I keep meaning to make a thread on this, and happened to see this online this morning: http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/12/autos/most_american_car/index.htm?postversion=2009101207

Support the U.S. economy. Buy American.

Sounds simple enough. But in a world where a Ford Fusion is built in Mexico, and a Toyota Camry is manufactured at a plant in Kentucky, the lines get blurred.

As American car companies are spreading more of their work overseas, Asian and European automakers are bringing more of their work here. So where is your money really going when you buy a car?

"When it comes to longer term benefits, a lot of activity happens in the country in which the company's world headquarters is domiciled," said Thomas Klier, an economist with the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago who has written extensively on the auto industry.

Klier says that buying a Ford or General Motors car is still better for the American economy and for American workers, even if the particular vehicle you're buying was built in Mexico, Canada or Korea.

That's because American car companies make more cars and employ more workers in the United States than do automakers based in other countries.

...

But the largest chunk of Toyota's design, research and development operations still take place in Japan, Klier pointed out.

On the other hand, most of the profit Ford gets from selling its cars supports its overall operations, which remain centered in the United States, helping the company survive, grow stronger, and develop new products.

Also Ford and GM use more American-made parts in their cars, the Camry vs. Fusion example notwithstanding.

"In the aggregate, U.S. manufacturers still use more U.S. content than Japanese importers," says Martin Zimmerman, a University of Michigan economist and a former executive with Ford Motor Co.

Also, Ford (F, Fortune 500) and General Motors employ more people in the U.S. than Toyota (TM) or Honda (HMC), Nissan or Hyundai do. (Chrysler currently employs slightly fewer people in this country than Toyota, according the automakers' own numbers.)

That really only scratches the surface, but it's a good start.

With GM deciding to axe Pontiac and Saturn, I have decided to axe GM as a source of future auto purchases. Pontiacs were always better vehicles (IMO) than Chevy, and it seems I see three or four Pontiacs on the road for every Buick. When I traded in my '99 Pontiac SSEi on my 2005 Saturn VUE, I was very impressed with how the transaction went, and have been equally impressed in the vehicle and service ever since. I would have traded in for a new VUE most likely, but with the prospect of no dealerships in the near future service becomes an issue.

Now, the vehicle is almost 5 years old which is the average time I keep a car, and I am disappointed in my choices for a new car being narrowed due to poor management.

I will buy an American made car, but I don't know that I will be as happy doing so. (Of course, if I let the little kid in me decide it would be either a Challenger or a Mustang) :cool:

I keep telling myself I am going to look at Ford when I purchase my next truck, and deffinately go american on my daily traveler to work. I picked up a Honda about 9 years ago, as well as a chevy truck..both are hitting 180K miles. Won't be new car purchases but at least I'll go American and get away from the Honda...which has been a nice car but I still put a decent amount of money into it just to get 180K out of it.

You can never go wrong with a Ford truck platform. It's the one place the company stayed true to a high quality program. worked from many of thier platforms over the years and never had anything but minor problems. a friend has 78 ford he uses as a work truck and put less money into it than another who has 04 GMC.
Owned a few Hondas over the years and they are really great cars untill the day you need to start doing more than oil changes it's time to dump'em.

Another area to pay attention to country of origin is in buying tools. i'll spend twice as much on American made tools and never regret it. Klien bieng a great example of superior quality.

I had a lot of trouble with Ford Turbo Diesels, the late 90's to early 2000's...lots of issues as well as transmissions. Now that was on F350's and using them for work trucks but for an engine that should go 300K miles, was blowing its guts out on the highway at less than 50k on them. Duramax came a long and took it away.

My 03 Dakota has been a good truck for me. I bought it used, when it was 2 years old, and other than a new starter when I first got it, oil changes, tires, replacing a corroded battery terminal (whoops!) and a brake job about a year ago, I haven't had an issue out of it. And I'm over 150K miles on it. So I've driven the heck out of it, and not really had any problems.

Of course, now I will probably jinx myself!

I think I should remind you that Toyota has never had a layoff. Ford is also a proponent of lean management. GM, however, is not.

The number of people hired is never a good indicator of why we should support a sinking ship. Toyota hires labour they need. A greater number of hired people shows excess if production and sales do not merit the extra cost. As the Sanchek cites, Japanese cars are more American than American cars, since many American car components are manufactured in China and Mexico (as costs are lowered through the abuse of NAFTA).

What we should try to do is make these American car companies more efficient. Not blindly handing bailouts to them so that we can do it again come ten years later. Just because they hire more doesn't mean we should support them more, especially if money is being handed out to Mexico and China through the bailouts. Minimise the Mexico & China production. Reduce unnecessary labour (e.g, people whose only job is to screw in a nut) and utilise automation. Treat autoworkers fairly, and maybe they won't feel compelled to join the UAW. Toyota's American employees do not wish to join UAW, despite UAW's attempt to court them.

At least the Japanese cars companies consider American operations a vital component to their success.

Sorry, but I don't buy crap

Show me an American car that is pound for pound better then another brand that isn't more expensive and I will consider it.

A truck? Maybe. Anything else, Going to take a lot of convincing

Sorry, but I don't buy crap

Show me an American car that is pound for pound better then another brand that isn't more expensive and I will consider it.

A truck? Maybe. Anything else, Going to take a lot of convincing

I'm with you here, and that's why I haven't bought an American car since the mid 90s (I learned my lesson the hard way). But I will say, pound for pound, and dollar to dollar, I'd take a CTS-V over anything within $10k-20k of the asking price (if my wife didn't veto me getting a car with 550 HP and a high end vette engine to tote the kids around). That said, I'll probably end up getting a used Lexis (2006/07) GS 350 when my current lease expires May of 2010. Can't go wrong with Lexis considering they have been judged the highest quality automobile manufacturer 12 of the last 18 years globally.

Heh, speaking of, the price of some of those manmobiles has been dropping like rocks. I was seeing new Corvettes for under 40.

At least the Japanese cars companies consider American operations a vital component to their success.

The problem with that is that they only consider American operations vital insomuch as they remain successful marketing campaigns. Every dollar they spend on labor, manufacturing, R&D, or anything else here is spent only if it is expected to bring more than a dollar of our money back to HQ in Japan.

Notwithstanding the FED, this is a zero sum game. Once we've sent all our dollars overseas (if we haven't already), we're screwed.

We have no legitimate choice in the matter when it comes to many products, but the auto industry is one place where we do have a feasible choice to do the right thing.

Sorry, but I don't buy crap

Show me an American car that is pound for pound better then another brand that isn't more expensive and I will consider it.

A truck? Maybe. Anything else, Going to take a lot of convincing

That meme is so passe at this point.

I don't really follow the sedans closely, but look at the Mercury Milan or Ford Fusion to stack up against your Camry. JD Power gives them top ratings in initial quality and 4.5-5/5 in the other ratings.

Same goes with the Jeeps I've had. I always buy the limited package Grand Cherokees and have never had a complaint about quality or reliability. They're just as nice as any of my friends' foreign SUVs.

That meme is so passe at this point.

I don't really follow the sedans closely, but look at the Mercury Milan or Ford Fusion to stack up against your Camry. JD Power gives them top ratings in initial quality and 4.5-5/5 in the other ratings.

Same goes with the Jeeps I've had. I always buy the limited package Grand Cherokees and have never had a complaint about quality or reliability. They're just as nice as any of my friends' foreign SUVs.


Oh god,

I would never drive a mercury or a Ford Fusion... Even if somehow the Fusion could measure up, it is like being inside of a casket!

So cramped and disgusting.

I used to drive a Hummer, and vowed to never drive another American car unless I see something worth the money. I also drove a Jeep and had a whole lot of problems with that car.

Now I drive a Camry, and I could not be happier.

I used to drive a Hummer, and vowed to never drive another American car unless I see something worth the money.

Now I drive a Camry, and I could not be happier.

A Hummer? What in the world did you expect?

That's like buying a Yugo and then writing off all foreign cars. :rolleyes:

Camry is a lot nicer car than the fusion, I think Camry versus the highend Taurus models is a better comparison. I loved the SHO in its day. Camry is a tough one to beat, I went with the Accord over it, nicer ride imo.

Hummer, ...there is only one Hummer...H1 Turbo Diesel, the rest are junk.

H1 Turbo Diesel, the rest are junk.

Well yeah, the real Hummers are awesome, but you know he bought one of those pimp-mobiles right out of a rap video; just like everyone else did during that period.

Camry is a lot nicer car than the fusion, I think Camry versus the highend Taurus models is a better comparison. I loved the SHO in its day. Camry is a tough one to beat, I went with the Accord over it, nicer ride imo.

Are you thinking of the Ford Focus? The Fusion replaced the Taurus. For that price point, it's nice enough. Definitely nice as a Camry.

Actually no, I am talking about this:

http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/taurus/

I'm pretty sure I read that they're phasing it out for the Fusion ASAP. Could be wrong.

You are wrong. They phased out the Taurus for the Fusion. In comes Ford's Five Hundred (to dismal sales figures). Ford figures, hey we have this nameplate called "Taurus" that has some value. Ford rebadges the Five Hundred the Taurus. Sales do not increase like they would hope. They redesign the Taurus. Ibudin links the redesigned Taurus.

My sister had a bad experience with a Mercury Mystique about 7 years ago. The car was no more than 5 years old with maybe 50,000 miles on it, and it broke down twice in the same year. She replaced it later that year. No other car my family has had has done nearly as badly in terms of reliability.

In any case, for something as important as a car, I'm going to go for whatever suits my needs best regardless of country of origin.

You can't accurately throw that large a blanket in either direction. My girlfriend has an Infiniti that's nothing but trouble. We've had to throw more money at it in a couple years than I have at my last few Jeeps combined.

Seems we are all over the map lol.

Our VW Jetta was a P.O.S...lots of electrical problems.
My Honda was in the shop with a bad wirring harness after 100K miles, thats a huge problem to this day even...needed to pull the motor to just get at it.
Brothers Dodge Ram truck...transmission completely screwed at 110K miles
Work friends new Dakota has tons of suspension problems, been in the shop over 5 times in 40k miles for it.

Bad apples everywhere

Obviously cars will perform in the long run differently depending on the owner, care, where they "live", if they are garaged or left outside, and all sorts of factors. That being said, Consumer Reports have generally been a pretty solid barometer over the years as to what cars to buy and so forth. They do huge surveys every year (about 1.5 million responses) to see how people's cars are performing on top of their own tests.

Their recommended cars for 2009/2010:
Convertables - Mazda MX-5 Miata (Japan), Porsche Boxster (Germany), BMW 328i Convertable (Germany)
Small Cars - Hyundai Elantra SE (S. Korea), Honda Fit Base AT (Japan), Honda Civic Hybrid (Japan), Subaru Impreza WRX (Japan), Subaru Impreza 2.5i (Japan)
Minivans - Mazda5 (Japan), Honda Odyssey (Japan), Toyota Sienna AWD (Japan)
Pickup Trucks - Honda Ridgeline (Japan), Chevrolet Avalanche (USA)
SUVs - Toyota Rav4 (Japan), Nissan Murano (Japan), Ford Expedition EL (USA), Acura MDX (Japan), Subaru Forester (Japan), Ford Escape Hybrid (USA), Nissan Pathfinder (Japan), Nissan Xterra (Japan)
Sedans - Ford Fusion Hybrid (USA), Hyundai Elantra SE (S. Korea), Honda Accord (Japan), Lexus ES (Japan), Infiniti G RWD (Japan) Infiniti M35 RWD (Japan), Lexus LS (Japan)
Wagons - Hyundai Elantra Touring (Japan), Mazda5 (Japan), Subaru Impreza Outback Sport (Japan)
Sports Cars - Subaru Impreza WRX (Japan), Infinity G RWD (Japan), Mini Cooper Hatchback (German), Mazda MX-5 Miata (Japan), Porsche Boxster (Germany), Porsche 911 (Germany)

So, out of a few dozen top picks only 2 are US made. In the Wagon/Hatchback category when I went shopping I don't remember a US made car even being in their top 20 choices, and the Dodge Caliber (which was the only US car I looked at that didn't have horrible blind spot issues or wasn't too small for all 6 feet of me) was rated as their worst car.

Basically, the "Buy American", especially when it comes to cars, is kind of a tough sell for me. Worthless anecdotal evidence though, I turned in my 1992 Chevrolet Corsica with its 90,000 miles on it when buying the Subaru and probably didn't spend more than $10,000 on it the entire time I owned it.

Well I own a mustang. Have owned 3 actually. We also started having ford trouble back in th 70s. Rancheros were blowing transmissions every few months. So we bought a Toyota truck for work. Several trucks and millions of miles later we have been happy. Then we bought a brand spanking new Ford Taurus in 1986. It was 15k back in 86. Not a cheap car by any means. It was single handedly the worst car we have ever owned. 3 transmissions, complete bottom end, new computer, new paint, and thats just the major work we had to do. Then we bought a new 1992 Honda Accord. 300k miles later all we put in it was a distributor and it was under warranty. Bought another honda after that in 2000...still driving it.

All my mustangs have had the same problems, good motors, crappy automatic trannys, and terrible electronics. That said I still love the cars because they are fun, but i can see why people will not buy them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uc4Ksz3nHM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfZDtC9kjVk

Bonus points for Morricone.

American engineering. *snicker*

I remember a friend got in a terrible accident in a Lexus. Japanese cars are not built to survive heavy accidents.

On the subject of weak cars, I've got a BMW Z4--as they say about German engineering--if it takes one screw to tie it tight, German car engineers will use 12.

I have a Suzuki, I'll prolly have it another 15 years. I have a Hyundai, I'll only have it long enough to not be upside down on the loan so I can dump it. Both my Chevy and Dodge died from stupid shit and the engines gave out way too early.

Why does everyone focus on cars. When it comes to buy American.
If people purchased American in everyday products it would go alot farther. be it vegies and fruit, washer/dryers or tvs.

Buying local is the biggest step to help build your community and America.

I think Nekko you're on to something. Local products such as those from the farmer's market are much better than Whole Foods. If we focused on what America is good at, we could go a lot farther. It doesn't have to be cars, but if you could support local products, you would be supporting local businesses.

Remember the heart of America is not big business; it's small business and the local shops that offer quality products that Wal*Mart would never be able to offer. Think of the car industries as Wal*Mart--they don't do a whole lot to support local business, no? So if we all pitched in like buying artisan soap from the local woman who makes fragrant soap, we'd still be doing much more than Wal*Mart. Figuratively, isn't GM much like Wal*Mart? They're employing (well, admittedly people of dubious American citizenship) as well as buying from China...

There's a specialty bread shop 5 minutes away from where I live. China would never be able to produce that. Or Pizzeria Bianco (http://pizzeriabianco.com).

It all matters. The $1.50 American made spatula vs. the $0.99 one from wherever is the difference between thousands of our neighbors having work or not.

At the same time, buying all the bread and spatulas in the world doesn't help the millions employed by the American automotive sector. If the American made cars were just crap, the weird anti-American sentiment would be justified, but that's mostly anecdotal and/or based on hearsay. Plenty of the American made cars get top-notch ratings, same as the foreign ones (and even get better gas mileage).

Too many of us have just turned into short-sighted magpies when it comes to these things.

All my mustangs have had the same problems, good motors, crappy automatic trannys, and terrible electronics. That said I still love the cars because they are fun, but i can see why people will not buy them.


I have never been able to grasp why someone would buy a nice sporty car and not have a manual transmission to take advantage of it. Of my last five vehicles, only the Bonneville SSEi was automatic.

I have never been able to grasp why someone would buy a nice sporty car and not have a manual transmission to take advantage of it. Of my last five vehicles, only the Bonneville SSEi was automatic.

If I had to drive a manual car on the beltway I'd probably kill myself. I can't remember the last time I was driving that there wasn't traffic.

I drove my '91 Taurus into the ground. That thing ran great, the only significant problem I ever had was a bad fuel pump, which if I remember right required pulling the entire engine to replace. Oh, and the voltage regulator went somewhere around 120k miles.

Buying local is a huge step towards not only a positive economy but also rebuilding a sustainable culture. Unfortunately I'm not sure how realistic it is in many metropolitan areas.

I do not shop at Walmart because of what they do to the neighborhood and small business. I can count on 1 hand the number of times I have purchased there. I'm not willing to save 50 cents to screw the people in my community.

The first mustang I got was an automatic. The car was a pristine blue convertible owned by a bankers wife. Had 72,000 original garage kept miles. Had a new tranny...which lasted like 20k. I then had a custom built tranny put in and it pepped the car up alot :) My other two mustangs have been manuals. The T-5 is a decent tranny but the AOD was made for a 4 cyl and they used it with the V-8s...yay ford.

I drove my '91 Taurus into the ground. That thing ran great, the only significant problem I ever had was a bad fuel pump, which if I remember right required pulling the entire engine to replace. Oh, and the voltage regulator went somewhere around 120k miles.

Buying local is a huge step towards not only a positive economy but also rebuilding a sustainable culture. Unfortunately I'm not sure how realistic it is in many metropolitan areas.

Kanyli,

Probably more realistic then you mght think. In a metropolis like New York, I can be a subway away from Union Square, where I can buy local fashion made by independent hole-in-the-walls. I can walk to SoHo and pick up a coffee of locally roasted coffee. I can take a train to Brooklyn and pickup some Hudson Valley duck. I can go to Flushing and buy American ginseng. I can buy local produce in the markets of Gramercy. If I'm out of soap, I can buy from the little shops. I can buy a fresh baguette just a block away in Chelsea. I can buy fresh milk from Hudson Valley farms, which taste nothing like today's milk (and is minimally pasteurized).

You see, it's even easier to do it in a big city since public transportation makes it so. Conversely, places where Wal*Mart is the only available option make it more difficult. Phoenx, for example, has too much urban sprawl, even though it can clearly sustain a local foods market.

It all matters. The $1.50 American made spatula vs. the $0.99 one from wherever is the difference between thousands of our neighbors having work or not.


Speaking of spatulas, I haven't bought one in over a year, due to the fact that I haven't been able to find one *not* made in China. Most plastic utensils, I can find US or Mexican (Villeda) made; but for some reason, I can't find *any* variety of plastic/silicone spatula, regardless of brand, not made in the PRC. So for now I'm scraping egg out of my pans with pie-knives... ;)

I do keep an eye to origin tags and try to buy American when I can - and unfortunately for textiles and a wide variety of other things, that's no longer possible. In recent changes in origin news, I've also noticed that the upmarket knit sweaters/shells which would have been made in Central America a few years ago are also exclusively (at least, those sold to the major lines) made in PRC, regardless of brand - I attempted to buy a couple to compliment a pair of suits I had bought late this summer (made in Vietnam) and turned up empty after several *weeks* of searching. I did, however, find injection-molded chairs for my patio made in... Selma, Alabama (my town of birth, which tickled me) though, so while difficult it's not impossible to find mostly labor-light American made goods.

I agree totally that in the absence of systematic (some combination of tariffs, subsidy, or other protection to what's left of our industries) support for American made goods that our only option is to seek them out and pay a premium for them when they're worth supporting quality wise - although another dodge for that in areas I can't find new American-made is to go hit the local thrift store, where I frequently *can* find relics of our former small appliance and dishware manufacturing days, or at least am not sending the money directly overseas (picked up a 1970's vintage can opener and coffee maker at our local Salvation Army when I moved up to SA, both American-made; the same companies both still exist, of course, but manufacture in China ;) ).

I *always* check origin labels as I've mentioned will go in order of preference as much as possible, and if I can't find something made reasonably sustainably/fairly traded, as often as not I don't buy it these days.

Regards,
Nydia

I was thinking more along the lines of food and expendables - There simply isn't the needed infrastructure around most major cities to support them. Yet. I'm also the paranoid who sees supply lines being cut off as one of the future downfalls of our civilization.

Are you quite sure about that? You live in Phoenix, as I do when I'm working out of our Phoenix office, but Phoenix has:


Queen Creek Olive Oil
Maya Farms/McClendon Farms Local Produce
Local coffee/produce from Lux, Cartel, or Queen Creek
Abby Lee Farms for Specialty Melons
McClendon's Select for Local Orange Blossom/Desert Blossom Honey
Meat Shop for Locally Grown Pork
One Windmill Farm for Specialty Produce, Cider, Pinto Beans, Granola
Dos Arbolitos for Local Herbs

And it's all available here, at the local Downtown Phoenix Public Market (http://www.foodconnect.org/phoenixmarket/market_news/vendors.asp).

Or are you referring to New York being completely urbanised? If that's the case, there's much, much more to New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York) than New York City. Even local produce has a little bit of logistics in a suburban town. Unfortunately, we tend to do less local shopping in suburbia since everything is more spread apart.

Victory garden, FTW?

I'm thinking of everyone in the city trying to do that, not the individual. The local resources around here couldn't support us if everyone decided to buy local, or worse if we were cut off from the outside. I'm thinking food, fuel, water, that sort of thing.

I grow some produce in my backyard, enjoying the longer seasons in Phoenix, but it would have to be a pretty massive undertaking to significantly affect our food budget. There's also no way that we save money by growing fruit, right now. My wife regularly gets on me for what I need to spend on garden supplies, although once your garden is established it gets cheap real fast. I grew the best tasting watermelon I've ever had last year, and would have had a healthy carrot stock if the water system hadn't failed when I was out of town.

Incidentally, I may be wrong as I don't know the actual raw figures for any American city, let alone Phoenix. But watching the frequency with which grocery stores have to restock and the amount of material moved through the city at any given time, I doubt our ability to sustain ourselves, certainly not with our current standards of living.

Obama's economic stimulus plan should have focused on local business instead of the large companies like Wal*Mart that barely make a difference. Small businesses that produce food cannot stay afloat, especially in Arizona due to the water shortage.

The economic stimulus plan does NOTHING to support small business that are trying to make a difference. They cannot keep up with ConAgra Foods, Inc. (http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:CAG), a company that rakes in billions (market cap is at 9.55B), receives government benefits, and produces most of their food outside the US.

But if we all tried to support local farms, local food would become much more affordable. If we provided economic benefits to these farmers and purveyors of local food, they wouldn't go under. Young's Farm (http://www.sierraauction.com/public_html/press/young's_farm.pdf) comes to mind of a chicken farm that raises them in the traditional manner--free range, outside, and not force fed.

It's sad that we have to pay for things like "grass-fed" cow. Didn't we grow up with the notion that cows were raised eating grass?

It doesn't matter if the money goes back to the US. It's going back to the pockets of the shareholders. For companies that claim to be American and produce most of their stuff outside the US, it's deceiving that the money will return to the people, when they don't pay taxes, take in government benefits, receive government handouts, and hire labour outside the US. Don't claim to be supporting "American" products, when those hired to make the product are outside the US.

Local farms cannot keep up with the demand. You cannot feed 300 million people with a mom and pop shops anymore. The niche farms that have free range chickens, milk cows, ect...are nice in thought but not going to support Chicago's daily food intake...we call those "hobby" farms.

It doesn't matter if the money goes back to the US. It's going back to the pockets of the shareholders. For companies that claim to be American and produce most of their stuff outside the US, it's deceiving that the money will return to the people, when they don't pay taxes, take in government benefits, receive government handouts, and hire labour outside the US. Don't claim to be supporting "American" products, when those hired to make the product are outside the US.

First, understand that domestic manufacturers outsource because we force them to compete so fiercely on price, against products manufactured with cheaper labor (often under horrible circumstances, or at absurd environmental costs). We're terribly shortsighted in that regard, so easily tricked into throwing our money at a race for the lowest common denominator.

Second, as covered in the article, the domestic manufacturers create more domestic jobs than foreign. More importantly, they keep most of the best jobs, like R&D, at home and outsource the least skilled labor overseas.

It's a bit less now, but at the end of 2007, The Big 3 directly employed 240,000 US workers. They certainly do pay taxes too. Tens of billions a year in Federal and State taxes, each.

Local farms cannot keep up with the demand. You cannot feed 300 million people with a mom and pop shops anymore. The niche farms that have free range chickens, milk cows, ect...are nice in thought but not going to support Chicago's daily food intake...we call those "hobby" farms.

"Young's Farm" that I mentioned in my earlier post did not have enough demand. Click on the link in my earlier post and you will see that it is having a liquidation auction.

Europe is able to feed everyone with local mom and pop farms. If you go to any European market, you'll find that most of the food brought into the market is local.

I'm not talking necessarily about the Big 3, Sanchek. It's true that those companies bring in R&D jobs, but lackluster management and engineering is no excuse for supporting them. If we are to help companies like GM, they need to hire better R&D to help sales.

My earlier point was referring to "American" companies like Wal*Mart. A company so cheap that they'll buy a property, hand it off to another hand, and lease it back to themselves so that they can write off taxes.

People in down town Chicago are not going to drive to, or even able to, some small town free range chicken farm. Its just not condusive to the mass populace of this country. Sure we have markets all over the place that sell season vegies from their hobby farms, even fresh eggs or chickens but thats not going to happen ever on a large scale again....well simply because



It was sold to Monogram Cos. of Scottsdale for
residential development at the end of 2006



Much like many farms across this entire country where gobbled up by that very same process...the land for all intense purposes was worth far more money for realstate than growing corn or raising animals for food. The ones that do thrive now a days are the ones with 100,000's of acres (comercial farmers).

In the last 20 years, I have seen countless farm acreage in the St Croix Valley area of Minnesota be sold for housing developments. And, I have seen countless 'lots' sit undeveloped, and newly constructed homes and model homes sit unsold, for years at a time.

The thing about local foods, American cars, and all the like is the incentives are weak or non-existant.

A lot of people can't afford to pay the extra money for local made products. I don't do the Wal-Mart route but the "thousand dollars a year in savings" is tough to pass up even if you make this countries' median income, let alone less. We can't compete in labor costs, and in turn can't compete on prices, which lends me to think Import Certificates or something like that are really the only way to protect American industry as the trade deficit continues to grow. Compound that with our recession (and our trade deficit being in decline) and really no time is better than the present.

That being said there are also exceptions. Working in the US entertainment industry, one of this countries' largest exports, there isn't any tarrifs or subsidies or things of that nature - just unparalleled quality. People don't have to be told to "watch local" for their film choices or "buy American" when it comes to their CDs/DVDs. Sure, the random Indian or European film/show/band makes it here - but we certainly export conciderably more entertainment content (film, television, video games, sports, music, etc.) around the globe than we import.

The balance between quality and government support really is the only way out of the mess. Encouraging people to "Buy American" is all well and good - but unrealistic.

Or, simply for counter-point, we could all read Friedman and embrace the coming outsourcing apocalpyse with the hope we don't all go broke in the process.

Too shortsighted. That sort of philosophy leads to the same "lot of people" having less and less over time. It's the sort of thinking that consolidates our GDP into junk like financial services and consumer consumption, leaving that median income stagnant for decades.

If people bought less, but bought more of it locally, they would end up having better jobs, more money, and better communities in relatively short order. Saving $0.50 on that spatula costs them far more in the long run.

The incentive is absolutely there: Self preservation. Unless we change our aggregate attitudes toward consumption, our middle and lower classes are going to remain in this death spiral.

There is simply no equation in which us rushing to send our money overseas, at a net trade deficit, results in long-term betterment for the average citizen. Any illusion to the contrary is just that.

I think quality is a driving factor. Given that everyone has access to the Internet, information is widely available. A large number of different alternatives exist. The problem is that American cars haven't been known for quality. Improve the quality, improve the industrial engineering, and remind customers why they should purchase your products.

There was a time when the US was actually known for quality and six sigma and black belts. The Japanese took these concepts very seriously from William Edward Deming, and actually out sixsigmaed the US.

The reason I buy local foods is because I perceive the quality is better than corporate farms. The reason I purchase German cars is because my experience with them has always been stellar. The reason I will try to buy as many locally produced products (e.g, stuff that isn't manufactured and/or hand-made) is because there generally is more thought put into them and the quality is usually better an order of a magnitude.

Consumers these days don't buy solely on nationalism. They'll buy the product that provides the best overall value given the price and quality.

The problem is that American cars haven't been known for quality. Improve the quality, improve the industrial engineering, and remind customers why they should purchase your products.

There are plenty of quality domestics, but this conventional wisdom persists like a cockroach.

A friend of mine had the transmission in his Accord die a couple weeks ago, just outside the warranty. $2500 to fix it. He told me he was going to look for another Honda instead of fixing it, because they're so reliable.

"..."

There are plenty of quality domestics, but this conventional wisdom persists like a cockroach.

I don't deny that there are quality domestics; Apple (who works with Taiwanese Honhai) build excellent products using American R&D and industrial quality standards.

The problem is that American car companies already have a serious image problem which is why it persists, as you say, "like a cockroach."

My first task in selling American cars would not be lowering prices to the point where one would be going bankrupt, but informing the American car customers that quality is excellent and perpetuating the belief that American cars are much better than their counterparts.

How do you think brands like St Regis (http://stregis.com), Ritz Carlton (http://www.ritzcarlton.com) stay in business? It's in large part due to perception. And these are American businesses, whose sister companies are much more ordinary (Four Points, Marriotts).

Fixing the image is what companies like GM need to do. There is too much of a stigma on the MPG of American cars. Remind customers they can save big on gas. Announce figures that have been approved by the EPA.

They have been doing that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5NLSglyVeY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTUoVzBEZaA


As little TV as I watch, I've still noticed plenty of advertising promoting quality and fuel economy. I'll try to find more later.

Here's another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dapye2U7jyA

Advertising is all fine and good, but people are much better about picking up unstated messages than they are anything else. When GM kills their EV1 project and Saturn, which made European-style economy cars, that means a lot more to them than 50000 repetitions of "hey, we're back at 30mpg! 1980s rewind!"

Most of those programs die off due to lack of consumer demand, not some malicious intent to burn more gas. When it comes down to it, we don't support small/efficient cars with our wallets. Hell, even the Accord has become so large that it's classified as a full size sedan by the EPA now.

Just look at this thing that Ford makes for the European market, but can't sell here: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm

I think I should remind you that Toyota has never had a layoff. Ford is also a proponent of lean management. GM, however, is not.

The number of people hired is never a good indicator of why we should support a sinking ship. Toyota hires labour they need. A greater number of hired people shows excess if production and sales do not merit the extra cost. As the Sanchek cites, Japanese cars are more American than American cars, since many American car components are manufactured in China and Mexico (as costs are lowered through the abuse of NAFTA).

What we should try to do is make these American car companies more efficient. Not blindly handing bailouts to them so that we can do it again come ten years later. Just because they hire more doesn't mean we should support them more, especially if money is being handed out to Mexico and China through the bailouts. Minimise the Mexico & China production. Reduce unnecessary labour (e.g, people whose only job is to screw in a nut) and utilise automation. Treat autoworkers fairly, and maybe they won't feel compelled to join the UAW. Toyota's American employees do not wish to join UAW, despite UAW's attempt to court them.

At least the Japanese cars companies consider American operations a vital component to their success.

While it's true Ford has embraced some of the Lean philosophies it's quite untrue to say that any American company has switched over to it ...in all honesty. The closest I seen was the NUMMI plant in San Jose California and even that is a joint venture between GM and Toyota.

That being said you are 100% correct. Until the American auto makers shift thier business models and go 100% towards a Lean, if not lean a lean like, philosophy the auto industry will remain a dinosaur.

Most of those programs die off due to lack of consumer demand, not some malicious intent to burn more gas. When it comes down to it, we don't support small/efficient cars with our wallets. Hell, even the Accord has become so large that it's classified as a full size sedan by the EPA now.

Just look at this thing that Ford makes for the European market, but can't sell here: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm


They could sell it, but it appears they won't. I know I'd buy one as my daily driver over my truck, if it was available for sale.

Ford isn't willing to go to bat for something that isn't a high-return vehicle, particularly one that may cannibalize some of their existing markets. I know the blame-the-victim mentality is at an all time high this year in the US memesphere, but Ford could sell that car here and they know it, they don't want to do so for their own reasons.

As usual we have business interests aligned towards carving up the most of a rapidly shrinking pie. Sure it sounds dire now, oh we'd never return the investment yadayada, but this plans are tens of years in the making. If they'd wanted to do it, they would have started in years ago.

I agree with Sanchek's post a ways above (had to run to lab mid composition ;) ) completely - those 7.00 Miley Cyrus T-shirts and terrible quality sheets/towels clogging all the floor space in my local Wal-Mart aren't worth the loss of our textiles industries (I used to be able to get great quality linens from the Westpoint-Peppermill outlet in east Georgia, the last non PRC sheets I bought at Anna's Linens (Pakistan) fitted sheet elastic broke the first time I put them on the bed, and let's not talk about the rag-in-a-week washcloths), cheap flatscreens aren't worth the loss of our electronics industries, etc...

I figured I'd say something about the food issue though, since it's something I'm slightly qualified to speak about.

There is a lot of insane waste in our 'economy of scale uber alles' system, such as the case I mentioned of most of the processed lettuce and salad products being shipped in tens of thousands of semis from California to plants in the Southeast (where the water is) to be washed and packaged (often as whole heads!) and then shipped around the country - another case being beef from Montana and Alberta being shipped (again to the South where that cheap cheap labor is!) as sides to be sliced into supermarket cuts and then shipped back north and west in yet more trucks. If all of the transportation, fertilizer, and environmental costs are figured in (as we eat up our principal in topsoil/water), cheap mass-produced food isn't *actually* much cheaper than the sustainably grown variety. Throw the spiralling health care costs associated with our meat and corn heavy based diets in to the mix and it's arguably much more expensive.

Even discounting whether such a food producing infrastructure or diet is 'good' for us, our entire agribusiness food production and distribution industry depends on cheap oil, cheap water (for intensive monoculture cropping in marginal areas as well as processing) and cheap corn, things that were never *that* cheap when the hidden costs are figured in in the first place, and which are becoming more expensive by the year. This may be what ultimately saves our bacon, so to speak, with regard to the subsidized corn and products of things that eat corn-based diet - the system created and heavily subsidized by the Nixon administration in order to keep food prices and thus unrest down among the working classes is finally unravelling at the seams as gas and water become more scarce. What I've mentioned above doesn't even address the issue of all the food we *import* because that, too, can be produced more cheaply (if in a more degraded form) in Thailand or China (and assume any shellfish that you see on the market, from shrimp to mussels to crayfish, unless specifically identified as coming from the Gulf or Atlantic, is being farmed in filthy, pesticide and antibiotic-laden ponds and inlets in Southeast Asia btw :) ). Checked any of that truckstop/convenience-store bagged snack food such as peanuts or dried fruit lately?

I got a bit off track, but the main point of my post re the food industry is that, like other industries we've mentioned, it *is* possible to feed our 350 million (and then some) sustainably and healthily, on food produced in this country - it's the greatest natural blessing our river-run and highly arable continent offers us. Ultimately, the prices would not even be *that* much higher, but it takes the will to remodel the industry from the ground up - and sustainably farming and processing livestock in particular requires space and fodder that will make animal protein significantly more expensive, even taking a lot of the waste associated with our insane supply chains out of the system.

Going back to a sustainable and humane way of producing and processing our livestock and its products in this country would not only be healthier for us, but it would *eliminate* a bunch of costs currently associated with dealing with losses endemic to these unsanitary mass-production systems; Obama's order banning the use of certain antibiotics in animal feed, while much screamed at by the industry, is actually a nudge in the right direction if it pushes an unsustainable and filthy system towards the breaking point, where they are forced to consider a different model and pathway to profit instead of continuing to apply bandaids (ammonia treatment, irradiation, antibiotics) to the existing one.

Agribusiness, as 'Food Inc.' exhaustively laid out, has its own lobbyists and a stranglehold on the poor eternally indentured servants of the land and illegal aliens who produce our food in the form of crushing debt and strongarming of their producers and the overhanging threat of deportation and blacklisting for its processors. We owe it to them to pressure Congress and the President to reform food safety and labor laws, environmental laws, to take our business elsewhere when we can, and apply whatever levers are at our disposal to expose the true costs of farming in this manner. And with corn hitting over 7.50 a bushel earlier this year even *with* the enormous subsidy it's been getting for the past 40 years, it's high time we did away with it (the corn subsidy) also. Sure, animal feed and thus beef/poultry prices will get more expensive - but think of all the much healthier food we could grow on that land, and less hungry for petroleum based fertilizer, at that.

Regards,
Nydia

Re Malse's post on 'they *could* sell it here, but they don't want to: You can blame that mentality for where all the light pickups went in the early 1990s. The profit margin simply wasn't large enough for their tastes, and the major automakers stopped selling them in this country, although you sure could see plenty of the cute little things (Chevy mini-pickups, etc) in Mexico...

Ford isn't willing to go to bat for something that isn't a high-return vehicle, particularly one that may cannibalize some of their existing markets. I know the blame-the-victim mentality is at an all time high this year in the US memesphere, but Ford could sell that car here and they know it, they don't want to do so for their own reasons.

As usual we have business interests aligned towards carving up the most of a rapidly shrinking pie. Sure it sounds dire now, oh we'd never return the investment yadayada, but this plans are tens of years in the making. If they'd wanted to do it, they would have started in years ago.

If that's the case, then how do you explain that foreign manufacturers have come to the same decision about this market too?

Too shortsighted. That sort of philosophy leads to the same "lot of people" having less and less over time. It's the sort of thinking that consolidates our GDP into junk like financial services and consumer consumption, leaving that median income stagnant for decades.

If people bought less, but bought more of it locally, they would end up having better jobs, more money, and better communities in relatively short order. Saving $0.50 on that spatula costs them far more in the long run.

The incentive is absolutely there: Self preservation. Unless we change our aggregate attitudes toward consumption, our middle and lower classes are going to remain in this death spiral.

There is simply no equation in which us rushing to send our money overseas, at a net trade deficit, results in long-term betterment for the average citizen. Any illusion to the contrary is just that.

I'm not sure how this is short sited to be honest with you. Over the past 20 years (when our trade deficit really began) we've had quite a "Buy American!" campaign and it hasn't helped us - at all. Hell, its been considerably longer that we've been trying to educate the poor about eating healthy and to wear a condom and that hasn't really been helping one iota either. The only thing most people can care about is the here and now, not planning for what might happen later. Those of us who are able to come here to the forums and discuss this stuff are probably more fortunate than most, too many people live paycheck to paycheck and the extra costs of said spatula doesn't seem worth it to them.

I also am not sure why the conversation is car centric here either (edit: here as in the US, not here as in the forums). We have less than 8 million car sales in the US each year, even if every one of those 8 million cars was purchased from a US auto maker that would barely affect less than one tenth of a percent of our current trade deficit. One industry isn't going to turn anything around. Sure, the recession is helping (we only added $30.7 billion in August compared to $31.9 billion in July which was greater yet in June, etc.) but only if we really get strict about our import/export ratio we're fucked - American cars aside.

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/growing.pdf

That's from 2003, and since then our deficit has practically doubled. I've long been a fan of the idea of Import Certificates, but sadly it never made it out of committee. This is one area where clearly without real government interference in the matter there really isn't going to be any realistic solution.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-3899

Dead in Committee, this was the last time this issue came up. Of course, it was a Republican Congress, Republican President, and a Democrat bill - so who knows, it may have a chance in the next few years.

I'm not sure how this is short sited to be honest with you. Over the past 20 years (when our trade deficit really began) we've had quite a "Buy American!" campaign and it hasn't helped us - at all. Hell, its been considerably longer that we've been trying to educate the poor about eating healthy and to wear a condom and that hasn't really been helping one iota either. The only thing most people can care about is the here and now, not planning for what might happen later. Those of us who are able to come here to the forums and discuss this stuff are probably more fortunate than most, too many people live paycheck to paycheck and the extra costs of said spatula doesn't seem worth it to them.

I'm not sure I understand where you're going here. You seem to be pointing out that our people are shortsighted, which is what I'm saying too.

That doesn't make it a virtue though.

We can't just throw our hands up and quit because it's tough to change public sentiment about these things. If we do, we're not much better than these shortsighted people we're talking about.

I also am not sure why the conversation is car centric here either (edit: here as in the US, not here as in the forums). We have less than 8 million car sales in the US each year, even if every one of those 8 million cars was purchased from a US auto maker that would barely affect less than one tenth of a percent of our current trade deficit. One industry isn't going to turn anything around. Sure, the recession is helping (we only added $30.7 billion in August compared to $31.9 billion in July which was greater yet in June, etc.) but only if we really get strict about our import/export ratio we're fucked - American cars aside.

I'm not sure how you can disdain 8,000,000 cars. At $20,000 each, that's $160 billion; a healthy chunk of the trade deficit.

The auto industry is important because it employs tons of people and is already operating. We can't buy American made plasma TVs and DVD players, but we can buy quality domestic vehicles and support our economy.

Those people out of work in Detroit can't afford cable to support your work or Internet access to support mine. We only hurt ourselves when we hurt each other.

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/growing.pdf

That's from 2003, and since then our deficit has practically doubled. I've long been a fan of the idea of Import Certificates, but sadly it never made it out of committee. This is one area where clearly without real government interference in the matter there really isn't going to be any realistic solution.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-3899

Dead in Committee, this was the last time this issue came up. Of course, it was a Republican Congress, Republican President, and a Democrat bill - so who knows, it may have a chance in the next few years.

I don't disagree that some legislated pressure against our trade deficit could be a good idea. We do need to be careful not to upset China and Japan with widespread protectionism though, since they're also our financiers. It's a very tricky row to hoe.

However, if we all wise up and simply make smarter long-term choices in our consumption, we can have the same net effect.

Ah, I thought you wrote that my post was short sighted (not short sited, oops) - you meant that the behavior was. You are right. However, its been 20 years and its only been getting worse (except for the present economic climate) - if it hasn't been changed yet, despite the Rising Sun era, its not going to get changed any time soon.

And looking over the math again, sure - 8 million cars would be great, but its also not what the story is. US Automakers already hold about half of the market share, so its only a 4 million car possibility. We all know that we'll never see US automakers corner the market here, and if they did it'd be through some crazy taxes leading to us being kicked out of the rest of the world, a net loss.

But, if we did something like Buffet's credits ... for every $1 we export, we can only import $1 - that's not a bad deal. We'd still import plenty of goods, help sure up our own economy, and there's still a large part of the globe that absolutely must import some sort of good.

Speaking of the long arm of agribusiness stifling an earnest discussion of reform, a well-known speaker on sustainable farming was stifled, his planned speech at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo converted into a multi-party panel discussion, after the head of Harris Ranch, a large scale cattle producer, threatened to pull his support of the of the institution:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-pollan15-2009oct15,0,4594350.story

Much like the health care and many other issues, the existing stake various parties have in the existing and dangerously broken system are often the biggest barrier to any rational discussion or reform of these industries. The problem with regard to agriculture is that after three decades of intensive consolidation so much of the production and financial power is in the hands of so few individuals/companies (eg: Monsanto) that attempts to diversify that base using alternative models is ruthlessly stamped out using whatever tactics the giants can bring to bear. And like health care, because much of this activity (and its associated costs) is invisible to the public, it's hard to get people to see the need for reform until the system threatens to collapse under its own weight (and sometimes not even then ;) ).

Regards,
Nydia