Good job Sharon. I've never seen so much fuel added to the fire since the US invaded Iraq.
There was a time when I infact supported Israel, me, liberalite and euroscum I may be. I actually supported their plight to secure their country.
To be thrown in to the cesspool which, unfortunately, is the Middle East, and then to be gang-banged by half the Arab nations in a war shorter than Cris0's penis, and to actually come out kicking ass and gaining large territories which left everyone on the brink of laughter.. well, bravo. THAT is defending yourself (take note, Akipt).

But I just can't do it now. Enough is enough. They've made their point, so why not haul ass out of the Occupied Territories? The Arab nations don't want them to be there, the Israel's don't want to be dumped there amid neighbours who wish to burn their houses down and kill them. The only people who want Israel to claim these Lands are Sharon and the other Hawk's on his cabinet.
But.. they have some right. They were attacked, they fought back, they claimed. OK, I can see the argument there. Mayhaps I don't agree with permanent (and illegal) settlement, but OK, I know where Sharon is coming from.
But then there's the fuel, sprayed on to the raging fire. Reatliation to suicide bombing that even the US would flinch at. Is this how civilized countries act? Kill 5 - 6 innocent people for every innocent Israeli who dies? "Fuck diplomacy, fuck peace, revenge all the way. Kill as many as you can."
Why, why, why would you do this. And why, why, why do we permit it?
The Palestinians need an arse kicking, they need some serious, serious Western pressure. But then, they are the poorest incarnation of a "state" I've ever seen. Scattered, poverty strucken, corrupt, crumbling, occupied... how do you start there?
But then there's the Israel's. Western-friend, "civilized", in much better shape economically, politically, socially... Let's forget the political and diplomatic window-dressing that was the "Road Map to Peace". It was bullshit, and faded in to dust.
Why is nothing being done? The centre-fold of Middle Eastern conflict, embottled in the hatred these two nations emitt to eachother... and it's continuous, but is it hopeless?
Well there may have been hope, a slim slice that survived after Sharon came to power..
So why, oh why, go cruising around in gunships, shooting missles at spiritual leaders?
Not only are the Palestinians now enflamed with bitter revenge, but the entire Arab population has been stirred like a bee's nest (woke up to a nice picture of our boys in Basra being set alight by those nice folks who they "liberated")

The assasination was illegal, bloody, uncivilized and down right fucking stupid.
How - in the name of MY ARSEHOLE - is that going to achieve even remotely to peace and the safety of Israel or the West?

So we're going to stick our nose in the Middle East, once again: OK. I can understand that. Mayhaps I don't agree, once again, but I see the logic beyond the lies of WoMD and the terrorist crap. I can recognize why an honest person - not a scumbag politician - would see the need for Western intervention.
But why Iraq? WHY?! There's a slice of the Middle East that is ripped apart with conflict and chaos, seemingly endless violence and hatred... and we're about 800 miles south east in a country we invaded for reasons which turned out to be as truthful as Kivorn's admin skills (I'll pay for that). But no, this isn't about Iraq. I've sidestepped.

This is about Sharon and the fuel he keeps throwing on the fire. There isn't a country which hasn't condemned the recent actions of Israel, so why allow it to continue? Shouldn't Western efforts and resources start contributing to a solution for political and diplomatic peace and agreement in conflicts such as these, than in a show of invasion and occupation, only to end up leaving and submit a country to even more problems than previous (hello Afghanistan, hello Kosovo).

But perhaps it is all useless. The vicious cycle of hate, retaliation and violence, amid ethnic and religious differences would appear to promote that part of the world as a place no one could help. Both sides want blood in shows of terrorism and uncivilized action, the only difference in being the way it's waged: suicide bomb or gunship missles.
Either way, as always, the innocent are the vicitims.

2 Suicide bombings in Israel this week.
This is the man who organized, formed and encouraged Suicide bombings.

Why isnt Israel allowed to defend itself vs Terrorists. What if there was a very popular man in Northern Ireland, who the people loved and adored. He spent his time organizing and supporting IRA bombings of London. Are you saying your government doenst have the Right to go after him?
Or Spain and the US doesnt have the right to go after Osama?

Oh ya.. I forgot..Some Europeans expect Jews to just stand around and be slaughtered.
"Never Again" is more than just a saying for these people.

LL, to 'go after him' would mean, in my little world - get a permission to arrest him - from a court - and then do all what is needed to grab his arse.

That guy was blind, could not walk a step and was also the only person alive who was able to hold the Hamas down. Yes, he was a or the founding member, but he also was the only person able to control, or if you like, who the Hamas would listen to. Now, there is no one left.

To be frank, Israel murdered this person. They had not even a permission to arrest him - do you call that - Defense against Terrorisms? If so, well, we're all in deep shit, cause we all saw that the major intelligence agencies of this world do make errors - when will they accuse the wrong person to be a 'leading Terrorist, who plans bombing assaults' ..? And then what? Just shrug it off if they killed the wrong guy with 3 rockets from a helicopter?

Sweet, way to go.

Regards - Shosa

Bush actually took this Hamas guy out, so that Kerry would have one less foreign leader rooting for him.

Quit fucking Israel and I doubt they will blow anyone up. Nothing is going to work over there period.

Killing the political (!!) leader of Hamas will result in less attacks against Israel right?
I would not be there for the next couple of months.

Shouldn't Western efforts and resources start contributing to a solution for political and diplomatic peace and agreement in conflicts such as these

Dude, where have you been the last 50 years?

This all boils down the the same argument. "Europe" is perfectly content to "tend their own garden" and hope the problem goes away. How long are we supposed to do that? It's not working. These people will not be mollified.

Yeah, Bush has messed up. But Kerry is already making it clear that he wants a more "European" approach. More bomb sniffing dogs. More "first response" money. Etc.

NONE of which will solve the actual problem. Many of us realize that won't work.

If we pull ALL Westerners out of the Middle East, they won't be happy. Why? Spain used to be under Muslim control. THey'd like to have it back. Turkey used to be the center of the Muslim world. They want it back. As long as we EXIST, they will hate us. We are successful, they are not. We are wealthy, they are poor. We are now the center of knowledge in the world, and they used to be. They do not want peace. The right wing Muslim wackjobs who only read the first half of the Koran want us DEAD. Period.

Whether you like violence or not, the problem will not be solved until organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, Islamic Group, Islamic Jihand, and maybe even parts of the Muslim Brotherhood are GONE.

Police action is not going to do that.

'NONE of which will solve the actual problem. Many of us realize that won't work. '

- I would love to know what fantasy world you are living in to believe the approach right now is working, or will work. Since 2001 you've probably created a billion (give or take a few million) Osama Bin Laden's.
For you, there won't be peace until "xxx terrorist organization is gone" - there won't be peace until EVERY person is gone. 'Cause that is what it will take if you stick to this road.

If the "europe way" is not to shit all over the middle east, blow up and invade half the states, occupy the territory and in the process slaughter more civilians than is probably countable.. then colour me fucking European.

It's far too black and white to picture the situation in Israel as they are bombed, so they retaliate.
In your logic - Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from Israel aggression, right? Both sides kill mass amounts of civilians, or is it because one side can't fight with tanks, so they are naturally deserving of slaughter?

In your logic - Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from Israel aggression, right

Halo, stop being anti-US and start thinking about this. Of course "Palestinians" have the right to defend themselves.

When were they defending themselves? Were they defending themselves when their Arab friends started a war with Israel? Twice?

What do you want? Do you want to move Israel? Stop BITCHING about everything American and PROPOSE something new. Something besides the damn police investigative work that has NOT worked.

You DO understand that, historically, this problem was going on before America was involved, right? These people were hating British imperialism long before they were hating us. But you didn't have to worry about it - you had lots of troops stationed there to hold 'em down. We could go back to those days, I suppose. THe Middle East was a bit more peaceful back then.

>>"Whether you like violence or not, the problem will not be solved until organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, Islamic Group, Islamic Jihand, and maybe even parts of the Muslim Brotherhood are GONE. "

That's part of the truth.
However, movements like these will keep popping up in that region until the countries are democracies. Destroying the present organisations won't really solve the problem.

That sweet "stability" of tyrrany that people keep praising, it is bought in blood. Arab blood. The people of the middle east don't hate westerners anywhere near as much as we tend to believe. Yet they have so many reasons to hate us.

Our governments support many horrible regimes at the expense of the people of these countries, and have been even worse in the past. People remember this.

And are the tyrants grateful? Of course not! They use us for scapegoats, hoping that it will divert the hatred from their own bloodthirsty regimes.

It's a wellknown fact that the 9/11 terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. America's dear sweet strategic ally.

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/030825/greenberg21.gif

Definately.
And I would be the top dog out there, and make the women dress in silk and feed me grapes.
And they would call me "Your Royal Big Penis".
And, and, you would fetch me the morning paper every day, and Akipt would get me my slippers..
Ah. Nice thought. Well done mate.

It's hard to not be Anti-US when more or less every country around the world disagrees with something, and you folks turn around and do the opposite.
"They have WoMD!
"No they don't."
"We'll declare war!"
"No, don't."
"Israel is OK in illegally assasinating spiritual leaders and any nearby civilians in a supposed "war on terror!"
"No it's a bad thing."

You know, I can actually understand about the warmongering I think. You see, you kids are pretty young. What, 250 years now? We've all been around for a few thousand, in one form or another, stabbing eachother to pieces and claiming thrones, fighting wars, creating blood baths. And now we're all tired out, after a few thousand years and a couple of great wars on our doorstep that tore through the continent, we've SLOWLY begun to realise "You know - mayhaps war and violence doesn't really do much good". We learned. Yeah.. took us a while. But we got the jist of the idea.
And then you guys come along, new and fresh, and fancy slicing things up anew to experience what we did.
A few inbred families later, and you got Bush to capitalize on it. Hey, good job.

Me? Anti-US?! Dear lord no.

However, movements like these will keep popping up in that region until the countries are democracies

And Islam basically does not allow democracy. So what's the plan? Parts of the Koran advocates violence. If you choose to follow the first half of the Koran instead of the 2nd half, you're told to convert the infidels or kill them.

so here we are. You wanna get rid of Islam?

Well Akipt, that picture would be very funny if Israeli's didn't surpass the number of innocent deaths in their "retaliations" than the Palestinians do in their attacks.

So I guess.. you were going for... irony? Ok, good.

we've SLOWLY begun to realise

No, you haven't. You don't even understand your own history. This type of appeasement led directly to world war, dude. Who was backing down and appeasing a local dictator in the 30's?

Okay, European way (whats it btw?) won't solve the current problems.
What will?
When the terrorists organizations you mentioned are gone?
Man. Terrorists never ever exist for a long period of time, if they have no serious backup in their homelands.
Terrorists are very very similar to partisans. The only difference partisans defend their homeland when enemy is there, terrorist attacks first. Scary, eh? Sounding similar to what Bush says? Exactly. Muslims do hear the same shit about preventive attack and holy war (= war on terror, we must defend ourself) as you do from you own media, parties, prime ministers and presidents in the western region. They say exactly the same shit.

Please, think about this 'war' as one huge piece, a cultural conflict between muslims and western region. (of course thats not totally true, because not all muslims do support terrorism and not all western citizen supports military action or anything). How can it end?

Basically, west is stronger. Stronger in economy, stronger in military, stronger on secret services. However their decision making is horrible, and they have to fight their inner oppisition too.

Muslims are equipped. They are not well equipped, but they are not going to be directly hit by military forces. They have cells, that cells have guns and bombs, and matter of time they will have nuke. They do not want to battle military. They dont have clear centers like militaries does. They dont need 130.000 active soldier, but like 20/action. 100 destructive attempts = 2000 man. cheap, eh? 1% of their attack succeeds, and boooom, some civils dies. And they every time you bomb a muslim country, every time palestines and others must flee their homes, every time a muslims grows up under circumstances that are similar to the middle age 1 new possible fighter grows who is willing to give his life (!) for a fucking terrorist attack.

You can kill Osama, and their leadership....(you can? we will see, not much success since 2001 or even before) maybe you can destroy the whole organisation (but i seriously doubt it that these can be won with pure military action). So they are gone. and in 1 year, you face a new organisation new leaders, new members. Virtually, you have to kill EVERYONE who is fanatic over there....but thats not possible. its not 100, its not 1000, its not 10000 who is ready to fight for their 'holy war' but millions. (really millions).

You (and under you I mean we, the western countries because NOONE says its only US problem) have to eliminate the reasons why terrorism does exists and have such a huge support. Yes, its harder and cost more money and time than military action, but at least effective in long term.

It is very similar to the world wars. Germany and co sucked hard (austria, hungary, etc.). They were seriously punished after the war and had a country ruined without almost any economy. The 2nd world war came directly from how first ended. If second had ended like the same as first, we would have a third one. But, instead, US and co. created the marshall plan, with large amount of money built up germany, while giving them democracy.
If once you already found the right solution for such 'cases', why do you want to change that?

Agression borns more agression. It starts in with 1assasination, with 1 bombing, we strike back, they strike, we strike, they strike and suddenly 100.000s of soldiers are marching all over the world, and bombs explodes on civilians every day. Thats what you want? The current road goes there.

Thanks for the summary.

Now propose something.

Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the most powerful Shiite cleric in Iraq, urged Muslims to unite against Israel and restore what he said belongs to the Palestinians.

Wonderful. Turn the middle east into a glass factory and be done with it.

Yeah. He's the leader flip-flopping each week on the constitution and UN participation.

They had him on some special news report and bascially the US doesnt do shit unless this guy gives the thumbs up. He has a lot of power in Iraq at the moment.


Ibudin

Quick question Halo.

The gentleman they took out this week. Was he or was he not arrested twice for his crimes against Israel? Was he not released as part of a prisoner exchange only to, both times mind you, run back and start plotting to, and to his glee, kill Israelis, women and children included, again?

You can't turn yellow and turn tail and hope it goes away. Spain will learn this lesson, again, the hard way.

I don't like the hard nose approach Sharon takes by any means. I just don't see a viable alternative. That is their land now, granted by the almighty UN.

Me, I think we should've found a remote section in Canada or South America to help them establish. Tell me those hard nosed Israelis wouldn't have made it work.

It was a mistake, I agree, to put them in that cesspoll portion of the world.

But we always end up paying for mistakes of out UN forefathers don't we?

Fandros

I think it's pretty clear the Israelis have completely given up on any peace agreement. Everytime an agreement has been close, Hamas or other militant groups stage fresh attacks to sabotage it. Peace will not happen there until both sides have had enough of killing.

Personally I don't see any hope of free and democratic governments being established in the arab world in my lifetime. There is no cultural tradition there of anything other than monarchies, dictatorships or tribal rule. As someone else pointed out, the flavor of islam that is popular there these days is not democracy-friendly. Hoping to end terrorism by establishing fair and just democracies throughout the middle east seems like a nice idea. I just don't think it is possible anymore. Whenever a leader has been overthrown, what comes after has been just as bad or worse.

Take a look at Iran. Admittedly it is not arab, but a similar outlook exists there as well. They got rid of the Shah and replaced him with a sham democracy that serves as cover for a religious dictator and his cronies. People still disappear, people still are hauled off to jail for criticizing those in power. All efforts to reform from within are stomped out. So why would we expect better results if the gulf states, Jordan, Egypt, etc. had their leaders overthrown? Would Saudi Arabia be a more open and free society with Osama at the controls? I think not.

People who blame all the societal ills of the middle east on the western countries need to wake up. When the Sunnis and Shia aren't killing infidels, they are killing each other. Tribal bonds have always meant more than national or regional ones and the culture encourages blood feud. No matter who is in charge there, conflicts will be ongoing. It's just easier to point to the west and say "it's all their fault we are oppressed!" than look to the internal causes.

'Thanks for the summary.
Now propose something. '

Force both palestines and Israel on a stbale peace compact?
They were already close to that, but there are lobbies both sides, whose goal is not the peace.

Palestines will never accept US as peacekeeper. Israel wont accept Europe, most likely. But, thats what we have UN for?

Kill some palestines or kill some Israelian civilian wont solve the matter. Israel wont go out, Palestines wont give up their ex-territory. So why to kill some thousand civilians before reaching an agreement?

'No, you haven't. You don't even understand your own history. This type of appeasement led directly to world war, dude. Who was backing down and appeasing a local dictator in the 30's? '

- Stop, for the love of my nipples, giving examples that have no relevence to the current conversation.
For your own sake as well as mine.
And look who's telling me I don't understand my own history. Didn't you folks turn up a bit late on both world wars?
Anywho, if you are actually comparing Imperialist Nazi Germany wishing to rule the world, with the idea of lack of direct military intervention in the Middle East, I'll personally bite off your penis.

'Was he not released as part of a prisoner exchange only to, both times mind you, run back and start plotting to, and to his glee, kill Israelis, women and children included, again?'

- Black and white again, per usual. Yes and yes.
I notice that you conveniently neglect the question as to WHY he did the things he did, WHY he turned to terrorism, and WHY he was arrested. I'll put you on the right path: he was a kid when Israel invaded the Gaza Strip.
It just strikes me funny that you think Palestinian suicide bombings are even remotely different to the retaliation produced by Israel. They kill more civilians than the Palestinians do. And when you consider Palestine is an unruly, poor, corrupt state.. you have to laugh at the aparant morality of Israel. Does it not wish to be considered as a civilized country? Or is it OK to just blast off missles in to Palestinians when the idiotic suicide bombers do it?
This, kids, is what we call a vicious cycle. To suggest one side is more just than the other, rates up there with Bush's theory of WoMD.

Anywho, if you are actually comparing Imperialist Nazi Germany wishing to rule the world, with the idea of lack of direct military intervention in the Middle East,

I didn't. I'm comparing the European REACTION. There's a comparision to be made, whether you like it nor not.

It boils down to this. We can sit here and wait for the next attack, as Europe and the U.S. have done for decades.

Or we can try something different.

Again, as usual, you're much more interested in making up cute insults than you are in actually looking at the issue.

i dont know if its possible...but halo managed to make himself look EVEN more ignorant and stupid as i read through this post...

the one who fails looking at the issue is the current leadership of US. They made a strategical mistake (and thats not being proactive, but start a wrong war) which will cost much in the future.

At this point, I don't see the Palestinian/Israeli situation ending until something so brutal happens that both sides are reduced to rubble and scavengers. I'm talking dirty bomb in Tel Aviv with cluster bomb retaliation that shreds Palestine. It'll be ugly, and any peace will be temporary until one side or another is annihilated.

Democracy won't last long in any Middle Eastern country in which it's established. It's maintenace will always be tenuous, hinging on appeasement of the largest religious elements until revolution leads to a new Iran/Taliban-esque regime.

The best we can do is protect ourselves against these eventualities.

Anywho, if you are actually comparing Imperialist Nazi Germany wishing to rule the world, with the idea of lack of direct military intervention in the Middle East, I'll personally bite off your penis


First, come on man..you've talked enough about everyone's penis and mouthing them all for us to understand what you are trying to say there, you can drop it now.

Second, the rise of the Nazi party and Hitler were a direct result of the pussy bullshit you're advocating right now(Treaty of Versailles ring a bell?).

'Or we can try something different.'

- Different?
Uhm.. Afghanistan different?

'Second, the rise of the Nazi party and Hitler were a direct result of the pussy bullshit you're advocating right now(Treaty of Versailles ring a bell?). '

- I'm sorry...was Saddam on the verge of invading the entire Middle East?
I know where this example is going, but you're comparing apples to oranges. Using WW2 to illustrate the result of lack of military intervention and applying it to the Middle East is stooewpid, with a capital Z.

And no, I won't stop talking about everyone's penis.

Again, propose something.

You have zero ideas. You just wanna bitch.

Well of course I just want to bitch, why else would I fucking be here?
Propose something for the Israel conflict? How about the US (because they'd listen to none other) making Israel pull out of its occupied territories, stick the UN in there to maintain the borders and blockades, set up some serious talks, not the shitty "road map to peace" that dissolved as quickly as it came, hark the advice of the WORLD, even those countries you detest so much, and then maybe we'd all get a bit more fucking cooperation and aid.

As long as world powers take sides, as long as Bush is going to fail to condemn Israel for its attacks, then peace won't be achievable.
Sharon and co need a kick up the fucking arse, not support or appreciation for their "war on terror". No, that guise has run out. It's got no more juice to be pumped out.
Before we can change their perspectives, we need to change ours.

The Palestines want their homes back and don't want Israel or Western powers controlling their lives (as you'll find is the problem in a lot of conflicts). They want autonomy and independence. And the way they are going about it is wrong. Damn wrong. However, without their wants they will always fight. They have "lost" things they had.
As long as Israel is in there, fucking things up, stirring up the Arab world, being patted on the back by Western powers for their contribution to "The Good Fight", then it is useless.

It's just so much like Kosovo. Back the Kosovans, fight the Serbs. Now we're back, some years later, fighting the Kosovans and backing the Serbs. And there go 1000 of my countrymen to the rescue.

And we, as the West, make the painful mistake of using situations for or against another. Solutions can only come about by objective intervention. You know, almost all the recent dictators or countries fought these past 35 years have at one point or another been allied to us.

Wow am I sidetracked.
Your answer? Move Israel out, send the UN in, confront acts of terrorism (yes, shooting missiles in to a civilian population in an illegal act of assasination IS terrorism) and arrest those involved.
Control and perspective needs to be restored, the Arab hate needs to be faced not by invasion and occupation (unless there is NO OTHER CHOICE) but by negotiation and confrontation on a scale of diplomatic assurance.

The Palestinians are pissed?
Why not look at the reasons rather than their retaliations?

I'd *like* to be able to put the whole area in a box and leave it alone for 20 years. Then, we could look in the box, and if what was inside didn't look like it could play nice with everyone, we could decide what to do with them. Maybe we could just build a big fence, put a sign that said "Beyond hyre ther bee Dragyns" or soemthing on it and shoot anything that tried to come out.

Propose something for the Israel conflict? How about the US (because they'd listen to none other) making Israel pull out of its occupied territories, stick the UN in there to maintain the borders and blockades, set up some serious talks,

You know, it's not just that you're an idiot. You also have the long term memory ability of a housefly. As has been pointed out HUNDREDS of times on this website....

CLINTON GOT ISRAEL TO AGREE TO DO THIS. Yeah, that's right, THE U.S. NEGOTIATED A PEACE AGREEMENT. Yassir Arafat showed up, changed his mind and said no, then started up the terrorist attacks again.

'Maybe we could just build a big fence, put a sign that said "Beyond hyre ther bee Dragyns" or soemthing on it and shoot anything that tried to come out.'

- Hahahaha!

'You know, it's not just that you're an idiot. You also have the long term memory ability of a housefly.'

- No need to keep flirting, I know you're coming on to me.

'CLINTON GOT ISRAEL TO AGREE TO DO THIS. Yeah, that's right, THE U.S. NEGOTIATED A PEACE AGREEMENT. Yassir Arafat showed up, changed his mind and said no, then started up the terrorist attacks again. '

- Israel needs to GET OUT OF THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, numbnuts, the UN needs to take over barricade and border control, and SERIOUS mate, and when I say serious I don't mean "Oh shit, Arafat the fuck face said no, we're buggered, let's leave this now" and abandon anything resembling diplomacy until Bush's painful-to-watch "road map" emerges, I mean SERIOUS. International, I mean comprimise, I mean negotiation, I mean PRESSURE. That's right, pressure.

For fucksake, we can all take a lesson from the Irish.
You don't give up after one failure.

*shakes head* complete a mass invasion and regime change of Iraq, but run with yer tail between your legs at the sign of initial diplomatic failure.

I tell you, dipshit, if a smidgen of resource and dedication were given to political and diplomatic solution that is given to military campagns, we'd all be fucking laughing.

>>"Personally I don't see any hope of free and democratic governments being established in the arab world in my lifetime. There is no cultural tradition there of anything other than monarchies, dictatorships or tribal rule."

Did EUROPE have a cultural tradition of anything other then teocrathic monarchies a hundred years ago? No we did'nt, and don't pretend that Ancient Greece would be relevant.

>>"As someone else pointed out, the flavor of islam that is popular there these days is not democracy-friendly."

The totalitarian flavor is'nt as popular as you think, and most of it's popularity is a effect of those countries being dictatorships.

>>"Take a look at Iran. Admittedly it is not arab, but a similar outlook exists there as well. They got rid of the Shah and replaced him with a sham democracy that serves as cover for a religious dictator and his cronies."

Heh.
You claim that the west have no part of the blame for Iran's fate, and then you conveniently leave out highly relevant parts of the story.

Here's what really happened:

*First Shah overthrows Emperor.

*WWII allies force Shah to resign and hand countro over to his son, because he (the first Shah) was too friendly to the Axis.

*The second Shah reigns a few years.

*The people of Iran forces free elections, and the country is a democracy for a few years. This republic was no paradise, but it was a good start.

*However, the republic refuse to sell oil at bargain prices. Then the British and US governments help the Shah (the second one) to overthrow the legitimate government and take his throne back. "Operation: Great Job!" Indeed. Thanks a lot, assholes.

*Then the people overthrow the tyrant again, and the majority demands democracy. However, there are also those who want communism, and those who want a theocratic state. Soviet supports the communists, and USA decides that fundamentalism would provide more "stability" then democracy would. Thanks a fucking lot AGAIN, you creeps!

This isn't theories, it's official facts. And it wasn't restricted to the governments, it was all over the culture. Go and check old mass media, there's a LOT of Khomeini-cuddling going on. And don't forget to watch "Rambo III". It's all about the noble forces of fundamentalist Islam in Afghanistan, and their righteos battle against Communism.

Fundamentalist Islam wasn't the only worm that the free world was nurturing in the name of "fighting against communism". Ever heard about how the US helped Pinocet to replace the legitime democracy of Chile with a bloodthirsty fascist regime? That's no secret either.

You are right that the west isn't the primary source of evil in the rest of the world, much less the only source. However, we shouldn't pretend that our governments are without blame.

Then the people overthrow the tyrant again, and the majority demands democracy

That's an interesting "fact." I'd like to know where it comes from. You can't have it both ways, as you explained earlier. Just as "the people" didn't overthrow the Czar, "the people" didn't overthrow the Shah.

Again: Democracy doesn't exist in Islam. You follow the rule of the clergy, who interpret the Sharia (Holy Law) for you.

>>"That's an interesting "fact." I'd like to know where it comes from."

Merely personal testimonies from people who grew up in Iran, of course. Since they didn't get a chance to vote that time, the will of the majority can't be scientifically proven - or disproven. However, they did create a democratic republic when they had the chance, and it's not their fault that it was overthrown.

Chile managed to revover from the imposed tyrrany. I hope that Iran will, as well.

>>"Again: Democracy doesn't exist in Islam."

Again: Democracy doesn't exist in christianity either. Europe have been full of teocratic dictatorships for two millennia.

Oh, two more things:

First, while Turkey still have a lot of problems, it is definitly a democracy, not a dictatorship. So democracy definitly exists in the world of islam.

Second, while it's the dominating religion, far from everyone in the middle east is a muslim. In spite of repression, there's a lot of secularists and Bahai and so on. Ever heard of Bahai? It's a offspring of Islam, and a rather cute one at that. It's origin is in Iran, where it's number of followers is estimated to 300.000 by Yale professor Nikki R. Keddie in "Modern Iran: roots and results of revolution".

www.bahai.org/ (http://www.bahai.org/)

Edeina, I'm not sure you are understanding me.

I've been reading Bernard Lewis lately. It's pretty interesting.

Democracy doesn't exist in Christianity because the religion doesn't CARE about the government. Christianity started when strong governments were already in place. The religion had to get along with whatever government was in place. It basically can exist in any type of government (at least one in which the Christians aren't wiped out).

Islam doesn't work like that. Mohammad, who started Islam, wasn't just a religious leader. He was a conqueror and a ruler. He led the people of "Arabia" to overthrow the rule of the Pharoah, and then to go on and conquer other lands from there. He was the leader of the religion, and he established himself as the leader of the countries he conquered. Islam (and the Koran) are IT. Religion. Government. Education. Everything. There is no getting along with the government, be it a theocracy, a republic, or whatever. There is no government. There is no democracy. There is Holy Law as defined by the Koran. And that's it.

Edeina-

It took Europe many centuries to develop what we recognize as democracy from a state similar to what we see in the middle east today..far outside the scope of any one person's lifetime. In fact, the process continues and is not complete yet.

With regards to Iran...are you trying to tell me Khomeini was a western puppet too? Or that Khamenei or any of the mullahs are western puppets today? Radical islam goes back quite a ways, not just in the twentieth century. The Ottomans had their own problems with extremists long before the west got involved.

Democracy is by no means assured once it is transplanted to a new country. Most of sub-saharan Africa and a nice chunk of South America is a mess even though democratic institutions were introduced. Some areas just don't have the education, respect for alternative viewpoints or inclination to make it work. It only takes one despot with guns and a few followers to unravel everything.

*edit* I wanted to add another thought...nowhere did I say the west was innocent of meddling (in Iran in particular) but you are mistaken if you think the US has had any influence whatsoever in Iran after the last Shah was tossed out. Iran has only Iran to blame for it's current political structure. It was not imposed by any outsiders, not Britain, not the US. Theocracy resulted because that is what the majority of Iranians wanted, not because the US had some evil scheme to oppose commies. Do not confuse arming Afghanistan in 1980 with creating a theocracy in Iran in the seventies.

First, while Turkey still have a lot of problems, it is definitly a democracy, not a dictatorship. So democracy definitly exists in the world of islam.

One of the reasons Muslims hate the West is that Western powers threw the caliphate, the religious leader of Islam, out of Turkey.

There were other religions on the Arabian peninsula when Islam started. It seemed like, if you were already there and respectful, you were left alone.

Lemme tell ya how to deal with Terrorist organizations.

First we need to accept the fact that there is NO defence against a man or women willing to kill himself in a attack. None. He is going to succeed in murdering people.
We understand that. Now how do you deal with it.
You make the a suicide bombing a group effort.
You recruit Bombers.. you fucking die.
You train Bombers.. You fucking die.
You finace Bombers.. You fucking die.

The only way to deal with this is the "Kaiser Soza" method.
He waits until his wife and kids are in the ground and he goes after the rest of the mob. He kills their kids, he kills their wives, he kills their parents and their parents' friends. He burns down the houses they live in and the stores they work in, he kills people that owe them money.
You have to make being a terrorist such a horribly bad idea that the people become violently ill at the prospect. You wanna lead Hamas? Kiss everything goodbye. Your life and the life of anyone you care for is forfeit. You better find a deep fucking hole and stay there, because once you stick your head above the dirt line a bullet is gonna blow it apart.
You wanna be in a leadership role in a terrorist Orginization? You better have a suicide wish at LEAST as wide as the people you recruit and send to murder women and children.
Maybe Machevelli had it right when it came to the Middle East.. It is better to feared than loved.
Worked for the Soviet Union.

And what punishment, pray tell LL, do you offer to those who kill civilians but pretend it was for the good of the world?

Or do we just neglect to tell Sharon that we'll kill his wife, his kids, and his pet dog if he fires another missle in to a crowd of Palestinians?

The ONLY difference to the violence from both sides is that one uses missles from a gunship and shells from tanks, and the other uses their own people who wish to die for their cause.

Both is beyond civil, both is retarded and unbelievable, and both end up killing masses of civilians.

Ok, the myriad of ways I can tackle this one.. This man was a SELF-PROCLAIMED murderer of Jews. This man had STATED that he is PROUD of Palistinian children that become suicide bombers. This man was recognized, around the world, as the leader of a terrorist group. Yes he was in a wheelchair, and yes, old and infirm-- but does this negate his ability to order the deaths of Jewish civilians, or affect his skill in being the spiritual inspiration for hundreds of suicidal murderers? Absolutely not. This man, by his own admittance, was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of civilians, and people are lamenting his death *boggle*?

Will Israel suffer greater casualties and suicide bombings as a result? Probably. Does this make their actions wrong? No. When you are surrounded by a sea of sharks, you have to be tough. Anybody who has ever studied history knows appeasement doesn't work, ever. Israel is the equivalent of a matchbook lying smack in the middle of a football field. The owner of the field in question says "give me half your matchbook and we won't bother you anymore". Yeaaah right.

Better yet, let's look back in time before Israel ever existed, when it was Syria/Jordan. Where were the cries of the Palistinians for their homeland then? The fact of the matter is that prior to the formation of Israel, the Palistinians were treated like the gypsies of the Arab world. They were treated like second class citizens by their own people!. It was only once Israel was created that all the Arabs countries suddenly rallied to this "palistinian cause". Once Israel developed essentially what was a desert into arable land, this REALLY got the palistinian juices flowing..

If you've been to Israel it almost looks like any small city in north america. Shopping malls, McDonald's, government offices, doctors, etc. In fact, women can even be doctors and aren't treated like second class cattle! Parents want their children to grow up to be scientists, doctors, lawyers, etc-- and no children are given ak-47's and plastique to march in the street.

Every society has their crackpot factions, religious and otherwise. The differences is that responsible nations marginalize said groups. The arab world encourages religious fanaticism. God forbid the Palistinians ever actually got what they wanted, because then they would realize that they would need things like a city hall, tax bureaus, and bottom line a government that isn't rooted in religious fanaticism.

I think an old PM of Israel said it best: " There can only be peace between Israel and Palistine when the palistinians decide that they love their children more than they hate jews". Chew on that..

Islamic world population: 1.4 BILLION
Jewish world population: 12 Million
Islamic nobel prize winners: 6
Jewish nobel prize winners: 161

Maybe if the Arab world spent a little less time trying to blow up Isreal, and spend a little more time inventing medicines or wrting literature, I would give a rats ass for their "plight"

Ycore

You're a fucking twat.

They are just trying to drag everyone back into the stone age with them.

It's just a problem of the civilized world vs. the people lagging behind in evolving as those around them have done.

You can only resist the changing world for so long, until your totally fucked.

Sounds about right to me... Halo your the dumbass.

Agreed... If we gave the Palestinians Texas, unlimited money, anything they need to become a self sustaining, productive society, they would choose to sit in the desert killing Jews.

Until a society desires to better themselves, instead of harming their enemies then they won't prosper. Everyone else is just left defending themselves from "terrism"

Ranie

Amen.

P.S. Osgiliath you were the inspiration for my sig lol :)

i completely 100% agree with L2

as an underground emcee (slugs) states in the song lambslaughter by prime -- "kill em, fucken kill em, kill em already, kill em"

You are very constructive guys. The one is dumbass here is you.
That 'kill them all', we can't do anything with them,etc is bullshit.

What do you think what beings palestines are? Aliens? With no brain, genetically coded to terrorism?
No, they are human beings, just as like jews and just as like us. All of their action DO has a reason. Thats why they use terrorism, that why they sacrify their children. It not 'fun' for them, it's not their hobbie, it's not their fucking goal to live in refugee camps. They have reasons, even if these reasons can not be understood by many in the western civilization.
If we want to stop them (and yes, we want), the only way to do is to eliminate the reason why they are willing to sacrify themself. This does not mean they have to get everything they want, but some serious agreement must be made between them. You can kill a Hamas leader, you can kill a hamas leader every month, you can kill 30 hamas leaders in a year, but there will be always a new leader, there will be always fighters to carry on their 'holy war'. Now they can play this game for years, but Israel will lost in long term. Israel has something to lost (country, life-standard, home, etc), most of the Palestines has not.

Give them something to lost. Give them a suveren country but not with all the territory they require. Give them deadlines when they can get new territories, if their new, independent country can control hostile personel (the narrow margin of terrorists who fight for terrorism itself and not for their original goals). give them international help IF they require.
Now they have a country to lose, now they have future gains to lose, they will be ready to cooperate with Israel (through international peace-keepers tho). Make the terrorists lose their support among the nation, and without that they are nothing more than guerillas, and yes, then they can be fighted with military/police/secret servie operations.

You dont do that? You do what? You kill 10 hamas activist? 20 other will step into their footstep, they will be trained in 2-3-4 months, a leader in a year. Every terrorist you kill, until they have support and they have real ideology (real for them not for us) creates another wannabe terrorists. You kill the father? The 12 year old boy will blow up a fucking disco 4-5 years later.

You guys, always say, killing them is the right thing to do. But you can never explain us, how this will solve the current problems. You can never explain us how this will end bloodbath. I would be really interested in that, because maybe i just missed the point.

mirdorr,
I do understand. And I disagree.
You treat christianity and islam as if they were coherent monolithic structures. They arn't. You also confuse corrent trends with the whole of history. Big misstake.

I don't know who Bernard Lewis is, I havn't seen the name until today. But from what little I have just seen on Google, he seems to be a okey guy. And he seems to be disagreeing with you.

A more sophisticated form of the blame game finds its targets inside, rather than outside, Islamic society. One such target is religion—for some, specifically Islam. But to blame Islam as such is usually hazardous and not often attempted. Nor is it very plausible. For most of the Middle Ages it was neither the older cultures of the Orient nor the newer cultures of the West that were the major centers of civilization and progress but the world of Islam. There old sciences were recovered and developed and new sciences were created; there new industries were born and manufactures and commerce were expanded to a level without precedent. There, too, governments and societies achieved a freedom of thought and expression that led persecuted Jews and even dissident Christians to flee Christendom for refuge in Islam. In comparison with modern ideals, and even with modern practice in the more advanced democracies, the medieval Islamic world offered only limited freedom, but that was vastly more than was offered by any of its predecessors, its contemporaries, or most of its successors.

The point has often been made: If Islam is an obstacle to freedom, to science, to economic development, how is it that Muslim society in the past was a pioneer in all three—and this when Muslims were much closer in time to the sources and inspiration of their faith than they are now? Some have posed the question in a different form—not "What has Islam done to the Muslims?" but "What have the Muslims done to Islam?"—and have answered by laying the blame on specific teachers and doctrines and groups.

For those known nowadays as Islamists or fundamentalists, the failures and shortcomings of modern Islamic lands afflict those lands because they adopted alien notions and practices. They fell away from authentic Islam and thus lost their former greatness. Those known as modernists or reformers take the opposite view, seeing the cause of this loss not in the abandonment but in the retention of old ways, and especially in the inflexibility and ubiquity of the Islamic clergy, who, they say, are responsible for the persistence of beliefs and practices that might have been creative and progressive a thousand years ago but are neither today. The modernists' usual tactic is not to denounce religion as such, still less Islam in particular, but to level their criticism against fanaticism. It is to fanaticism—and more particularly to fanatical religious authorities—that they attribute the stifling of the once great Islamic scientific movement and, more generally, of the freedom of thought and expression.

From www.theatlantic.com/issue.../lewis.htm (http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/01/lewis.htm)

Gulor, there are no puppets.
Time and again, the west have supported tyrants in the false belief that they would serve us. They didn't.

Killing terrorists just creates martyrs, diplomacy and pressure is the only way, but it will never work the first, second, third……..time, generations of patience is needed.
I was a soldier on the streets of Belfast in the late 70’s and walked past a woman carrying a kid of 2 or 3 years old. The kid spat at my face and called me scum, I thought at that point if this hatred is in a child of that age what hope is there for the future, we should all just up sticks and leave them to it. But 30 years on there is a reasonable peace and a political solution is moving slowly forward. So I have seen first hand that it can work. The middle east is a far bigger problem and may not see a solution for a 100 or more years, but in the end violence and destruction just builds the hatred more. There is blame on both sides and each side feels fully justified in its actions and cannot see it is doing anything wrong. So its diplomacy or genocide I guess, I will go for diplomacy.

That 'kill them all', we can't do anything with them,etc is bullshit.

Im not saying Kill em all.. Im saying Kill all the Leadership. And kill the Money too. If you are a big donator to Terror, and it becomes known, You die.

Look. Its broken over there. The situation for us almost untenable. Al-Queda car bombs a Hotel killing many of their "own" and people in Iraq still swear it was a American Missle.
Their right wing religious people control the hearts and minds of the people, and they want power.
The US Military recently put together a team, Taskforce 121, made up of Seals, Green Berets, CIA operatives, Delta Force and a couple groups that the Government "neither confirms or Denys exist". The sole mission of this group is to hunt down targets. I hope that once they catch Osama, they stay together and start taking out leadership people in every terrorist group on the planet. Using the best technology, training and intelligence to put mortal fear into people who take on leadership roles in terrorist organizations.
We have to remove being a top Terrorist as a way to power in the middle east.
Make those in those positions at LEAST as suicidal as those they send out to kill.

"Kill 'em all" by about five different Yanks.

I'm sorry - who is supposed to be civilized?
Fucking pricks.

Taking down their leadership is a short term solution. There are situation when it is needed. Stablizing middle-east will require eliminating leaders like Osama independently from other steps of stabilization, because they are the ones, who will never change. Elimination needed, because they will never get arrested.

We agree on this, I think. Just 3 very important note:

1, Killing the leadership alone does not help. They will always get new leaders until the ideology stands in their heart. The ideology must be proven wrong.

2, Killing the leadership won't stop them fully. The cell-structure also mean they are capable of working independently. Even if you catch Osama, its needed to be in full alert. Killing him is not the ultimate solution.

3, Killing who, when and what way is very important. Israel has the right to defend itself. But sending a heli after a man in
a wheelchair at the age of 60 and send 2 rockets into him...it means they are on the same level in 'civilzation' as the palestines. Now they have a more radical leader for Hamas.
Im willing to believe the previous one deserved death, but strategically this was a mistake. Same applies for Saddam. Osama and some other ultra-fanatic is the only one who must be caught as soon as possible.

What will happen if (when) they kill Arafat? I dont think anyone can tell us how many civil deaths will cost the coming retaliation, and all the result they reach: Palestine leadership radicalizing.

And wahey, we're back to where we started.
And it's what started this thread. Sharon's "justice" and "defense" is causing nothing more than the Arab world to be emblazed with rage.
Sharon is a short-sighted, dumbshit who doesn't know safety and peace if it bit him in the arse.
What - WHAT - did the gunship and missles contribute to peace in the region?
Well why aren't I asking that about Palestinian bombers? Because Israel is supposed to be the civilized party in this!
And for Good old Dubya to give Sharon props for his war on terror - dear god what a mess.

You don't get peace by this kind of action, no matter how much the target deserves it.
You kill Arafat - you're asking for it.
You kill Next_Hamas_Dipshit_Leader - you're asking for it.

Sharon may as well bend over and lubricate his arsehole, and anyone else who agrees with him.

The only way we'll stop terrorism is to hunt them all down and comepletely destroy them.

While not completely possible I do believe it will be possible to get rid of enough of them that anything else left over will be on a small enough scale that it won't have a global reaching effect any more.

The only way to get rid of them is to completely destroy them, everything they use for support removed in some way, (destruction, seizure by police forces, winning over the local populations)

The only way it will ever go away is if we keep fighting until the bitter end, just stopping short and quitting now, would put us off worse than we were before. It will send a message to them, that we quit when it starts getting tough. We started it now we have to see it to the end.

For those that say oh well killing all of them makes you no better than them.

Listen here assholes...

They fucked with us, they want nothing more than to force everyone else to their views, be it islam, eco terrorists, whatever. When you start to understand they don't give a fuck about you, your family, your way of life, or anything you hold dear, maybe you can get a clue.

None of them would hesitate to kill an innocent if they thought it would further their goals.

We have to do something, and just sitting around talking to them trying to convince them they're wrong isn't going to work, we have to attack until they're destroyed or they sue for peace.

Perhaps that might make us seem like them but there is one definite difference.

I fight to preserve my life, and ensure that others enjoy the freedoms I have.

They fight to force everyone into their own perspective where if you don't agree you die.

Many of you constantly bring up the evils of the crusades as an example of why christianity is bad, Hello what the fuck do you think these people are doing? They're taking a twisted version of Islam and trying to force people to convert through violence...

Hmmm sounds really fucking familiar, so you condemn it when it happened hundreds of years ago, but then when it happens today, we need to be a little more polite and just arrest them.

So while you guys sit here and bitch and quibble about the rights and wrongs of the United States from your arm chairs, I'm going to get back to putting foot to ass in every country the Army sends me too until these fucks are dead and gone.

Halo just hates Americans so much that he pounces on any opportunity to throw shit at us - even if it means siding with terrorists.

Let go of the hate Halo. You lost the colonies long ago ... its time to move on.

Morbok
Ogre Warrior

'The only way we'll stop terrorism is to hunt them all down and comepletely destroy them.'

- So you'll be swinging by Ireland sometime soon? Or are we just talking about those terrorists who stand in the way of some precious imperialistic invasions in the middle east? Just need to be clear. But of course, you'd have to stop funding the IRA before you begun to condem them I guess. Funny that.

'The only way to get rid of them is to completely destroy them, everything they use for support removed in some way, (destruction, seizure by police forces, winning over the local populations)'

- Wahoo! And we liberalists are accused of living in the clouds. Sheesh. So you're going to invade every country with terrorist ties, masacre a good portion of the innocent population in order to topple governments (half of which you'll most likely guess wrongly in your accusations of WoMD and terrorist ties), station thousands of more troops in to countless more countries, inflaming the Arab world and most likely African theatre, Southern American theatre.. Oh and of course the folks in Ireland (least we forget!), start more wars than Sauron, all the mean while spawning ever more people in to the world of terrorism as they turn to it as a last resort.
Heheheheheh.
The biggest laugh I got was when you casually remarked: "winning over the local populations". What, like in Iraq? Haha, my first real laugh out loud.

'The only way it will ever go away is if we keep fighting until the bitter end, just stopping short and quitting now, would put us off worse than we were before. It will send a message to them, that we quit when it starts getting tough. We started it now we have to see it to the end.'

- So you'll be fighting for the rest of your lives, the rest of your children's lives, and so on and so forth, millions most likely dying over the years.. and THAT will be an end?
Crikey, sounds like a portfolio from the Al-Qaede office.
Your name isn't Bin Laden, by any chance?

'For those that say oh well killing all of them makes you no better than them.'

- Was that the end of the sentence? The full stop confused. Me.

'Listen here assholes...'

- Uh oh. You used the "L" word. I sense an important and intelligent reply looming in the distance..

'They fucked with us,'

- While an explosive and eye-catching start, I'm at amiss. Meh? I'm confused. Are you from Israel? Did Hamas fuck with you personally? Perhaps you mean you were apart of an Arab orgy? Did 8 members of Hamas jizz on you while you wanked to a photo of Saddam Hussien? That kinda fucked with you? Oh my. You've warped my fragile little mind.

'they want nothing more than to force everyone else to their views, be it islam, eco terrorists, whatever'

- Right. You've just described every perspective of every form of political aspiring group or movement in the world. And how are you any different? Though one could argue morally better, you are still "kicking ass man!" in an effort to change the views of a certain people and force (and that is in the literal sense, bullets and all) a country in to something that it previously wasn't.

'When you start to understand they don't give a fuck about you, your family, your way of life, or anything you hold dear, maybe you can get a clue.'

- And you give a fuck about any of theirs?
Hell, the IRA give a fuck about that. And they still explode bombs in busy places. When the seldom heard become restless, it doesn't mean they become reasonless.

'None of them would hesitate to kill an innocent if they thought it would further their goals.'

- Wow, it's as if you've crawled in to the mind of a terrorist and know their every thought.
Could I grab a link to your award winning book on the Mind of Joe Terrorist? What? There's only the picture version? Oh now now, no need to be ashamed. Bush shares the same problem.

'We have to do something, and just sitting around talking to them trying to convince them they're wrong isn't going to work, we have to attack until they're destroyed or they sue for peace.'

- I' m sorry, "sitting around talking to them trying to convince them they're wrong"? We do this? In your effective campaign to confuse yourself with such broad and sweeping stereotypes you've only gone and confused me. What terrorists are you talking about now? Al-Qaede? ETA? IRA? Palestinian suicide bombers?
Although your award winning picture book is highly praised, you will perhaps find that terrorism cannot be understood under one concept.
Now as for diplomacy, if there was half the resource and energy devoted to it as there were to military force, then we'd be laughing.
Here in crasy Britain, where we aparantly eat "crumpets" and have "bad teeth", we used force for years in an attempt to quell Irish agression. But after a while, and the help of an event we crasy Brits like to call Bloody Sunday, we realised that trying to kill every threat, as well as a good portion of surrounding innocent people, in an attempt to neutralize terrorist threats to our "way of life", is about as useful and peace achieving as drinking soup through our noses.
Then we "pussied out" and started to do some "coward-like" diplomacy. Guess what? We haven't been bombed in a while!
I know, that's a lot to take in. I didn't post any pictures to help illustrate what I meant. Sit down and take a breather before you read on.

'I fight to preserve my life, and ensure that others enjoy the freedoms I have.'

- By others you mean.. others back home? Surely not anyone else. Heh, surely not the dead, who alone see the end of war (Oh come on, I had to sneak that in there)? So whose freedom are you fighting for Mr.Soldier? The Palestines? The Israels? Do YOU even know who? Hell, do you know WHO you're fighting?
Do you even know your name? 0.o

'They fight to force everyone into their own perspective where if you don't agree you die.'

- What page from your book is that?

'Many of you constantly bring up the evils of the crusades as an example of why christianity is bad, Hello what the fuck do you think these people are doing? They're taking a twisted version of Islam and trying to force people to convert through violence...'

- Who on earth ever used the Crusades as an example? Now you're bringing religion in to it?
Oh, and now they've changed from killing everyone, to trying to convert everyone?
Well at least we seem to have established what terrorists you are talking about. Even if it is on a thread to do with ISRAEL.
I wonder, are you Dubya's speech writer?

'Hmmm sounds really fucking familiar, so you condemn it when it happened hundreds of years ago, but then when it happens today, we need to be a little more polite and just arrest them.'

- Who condemned the Crusades? Take back constantinople baby! Yehar! Go go Doge of Italy! Die you evil Greek sonsofabitches! So forth and so forth?
If you're comparing Al-Qaede (or whoever it is you're talking about now...) to the Crusades, I am gonna ram Crist0's severed penis up your ass and make a porno out of it, and send it to the Hamas who gang-banged you.
Oh look, another execution-happy Yank. Yes, arresting is what we call "civil justice", some of us crasy European nations have emerged from the Age of Law for the Retarded and Simple.

'So while you guys sit here and bitch and quibble about the rights and wrongs of the United States from your arm chairs, I'm going to get back to putting foot to ass in every country the Army sends me too until these fucks are dead and gone. '

- Tell your girlfriend to come and let us know when you have a bullet in your head, attempting to neutralize the government of Saudi Arabia. You know.. home of Terrorist Joe? Oh right. We don't mention them. They're our "friends".

Well that was bloody fun. Allow me to rap up with the final idiot.

'Halo just hates Americans so much that he pounces on any opportunity to throw shit at us - even if it means siding with terrorists.'

- Hate Americans? I'm insulted. I used to know a guy who knew a guy who bought a dog from a girl who dated a guy who had a pen-pal in America. So obviously, I don't hate Yanks.

'Let go of the hate Halo. You lost the colonies long ago ... its time to move on.'

- How can I move on with the memory of all that lost Tea? I'll never move on. My hate consumes me, yada yada yada.

Whew I'm wiped. Used to beable to spread the insults over a few more Euro's, but they all left :(

Halo,

Go back to your one liners...I won't read through all your garbage you are spewing out these days. Nothing new..no new concepts..nothing. America sucks, Bush is the devil, we are all, "Americans", idiots....blah blah wmd blah blah wmd

What is it you do in RL? I am curious because you are starting to remind me of a loser I see with no job and nothing better to do than drive around in his 1950's station wagon all painted up with anti <insert just about anything on earth> on its panels, blaring out propaganda all day long then holding up a sign looking for free food on his down time. Your rants are falling on deaf ears.



Ibudin

Nuke the whales.

'Nothing new..no new concepts..nothing'

- Well if you could possibly name me one new concept coming from the American camp, with the exception of realising that Iraq was an embarassing mistake, then I'll move to America and become your sex slave.
It's funny you fail to recognize the 10 page essay by your American friend whom I was responding to. Heh, but why would you?

'What is it you do in RL?'

- I am a full time slacker, with dellusions of educational achievement, sitting in a University computer lab, waiting to get some late lunch.
I am wearing a cute grey shirt with little twirly blue patterns on, have a tight pair of trousers on, which - I think - really makes my arse look great, and I drive a beaten up Ford Escort that last week had its windscreen wipers stolen.

Windscreen wipers! I mean, what the fuck?

'Your rants are falling on deaf ears.'

- Sorry, what?
Hah. Hahah. Oh that was too easy.

i don't think he is joking. what a douche...

after thorough and full analysis, i have managed to come up with a composite sketch of our idio...err halo...

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=gay+nerd/v=2/l=IVS/*-http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Namiki/8929/asianprince213/img/Banjo.jpg

Has anyone ever told you that you are worthless piece of shit Halo? Move out of the slums and stop listening to those fags you call a government.

this species of human, characterized by idiocy, lack of common sense, and having its head in its ass is clinically considered to be mentally disabled.

very few exist and proper medication is in the works as we speak (putting it to sleep...). If you wish to help out with lifes unforgiving diseases and problems, such as the ignorancy disease please send donations to tierfinwantsmoney@halobitchestoomuch.

-Thank you for your time. Annoucement brought to you by TDEHD (team dedicated to the extermination of ignorancy disease.)

Owning Homo Militarius that much, Halo, will result a concentrated nuclear strike on your town, I fear. And now give them all your invisible WMDs if you want to avoid 130.000 soldiers, deployed to your street.

I hope, you guys will read this again in 2007 when half of your army will spend their time in the middle-east and some other islamic country, trying to keep the picture you were not totally wrong in 2003, you could establish democracies, and those - some minor terrorist forces in da mounts does not mean anything.

(hint: sell some wmds to iran, so you earn some money and has a reason to invade them too)

'Owning Homo Militarius that much, Halo, will result a concentrated nuclear strike on your town'

- Nah, it's OK. They'll just bomb every civilian around me, invade, occupy, get the piss kicked out of them by the locals, stir up trouble in some other region, and run off, leaving the country to ruin.

'Has anyone ever told you that you are worthless piece of shit Halo?'

- Not been reading these forums long, eh?

'Move out of the slums and stop listening to those fags you call a government. '

- slums, fags you call government?
Is this a new level of American intellect?
And you're the one defining the term "idiot"? Quite unbelievable, really.

COME ON! I'm having fun. I used to have to share this between other Euro-scum, but slap my arse and call me Betty - this is how I like it.

Step up, step up.

Halo, besides what you see on whatever socialist TV channel you watch, have you ever actually BEEN to Israel/Palistine? I honestly believe that all concerned posters should chip in a few bucks each for what would obviously be an extremely educational trip.

I've been to Israel. I've been to the west bank. I've seen the soldiers, stone throwing children, and civilians. I've spoken with numerous Israeli citizens and soldiers, and seen with my own eyes the situation as it stands-- and I'm not talking about the extremely watered down and edited versions we see on CNN. You think the Palistinians citizens want peace? Two years ago a few Israeli soldiers took a wrong turn and were swarmed by a Palistinian mob. Were they shot by terrorists? Nope. Palistinian citizens, including children, mobbed the two soldiers, ripping out their eyes and genitals with their bare hands. The mob then took turns "bathing" their extremities in the soldiers' blood, and dancing in the street in some sort of ecstatic religious frenzy. Yeah, these are civilized people.

You call the Israeli soldiers "murderers of civilians", without understanding the integral difference between Palistinian suicide bombers and Israeli soldiers. Everyone in Palistine is RAISED to hate Jews. From the age of five, Palistinian children are given literature that condones the murder of Israelis. Comic books, textbooks, flyers, it's all over the place. Israeli children on the other hand learn stuff like MATH and HISTORY. Speak with the average Israeli 16 year old. He wants to play his Playstation, not spend two years in the army learning how to defend against the millions of Arabs that would surely plow through Israel if given the opportunity. Israelis just want to live in peace, but that's kind of hard when you have people blowing themselves up at every opportunity. Talk to an Israeli soldier, and most are wracked with grief and indecision over the fact that standing SMACK in front of the hidden palistinian snipers, are Palistinian children throwing rocks. Civilian deaths are a fact of war, it's inevitable. However, the Palistinians use their own children as human shields. And why not? They're taught that if their child dies, they've made the greatest sacrifice ever and their child is reserved a special place in heaven. Starting to see the difference?

You think the Palistinians, or better yet Arabs/Muslims in general are a peace loving people? How about you look at the facts:

Current Islamic based Violent Conflicts in the World TODAY:

--The War in Kosovo between Christian Serbs and Muslim Albanians
--The Israeli Arab Conflict
--The war in Iraq
--The civil war between Christians and Muslims in Sudan
--The war between Christian Ethiopia and Muslim Eritrea
--The war in Chechnya and dagestan
--Subversion by Muslim nationalists in western China
--The war between India and Pakistan over Kashmir
--Struggle between Muslim and Christian regime for control of Mindanao
--The war between Indonesia and Muslims in East Timor

If they weren't so busy trying to rally support against the "Israeli scourge", I'm sure the above list would be even longer..

ANybody want to chip in for Halo's plane ticket? It would be really ironic if he took a stroll down to the west bank, only to have his ass rescued by an Israeli soldier because he would inevitably be rock fodder for the "innocent Palistinian children". Lol

Ycore

so what you do with them?
none of Bush fans could show the logic in the total retaliation.
i understand the feeling 'we must strike back' 'we must fuck them' and so on...but noone really thinks about where this will lead.

- So you'll be swinging by Ireland sometime soon? ...... But of course, you'd have to stop funding the IRA before you begun to condem them I guess. Funny that.

Best not to forget the Protestant terrorist groups as well.

Two years ago a few Israeli soldiers took a wrong turn and were swarmed by a Palistinian mob. Were they shot by terrorists? Nope. Palistinian citizens, including children, mobbed the two soldiers, ripping out their eyes and genitals with their bare hands

Can someone please define for me why the Palestinians are not called "Freedom Fighters?" I'll fill you in- history is written by those who win wars, not those who lose them. If the Palestinians were able to drive the Isrealis into the sea once and for all, create a state called "Palestine" and work at integrating themselves into the global economy, do you *really* think that there wouldn't suddenly be Jewish terrorists? Would we call them "freedom fighters, trying to reclaim their homeland?"

(edit) After all, if the Isrealis got to claim lands by right of conquest, why would it be any different if the Palestinians won?

Everyone seems to forget the real reason why there is fighting in the first place. Its called Jerusalem and the Holy lands. People say, oh lets just have the Israelis move to canada or texas, or the palestinians move to turkey or jordan. Well that would mean they would have to leave the so called center of their respective religions. Its the center of christianity too, but we dont give a fuck about that stupid shit called religion anymore. Who cares about some so called place in jersalem where the suposed son of my god was born. If I want to be religious I go to any church on any corner and worship and pray. Once israelis and arabs can let the fuck go of the stupid fucking jerusalem and holy lands, they can move on with their lives. we could move all of israel to the US and arabs could have israel, big fucking deal. Its like having 2 kids swinging baseball bats at each other in a small room fighting over a glass statue on a pedastal in the middle. I wish one of them would just break the god damn thing already so they can stop fighting and get on with life already.

There is a thing called conventional warfare. All first world nations agreed to battle based upon the rules of engagement. Any violator those rules of war will be subject to non conventional retaliation. Remamber what happened when the japanese were kamikaze bombing navy ships? uh huh. Suicide bombing is very unconventional, and in turn deserves un conventional retaliation. So far the western nations have dealt with the terrorism in a completely conventional way. I dont see how they have the restraint. Me personally, I will fight any single person hand to hand. If 2 of more people attack me or they have weapons, you better fucking believe my knife is coming out and someone is gonna be in a serious loss for blood.

Halo, you are the ultimate ignorant armchair socialist. Go outside, let the sun hit your body and maybe drive to a local ghetto and get out of your car and walk around. Get out of your comfortable easy chair and step into some hostile, uneasy place and then maybe you can get a clue.

That is all for now...

Phelonius :|

'You think the Palistinians, or better yet Arabs/Muslims in general are a peace loving people? How about you look at the facts:'

- HAHROFL LOLS SEND ME TO ISRAEL ROFLOLOL
Quote me where I said they were. Quote me where I said the hate wasn't seething. Quote me where I said Palestinians were right in what they do.
Come on, quote me happy dipshit.

Ah, but of course. Try to see the perspective from another view of "Kill 'em all, the evil scum" and you're branded a terrorist lover.
So I need to see the hate in Israel in order to believe that violence and endless death is the only way in life?
Bend over. I've got my decapitated Crist0 penis handy. Come on, over!
It also pains me to see a guy who claims to know so much, spell the words wrong.

But I digress. Are you trying to claim that some 900 million arabs are hostile and blood thirsty animals?
AND HERE IT COMES FOLKS, THE FUNNIEST PART OF THIS PRICKS POST: A list of conflicts which Arabs are involved in. He's actually trying to claim that Arabs participate in wars, and so are violent by nature, and thus should all be killed.
Waaahey!
Let's do one of our own! Which religion, which religion.. hmm.. Oh! Hey I know! CHRSTIANITY!!!! Heh.. why bother eh? Pretty much every violent conflict since 1000 AD.
I know, let's tear his list apart!

'The War in Kosovo between Christian Serbs and Muslim Albanians'

- That's not a war, dipshit. And you may be pleased to know that Serbians started the slaughter under Milosevic. Now that, THAT was a war.

'The Israeli Arab Conflict'

- Palestinians in Occupied Territory resisting? It's like calling the French Resistance trouble makers during WW2.

'The war in Iraq'

- WHAT?!?!? The war STARTED by an Anglo-American invasion?!?!!?!? CHRISTIANS?! Are you a fucking retard? Wait, why bother asking.

'The civil war between Christians and Muslims in Sudan'

- Ah yes, here's a debatable one. Though I might just cry at the idea that an extremist Islamic group who siezed government and are trying to persecute those in the South hardly evidence enough to believe 900 million muslims being evil.

'The war between Christian Ethiopia and Muslim Eritrea'

- OK! WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?! Italy's withdrawel from Eritrea caused the Ethiopians to go all land-crazy... for over 30 years all Eritrea has been doing is trying to claim independence. Do you know how many human rights violations occur in Ethiopia to Eritrean's? Ethiopian's use children on the front line, for godsake.

'The war in Chechnya and dagestan'

- *puts his head in his lap and cries* You mean Dagestan? The muslim country who spent the past 200 years fighting off Russian rule? Perhaps you are reffering to the extremely small and independent - being outlawed even by their own Dagestan government - islamic terrorists who think they are due a little 200 year revenge? Oh incase you didn't know, the muslims in Dadestan call them "traitors to islam".

'Subversion by Muslim nationalists in western China'

- You mentioned China. I won't even touch this.

'The war between India and Pakistan over Kashmir'

- I wouldn't touch the Kashmir discussion with a 10 foot pole. There is as much blame on both parties in that conflict as there was over Bangladesh.

'Struggle between Muslim and Christian regime for control of Mindanao'

- Not familiar with this situation. Though the main muslim rebel group is called "MILF" hahaha.

'The war between Indonesia and Muslims in East Timor'

- Now THAT I will agree with. Wasn't bad enough they spent 400 years under Portugal rule.

Overall? A painfully shitty list, full of conflicts actually started by christian countries, or situations fought by small rebel groups that hardly reflect the islamic majority. And to put Iraq in there... *sighs*

To even attempt to support the theory that 900 million muslims are an ethnic group unable to accept peace because of world wide conflicts.. Oh dear lord.
Could you IMAGINE the list produced if I was as fucking retarded as you and tried to do that with Christians? EZboard wouldn't have the bandwith.

Now FUCK OFF.

PS Dawn of the Dead is good. Watch it. Zombie babies = the rulest.

'Halo, you are the ultimate ignorant armchair socialist. Go outside, let the sun hit your body and maybe drive to a local ghetto and get out of your car and walk around. Get out of your comfortable easy chair and step into some hostile, uneasy place and then maybe you can get a clue.'

- All these little newbie bitches sucking my balls lately is becoming a drag.
Hey kid, I'd have to drive a long way to get to a Ghetto.
This is England - we have some of our dignity left. Not much, but some.

why are you stealing yuegou's lines faggot, your level of cool << his.

I find it ironic to have a brit taking issue with the foreign policy/anti-terrorism/war strategies of Israel. Britain was instrumental in the creation of the state to begin with. And make no mistake, much of the animosity is not about how Israel defends herself, but rather that she exists at all.

Consider the Balfour Declaration (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/The%20Balfour%20Declaration)

Now that being said, I am for the state of Israel and I think that anyone who has a problem with Israel's policy should have to live their permanently before saying how horrible their counter-terrorist activities are.

All that being said, if we really want "equity", the holy cities would be made permanent UN protectorets, the palestinians could move into what is now Israel, while the Germans and Russians would cede a portion of their countries in memory of the millions of jews they killed, neccessitating a Jewish homeland to begin with.

I find it ironic to have a brit taking issue with the foreign policy/anti-terrorism/war strategies of Israel. Britain was instrumental in the creation of the state to begin with.

Halo doesn't stand by Britian on a lot of things they are doing or did in the past. So its hard to fault him for that. He hates/disagrees with most anything going on in this world. Hes a troubled kid but seems to have a good heart slanted towards the terriorists of the world. Once we as Americans start getting our asses kick (unlikely..ya we are the CHAMPS...that should get another spark out of him) then I suspect he will start campaining for America.


Ibudin

Hamas Charter (http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html)
some of the more enlightening parts

Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.

Those Muslims are cognizant of their duty towards themselves, their families and country and they have been relying on Allah for all that. They have raised the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors in order to extricate the country and the people from the [oppressors'] desecration, filth and evil.

Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said:

The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims.

There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game.

The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation; they manufacture men and play a great role in guiding and educating the [new] generation. The enemies have understood that role, therefore they realize that if they can guide and educate [the Muslim women] in a way that would distance them from Islam, they would have won that war. Therefore, you can see them making consistent efforts [in that direction] by way of publicity and movies, curricula of education and culture, using as their intermediaries their craftsmen who are part of the various Zionist Organizations which take on all sorts of names and shapes such as: the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, gangs of spies and the like. All of them are nests of saboteurs and sabotage.

Those Zionist organizations control vast material resources, which enable them to fulfill their mission amidst societies, with a view of implementing Zionist goals and sowing the concepts that can be of use to the enemy. Those organizations operate [in a situation] where Islam is absent from the arena and alienated from its people. Thus, the Muslims must fulfill their duty in confronting the schemes of those saboteurs. When Islam will retake possession of [the means to] guide the life [of the Muslims], it will wipe out those organizations which are the enemy of humanity and Islam.

The Jews have been scheming for a long time, and they have consolidated their schemes, in order to achieve what they have achieved. They took advantage of key elements in unfolding events, and accumulated a huge and influential material wealth which they put to the service of implementing their dream. This wealth [permitted them to] take over control of the world media such as news agencies, the press, publication houses, broadcasting and the like. [They also used this] wealth to stir revolutions in various parts of the globe in order to fulfill their interests and pick the fruits. They stood behind the French and the Communist Revolutions and behind most of the revolutions we hear about here and there. They also used the money to establish clandestine organizations which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests. Such organizations are: the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions Clubs, B'nai B'rith and the like. All of them are destructive spying organizations. They also used the money to take over control of the Imperialist states and made them colonize many countries in order to exploit the wealth of those countries and spread their corruption therein.

As regards local and world wars, it has come to pass and no one objects, that they stood behind World War I, so as to wipe out the Islamic Caliphate. They collected material gains and took control of many sources of wealth. They obtained the Balfour Declaration and established the League of Nations in order to rule the world by means of that organization. They also stood behind World War II, where they collected immense benefits from trading with war materials and prepared for the establishment of their state. They inspired the establishment of the United Nations and the Security Council to replace the League of Nations, in order to rule the world by their intermediary. There was no war that broke out anywhere without their fingerprints on it

Gee.. negotiations would have worked eh?

Funny that the Freemason's are mentioned in there since that organization has existed since well before Isreal.

Freemason's = illuminati = we are all doomed!

"Japanese view of the Palestinians."

Yashiko Sagamori

"If you are so sure that Palestine, the country, goes back through most of recorded history I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country:

When was it founded and by whom? ·What were its borders? What was its capital? ·What were its major cities? What constituted the basis of its economy? What was its form of government? Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat? Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation? What was the language of the country of Palestine? What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine? What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese Yuan on that date. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

If you are lamenting the low sinking of a once proud nation. Please tell me, when exactly was that nation proud and what was it so proud of? And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call Palestinians are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over -- or thrown out of -- the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?

I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day Palestinians to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history won't work here. The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it the Palestinian people and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the West Bank and Gaza, respectively? The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut and California with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so-called Palestinians have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel, and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a nation -- or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.In fact, there is only one way to achieve peace in the Middle East.

Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side, should pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel's ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again, was its beginning? You are absolutely correct in your understanding of the Palestinians murderous motives.

I am afraid however that you, along with 99% of the population of this planet, have missed the beginning of WW III (they call it Jihad) quite a few years ago. The siege of the US embassy in Tehran in 1979, an event to which the latest Nobel Peace Prize winner had so miserably failed to respond, can be very well used as the day WW III stepped out of the pages of the Koran and into the current events. I pray the United States and Israel lead the world to victory in this war. Come to think of it, there is no choice, be you a Christian, a Jew, or even, believe it or not, a Muslim.

Yashiko Sagamori

Hmm.
I think Yashiko Sagamori is right about the cynicism of the Jordanian and Egyptian policy. And that the problem would go away if they stopped using the palestinian people as a frigging meat-shield against Israel. And that the world ought to put some focus on this.

Apart from that, he spews a lot of bullshit. It's a pity really: It could have been a good read on the whole, if he could have kept the tone down a bit. The entire population of palestine being a terrorist organisation? Get real! World War III started two and a half decade ago? Please consult your nearest reality. Only way to not call it pure bullshit right away is to call it metaphore and poetic license. But if we do that, then we must still accnowledge that it it garbles the message horribly without filling much constructive purpouse. And thus, in the end, it's still bullshit.

Mhm, I'm wondering why the guy didn't post those parts either.
Cute.

Well Akipt, that picture would be very funny if Israeli's didn't surpass the number of innocent deaths in their "retaliations" than the Palestinians do in their attacks.


Could you please point me to your source of this information?

www.ifamericansknew.org/ (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/)

www.phrmg.org/ (http://www.phrmg.org/)

Israeli deaths/injuries - 942/6,276
Palestinian deaths/injuries - 2,805/25,316

I tried to find more "pro-israel" sites, but oddly enough, none of those seemed to display these figures.
Weird that.

I fail to see the relevance body count on either side of the dispute has to do with WHO is right. Because the Israelis are better equipped, trained, and organized, they're the "evil" side right? Maybe if Israeli parents signed up their children for after school activities like "bomb making 101", "martyrdom 101", and "effective stone throwing", their body count would be higher? Maybe if every Israeli thought that they would go to heaven to be greeted by 75 nubile virgins if they killed Palistinians, maybe the body count would be higher? Your body count statistics mean NOTHING.

I decided to look up the Palistinian national anthem. Good stuff. Lots of "blood" and "revenge"..

My country , my country
My country, the land of my grand fathers
My country, my country
My country, my nation, the nation of eternity
With my determination, my fire and the volcano of my revenge
The longing of my blood to my land and home
I have climbed the mountains and fought the wars
I have conquered the impossible, and crossed the frontiers
My country, my country, the nation of eternity
With the resolve of the winds and the fire of the guns
And the determination of my nation in the land of struggle
Palestine is my home, Palestine is my fire, Palestine is my revenge and the land of eternal
My country, my country, the nation of eternity
I swear under the shade of the flag
To my land and nation, and the fire of pain
I will live as a guerrilla, I will go on as guerrilla, I will expire as guerrilla until I will be back
My country, my country, the nation of eternity

Anybody care to post the Israeli National Anthem?

Ycore

Hell and Halo thought our National Anthem made him want to puke.

Anybody care to post the Israeli National Anthem?


As long as the Jewish spirit is yearning deep in the heart,

With eyes turned toward the East, looking toward Zion,

Then our hope - the two-thousand-year-old hope - will not be lost:

To be a free people in our land,

The land of Zion and Jerusalem.


Zion in this case is a biblical fortress, not to be confused with the matrix counterpart :)

'I fail to see the relevance body count on either side of the dispute has to do with WHO is right. Because the Israelis are better equipped, trained, and organized, they're the "evil" side right? '

- Uhm, no. Not even remotely.
There is no right side in this conflict. But the figures and facts were posted as somebody requested them.
The original point I made regarding them, is when I spoke about the brutal and uncivilized retaliation by the Israelis, killing an incredibly larger amount of Palestinians than suicide bombings ever did.

I think I said something along the lines of "It doesn't matter if you use missles from a gunship or bombs strapped to children - innocents die regardless." Everybody is quick to judge the suicide bombers or "terrorists", whichever you wish to call them, but they seem happy to disregard the deaths of innocents at the hand of the Israelis, putting it down to "accidental" military action.
Well if that's the case, then fuck me do they cross the line of stupidity. I mean how many times does it take to fire tank shells or gunship missles in to a crowd to realise you're blowing women and children up?

As a sidenote mate, understanding a different perspective doesn't make you agree with that viewpoint.

I know it's hard for you to understand this Halo, because you've demonstrated a complete lack of comprehension every other time it's brought up:

There is a very big difference between intentionally targeting a wedding party or shopping mall just to kill civilians and having "civilians"(I'd like to know who all you are calling civilians in this case, as a 12 year old throwing rocks isn't an innocent bystander) being accidently caught in fire directed at opposition forces.

'as a 12 year old throwing rocks isn't an innocent bystander'

- Oh, the 12 year old must die then. Right? Cretin.

Crist0, a country can't hide behind gross negligence for that long. You can only blow up so many civilians before you realise "Hey.. perhaps firing those missles in to the crowd of civilians to hit that guy with a gun ISN'T the best idea."
Like a fucking monkey. "Well we killed the guy with the gun! Those 25 other ppl shouldn't have been standing there!"

Halo, read the following quote

We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today”

Do you think the people that make such statements would be willing to honestly negotiate?

Fil

No he wants Israelies to sit on there asses while they get blown up by stupid fucking suicide bombers till the death tolls equal out. Then they can use medieval war techiniques against one another and that will be A. O.K with him. Planes and over powering military is to much of an advantage for him ..because maybe if they just sit there and allow palestine to continually have there way with them the fighting will just stop out of boredom for the fighters and they realize what a great big mistake they made?

'till the death tolls equal out'

- Oh I'm sure there's no worry of that happening any time soon.

'the fighting will just stop out of boredom for the fighters and they realize what a great big mistake they made?'

- I live in the dream!

Hey Halo,

"Hey.. perhaps firing those missles in to the crowd of civilians to hit that guy with a gun ISN'T the best idea."

Maybe the "civilians" should start realizing that crowding around armed terrorists/militia in the middle of a firefight isn't a good idea? That maybe surrounding a known terrorist leader in his armed motorcade puts your life at *possible* risk. Maybe Palistinian parents should realize that it's a better idea to send their kids after school to Arts&Crafts rather than the front lines to provide meatshield cover for the armed palistinian militants? Do you see Israeli children a) armed and b) hanging with the army at checkpoints? The Palistinian numbers for child/women deaths is a direct result of the fact that they (much of the time) intentionally put themselves in harms way.

So, if the Israeli soldier is under fire by a militant that has a bunch of "civilians" dancing around him and throwing rocks, do you just sit their and get shot like some fool?

You make it sound like the Israeli soldiers sit in their tanks, waving cowboy hats, shouting "yee-haw", and indescriminantly firing tank shells into whatever moves. But let's look at some recent facts shall we? In the assasination of the sheik, they could have bombed either his home or the mosque he was leaving, but they didn't; they decided to target his car instead to minimize casualties. Last week a 14 year old palistinian boy laden with explosives surrendered to Israeli soldiers after being challenged at a checkpoint. If the boy would have detonated his bomb upon being challenged, both Israelis and Palistinians would have died. If the Israeli's wanted to be 100% safe, they would have put a bullet in the kids head as soon as the bomb vest was spotted. Instead they took a risk, and gave the kid a chance to surrender. Would the Palistinians have done the same?

There is no doubt that all children, by nature, are inherently "innocent". But what happens if the child in question is raised to be a murderer? What if, instead of GI Joes he gets a mock "explosive vest" and action figures idolizing dead suicide bombers? Are bullets fired from the hands of a 13 year old any less deadly than that of an adult?

Why don't you e-mail the admin of that website that lists the body count of dead children on the Palistinian side, and ask him/her to remove the fraction that represents armed children, children throwing rocks, children hanging out with armed militants, etc. What percentage of that number represent children that were killed while sitting at home, playing in the park, picking up milk at the 7-eleven, or on the way home from school? A very small percentage I promise you.

Again, I invite you to go to Israel and sit at a checkpoint all day and see what goes on. When the school bells ring at the end of the day on the west bank, it doesn't mean "time to go home and play Playstation", it means "time to throw rocks and lock horns with the Israeli soldiers"--parent sanctioned of course!

Ycore

"Hey.. perhaps firing those missles in to the crowd of civilians to hit that guy with a gun ISN'T the best idea."
Would it be better if they simply fired their missiles at shopping centers and supermarkets in imitation of the suicide bomber's strategy?

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

You forgot to respond to Ycore's post, Halo. I know you didn't miss it intentionally, because it's a well-written, nicely thought-out kinda post, and you never skip those on purpose, so I thought I'd remind you it was there, in case you forgot. I really wanted to see your input on some of his points.

PS - The "Postman Pat and his black and white cat" song is stuck in my head, and I blame you. Everytime I see your name, that song starts playing in my mind. Dunno why.

Let me expand on my previous quote:

Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war. We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today, and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this country, our war against the occupier.

Yitzhak Shamir
Israeli Prime Minister 83-84, 86-92
1943 article "Terror"


It's just not as simple as some of you want to make it.

'You forgot to respond to Ycore's post, Halo. I know you didn't miss it '

- No, I didn't miss it. But it's almost identical to his previous one, which doesn't really merit replying along the lines of "Yes, I will go to Israel then".
But /sigh Let's have a go.

'Maybe Palistinian parents should realize that it's a better idea to send their kids after school to Arts&Crafts rather than the front lines to provide meatshield cover for the armed palistinian militants?'

- Just how black and white are you trying to paint this all? It's exactly what most people do on this forum, apply an objective, Western, view to a situation and assume it's stupid that the result doesn't match their opinion. Some Palestinians do the above, because they feel they're fighting the occupying enemy, that tends to kill them regularly.

'Do you see Israeli children a) armed and b) hanging with the army at checkpoints?'

- Oh, I wasn't aware Israel was under occupation by a foreign army, or full of hate like the many Palestinians who are fighting for their state. Maybe if the roles were reversed, and Palestinians occupied Israel with superior military and American backing, where-as Israeli's were left wanting.. then you'd see more Israeli kids with fire-arms.

'The Palistinian numbers for child/women deaths is a direct result of the fact that they (much of the time) intentionally put themselves in harms way.'

- While that is a fact that you're just assuming, doesn't matter. If a group of kids, in their hateful way, wish to surround imbecil Palestinian terrorists, then you do NOT fire missles at them to get to the twat.
Or do you actually think the stupid and retarded Palestinian women and children who do this deserve to die? Are you actually saying that?!

'So, if the Israeli soldier is under fire by a militant that has a bunch of "civilians" dancing around him and throwing rocks, do you just sit their and get shot like some fool?'

- Yes, you just sit there. *rolls eyes*
Don't undermine me you cretin.
What you don't do is jump in a tank, roll around the turret, and fire 10 shells in to the crowd.
Or.. do YOU?

' Are bullets fired from the hands of a 13 year old any less deadly than that of an adult?'

- No. But I'm wondering how many women and children were firing guns at the time their bodies were torn apart. I find it difficult to believe 3,000 of the people killed were all waving guns around.

'children throwing rocks'

- Children throwing rocks deserve to die?!?
Are you related to Osama Bin Shithead at all?

'What percentage of that number represent children that were killed while sitting at home, playing in the park, picking up milk at the 7-eleven, or on the way home from school? A very small percentage I promise you.'

- So any person NOT doing those, deserves to die? Those cheering the Palestinian terrorists, standing by them, or simply looking on, OR throwing rocks, all deserve their place on the dead list? Eh? No biggie - THEY WEREN'T IN THE LIBRARY! It's OK. They're not *too* innocent. We'll get away with a few thousand of them dead.

'Again, I invite you to go to Israel and sit at a checkpoint all day and see what goes on.'

- Ok, then I'll stop by Iraq, dabble in North Korea, and probably jump a place home through Kosovo. Fancy paying for the ticket?

'When the school bells ring at the end of the day on the west bank, it doesn't mean "time to go home and play Playstation", it means "time to throw rocks and lock horns with the Israeli soldiers"--parent sanctioned of course!'

- I'm wondering how many Palestinian kids have Playstations.

Look, let me lay this out for you, because as always with you Yanks on this board, you take the genius Bush's idea of "If you're not with us, you're against us".
There is no right side or wrong side in the conflict. There is no innocent party. You cannot look down on the Palestinian's while rallying about the Israeli's. Innocent people die on both sides. Same with Palestinians, you can't believe the suicide bombers are freedom fighters, while entertaining the idea that the Israel army are out to kill as many Palestinians as possible.
You see that? It's not black and white. Palestinians aren't evil, Israeli's aren't good. Palestinian terrorists target innocent people, but Israeli military kill overwhelming amounts of innocent people. Intentional? Debateable. But, as I said before, you can only kill so many THOUSAND before you question the retaliation.

Just don't think there is a RIGHT side in this conflict. Both sides are loosing.

So by your Reasoning Halo, I have a bomb strapped to my chest, I have 50 women and children around me, cheering me on, as i walk into, say for arguments sake a hamburger shop. Those folks shouldnt have to worry about someone shooting them to stop a greater tragedy? take it one step further, I have a nuclear device straped to my chest, are the people around me allowed to be killed then? In the military, civilians caught in the middle of a war are called collateral damage, but if they place themselves in harms way tough crap. Don't hang around the terrorist and you greatly reduce your chances of becoming Collateral Damage.

'take it one step further, I have a nuclear device straped to my chest'

- You're an idiot.

- and you're avoiding the question, as usual.

What question?
He's given me two scenarios for my logic.
Neither have ever happened, and one is so fucking stupid it's hardly worth reading.

Either that or the BBC failed to mention a suicide bomber with a nuclear device strapped to his chest, walking in to a cafe with 50 women surrounding him.

What the FUCK are you people smoking?!

The question is obvious. You'd rather troll than make an attempt at an intelligent statement.

*rolls eyes*
I'm sorry, how am I trolling?
Because I don't agree with you? Or because I don't answer questions like the nuclear device strapped to someone's chest?

You become a bigger twat every day.

Heh, I remember when all us liberals were called trolls back before the Iraqi invasion, because all we said was "there are no WoMD". Everyday it was "stop trolling".
It's usually a great guise or escape route for one of you Yanks when you don't actually have anything to contribute to an arguement.

Actually, I find the question to be fairly fanciful, but I'll answer it.
I have a bomb strapped to my chest, I have 50 women and children around me, cheering me on, as i walk into, say for arguments sake a hamburger shop. Those folks shouldnt have to worry about someone shooting them to stop a greater tragedy?

Obviously you would be shot and anyone standing in the way is pretty much an idiot.

Now, in your hypothetical scenario, care to explain to me why 50 women and children are following someone they know is about explode into a fiery ball? In the real world of modern day Israel/Palestine, care to show me where 50 women and children have ever been around a suicide bomber cheering them? If such a thing had happened, could you explain how 50 cheering women and children and a suicide bomber got into Israel in the first place? Unless you meant they were going to bomb an hamburger place in the West Bank?

If you meant to apply it to Yassin, and the "bombs strapped to my chest" was just an allegory, then I might actually come closer to agreeing with you. I still think its dangerous to give carte blanche to using indiscriminate weapons in civilian areas. Way too easy for that to be abused.

Don't hang around the terrorist and you greatly reduce your chances of becoming Collateral Damage.

I'm walking down the street. A bank robber that has just killed a teller comes running out of the bank across the street. If the S.W.A.T. team decides to open fire and I get hit, is it my fault for hanging around a bank robber?

Now, here is my scenario. A group of Palestian militants enter an Israeli town with full blessing of the PLO. Over three days they brutally murder and mutilate 800 Israelis before finally leaving when international pressure on the PLO becomes too great. What should be the punishment?

I'm sorry, you answered a non-existent question. You did not mention anything about a nuclear device.

TROLL!!!!!
OMGOSH TROLL< WTF DUED OMGOSH TROLLLL!!!!11

The answer would be the same as the one with explosives, your life would be forfeit, anyone knowingly standing next to someone with a nuclear device is pretty dumb, almost as dumb as a question that has its basis in someone having a nuclear bomb strapped to their chest ( Dr. Stranglove flashes here ).

You're not trying to avoid my question, are you?

Fil