintze.tripod.com/issues/wallofshame/photos/Linda_Tripp.jpg

http://mhintze.tripod.com/issues/wallofshame/photos/Pat_Robertson.jpg
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Crist0, dodging draft and sending other people to die isn't what I call a brave man. He's behind a fucking desk.

The brave people of america are those dying for their country right now as we speak.

I've completely lost where this thread has gone....

Funny though.

Like always, a semi useful discussion degenerates into a flamefest where the only defense is to counter flame for flame. You got anymore ignorant propaganda about stem cell research or should we just stick to pointless stereotypes of liberal and conservative voters?

You got anymore ignorant propaganda about stem cell research or should we just stick to pointless stereotypes of liberal and conservative voters?

I vote for pointless sterotypes!

Mr. Johnson said, "I believe you're referring to an incident that happened near Cambodia. Okay, well John Kerry has said on the record that he had a mistaken recollection earlier. He talked about a combat situation on Christmas Eve, 1968, which at one point he said occurred in Cambodia. He has since corrected the record to say it was someplace on a river near Cambodia and he is certain that at some point subsequent to that he was in Cambodia. My recollection, my understanding is he was not certain about that date.

Mr. Kilmead brought up Sen. Kerry's 1986 floor speech in the Senate where he talked about spending Christmas in Cambodia as being "seared---seared" in his memory. Mr. Johnson replied, "I believe he's corrected the record to say it was someplace near Cambodia, but he is not certain whether it was actually in Cambodia but he is certain that there was some point subsequent to that that he was in Cambodia."





On the floor of the Senate on March 27, 1986, Sen. John Kerry issued this statement: "I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared — seared — in me."
Mr. Kerry's statement at the time was similar to other statements he had made after returning from duty in Vietnam, and throughout much of the 1970s. Writing for the Boston Herald in October 1979, Mr. Kerry said this: "I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."





Yeah it was just seared in him.



Just one problem. It never happened. Every living officer up his chain of command says Kerry was never ordered to Cambodia. At least three of his five crewmen say their boat was never in Cambodia. And if you don't believe any of his fellow veterans, read the excerpt from Kerry's own journal published in Tour Of Duty, the recent hagiography by Douglas Brinkley.

On December 24 1968, Kerry was at Sa Dec – that's well inside Vietnam, 55 miles from the Cambodian border – and waxing wistful to his diary about a quiet Christmas far from home: "Visions of sugarplums really do dance through your head and you think of stockings and snow and roast chestnuts and fires with birch logs and all that is good and warm and real. It's Christmas Eve."

I'm Vietnammed out. But it's the centrepiece of Kerry's campaign: the other day, asked a straightforward question about 9/11, he stuck to the current millennium for a good 20 seconds and then veered off into "the war that I fought in was a war where we saw America lose its support for the war, where the soldiers came back having had to do what our soldiers are doing today, carry an M-16 in another country, try to tell the difference between friend and foe. I know what it's like to go out at night on patrol", etc, etc. So, since Vietnam seems to be the only subject on which he has anything to say, it would be reassuring to know that at least he's got that right.

For most of his adult life John Kerry has peddled as his central Vietnam anecdote – the one that drove him to turn on his nation's leaders – what appears to be a complete fantasy. Why would he do such a thing? If there's a good answer to that question, maybe someone in his doting press pack would like to ask it.





All the guys in the photo that Kerry uses of his "band of brothers" of whom only one now supports him, except the ones that are dead or can't be contacted, have signed affidavits testifying that they were never in nor could they have even accidentally entered Cambodia. Most of these guys were there for over a year and Kerry was only there for 4 months.

All those guys dispute Kerry's claims of atrocities, and when confronted, Kerry himself only says that he participated in free fire zones and therefore war crimes. However his testimony was much different when it served his political cause to call his fellow soldiers rapists and murderers, aiding the cause of the enemy in Vietnam and parroting the words of the Soviet propaganda machine.

George W. Bush on sacrifice:
"I've been to war. I've raised twins. If I
had a choice, I'd rather go to war."
Houston Chronicle, January 2002

The Guard on Bush:
"George Walker Bush is one member of the younger generation who doesn't get his kicks from pot or hashish or speed.... As far as kicks are concerned, Lt. Bush gets his from the roaring afterburner of the F-102."
Texas Air National Guard press release, March 1970 (interestingly they dont mention booze and coke)

Bush on lessons learned:
"I learned some good lessons from Vietnam. First, there must be a clear mission. Secondly, the politics ought to stay out of fighting a war. There was too much politics during the Vietnam War."
Associated Press, March 2002

February 1968:
Bush takes an Air Force officers test.
Scores in 25th percentile in the pilot aptitude portion.
Declares that he does not wish to serve overseas.

May 27, 1968:
Bush enlists in Texas Air National Guard.
Aided by Texas House Speaker Ben Barnes, he jumps over waiting list.
He pledges two years of active duty and four years of reserve duty.

June 9, 1968:
Bush's student deferment expires.

Bush on why the Air National Guard took him:
"They could sense I would be one of the great pilots of all time."
Houston Chronicle, August 1988

September 1968:
After basic training, Bush pulls inactive duty to act as gopher on Florida Senator Edward J. Gurney's campaign.

November 1969:
Bush is flown to the White House by President Nixon for a date with daughter Tricia.

December 1969:
Bush transfers to Houston and moves into Chateaux Dijon complex. Laura lives there too, but they don't meet till later.

March 1970:
Bush gets his wings.

June 1970:
Joins the Guard's "Champagne Unit," where he flies with sons of Texas' elite.

November 1968:
After Gurney wins, Bush is reactivated and transferred to Georgia.

November 3, 1970:
George Bush Sr. loses Senate election to Lloyd Bentsen, whose son is also in the "Champagne Unit."

November 7, 1970:
Promoted to first lieutenant. Rejected by University of Texas School of Law.

January 1971:
The Guard begins testing for drugs during physicals.

Spring 1971:
Hired by Texas agricultural importer, Bush uses F-102 to shuttle tropical plants from Florida.

May 26, 1972:
Transfers to Alabama Guard unit so he can work on Senator William Blount's reelection campaign. According to his commanding officer, Bush never shows up for duty while in Alabama, nor can anyone confirm he ever serves in the Guard again

August 1972:
Bush is grounded for missing a mandatory physical.

November 1972:
Bush returns to Houston, but never reports for Guard duty.

December 1972:
In D.C. for the holidays, Bush takes 16-year-old brother Marvin drinking and driving. Confronted by father, Bush suggests they settle it "mano a mano."

October 1, 1973:
The Air National Guard relieves Bush from commitment eight months early, allowing him to attend Harvard Business School. (Pretty good for a C student.. must have gotten in because the Cheerleading team needed a new catcher)


Flash Foward
- U.S. military deaths: 936 -
-Deaths among non-U.S. coalition forces: 125 (64 British)
- Iraqi civilian (non-combatant) deaths: 11,510-13,483

Crist0, dodging draft and sending other people to die isn't what I call a brave man.
Well then we agree on Clinton.

Bush didn't dodge the draft however..you see, when you volunteer for military service before you can be drafted..that isn't dodging a draft. As for sending people to die..that choice wasn't exactly made by him, he was and is responding to a threat to the civilized world. Even Kerry says he would have gone into Iraq now(well, maybe..it's possible he's flipped back to not agreeing, or even flipped from agreeing to not to agreeing to not to agreeing again by now).

Well then we agree on Clinton.
Clinton and Bush did the EXACT same thing morally and practically speaking. Only difference is that Clinton didnt have Daddys Bling bling and connections to get him a cushy spot he wasnt qualified for.

he was and is responding threat to the civilized world.
When did he do that? Did we take out Iran when I wasnt looking?

Now, maybe you can say "what he mistakenly THOUGHT was a threat to civilized world" That at least has a thread of credibility to it. Or are we still sticking to "Teh sand ate them" theory.

Yeah Crist0, you keep up with those excuses.
How many hours did he serve in the national guard again?
No wait, old topic.

He dodged the draft. You know it, you're just tripping around it trying to duck a blow for your clandestine hero.

As for Clinton, he was a lying scumbag of a coward. He was still a better prez than Bush for all his erros and flaws. It just doesn't get much more fucked up than the way Bush was elected or how he's acted as a president.

Its kinda funny.. the Republicans have stopped resembling a political party and started resembling a collection of apologists and excuse makers.

More like the Family of Micheal Jackson than the party of Lincoln.

When did he do that? Did we take out Iran when I wasnt looking? No, fool, it was North Korea! Kim Il is in chains and his people are being saved from starvation as we speak. Don't you read the papers? http://69.50.212.152/images/smilies/frown.gif

Sorry, forgot to take my Soma today. That is double plus ungood!

It just doesn't get much more fucked up than the way Bush was elected or how he's acted as a president.

Yes, FUCK HIM for being elected legally in a great example of how our electoral college system is supposed to work and for responding to the largest attack on our soil since Pearl Harbor. The bastard even waited over a year trying to go the diplomatic route before we went into Iraq.

What an ass he is, and how terrible is the US.


Its kinda funny.. the Republicans have stopped resembling a political party and started resembling a collection of apologists and excuse makers.

Excuse me Senator Kerry, are you willing to release all of your military records?

Excuse me Senator Kerry, your "Christmas in Cambodia" stories do not add up, would you care to explain?

Excuse me Senator Kerry, but all of your commanding officers and the vast majority of your fellow swift boat commanders have come forth saying you have distorted your record in Vietnam, any comment?

Excuse me Senator Kerry, why haven't you touched on your voting record at all in this election?

Excuse me President Bush, Why are 1000+ Americans dead in Iraq?

Why are 1000+ Americans dead in Iraq?As John Edwards stated, Iraq was the most serious and imminent threat to the U.S.

Or, as Kerry stated, knowing what we know now on the question of invading Iraq, "You bet we might have." ?!? Nice and decisive. You could also look at Kerry's statements before he changed his opinion to suit the peaceniks of the democratic party.

Yeah. How about that? The majority of the people of the United States voted *against* him, he won due to a court order giving him the victory in the state where his brother is governor.

Winning an election due to a court order isn't a "great example" of how Democracy, Demos - of the people, should work. It's pathetic.

So, did he bribe Nader to enter this election as well? Not like he could've won without him in the first one.

I'm not saying Kerry is great. I'm saying calling Bush, the way he elected, or his actions correct and heroic is... dumb. He's your president, I get why you back him. But he'll never be remembered as "one of the great presidents of the united states". Neither domestically nor internationally.

So, did he bribe Nader to enter this election as well? That's quite unlikely. However, Republicans have put forth serious effort to get Nader on the ballot in some states.

I didn't really believe that one myself, Thormir. It was just rhetorics to prove a point.

As John Edwards stated, Iraq was the most serious and imminent threat to the U.S. Who gave the order? Who is accountable?

The way some of you crow on and on about we should support the president in a time of war undercut your own legs when you pull crap like that. Have faith in the president only to have that used against you.
Kerry didnt make the call, Edwards didnt make the call. Cheney and Bush did. And they were wrong. And they will pay for it with their jobs.
Now that is the Law of the Jungle -- as old and as true as the sky;
And the Wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the Wolf that shall break it must die.

But despite all the assertions of treason and hate from the neo cons, we all love the USA. Its just that they seem to love the country in the same way a 4 year old loves his mommy. Mommy can do no wrong and mommy is perfect. Others tend to look at like a partnership or a marriage. It needs work, and it needs effort, and you have to have tough times to get to the good ones. And sometimes its quarrelsome and its ardous, but its worth it if you are willing to put the work in. (paraphrased)

The hate and all the other emotions that you've allowed yourself to be governed by can only get you so far L2. After Bush wins by 5+ points this November and all you've got to hang onto are all these unhindged emotions, you're going to crash pretty hard.

Seek help beforehand.

[QUOTE=Kivorn]Yeah. How about that? The majority of the people of the United States voted *against* him, he won due to a court order giving him the victory in the state where his brother is governor.
QUOTE]

Kivorn, you are a little off the mark here. Yes, the popular vote was won by Gore.... but we use an electoral college that is representative of the people. And he "won" the popular vote in Florida and was awarded the electoral college votes after Gore took it to the Florida court to try to "steal" it.

However, you are correct that Bush lost the popular vote nation wide.

Yeah Bise, the 2000 elections were a real eye opener in regards to how your electoral system works :)

For me, which is raised with a multi-party system that calculates vote percentages directly, it's simply an atrocious way to do political business.

Right now the system is working against my choice of the two candidates.... while Bush is in the ballpark popular-wise, he is losing ground abysmally electoral-wise....

Who gave the order?Kerry, Edwards, and most of the rest of Congress approved the order. Bush carried out Congress's order as CIC.

Who is accountable for the mistakes in intelligence? That is a discussion that is worthy of volumes. But, to say that all intelligence mistakes are somehow Bush's fault or that he should be held accountable for them is a dangerous proposition. Electing Kerry will not solve the problems in our intelligence community.

Yeah Bise, the 2000 elections were a real eye opener in regards to how your electoral system works


It works perfectly. Rural folks shouldnt be enslaved to urban folks. We've got a much larger country here, with much greater regional diversity.

I approve of the war in Iraq. We're fighting terrorists directly both in Afghanistan and Iraq. Edwards and Kerry agreed with it until it became unpopular. Bush has stuck to course of action even when it turned unpopular. I'm more than happy to compare the three on those grounds.

After Bush wins by 5+ points this November and all you've got to hang onto are all these unhindged emotions, you're going to crash pretty hard.
Well, every single analyst ive listened to, Dem, Rep, whatever... seems to think that Bush has two critical times that he NEEDS about a 8-12 point bounce to have a chance. He NEEDS a significant bounce from the convention, and most people seem to think there really isnt anything there to bounce. The other thing he needs is a significant boost from 9/11 events. If he isnt ahead of Kerry by that week, He is pretty much toast.
He is losing ground in key areas and states. He has pretty much lost Florida. The economic rebound is faultering and the situation in Iraq is bordering on pretty fucking bad. Al-Sadr is problem that I dont see a solution to. Its not a problem you can kill your way out of and its not a option to negotiate with this mad man whos objective is to overthrow the government.and install an Iranian theocracy.


[quote]Seek help beforehand.

The economic recovery is faultering? The libs have started to try the whittle spin on the economy, but lets see how things go for the next couple months shall we.

The situation is Iraq is actually pretty good compared to what it could be.

Yeah I'm pretty sure Bush isn't going to win, but I think it's more of a personality issue. If he was more of an effective speaker and personable he could overcome the red herrings, but he just can't. You have to be an effective communicator to be reelected.

The recovery is faultering. It just is.. at least for the last 2 months job growth was WELL below expectations. like.. 20% of what was projected. The optimist may say "HEY.. its still growth". And thats noted, however... it may also signal a downward trend. Unless growth meets and or exceeds prjections for this month, it will be an issue that wont be neutral, it will work against Bush.

And the situation is pretty fucking bad in Iraq. yes I guess it COULD be hemmoraging in civil war.... but, we really arent that far from that.
Look, Al Sadr just played chicken with the United States, and won. We called off the assault. I cant critize THAT call, because it is such a tricky situation and there really is no win.
But the way I see it, Al Sadr is almost suicidal. He is intentionally provoking the US to act in the most overt way possible. We have done everything we can to try to repair the situation, but in all honesty at this point we have to consider the option that there is no solution. Al Sadr MAY be under the influence or control of a third unnamed party that is looking to create a martyr out of him in order to create a situation they can exploit (/wave Iran). If this is the case, and the people pulling Al Sadrs strings have the goal of having him killed by Americans and the sacred temple he resides in destroyed in the process, then THEY are in control of events at this point and it is a matter of time before the situation occurs and we are dealing with a massive uprising in Iraq, supported by Iran.
I dont know if its the case, but it is looking increasingly likely, especially by the nature of Al Sadrs demands when surrounded by about 10,000 marines with Tanks and fixed wing aircraft readying the ground and preparing to assault. Either he doesnt believe we will ever do anything or he wants to die, or someone wants him to die.

For me, which is raised with a multi-party system that calculates vote percentages directly, it's simply an atrocious way to do political business.

If our country had a population under 9 million like yours doing it that way might be feasible. Our population is more than 32x the population of your country, and unlike straight percentages the electoral college system scales with size to make sure segments of the population are not left out.

Look, Al Sadr just played chicken with the United States, and won. We called off the assault.Blah blah… war is lost… blah blah blah... disaster wreck and ruin… blah blah blah

Remember the bodies hanging from the bridge in Fallujah? My blood boiled at that. We lost in Fallujah right? Because we didn't "finish the job"?

You know the military knows what they're doing right? Don't you think they want victory as much, probably more so than either of us?

Here's why we're winning:

Reason over emotion, and reality over wishful thinking - which is something you have more than your fair share of. Well, we did not level Fallujah, and we did not do it because those bodies on that bridge were bait, pure and simple. We didn’t take the bait ... or I should say, our military didn’t take the bait. I took it, hook line and sinker. I wanted to level the fucking city and then say "Take that motherfuckers!"

Same goes for today in Najaf. You want to play chicken with Sadr, except you want to ram that M1 Abrams tank down his ass and pull the trigger on that 120mm high explosive round so he'll need 100 virgins just to put him back together again.

Al Sadr’s support has evaporated. Yes L2, his armies are dead or dying. Sistani? He was holding us back for so long, he knows what's going down as soon as he stepped foot on a plan bound for England. He gave us the nod and wink and said "take care of it" before I get back home.

Sadr's fellow Mullahs condemn him, ALL of them do. Iraqi demonstrators conspire against him. His headquarters are destroyed. His home taken. His most skilled "soldiers" killed in their own backyards, playing defense in an urban environment by our Marines whose skill and tactics stagger the imagination for their expertise and success. We're killing over 200 of his "soldiers" for each of our wounded. Can you even imagine what's going through their heads? Virgins hell, I want out of here!

Now, did you want to feel good or did you want to win?

I want to win. I was an idiot for taking the bait on that bridge in Fallujah. And I thank God daily that America makes better, smarter people than me and puts them in charge of our military.

The Iraqis know full well we can bomb and pummel the shit out of anything we damn well want. But this was different. That took patience, and a willingness to get inside the enemy strategy. That took commitment, and persistence. It was cunning. These people know how strong our military might is, that lesson has been taught to them already time and again. But strong and cunning? Strong and cunning and patient?

Patience?! That puts Sadr's head into panic mode. They don't have time for this patience business, they have to get this uprising back on track and completed soon before the average joe Iraqi gets tired of it all...
The threat of the vast Shiite uprising that loomed earlier this year has largely evaporated. Things are still very tense in some areas. But we will win this because we are not going home until we do.

Tick tock tick tock...

This is slowly beginning to dawn on some of the hardest heads in Iraq. When Iraqi leaders start saying things like "we’d better help the Americans stabilize the country, because they will not go away until we do" – well, that is precisely, exactly the kind of victory we need. We need that attitude. There is a shred of can-do self-reliance in those words. Sadr will either end up like Saddam, jailed in a cage and on trial... or like one of his sons... carried home in one or two boxes. Those are his remaining choices, and he knows it, and his time is running out.

So all Sadr has left to do is die...

He's praying for some kind of uprising to come when we take him out. It's not going to happen. Why? Because the Iraqis are reentering the global world. Sattelite TVs on every home, X-Box games, Internet, over 200 newspapers to choose from, and the freedom to choose.

This is precisely why I celebrate the little things occuring in Iraq, like electricity, water, school children getting vaccinated, and their soccer team kicking the shit out of whoever they play against. Iraq needs something to fall back on. Something other than war and rape rooms.

Fallujah and Najaf sting me though. I want them to admit the obvious: that we kicked their ass and can do so again at the drop of a coin. Victory is more important than my personal pride though - indeed more important than the pride of the US military or that of the president's. Nothing should ever get between us and victory, certainly never politics.

Because we did not take the bait as you so desperately wanted, because they so clearly were not the lumbering, insensitive, imbecilic military you accuse them of just about every day, we denied the Syrians and the Iranians the uprising they so cleverly planned for.

Sadr didn't win shit. He's lost more time... and he's running out of innings.

Kerry and Bush are in a dead heat after eight months of unrelenting catastrophe for Bush. And there is such a thing as catastrophe fatigue, that's why Bush is going to win on this home stretch. The people of this country are going to watch the Olympics, go eat grilled cheese burgers and barbeque with their aunts and uncles, or take their kids to Disneyland on a weeklong road trip, and see that there are other things worth living for in this world besides the constant onslaught of bad news coming from Dan Rather and Peter Jennings.

They're not going to vote for a guy who constantly brings back bad memories of a war he helped us lose, while ignoring his own political life leading up to the present. They're going to vote for the guy who has a plan, a plan of patience and confidence. Yeah, theres been mistakes in his adminstration, but theres something seriously unhindged about you if you vehemtly hate someone who has done nothing but own up to the oaths he took to defend the country and the Constitution.

And wait for the debates. Bush as the underdog? You bet, just ask Al Gore how it feels to be bested by the idiot from Texas.

Your arguement would have merit if we didnt bring half a division to outside the city and then say we were gonna assault, then back off.
If we arent going to take bait, fine, but we should do it in a way that doesnt make us look weak and him look strong.

So all Sadr has left to do is die...
Exactally.. he is more valuable dead than alive

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000099.html
Kerry and Bush are in a dead heat after eight months of unrelenting catastrophe for Bush. And there is such a thing as catastrophe fatigue,

Ok first of all Akipt.. If you are going to copy and paste another persons words.. how about we quote them? Dont try to pass off another persons work as your own.

Second of all, the passage you plager-- errr paraphrased is from May 22. and the arguement is that Bush will win because Americans will get used to disaster? WTF that is the WORST rationale I have ever heard.. and it is bullshit.

Look, Al Sadr just played chicken with the United States, and won. We called off the assault. I cant critize THAT call, because it is such a tricky situation and there really is no win.[QUOTE]

LL the way I read the article is we called off the attack to try to negotiate (after hammering them hard) and talks broke down ..... and the attack was resumed. Im sure it was just a ploy by Sadr to regroup.

[QUOTE]So all Sadr has left to do is die...

We will take the area and we will kill Sadr. That is a foregone conclusion imo.

Some polling (http://www.pollingreport.com/wh2004.htm) numbers leading up to the present. Kerry's had a kind of reverse bounce since the Dem's convention. Nothing within the first week but a slow increase thereafter. The numbers are far from conclusive, however; still a close race with Kerry very slightly in the lead.

Dont try to pass off another persons work as your own.BUSTED by the god of copy/paste :(

I'll paraphrase more next time, I promise!

The Sadr "crisis" is overhyped for effect. You have a million journalists in Iraq looking for something to write about. It's not a brewing civil war, its a nutjob who still exists because he has a place to hide that we can't blow up. It'll all work out don't panic. Of course if Kerry was in office we could rely on him to get the job done right? All Sadr would have to do is wait a week or two and Kerry would change his mind.



Issue Kerry's Original Position/ Kerry's Revised Position
Welfare Reform In 1988, Sen. Kerry voted against a proposal to require at least one parent in any two-parent welfare family to work a mere 16 hours a week, declaring the work requirement "troublesome to me." During his 1996 re-election campaign, when his Republican challenger, Gov. William Weld, was calling him soft on welfare, Kerry voted for the much stricter welfare reform law that Clinton signed into law.
Mandatory Minimums In 1993 and 1994, the senator from liberal Massachusetts voted against mandatory minimum sentences for gang activity, gun crimes, drug trafficking, and drug sales to minors, explaining in an impassioned speech that long sentences for some dealers who sell to minors would be "enormous injustices" and that some convicted drug offenders were "so barely culpable it is sad." He also said congressionally imposed mandatory minimums made no sense and would just create turf battles between federal and local prosecutors. Today, presidential candidate Kerry strongly supports mandatory minimum sentences for federal crimes, including the sale of drugs to minors.
Affirmative Action In 1992, Kerry created a huge stir among liberals and civil rights groups with a major policy address arguing that affirmative action has "kept America thinking in racial terms" and helped promote a "culture of dependency." Today, Kerry's campaign Web site vows to "Preserve Affirmative Action," noting that he "consistently opposed efforts in the Senate to undermine or eliminate affirmative action programs, and supports programs that seeks to enhance diversity." It doesn't mention any downside.
Death Penalty During one of his debates with Weld in 1996, Kerry ridiculed the idea of capital punishment for terrorists as a "terrorist protection policy," predicting that it would just discourage other nations from extraditing captured terrorists to the United States. Kerry still opposes capital punishment, but he now makes an exception for terrorists.
Education Reform In a 1998 policy speech the Boston Globe described as "a dramatic break from Democratic dogma," Kerry challenged teachers unions by proposing to gut their tenure and seniority systems, giving principals far more power to hire and fire unqualified or unmotivated teachers. Today, Kerry once again espouses pure Democratic dogma on education. His Web site pledges to "stop blaming and start supporting public school educators," vowing to give them "better training and better pay, with more career opportunities, more empowerment and more mentors." It doesn't mention seniority or tenure.

Double Taxation In December 2002, Kerry broke with Democratic dogma yet again in a Cleveland speech, calling for the abolition of the unfair "double taxation" of stock dividends in order to promote more investment and more accurate valuations of companies. Five weeks later, after President Bush proposed a second round of tax cuts that included an end to this double taxation, Kerry changed his tune. He voted against the dividend tax cuts that were ultimately enacted by Congress and now hopes to roll them back as president, along with Bush's other tax cuts for upper-income Americans.
Gas Taxation In 1994, when the Concord Coalition gave Kerry a failing rating for his deficit reduction votes, he complained that he should have gotten credit for supporting a 50-cent increase in the gas tax. Today he no longer supports any increase in the gas tax.
Social Security During the 1996 campaign, when I was a Globe reporter, Kerry told me the Social Security system should be overhauled. He said Congress should consider raising the retirement age and means-testing benefits and called it "wacky" that payroll taxes did not apply to income over $62,700. "I know it's all going to be unpopular," he said. "But this program has serious problems, and we have a generational responsibility to fix them." Kerry no longer wants to mess with Social Security. "John Kerry will never balance the budget on the backs of America's seniors," his Web site promises.
Trade Kerry has been a consistent supporter of free trade deals, and as late as December, when reporters asked if there was any issue on which he was prepared to disagree with Democratic interest groups, Kerry replied: "Trade."

Slate editor Jacob Weisberg came away impressed by the depth of Kerry's commitment to the issue: "Unlike Edwards, he supports international trade agreements without qualification." But that was three months ago! In recent weeks, when Kerry has talked trade, he has talked nothing but qualification, calling for "fair trade" rather than "free trade," claiming to agree completely with the protectionist Edwards on trade issues, and vowing to "put teeth" into environmental and labor restrictions in agreements like NAFTA.





>Today's Kerry excoriates Attorney General John Ashcroft for violating
>American civil liberties with his evil tool, the Patriot Act. "We are a
>nation of laws and liberties, not of a knock in the night," Kerry huffs.
>"So it is time to end the era of John Ashcroft. That starts with replacing
>the Patriot Act with a new law that protects our people and our liberties
>at the same time." Maybe Kerry should have thought about that before
>voting for the Patriot Act in 2001 — since laws and liberties are pretty
>important and all.
>
>Back before he had to worry about competing with one Howard Brush Dean,
>Kerry was positively delighted by the Patriot Act. "It reflects," he said
>on the Senate floor, "an enormous amount of hard work by the members of
>the Senate Banking Committee and the Senate Judiciary Committee. I
>congratulate them and thank them for that work." While supportive of
>"sunset" provisions in the bill, Kerry pronounced himself "pleased at the
>compromise we have reached on the anti-terrorism legislation." These are
>not the words of a man about to help inaugurate an era of brown-shirt law
>enforcement.

Hey, we're not running on voting records, remember?


We're running on military service and Vietnam..just as long as you don't question Kerry about Vietnam and military service.

No Shit, nothing like an incumbant president going into his convention with the aim of introducing his issues.

Kerry crossed party lines to vote for the Patriot Act. Now while I agree with some of the powers it frees up, it is a flawed law that requires alot of modification, AND Ashcroft is WRONG person for the job. He was appointed by Bush as a nod to anti-abortion people and the RR. The United States needs a better, more qualified, less fucking looney, man as AG.

Yea 98

Nay 1

Not voting 1

... where's the party line? One democrat voting nay lol.


He was appointed by Bush as a nod to anti-abortion people and the RR.

Several democrats voted for Ashcroft as well, including the one democrat who voted against the Patriot Act.


The United States needs a better, more qualified, less fucking looney, man as AG.

Out of curiosity what makes him so looney?

Kerry votes for whatever is popular. When things don't go his way he comes up with a contorted excuse. If he had had his way we wouldn't have the military capability to deal with anything that's going on right now, and the intelligence community would have been diminished even further. Now suddenly we're expected to believe he's going to increase the military, double special forces, increase intelligence capabilities, and not allow the UN to run him. What in the history of anything that he's done in his life would lead someone to believe any of that?