Son of a bitch is backed into a corner so he goes and makes it legal for illegal/undocumented immigrants to get drivers licenses.

Might as well sign Cali back over to Mexico and just speed up the inevitable.

if there was any question about recalling him...its a no brainer now

this guy is a fucken moron, he knows hes gonna get recalled so hes doing as much negative things to california as possible. why the fuck would you give any illegal immigrant ANYTHING except a swift kick in the ass back to their fucken countries.

I think his gardener was going to lose his truck, so he signed the bill. Javier does a great job on the Roses at the Governor's Mansion.

hes just doing the same spoiled little bitch things that Clinton did before he left. "Fuck you America! Im the king of the world!" is what i hear from people like that.

He's trying to get the spanish speaking voters to vote no on the recall.

Heh. Spanish speaking voters. He is giving illeagal migrant workers and other we....err folks liscenses. if he wants em to vote he should make em citizens.

"give any illegal immigrant ANYTHING except a swift kick in the ass back to their fucken countries. "

You're a fucking moron. Immigrants drive the economy here in the US. But being that you all seem to be Right Wing rejects, you wouldn't know anything about economics. And as for what Clinton did when he left. As I recall he balanced the budget. Get a fucking clue you moron. Clinton stood atop the greatest economy ever.

Immigrants drive the economy here in the US


give any illegal immigrant ANYTHING except a swift kick in the ass

thank you kein, apparently fucken morons cant read on these boards..

Now if only Gov. Davis would give Kein that Pegasus Feather Cloak.....

the rat bastard still wouldnt get my vote, gogo Arnold!

Besides, dont need the cloak anymore :)

Can Illegal immigrants even vote? wtf?

If they wan't to come here legally fine. I'd even support making it slightly easier for them to do so. But if they want to sneak across my border, come into my country, demand that I pay for everything in welfare for them, then i got a $.25 Solution for em.

Honestly, whatever his name is might be right about illegal immigrants helping the economy. If stealing welfare, dealing drugs, and mowing lawns helps the market.

I know. there's a bunch of illegal immigrants outside mowing my lawn, collecting 3 welfare checks, and buying drugs with them.

Illegal immigrants are taking up jobs in this country when some non-illegal-e's are jobless and getting welfare themselves. Kick illegal immigrants out and give the jobless their old jobs.

What do yo think the average cost of a trip to the market would be if it wasn't for illegal immigrants. They pick all our fruit and veges. They machine most of the beef and chicken in the nation too. No matter what you say, the food you have eaten today was broght to you by an illegal. The cotton for your shirt on your back was picked by an illegal. Here is a simple explination done by the ACLU:

--------------------------------------------------

BACKGROUND
Blaming immigrants for the nation's woes has long been an American pastime, especially in hard economic times like today. Recently, there has been an upsurge in anti-immigrant sentiment, particularly in areas of the country that host large number of immigrants. Public opinion surveys indicate that the public does draw a distinction between legal and undocumented immigrants, and that the public regards undocumented immigrants with increasing disfavor.

One of the most well-entrenched myths about immigrants is that they steal jobs from American workers, collect an excess of government benefits and in general represent a drain on the economy. According to an August 1993 Field Poll of Californians, 39 percent of respondents agreed that illegal immigrants are "taking jobs away from Californians." But these are all myths that must be refuted to create a more hospitable environment for immigrants' rights.

IN BRIEF


Contrary to popular belief, immigrants do not take away jobs from American workers. Instead, they create new jobs by forming new businesses, spending their incomes on American goods and services, paying taxes and raising the productivity of U.S. businesses. Immigrants are good for the economy, not the other way around.

A U.S. Department of Labor study prepared by the Bush Administration noted that the perception that immigrants take jobs away from American workers is "the most persistent fallacy about immigration in popular thought" because it is based on the mistaken assumption that there is only a fixed number of jobs in the economy.

Experts note that immigrants are blamed for unemployment because Americans can see the jobs immigrants fill but not the jobs they create through productivity, capital formation and demand for goods and services.

Immigrants pay more than $90 billion in taxes every year and receive only $5 billion in welfare. Without their contributions to the public treasury, the economy would suffer enormous losses.
ACLU POLICY
The ACLU recognizes that the U.S., like every country, has the right to control who enters the country and to enforce the integrity of its internationally recognized borders. It also has the right to deport persons in the country who are not authorized to be here. However, the ACLU also believes that the power to exclude and deport must be exercised fairly, humanely and consistent with the constitutional norms of due process and non-discrimination, and believes that the government must comply with the legal and humanitarian principles of international law that bind the United States.

ARGUMENTS, FACTS, QUOTES
In a 1990 American Immigration Institute Survey of prominent economists, four out of five said that immigrants had a favorable impact on economic growth. None said that immigrants had an adverse impact on economic growth.

A 1994 study of unemployment and immigration by Richard Vedder and Lowell Galloway of Ohio University spanning 100 years (from 1891 to 1991) found that higher rates of foreign-born population historically have corresponded to lower unemployment rates. The study found that immigrants expand total output and the demand for labor, tend to be highly productive and promote capital formation through high savings rates.

According to a L.A. Times analysis summarizing the best available research, "Immigrants contribute mightily to the economy, by paying billions in annual taxes, by filling low-wage jobs that keep domestic industry competitive, and by spurring investment and job-creation, revitalizing once-decaying communities. Many social scientists conclude that the newcomers, rather than drain government treasuries, contribute overall far more than they utilize in services." (January 6, 1992).

Studies by the Rand Corporation, the University of Maryland, the Council of Economic Advisors, the National Research Council and the Urban Institute all show that immigrants do not have a negative effect on the earnings and employment opportunities of native-born Americans. A 1989 Department of Labor study found that neither U.S. workers in complementary jobs, nor most minority workers, appear to be adversely affected by immigration.


-------------------------------------------------------

I don't care for Gray Davis. But to make a comment that all illegal immigrants deserve a swift kick in the ass on their way out of our nation is ludricrus and racist. I know your quote probally came from last nights Rush Limbaugh show though.

Personally, I'd rather see a reduction in the rate of illegal immigration. I could care less about the people already here and paying taxes. It probably costs more to hunt them down and ship them back home in legal fee's etc....

spending their incomes on American goods and services, paying taxes

The second they start doing that, instead of spending it on drugs and not paying taxes cause THEY'RE FUCKING ILLEGAL AND NOT REGISTERED, then I'll take back every bad word about illegal immigrants.

Fuckin' hippy.

Illegal immigrants are taking up jobs in this country when some non-illegal-e's are jobless and getting welfare themselves. Kick illegal immigrants out and give the jobless their old jobs.

A-FUCKING-MEN. Keep the U.S. jobs FOR the AMERICANS!

Pssst...Broneb..

ILLEGAL Immigrants.

You seem to keep skipping over the ILLEGAL part...

And let me guess, if we somehow could wave a magic wand and not only stop all illegal immigration this very minute, but magically teleport all illegal immigrants back to their country of origin, you folks who are screaming about illegal immigration would line up to take those lettuce picking and chicken plucking and lawn mowing jobs? Riiiight...

All Gray Davis is doing by allowing illegals to get drivers licenses is giving our these folks a way to legitimately do what they are doing anyway (driving to work) and, more importantly, giving law enforcement (and other agencies) a tool for tracking these folks... It's not going to help him one bit on the recall vote. In fact, it will probably hurt him, as the vast majority of *legal* immigrant residents (the ones who can, you know, vote) want stricter controls on immigration, not more rights and priveleges for them.

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

you folks who are screaming about illegal immigration would line up to take those lettuce picking and chicken plucking and lawn mowing jobs? Riiiight...

Don't feed us this bleeding heart bullshit. There would be plenty of people to replace them.

A-FUCKING-MEN. Keep the U.S. jobs FOR the AMERICANS!

/woot someone agrees with me :)

btw.. wasn't there a guy running for prez last election that wanted to build a 15foot concrete barricade on the Mexican/us boarder? Was it Bucannan? or am i just wayyy off.

It's not going to help him one bit on the recall vote. In fact, it will probably hurt him, as the vast majority of *legal* immigrant residents (the ones who can, you know, vote) want stricter controls on immigration, not more rights and priveleges for them.


That's the entire point of the post Nydia, Davis is pulling a Clinton(presidential pardons anyone?) and using what he knows are his last hours in office to impliment extreme leftist policies that the majority of his constituents would(and are) up in arms over. What's he gonna do, ruin his chances for reelection?

And as for what Clinton did when he left. As I recall he balanced the budget. Get a fucking clue you moron. Clinton stood atop the greatest economy ever.

after 8 years of democratic leadership the economy turned to absolute shit. go look up some figures for clintons last year in office. dumbass.

send them all to euroland!

At any other time I would have no problem with this measure... but with the economy in the toilet and no strategy to make this profitable or even pay for itself, it's a terrible time to implement it.

Partly due to NAFTA, there are already truck drivers coming across from Mexico legally to deliver goods. If this measure made them get a valid California Drivers License as well as allowed recent immigrants not yet made citizens to be tested, it would be gravy.

Ideally, it'll even help to weed out wanted criminals, since they have to bring some proof of who they are. It's just the wrong time to do it and it needs to support itself, not cost the tax payers 40 million a year.

you folks who are screaming about illegal immigration would line up to take those lettuce picking and chicken plucking and lawn mowing jobs? Riiiight...

What do you think highschool drop outs are for?

you can always find the illegal immigrants hanging outside a local dunkin donuts early in the morning waiting for people to pick them up for work... oh yes its true my friend

Clinton stood atop the greatest economy ever.

Yes, he stood there. He did an excellent job of watching it happen.

"What do you think highschool drop outs are for"

Selling drugs and working in IT

I hope everyone bitching about illegal immigration has never broken a law.. such as breaking the speed limit? Because hell, if the best chances for me and my family were to jump a border and do the grunt work in another country, I'd DO IT IN A SECOND. Of course, I'd also club seal pups if it meant the long term survival and welfare of my children would be improved.

As for the immigrants stealing jobs- I bet they are taking jobs that would otherwise go unfilled, due to the paltry wages or horrible working conditions. The fact of the matter is that certain sectors of the workforce are always begging people to apply/join whatever- because they are usualy understaffed- food service comes to mind at once.

What I'm much more concerned with is the outstaffing of IT jobs to *legal* foreign workers who work in the US at a rate of pay considered middle of the road in their home country- or about 1/2 (or less) what I'm paid to do the same job.

"What I'm much more concerned with is the outstaffing of IT jobs to *legal* foreign workers who work in the US at a rate of pay considered middle of the road in their home country- or about 1/2 (or less) what I'm paid to do the same job."

Word. H1B visas = the devil. And for those of you who don't think that companies deliberately use these to 'displace' native workers (whom they'd have to pay more), I managed to catch one of my former employers with the 'smoking gun' on what my friend and I liked to call 'visa laundering' about 10 years ago. Companies who hire noncitizen workers (they especially like those on expiring student visas coming out of graduate school, because these folks tend to be desparate and willing to work for a pittance) to fill high tech positions can do so provided that they show that they were unable to find a 'qualified citizen applicant' to fill the position.

When this employer (in the plastics industry) was bought out by a multinational, I watched them fill the entire R & D department with such folks over a period of about three years. What they would do is this: They'd broadly recruit at the local colleges and find an individual who was on a student visa whom they wanted to hire. Then they'd write an ad for a position that perfectly matched that student's qualifications. *But*, they wouldn't run the ad as they are required to do! These ads would show up internally on one wall of the plant on the day that said individual was there for their final interview, and then taken down immediately afterwards. This is how the company was paying lip service to 'making a good faith effort to hire qualified citizen workers' to fill the positions. One day I walked into my bosses office with a handful of these that I had taken down, Xeroxed, and put back up, and asked him about it. His reply was 'What are you doing with those!' Despite the fact that I had been three times 'Employee of the Month', the company (in particular, my bosses boss, my immediate boss who was a citizen immigrant from Hong Kong was actually quite concerned with the trend as well) began keeping a 'tickler file' on me, lowering my performance ratings (obtained copies of these, too ;) ), and I eventually was forced out of the position.

Corporations who use these tactics are doing so for no other reason than to obtain someone to do the job at the cheapest possible rate. They're entitled to do this of course, but this *isn't* like the poultry processing plants who hire illegals because they can't get anyone else to stand in a humid, stifling room and process dead chickens all day for 5.15 an hour - this does deny US citizens substantial employment. And folks in the IT industry especially who have 10-15 years experience find themselves displaced for no other reason than they have 'priced themselves out of the market' just due to their work experience.

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

"Don't feed us this bleeding heart bullshit. There would be plenty of people to replace them."

I worked for about 10 years in both the plastics and food processing industries while I was an undergraduate and in grad school - and I can tell you that, especially in food processing plants, most citizens won't *touch* these jobs, when they can work in a nice clean safe environment at Wal-Mart or someplace like it for more money. The year that I did temporary contract work as a food bacteriologist was particularly enlightening. At the poultry plant I worked at, line employees got the pleasure of standing in hot, humid processing rooms that were noisy and soaking wet, in heavy clothing and galoshes for ten hours a day, sweeping up chicken guts or hand eviscerating birds that the machine had missed, or in the freezing cold, moving processed chicken into the freezer, for minimum wage. The restaurant food processing plant I worked at was no different, nor was the major salad manufacturer. I can count the number of employees that spoke English working those positions in all three cases on one hand, and *many* of these workers were working on false 'green cards'. There were exceptions; Kraft (a union shop) treats its line employees pretty darned well and pays a better wage - loyalty among its employees is pretty high and it doesn't hire illegals, that I am aware of.

When I was in the plastics industry, the plant (at least when it was independently owned, once it was bought out this changed) made a genuine effort to hire citizens for its line jobs. But again, they had a very difficult time finding citizens who were willing to throw 50-lb bales of rubber on a conveyor belt in the Texas heat all day for 5.75 an hour. Even when they were trying very hard *not* to use illegal labor, I'd guess that a third of the workers were undocumented...

I can't tell you what the answer is here. If you could wave a magic wand and completely halt all illegal immigration and make all the existing undocumented workers disappear, after the economy collapsed, maybe wages would rise in these jobs enough for American citizens to take them. But many, if not most, Americans feel that they are 'too good' for many of the grottier, but necessary, types of work out there...

In any case, I don't think you can demonize Gray Davis for trying to apply a bandaid to a sucking chest wound in this case.

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

A-FUCKING-MEN. Keep the U.S. jobs FOR the AMERICANS!

I assume you can read. I mean, you can write.

Contrary to popular belief, immigrants do not take away jobs from American workers. Instead, they create new jobs by forming new businesses, spending their incomes on American goods and services, paying taxes and raising the productivity of U.S. businesses. Immigrants are good for the economy, not the other way around.

A U.S. Department of Labor study prepared by the Bush Administration noted that the perception that immigrants take jobs away from American workers is "the most persistent fallacy about immigration in popular thought" because it is based on the mistaken assumption that there is only a fixed number of jobs in the economy.

Experts note that immigrants are blamed for unemployment because Americans can see the jobs immigrants fill but not the jobs they create through productivity, capital formation and demand for goods and services.

Immigrants pay more than $90 billion in taxes every year and receive only $5 billion in welfare. Without their contributions to the public treasury, the economy would suffer enormous losses.
ACLU POLICY
The ACLU recognizes that the U.S., like every country, has the right to control who enters the country and to enforce the integrity of its internationally recognized borders. It also has the right to deport persons in the country who are not authorized to be here. However, the ACLU also believes that the power to exclude and deport must be exercised fairly, humanely and consistent with the constitutional norms of due process and non-discrimination, and believes that the government must comply with the legal and humanitarian principles of international law that bind the United States.

ARGUMENTS, FACTS, QUOTES
In a 1990 American Immigration Institute Survey of prominent economists, four out of five said that immigrants had a favorable impact on economic growth. None said that immigrants had an adverse impact on economic growth.

A 1994 study of unemployment and immigration by Richard Vedder and Lowell Galloway of Ohio University spanning 100 years (from 1891 to 1991) found that higher rates of foreign-born population historically have corresponded to lower unemployment rates. The study found that immigrants expand total output and the demand for labor, tend to be highly productive and promote capital formation through high savings rates.

According to a L.A. Times analysis summarizing the best available research, "Immigrants contribute mightily to the economy, by paying billions in annual taxes, by filling low-wage jobs that keep domestic industry competitive, and by spurring investment and job-creation, revitalizing once-decaying communities. Many social scientists conclude that the newcomers, rather than drain government treasuries, contribute overall far more than they utilize in services." (January 6, 1992).

Studies by the Rand Corporation, the University of Maryland, the Council of Economic Advisors, the National Research Council and the Urban Institute all show that immigrants do not have a negative effect on the earnings and employment opportunities of native-born Americans. A 1989 Department of Labor study found that neither U.S. workers in complementary jobs, nor most minority workers, appear to be adversely affected by immigration.

Immigration creates jobs.

Don't feed us this bleeding heart bullshit. There would be plenty of people to replace them.

Prove it.

What I'm much more concerned with is the outstaffing of IT jobs to *legal* foreign workers who work in the US at a rate of pay considered middle of the road in their home country- or about 1/2 (or less) what I'm paid to do the same job.

My solution is to be more than twice as good as that foreign worker.

If I'm not, I don't deserve my salary.

Do you believe in the free market? If you do, then it is your duty to compete, fairly, with people from all over the world.

You can push for more level regulation (like, I dunno, a world-wide greenhouse gas treaty), but the bottom line is: if you aren't twice as good as someone else, you don't deserve twice as much money. Anything else is basically government welfare and subsidies.

boo fucking hoo!

it isnt a problem until illegals start taking your geek jobs eh? bottom line is they are more of a drain on the systems than a benefit. they send a good portion of their earnings back to their families in the shithole they came from and tap into every social program available to them. whether its health care (for their 40 fucking kids), housing assistance, or welfare, they can and do take advantage of these systems. they give fake names fake social security cards and fake addresses to agencies run by people who turn a blind eye to the activity because its in their best interests to show how many needy people get their help and thus justify their existence.

i for one would be more than happy to pay an extra 10 or 15 cents per avocado or artichoke or pound of hamburger if i didnt have to put up with all the other bullshit that comes with these criminals. you ever been run into by a drunk illegal driving their 200 dollar pickup home from the bar? insurance? rofl!

yes americans would probably fill the jobs the illegals currently hold and yes it might cost you a few extra bucks a week in retail costs but jesus christ its worth it.

My solution is to be more than twice as good as that foreign worker.

If I'm not, I don't deserve my salary.

Do you believe in the free market? If you do, then it is your duty to compete, fairly, with people from all over the world

I'll compete fairly. I don't think you read what an H1B visa is all about. H1B visas are for instances where NOBODY living in the US could be found to do the job. There used to be a very small number of them, now I think the number is unlimited. Using crooked hiring practices as listed in Nydia's example above allows them to bypass offering a job to someone who might be qualified for the work any chance at getting the job. This is not about free market- it is about limiting the market to those who will take less money to do the same work.

You also neglect the responsibility of companies- saying that the only rule they must follow is the rule and responsiblity of the bottom line is short sighted.. Firing someone who might have spent 10 years with the company, knows all of the secrets, is highly productive and loyal and then hiring someone with an H1B visa who will take less money simply to improve the bottom line is great for the short term, I'm sure, but may have long term consequenses. At the very least it sends a message to the other workers there that they have no future. Why should they be loyal and (perhaps) not sell company secrets for a profit if they can? The legality of this isn't really a deterrent to some- the possibility of losing long term income, benefits and job security if they are caught is what may stop them.

KMA1234, you're a fucking idiot.

it isnt a problem until illegals start taking your geek jobs eh?

As best as I can tell, no "Illegal" as you call them would pass the security and background check where I work, which, having taken both, is about as difficult as that given by the New York State Police.

However, certain companies have decided it is better for the shareholders' profits if they bottom feed on LEGAL workers from other countries. These workers are not citizens and in many cases, have no desire to immigrate to this country or to revoke citizenship in their native country. Why? That would mean they'd be ineligible for an H1B visa and would have to be payed a wage based on the economic standards of this country, not their own- in other words, they'd loose their job.

This above argument does not even go into the taxes lost because they are not citizens.

i sleep much better at night knowing that you completely and totally diagree with everything i say you stupid bastard.

my point was, others don't seem to have a problem with illegal immigrants in the US because they are filling jobs that need to be filled because they would never do that kinda work themselves so they wouldnt ever have to compete for the job. typical narrow minded self centeredness. as long as it doesnt effect me and what i want it doesnt matter.

the work visa's seem to be a fairly well abused grey area that seems to be allowing people from other countries to take jobs YOU ARE COMPETEING for, away from you and therefore you ARE concerned about it because you can relate to it in a much more personal and real way.

just because you would never pick the lettuce the illegals pick doesnt mean it isnt a problem everyone should be concerned about, and especially californians.

Self centered, guilty as charged.

Still, you've yet to offer any real argument, you've just been offering some criticizm of others.

My idea? Create (or increase the number of) work Visas allowed for agricultural or food processing work (like gutting those chickens) and make them easy to get. However, monitor them very closely and limit them to reasonable numbers.

remove the incentives. don't make me pay for the housing and hospital care for people that refuse to participate in the same system. if they could live off the paltry wages they are paid (and pay their taxes) without sucking resources from other americans to supliment their lifestyles they would not be flocking to this country.

the abuse of the work visa program is just as wrong. but to show indiffernce to the rampant illegal immigration problem in the same post is irresponsible.

I never claimed indifference, myself. I just said I was more concerned with with H1B issue- as you stated, it is closer to home, and every bit as damaging as the problem of illegal immigration- it is just not as widespread or as well known.

1. Being able to pay a couple of million dollars to get 1.4 million people to recall their government (and cost Californians 66 million dollars to do a new re-election) is disruptive and complete bullshit. You think you could get 1.4 million signatures of people who didn't like the current person running...governor...president...whatever? This is a stupid rule that is easily abusable by anyone with the power and money to do it.

2. You can not collect welfare if you are not legal. You might be able to get some emergency service at a hospital, but that's about it. Without a social security number you get nothing...at least here in Texas. I doubt it's different in any other state.

3. Do you really want to be doing the jobs that illegal immigrants do here? Mowing grass is cushy work for a lot of them. Roofing in the summer time? Construction...any time...rain or shine. Most other businesses will not even hire you without a state issued ID card and a social security number. I doubt the California issued card would allow illegal immigrants to get jobs they wouldn't have been able to get if they weren't illegal. Illegal immigrants aren't taking the office jobs...the educated jobs...the decent paying jobs. If you plan to live your life in a sea of $6/hour jobs, then yeah...you might wanna be worried about illegal immigrants taking away your job opportunities. I'd be more concerned about laws like Cafta/Nafta which were started in the Clinton years (Nafta) and being perpetuated in the GDub years (Cafta) where it will be MUCH MUCH easier to ship our jobs to other countries where workers make $10/day vs $10/hour.

Bitching about illegal aliens taking our jobs away is pathetic.

rofl what color is the sky in your world?!

illegal immigrants can and DO receive social services thru the use of fake and/or forged social security cards and other forms of ID and yes employers look the other way when it comes to following up on the identifications. next thing you're gonna tell me is that under age kids dont drink cuz they get carded for everything. dipshit. jesus, seriously. don't be so naive.

rofl what color is the sky in your world?!

"illegal immigrants can and DO receive social services thru the use of fake and/or forged social security cards and other forms of ID and yes employers look the other way when it comes to following up on the identifications."

I don't buy that a government office can't tell a real SS card vs a faked one...or a real state ID vs a fake one. If they can't then they have a problem to fix that has nothing to do with illegal aliens.

"next thing you're gonna tell me is that under age kids dont drink cuz they get carded for everything. dipshit. jesus, seriously."

In my experience kids got alcohol in places where they weren't carded...not where they presented a fake ID. Who the fuck is fooled by a fake ID nowadays? I have never actually MET someone who has a fake ID that has actually fooled anyone...maybe I just don't go to the right places. I just did an impromptu discussion during lunch about this to find out the experiences about fake id's from the folks I work with. One guy who goes to a LOT of bars has never actually seen a fake ID get some alcohol. Some said they knew folks who used ID's from older siblings. This is hardly the same as getting faked ID and getting alcohol. I think you've watched too many movies from the 70's and 80's...spy movies and party movies. This is also very different from actually fooling a government office that can check the authenticity of ID by sight and by government databases. I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to do this...I'm just saying I am highly skeptical that this is the problem that people like you like to make it out to be.

"don't be so naive."

Don't be a sheep and believe illegals are stealing your jobs because someone told you so.

I don't buy that a government office can't tell a real SS card vs a faked one...

A real social security card is a piece of cardboard with a blue logo and text that looks like it's from an old typewriter. Even I could fake one of them, let alone some of the graphics jockeys around here who are experienced at making sigs, etc.

ahhh. the good ol' "LALALALALLAIMNOTLISTENINGTOYOU" excuse. wtg. because you don't believe it exists doesnt make it so.

A real social security card is a piece of cardboard with a blue logo and text that looks like it's from an old typewriter. Even I could fake one of them, let alone some of the graphics jockeys around here who are experienced at making sigs, etc.

You think this is all they need to get welfare? You have to have matching documentation. If every single illegal immigrant in this society can get birth certificates, state ID's, and social security cards with the pittance they make in low pay jobs...then it seems like we should all have heard of places to get them. Hell...the lucrative under 21 market should be overflowing with these things. The *fact* is that unless your experiences are significantly different than mine, our office's, and the other folks I know (including the various possibly illegal aliens I have worked with doing some construction work)...this is a bullshit issue that people like to bring up to support their beliefs that have no proven statistics. Take a poll of people you know...how many of them have ever successfully used a fake ID

ahhh. the good ol' "LALALALALLAIMNOTLISTENINGTOYOU" excuse. wtg. because you don't believe it exists doesnt make it so.

I'm surprised you can hear me over your bleeting...

i believe you are a flaming homosexual in real life. it must be true. i believe it.

how many illegal immigrants do you know personally? ask em if there is any ID fraud and social services fraud goin on in the community.

RL n00bs are fun to watch. keep posting plz.

All I hear is bleeting...however...sure, improptu poll. How many who have read this have ever actually seen someone use a faked ID (not someone else's ID) and do something like get alcohol or get a job (much less try to pass it off at a government office)...and how successful were they? Would their ID have fooled you?

Seeing as I've worked construction, HVAC, roofing, and I live in the south Texas area...I've probably met a few people who were illegal aliens...you?

The facts about ID theft is that criminal damages *ARE* in the billions according to recent studies. However, all of these damages that I could look up are typically because systems are abused that *do not* physically check your ID or someone is not doing their job and actually checking ID's. Soon the point should be relatively moot as Homeland security takes over and starts implimenting even more rigorous checks on real and fake ID's. I'm sure people will still be bitching about illegals collecting welfare no matter how good ID verification methods are. The funny part is that *IF* they are using fake ID...this actually HELPS YOU OUT if they are working (typically if a job requires ID then they will more than likely be taking out taxes). It means that money is being taken out of their checks and deposited into the various tax collection coffers and the alien is not going to be getting that back...at least directly.

You'd actually have had more ground to stand and bitch if you'd have complained about the main drain of resources caused by illegal aliens...the detention and deportation of illegals which cost California alone $615m in 1999. That number is going up as the Department of Homeland Security has upped their efforts to identify and remove people who are not here legally due to 9/11 security concerns.

1. I said social security cards were easy to make. That's all I said.


how many of them have ever successfully used a fake ID

2. Hundreds - and many more that I don't know. Someone in the art department at my university specialized in making both student ID's and driver's licenses. I imagine there are similar people wherever there are thousands of 19 and 20 year olds trying to get into bars. I had a fake student ID that I had to make a minute tear in because I couldn't tell the difference.

In addition, until 9/11, you rarely needed to present ID's to get a job in my experience. My current (outsource) employer now requires it. I said "I did not know that this was required, and did not bring my identification with me" and haven't had any problems.

My jobs from Astroworld to British Petroleum have always required photocopies of my ID/Social Security card (although, I doubt they care enough to look to see if they are fake). The only jobs that have not required ID are jobs you associate with illegal aliens such as contruction, roofing, air conditioning...etc. The fines from the government are pretty stiff if they bust your business hiring illegal immigrants...not a lot of established operations care to run that risk.

I would be curious how many of those ID's were successfully passed off as the real thing. It's not hard to buy credit card blanks and a printer and make your own...they could possibly fool a bartender or something, but I'm curious what the real statistics for actually gaining some sort of government benefit with a fake ID *REALLY* are.

Additionally, I am going to re-iterate...if someone has successfully managed to pass off fake ID in a situation like this, it's either due to criminal intent by the person accepting the ID...or due to their ignorance...it's not due to the current system. In the future, this will be even more of a non-issue as cards will become harder and harder to fake due to the information stored in the magnetic stripe (such as fingerprint info). All the current methods I can find on making fake ID cards do not include faking the info in the magnetic stripe. I would also like to add that a couple of months ago, I actually went to a bar that SWIPED MY STATE ID CARD to verify its authenticity...expect this to become more and more common.

Holy crap Lyrik, you're from South Texas? Laredo here, and I guess you could say that I see a few illegal immigrants about every day (my back yard faces the Rio Grande, and the green and white Border Patrol trucks, which set up surveillance back here daily, have worn permanent ruts in the grass behind my house :) ). I even have kids who come across (from Nuevo Laredo) on a daily basis to attend my classes...

The US - Mexican border isn't this nice clean line of separation that you folks who live outside the border zone seem to think it is. In addition to the tide of illegal immigrants, all along the border, folks commute back and forth legally *daily* to do work on the opposite side, have family on both sides of the border, and there are 'colonias' (makeshift cities) all over south Texas in the border zone of illegal and legal immigrants that slowly, in a crystallization-like fashion, become legitimized, getting water and power and eventually legitimate town governments as the residents begin to obtain permanent resident status etc...

In fact, I think it's fair to say that Laredo wouldn't exist, per se, without its life support system to the south. Our rather large shopping mall, for example, is called the 'Mall del Norte' (not, say, the South Texas Mall), this city floats or sinks on Mexican cash, and every time the peso drops vs the dollar, the town shudders.

I don't know exactly where I was going with this, except to say that, in most border towns in the Southwest, both illegals and Mexican nationals who are working here legally contribute *far* more to the economy of the regions in question than they consume in services...

Do we continue to need those green trucks patrolling behind my house every night, and the checkpoints along all the highways heading into the interior of Texas from here? You betcha. But don't be so quick to demonize illegals and their effects on the economy, because it's far more complicated than you think...

And Lyrik, poke me in game sometime :) . Faervas and I would love to meet you for dinner, if we could persuade you to meet us someplace within, say, a 3 hour drive... ;)

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

sad. if it doesn't exist in your personal experience, it cant possibly be a problem. you must live in taino's world. well at least you don't lose any sleep thinking before you go to bed.

i know several people that are in this country illegally, that go from one job to the next with fake identification and spend two or three months working and sending their pay checks back to mexico until the paper work falls through and they get fired and then they do it all over again. the hotel industry is full of that. so is the construction business. don't be so naive lyrik.

i never said the ONLY reason im against illegal immigration is because of employment/unemployment. there are many many many reasons illegal immigratiopn hurts this country more than it helps. even you, someone who's intelligence id equate to a farm animal, can come up with em. so far all i've heard you use to defend illegal immigration is the fact that nobody wants to work for those wages doing those jobs. im sure the asians in the shoe factories will appreciate the sympathy that statement shows. maybe if we start making shackles and abuse common in the work place we can find enough jobs for everyone on the planet. logic? heard of it? get some quick before yours is used against you again.

Better than faked ID is no ID.

Emergency rooms have to take all-comers. They can't just ask all the brown skinned people for two forms of ID. That's what we call discrimination.

Kidney failing? Get to the US and go into an emergency room.

I live in central Phoenix and I work in Healthcare. I see it every day. Indigent care closed at least one downtown hospital.