http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/obama-oil-drilling-plan-e_n_519553.html

So a lot of democrats are calling this a betrayal...

I don't remember him coming out AGAINST offshore drilling. I remember him saying it wasn't enough of an impact to be the sole plan of Mccain's to fix the oil prices issue.

Is this really a big deal?

No, this is something that should have been done 10-15 years ago so we'd be reaping the benefits now.

We need to get off the middle eastern oil teat, but sitting around dreaming about green technology doesn't do it. We need our own domestic sources, and our own research done then we can give them a big fuck you and they can go back to cutting each others heads off while we continue not caring.

The last election was a monument to idiocy. The talking heads acted like there were only two choices - drill, or find alternate sources of energy. We're stupid not to use the resource we have (responsibly), but equally stupid to think a few new drillings will actually affect current prices or our long term ability to maintain our current levels of waste.

Look where the leases are - off the coast of the poorest areas of Virginia. No surprises there. If it was off the coast of the Hamptons, then we'd see outrage.

I don't care unless they export it rather than keep it for us. This is supposed to be like 50miles off the coast too right? Far enough that you can't see it and still enjoy the 'rita on the sand.

Doesn't matter either way (http://blog.prospect.org/blog/ezraklein/assets_c/2008/09/oilconsumption-thumb-485x590.jpg). That he'd bother implies a troubling bit of desperation.

Helps even less without more refineries.

The numbers are all out there, and yes im too lazy to find them. Our domestic production is a single digit fraction of our total consumption. Sure drill baby drill, so we can domestically produce 12 % of consumption instead of 9%. We had some posts here that talked about how the oil from ANWR would go straight to China because of the pipeline structures and whatnot.

It's not a big deal, it's placating some business interests.

Well, the most recent figures I have seen (which were yesterday on CNN) shoot down Phelonius' and Sanchek's figures.

ww.cnn.com/2010/US/04/01/foreign.oil.dependence/index.html?iref=allsearch

According to the link, the US produces 43% of the oil it consumes and imports 57%, which is a far cry from Phelonius' made up statistic and is slightly higher than the link Sanchek posted.

The article I link states that the US will reduce the use of imports to 40% of domestic oil consumption by 2030 because of increased drilling, biofuels, and coal to liquid production(according to the Energy Information Administration).

How many people here knew that the US already produces 10% of the world's crude oil production currently? Granted we use 23% of the world's oil production, but I was surprised that we still supply 10% of global crude.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/4atab.pdf

2009: domestic production - 5.32 million barrels / day
2009: total consumption - 18.69 million barrels / day

5.32 / 18.69 = 28.5%

Expect some serious democratic agenda amendments added on to any "drilling" bill. How badly do the drillers want to drill? enough to legitimize gays in the military? heh.

Just three weeks later on Earth Day a hundred square foot patch of the gulf of mexico is covered in oil, a mere 15 miles (and closing) from the Mississippi River delta and mainland
Louisianna. They say its dumping 5000 barrels of oil a day into the ocean. I can't help but wonder if adding new leases isn't the right answer.

The shrimpers are starting the season early to try to salvage what they can from what is feared to be a ruined season. They estimate several years possibly to regain a decent shrimp and oyster crop if the oil continues flowing.

This is going to dig into the pockets of BP very deep. Sure they say they will pay for the clean up, but the US will pay for it with their environment, and you know damn well AT THE PUMP as well. Wonder what Europe would do if an American oil well blew up and then spewed oil all over its beaches.

Well, I wouldn't blame the British government if that is what you are getting at, they may be the UK's largest company yet they aren't owned or run by the government. In fact wasn't it Haliburton who probably caused the fire in the first place? Kinda surprising to hear that name associated with this, but they seem to only associate themselves with huge fuck ups so I shouldn't have been. Admittedly, its a bit strange we haven't heard from the British government in form of sympathy or a pledge of support.

Also Castrol, Amoco and Arco are owned by BP, so avoid those product lines too!

Why boycott BP companies? So far, it doesn't seem to be due to any malice or even gross negligence on their part, and they're taking responsibility to make sure it gets cleaned up. What more do you want?

Have you looked at their environmental record? One major environmental disaster a year, they are hands down the worst oil company in regards to protecting the environment. That, added to them bragging about 100% profit increase last year yet not installing remote controlled methods of capping a well should an incident like this happen. They could afford to take care of these things before the fact, they just don't give a fuck and brag about it. The reality is they won't ever pay for all of the damage they've done, but we the taxpayers will, nevermind the citizens of the gulf states who will lose billions in agriculture, fishing, and tourism (plus health risks and simply having their backyard fucked up royally). They need to learn that doing stuff just to code instead of what is necessary to prevent an incident like this isn't acceptable - and the only thing that matters to them is profits.

There are many other companies far more deserving of my hard earned money, particularly those that don't shit all over my beaches and kill off all of my seafood.

I read that it did have a remote plug installed, but it malfunctioned.

Boycotting BP misunderstands the entire situation. Our demand for oil created the industry and risks associated with it. Our continued demand for a lifestyle predicated on massive quantities of oil is ultimately as responsible for this mess as any one company.

People want to eat the steak, but are indignant when they see the slaughterhouse.

Frankly I think it is more like you are misunderstanding the cituation. Sure, moving away from oil is ideal for tomorrow ... but not practical today. Hess and Marathon have excellent spill records and are a far better place for anyone's dollars today while we work towards moving to an all energy powered fleet. I am sorry you feel doing nothing is better than doing something positive.

Well I know for a fact US owned companies do a decent amount of destroying things world wide, copper mines in Indonesia being one that comes to mind.

Frankly I think it is more like you are misunderstanding the cituation. Sure, moving away from oil is ideal for tomorrow ... but not practical today. Hess and Marathon have excellent spill records and are a far better place for anyone's dollars today while we work towards moving to an all energy powered fleet. I am sorry you feel doing nothing is better than doing something positive.

The idea of supporting the underdogs is a lot like the movement to buy local/organic food. It sounds nice, but it's pointless on an aggregate level; ADM isn't going anywhere just because I joined the CSA down the street (but I did anyway). The "good" sources can't come anywhere near to the levels of production necessary to meet demand.

Hess would need to grow its production by ~5,000% overnight (and sell every drop of that to us) in order to meet our current demand. That's not going to happen. If it did, they would probably experience the exact same volume-related accidents that the other large producers do.

Like you said, that's not practical for today.

It's not just about the fuel in your car anyway. IIRC, that's not even the majority of our oil usage. Are you also going to stop using plastics, food grown with petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides, anything shipped via truck, and stop flying (just to name a few things)? If not, you'd still supporting BP anyway.

A cloud of smug has been spotted over Kelraz's locale and looking to join up with the San Fran cloud of smug!!

how's that for a "cituation"??

Back to the offshore drilling, the BP incident was damn bad timing following on the heels of Obama publically backing offshore drilling.

I think it was the Kennedy's sabotaging the remote plug!! They have the wind farm fiasco to divert their actions!!

The idea of supporting the underdogs is a lot like the movement to buy local/organic food. It sounds nice, but it's pointless on an aggregate level; ADM isn't going anywhere just because I joined the CSA down the street (but I did anyway). The "good" sources can't come anywhere near to the levels of production necessary to meet demand.

Hess would need to grow its production by ~5,000% overnight (and sell every drop of that to us) in order to meet our current demand. That's not going to happen. If it did, they would probably experience the exact same volume-related accidents that the other large producers do.

Like you said, that's not practical for today.

It's not just about the fuel in your car anyway. IIRC, that's not even the majority of our oil usage. Are you also going to stop using plastics, food grown with petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides, anything shipped via truck, and stop flying (just to name a few things)? If not, you'd still supporting BP anyway.

Then why did you join the local CSA (I assume its a local farm type thing)? Its the exact same as *trying* to spend our money on who we deem the best custodians of our well being in the long run. Its the same as "Buy American". If no one tries, there is no incentive at all for the companies to even try.

When we get to the point where we don't need oil, it'll be the oil companies re-branded and re-purposed that take us there, much like how the internet companies of today are the phone companies of yesterday (slowly evolved with name changes, corporate buy outs, etc. but you get the point).

We joined the CSA for the food, not out of the delusion that it has any impact on Monsanto or ADM.

You need to look up the definition of delusion. If they make $5 less profit from me, its still $5 less. Sure, statistically its a negligible amount - but that doesn't mean they are making the same profits regardless. Since we're talking environmental, lets go to recycling or littering. Sure, you can argue that its a waste of time because no one else is going to do it and it doesn't have an impact on the environment at large since corporations are going to pollute anyway - and you'd probably be right. It doesn't mean that it isn't the right thing to do.

I feel like you are arguing just for arguments sake and are too proud to just back down and say "yeah, its a shitty company and it'd be better to support someone else". The illogical side is that you feel one person buying a different product is stupid and delusional, yet you posted a whole "Buy American" thread what ... 2, 3 months ago? But hey, if you believe that spilling 70,000 barrels of oil into the Gulf of Mexico while spending the better part of the last 4 years lobbying against tighter safety measures (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/bp-fought-safety-measures-deepwater-oil-rigs/story?id=10521078) while shutting down their alternative energy headquarters (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jun/28/bp-alternative-energy) and cutting their renewable energy budget (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/feb/21/bp.oil) AND saying publicly they will pay for the entire disaster but already preparing an army of lawyers to screw every gulf fisherman they can (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100503/ts_ynews/ynews_ts1904) is a good thing, and they deserve your money - then hey, go ahead and buy their product. But I'm going to exercise the only options I have left: donating money and professional time to the Sierra Club and making my purchases elsewhere.

If nothing else, I'll at least counter your purchases out.

It doesn't work that way no matter how much you wish it did. Your withholding $5 from a BP station doesn't necessarily translate to even a penny in lost revenues for BP.

With limited supply and inelastic demand, the only way you'll have an iota of impact on BP and its ilk is to alter your demand curve for petroleum products.

Carry on tilting at those straw-mills though!

If your plan to deprive highly invested members of governmental-industrial complexes of revenue that doesn't involve sustained behaviors and expectations of results in twenty to thirty years, you can rest assured you aren't doing a damn thing. There is so much behind the scenes oil trading and speculation going on that it's functionally impossible to know who you're supporting with any given purchase decision.

It might be a good idea and make you feel better, but BP isn't going to care.

Kelraz, you just had your bubble so thoroughly burst its beyond sad. From the usual suspects no doubt. Sanchek even went as far to twist the usual knife.

They are probably right though. The only way to rest assured that you are not providing income for Big Oil is to walk or ride your bicycle. Even that won't stop them. For every Westerner who parks his or her car for the week to save fuel, there are 20 Asians who buy their first car. It would be better for your piece of mind to stop buying their product to help your own bottomline and perhaps cut back on local air pollution as opposed to putting the screws on evil corps like BP.

The problem is that while they certainly think they are correct, they aren't 100% on the money. BP spent $150 million in 2005 to convince the world they were the greenest oil company. If it didn't matter if anyone bought gas from a BP gas station or not, they certainly wouldn't have done that. The stock market also echos my sentiments too, with their company losing 15% of its value in the week since the spill (dramatically greater than the worst case expected costs of cleanup). It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that if different oil companies make dramatically different levels of profit over the same time, it has to be related to either their sales or alien intervention.

And Lummus, I hope you are right. I bet the oil spill will encourage more people to opt for the bike or light rail over the car, which would certainly be better for everyone in the long run. It also prompted me and my regular freelancers to donate about $10k in services from my company to the local Sierra Club which certainly will probably have a much greater impact, though the peace of mind part is comforting at least.

Unless they've re-parented them again, BP gas stations in the US are owned by Royal Dutch Shell, although BP still owns Arco. My point is not that you can't make a difference, it's that even a mass boycott of one particular retail front does next to nothing to the parent companies, most importantly because they exert huge influence over numerous governments. It's like people talking about secession -- sure I can see dissolving these United States as a potentially good civil direction if you present the right argument, but it's never going to happen until there is a massive realignment of the plutocracy's interests.

It hurts to know you're insignificant and some asshole bankers are the idiot aristocracy. Buying coal-powered light rail energy from one of them instead of gasoline from another isn't changing the game in your favor though.

It hurts to know you're insignificant and some asshole bankers are the idiot aristocracy. Buying coal-powered light rail energy from one of them instead of gasoline from another isn't changing the game in your favor though.

It does. But what can you do? Positive change only happens when people realize that the best place to make an impact is on bettering their own lives and immediate surroundings as opposed to conciously pursuing trying to fuck over some juggernaught. Its makes more sense to drive less from the stand point of not liking being stuck in traffic and having the money you didn't spend on gas be in your wallet. On the long run we can put a minor dent in the aristocratic assholes that run the show but it can only be done if the motivation is self centered. Crusades against "The Man" or the big nameless faceless corps or the ubiquitous, omnipotent "them" ultimately fail because you can lose lots of personal ground while not having any effect on damaging your titanic opponent.

The especially misguided thing about boycotting gas stations is almost all of the pain you inflict is on employees/owners/distribution/etc in your community. None of which hurts BP or transfers their oil leases to a "better" company.

BP's stock is a bargain right now. It may even go down further while the news sensationalizes things, but it will certainly rebound.

No one buys gas out of some need to contribute to the betterment of gas station owners/employees etc. I as a consumer could not give less of a shit about it. I am not going to go out of my way to spite them, but I am going to look after my own bottomline first. Consumers purchase fuel because they have to and if there was a way to not have to buy the stuff, most people would be in agreement that they would prefer not to. Many could find a sound arguement that hydrocarbons are far too precious just to be burned up as a fuel. Alas, we made our automobile cententic cultural bed and have to continue to lay in it. That same "altruistic" arguement can also be applied that its our civic duty to run up gobs of debt by purchasing junk we really do not need in order to support our economy. If I don't buy an I Phone and 4G service I am going to put people out of work. Oh Noz.

Besides, gas stations don't make their money off the gas. They make it off selling impulse items, beer, smokes, coffee, fake rubber dog vommit, puffy fronted trucker hats, snacks etc. The gas is just the bait to get people in the door. Just like movie theaters lose money on the films they show but rake in the dough on the concessions. If gas station owners really want to cry poorhouse they can always take the credit card swipes off the gas pumps and force me to have to come in the store where I can be seduced by the alure of fake rubber dog vommit.

As for the stock thing, if you are ok with making money off misfortune than its your conscience. Just be sure to sell it before the litigation begins. If anything comes of it, hopefully the rigside safety devices that were optional that could have prevented the accident or at least mitigated the aftermath will become mandetory. In that regard, BP is indeed not culpable. US law did not require them so they were not installed.

I am not going to go out of my way to spite them

However, Kelraz says he intends to. That's the point, not any of the further stuff you inferred. The absence of a boycott doesn't have to imply its diametric opposite.

The only way to make money from misfortune on BP stock would be to buy options. Buying the stock and holding it long would actually be betting on a better-case outcome.

How about the people paid to try to control the oil slick? They're making money from misfortune, right? Slippery slope you're on there.

Not to spite, rather to support those doing the right thing over those doing the wrong. I can't really talk about this publicly anymore, however, so don't expect any replies for a week or two on this subject.

Well, no, that's not what you've been saying at all. You've been very clear about your driving motive being to take your $5 away from BP.

It's really a shame to see your enthusiasm wasted on something so futile, when there are things you could do to actually have a lasting impact. They just don't give you the retaliatory satisfaction of (pretend) sticking it to The Man in the short-term.

Well, no, that's not what you've been saying at all. You've been very clear about your driving motive being to take your $5 away from BP.

It's really a shame to see your enthusiasm wasted on something so futile, when there are things you could do to actually have a lasting impact. They just don't give you the retaliatory satisfaction of (pretend) sticking it to The Man in the short-term.

Good ole Sanchek. Never misses an opportunity to be a douchebag.

Lets take the populist approach shall we? People drive by a BP gas station and you know what they see? They don't see a business that generates jobs, tax revenue and other such mundane trivialities. They don't even see a British Oil company logo on a piece of property owned by a Dutch Oil company.

What they see is the public face of the responsible organization who just had a rather major accident that killed 11 people and devastated whole entire fishing industries as well as coated a sizable portion of a major body of water with a hazardous, toxic mess. An organization that seems a rather baize about the whole ordeal.

If Kelraz doesn't want to buy their product he is well within his rights as a consumer to go to their competitors. If the BP station loses some money and has to lay off some cashiers or whatever then that is just the breaks. Shit happens. Life isn't fair. Ask the families of the dead or go down to the docks where the shrimp fleets tie up and they might also say the same. The thing is that people will always need gas. The oil industry isn't going away until the oil does and the cashier can get another job somewhere else. The shrimping industry is looking at a solid 10-20 year hit and the dead are never coming back.

Well, no, that's not what you've been saying at all. You've been very clear about your driving motive being to take your $5 away from BP.

It's really a shame to see your enthusiasm wasted on something so futile, when there are things you could do to actually have a lasting impact. They just don't give you the retaliatory satisfaction of (pretend) sticking it to The Man in the short-term.

Well thank God I don't need your seal of approval. I am fairly confident that over the last 6 years me and my company have made a far greater impact in regards to the environment than many can claim in their lifetime.

Well thank God I don't need your seal of approval. I am fairly confident that over the last 6 years me and my company have made a far greater impact in regards to the environment than many can claim in their lifetime.

You're posing awfully hard for someone that claims not to care.

Like I already said, carry on tilting at those windmills. Just don't be surprised when BP is not significantly impacted in the long-run, if at all.

Good ole Sanchek. Never misses an opportunity to be a douchebag.

Lets take the populist approach shall we? People drive by a BP gas station and you know what they see? They don't see a business that generates jobs, tax revenue and other such mundane trivialities. They don't even see a British Oil company logo on a piece of property owned by a Dutch Oil company.

What they see is the public face of the responsible organization who just had a rather major accident that killed 11 people and devastated whole entire fishing industries as well as coated a sizable portion of a major body of water with a hazardous, toxic mess. An organization that seems a rather baize about the whole ordeal.

If Kelraz doesn't want to buy their product he is well within his rights as a consumer to go to their competitors. If the BP station loses some money and has to lay off some cashiers or whatever then that is just the breaks. Shit happens. Life isn't fair. Ask the families of the dead or go down to the docks where the shrimp fleets tie up and they might also say the same. The thing is that people will always need gas. The oil industry isn't going away until the oil does and the cashier can get another job somewhere else. The shrimping industry is looking at a solid 10-20 year hit and the dead are never coming back.

Some of those words don't mean what you think they do.

Of course Kelraz is entitled to be a moron if he wants. It's a free country. If he doesn't want to be called out for it, he shouldn't announce that he's doing so.

If you meant to say BP's been blase about the ordeal, that simply isn't correct. I can understand BP angst over their bad record*, but they've actually responded to this incident about as well as you could possibly expect.

It's all just so superficial and silly to boycott a particular gas station over this. If you want to boycott the conditions that made this happen and prevent it in the future, the only effective option is to boycott industrialized society as we know it.

* This is a symptom of volume as much as anything. If one of these "good" companies were to grow to BP's size, they'd almost certainly end up with these fiascoes too. Volume, price, safety - you can have two of them. Out of necessity, we've consistently chosen price and volume. Our way of life collapses without that.

You're posing awfully hard for someone that claims not to care.

Like I already said, carry on tilting at those windmills. Just don't be surprised when BP is not significantly impacted in the long-run, if at all.

Yah no shit, Sherlock.

I don't get your angle. Either you are quietly rooting for the big irresponsible oil outfit or you have totally given up in defeat that anything can change or that anyone can have any kind of an ideal. That world has gone to shit and anyone who thinks otherwise is either niave, a fool or some combo of all of the above. That its all just a waste of time. To your credit and Kelraz's, BOTH of you are right. And wrong. Its all subject to opinion, right? Kelraz is welcome to his choice when he selects a place to fuel or..or not fuel up. He is a consumer and he does what he feels is right for his conscience and budget. Sanchek, you seem all so willing to attack him because he doesn't want to does business with BP. Well, why the fuck should he choose BP over some other fuel station? Why stick up for BP? Even if they did nothing wrong, what good have they done? You seem more hell bent on pissing off Kelraz and making yourself look all the more like the asshole that you are as opposed to presenting some compelling arguement in support of BP other than that they are too big to fail. So what if it doesn't make a hill of difference to BP's bottom line in your opinion. If there are a million Kelraz's who all tell BP to go suck it than yah... they might notice a difference. Telling the oil outfits to go to hell is a much better long term solution for us economically as well as a species.

Again..we buy fuel because the perception of our lifestyle is that success is measured on living outside the city and driving to work etc. That having a car and burning lots of fuel is status. Never mind that its not sustainable and pollutes but all that good pollution byproduct is a result of a healthy economy that we need to maintain. That attitude needs to change...and not be condoned. So be mindful of that. Some windmills need to be tilted or you just won't get any change for the better.

Yah no shit, Sherlock.

I don't get your angle. Either you are quietly rooting for the big irresponsible oil outfit or you have totally given up in defeat that anything can change or that anyone can have any kind of an ideal. That world has gone to shit and anyone who thinks otherwise is either niave, a fool or some combo of all of the above. That its all just a waste of time. To your credit and Kelraz's, BOTH of you are right. And wrong. Its all subject to opinion, right? Kelraz is welcome to his choice when he selects a place to fuel or..or not fuel up. He is a consumer and he does what he feels is right for his conscience and budget. Sanchek, you seem all so willing to attack him because he doesn't want to does business with BP. Well, why the fuck should he choose BP over some other fuel station? Why stick up for BP? Even if they did nothing wrong, what good have they done? You seem more hell bent on pissing off Kelraz and making yourself look all the more like the asshole that you are as opposed to presenting some compelling arguement in support of BP other than that they are too big to fail. So what if it doesn't make a hill of difference to BP's bottom line in your opinion. If there are a million Kelraz's who all tell BP to go suck it than yah... they might notice a difference. Telling the oil outfits to go to hell is a much better long term solution for us economically as well as a species.

Again..we buy fuel because the perception of our lifestyle is that success is measured on living outside the city and driving to work etc. That having a car and burning lots of fuel is status. Never mind that its not sustainable and pollutes but all that good pollution byproduct is a result of a healthy economy that we need to maintain. That attitude needs to change...and not be condoned. So be mindful of that. Some windmills need to be tilled or you just won't get any change for the better.

Show me where I said we should support BP.

You guys both seem unable to think in terms of anything but polar opposites here. Like I said before, realizing the futility of boycotting a gas station doesn't imply that we can't make a difference.

I'd tell you that trying to take on the United States Army is a stupid idea too, but that doesn't mean I think we can't change the country through more rational means.

Sanchek, if Kelraz feels that his vote for a particular cause is best cast at the cash register than more power to him. He is exercising one of the few rights we as consumers have, otherwise there is little recourse when it comes to going against large companies. You are calling him out for that. Calling him a moron. Presenting a very defeatist arguement. Saying he is wasting energy. I don't think there is much energy wasted in snubbing Company A in favor of Company B, is there?

There are plenty of arguements as to why he should not single out BP. Just as many as to perhaps instead ride a bike or walk or take the Metro or just plain up go to Chevron instead. He does, however, have the court of popular opinion on his side. He also has the benifit of a growing backlash against Big Oil in general. We all know that generally speaking that fossil fuels are harmful. That its a teet we need to ween ourselves from in order to assure we have a stable society for our kids. These accidents will continue. There is no way to make oil not be what it is. From the Exxon Valdez to the Kuwaiti oil fields in Gulf War I to what we have today. Oil tankers come in full of our society's drug and leave full of money to enrichen someone else. Some of them actually want to kill us. Fundementally the whole system sucks and people need to stop rolling over and taking it and if a boycott is all a consumer can do, than that is fine. Its not much more than a moral victory but its something. Every little bit counts.

As we've already covered exhaustively, boycotting a BP station likely has no impact on BP's profits. So yeah, it certainly is wasting energy.

If he's not fundamentally cutting back on his demand for petroleum (as you seem to understand), he's spinning his wheels. It may feel satisfying to dole out some punitive revenge on that BP cashier or truck driver, but it's about the most impotent move to be made.

You have some better idea? We might even be on the same page to a degree but I am still seeing some flaws in the logic.

Chosing to not buy gas at all, from ANY OIL COMPANY is just as big a slight to the truck driver and cashier as going to some other station is it not? That is if I am following your logic here. That every mile I chose to ride on my bicycle as opposed to my car or every minute I decide to shave off my commute time by moving closer to work is taking food out of a gas station owners/employee child's mouth. How dare I be so selfish to want to get some exercise on my bicycle for my own health as well as the peace of mind I get by have a few extra twenty notes in my wallet as opposed to going in the gas tank.

We can run the planet into the ground all day long under the noble guise that all our bad habits keep people employed and the economy humming. That as long as we keep our little cogs meshed in the great machine than everything will be fine.

Hopefully you have a good rebuttle, Sanchek. Investing in alternate energy and conservation can put just as many gas station cashiers and truck drivers on the dole as Kelraz's voting with his wallet.

Kelraz isn't talking about not buying gas from ANY OIL COMPANY. He's just talking about boycotting BP gas (which is far from even boycotting BP).

I've never said that we should go out of our way to support or subsidize BP employees (for that matter, I haven't bought BP branded gas myself in years, for unrelated reasons).

What I have said is that it's stupid to punish people in your local community in a futile attempt to spite the company whose name is on the sign.

Those two opinions are not mutually inclusive.

Using a bike instead of a car is great. That actually makes a difference, as opposed to bluster about a boycott while still providing the same demand curve to the oil industry.

It's suicide to bike on the roads around here, but I walk as many places as I can myself. I'm about a mile from the restaurants and bars in downtown Roswell, which is nice. Between that and working mostly from home, I rarely drive more than 3,000 miles a year.

That's where it's at: permanently alter your demand for the stuff. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to limit consumption of the majority of petroleum products today. It's even less feasible to limit those purchases to derivatives of a certain company's oil.

Your debate is moot anyway. BP is going to be nationalized and liquidated because the cost of this fiasco will cost the total value of BP's assets.

That seems unlikely. What makes you say that? Who do you think will try to nationalize BP, the US or UK?

BP = British Petroleum so guessing the UK

Sure BP is headquartered in the UK, but why would the UK nationalize BP over a spill here? There aren't many less likely scenarios, IMO.

On the other hand, we probably could nationalize any operations in our waters, regardless of the companies operating them. That would probably be political suicide though, since the Obama administration fast-tracked BP's application to skip a full environmental impact study for the very rig that sank.

Just trying to understand where he's coming from.

It was the story du jour on some sites last week. I thought it was more mainstream than it really was. That aside, this current fix has to work or else. If they go the three month fix route, BP is toast.

I just don't see it.

There isn't a "current fix". They've got several things in the works. I read they're spending 7 million dollars a day developing different ideas, not just the dome.

The Valdez cost Exxon something like 7.5 billion over the course of 15 years, 5 billion of which was a government fine, and the Valdez was quite a bit larger a spill than this incident is so far. This mess has to leak for another 50 days before it catches up with the Valdez spill in terms of quantity. Even weighing in the potential for a much larger fallout in the gulf area, we're talking about a company that brings in hundreds of billions of dollars a year. They aren't going to fail over this any more than Exxon failed over the Valdez.

Did any of these stories you read have actual numbers or some sort of reasoning behind their claims? I'm still interested, if you're basing this on anything of substance.

Yeah if Exxon can survive that one, BP will come out alright here. I mean hell you can't get much more negligent than Exxon was and they managed to survive. Though those cocksuckers are still trying to fight paying the people they owe from the law suits IIRC.

Yeah if Exxon can survive that one, BP will come out alright here. I mean hell you can't get much more negligent than Exxon was and they managed to survive. Though those cocksuckers are still trying to fight paying the people they owe from the law suits IIRC.


Pretty sure I have heard this as well. And these BP, and related, execs were setting the stage for the same thing in the hearings the other day, saying they would provide compensation for those with "substantiated" claims. So, hopefully those shrimpers and fishermen and oyster farmers and any other potentially affected folks have held on to their receipts and tax returns and such from the last several years for comparison purposes.

Here's today's MODIS and NASA images of the spill, which, btw, exceeded the volume of the Valdez spill on May 1st, according to conservative legitimate scientific estimates; it is now the size of the state of Maryland and a portion of it is now getting sucked into the Gulf Stream loop current. Ironically, BP's decision to use dispersants underwater in order to minimize surface spreading likely exacerbated this as the Loop current is strongest ~ 500m (1/3 mile) under the surface.

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=1483
http://blog.skytruth.org/
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/44000/44006/gulf_tmo_2010137_lrg.jpg

Dr. Masters is considered a conservative btw (he claims the jury is still out on anthropogenic global warming for example), but it's pretty difficult to deny that oil ejection into the ocean is happening at a rate considerably exceeding BP's estimates.

Why President Obama hasn't declared a state of emergency so that NOAA and associated agencies can get some actual scientists down there to at least accurately assess the situation (instead, BP continues to flail around, their latest pipe insertion by their own estimates only taking up 4% of the spill rate) is a mystery to me. How can we *not* assert sovereignty given the gravity of the situation? We declare states of emergency for thunderstorms and tornadoes, for god's sake...

Instead, we have BP buying up all the hotel rooms on the Gulf coast (which according to some of the owner/managers, then sit empty, but it minimizes the number of volunteers and others who might come snooping around as they can't find lodging - I had a link for this I'll dig up), forcing nondisclosure agreements on all of the fishermen and other volunteers, and otherwise hindering the ability both of the government and residents to meaningfully deal with the situation.

Regards,
Nydia

P.S. I'm well aware of the difficulties of working a mile under water and that the relief well drilling will take months, etc; but the lack of information being provided to the government on this issue (and its apparent reluctance to take a firm hand with regard to what is going on on the ground) has ecological consequences, as hard as it may be to believe, independent of dollar values and who ultimately pays.

The tube solution was/is only taking up a small fraction of the leak initially because they're being careful not to overdo it, pull water into the tube, and end up with hydrates clogging the tube again. As hard as it was to get the tube in place, it makes sense that they don't want to clog it and have to start over.

They've been/are ramping up the suction until they can find the optimal level, which will hopefully mitigate most of that particular leak.

The big plumes underwater are scary though.

http://entertainment.yahoo.ca/s/reuters/100518/us/usreport_us_oil_rig_leak_137

Looks like it'll make its way up the gulf stream and onto the East Coast beaches.

http://entertainment.yahoo.ca/s/reuters/100518/us/usreport_us_oil_rig_leak_137

Looks like it'll make its way up the gulf stream and onto the East Coast beaches.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/19/gulf.oil.spill.main/index.html?hpt=T1

Seems like a lot of people are actually hoping for the worst possible outcome. Half the prognosticating I'm seeing reminds me of the 2012 nuts.

The latest video released by BP (on Tuesday, in response to Congressional demand), showing the tube inserted, but not operational:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/18/national/main6496610.shtml?tag=cbsContent;cbsCarousel

CBS is also claiming that a BP-contractor driven boat with two Coast Guard officers aboard threatened them with arrest and prevented them from landing on an oil-soaked Louisiana beach today:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/18/national/main6496846.shtml

It is impossible to obtain meaningful estimates of just how badly the wildlife have been affected thus far, but it is confirmed that the count of dead Ridley's sea turtles (an endangered species which breeds only on the Gulf coast, and this is egg-laying season) since April 30 is at 156 and rising:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/19/science/earth/19turtle.html

Far more serious in terms of large scale impact to the area is the plummeting oxygen levels in the water column in the spill area; while the Gulf typically has a hypoxic zone around the Mississippi delta in the summer due to eutrophication from agricultural and waste runoff, this will affect the food chain over a much larger area and in deeper water where the margins of life are much smaller to begin with.

I wouldn't say that people are *hoping* for the worst possible outcome, but given the size of the disaster unrolling in slow motion before us and the generation-long exposure Americans have to simply being lied to outright by corporate entities combined with ineffectual-by-design response by government, coupled with the amount we simply don't know about this spill, there's a lot of appropriate concern out there.

What do you expect from these big Corporations. They cant regulate themselves, there totally untrustworthy. All they care about is there god Profit, they will screw anyone or anything to make a buck, if they can get away with it.
The government is in there pocket, those whores will bend over and allow these corporations to have there way, for money to keep them in power.

75 million dollar cap for damages, now thats laughable, for a corporation that makes billions and billions a year. If congress doesnt up that cap to cover all the costs and clean up, then its all but a slap in the face or a joke to everyone and everything effected by this. Hell, those top folks in BP, halliburton and Transocean should be rounded up and jailed for this. There lucky there not in China, they would be executed for incompetence.

I bet you'd see a lot more public support for capital punishment if it was attached to white collar crime.

So.

BP is going to possibly walk off with a peepee slap from this. Our government is not going to be able to do much or seems obligated to be on the sidelines for all of this.

Given how much the public has had to swallow the past 10 years from the government and big business, one has to wonder when the breaking point is going to be and what will result when we get there?

Is it going to be civil war, or can we just tighten our belts some more and curb the demand for the crap that is killing our world and robbing our future. Heh. The only way to fuck big business and the government is to consume less. Buying less of the crap big corporate peddles results in less tax revenue for the government. The downturn was proof positive.

Public executions would help too. Or maybe if these dickless fucks had a bit of honor and commited seppekku when they knew they screwed up in such a manner as to destroy whole eco-systems and industies and that their removal from the species would be warranted.

Long as most of us have our cable TV, football leagues, A/C, and food on the table (all made possible in part by oil), I wouldn't expect much to change.

Our attention span < meaningful change.

http://ayonae.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=445&d=1274333805

More on those dispersants used by BP today, including a warning from the EPA that BP has 24 hours to change to a less toxic formula, and that the predictable result, namely huge plumes of 'dispersed' oil entering benthic currents, is being observed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/science/earth/21disperse.html?ref=us

With regard to the CNN headline page, I think there's an appropriate question that needs to be asked about *why* those headlines look as they do. Is that content/format entirely ratings driven, or is it not fair to say that our now overwhelmingly corporate-owned media also plays an active hand in trying to divert potentially troublesome attention so that it does not go beyond the shock and awe stage and stir up potential demands that something actually be questioned, investigated, or (perish the thought!) changed at a fundamental level?

And just when you humanity's capacity for acting like scum couldn't settle any lower:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/may/20/survivor-deepwater-horizon-gulf-oil-explosion

Specifically, towards the bottom, the accounting by survivors of the oil rig explosion, who, mind you, had just survived said explosion and been forced to dive for their lives from a burning oil rig into the ocean, were deliberately kept isolated and awake for over 40 hours by the Transocean officials responsible for their rescue and told they would not be released until they signed release of liability statements and that they had not witnessed the explosion...

So.

BP is going to possibly walk off with a peepee slap from this. Our government is not going to be able to do much or seems obligated to be on the sidelines for all of this.

Given how much the public has had to swallow the past 10 years from the government and big business, one has to wonder when the breaking point is going to be and what will result when we get there?

Is it going to be civil war, or can we just tighten our belts some more and curb the demand for the crap that is killing our world and robbing our future. Heh. The only way to fuck big business and the government is to consume less. Buying less of the crap big corporate peddles results in less tax revenue for the government. The downturn was proof positive.

Public executions would help too. Or maybe if these dickless fucks had a bit of honor and commited seppekku when they knew they screwed up in such a manner as to destroy whole eco-systems and industies and that their removal from the species would be warranted.

I appreciate your strong sentiment, LummusL, but isn't that exactly the same attitude that caused the French Revolution (guillotine), Soviet/Russian Revolution, and the Cultural Revolution ("black"/rich families that didn't leave for Taiwan were marked for execution)?

Rybit, the fact that you are quoting past examples implies that perhaps this doesn't need to be history repeating itself. Sure, public executions are extreme and wouldn't happen. I don't see myself sitting down and writing some communist manifesto either. The fact of the matter is though that our government and big business need to recenter their moral compasses a bit and remind themselves that they as entities are beholden to the best interests of the public that they serve. If not, at the very least people will take their business elsewhere if its within their means or vote them out of office. If that doesn't work than you end up with Bangkok. People have limits as a whole and honestly no one knows where they lie within our country.

What isn't happening is any real acknowledgment of remorse. BP seems to be trying real hard to pour water on the grease fire while trying to publicly portray itself as being almost heroic in its efforts. If BP was a Japanese firm, you can bet a few people would have committed suicide or at least stepped down because under their watch something horrible went wrong. The lack of responsibility and honor as a whole from Wall Street firms and now BP goes far to further demonize large enterprises who seem to be concerned with nothing more but making a buck at the expense of the broad base of citizens.

Rybit you reap the benefits of the corporate world so perhaps you might be the best place to start in correcting some of this mess if only by putting some honorable practices in business. If implying that killing the rich people might be a bad solution (since you would probably die) then maybe there might be a need to reflect as to why those tragic events in history happened. If it was 5-10% of the population shitting all over the other 90-95%, than now is probably a good time to peacefully reflect on how our elite members of business and government can strive to do things in a less exploitative manner.

I'm just glad to know Obama has been on top of this since day one... or it would be bad.

Im just waiting with bated breath to hear Pat Robertson tell us why all the red states of the gulf are being punished with oil on their shores and in their hurricanes...

Just curious has anyone seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHmhxpQEGPo

It amazes me.

Fil:

If that's a Youtube file than I can't watch it. If its about Haley Barbour, than yah, amazing.

That guy has to be a contentor for "Dumbass of the Year".

The power at the BP near my house was off last night and there was a fire engine in the parking lot. As I got closer, I saw a stream of something running from the pumps, down the driveway, into the gutter. I rolled the window down to smell, and sure enough: it was gas.

I got this crappy iPhone photo of it. That dark patch to the right of the engine was a stream of flowing gas.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/360937/resized.jpg

They're spilling that shit everywhere. Whoops.

Also, CNN agrees with Malse and I about the misguided-ness of boycotting stations: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/12/bp.protest.atlanta/index.html

Also, CNN agrees with Malse and I about the misguided-ness of boycotting stations: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/12/bp.protest.atlanta/index.html

Again its coming down to reading comprehension skills. I'm honestly wondering who bought Sanchek's account on ebay or something. It isn't CNN agreeing with you, its some bozo from the National Association of Convenience Stores that says boycotting is misguided, and surprise surprise ... he's a lobbyist FOR those gas stations and convenience stores. You ask a lobbyist for the tobacco industry if smoking kills and they'll tell you it won't.

http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9006865&contentId=7013479

BP doesn't sell directly but they use a franchise model, they make money for the signs over the gas stations. It estimates a franchise to require an investment of between $1.8 to $7.5 million over the course of their 20-year contract, which includes the real estate cost for a 40,000 to 60,000 square foot plot. This includes the plans for the building (sold to you by BP), all marketing materials inside the stations and out, commercials and publicity (ha!), and most assuredly a yearly or monthly subscription type charge. Just like how not going to McDonalds doesn't really hurt the McDonalds corporation directly ... just when the franchise goes out of business or decides they'd rather be a Five Guys instead and the franchise money stops flowing. Luckily BP isn't going to be able to sell a franchise for years already, and with 20-year contract terms all of the franchises up for a new contract certainly won't be renewing when people stay away from their stores under a BP logo.

You could argue that it doesn't matter, but with their stock in free fall and their willingness to reprint signs for all of their BP stations to say "oh we're not really BP, but we kinda are" at a loss for the company (how many big corporations being squeezed for cash are willing to do a lot of things at a loss, exactly?) shows how desperate they are to keep their franchisers happy.

You go ahead and side with BP, I'm going with Public Citizen any day.

$30,000 over 20 years is supposed to be significant to a company pulling in billions in profit every quarter? Of the $1.8 to $7.5 million total investment, it should be plainly obvious that land, construction, and payroll costs would account for the overwhelming majority.

There's no possible way the sum total of franchise operations are very significant to BP. If you want to make any sort of convincing argument that it is, you need to dig into their financials and show what percentage of their revenue franchising accounts for. You'll be disappointed with what you find though.

I notice that, in your infinite comprehension of reading, you fixated on the lobbyist's (plainly true, regardless of bias) statement and ignored this other bit we've been telling you all along:

Moreover, BP doesn't solely provide gasoline to its franchises.

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, purchasing gasoline from a given company does not mean the gasoline was produced by that particular company's refineries.

After oil companies such as BP extract crude oil from the ground, it is sent to the company's refineries to be refined into gasoline. The gasoline is then sent through shared pipelines or shipped in batches to storage terminals.

Anyone who wants to retail gasoline, such as grocery chains, can purchase this gasoline from BP's terminals as "unbranded" gasoline. It only becomes "branded" when BP injects its own additives into the gasoline, which is then sold to retailers such as those owned by Scaramella.

It's telling that you're still resorting to strawmanning me as a BP supporter, just because I don't support your emotional, knee-jerk reaction. I gave you the benefit of the doubt earlier in the thread, but you're obviously doing that consciously.

Mark it on your calendar....I agree with Sanchek on the above post.

I have to go to the bathroom I feel sick.

$30,000 over 20 years is supposed to be significant to a company pulling in billions in profit every quarter? Of the $1.8 to $7.5 million total investment, it should be plainly obvious that land, construction, and payroll costs would account for the overwhelming majority.

There's no possible way the sum total of franchise operations are very significant to BP. If you want to make any sort of convincing argument that it is, you need to dig into their financials and show what percentage of their revenue franchising accounts for. You'll be disappointed with what you find though.

Where the gas comes from is irrelevant in a discussion of the corporation caring far more about profits than the environment. Losing franchises will affect BP's profits, that's the bottom line. Even if my boycotting only takes a few dollars out of BP's pockets - that's enough since its all I can do. You said boycotting wouldn't affect BP, and I told you exactly how that is incorrect. Public Citizen already has worked out the financial details from public records, I don't need to. Vilify me for trying to do something all you want.

BP branded and Arco gas stations are even managed as separate subsidiary companies, you'd have to basically drive them out of business entirely to affect the parent's finances, and they'd just sell off and rebrand it anyway.

I find myself agreeing with Lummus though on public executions. For proportionality to criminal cases, if we state the value of human life at say, 20 million dollars, not at all outrageous given awards in wrongful death cases, then BP has done damages to the public which are easily equivalent to the murder of thousands of people. Any person of such power and influence that their greed and negligence can cause hundreds of billions of dollars of harm should be strung up on gallows from the facade of the NYSE as a lesson to others and a strong tradition of accountability passed down to our subsequent generations, who will have it much tighter on resources than us.

Vilify me for trying to do something all you want.

Sure, you're doing "something", but that doesn't automatically make it a good idea. What you're proposing makes about as much sense as protesting a government's war by taking it out on the troops caught in the middle.

I find myself agreeing with Lummus though on public executions. For proportionality to criminal cases, if we state the value of human life at say, 20 million dollars, not at all outrageous given awards in wrongful death cases, then BP has done damages to the public which are easily equivalent to the murder of thousands of people. Any person of such power and influence that their greed and negligence can cause hundreds of billions of dollars of harm should be strung up on gallows from the facade of the NYSE as a lesson to others and a strong tradition of accountability passed down to our subsequent generations, who will have it much tighter on resources than us.

Hey, corporations wanted to be treated like people, right?

Sure, you're doing "something", but that doesn't automatically make it a good idea. What you're proposing makes about as much sense as protesting a government's war by taking it out on the troops caught in the middle.

No, not really. Its called exercising my rights as a consumer. Picking one entity over another. Kinda like buying American instead of Chinese, though no one complained when you posted this (http://ayonae.com/buying-american-still-matters-t12641.html?t=12641&highlight=american) that we were taking it out on the poor Wal-Mart employees instead of the big corporations because that would have been just as fucking stupid as your comments.

Do you honestly not understand the difference between a boycott and "buy American", or are you just being aimlessly belligerent at this point? I suppose the later would definitely fit with your insistence on this boycott of BP branded coffee and the employees that sell it.

Regardless, the fact still stands that boycotting gas from BP stations is nothing more than boycotting gas with BP's brand of additives. They'll still sell every drop of that gas, even if every BP store closed and gone. The fundamental demand that fueled the disaster in the gulf won't be affected by your emotional reaction.

If you want to hurt BP, you should focus all of this angst into positive alternatives.

Five years ago, the chance to buy a gas station and a busy repair shop from BP seemed like an opportunity for Jose and Betty Camacho.

The husband and wife figured that the well-traveled stretch between Washington, D.C., and its Maryland suburbs should generate lots of business. They own their business, but are franchisees. By contract, they must buy their gas from BP until 2020.

You get after those big bad franchisees stuck in contracts for the gas BP is going to sell anyway. You drive those Americans right out of business. That will show British Petroleum.

You get after those big bad franchisees stuck in contracts for the gas BP is going to sell anyway. You drive those Americans right out of business. That will show British Petroleum.

You'd prefer we don't patronize the big bad American owned franchise across the street that pays Exxon, Hess, etc. for their signage instead?

Similarly you wouldn't complain about the poor Americans who run a tobacco shop with all the smoking bans, or the poor Americans who run a McDonalds that are losing business as people choose healthier options now that the calories are on their menu. No one is upset when the poor Americans who sell drugs on the street corner are losing business with legalized marijuana. No one is upset about the poor American Wal-Mart employees who would lose business if we chose to buy local, buy American products. Its a dumb, extremely weak argument.

You're so caught up in trying to out-douche Sanchek that you've lost any semblance of an argument. Face it, you can't be a bigger douche than Sanchek, admit defeat and repeat that last paragraph to yourself. Say that point about McDonalds versus other restaurants to yourself in the mirror and follow it with "Really?"

Maybe we should boycott Massengill*!

* But keep right on buying Summer's Eve.

Listen, its fine. You guys can sit in the corner and choose not to do anything. I'm going to take the route of trying to do something, even if its impact is negligible. I don't shop at Wal-Mart, not thinking I'll put them out of business, but rather because I don't believe in their practices and would rather spend my money elsewhere. I buy local groceries, I support local businesses, I donate my time to help the causes I care about... I'd rather encourage those I feel are doing a good job.

And while it may not be working on a large financial scale I can't help but notice I live quite the blessed life anymore. My family are healthy and happy, my girlfriend is simply amazing, my company is doing unbelievably well, and I've put my savings account back together from buying my house. Just this past month I got to shoot some hoops with our President, watched David Strasburg's major league debut from the Pirate's dugout, and had an amazing conversation with my idol Nora Ephron. It certainly isn't because of my skills or anything like that, the only thing I can equate it to is my positive attitude, trying to do my best whenever I can, and karma. Maybe if you take a tiny fraction of your unbelievably negative attitude and channel it in a useful manner you'd have a lot less desire to shit on everyone else's ideas online.

I'm sure people like Jose and Betty Camacho will be blown away by your "positivity", as you try to convince us to put them out of business.

Namaste, indeed.

I'm sure people like Jose and Betty Camacho will be blown away by your "positivity", as you try to convince us to put them out of business.

Namaste, indeed.

http://ayonae.com/showpost.php?p=178023&postcount=84

http://ayonae.com/showpost.php?p=178023&postcount=84

http://ayonae.com/showpost.php?p=178018&postcount=82

Unless your BP boycott includes boycotting all gasoline, these comparisons you keep trying to make are simply not valid.

Public Citizen already has worked out the financial details from public records, I don't need to.

Since you avoided actually backing up your claims with numbers, I figured I'd go to the source you cited and look for these details you were referencing. I didn't find any rational financial reasoning behind the boycott push (surprise!), but this was linked in their sidebar:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/12/your-money/12money.html

This doesn’t send a particularly powerful message to BP, though. After all, BP owns only a handful of the 11,000 stations that bear its brand and is trying to sell the few still on its books. So those who wish to inflict the maximum amount of pain on the company are instead putting much of the hurt on the family businesses that actually own the stations.

Just how little does BP gain from its gas stations, besides whatever ancillary marketing benefit it gains from the signs? The gas in its pumps may not be extracted, refined or stored by the company and may just get a spritz of BP additives right before it ends up at the service station. All of this puts a mere handful of coins in the company’s pocket per fill-up.

And the gas that people buy when they fill up elsewhere? Fuel from independent gas stations, grocery chains and big-box wholesale clubs sometimes comes directly from refineries or wholesalers that BP owns outright.

... etc ...

You obviously don't care what the actual consequences of your actions are though, long as you can internally brand them as "positive".

I have never really used BP branded gas unless it was an emergency prior to this because of issues several unrelated mechanics have mentioned to me over the years that said mechanics blamed on the additives added to the BP fuel. I have been told that the additives can wreck 'havoc' on several of the engines parts over time.

That said, even if it's an emergency now, I won't stop at a BP station. Say what you will Sanchek about it only hurting the franchisees, I really don't give a fuck. It says BP in front of their establishment, and given all the lies and falsities that BP has thrown out at the American people hoping it will stick for the last two months, I won't 'knowingly' support a business that says BP out front.

It may not hurt BP all that much, but just like I won't shop at Wal-Mart, I don't even want to see BP on my bank account when I go online to view my recent transactions.

Do you think those franchisees are going to Alabama/Mississippi/Louisiana/or the panhandle of Florida right now to try to keep all the people in that region in business? Businesses fail in this country every day. Franchises fail too. People understand that when they buy their franchise establishment that any negative press towards the company will negatively affect their business. I'd rather give my money to a franchisee that isn't giving some of their money to BP, regardless of how little that money may be.

You may think that's misguided Sanchek, but I can spend my money at places I want. I bet there are companies you won't support either, for whatever reason you so choose. That's your right as well.

Freedom of choice = good.
Being an independent minded consumer = good.
Knowing the history of what you are buying = good too

One has to ask this as well, since this is not the hottest topic here in ages since it got eclipsed by the Iphone discussion, would you still buy an Iphone if you know that for every Iphone bought a cute cuddly animal of your choice got shot in the face with a sawed off shotgun? Kitty cats. Puppy dogs. Baby seals. Whatever comes to mind when you think of cute fuzzy adorable animals. Not just a death but a brutal, ugly, messy death. Ok, so lets replace the animal with a sweatshop electronics worker in China working for Foxconn who doesn't have to be shot. They just jump out a window.

I am guessing many of you still would because the Iphone is just that cool and besides the truckers who ship them, the salespeople who hawk them as well as the engineers and software coders need to make a living in addition to Steve Jobs being able to rake in billions while having the chance to be on stage pontificating about how he is offering a little piece of the Star Trek dream to us everyday folks. The Foxconn workers who don't kill themselves also need to continue to have a chance to make 400 dollars a month. The Iphone is not only an intriguing gadget in its own right. Its also a priceless tool for business with unfathomable bounds to what it can do for productivity. Fuels are in the same category. With no juice our world reverts to anarchy. Well, its a good thing there are still choices on the market eh? Its not time to prowl the wastelands in the last of the V8 Interceptors on the endless quest for guz'oline quite yet, taking whatever can be found as their is no other option.

Most every product offered on the market has a seedy underbelly to it along the supply chain before it reaches the final stages of slick marketing and packaging. Open pit mining. Air polution. Exploited workers in far away unregulated nations etc. Since most things cost 2 cents to make and the rest of the price is distribution, marketing and taxes from the many numbers of hands that the product passes through before that 2 cent item becomes a 300 dollar purchase, the underbelly can be vast in its seediness. Sometimes though, the underbelly is too seedy. There is too much dirty laundry with a product to the point where the desire to support others in their pursuits of a living by giving them business is outstripped by the blatent destruction done under their organization's banner. BP is definately such a case and deserve all they have coming to them. Its a shame that some people might lose their jobs and some businesses might tank...but hey..thats the breaks. Life isn't fair.

As it turned out, working at Foxconn in China reduced the average Chinese person's risk of suicide: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/foremski/media-gets-its-facts-wrong-working-at-foxconn-significantly-cuts-suicide-risk/1356

Damn them!

In fact, the suicide rate in wealthy countries like France, Switzerland, and Japan are quite a bit higher than either Foxconn's Chinese factories or China as a whole.

The media's recent (and brief) fixation on that is more of the same superficial, rush-to-judgement decision making that convinces people that boycotting privately owned BP stations is a good idea. Generally speaking, the American public has long-since lost the ability and/or desire to apply a worthwhile amount of critical thinking to these things.

Well, I stand corrected. Boycotting BP stations has cost BP money after all: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128190762

You know your boycott is a bad cause when it makes even BP look good by comparison.

You know your boycott is successful when it costs BP at least $50 to $70 million dollars, them knowing that they've screwed the pooch big time and they owe that and then some to retain a few of their franchisees.

Remember, THEY fucked up. THEY cost these gas stations their business, it wasn't me or the people who choose to spend their hard earned money wherever the fuck they want to. But I'm sure you don't quite have the capacity to understand that.

That's some amazing circlejerk logic. No officer, I'm not responsible even though I pulled the trigger because other people were also mad at them for denying responsibility!

You know your boycott is successful when it costs BP at least $50 to $70 million dollars, them knowing that they've screwed the pooch big time and they owe that and then some to retain a few of their franchisees.

Remember, THEY fucked up. THEY cost these gas stations their business, it wasn't me or the people who choose to spend their hard earned money wherever the fuck they want to. But I'm sure you don't quite have the capacity to understand that.

That "positivity" is sure shining through now.

The Kalamazoo River in Michigan now has an oil slick covering an estimated 16 miles, due to a leak in the pipeline.
Not sure which company owns that pipeline.

And in non-oil-spill related news, ........