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View Full Version : Friedman Friday.. (yes I know.. again)


Lleauric
08-04-2006, 10:22 AM
Since I pay for it.. figured Id share when he has a good article..

Todays is a great one

ugust 4, 2006 Op-Ed Columnist
Time for Plan B

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/thomaslfriedman/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
It is now obvious that we are not midwifing democracy in Iraq. We are baby-sitting a civil war.

When our top commander in Iraq, Gen. John Abizaid, tells a Senate Committee, as he did yesterday, that “the sectarian violence is probably as bad as I’ve seen it,” it means that three years of efforts to democratize Iraq are not working. That means “staying the course” is pointless, and it’s time to start thinking about Plan B — how we might disengage with the least damage possible.

It seemed to me over the last three years that, even with all the Bush team’s missteps, we had to give our Iraqi partners a chance to produce a transitional government, then write a constitution, then hold an election and then, finally, put together their first elected cabinet. But now they have done all of that — and the situation has only worsened.

The Sunni jihadists and Baathists are as dedicated as ever to making this U.S.-Iraqi democracy initiative fail. That, and the runaway sectarian violence resulting from having too few U.S. troops and allowing a militia culture to become embedded, have made Iraq a lawless mess.

Yes, I believe it was and remains hugely important to try to partner with Iraqis to create one good example in the heart of the Arab world of a decent, progressive state, where the politics of fear and tribalism do not reign — the politics that has produced all the pathologies of unemployment, religious intolerance and repression that make the Middle East so dangerous to itself and others.

But the administration now has to admit what anyone — including myself — who believed in the importance of getting Iraq right has to admit: Whether for Bush reasons or Arab reasons, it is not happening, and we can’t throw more good lives after good lives.

Since the Bush team never gave us a Plan A for Iraq, it at least owes us a Plan B. It’s not easy. Here are my first thoughts about a Plan B and some of the implications.

I think we need to try a last-ditch Bosnia-like peace conference that would bring together all of Iraq’s factions and neighbors. Just as Bosnia could be solved only by an international peace force and the Dayton conference — involving Russia, Europe and the U.S., the powers most affected by Bosnia’s implosion — the civil war in Iraq can be quelled only by a coalition of those most affected by Iraq’s implosion: the U.S., Russia, Europe, Japan, India, China, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Syria and Jordan. As in Bosnia, any solution will have to be some form of federalism, a division of oil wealth and policing by an international force, where needed.

For such a conference to come about, though, the U.S. would probably need to declare its intention to leave. Iraqis, other Arabs, Europeans and Chinese will get serious about helping to salvage Iraq only if they believe we are leaving and it will damage their interests.

What would be the consequences of leaving without such a last-ditch peace effort, or if it just fails? Iraq could erupt into a much wider civil war, drawing in its neighbors. Or, Iraqis might stare into this abyss and actually come to terms with each other on their own. Our presence may be part of the problem. It’s hard to know.

If Iraq opts for all-out civil war, its two million barrels a day will be off the market and oil could go above $100 a barrel. (That would, however, spur more investment in alternative fuels that could one day make us independent of this volatile region.)

Some fear that Iran will be the winner. But will it? Once we are out of Iraq, Iran will have to manage the boiling pot next door. That will be a huge problem for Iran. The historical enmity toward Iran by Iraqi Arabs — enmity temporarily focused on us — will re-emerge. And Iran will also have to compete with its ally Syria for influence in Iraq.

Yes, the best way to contain Iran would have been to produce a real Shiite-led democracy in Iraq, exposing the phony one in Tehran. But second best is leaving Iraq. Because the worst option — the one Iran loves — is for us to stay in Iraq, bleeding, and in easy range to be hit by Iran if we strike its nukes.

Finally, the war in Iraq has so divided us at home and abroad that leaving, while bringing other problems, might also make it easier to build coalitions to deal with post-U.S. Iraq, Iran, Hezbollah and Syria. All these problems are connected. We need to deal with Iran and Syria, but from a position of strength — and that requires a broad coalition.

The longer we maintain a unilateral failing strategy in Iraq, the harder it will be to build such a coalition, and the stronger the enemies of freedom will become.

Ibudin
08-04-2006, 10:35 AM
Good read.

Or, Iraqis might stare into this abyss and actually come to terms with each other on their own. Our presence may be part of the problem. It’s hard to know.

Isn't this some what that happened in Vietnam. We left and they worked it out in the end? I not a 100 percent sure but something tells me something along those lines happened.

akipt
08-04-2006, 10:38 AM
Isn't this some what that happened in Vietnam. We left and they worked it out in the end?Only 20 million people died for it to be worked out... a small price to pay for sure.

Ailwon
08-04-2006, 11:01 AM
20 million?? Source?

I know you're just making a point but that seems really high like 3 or four times high:

http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html

The Hanoi government revealed on April 4 that the true civilian casualties of the Vietnam War were 2,000,000 in the north, and 2,000,000 in the south. Military casualties were 1.1 million killed and 600,000 wounded in 21 years of war. These figures were deliberately falsified during the war by the North Vietnamese Communists to avoid demoralizing the population.

However it's a good point...the worst thing that could happen there is an all out civil war.

Ibudin
08-04-2006, 11:01 AM
How many died after US left vietnam? I have no clue and I know someone on this forum probably knows.

Lleauric
08-04-2006, 11:13 AM
Thing about Vietnam... it never really should have been our war. We made massive errors in judgement there.

Ive said it before, the Vietnamese people didnt want to be Chinese Communists any more than they wanted to be American Capitalists. The one thing that they craved was complete and total independence. The French tried to hold on too long, had they allowed for a peaceful transition, none of this would have ever happened.

The only people that really wanted America in the end seemed to be landowners class that owned vast tracts of land which they dolled out in a feudal like system.

akipt
08-04-2006, 11:26 AM
Yeah drop the zero, sorry.

Vietnam was doomed as soon as we installed a foreign Christian as their head of state.

Sixee
08-04-2006, 01:34 PM
This isn't a civil war.
By definition a civil war is 2 opposing factions fighting over who will lead the country.
What we are seeing in Iraq is an insurgency. They aren't fighting over who will lead the country, they are fighting to stop the government from being put into place altogether.
If we leave, then it will become a civil war.

Ailwon
08-04-2006, 02:11 PM
they are fighting to stop the government from being put into place altogether.

...and put in their own...making it a civil war. It's really a matter of scale. This admin doesn't want "civil war" used for political reasons. I don't wouldn't call it a full civil war, yet...and I think it isn't mainly because of our presence. The question is how long keep we keep it under control.

Lleauric
08-04-2006, 03:48 PM
According to Donald Rumsfeld from 1861-1865 the United States "experienced high levels of sectarian violence"

Bylimet Spiritwalker
08-04-2006, 04:15 PM
Isn't this some what that happened in Vietnam. We left and they worked it out in the end? I not a 100 percent sure but something tells me something along those lines happened.

No.

We left VietNam, and the North Vietnamese completed their quest of conquering South VietNam thereby uniting the country under one rule, that being Communist. It was not "worked out"; it was one side winning and the other losing. I am sure the South Vietnamese who were sent to the re-education camps did not see it as being "worked out".

In Iraq, we have the once empowered Sunni's and the formerly oppressed Shiite's fighting for what little power is available, and the only thing preventing a wider conflict is our presence. Note that the Kurds are keeping their distance from these conflicts as much as possible while solidifying their positions in the North; I do not expect it to be long before the Kurds announce their intent to petition the U.N. for a separate state composed mostly of the territory they occupy and including the rich oil field they have pretty much secured.

If we leave Iraq, violence will increase and Iran will use the escalating conflict as justification for moving in it's own troops to "protect" it's own borders. We have created a beautiful example of a Catch-22.

Thormir
08-04-2006, 04:20 PM
I do not expect it to be long before the Kurds announce their intent to petition the U.N. for a separate state composed mostly of the territory they occupy and including the rich oil field they have pretty much secured.
Watch Turkey's spaz attack when this happens.

Ailwon
08-04-2006, 05:36 PM
Watch Turkey's spaz attack when this happens.

Hasn't Turkey pretty much said they will invade and take over northern Iraq if the Kurds try to establish an independant state there?

Nydia Ywalmoriel
08-04-2006, 07:16 PM
I seem to recall hearing that too, Ailwon. Why the Turks have had a decades-old policy of depriving, oppressing, and trying to destroy by negation the Kurds while at the same time preventing them from just seceding and forming their own state (the first Kurdish woman elected to Parliament was quickly sentenced to 15 years in prison for "separatist speech") is a bit of a mystery to me, but I suspect has to do with the strategic position and resources on traditionally Kurdish lands and an irrational belief that they 'own' the Kurds. The Kurdish language was illegal until 1991, Kurds still aren't listed as an ethnic minority on Turkish censuses, and any talk of Kurdish nationalism is grounds for imprisonment. Needless to say, this has fostered the birth of a radical separatist party in the south analogous to that of the Zapatistas in southern Mexico (the PKK) which is engaged in a more or less continuous struggle with the army for control of the villages in that part of the country. Turkey would certainly be agitated, to say the least, should a Kurdish separatist movement in Iraq gain serious international traction, because it would energize/agitate their own Kurds...

Regards,
Nydia

Bylimet Spiritwalker
08-04-2006, 07:52 PM
Yes, the Turks vs Kurds as the Arab vs. Jew as the Sunni vs Shiite, and so on and so on and so on.....

No matter what the outcome(s) over the next ten to twenty years, there will remain a quagmire in the Middle East, with the hatred of generations upon generations still controlling people's actions in the present and future.:(