They are nerfing my horse, freaking whinners and griefers...what good is a Paladin with a mount that only has a 10% movement buff? :mad: :(

You could have stopped with "What good is a paladin?" =)

Hey, it was meant to be a fun spell, not something actually useful. As it stands, your 10% move buff is more utile than my ability to make people in my group of lower level bow.

I'm finding the tradeskill changes to be of greater concern now. Well, minor concern, since I'm currently not playing.

you're not playing? :(

yes but in EQ2 paladins cannot dual wield or use bows, our horse is all we had :(

It would be nice if they bumped them from fun spells to useful ones. Like givimg a wizard benefits for having a familiar other than draining a concentration point for nothing.

If only I could understand one day Sony's nerfing reasons... What good is it to constantly piss of some people? Why not rather boost feeble classes, instead of nerfing the strong ones?

Anyway - what bad are the tradeskill changes? I understand that every artisan can refine his own material, but that doesnt mean interdepency is removed. Its only the first step interdepency that is removed. Or you mean something else?

Lani

Patch note please!!!

As for the nerf to Pally horse? Way overdue, seeing as my damn hawk is less usefull then a full on summer cold. Too damn many pallys were useing them to scoop up resources.

Fandros

The next major update:
This post is intended to discuss recent and upcoming changes to game balance. Some of these changes will be met favorably, others less so, but the goal of all of them is the same: to ensure a fun, challenging game that keeps players excited for years to come.

The changes discussed below will be seen in Live Update #3, which is on the Test server today and going to the live servers next week.

Damage Output

There has been a lot of discussion on the forums since launch regarding the relative power of each class when it comes to dealing damage. The intended order of damage output by archetype is (and always has been): mage, scout, fighter, priest.

Obviously that isn't the order currently present in the game. Right now fighters do the most overall damage, followed by scouts, followed by mages, and finally priests. This is a situation we are working to remedy, and Live Update #3 will make major strides toward addressing it.

Mages are intended to to do a lot of damage at the price of being frail defensively. With this major update, wizards and warlocks will see a damage output increase of up to 300% in the case of many key spells. These changes, affecting the classes from 20 to 50, should put them at the top of the heap when it comes to damage output. We are still in the process of evaluating changes to summoners and enchanters, but recent DoT stacking changes, bug fixes in this update, and buff timer changes (see below) should help the other mage professions feel more useful and powerful until their damage output can be thoroughly assessed.

The greatest imbalance currently in the game relates to fighters. Tanks are supposed to absorb damage, but they're also currently the best at dishing it out. This is due to the way our strength bonus works. Currently in the live game, a strength of 400 (achievable at the higher levels with buffs and gear) results in a 200% damage bonus. This results in fighters being the premier melee damage dealers, since they typically have the highest STR values.

Live Update #3 changes the bonus awarded by having high amounts of strength. The table below illustrates the effect of the bonus change.

STR Old Bonus New Bonus
100 125% 125%
200 150% 135%
300 175% 145%
400 200% 155%

As you can see, the soloer or small group player, who is unlikely to reach high levels of strength, will see little or no impact. The change has a considerable effect at the upper levels of the game when players can achieve extremely high STR in raid encounters.

While this change will have some impact on scouts, it should be minimal enough (due to the fact that they typically don't have STR at the same degree as fighters) that scouts will now have higher damage output than fighters. This helps scouts fill the role they were intended to fill as damage dealers through the use of their powerful arts.

This update by no means represents the final balance of damage output. We will continue to tune spells and arts to achieve the goals stated above.

Tanking

The last major update included a significant change to the way agility affected damage avoidance. Similar to the bonus given by strength shown above, agility had a major impact on how likely a character was to avoid an attack.

For example, if a monk or bruiser could be buffed such that his agility was 200 points higher than the opponent's to-hit stats, they would avoid all but 4% of the enemy's damage output. A plate tank with a shield also had 96% avoidance, and a scout with no shield had 90% avoidance.

Even an AGI advantage of 100 points allowed light and heavy armor tanks to avoid all but 14% and 15% of enemy damage output, while scouts avoided 77% of the damage. Since this stat advantage was easily reachable with typical buffs and debuffs, tanking was trivialized in many encounters.

The change we implemented was to raise the stats of NPCs that are level 30 and higher while decreasing the bonus given by agility. Higher-level encounters were no longer as trivial to tank, especially for scouts (who are not meant to be tanking heroic and epic content anyway).

After further parsing and analysis, we have decided that further delineation is needed between a fighter's ability to tank versus a scout's ability. As part of Live Update #3, we are improving heavy armor to mitigate 11% more damage and light armor to mitigate 35% more damage. In addition to making fighters tank better overall, this should address concerns raised by bruisers and monks. Light armor tanks still depend on deflection, but with increased mitigation their tanking ability should be less prone to streaks of damage.

Tradeskill Changes

While not related to combat balance, artisans need attention of their own. We've read the comments on the crafting boards about how some tradeskill classes are extremely dependent upon obtaining components from other professions while some are virtually self-sufficient.

In Live Update #3, all tradeskill classes can refine their own materials and components. While each subclass will still be needed to produce the final products, the interdependency for components has been removed.

This update also includes an added production cost to the crafting process: fuel prices. We feel this is a necessary step, both to remove money from the economy and to help establish costs and values for crafted goods. The fuel price will be used in determining the sell-back value to vendors, so artisans will not be penalized for producing goods to raise their skills and selling the items back to NPC merchants. However, the primary means of earning cash for artisans should be selling products to other players.

We will continue to tune the crafting system and address bugs and balance issues as they arise.

Mounts and Run-Speed Buffs

In Live Update #3 we will be decreasing the speed buffs given by mounts. Run-speed enhancements, especially at the entry level, should provide a way to travel faster, not act as a means to avoid every potential battle.

The changes to run-speed enhancements will be as follows:

Starter Mounts (2.5pp) - 24%, formerly 32%
Standard Mounts (5pp) - 32%, formerly 40%
Best Non Status Mount (8.2pp) - 40%, formerly 48%
Flying Carpets/Undead Mounts (50pp and status) - 48%, formerly 56%
Totem buff - 24% with a 30 minute duration, formerly 40%

The biggest change, however, will be to paladin and shadowknight mounts that are granted as one of their entertainment spells. The original intent was for the spells to grant a horse with no run-speed buff at all. The fact that there was a significant speed boost was an error on our part, and while we regret making a drastic change to an existing spell, in fairness to other classes we feel this is the best approach.

Crusader mounts are currently a 32% buff, which will be reduced to 10% (the same speed as Journeyman's Boots). While still giving a benefit, the horse will provide a relatively minor enhancement.

There have been numerous requests to increase the speed buff provided by Legendary Jboots. However, since the Jboot effect stacks with other run-speed buffs and the boots themselves provide nice stats, we have decided to leave the boots as is.

We realize this change won't be a popular one, but we feel it is better for the game that we make it.

Other Spell Changes

In Live Update #3, we are making a few overall changes to spells and arts that should be seen positively by most everyone.

First, spells that are blue, green, and grey will no longer fizzle (assuming your casting skills are maxed for your level). While I had previously reported that white-con spells would be included in this change, some issues arose that prevented us from including them. Instead, we will reduce the overall chance that white-con spells will fizzle. My apologies for the confusion.

Secondly, we have changed buff timers significantly. Short-duration group buffs will last 10 minutes instead of 3 minutes, and single-target buffs are being changed to last 15 minutes. This should provide increased utility to many buffs, both for soloing and group play.

There are many additional changes coming in Live Update #3, as you will see when reading the update notes in the Test server forums. Hopefully this post makes clear some of our goals and the reasons behind the decisions we have made. The long-term health of the game is our greatest motivation, as we work to ensure that EverQuest II is a fun and challenging game now and in the future.
Message Edited by Moorgard on 02-09-2005 07:22 PM

===========================
Moorgard
EverQuest II Community Guy

I'm suspicious of the degree of interdependency that's been removed. While carpenters should be able to refine and plane their own wood with their best buffs, this change could adversely affect alchemists if, for example, carpenters could make their own WORT.

With this major update, wizards and warlocks will see a damage output increase of up to 300% in the case of many key spells.

You know, tweaking balance is one thing, but that sony should even be having to do an 'error' correction of this magnitude suggests that classes simply weren't even meaningfully tested prior to the game going live. It astonishes me that people continue to pay to Everbeta EQ2 at all...

Sorry for the negative post, but I was really disappointed/disgusted with EQ2 and have since removed it from my system...

Regards,
Nydia

As I understand, carpenters can refine their own woods, but not plan it... The second step would still require stroma/granum/whatever resin.

Lani

That's too bad Nydia, because it's vastly superior and far less bug ridden than Worlds of Woecrap imho.

I'm, for one, glad to see these changes being made because they are right. And anyone worth their salt that has done a lick of beta testing will tell you Beta is horrible for balance issues solely due to the lack of load/numer of folks playing.

Fandros Finglaflin
Rangering still, after all these years...

/sigh all the pally griefers

I would take your hawk any day and you can have my horse with the 30% movement increase IF I could use a bow and dual wield. Pallys are shafted and the horse was a gimp prize until people whinned 57 pages of crap on the SoE boards. None of us complained much about losing stats b/c of having empty item slots b/c the horse made up for it.

I could also live with this IF, I knew in the future I had something to look forward and not the level 40 "summon squire" BS either, but a real horse like the one from AAs in EQ1.

Sometimes I just don't understand what the hell they are thinking at SoE :(

As for the wizard damage, I group with a wiz daily 1-2 levels below me and he always out damages me (that is if my parser is to be believed). I have yet to see the damage of a wizard as an issue in our groups. However, upping their nukes to 300% is going to make holding aggro even more difficult....but a challenge nonetheless. ;)

So they are nerfing fighter DPS, nerfing pally horses, and making wizards/warlocks an even larger mob magnet....WTG SoE! Not that it will keep me from playing mind you the game rawks, I cancelled my WoW subscription ;)

Wizards are going to have to relearn their class with this change. As it was, I often spent a lot of power healing one every few fights.

But Fil, you can tank!!!

Try that as a ranger, unless the mob is dern near greyed out to you.

Fandros

My dwarf hunter > Fandros.
For Khaz Modan!

You do know that the fact that the paladin horse had a speed buff was a bug, right? Dual wield? Why would you want to, you tank better with a sword and board.

Bows? Why would you want that? Do you know that some of the scout subclasses are the only ones that have part of their damage output tied to expendable resources? Expendable resources that tend to get expensive at the higher levels? Resources like poisons and arrows?

The crusader horses should have had their speed increases removed long ago. The fact that Sony let it proceed so long in a bugged state is a travesty.

Sometimes it's not about damage Buadyen, it's the simple fact I have two empty slots that I could be using for stats (wether or not I use them). Sheesh.

And I could care less if it's a bug, 3 months is a long damn time to fix it. Or rather let everyone whine, bitch, and moan to have it changed.

Yes Fandros I imagine with AGI nerf it's hard to tank as scout now ;)

I just love this guy's post, very eloquent and well written and sums it all up pretty well.


I was having fun playing until SOE decided to listen to the whiners and break my horses' legs. Bob (my horse) wasn't hurting anyone. He wasn't even that much faster than sprinting with decent food. He was just there, helping my little dwarven paladin stand tall (well almost as tall as my barbarrian friend). I was so proud of Bob. He had saved me, and my group more times than I could count.

But then something happened. People looked at their glowing hand, or their little flaming 6 armed guy form, or their little "make someone dance or bow" spell, then looked at me, Galloping off into the sunset with my noble steed. They forgot the fact that they could use larger shields than I could, or could wield weapons of greater might because My character refused such weapons and large shields. They forgot that with that spell that made people bow, the recieved ten times the healing power I'd recieved. They just saw what I had, and said, "He shouldn't have that!"

And they said it to the powers that could change such things, and they said at the time, "We have no plans to change it at this time" which means they didn't think it was unbalancing, or an unfair advantage. They thought it was fine. So what did these jealous people do? instead of looking at the things they had, they screamed "Kill Bob!" at the top of their lungs because for them to have a trusty steed of their own was many many gold away for them, and they thought it was unfair for me to have such a privilage before them.

A question for those of you who are screaming for the death of my horse.. How much platinum can I pay to heft a tower shield in combat? How 'bout a bow? How about just something to go in that ranged inventory slot to give me some kind of stats? Anyone? What can I pay to get the ability to swing two weapons in battle? ..or have truly meaningful healing powers? How bout evac? Pathfinding? 600+ point nukes? How about any skill that can make me more desirable than my warrior friends in a group? When will I be able to buy those abilities? Anyone?

I have never said this before, but I'm going to evaluate WoW. I have always been a fanboi of both EQ1 and 2. But this is too much. There has been too much listening to whiners in this game. Too much random nerfing of class defining traits and abilities. Too much arbitrary "balancing". You know what? If you're not as powerful as you think you should be, don't go trying to get other people's toys taken away from them. Go out there and lobby for some toys of your own. It's not like you there are limits to what you can have in a virtual world. You don't have to take something away from me that I enjoy just to have have something you'll enjoy. Or do you?



Message Edited by ECDMuppet on 02-11-2005 08:19 AM


Throgg
Dwarven Paladin and Provisioner
Whiners killed my horse!
Innothule

"We have no plans to change it at this time" which means they didn't think it was unbalancing, or an unfair advantage. They thought it was fine.
It's well written, but I think he's overreaching here. SOE stated that it was not intended. In the quote above, they're simply saying that a fix wasn't a priority. Throgg also undermines his case when he says that "I was so proud of Bob. He had saved me, and my group more times than I could count." If that's the case, then his "fun spell" was truly overpowered. Making people bow saves no one. Having a do nothing pet cat also saves no one. Throgg has, with that statement, entirely justified the nerf.

To make the paladin's case, they have to show how they are unbalanced without the horse. Appealing to lack of slot use doesn't do much good without exhaustive examples of how paladins are underpowered. Even then, the solution would be to fix those powers, not provide brave, mighty knights of goodness the ability to effectively flee like screaming children. :)

haha duly noted ;)

He is very right on whiners though. Whiners kill the game. I am playing a ranger myself, and before this patch news, people were already complaining to beef the scouts or nerf the mages. Even if people are twice as strong as other classes, they will whine and say shit.

I really feel for you pallies, and hope you get your horses back soon. Its a nice and fun thing that you surely deserve.

Lani
Ranger 32/Woodworker 34
Guk

sorry about the horse, i didn't whine about that. hell, i don't think there's a class that hasn't had a major hit to it. you don't see me whining about druids (or anyone else) not having the ability to port. i have to walk or take the drunken birds just like everyone else. although i would love to have tracking back, i'm not going to bitch about it.