http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7615931.stm

- Just as people began to feel somewhat more confident about the US economy...

I think we're in this global downturn for the long-run. It could get a lot messier.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7615931.stm

- Just as people began to feel somewhat more confident about the US economy...

I think we're in this global downturn for the long-run. It could get a lot messier.

There's certainly nothing to be confident about.

Ron Paul's been calling this years ahead of anyone else I've seen talk about it. If he got this much correct, I see no reason why he'll be substantially wrong about the rest.

Looks like the European markets are down 5% right now. Dow futures were down 400 points here, before the bell.

But hey, at least everyone had their McMansions for a few years!

I am wondering just how deeply Phil Gramm's fingers can be found in all of this. And McCain would probably say he does not know enough about economics to comment at this time, but his good friend Phil Gramm assures him it is just a bump in the road to prosperity.

And yet the media and the two leading parties would have us believe the most important things in this election year are about Moose hunting, abortion, and gay marriage. People need to get a fucking grip.

Gramm was definitely complicit in the subprime meltdown. No doubt about that.

And yet the media and the two leading parties would have us believe the most important things in this election year are about Moose hunting, abortion, and gay marriage. People need to get a fucking grip.


The two past elections have had both abortion and gay marriage as their cornerstone issues. This though is really the republicans driving force, I must say that Obama has attempted to stay on message and his negative efforts have been mostly answering McCain's attacks.

I'm not saying that there is no complicity from Obama's campaign but facts are facts it's the Rovian style that dominates republicans.

McCains campaign is full of the deregulators as is the republican party and today McCain is out talking about the need to strike a free trade agreement with Colombia as Colombia is a nation that freed three Americans, that is his reasoning, I kid you not. For some retarded reason there seems to be a majority that buys into this type of reasoning.

Deregulation is good because it makes us free.

A free trade agreement with Colombia is good because they rescued three Americans held captive and McCain knows what it is like to be held captive. Please note when making this point one must ignore the fact that there is an active and large revolution in the country that freed the three hostages, one large enough that it can't seem to be quashed.

Bank failures are a direct result of whining Americans, if we don't whine the banks won't collapse, just go shopping and watch TV (preferably fox news) and we can fix this somehow, maybe borrowing money from China...yeah thats the ticket.

Did you also see Marill Lynch was bought by Bank of Evil i mean America for 50 bIllion, which i read a report syaing 5 years ago would of been a laughable number as far as too low.

The over extension of the U.S. credit system is still bleeding out. Fanny Mae / Fredie Mac last weekend, Lehman this weekend with news that Merrill Lynch a 153 year old American instituation is on the chopping block to Bank of America for 50 billion, and the fun has just begun!

There are predictions that we will see a few more weekends of mass confusion before a long period of stagnat growth settles in on the markets. Looks like the powers at be are trying to spread the damage out in a cluster of smaller bombs instead of letting the big one drop in one massive outing.

We are not in "major" correction territory yet due to the mass dumping of funds into financial instututions hit the hardest, but when we add up the beans at the end of the year it will most likely look like one on paper.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/business/worldbusiness/16yuan.html?hp


After five years of tightening monetary policy to fight inflation, China abruptly reversed course Monday, cutting interest rates and easing bank lending restrictions in response to signs that growth in the Chinese economy was slowing.


Looks like America's credit card limit just got bumped up.

The bets placed in the earlier part of the decade have been played out and most peeps lost, now the bookie is looking to collect and he is pissed, I just hope he doesn't decide to go for the knee caps and instead gives a quick rap to the back of the head of American borrowers and lending institutions to wake them up to reality.


Cheers,

In a way Rover I agree with you. We, the consumers are partially to blame here (probably not me and you directly) people buying houses and shit they can't afford and then expecting someone to bail them out is just batshitcrazy. But they got the idea from somewhere. At some point, people need to stand the fuck up and take ownership for their debt and realize they need to fix it themselves. Of course they could have gotten the idea from the fact that these large companies are getting bail outs so why shouldn't they?

It's disgusting. I work with a guy who borrows to pay debt that paid debt for debt. I'm like dude, WTF rein your wife in. She has this concept money grows on trees or something.

I cringe whenever I see "no payments, no interest till 2012" now b/c I know the stores are eating that cost and they're putting it back on the consumer with price hikes and god knows what else. So when joeschmoemegayga buys that TV from C.City for $2k he doesn't have but doesn't have to pay for it for 2+ years he starts thinking well hell, maybe I shouldn't pay for it at all. Bottom line, if you can't afford it you can't afford it! How hard is this?

I remember a man named Ross Perot that said the Government, economically, should be run like a business: you don't spend more than you take in. It was also said that if a private citizen ran thier own finances like the Government did, then they would be put in jail for fraud.

Looks like somebody got the bright idea to try just exactly that....

The guy who trained me in the television field, his dad retired from Lehman Brothers. His pension is Lehman Brothers, all his savings are in Lehman Brothers stock ...

He's kinda fucked, isn't he?

I think the problem can't so much be put on the consumer as it should be placed directly on these banks. I bought my house and I knew I could afford it, I paid my mortgage on time faithfully, heres where it gets interesting.

Last November I get a notice that my mortgage has been sold and that lo and behold I should now send my payments to Lehman Bros and that I would be contacted as to the payment details.

So I get a statement saying that I can pay online once I create an account, I try this and it won't let me pay, I go to plan B and phone them. I attempt to make a payment by phone and they say the amount I am trying to pay is wrong that I need to pay $500.00 more.

I tell them that the amount I am trying to pay is the amount on the statement and is also the amount I have always paid. They respond by refusing to accept my payment, now mind you this goes on for days on the phone and now I start recording the conversations as they are now telling me I have to pay late fees on top of the $500 more.

I now send them a letter by mail and fax disputing the additional $500.00 (as oddly enough it is exactly what would be owed if they doubled my escrow)

They ignore my letter of dispute and this goes on for December, January, February with each month they refuse to accept my payment of $1800.00 as they say I owe them $2300.00 a month.

Then they send me a notice of default that says I have not paid my mortgage in October 2007, November 2007, December 2007, January 2008, Feb 2008, March 2008. Now I have my conversations taped, written documentation and also proof that I paid in October and November 2007 to my original mortgage company, not only do I have proof from my bank but also from the old mortgage company.

So my house goes into foreclosure and thankfully I have the money to hire an attorney to take them to task but now I am spending thousands on legal bills as I'm sure they are and it is indisputable that I am right.

Then I find out that Lehman Bros seems to be doing this all over the place and it turns out that thousands are fighting them like I am. It seems they try to force people into foreclosure to build a real asset portfolio.

Anyhow I've made them an offer of short sell but they have not answered the offer.

Anyhow, Lehman Bros made their bed, I have no sympathy for this institution they wrote shit mortgages and they played games with people...fuck'em I hope they burn!

all his savings are in Lehman Brothers stock

Retirement plan aside, his strategy is one of "All his eggs in one basket"?

Thats the first rule of financial investment, diversify.

If he has half brain I seriously doubt he has all his investments tied up in one company.


Cheers,

That totally sucks Rover and there is no doubt that some regulation or something needs to happen with the banks and with companies that lend money. But at some point some where the buck needs to stop. Some people, including my own mother has no concept of how to manage and control spending it's insane that people live their lives day to day borrowing money from others to pay back people they owe money to b/c they borrowed from them to pay someone else. It's not just robbing peter to pay paul it's robbing peter, paul, mattthew and luke to pay tom dick and harry for the money you borrowed.

So it's not like we can point at one thing and say oh yeah that's the culprit. It's many things and it's things that have gone on for years that have slowly degraded into this mess.

I bought my current house about 3 years ago. During that process I had several brokers trying to get me to take a variable rate loan or some 80/20 shit so I could get a bigger house. Even after I told them I didn't want it and that I had what I wanted and to shut up and give me my 30 yr fixed, that I'd refi it later if the rates dropped. It got to the point where I just went with someone completely different and who gave me exactly what I wanted without trying to sell me more. I knew what I could afford and it sure wasn't what they were trying to give me. Those assholes probably tricked tons of people, it's disgusting.

I'm just wondering at what point on the bottom will people start paying attention.

Retirement plan aside, his strategy is one of "All his eggs in one basket"?

Thats the first rule of financial investment, diversify.

If he has half brain I seriously doubt he has all his investments tied up in one company.


Cheers,

He's an old man. It was the company he worked at for years and years. Your suggestion to him is a bit worthless at this stage of the game.

He's an old man. It was the company he worked at for years and years. Your suggestion to him is a bit worthless at this stage of the game.
Kind of reminds me of my 79 year old step-dad. He just doesn't understand why I can't find a company to work for for 30 years like he did 'back in the day'.

I've seen his pension from IBM diminish further and further over the years, till he practically has nothing, currently. This is a man that helped put astronauts on the moon, and he is expected to live on less than $20k/year. Outlandish if you ask me.

The woe over retirement funds in a single stock today will be woe over retirement funds in a single currency in the future.

Learn from these guys' misfortune.

It's because these companies broke the deals they made with these retired people. They put their lives into them, built them to be powerhouses of not only business but innovation and technology. These retirees are'nt stupid or clueless, they have simply been swindled.

Jesus is back in town and hes cleaning up the Temple once again.

http://www.reformation.org/moneychangers.html

Holy quackers, that is about as good as the damn email of goodies someone sent me about Palin.

The title: There is hope

It was a bunch of comics, photo chops of her basically indicating she is the vindicator and is going to feed the liberals and media to the christians. The best one was her wearing a hockey jershey resembling the US with a caption of do you believe in miracles?

WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF, we live in a country with cooks on all sides of the isle. Everyday I feel squished closer and closer to the Jessie Jacksons and Preachers, this is fucking insane.

Coming from me, that is slightly tongue in cheek. I am however a strong believer in old world economics based heavily on goods and services. Our economy is so heavily based now on financial services, where money changes hands over and over and interest is the only means for revenue. We don't produce goods and we have an ever shrinking service (non financial) sector. It is a house of cards that is destined to fail. The ancient contributors to the bible knew the dangers of usury all too well.

Coming from me, that is slightly tongue in cheek. I am however a strong believer in old world economics based heavily on goods and services. Our economy is so heavily based now on financial services, where money changes hands over and over and interest is the only means for revenue. We don't produce goods and we have an ever shrinking service (non financial) sector. It is a house of cards that is destined to fail. The ancient contributors to the bible knew the dangers of usury all too well.


I heard this guy speak once...name was ummm...hmmm.....I think he has two first names something like Ron Paul...not sure tho.

LOL @ Rover :)

And the good times just keep rolling in:

Fed Lends $85 Billion to A.I.G. to Head Off Crisis (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/business/18insure.html?hp)

Mr. Bush just raised your taxes again me thinks.

So much for free market in America.


Cheers,

And the good times just keep rolling in:

Fed Lends $85 Billion to A.I.G. to Head Off Crisis (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/business/18insure.html?hp)

Mr. Bush just raised your taxes again me thinks.

So much for free market in America.


Cheers,


Free market is just rhetorical. It is code for exactly what is happening now with bailouts. Free market = save me if I fuck this up

Soon some idiot will say that this was caused by people who got mortgages they couldn't afford.

Here you go Rover.

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/105782/How-We-Got-Here-It-Is-Housing-Stupid

It's nice to see our President is showing such leadership in the face of the growing crisis:

President George W Bush has not answered questions on the economic situation and had cancelled a statement he was set to make on Tuesday.

When asked by a reporter in the Oval Office on Wednesday to comment, Mr Bush said he had not heard the question and joked: "I'm old."

From the BBC, article here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7620318.stm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-greenstein/rising-deficits-dont-blam_b_126986.html

'Coming from me, that is slightly tongue in cheek. I am however a strong believer in old world economics based heavily on goods and services. Our economy is so heavily based now on financial services, where money changes hands over and over and interest is the only means for revenue. We don't produce goods and we have an ever shrinking service (non financial) sector. It is a house of cards that is destined to fail. The ancient contributors to the bible knew the dangers of usury all too well.'

- Britain has more to worry (hence why whenever anything happens in America, it corresponds here instantly, unlike most countries). We are overwhelmingly a service driven insurance, about 80%. Things like insurance, banking, finance, investment, make up a substantial amount of Government revenue, as well as every_man's living.
The City is the centre of British economic life, and when things go to shit in places like Canary Wharf (our Wall Street), the foundations of the country shake very hard.

But I think a service economy has far more advantages than an industrial, manufacturing one. The American economy is very much like the British one used to be, and will copy its trends, I believe. Britain used to deploy its natural resources and technological edge to produce a massive portion of the world's manufactures (hence the 19th Century term for Britain, the 'Workshop of the World'), but as these things declined (from 1900 onward) Britain gradually came to rely far more on invisible earnings such as shipping, insurance, finance and investment (before 1914 mostly oversea's investments). After 1945 until the 1980's, industry sharply declined and the coal fields and steel plants were eventually eradicated from Britain's economic lifeline.

$85 Billion, thats chump's change:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/business/21cong.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

"And it would place no restrictions on the administration other than requiring semiannual reports to Congress, granting the Treasury secretary unprecedented power to buy and resell mortgage debt."


Did anyone else experience a sudden shiver upon reading this, after experiencing all the other good old boy/oil execs business dealings that this administration has engineered? While it may be admirable on some level for Bush to be wanting to spend money somewhere other than Iraq and Afghanistan, I am left wondering (in my admittedly cynical mind) who is going to be making a profit off this bailout in the end.


And then, to top it off, McCain was 'allegedly' wanting to have Gramm as a Treasury Secretary. I can see it now: "Sarah, now that your daughter and her boyfriend have decided to make their union and progeny legitimate, have them pick out a house where they want to live, and we will make sure it is foreclosed on. Consider it a wedding gift."

One major thing that should be done is to place a moratorium on ALL foreclosures and take 90 days for review by assigned banks, mortgage companies to renegotiate these ARM's into something affordable for these people, then if they don't pay, by all means foreclose.

Alot of this stems from people being strapped by these ARM's they were sold.

This will turn a large quantity of these into a positive cash flow instead of a cash drain of attorney fees on foreclosing.

If there could be a saving of 1 million mortgages and you converted those to fixed rate and pay an average of $1500.00 per month that would create an instant positive of $1,500,000,000.00 per month (1 1/2 billion per month) and I would think in reality it would bring in more, it would help stabilize residential real estate and also create a huge positive attitude.

Since the Govt is now in a business and business is about a positive cash flow that is a good start on the consumer level.

The government or the FED? Don't confuse the two.

The FED has no reason to give a shit about your or my well being.

They can generate money out of thin air, devalue our savings, and trade that fake money for real, physical property. Why would they want to change this arrangement?

The government or the FED? Don't confuse the two.

The FED has no reason to give a shit about your or my well being.

They can generate money out of thin air, devalue our savings, and trade that fake money for real, physical property. Why would they want to change this arrangement?

The Govt, the fed got the Govt into business now!

Also Check that on 1 million foreclosures, it actually exceeds 2 million so double the revenue.

The Govt, the fed got the Govt into business now!

Also Check that on 1 million foreclosures, it actually exceeds 2 million so double the revenue.

Those 2 Million are just what has been foreclosed on up until now. There's a bunch more waiting in the wings ready to fall.

What I don't understand is why did those Freddie, Fannie and AIG all go bankrupt at one time?

What triggered that?

Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and AIG all owned the mortgages to a massive number of homes in the country. When their mortgages are foreclosed on, they still have the debt of the homes - and they can't sell the homes since the market is in decline. When you have more foreclosed homes than good mortgages, the interest from the good mortgages can't cover the difference - and the banks fail. These are just three of what will probably be thousands of financial organizations that fail (either disappear, or are bought out by the government or another company). Lehman Brothers was another one. And there are many more we haven't heard of because they were smaller institutions.

Think about the last time banks failed this much, and the repercussions the country faced immediately following and for decades to come. It is extremely possible this will end up being as bad as the Great Depression. Hell, Lehman Brothers actually survived the Great Depression, but this was too much for them.

The number of folks having POD self-storage units showing up in their driveways lately in the high-end areas of my mail route is testament that there is pain being felt by those in my area.

Homes have been for sale for as long as 18 months on my route, and the only reason I can see that they have not been purchased is that they were bought at ridiculously inflated prices, and the owners can only go so low.

I have also had homes seemingly abandoned and sitting empty while the varied agencies and institutions sort out the mess; $750k to $1 million homes sitting empty for six months to a year is sad, with the high number of homeless folks sleeping under cardboard.

And, they continue to build new ones in the same neighborhoods. :confused:

I am currently living in a home unable to pay the mortgage. Trying to short sell it rather then let it forclose :( It is pretty bad here in California, as it is pretty much everywhere.

The sad thing is, I put $500,000 down and got a loan for 1.3 mil, and the house now is valued at around 1.3 million. It is even hard to get that from a perspective buyer right now. To think, I could have moved out of California, and bought a house that is even bigger in another state for just the amount I put down, instead of taking out a loan on this beast. :(

I am currently living in a home unable to pay the mortgage. Trying to short sell it rather then let it forclose :( It is pretty bad here in California, as it is pretty much everywhere.

The sad thing is, I put $500,000 down and got a loan for 1.3 mil, and the house now is valued at around 1.3 million. It is even hard to get that from a perspective buyer right now. To think, I could have moved out of California, and bought a house that is even bigger in another state for just the amount I put down, instead of taking out a loan on this beast. :(

There are many homes on my route with 3 acre lots, with wooded area abutting the back (think deer, fox, hawks and eagles), 15 years old or newer, that could have been purchased with your down payment.

Unfortunately, a large percentage of those suffering in this area are, like you, self-employed or owners of their own small business. It is one thing to have a steady job with a regular income that you can do your budget and money planning with; I can not imagine having to also include all the incidental costs of maintaining a business and it's related highs and lows and dependence on others having money to spend on whatever product you are selling. It is going to be lean times for many over the next several years, I fear.

I hope you can get out of that housing situation in decent shape.

Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and AIG all owned the mortgages to a massive number of homes in the country. When their mortgages are foreclosed on, they still have the debt of the homes - and they can't sell the homes since the market is in decline. When you have more foreclosed homes than good mortgages, the interest from the good mortgages can't cover the difference - and the banks fail. These are just three of what will probably be thousands of financial organizations that fail (either disappear, or are bought out by the government or another company). Lehman Brothers was another one. And there are many more we haven't heard of because they were smaller institutions.

That's actually a bit orthogonal to the recent issue.

Actual lending banks lose very little real money on a foreclosure. Especially in times like these, getting the real estate from a foreclosure can be preferable to them anyway.

There's this perception that the bank is somehow sending its own deposits out to lend you money to buy a house, but that isn't the case at all. Not in our fucked up fractional reserve system.

AIG would have failed just because their credit got downgraded two notches and they had to come up with cash to pay down their lines of credit immediately. As with Lehman, it was more a snowballing effect of doubt that brought them down than anything.

The banks that wrote those mortgages sold those mortgages to places like Lehman bros and AIG, those places bought loans that were damn near unserviceable and the banks that wrote them knew they were.

But the banks didn't give a shit because they knew they were going to sell them once they wrote them.

Then the Lehman's and AIG's would sell them and it was a vicious cycle with the risk being that the place that had the most risk was the place that was holding the paper when all this, very predictably, happened.

What you essentially witnessed was the biggest fucking ponzi scheme ever and the banks, AIG's and Lehman's of the world are ALL equally complicit.

These places figure that with politicians in their pockets and with the lobbyists paying off for them they can walk away saved by the average american, but the kicker will be that they ABSOLUTELY will fuck us, the average american, and we'll have no recourse because they'll sell it as "There's going to be some casualties" and we cant afford AIG or these banks to be the casualties. While stupid asses buy into that the FUNDAMENTALS of the economy will pay.

This whole thing was so fucking engineered it's not funny, ever wonder why the bankruptcy laws were changed? I mean the real reason why.

And as far as Paulson goes, that guy's nicname is Mr. Wall Street, he's going to protect his friends and his own assets long before he does anything for the people.

rover what is your take on why the bankruptcy laws were changed?

rover what is your take on why the bankruptcy laws were changed?


Because it made it more difficult for the bankruptcy filer, in particular the average American, to hold onto their assets: Specifically real estate assets which gave these mortgage holders more incentive to forclose and in alot of cases force a foreclosure which meant they converted a risky piece of paper into something real. It got a risk off of their books and, they thought, would replace it with an asset.

Only problem is, as with most schemes, they didn't see a housing bubble burst as a real possibility.

These places just have absolutely no concept that average Americans actually matter to having a sound economy, but that requires a long term outlook and I don't think that "long term" exists in the vocabulary any more.

Ah so if you had to file bankruptcy they don't let you keep all your items.... so the bank gets them.

It did seem a little too easy to file bankruptcy though (prior to the change). I have seen relatives (in-laws) do it several times and still have about the same amount of stuff and money as prior to bankruptcy....

I was pretty unclear on the whole situation but this thread has really helped me. Thanks :)

Ah so if you had to file bankruptcy they don't let you keep all your items.... so the bank gets them.

It did seem a little too easy to file bankruptcy though (prior to the change). I have seen relatives (in-laws) do it several times and still have about the same amount of stuff and money as prior to bankruptcy....

I was pretty unclear on the whole situation but this thread has really helped me. Thanks :)

There were people who took advantage of the bankruptcy laws in the past, but it was somewhere in the 1/2 of 1% who filed, remember, the number one cause of bankruptcy since we have gone to the republican version of healthcare has in fact been medical bills not credit card bills as the banks would have you believe and also, the banks don't eat the credit card fraud the merchants do.