Thats why should just go back to isolationism, focus on our backyard and let the euros middle east and asia work out there problems for themselves.

To say we deserved 9/11 for hiroshima is just bullshit. I didnt see any japanese flying those planes. The rest is hipocrisy, Guess thats why europe has had terrosit activities as well. They must of deserved it for the crusades ww1 and 2

Thats why should just go back to isolationism, focus on our backyard and let the euros middle east and asia work out there problems for themselves.

To say we deserved 9/11 for hiroshima is just bullshit. I didnt see any japanese flying those planes. The rest is hipocrisy, Guess thats why europe has had terrosit activities as well. They must of deserved it for the crusades ww1 and 2

first of all, the only Al Qaida attacks taking place in europe that comes to mind is the spain one, and the uk one, both countries at the time had troops in the middle east....

also, what the shit are you talking about, hiroshima? you do know that the US has done some questionable and downright nasty shit globally since that, yes? if you want to do some reading, look up what the CIA pulled off all over south america.

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye," Rev. Wright said in a sermon on Sept. 16, 2001. "

Thats my reference to Hiroshima, from the first post of this thread.

As for how horrible the US is in Latin American Drug wars well Columbia is a much better country as a result. Maybe only a few attacks carried out in Europe by Al Qaida im not going to look them all up. Muslims in france, Denmark rioting I guess arent necasarily Al Qaida.

My point is merly lets see how the well the rest of the world does if The US just stops bieng the police and lets the rest of the world police itself.

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye," Rev. Wright said in a sermon on Sept. 16, 2001. "

Thats my reference to Hiroshima, from the first post of this thread.

As for how horrible the US is in Latin American Drug wars well Columbia is a much better country as a result. Maybe only a few attacks carried out in Europe by Al Qaida im not going to look them all up. Muslims in france, Denmark rioting I guess arent necasarily Al Qaida.

My point is merly lets see how the well the rest of the world does if The US just stops bieng the police and lets the rest of the world police itself.


The problems in South and Central America are not really the "drug war" it is animosities based based on the treatment of the indiginious peoples by Dole, Chiquita etc. They really did what they could to keep those countries poor.

Let them hate on the europeans for conquering them to begin with. The dutch were pretty smart to trade New York for South American real estate. Let them hate on them. We gave native americans the casino. Where we to run there goverment who saw those corperations as revenue opposed to none.

So capitilism that built there infastrcture, provided jobs medical ect via capitlism Dole, Chiquita moving there round stones which is the only complaint Ive heard. did the capitlism so destroy there life that they blow up my local banana dealer.

How is the US to blame for bananas. it could of just as easliy been a Dutch eiro company,. We didnt care about latin america until crack cocaine started robberies killings in america

How is the US to blame for bananas. it could of just as easliy been a Dutch eiro company,. We didnt care about latin america until crack cocaine started robberies killings in america

Entirely false. Latin America has been our self-styled satellite, whether they wanted to be or not and with our guns pointed that way to make sure, since the end of the 19th century. You might want to look up the Spanish-American war. It's not even ancient history, you co-habited the earth with people who were alive then.

For real fun, you can also learn how nearly all those cocaine empires were started by our own government as a means to fund our patsy armies (generally referred to as terrorists by the locals). Oops.

M-16s or Ak -47s ? Spanish American war well its like the wild west. Only Europe was involved.and cuba was the focal point to start it.

http://www.spanamwar.com/timeline.htm

and Ive seen blow ect. I do know that like columbia in the 80s the samething is happening on the borders of texas. the mexican goverment doesnt want to go to blind hidden judges like columbia tried and ecuador. One of my closets friends wouldnt be here if his dad wasnt an attorney there that had to flee for fear of assination from drug runners.

I think what Malse is trying to point out is that this is misleading:

February 15 - Battleship MAINE explodes, 266 crewmen killed.

We now believe that the Maine exploded either due to spontaneous combustion or due to our own sabotage. Either way, it's known that the Spanish had nothing to do with the explosion.

However, at the time, we claimed that a Spanish mine caused the explosion and used that as an excuse to go to war.

This was actually the specific incident that prompted the classic Hearst quote "You furnish the pictures and I'll furnish the war." In many ways, this conflict's newspaper coverage was the forefather of our current sensationalist media, more interested in riling us up than informing us.

So I guess what Im wondering is what are going to obtain from the US leaving Iraq , Afgan. ? Why is the US a target when everyone points out history 10 20 200 years ago. I dont see native americans blowing up buildings.

So we deserve bombs and airplanes in our high rise apraments to the sky. Or gun permits for students in higher education.. ? funny how a lady on cnn saw that as solution last night. thats a cure to the problem if you cant get on Jerry springer

Should I be killed for the attrocities my grandparents committed ?

and as for riling us up instead of informing us, well thats been going on for sometime. Your just now learning about Mexican border crossings and most didnt care about the hundreds of bodies found buried in houses accross the border.
Unless of course its some kid whose parents are connected, Here they just tell us to be careful in matamorez if you are going to go. but dont. Hell acapolco isnt much better now adays.

Oh yeah science back then was so great a mine or some drunk ass smoking next to a powder keg could of blown the boat. I garuntee no sailor is going to blow his boat when the closest land is 2k ft down.

If we stopped completly in world affairs onder how long it would take for everyone to change stances when China and russia are fighting the wars. Then we can scream how horrible there waterboarding or whatnot techniques are.

the US has been the worlds police for sometime., we arent paying for this war alone and many others.

So I guess what Im wondering is what are going to obtain from the US leaving Iraq , Afgan. ? Why is the US a target when everyone points out history 10 20 200 years ago. I dont see native americans blowing up buildings.

So we deserve bombs and airplanes in our high rise apraments to the sky. Or gun permits for students in higher education.. ? funny how a lady on cnn saw that as solution last night. thats a cure to the problem if you cant get on Jerry springer

Should I be killed for the attrocities my grandparents committed ?

and as for riling us up instead of informing us, well thats been going on for sometime. Your just now learnign about Mexican border crossings and most didnt care about the hudreds of bodies found buried in houses accross the border.
Unless of course its some kid whose parents are connected, Here they just tell us to be careful in matamorez if you are going to go. Hell acapolco isnt much better now adays.

Oh yeah science back then was so great a mine or some drunk ass smoking next to a powder keg could of blown the boat.

If we stopped completly in world affairs onder how long it would take for everyone to change stances when China and russia are fighting the wars. Then we can screan how horrible there waterboarding techniques are.

Nobody ever said it was fair or right for us to pay for someone else's mistakes, however it just is what it is.

We like to tout our freedom and our right to change our leadership when they steer us the wrong way, and to many people that makes us responsible for what our government does I think earned but not deserved makes perfect sense.

We do most of our damage indirectly... Our feelings of Israel aside, our support for them is one of the biggest failures to protect America. The war in Afghanistan is not that big of an issue to the middle east for instance, and leaving would be a mistake.

So we deserve bombs and airplanes in our high rise apraments to the sky. Or gun permits for students in higher education.. ? funny how a lady on cnn saw that as solution last night. thats a cure to the problem if you cant get on Jerry springer

Should I be killed for the attrocities my grandparents committed ?

It's not your grandparents' government that set us up for this. It's your parents' government. The things we've done in the Middle East decades ago directly trained and armed the same people we call "terrorists" today. We were the original OBL.

Do you realize that in 1953, we aided in overthrowing a peaceful, democratic government in Iran; replacing it with a dictatorship? Our current problem in Iran is entirely the result of our own actions.

I can't even imagine the repercussions Bush has set in motion for our children and their children.

So I guess what Im wondering is what are going to obtain from the US leaving Iraq , Afgan. ? Why is the US a target when everyone points out history 10 20 200 years ago. I dont see native americans blowing up buildings.


You're totally missing the point. We have mountains of evidence (also known as history) of why people dislike us, going back to basic policy decision we made abut who was in charge of the western hemisphere a hundred years ago (coincidentally, we decided WE we're in charge), who was going to control oil trade, who was going to be the only superpower, who owned orbital space, who got to veto the entire UN at whim (just look at how many resolutions died, ENTIRE WORLD vs the two votes of US and Israel), etc.

It should thus be absolutely no surprise whatsoever, when after a century of such behavior, as we kept doing the exact same thing, the grudges we so thoroughly engender outside our own borders come back to us.

And re: your point, you DID see Native Americans engaged in guerilla warfare against their occupiers for nearly four hundred years, the cowboy movies you probably loved watching where whitey shoots 50 Apaches for shooting up a settlement in the boonies were the Rambo stories about the WTCs of 1860.

As Jedd pointed out elsewhere, leaving Afghanistan isn't much of an issue in the Middle East. The Taliban's only allies were extremists like themselves. Even Iran was supportive in our efforts to wipe them out, but they have oil and are a convenient boogeyman, thus the Iraqesque treatment they're being given.

Leaving Iraq saves American lives and American coin and forces the Iraqi government to rely on their own resources for solvency rather than ours. That may not work, but our continued presence only delays whatever post-occupation violence may erupt while costing hundreds of billions of dollars in immediate costs and 1 or 2 (or more) trillion down the road.

Leaving Iraq saves American lives and American coin and forces the Iraqi government to rely on their own resources for solvency rather than ours. That may not work, but our continued presence only delays whatever post-occupation violence may erupt while costing hundreds of billions of dollars in immediate costs and 1 or 2 (or more) trillion down the road.
I think a rational person, interested in the well being of the Iraqi people, would absolutely agree.

However, I don't believe the well being of the people there is really high on our list of goals. Stable oil and keeping them on the dollar peg for their oil transactions is likely why we're there. That's why you see us continually doing things that don't necessarily make humanitarian sense.

So whats the better alternative?

A world with China at the helm? A European Hegemony? Its obvious there has to be one almighty over-arching super power and that the world JUST CAN'T RULE ITSELF CO-OPERATIVELY.

Chinese is a hard language to learn and Europe has a questionable track record. Probably spottier than the US's but that is just because they have been in the game longer. Still, these guys can do a much better job than us asshole Americans, right?

There are alot of Euro's who have found some "nationalism" for the EU. The Euro is kicking the dollar's ass. The Airbus 380 is bigger than the 747 etc etc. Big deal. Take all that cocky pride and lead the world then. We have shitty schools to restructure. Endless infrastructure to re-think and rebuild to reflect the real cost of energy. We have alot of elderly baby boomers to care for. We have ALOT of issues at home that take a back seat so we can play world police with trillions of borrowed dollars.

So go on. Run the fucking show, Europe. The muslim world should have forgiven you by now for the Great Crusades. Have at it China...build your aircraft carriers, take Taiwan, turn Africa into your new Empire. Rule the world and take the resposibility. With it comes the blame and the hate. Global warming? China! Devour all the world's resources? China! You have the most people so you should have most of the world's wealth right? You have billions of people to make the global police force, so whats a few dead soldiers to a nation that has no concept of human rights to begin with?

Be our fucking guest. You might even do a good job, even if life in the US becomes an act of paying restitution (which it will be based on all the sour grapes) and living like dirt.

/rant off.

I think a rational person, interested in the well being of the Iraqi people, would absolutely agree.

However, I don't believe the well being of the people there is really high on our list of goals. Stable oil and keeping them on the dollar peg for their oil transactions is likely why we're there. That's why you see us continually doing things that don't necessarily make humanitarian sense.
I agree, the oil issue was a major reason for going there in the first place (remember when oil would allow the inexpensive war to pay for itself?). Unfortunately, from the get go the Iraqis' well being has been a tool rather than a goal. But just give it another 6/12/18/1200 months and it will all work out.

The Taliban's only allies were extremists like themselves. Even Iran was supportive in our efforts to wipe them out, but they have oil and are a convenient boogeyman, thus the Iraqesque treatment they're being given.



I agree that Iran could have been an ally, and yet disagree with why we are doing the chest-thumping routine, due to my tinfoil hat proclivity. I am still convinced until I see proof otherwise that the main reason the Cheney-led cabal is so adamant on going to war with Iran is that there is somewhere some evidence in Iran that Cheney and Halliburton are somehow involved via their contracts of the 70's/80's in furthering the Iranian nuclear program, whether it was through infra-structure development such as roads and piping of water and power, or the actual building of structures for the plants. That was their forte', construction-wise. Why else would Cheney be so rabid in his pursuit of bombing the country flat?

Ok, tinhat back in the closet for a while, in case the NSA is reading the forums today.

Why else would Cheney be so rabid in his pursuit of bombing the country flat?Making sure there are plenty of enemies we have to be afraid of, keeping the military-industrial complex rolling in dollars, to force a world-vs-the-Muslims showdown that would result in the region being turned into glass-topped oil pits ripe for the plucking...all sorts of delightful possibilities!

I realize the glass topped oil rig pits is tongue in cheek but I do have a question.

Wouldn't radioactive oil be worthless for a couple of hundred years?;P

Lead lined Hummers, of course!

LMAO long as I get to keep my Avalanche it's all good then. I shan't worry if the lead lining the gastank and engine will add even more weight and thusly decrease my MPG even more ;P

Radioactivity has a weight and can be separated in water where oil would rise to the surface. It wouldn't be that difficult to clean it.

Really, my understanding is that it'll bind at the atomic level and will decay normally as opposed to being able to sift it out.

I learn something new everyday, of course sometimes I don't reconize said learning till much later ;P

Radioactivity has a weight and can be separated in water where oil would rise to the surface. It wouldn't be that difficult to clean it.

hahhaahahahahahaaaaaaahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah aaaaaa.

Really, my understanding is that it'll bind at the atomic level and will decay normally as opposed to being able to sift it out.

I learn something new everyday, of course sometimes I don't reconize said learning till much later ;P

High school chemistry was a long time ago, but I know they use water to wash radiation away in cases of leaks or spills. I assumed that'd work with oil as well ... very well could be wrong :)
Radiation from an atom bomb is really like a Helium nucleus without any electron's, right?

History is a powerul thing, Nekko.

History is a powerul thing


It is also one of the most denied things.

High school chemistry was a long time ago, but I know they use water to wash radiation away in cases of leaks or spills. I assumed that'd work with oil as well ... very well could be wrong :)
Radiation from an atom bomb is really like a Helium nucleus without any electron's, right?

...


That's not right. That's not even wrong.

Asked my dad about this over the weekend. He's a chemist in R&D for GE Betz in their industrial water treatment division. Water is used (often with soap) to get radioactive dust and debris off objects following an explosion. If a "dirty bomb" goes off, first thing you want to do is wash yourself off. However, with oil the radioactivity will probably change the molecular structure, taking the Carbon 12s to Carbon 14s and it won't be usable as fuel exactly as Fandros said. You can't wash or refine that away and being near it would be dangerous.

But ultimately oil sits a thousand feet below the ground and wouldn't be affected by a nuclear blast. It just makes gathering it difficult working in all the radiation above ground.

Side shaft drilling from a non-irradiated surface area, a-la Kuwait?

At that point, it's cheaper to extract it from Colorado or Canada's oil shell at $150 / barrell.

And cheaper still to use that nuclear material and build nuclear power plants and drive tesla roadsters. We have a new plant being built which is gonna make my energy costs go down! Very excited.

Still use gas for heating, cooking, and my car though.

We have a new plant being built which is gonna make my energy costs go down! Very excited.


HAHAHAHA...oh yeah.....wanna buy a bridge? please.

Asked my dad about this over the weekend. He's a chemist in R&D for GE Betz in their industrial water treatment division. Water is used (often with soap) to get radioactive dust and debris off objects following an explosion. If a "dirty bomb" goes off, first thing you want to do is wash yourself off. However, with oil the radioactivity will probably change the molecular structure, taking the Carbon 12s to Carbon 14s and it won't be usable as fuel exactly as Fandros said. You can't wash or refine that away and being near it would be dangerous.
Other way around with the carbon. Carbon 14 is your unstable, radioactive isotope -- occasionally spits out a couple protons and downsizes to C12.

So yes, if you get dusty you wash yourself off with soap and water. If it's radioactive dust, scrub harder. Soap and water won't wash away radioactivity, only whatever glowing goo you've covered yourself or your favorite inanimate object with.

The point of scrubbing down is to limit ingestion, and contamination of mucus membranes and/or wounds. Both of those vectors are far more potent than simple exterior radiation.

The point of scrubbing down is to limit ingestion, and contamination of mucus membranes


/smack forehead

Now I understand what she meant by better grab a shower after......

Other way around with the carbon. Carbon 14 is your unstable, radioactive isotope -- occasionally spits out a couple protons and downsizes to C12.

So yes, if you get dusty you wash yourself off with soap and water. If it's radioactive dust, scrub harder. Soap and water won't wash away radioactivity, only whatever glowing goo you've covered yourself or your favorite inanimate object with.

That's what I said. ;)

HAHAHAHA...oh yeah.....wanna buy a bridge? please.

Actually a large chunk of our power already comes from nuclear in this area and our energy costs aren't rising as rapidly as the rest of the country despite the dramatic increase in demand (pretty much doubling every 15 years). It won't go down as much as it won't go up nearly as high as everyone else's.