http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4370617.stm

Terrible. Tragic.

When are kids gonna learn to stop making fun of those guys that wear the black trench coats to school and have no friends?

More like when will jackass cops learn to keep their firearms out of reach of their obviously unstable young persons.

Jackass cops? Huh? Did we read the same story?

I'm not sure what the cultural landscape is like on an indian reservation in northern MI; but here in Arizona, in *rural* areas, it's truly another culture. Tight communities. Anyone from the region have a comment?

Just for clarity:

MI = Michigan
MN = Minnesota (where this happened).

Not trying to be the grammar police, just want to seperate the Michigan Militants from the Minnesota nutjobs.

Just read this from the article:

"The shooter was intent on something... I think there was an intent to kill."

Ya think?! WTF was the point of that quote :confused:

I've been up there a few times for hockey tournaments/fishing trips, and for the most part it didn't seem any different than the rest of MN except for more trees. Same kind of people as anywhere else, more native american population, but otherwise no different that I saw /shrug.

On the subject of the actual shooting; I'm not really surprised I guess. We'll never really know the reasons why the person did it, we can only speculate.

My assumption with all these cases are the same... like columbine... people are getting picked on, made fun of, etc.. and they just get sick and tired of it. If you don't want shit like this to happen, just leave other people alone.

This could be the wrong assumption in this case, though, based on him shooting his grandparents as well. Though, maybe he went and got the gun, and they tried to stop him, so he shot them too. *Boggle*

Jackass cops? Huh? Did we read the same story?

I'm not sure what the cultural landscape is like on an indian reservation in northern MI; but here in Arizona, in *rural* areas, it's truly another culture. Tight communities. Anyone from the region have a comment?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/22/school.shooting/index.html

--snip--

FBI Special Agent in Charge Michael Tabman said Tuesday that Jeff Weise, 16, killed his grandfather, Daryl Lussier, and his grandfather's girlfriend, Michelle Sigana, with a .22-caliber gun Monday before going to Red Lake Senior High School.

Tabman said authorities believe Weise stole his grandfather's police-issued pistol and a shot gun as well as a bulletproof vest. Authorities said he had three guns in all.


--snip--

He also drove a squad car to school.


When are kids gonna learn to stop making fun of those guys that wear the black trench coats to school and have no friends?

Hmm, very true.

Looks like Halo came out of his hole though. M0nkeyman missed ya!

Busy with my bird, missed you too though baby.

It's interesting that no one has mentioned the rampant gun culture, or is it just not considered an issue, seen as these shootings are bordering on un-trendy these days?

He took weapons from a legally deputized law enforcement officer. It's obvious we need to ban cops with guns, for the children.

Well it sure sucks but hell Wisconsin sure has racked up its massive gun killings this year.

Two weekends ago some religious nut job pissed off went on a rampage 10 miles from my house at the very same hotel I had my wedding reception about 9 years ago.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wauk/mar05/311203.asp

That was a mess in a community that hasn't had a murder in a long, long time. Its unheard of really.

Then lets not forget this nut job who lit up the Northern Wisconsin woods during gun/deer season this last fall. Shit had to run out and get my self a couple 30 round clips for this year for the ole 7mm mag incase I run into some fuck in my deer stand.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/dec04/288172.asp

Busy with my bird, missed you too though baby.

It's interesting that no one has mentioned the rampant gun culture, or is it just not considered an issue, seen as these shootings are bordering on un-trendy these days?Good god, you're right. They were close to Canada! Nearly a third of those bastards have a gun!

Also, as has aready been pointed out, the weapons were taken (by force) from a (active? - do we know that yet) police officer. [Although I still disagree with the jackass characterization.]

MI = Michigan
MN = Minnesota (where this happened)*taps chest* My bad.

I doubt there's anyone on here that will deny our culture is more violent than some (many?) others, Halo. I would have a difficult time trying to make a case against such an accusation. However, it's really a moot point. Unless you're actually providing some course of action to reverse that, then you're really just out here slinging shit.

Anyways, back to the issue at hand. Does anyone know specifically how he attained the weapons and bulletproof vest? While I'm sure it's common for cops to take home their sidearms, it seems strange that they would keep a bulletproof vest around. One would think that would be in a locker or something at the police station, granted, I'm sure it's possible that their police station didn't have a locker room, or was tight on storage space. I'm just theorizing, but I would guess it would be difficult to obtain an officer's weapons without that officer acting irresponsibly. I've been looking around for information, but since the shooter was juvenile, the FBI's not releasing much.

It's common at least here for cops to take their full uniforms and any extra gears they might use home. Most (at least the ones in my old neighborhood) drive their police vehicles to/from home as well. I know that's different in many states with larger police departments.

So I don't think it would be too hard to obtain them, especially from a family members house.

It's common at least here for cops to take their full uniforms and any extra gears they might use home. Most (at least the ones in my old neighborhood) drive their police vehicles to/from home as well. I know that's different in many states with larger police departments.

So I don't think it would be too hard to obtain them, especially from a family members house.

I'd like to see someone try to get my 2 firearms out of their safe.

If I was a cop, and I had children, killing me would still not provide access to my weapons.

It's interesting that no one has mentioned the rampant gun culture...

Halo's just mad because he can't have any firearms (sorry I'm not feeling well today..inner troll emerging).

Yes, that must be it.

Well, it happens once, twice, three times-a-lady, and you have to start wondering. As much as the die-hard gun fans like to insist that the gun-culture over there is A-OK, you really have to start hesitating after all the disgusting slaughter.

Yea I just ordered a new Benelli Nova Pump 12 gauge with Leuopold 1X4, 2 extra shot expansion ring, and a recoil reducing system. Should be a sweet gun added to my already ever so large collection.

I guess I don't live in fear. The disgusting slaughter is just that..horrible. However it doesn't make up for the fact people kill people, not guns. Timothy Mcvae (sp) killed more people in less time with drums full of "shit".

Ibudin's info:
Location: The Gates of Hell
Posts: 666
Coincidence? Some say no...

Firearms permeate our society to the point where the situation is impossible to undo. Sales should be (and in part are) controlled along various lines, but there's no getting rid of them. In this case, however, the grandfather left his weapon(s) accessable to a socially ostracized, neo-Nazi wannabe teenager. That's what we call a significant error in judgment.

Well, it happens once, twice, three times-a-lady, and you have to start wondering. As much as the die-hard gun fans like to insist that the gun-culture over there is A-OK, you really have to start hesitating after all the disgusting slaughter.

More people are killed daily by cars, swimming pools, and step ladders than yearly by guns. The crux of my annoyance with gun control activists is their gross exageration of what is ultimately a very small problem, and how virtually every measure taken to address that problem is targeted at segments of the population that aren't suffering from it.

The absolute best things you could do ever to reduce the possibly of a tragic death in any industrialized nation is better driver education and changing the traffic cop paradigm from penalizing speeding to penalizing reckless and disruptive behavior. Guns are so much less a factor that you'd need to reduce traffic deaths by something lik 95% to begin to justify worrying about it, long after hiring more life guards and mandatory jail time for old people that fall over.

Malse, the counter-argument is that cars have a primary purpose other than killing people. Something that, for the most part, handguns don't. There isn't a lot of deer-hunting with .38 snubnoses.

Of course, that's just the argument. I like my Glock 23c.

the counter-argument is that cars have a primary purpose other than killing people. Something that, for the most part, handguns don't.


Statistics don't lie. It's becoming more apparent in these troubled times that we should be arming our frontline troops in Iraq with environmentally friendly Subaru SUVs. The crumple zones will insure occupant safety and the standard passenger side airbag means better support for the gunner riding shotgun. Thanks to new Eco-Tech engines, we can expect at least 3.6 Kills per Gallon out of the 2005s.

If you're concerned with the primary purpose of a device, you are long past reasoning about the real-world effect of it. Either you want to safe lives, or you are piggybacking your own personal agenda on overhyped shock news. Besides, the "primary purpose" of handguns has always been self-defense. If you want to kill someone, get a rifle. Most people shot with handguns survive.

Look man, I'm a gun owner; but even I'm not so stupid as to think that my handguns weren't designed primarily for the purpose of accellerating pieces of lead to a velocity sufficient enough to kill, or at a minimum, wound, humans.

This is calling a spade a spade here.

Malse is from Texas. What do you expect?

Besides, the "primary purpose" of handguns has always been self-defense.

Look man, I'm a gun owner; but even I'm not so stupid as to think that my handguns weren't designed primarily for the purpose of accellerating pieces of lead to a velocity sufficient enough to kill, or at a minimum, wound, humans.


Um, that's the same thing. If I have to use a handgun to defend myself, I hope it is designed to accellerate pieces of lead fast enough to kill what I am aiming at.

I am a registered gun owner, with a CC permit due to the nature of my work. I own multiple handguns also due to the natue of how easy they are concealed depending on how you have to dress for the weather (I can carry my Sig P226 or H&K USP compact easily in winter when you wear a coat, but in the summer the smaller Sig P239 fits my needs).

And Palli, the only real popular handgun I see around here for deer hunting is a single shot .223 (allthough the law states as long as you have a 7" or longer barrel and .357 or greater it is acceptable).

Personally, I'm all for guns. I have no problem with people owning guns to kill other people with. So, don't take this as me saying anything else.

But, if you only intend to defend yourself, there are a lot of more effective ways than a handgun. Like Malse pointed out, unless it's a shotgun, your typical person is probably going to miss anyway. A handgun in a house is probably more likely to lead to an accidental injury or be stolen and used in a crime, than actually protect anyone.

Hell, a shotgun with rubber shells or one of those beanbag guns will drop someone as quickly as anything else. Guns are great and all, but don't be fooled; most of the prominent support for them as personal defense is being used to further other agendas.

A handgun in a house

I work on the road most of the year. Usually in cabinets under overpasses in such lovely areas as under 288 or I610 in downtown Houston or I20 down around Capital blvd in Atlanta or downtown Durham, NC - All at night. You know, those places where everything has bars on it windows.

Not places where a shotgun is easily concealed or easily in reach if you need it (Not to mention it freaks out the DOT inspectors).

Your point about home defense is true. A shotgun is usually better suited there.

Is it a bad sign when you read the words "Headshots" from the article and instantly think of counter-strike?

"It looks like they were shooting at people's heads,"
Oh man, again I thought of counter-strike.

"His fellow pupils said he was sometimes teased because he dressed in black."
I have to ask though, does SOMETIMES drive you to go on a shooting rampage? I doubt it, they probably picked on him constantly. Then one day he simply snapped, and didn't wanna live anymore, but rather than suiciding alone, he took out people he hated. That would be my guess... Sorry if I interrupted your conversation of guns.

This reminds me of a movie I saw recently. Bang Bang you're dead. Interesting story, it shows how cruel kids can be and what can cause teens to pop and want to commit these acts.

The thing I don't understand is that when I was in school razzing, hazing, and picking on eachother was just part of the experience I never once feared someone would shoot me and likewise when I was a freshmen I never contemplated killing someone. What is different now vs. then?

What is different now vs. then?

Nothing. There have been shootings and knifings and lynchings and hangings and beatings in schools as long as there have been large public schools. It simply was not wildly publicized as SHOCKING IMMIMENT DANGER TO ALL YOUR CHILDREN until the last 20 years or so.

Tune in tonight to Action News to find out what item that could be in your home right now could kill your children!

oh noz!

save me from the macaroni it's a killah

God I hope this moron didn't play video games.

More probably playing pen and paper RPG, Vampires most surely, he was dressed in black afterall! :rolleyes:

Nothing. There have been shootings and knifings and lynchings and hangings and beatings in schools as long as there have been large public schools. It simply was not wildly publicized as SHOCKING IMMIMENT DANGER TO ALL YOUR CHILDREN until the last 20 years or so. Same goes for poverty, war, discrimination, sexual crimes, just about anything... the world has been as bad as it is now for quite some time, give or take, just the media coverage to provide awareness was no where near what it is today...

Just a refresher to the gun debate:

The weapon used was a police service pistol that the kid store from his grandpop. He also could have stolen his grandpop's chainsaw or car (which he did anyway) and ran people down or used whatever was available at the time when he blew a cerebral headgasket. They would have been just as dead and the kid would have been no less deranged. Noone will demand a 10 day waiting period and background check for a car or chainsaw.

Society needs something to blame, and thanks to science, there is the ready means of deduction to speculate on a culprit. No longer can we say that it was just an accident or unfortunate turn of events or that the kid was just plain fucked up and needed a hug. Now there is accountability even if only on a speculative level...so there is someone to sue. Usually society is satisfied with a large cash settlement paid from a wealthy entity which probably was extremely removed from the tragedy without knowledge of what the cause of the problem really was. Thus the media and it's quest for truth and ratings.....

" Society needs something to blame, and thanks to science, there is the ready means of deduction to speculate on a culprit."

When the real culprit is society itself. It's not guns that are the problem, it's our society's view of violence...it's accepting of violence in everyday life and media. There are plenty of examples to draw from but TV is the most convenient.

Show a man beating a women, shooting another person, or a bloody corpse...not a problem. Show Dennis Franz's butt or Janet Jackson's breast (albiet with a covered nipple) and you have mass outrage. That we even allow parents to bring kids into a R movie in a theater is a telling fact (granted, they will still have the freedom to rent or buy a movie and expose their kids to it at home).

You couple this acceptance of violence with the availibilty of guns in our culture...well, you're seeing the outcome. Until American's accept that it's a deep problem within our society, it's not going to get any better. Making it difficult for normal citizens to get guns is no silver bullet...especially when it will still be so easy for the criminals and pyscotic to get them.

Personally i think alot of the kids nowadays kids are overly neurotic. If something happened when i was in school that was upsetting, we'd get over it and learn from it. Nowadays, something happens, and the kids have to have psychiatrists, counselors, ect to help them "cope".
Of course, we actually went outside and had fun and did stuff in those days rather than stay inside like so many seem to do. Not just the kids tho..Way too many adults that are no better. To quote "Demolition man", methinks this world has turned into a screwed up, brady-bunch version of itself...(or something like that..hehe)

Fact is there are evil people all over the world You can thank Adam and Eve for that. Fact is you cant get rid of weapons to defend countries or single people until you get rid of Evil people, you cant get rid of evil people until u get the dangerous weapon out of there hand. Catch 22? I was watching something on the history channel a cuople days ago about guns to come in the future.. and there new security features.. I personally like the one where there is a special watch u have to wear and ifyou dont have that watch on the gun will not fire.
Heres my opinion for stopping school Shootings.

First off.. we need medal detectors at every single door at every single school .. follow by officers with hand held medal detectors to look through kids bags and to pat them down. Then After lunch period and the kids go out for Recess they come back in to a PAT/Full Body Search. Ya know just incase they somehow wanted to sneak in a gun durring recess. We should have a officer in every single class room and two officers in the bad classes (you know the class that was specially made at everyschool to put all the trouble making kids in. It was HomeMek (SP) at my school). Then we need to add a extra hour to the school schedule so at the end of the day all the kids will meet together inside the GYM so that the police officers can comb over the school and lockers to make sure nothing dangerous is left behind. Like I always say you can never be to ssafe..... WHAT WAS THAT!?


CRITICISM ROCKS!

This whole situation is outta control. We can all say this should be done and that should be done, I'm not any different. Grandpa coulda put a trigger lock on the gun and kept it in a safe spot. Coulda locked up the ammo. The kid coulda had better parents, teachers whom he coulda talked to before it got to this point. We can even point to the media showing things on the news which make things more glamorous and such, create a noteriety. I just know that I wasn't worried about being gunned down or knifed in the halls of school while I was there.

Now I have to worry about if my kid is gonna piss off an unstable kid, or if he looks too long at someone, or accidentally runs into someone while rounding a corner. If people would just step back and actually care maybe the world would be a better place. Watch sometime when you go to the mall. No one holds open doors, no one is courteous any more, no one makes room for people. I'm not saying you have to a puss, and let people walk over you, but when there is respect involved people realize that, and most have a tendancy to return it. Not many people do this, but when many of us were younger there was a level respect for others. And it came back your way. So I didn't have to worry about being kniffed or gunned down, and I'm trying to instill that resepct for others in my kids.

Think about it sometime. All the stories like this have something like, he was the quiet one, no one talked with him, or he didn't seem to have many friends, or "Described as a loner". This kid was even more so, he had an admiration for Hitler and was teased cause he wore all black. Boy there is a reason to rake someone over the coals.

I feel for the families who have to deal with the loss of their children. The world hasn't always been this way. We are just making more efficient ways of killing each other, and making very easy for these ways to be acquired by the wrong people. :(

I wouldn't say "this whole situation is out of control." Compared to being gunned down in a school shooting, highschoolers are probably one hundred times more likely to commit suicide, if not more. When I was in highschool (this was rather recent, mind you), we had replaced fire drills with school shooting drills. The only time suicide was brought up was in my 9th grade health class, and then never again after that. Columbine was referenced on a near-daily basis. So what gives? Well, you can't nationalize the suicide of one kid. School shootings, on the other hand, make for extremely newsworthy (and profitable) material. Hmmm...

It makes more sense to avoid the sensationalism and focus on much more important and dangerous issues. If we want to start preserving and improving our children's lives, we need to avoid the distractions and narrow our attention on much more pressing issues.

It makes more sense to avoid the sensationalism and focus on much more important and dangerous issues. If we want to start preserving and improving our children's lives, we need to avoid the distractions and narrow our attention on much more pressing issues.

So this isn't considered a pressing issue? The fact that kids can be gunned* down this easily isn't a pressing issue. I guess I would be interested to know what a pressing issue is if the fact that any child can pick up a gun and kill people they don't like because they were being "teased" or a "loner", or a teacher gave them an 'F' (that last one wasn't in the story, just added it point out that if a child, kid, adolesent views something as terrible, or something they don't agree with this could happen).

*I'm using guns cause it is specific to this thread.

I always hold the door open for people behind me.. the problem is someimtes 50 people go through the door and i feel like a official Dooropener

And they don't tip ya or say Thank you. :(

So this isn't considered a pressing issue? The fact that kids can be gunned* down this easily isn't a pressing issue.

Correct. It's an easy thing to get all worked up about, but when you consider that the chances of this actually happening to a person are something around 0.0000000001% or so, it just doesn't make sense to spend a whole lot of time and resources on it, when you could direct those efforts elsewhere and do a lot more good.

All I'm saying is this: you need to prioritize. It sucks that this kind of stuff happens, sure, but there are a ton of things that are a hundred times more dangerous to our kids that are, for the most part, neglected. Since we cannot direct an infinite amount of effort into every one of the world's dangers, we must decide which of those dangers to focus on, and what resources they shall be allocated.

but there are a ton of things that are a hundred times more dangerous to our kids that are, for the most part, neglected.

Agreed, like driving regulations :(. Around here the leading cause of death for teenagers are trees (crashing into them for various reasons) and drugs. As for guns there are plenty of them around in all of the pickup trucks because of hunting in the area/region.

Maybe this is getting blown outta proportion, and people may be misunderstanding were some are coming from. I'm just saying that we can all sit here and say 'what if.....'. All I'm saying is that it shouldn't be that difficult to go down to Target/Walmart or something like that BUY a FRIGGIN trigger lock for $3 bucks and put it on the gun. Put one key in the safe deposit box and the other on your key ring. Boom there ya go, kid doesn't shot someone with YOUR gun. Not that tough is it?

I realize that the percentage of this happening is against investing time/resourses due to something like this. I'm not saying, get the cops out there going through everyone's home and collecting everyone's firearms. I'm just saying that a 15 min trip could have prevented or stiffeled this. Honestly, I would rather see more officers on the streets driving around so that I don't have to worry about that teen age kid driving his/her car 55 MPH past my house, it's a 25MPH btw. I'm more worried about my kids getting hit by a car than taking a slug. I'm just saying that if people were to practice simple easy gun saftey it would reduce the accidents and the on purpose killings, due to guns. I'm not saying they are going to go away. I'm not saying we need to have classes in school. I'm not saying that we need to collect all the guns out there in untrained hands (this was an ex officers grandson BTW). What I am saying is that incidents like this could be averted by using some common sense. I know that common sense isn't the strong suit for some people in the world, but how hard is it?

Sorry the train of thought just derailed.... I'll stop now.

A gun lock might or might not have stopped this from happening. I grew up around guns, my father had gun locks on all the guns and from the time I was 7 I knew where the keys to all the locks where at and the ammo. The real way to keep this from happening is to teach your children not to touch the gun. My parents made it abundantly clear that I touched their guns without permission if I lived through the event I would wish I had not. Every kid is teased in school its a right of passage/part of growing up it happens.

Revellie, you have hit the nail on the head. My father didn't have gun locks. Actually he taught me about guns, gun safety, and then showed me what they can do, damage wise. I got my fair share of harrassment, and I didn't grab a gun and march my arse into school and kill people. I lived, learned, and have moved on. I will be teaching my kids the same respect for guns.

I have to echo what Xaria said. My father and grandfather taught me how to handle a weapon safely, taught me how to shoot handguns, rifles andshotguns. We never had locks on the guns at our house. I currently own several guns and have taught my children how to use them safely and how to handle them. I have a young grandson who will be taught gun safety and will go through a gun safety class as soon as he is old enough.

I don't believe it's about the weapon used, I think the point here is that a student(s) have become so numbed to the consequences or perhaps so frustrated that they don't care, that they are going over the line and taking the lives of other people. This is not about guns... it's about attitudes and a complete lack of respect for life.

The problem here begins at home with parents who have not taken responsibility for teaching their children, restraining them and making them learn the lessons that most of us learned. Why do children get out of control? There's no discipline in the home and the schools are certainly not going to enforce anything.

When was the last time a student was paddled in school for breaking the rules? Doesn't happen.. at least not in this state. They get sent to the principal's office or detention or something else that's more politically correct.

If you are looking for the WHY, look at the upbringing. I learned that it was wrong to steal, cheat, kill and do all the other things society does not tolerate. However, as time goes on, nobody wants to take responsibility and we will see more of this kind of thing in the future.

I don't want to say it... but it's only going to get worse as time goes on, until society gets their can full of it and does something... whether it's politically correct or not.

*tosses two coppers into the hat*