Dear Republican Leaders: The Republican Party has become the party dedicated to sabotaging the American future.

You Republicans are the arsonists who burned down our national home. You combined the failed ideologies of the Religious Right, so-called free market deregulation and the Neoconservative love of war to light a fire that has consumed America. Now you have the nerve to criticize the "architect" America just hired -- President Obama -- to rebuild from the ashes. You do nothing constructive, just try to hinder the one person willing and able to fix the mess you created.

I used to be one of you. As recently as 2000 I worked to get Senator McCain elected in that year's primary. (McCain and Gen. Tommy Franks wrote glowing endorsements regarding my book about military service, AWOL.). I have a file of handwritten thank you notes from Presidents Ford, Reagan, Bush I and II. In the 1970s and early 80s I hung out with Jack Kemp and bought into his "supply side" myth and even wrote a book he endorsed pushing his ideas.) There's more, but take it from me; my parents (evangelical leaders Francis and Edith Schaeffer) and I were about as tight with -- and useful to -- the Republican Party as anyone. We played a big part creating the Religious Right.

In the mid 1980s I left the Religious Right, after I realized just how very anti-American they are, (the theme I explore in my book Crazy For God). They wanted America to fail in order to prove they were right about America's "moral decline." Soon after McCain lost in 2000 I re-registered as an independent in disgust with W. Bush. But I still respected many Republicans. Not today.

How can anyone who loves our country support the Republicans now? Barry Goldwater, William F. Buckley and Ronald Reagan defined the modern conservatism that used to be what the Republican Party I belonged to was about. Today no actual conservative can be a Republican. Reagan would despise today's wholly negative Republican Party. And can you picture the gentlemanly and always polite Ronald Reagan, endorsing a radio hate-jock slob who crudely mocked a man with Parkinson's and who now says he wants an American president to fail?!

With people like Limbaugh as the loudmouth image of the Republican Party -- you need no enemies. But something far more serious has happened than an image problem: the Republican Party has become the party of obstruction at just the time when all Americans should be pulling together for the good of our country. Instead, Republicans are today's fifth column sabotaging American renewal.

President Obama has been in office barely 45 days and the Republican Party has the nerve to blame him for the economic and military cataclysm he inherited. I say economic and military cataclysm because without the needless war in Iraq you all backed we would not be in the economic mess we're in today. If that money had been spent here at home on renovating our infrastructure, taking us toward a green economy, putting our health-care system in order we'd be a very different situation.

As the father of a Marine who served in George W. Bush's misbegotten wars let me say this: if President Obama's strategy to repair our economy, infrastructure and healthcare fails that will put our troops at far greater risk because the world will become a far more dangerous place. So for all you flag-waving Republicans who are trying to undermine the President at home -- if you succeed more of our troops will be killed abroad.

When your new leader Rush Limbaugh calls for President Obama to fail he's calling for more flag-draped coffins. Limbaugh is the new "Hanoi Jane."

For the party that created our crises of misbegotten war, mismanaged economy, the lack of regulation of our banking industry, handing our country to rich crooks... to obstruct the one person who is trying to repair the damage is obscene.

Just imagine where America would be today if the 14 to 20 million voters -- "the rube base" who slavishly follow the likes of Limbaugh -- had not voted as a block year after year thus empowering the Republican fiasco. We would have a regulated banking industry and would have avoided our current financial crisis; some 4000 of our killed military men and women would be alive; over to 35,000 wounded Americans would be whole; we would have been leaders in the environmental movement; we would be in the middle of a green technology boom fueling a huge expansion of our economy and stopping our dependence on foreign oil, and our health-care system would be reformed.

After Obama was elected, you Republican leaders had a unique last chance to send a patriotic message of unity to the world -- and to all Americans. You could have backed our president's economic recovery plan. Since we all know that half of our problem is one of lost confidence and perception, nothing would have done more to calm the markets and project resolve and confidence than if you had been big enough to take Obama's offered hand and had work with him -- even if you disagreed ideologically. You had the chance to put our country first. You utterly failed to rise to the occasion.

The worsening economic situation is your fault and your fault alone. The Republicans created this mess through 8 years of backing the worst president in our history and now, because you put partisan ideology ahead of the good of our country, you have blown your last chance to redeem yourselves. You deserve the banishment to the political wilderness that awaits all traitors.

Frank Schaeffer is the author of CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back Now in paperback.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/open-letter-to-the-republ_b_172822.html

LoL now a talking head is revealed!!

that brings the lol's....

Funny thing is he is right about everything he said...

Frank Schaeffer is the real deal, he hit the nail on the head.

uhhhh you're wrong...lol It's a good comedy bit though...

uhhhh you're wrong...lol It's a good comedy bit though...

LOL...yeah...so were the past 8 years..HAHAHAHAHA...unfortunately...they are killing us.

uhhhh you're wrong...lol It's a good comedy bit though...

You are the example of exactly what he is talking about, so its funny that you make yourself look stupid in the same thread where he points out people like you.

yes yes of course Jedd.. I understand... yes yes..ROFL If This is any indication of Obama's Tenure in office then America MUST fail so it can rebuild... Seems a lot of people agree with me on that point.. Obama MUST fail.

yes yes of course Jedd.. I understand... yes yes..ROFL If This is any indication of Obama's Tenure in office then America MUST fail so it can rebuild... Seems a lot of people agree with me on that point.. Obama MUST fail.

i am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

yes yes of course Jedd.. I understand... yes yes..ROFL If This is any indication of Obama's Tenure in office then America MUST fail so it can rebuild... Seems a lot of people agree with me on that point.. Obama MUST fail.

As your kind used to say for the last 8 years... If you don't like it.... LEAVE!

I placed your e-mail adress up for a free subscription to the Limbaugh Letter... Thank me later.

As your kind used to say for the last 8 years... If you don't like it.... LEAVE!


No, we will watch it wither and die from within.

No, we will watch it wither and die from within.

I find it funny how the party who cant even get 50% of the popular vote, somehow thinks they are the majority!

26% of Americans consider themselves Republican... You guys are on your way out :)

No, we will watch it wither and die from within.

i think someones been reading their terrible ayn rand books! are you going to gulch it up? maybe just a little?

There really is no real way to measure the radio audience of Limbaugh, even his staff admits that, so it is only an estimate based on huge assumptions.

I watched Ron Paul the other night and he said that Republicans that identify with Limbaugh are only around 11% of the total.

I would agree with that.. I never listen to him in all honesty.. I just have a screaming headache so don't feel like debating this foolish letter on an intellectual level... trolling is easier atm.

I would agree with that.. I never listen to him in all honesty.. I just have a screaming headache so don't feel like debating this foolish letter on an intellectual level... trolling is easier atm.


Well you need to consider the letter is written from experience. Kind of hard to tell someone their experience is wrong...then again we live in the world of the "Google Insta-Expert" so...I guess anything is game.

I don't think Obama is equiped to get us out of anything. Just my opinion. But Obama has the house and senate to work with.... so lets see what he can do.. I hope he does fail at most of his plans..... I hope the US prospers... I know we will dig out of this situation but have no faith that we will ever truely correct the problems....

I just want the market back on its feet in 10-20 years so I will be hugely rich :)

The loudmouth letter incorrectly asserts all republicans are neo-con evangelical right fundies. Simply not true. not even close.

He asserts LImbaugh as the lead of the GoP. Simply not true. This whole smear campaign and against a prvate citizen is nothing more then to try and deflect attention on Barry's Socialist re-engineering of America.

and I astrongly disagree with his notion of we were unpatriotoc in our duty NOT to vote for the porkulus bill... Neigh we are the ONLY patriots left figthing for Capatalism and freedom of business.. The socialist left has sold Americas soul to Karl Marx... Now let me go to bed before this migraine makes me puke.

lets disregard osgiliaths insane ramblings for now, and instead ask ourselves this:

hope he does fail at most of his plans..... I hope the US prospers...

because obviously obama wants the US to not prosper? what kind of back ass logic are you using here?

No oboma wants his agenda to prosper.. it has nothing to do with America.

The loudmouth letter incorrectly asserts all republicans are neo-con evangelical right fundies. Simply not true. not even close.

He asserts LImbaugh as the lead of the GoP. Simply not true. This whole smear campaign and against a prvate citizen is nothing more then to try and deflect attention on Barry's Socialist re-engineering of America.

and I astrongly disagree with his notion of we were unpatriotoc in our duty NOT to vote for the porkulus bill... Neigh we are the ONLY patriots left figthing for Capatalism and freedom of business.. The socialist left has sold Americas soul to Karl Marx... Now let me go to bed before this migraine makes me puke.


LOL...he asserts that all that is left in the republican party is neo-con evangelical right fundies that is true. You call the bill a porkulus bill...lol...it is a bill that directs spending at areas that have been grossly neglected since Reagan was president. You are unpatriotic, you supported a past president who disregarded the very thing that you wave, the constitution.

What have you ever done for this country? Nothing and that is by your own admission. You don't even realize that what you think was capitalism was nothing close to it. You buy into the hype that tax breaks create jobs and make companies more competitive yet every single business owner I know has very little or no problems with the taxes they pay but they have huge issues with healthcare costs.

Live with it Osg, your icons lost...they drove America down a very dark road and your grandkids will pay for that.

I don't think Obama is equiped to get us out of anything. Just my opinion. But Obama has the house and senate to work with.... so lets see what he can do.. I hope he does fail at most of his plans..... I hope the US prospers... I know we will dig out of this situation but have no faith that we will ever truely correct the problems....

I just want the market back on its feet in 10-20 years so I will be hugely rich :)

Everyone on TV always talks about the Dow and stock market but the DJIA isn't really a great indicator of how the financial markets are doing. If you want to know how the financial sector is doing, one good indicator is the TED spread.

Higher is Bad, look at how it has leveled off since guess who was elected.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/cbuilder?ticker1=.TEDSP:IND

I only admitted that I never served in our armed forces.. How do you know I am not a public servant right now? Yes but I think it's starting to become plainly obvious the mistake those who voted for Oboma have made. I have head many people say to me "oh shit what'd I do." My poor randchilderen will be forced to pay for Oboma's mistakes for decades.. I weep for America. I weep for you Rover. Your the sad example of what has happned to this great nation.

On March 9, Brannon Howse of Worldview Radio interviewed author James Simpson. Entitled “Barack Obama is Destroying Our Economy on Purpose,” Howse’s interview of Simpson concentrated on Columbia University professors Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven who wrote an article in 1966 for The Nation magazine. “The article was published on May 2, 1966 and laid out what is now known as the ‘Cloward-Piven Strategy’. The plan calls for the destruction of capitalism in America by swelling the welfare rolls to the point of collapsing our economy and then implementing socialism by nationalizing many private institutions,” explains a synopsis on the Worldview Radio website. “Cloward and Piven studied Saul Alinsky just like Hillary Clinton and President Obama.”

Alinsky is considered to be the founder of modern community organizing in America. Alinsky’s teachings influenced Obama early in his career as a community organizer on the far South Side of Chicago. Obama worked for Gerald Kellman’s Developing Communities Project where he learned and taught Alinsky’s methods for community organizing. Obama would later work for ACORN (the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.

According to Sol Stern of the Manhattan Institute, ACORN is a modern successor of the radical 1960’s “New Left” and holds a “1960’s-bred agenda of anti-capitalism” to be implemented through “undisguised authoritarian socialism.”
featured-stories - Obama, the Cloward-Piven Strategy, and the New World Order
Camp Delta

“This new and complete Revolution we contemplate can be defined in a very few words. It is … outright world-socialism, scientifically planned and directed,” H.G. Wells wrote in The New World Order.


It is a brand of “undisguised authoritarian socialism” supported by the establishment. As the Union News reported last October, ACORN receives funding from the Robin Hood Foundation, a charity supported — to the tune $9,859,453 — by the globalist George Soros and his Soros Fund Charitable Foundation.

“Soros is the visible side of a vast and nasty secret network of private financial interests, controlled by the leading aristocratic and royal families of Europe, centered in the British House of Windsor,” writes William Engdahl. According to Engdahl, Soros “is part of a tightly knit financial mafia — ‘mafia,’ in the sense of a closed masonic-like fraternity of families pursuing common aims.”

As Antony Sutton documented (Wall Street & the Bolshevik Revolution), the very fount of “authoritarian socialism” was created and lavishly funded by the bankers. “The involvement of the Rockefellers with their supposed blood enemies, the Communists, dates back to the Bolshevik Revolution,” notes Gary Allen (None Dare Call it Conspiracy, chapter 6). “The Federal Reserve-CFR insiders began pushing to open up Communist Russia to U.S. traders soon after the revolution.”

In addition, the bankers have supported “communism” in the United States. Considering this, it should come as no surprise the anti-capitalist “Cloward-Piven Strategy” was published by The Nation, a magazine with a well-documented connection to the CIA. As researcher Bob Feldman notes, The Nation is connected to the National Endowment for Democracy, a CIA front group involved in overthrowing countries around the world by way of “color revolution.” The CIA has a history of collaboration with the Ford Foundation (see James Petras: “The Ford Foundation and the CIA: A documented case of philanthropic collaboration with the Secret Police”).



In 1954, Rowan Gaither of the Ford Foundation told Reese Commission investigator Norman Dodd that “the directives under which we operate is that we shall use our grant making power to alter life in the United States so that we can comfortably be merged with the Soviet Union.”

This merging with the Soviet Union (or more accurately, “authoritarian socialism”) has nothing to do with the sort of communism taught in school textbooks — a dictatorship of the proletariat and the workers — but rather it is an authoritarian control system engineered by the bankers and the global elite. “This new and complete Revolution we contemplate can be defined in a very few words. It is … outright world-socialism, scientifically planned and directed,” H.G. Wells wrote in The New World Order.

It is a mistake to believe the Cloward-Piven Strategy is scheme cooked up by academic Marxists of “New Left” bent dedicated to the destruction of capitalism in the name of some sort of vaguely defined humanitarianism. In fact, “the destruction of capitalism in America by swelling the welfare rolls to the point of collapsing our economy and then implementing socialism by nationalizing many private institutions” is a meticulous plan on the part of the global elite to consolidate power and destroy all opposition.

It has nothing to do with liberating the proletariat but rather subjecting them to banker engineered “world-socialism, scientifically planned and directed” and devised to transform the planet into a banker dominated high-tech prison gulag.

I only admitted that I never served in our armed forces.. How do you know I am not a public servant right now? Yes but I think it's starting to become plainly obvious the mistake those who voted for Oboma have made. I have head many people say to me "oh shit what'd I do." My poor randchilderen will be forced to pay for Oboma's mistakes for decades.. I weep for America. I weep for you Rover. Your the sad example of what has happned to this great nation.


I also know you are a part time security guard. If you were a public servant you should probably give it credit for your continued employment.

Your poor grandchildren are going to be paying for the wars we fought on a credit card, the stimulus package is designed to be paid through tax revenues over a much smaller period of time.

You have no understanding of reality, it is apparent in your posts.

HAHAH Security guard.. No no you simpleton I work for the state. Protecting and serving on a daily basis... You poor blind lost little Obamanite...

Everyone on TV always talks about the Dow and stock market but the DJIA isn't really a great indicator of how the financial markets are doing. If you want to know how the financial sector is doing, one good indicator is the TED spread.

Higher is Bad, look at how it has leveled off since guess who was elected.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/cbuilder?ticker1=.TEDSP:IND

Well, I don't invest in the TED :) I invest in the stock market largely via mutual funds and they suck right now....however, I have doubled my contributions in an effort to reap the rewards later....

I did look at the TED thing you listed which I had never heard of.... If the financial sector is leveling out now... all I can say is it sucks..... and if it sucks then I guess we can blame Obama for that now?

lets disregard osgiliaths insane ramblings for now, and instead ask ourselves this:



because obviously obama wants the US to not prosper? what kind of back ass logic are you using here?

I'm saying, I hope the US miraculously prospers. I believe that Obama believes he is doing what he believes (wow that is a lot of beliefs) is correct.... But so far i don't like the majority of his ideas for my country.

Wiggo, you are in another country correct? Which one is it and how are things there?

http://i40.tinypic.com/fp02t1.jpg

Well, I don't invest in the TED :) I invest in the stock market largely via mutual funds and they suck right now....however, I have doubled my contributions in an effort to reap the rewards later....

I did look at the TED thing you listed which I had never heard of.... If the financial sector is leveling out now... all I can say is it sucks..... and if it sucks then I guess we can blame Obama for that now?

The problem as you show is this insanity of "instant gratification". What happened to the wisdom of patience? The man has been in office for 50 days...50 days. Think about it. It is clearly unrealistic for this to rebound in 50 days. I guess I really don't understand people anymore...the impetuous ways are surely our demise here.

The problem as you show is this insanity of "instant gratification". What happened to the wisdom of patience?


So, using a patient approach, would buying Bear-Stearns now when it is down to $2 a share be a wise move, for long term (think 10-20 years) profit?
Just curious.

Oh come on Osi, you mean it was on the rise with Bush and then tanked when OBama took office. He inherited this mess, even if McCain had won the economy would still be tanking.

The current economy woes IMO, are not partisan based but a machine that both sides benefited from and then got out of control. you can't 120 days into a administration start the i weep for my grandparents shit, its just sad.

Also the neo-cons you claim arent the GOP, are the ones that typically are in the news and making the big decisions.

but oboma promised to take care of my mortgage!!!! asshole!

So, using a patient approach, would buying Bear-Stearns now when it is down to $2 a share be a wise move, for long term (think 10-20 years) profit?
Just curious.

I don't know...I go by a very simple philosophy with the stock market. If you can't afford to lose it don't put it in the stock market.

but oboma promised to take care of my mortgage!!!! asshole!

He never said anything remotely close to that...it was actually McCain that said that during the campaign. What Obama is doing is quite smart.

The original post and it's contents reflect a series of very broad generalizations.

If you think that's the republican party and it encompasses all of us you are daft.

This was bound to happen. Obama was so hyped to the point of being a cult figure and when he took office, people expected miracles to happen.

Well they arn't going to happen without time, work, and the patience to see past the first two. Since the economy didn't do an immidiate about face the next day after Obama was sworn in, of couse the GOP is going to jump right down his throat, all the while offering as much resistance/indifference as possible along the way to ASSURE that he fails. This is a global problem. Why is it that so many seem to believe it all rests on the shoulders of one man?

Perhaps if all the idealogical BULLSHIT had not so thoroughly overwritten a sense of common duty to the people or even common fucking sense for that matter, perhaps we could actually move forward.

Now It seems like if we had a dictator in charge. or a computer or a troope of baboons we might be better off. One thing is for sure, things are never going back to the same ole same ole. To think that we as a country can go back to exactly how it was before this downturn is pure folly. Its not sustainable. Each party is very good at looking out for their own interests, much like any other club or faternity. If you are in the club or are a good friend of the key members, life is very good for you indeed. Now the government is facing a challenge of helping out their actual constituents instead of their buddies. Can they actually do it?


Probably not. Compromise is not written into the Constitution.

I'm saying, I hope the US miraculously prospers. I believe that Obama believes he is doing what he believes (wow that is a lot of beliefs) is correct.... But so far i don't like the majority of his ideas for my country.

Wiggo, you are in another country correct? Which one is it and how are things there?

yes, i live in sweden.
how things are? well, uh, guessing you mean the current financial and job markets...not very good, we are getting, if you will, dragged down by the global market; our car industry (volvo, saab, and all of their suppliers) are going down the shitter atm. one investment bank was nationalized for being reckless morons, not sure what else you wanted to know.

yes, i live in sweden.
how things are? well, uh, guessing you mean the current financial and job markets...not very good, we are getting, if you will, dragged down by the global market; our car industry (volvo, saab, and all of their suppliers) are going down the shitter atm. one investment bank was nationalized for being reckless morons, not sure what else you wanted to know.


No actually that is what I wanted to know.... I really don't know a whole lot about the rest of the worlds state of their unions..... However many of you foreigners have a decent handle on what is going on here.

I hope that didn't come across as anything but informational.

The original post and it's contents reflect a series of very broad generalizations.

If you think that's the republican party and it encompasses all of us you are daft.

You need to see the interview of Frank Schaeffer to have a better understanding and he is correct. The republican leadership since Reagan has played mostly to the religious right it has basically removed any real identification with fiscal and constitutional conservatives. Most of them have left the party or have been chastised out of it.

The faces of the republican party used to be people like Buckley, Goldwater, Eisenhower, now it is Coulter, Limbaugh, Crystal. Anyone with any sensible plan or anyone who dare speaks out is pretty much publicly flogged there is no discourse allowed. You know that is true.

The party is becoming smaller because people are leaving it and they are leaving it because it is becoming a scary place to be. Think about it, a party who openly advocates war with any country not in line with the US and yet not one of their leaders has served one single day in the military. Look at Chuck Norris, a vocal republican calling for the overthrow of the United States by force and invoking the constitution as being sacred but ignoring that part about voting, and Norris another one who never served in any capacity.

Wow Os, from the "patriot" party you wish ill for America and it's people. If you really believe what you are spouting you and your ilk do not deserve to be called Americans.

On the other hand, to simply blame Republicans for all this countries ills is well, for lack of a better work, naive. Though I tend to agree more with some of policies of the Demo atm, they ARE part of the problem as well.

You need to see the interview of Frank Schaeffer to have a better understanding and he is correct. The republican leadership since Reagan has played mostly to the religious right it has basically removed any real identification with fiscal and constitutional conservatives. Most of them have left the party or have been chastised out of it.

The faces of the republican party used to be people like Buckley, Goldwater, Eisenhower, now it is Coulter, Limbaugh, Crystal. Anyone with any sensible plan or anyone who dare speaks out is pretty much publicly flogged there is no discourse allowed. You know that is true.

The party is becoming smaller because people are leaving it and they are leaving it because it is becoming a scary place to be. Think about it, a party who openly advocates war with any country not in line with the US and yet not one of their leaders has served one single day in the military. Look at Chuck Norris, a vocal republican calling for the overthrow of the United States by force and invoking the constitution as being sacred but ignoring that part about voting, and Norris another one who never served in any capacity.

This is the problem with having the labels to begin with. Why can't I vote Republican and still believe in fiscal responsibility and limited government? Hell, I voted for Bush specifically because he promised that (fail). You can't label me by my voter registration.

They force us to identify with a party instead of having parties cater to what we believe. We all lose in that system.

This is the problem with having the labels to begin with. Why can't I vote Republican and still believe in fiscal responsibility and limited government? Hell, I voted for Bush specifically because he promised that (fail). You can't label me by my voter registration.

They force us to identify with a party instead of having parties cater to what we believe. We all lose in that system.


Well in response to both you and Fandros, his letter was not to every republican in America, but rather to every republican politician.

I still believe in abolishing labels (aka the party system) and having people run on thier own merits.

I still believe in abolishing labels (aka the party system) and having people run on thier own merits.


That would be a dream come true but would mean people like Osg and Jedd couldn't argue for 5 pages of nonsense. :p

While this guy may have some good points I ignore people who make broad generalizations. I think our biggest problem is a nation is that we've allowed ourselves to be divided amongst two parties when most polls/research I've seen suggests we all generally believe and want the same things. Why vest yourself in a party so much and not look past that label? You guys calling the other one idiot/idiotic/biased/dumb look pretty much the same to me.

Getting rid of the party labels may sound like a good idea, but the reality of it would be awful.

You are always going to have blocs, coalitions and groups that work together. Having only two parties has the effect of moderating people on both sides and bringing more people to the middle.

It may be ugly at times, but the two party system is the best one out there.

To the middle? Huh? The middle of what? Anarchy and total order?

The two party system divides up huge majorities of people who all agree on what's fundamentally important. Stupid issues like abortion get turned into divisive, hot topics, and we're distracted from the fact that both "sides" have basically the same lame policies on the big picture items.

As a student of history, this divide-and-conquer tactic of theirs should be obvious to you.

You cant get rid of people grouping together in political parties unless you figure out how to change human nature. Pol Pot realized this.

So the choice in a democratic system is 2 party or multiparty. The fact is that Multi Party systems empower the extremes because of the need for coalition building.

The fact is that Multi Party systems empower the extremes because of the need for coalition building.

Very true in some countries. The power wielded by some of the extreme religious parties in Israel are a good example of this.

How about Switzerland?

Or, how about the voting system in Australia?

There is a lot of room for improvement in our system of Democracy, that doesn't include continuing to pander to the divisive, two-party football game.

Switzerland has 7.5 Million people and uses direct democracy. There isnt much that can be used on the scale of our government and the size of our population.

As far as Australia, I don't mind the preferential voting system, but in practice, Australia has been a de facto 2 party system for the last 30 years, with labor in complete domination for the last 10.

The 2 Party system is far from perfect, but the overwhelming factors destroying our government is
A. Money. Vast sums of money though lobbying have a corrupting influence. The K Street Project is a great example. Tom Delay used to charge people 10k just to walk in his office door and talk to him. I think Obama is on the right track and hope he can destroy the influence peddling, or at least take it down a few notches.

B. Ignorance. We are a ridiculously ignorant society. Until we become a more aware, less trivial and less pop culture society, the choices don't matter because we are far too easily lied to and manipulated with almost minimal effort and insulting brazenness.

B. Ignorance. We are a ridiculously ignorant society. Until we become a more aware, less trivial and less pop culture society, the choices don't matter because we are far too easily lied to and manipulated with almost minimal effort and insulting brazenness.


It is much easier to listen to Rush Limbaugh for your daily opinions while driving down the street than to get out of bed at 9am on a Sunday morning to watch Meet The Press, or Face the Nation, or to actually read the newspaper and make informed decisions on what might be worth believing.

It is much easier to listen to Rush Limbaugh for your daily opinions while driving down the street than to get out of bed at 9am on a Sunday morning to watch Meet The Press, or Face the Nation, or to actually read the newspaper and make informed decisions on what might be worth believing.

We get better news on The Daily Show and Colbert Report than any other place.

The sad part is, those two programs are on Comedy Central. I'm thinking, for the most part, they aren't supposed to be taken seriously.

Unless that was a sarcastic remark....?

The sad part is, those two programs are on Comedy Central. I'm thinking, for the most part, they aren't supposed to be taken seriously.

Unless that was a sarcastic remark....?


No, it is a serious remark...they actually investigate on Comedy Central vs the news organizations that repeat the press releases issued by politicians and corporate giants.

Switzerland has 7.5 Million people and uses direct democracy. There isnt much that can be used on the scale of our government and the size of our population.

Why? We're somehow able to handle 120 million people all voting on the same day and get the results before the end of the day, but we can't handle voting on anything else?

I don't buy that at all.

B. Ignorance. We are a ridiculously ignorant society. Until we become a more aware, less trivial and less pop culture society, the choices don't matter because we are far too easily lied to and manipulated with almost minimal effort and insulting brazenness.

I don't disagree with the money issue.

Regarding B, the two party system is a perfect way to ensure that people remain ignorant. As long as the thing continues to be a political football game, forget about the masses ever thinking for themselves.

Why? We're somehow able to handle 120 million people all voting on the same day and get the results before the end of the day, but we can't handle voting on anything else?

I don't buy that at all.


Haha sanchek, really? youre claiming the US election system is somehow...working to a satisfactory level?

Do you mean the voting system's mechanisms? No vote has ever or probably ever will be completely straight, but it is what it is. Should we abandon all Democracies, worldwide, because voting isn't 100% reliable?

The voting in Iraq when Saddam was in power was 'completely straight'. He enjoyed a majority of 98% of the votes.

Makes you wonder what happened to that 2% that didn't vote for him, eh?

Do you mean the voting system's mechanisms? No vote has ever or probably ever will be completely straight, but it is what it is. Should we abandon all Democracies, worldwide, because voting isn't 100% reliable?

no, what im saying is the voting system in your country is, in many states, ass.

I don't see how that makes it more or less suitable for what the Swiss do. We already use it to determine the leader of the free world.

Improving the system is orthogonal to what we're talking about.

I don't see how that makes it more or less suitable for what the Swiss do. We already use it to determine the leader of the free world.

Improving the system is orthogonal to what we're talking about.

well, sorry for the derailing, but let me answer why the swiss model wouldnt work for you.

it would completely lock up the process, much like it was locked up in california when arnold first took office and insisted on calling a referendum on god damn everything (which is how the swiss system works). edit: also, in my opinion the swiss system relies heavily on an informed population which, quite frankly, doesnt exist in the US.

multiparty systems can lead to extreme parties having 'wavemaster' positions (see: israel, in some cases austria and denmark) and thus great power, but it doesnt have to be this way (see: the rest of europe). i bet i can find more examples of multiparty systems where the extreme factions have no kind of influence at all.

for example in austria, when jorg haiders party got a huge part of the vote 2 elections ago (somewhere along the lines of 25-30%), the other major parties (social democrats and some form of CDU i think) told them to FOAD and formed a big coalition instead.

or it can simply serve to oust said extreme party's officials and voters as batshit, as they arent hiding behind a, for example, republican/democrat brand to spew their bs.

it would completely lock up the process, much like it was locked up in california when arnold first took office and insisted on calling a referendum on god damn everything (which is how the swiss system works). edit: also, in my opinion the swiss system relies heavily on an informed population which, quite frankly, doesnt exist in the US.

That would be the best thing that could possibly happen. Our government was never meant to churn out thousands of pages of new legislation every year.

That would be the best thing that could possibly happen. Our government was never meant to churn out thousands of pages of new legislation every year.

how would a complete lock down of all legislature help in the current situation? if i were a US citizen i would hope they are working their asses off un-bushing everything they can as soon as they can, but to each their own.

We'd never have been Bushified to begin with though, would we?

Any time the entire government leans far enough to either direction that checks and balances stop working, bad things tend to get rammed through. In 4-8 years, we very well may need de-Obamafying.

Problem is, our government never contracts. Each new administration just adds layer after layer of bureaucratic buildup to our country.

Regardless, if you look back, I wasn't even advocating direct Democracy. What I'm pointing out is that we have a lot of room for improvement in our process. Assuming that our status quo (including the two party football game) is the best form of Democracy is silly. We've got this stubborn American Exceptionalism that blinds us from potential improvements though.

This is the fundamental disagreement between us.

I think government can be run better, more efficiently, improved upon, and be a positive force in peoples lives. I see it as a constant work in progress.

By your statement that locking up government is good, you seem to be of the thought that government is bad, and the less it does, the better.

I think mine is the correct view and the one the founding fathers would have subscribed to. They were children of the enlightenment who believed that the human condition could be improved and humanity made more perfect.

I think George Bush showed the inherent flaw in that way of thinking, if you don't believe government can do anything well, you get a government that can't do anything well. Nobody wants an intrusive government, but we all want a government that does what we need it to, and does it expertly.

I can't imagine how Dubya can be used as a case against limited government. He paid lip service to limited government while campaigning, but was the exact opposite when in office.

As for The Founders, they're well on record in favor of limited government. They'd be rolling in their graves (and monuments) if they could see this gigantic bureaucracy we've allowed to take hold.

Throughout our history, this country has thrived most when governed least. Government should be there to serve us, not get in our way.

I can't imagine how Dubya can be used as a case against limited government. He paid lip service to limited government while campaigning, but was the exact opposite when in office.

As has been every republican from Reagan on.




As for The Founders, they're well on record in favor of limited government. They'd be rolling in their graves (and monuments) if they could see this gigantic bureaucracy we've allowed to take hold.



Except of course when those of them became president and the others served in congress.

L2 is dead on with the visionary view.

As has been every republican from Reagan on.

H.W. generally tried to be a true conservative. Certainly more so than Reagan.

I suppose you have to keep in mind that the same basic forces have been behind the GOP for a long time now (see: photo of Rumsfeld and Cheney advising Ford in the oval office).

Except of course when those of them became president and the others served in congress.

L2 is dead on with the visionary view.

Ugh. It's like everything we just learned in the past eight years goes right out the window as soon as the other team has the ball.

Ugh. It's like everything we just learned in the past eight years goes right out the window as soon as the other team has the ball.

But, but the the two party system is teh awesome!!!!

That's why I've always thought a strong third party that has no ties to either of the current ones would best serve the American people. It could take the good ideas that both sides put forth (smaller government, tolerance) and trim out the dumb ass (abortion, taxing out the whazoo)

I personally wouldnt have minded much of what Bush tried or attempted... My beef was always the gross incompetence which hallmarked his administration.

The fucking nightmare administration of the Iraq invasion, Katrina, the handling of intelligence, the destruction of foreign policy, NCLB, total fucking and complete lack of oversight, appointing unqualified cronies to important political offices. It was the worst run government I have ever seen.

I dont get too worked up over its ideological bent, that shit is cyclical. Nothing has changed in my view. I wouldnt let Obama get away with anything I would have hammered Bush for.


Sixee:

Ok.. right there you show why the two party system is superior. The Republican party and Democratic Parties are made up of dozens, if not hundreds of subsets. However, as such, only 1 platform can be put forward and there has to be compromise on everyones part. There is moderation of the views of the subsets as they work in concert.

If we had a multi party system, the same subsets would still exist... and in order to make a ruling coalition, they would still be affiliated. However, they would never have worked together and crafted positions together, they would be more extreme, and the extremes would be more unmitigated as they could hold power even when in the extreme minority.

Israel politics is a prime example. The far right wing is in a position to hold the entire coalition government hostage. There can be no compromise, there can be no movement. They are locked in a perpetual state of inaction.

Good point L2. Makes more sense when you put it that way. I stand down from my 3rd party position.

I personally wouldnt have minded much of what Bush tried or attempted... My beef was always the gross incompetence which hallmarked his administration.

The fucking nightmare administration of the Iraq invasion, Katrina, the handling of intelligence, the destruction of foreign policy, NCLB, total fucking and complete lack of oversight, appointing unqualified cronies to important political offices. It was the worst run government I have ever seen.

I dont get too worked up over its ideological bent, that shit is cyclical. Nothing has changed in my view. I wouldnt let Obama get away with anything I would have hammered Bush for.


Sixee:

Ok.. right there you show why the two party system is superior. The Republican party and Democratic Parties are made up of dozens, if not hundreds of subsets. However, as such, only 1 platform can be put forward and there has to be compromise on everyones part. There is moderation of the views of the subsets as they work in concert.

If we had a multi party system, the same subsets would still exist... and in order to make a ruling coalition, they would still be affiliated. However, they would never have worked together and crafted positions together, they would be more extreme, and the extremes would be more unmitigated as they could hold power even when in the extreme minority.

Israel politics is a prime example. The far right wing is in a position to hold the entire coalition government hostage. There can be no compromise, there can be no movement. They are locked in a perpetual state of inaction.

except that of course in israel, the far right party (likud) almost won the election (lost by one vote?). the far far right batshit party is the one taking hostages. likud wanted a big coalition with kadima, but kadima said no, since likud is opposed to holding any peace talks.

aaaaanyway, /end derail.