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Lleauric
11-23-2005, 10:48 AM
Great Read


http://www.wnd.com/images/PATsname.jpg
http://www.wnd.com/images/BUCHANAN%28COLOR%292.jpg
A plague on both their houses
Posted: November 23, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 Creators Syndicate Inc.



Gen. William Odom has called the Iraq War the greatest strategic blunder in the history of the United States. Final returns are not yet in, but he may not be far off.

In invading Iraq, we attacked and occupied a country of 25 million that had not attacked us, did not threaten us, did not want war with us – to strip it of weapons we now know it did not have.

Even if, as most believed, Saddam had chemical or biological weapons, there was no evidence he intended the suicidal use of such weapons on U.S. troops in Kuwait, or to hand them over to al-Qaida to use on America, risking massive retaliation. Saddam was never a suicide bomber. He was always a survivor.

After 9-11, we couldn't take the chance, countered the War Party. Nonsense. We take the chance every day with Iran and North Korea, far more powerful nations, as we did every day of the Cold War against a nuclear-armed Russia and China. They had missiles and WMD. But, like Saddam, they were deterred.

Yet President Bush, prodded by a cabal of neoconservatives who, for their own motives, had been plotting war on Iraq for years, invaded. History will hold him accountable for the consequences.

On the credit side, he liberated the Iraqis from a murderous tyrant. But the cost is high and rising: 17,000 U.S. dead and wounded – i.e., the eradication of an entire American division – $200 billion, the diversion of priceless assets from the fight against al-Qaida, rampant anti-Americanism in the Islamic world, the shattering of our alliances, the division of our nation, and the prospect of a U.S. defeat by Iraqi insurgents and terrorists.

Another cost must be added after a week in which Harry Reid and Co. accused President Bush of lying us into war, Republicans accused Democrats of cutting and running, and Rep. John Murtha accused Bush and Cheney of being chicken-hawks who dodged the draft in Vietnam.

Our leaders are behaving like the leaders of the late and unlamented French Third Republic.

But if Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are responsible for the war and its consequences, so, too, are the potential Democratic nominees: Kerry, Edwards, Clinton, Biden and Bayh. In October 2002, because the country was cheering a commander in chief beating a war drum, they voted Bush a blank check to take us to war. In the fall of 2005, with the people souring on the war, they voted for a timetable to get out.

We were deceived, we were misled, we were lied to, they wail. One only awaits their explanation that they were brainwashed by a C student. The Democratic Party is a poodle of public opinion, unfit to lead the nation.

But if we were stampeded into this war, we must not let ourselves be stampeded out of Iraq by a Democratic Party in panic, scrambling to get out in front of its base. For the cost of retreat and defeat may be far more calamitous than the costs of the present war.

There are at present four exit strategies:

A. The John McCain strategy of sending 10,000 more U.S. troops, taking as long as needed to train the Iraqi army and staying as long as necessary to achieve victory.

B. The Bush strategy of "Stay the Course," with the present complement of forces staying as long as it takes to win.

C. The exit strategy envisioned in the bipartisan resolution in the Senate last week that passed with 79 votes, calling for Bush to give the Congress benchmarks of success, leading to withdrawal.

D. The Democratic option, supported by all but five Democratic senators, to set benchmarks and a timetable for getting out.

The McCain option is a non-starter, for it is non-credible. Adding 10,000 troops to the 160,000 there will not pacify a Sunni Triangle of 5 million. U.S. opposition to the war is near 60 percent. And if Bush refused to send the troops McCain has wanted for two years, he will not do so now that his support is evaporating. The failure to listen to Gen. Shinseki in 2002 was an irremediable blunder.

As for the Bush policy of "Stay the Course," with support for the war crumbling in Congress and the country and no light at the end of the tunnel, it is unsustainable. On the other hand, a House resolution, engineered by Republicans, calling for immediate withdrawal was backed by only three members. Cut and run is not an option.

However, there exists a bipartisan consensus for Iraqification – the transfer of political authority in Baghdad and responsibility for the war to the Iraqis. All that remains in dispute is the timetable.

As for the ugliness and acrimony of Washington, it reflects the rage, resentment and shame of men who know they made a horrible mistake, thousands have suffered and died for it, and worse may be yet to come. The truth is both parties failed America. What the Greatest Generation won, the baby boomers are frittering away.

Ailwon
11-23-2005, 10:59 AM
Sorry...couldn't get to far into it before the shear idiocy of this quack overwhelmed me.

Malse
11-23-2005, 11:08 AM
You know the home team has a problem when Pat Buchanan is sounding almost lucid.

I have to call General Odom on hyperbole though, the greatest strategic blunder in the history of the United States was Market-Garden.

Lleauric
11-23-2005, 11:14 AM
Good call Malse..
But..
Wasnt Market Garden a British planned operation with American support?
Although interestingly and coincidently... the total number of killed/wounded and captured from MG was 17,200...
Almost the exact number of American killed or wounded in Iraq to this point

Malse
11-23-2005, 11:25 AM
Market-Garden was Montgomery's baby but it still rested on Eisenhower's go ahead. It was a strategic blunder because it delayed the reinforcing and supply stability of the push to the Rhine until early '45, allowing Germany time to come up with the Ardennes counter-offensive which in turn lead the overrun of Eastern Europe by Russia and forty-someodd years of cold war. Whether or not that would have had an effect on the decision to deploy nuclear weapons against Japan is also up in the air.

All water under the bridge now, but does get the mind wondering.

fildien
11-23-2005, 11:36 AM
You know the home team has a problem when Pat Buchanan is sounding almost lucid.


Actually it's quite scary. Gosh what a mess this is. I honestly don't think anything we do will be the clear and correct choice. No matter which route we take it's going to get ugly. Both parties disgust me.

Thormir
11-23-2005, 11:42 AM
Buchanan is the broken military clock that's right once a day. He's an odious creature, but there's a lot of truth in his essay.

Furtivus
11-23-2005, 02:40 PM
No doubt MG was a failure but I lean more to blaming the Brits for that. For pure U.S. stupidity, I'd probably put the 2nd battle at Manassas on the top of the list. Of course it's not much of a fight pitting Pope against Lee and Jackson. Chancellorsville was almost as bad although the loss of Jackson was probably the greatest loss of the battle. In fact, the entire pre-Grant campaign by the North was a series of horrible strategic blunders. The War should never have lasted as long as it did.

As for the current conflict's mistakes, the difficulty is pointing out specific errors and the alternatives that should have been used. More troops/less troops/no troops -- arguments on all sides. Only somewhat consensus mistke I have seen is the disbanding of the Iraqi army although there have certainly been arguments for and against that move.

akipt
11-23-2005, 02:57 PM
Before Buchanon gets too much praise, let's jump to another politician's words...

I agree with John Kerry!

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:A6lmQUzoMosJ:kerry.senate.gov/high/record.cfm%3Fid%3D191582+&hl=en

fildien
11-23-2005, 03:00 PM
mmm that was when the world believed there were weapons no?

Kelraz Bladesinger
11-23-2005, 03:00 PM
Hey, lets quote 3 year old quotes out of context. There may have been a reason to go, but that still doesn't mean we haven't FUCKED it all up the past few years.

Bylimet Spiritwalker
11-23-2005, 04:21 PM
"...brainwashed by a C student."

ROFLMAO......what a wonderful way of turning it back on those pointing fingers. Regardless of which side of the debate one falls on, opinion pieces such as this at least keep most of us chuckling.

Trikki
11-23-2005, 10:55 PM
Good call Malse..
But..
Wasnt Market Garden a British planned operation with American support?
Although interestingly and coincidently... the total number of killed/wounded and captured from MG was 17,200...
Almost the exact number of American killed or wounded in Iraq to this point

U.S. Deaths in Iraq
As of Monday November 21, at least 2,097 members have died since the beginning of the Iraq war, according to as Associated Press count. At least 1,638 died as a result of hostile action, acording to military numbers. The figure includes five military civilians. The AP count is five higher than that the Defense Department's tally, last updated at 10 a.m. EST Monday.

The latest identifications reported by the military:
Army sgt. Luis R reyes, 26 colorado- bus accident
Army pvt. christopher M. Alcozer, 21 Illinois-small arms fire
Army Staff Sgt. Ivan V. Alarcon, 23 Idaho-vehicle accidentally rolled over
Army Master Sgt. Anthony R.C. Rost, 39 Michigan-explosive in Mosul
Army Sgt. Dominic Sacco, 32 New York-tank was attacked by a rocket

These numbers and sacrifices are significant. The Iraq war started in 2003. 2,100 Americans lost their lives in 2.5 years of war. The number of injured are probably 10 times that amount or more. But compare that number 2,100 with the number of people that died last year in drunk driving accidents, from smoking cigarrettes, homicides. The WTC attack where 5,000 souls lost their lives. I know you said 17,200 killed or wounded. I just thought I would let you know what the exact number of deaths in Iraq is.

This is war, war is like a shit sandwich. The more bread you use the better it tastes. But you're still eating shit.

:devil