This story is just starting... but it really looks bad.

Murtha has made some pretty strong accusations. These have been semi confirmed by USMC officials and the fact that parties involved are under investigation. 15 Iraqis were killed including 4 women and 5 children, austensibly from US fire.
What Murtha is saying is that this was a revenge execution, that the Marines opened fire in rage when one of their comrades was killed by an IED.

If what he has charged has merit, this is basically Mai Lai redux.

If it doesnt, then he should be removed from congress.

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1808360.php

If that is indeed what happened the responsibility is not only on the troops on the ground but also on the government that placed them in the situation of fighting an insurgent war with conventional troops.

When I see things like this I can't place much of the blame on the individual soldier in combat, they are kids, 18, 19 and not much older. These kids are trained to fight against an enemy they can SEE. The problem is they don't see the enemy but the enemy see's them. Those Marines live every day under an overwhelming amount of stress to say the least. Always on hyper alertness looking for anything out of place, watching their buddies lose legs, arms and seeing them literally torn to shreds by an enemy that they can't even hit back.

I read that and it puts me on the verge of tears to think that we have people in charge of this government who have sold out to defense contractors and corporate interests as a generation of kids has their lives thrown into chaos because of a strategy that is designed to do nothing more than create a war that is designed to go on forever. A war with no clear battle lines and no clear strategy other than to patrol and draw fire, while our government officials golf in scotland, buy yachts with payoff money, bitch about gay marriage and people who buy dildos, while young boys and girls are killed and maimed.

Well guess what, this is what happens when 19 year old kids who have guns, grenades and rockets see their friends get killed by someone they can't see.

L2 you are not correct when you say this is MyLai happening again, its the whole fucking Vietnam war repeating itself and we bought it hook line and sinker.

Murtha was on Hardball tonight. He focused heavily on the pressures of combat and how they can affect soldiers that are untrained for the duties they're handed or on their nth rotation.

What I don't understand is why Women and Children were nearby after a Bomb explodes.
I don't know about you but when I hear a huge explosion, I usually get out of the area, not go see the GI that has been blown in half, and try to steal parts off of his equipment...
And this is nothing like Vietnam.
We aren't even close to Vietnam in this situation. This conflict has gone on for less than 5 years. How can you draw conclusions like that?
It took the US 16 years from the Beginning of the Revolutionary War until the Ratification of the Bill of Rights.
Yet we want this country to be up and running in 3 years.
Seems kinda silly.

What I don't understand is why Women and Children were nearby after a Bomb explodes.

They live there.


And this is nothing like Vietnam. We aren't even close to Vietnam in this situation. This conflict has gone on for less than 5 years. How can you draw conclusions like that?

I would guess you have limited knowledge of history of the Vietnam war.


It took the US 16 years from the Beginning of the Revolutionary War until the Ratification of the Bill of Rights.
Yet we want this country to be up and running in 3 years.

Theres a good comparison the current war in Iraq to the American revolution and the formation of the American government. Grasping at straws is taken to new hieghts.

However, let's take a short look and use the American revolution to compare the two. Strong developed nation sends in highly trained and well equipped military forces to subdue an insurgency. Insurgents win!

And this is nothing like Vietnam.
We aren't even close to Vietnam in this situation. This conflict has gone on for less than 5 years. How can you draw conclusions like that?



Obviously, you did not serve in Viet Nam. And, wtf has the time period of less than five years have to do with anything?

In Viet Nam, the NVA wore uniforms but the Viet Cong (the insurgents) did not. The stress of not knowing if the person waving at you was carrying a grenade, of not knowng if the people lining the street were sympathetic to the insurgency or to the government forces, does not take more than a couple weeks to start affecting how you behave and think and react to your surroundings.

You can contrast all the political rationales used to justify and argue against sending our troops into a war, and you can look at the unfolding events as the wars were prosecuted, and there will be many paralells between the two conflicts as the debate rolls along; anti-war protests at home, wavering support in the halls of Congress, the effect of the war's impact on our relations with other countries both ally and foe, and so on.

The topic at hand is one of criminal behavior during a time of war, and the stresses that can lead an otherwise normal group of Americans to act in such a manner. Not having an easily identified enemy, knowing that any commonly used area is subject to an attack, having to constantly be watching for any sign of booby-trap/IED's all adds to an extraordinary amount of stress that there really is no available method to train troops to handle.

This is very much like Viet Nam, as far as the experience the soldier on the ground is having. And that is what really matters.

So we should just throw up our hands, and give up. Not finish what we tried to start. Pull completely out, and say. "Sorry Iraq. We gave it a good try, but this looks too much like a conflict we "lost" 16 years ago. We're pulling out, have fun trying to clean up the mess we made."
Now there's a message to the insurgents.
Here's something I've thought about for a while.
Isn't it amazing how many IED's get to go off and kill our soldiers?
These things are being hidden in Garbage, dead animals, derelict vehicles.
Why isn't someone doing something to clear the streets of all the stuff the insurgents are using to disguise these things in?
That way a big pile of Garbage would stand out as, "Something that needs to be avoided".
And as for the soldiers causing civilian casualties, that's something that happens in war. If they did it intentionally, I.E. let's kill these innocent people as retribution for our buddy dying, then yes, prosecute them.
If the Bomb went off, and suddenly there was a group of scavangers swarming in to get the "Trophies", I can't feel any sympathy, sorry.

Why isn't someone doing something to clear the streets of all the stuff the insurgents are using to disguise these things in?

I am surprised you are able to dress yourself in the morning Sixee.

Putting two and two together shouldn't be so difficult.

Lokase

Here's something I've thought about for a while.
Isn't it amazing how many IED's get to go off and kill our soldiers?
These things are being hidden in Garbage, dead animals, derelict vehicles.
Why isn't someone doing something to clear the streets of all the stuff the insurgents are using to disguise these things in?
That way a big pile of Garbage would stand out as, "Something that needs to be avoided".

Think about this for a while. Right now due to the fact that every pile of garbage, every junk car, every dead animal, every thing that is just plainly out of place is suspect as a delivery point for an IED then how long will it take to remove each one? Maybe 2-4 hours each because each one has to be examined first to make certain it can be removed without exploding. So given 25-30 years your plan might work.

So theres your answer and I give many thanks you are not in a position of leadership over combat troops.

Wow, ask a simple question, and get called names.

http://www.securityprousa.com/bodiro.html

Any questions?

Yes..

How in hell are you supposed to approach every pile of garbage in a 3rd world countries major cities with one of these? Seeing as how fast Rummy was able to respond with up-armoring the vehicles and getting Body armor to the guys, I wouldnt tingle with anticipation.
Generally from what ive seen the bad guys put them in innocent looking things by the side of the road and wait for a humvee to pass by or whatever and then detonate from afar. Aint technology great!

Anyway. if you have HBO, Baghdad ER on this sunday.

I agree that the whole ramping up the armor on the vehicles thing took a while to get going.
But having been in the Army, I can tell you, the average Humvee back in the early 90's wasn't designed to get hit with the things they were getting hit with by the insurgents. Only the Military Police had armored Humvees. Now we are seeing bigger and more shaped IEDs to combat that.
That's why I think robots are the way to go. If you blow them up, no problem.
There's a show that comes on the Discovery chnnel after Mythbusters on Wed nights called FutureWeapons.

http://www.dhadm.com/mediaHolder.php?id=665

Here's a clip about guns that can shoot around corners.
This past week they were showing Robots that can be mounted with grenade launchers, M-16s, M60s, all remote operated by soldiers.

But I'm just stupid beyond all comprehension, and I need to stop to live, whatever that means, like it says in my anonymous negative Rep.

Well... once you get enough posts, you can see all those anons
Yet I digress

The robots would be good.. except.
As I was watching a documentary not too long ago.. One of scenes was the convoy was rolling in Baghdad along a highway. The lead vehicle stopped because it saw something suspicious and traffic on this highway had to be stopped for like an hour in both directions. Turned out to be nothing.
The point is that they cant stop and investigate everything.. they would be paralyzed by precaution. The gunner on the humvee said, "Some times you just have to close your eyes, hold your breath and pray" (As you pass by something)

The other problem is the mobility of these robots. How durable are they? Can they withstand life in the back of a military vehicle? Is there room in a Humvee, Abrahms, or Striker? What is the replacability cost of these? Do you really want to give a $400,000 remote controlled grabber to an Army of bored 20 year old?

The other problem is the mobility of these robots. How durable are they? Can they withstand life in the back of a military vehicle? Is there room in a Humvee, Abrahms, or Striker? What is the replacability cost of these? Do you really want to give a $400,000 remote controlled grabber to an Army of bored 20 year old?

Quite mobile, and durable, according to the show I saw.
They are basically suped up Radio Controlled mini tanks. They stand 2 1/2 to 3 feet tall and you can mount a variety of weaponry on them.

I'm not sure you understand the way the Army does things. You only get certain jobs or positions in the Army, if you show the capability to handle the job or task.
As a 67T I was just a helicopter mechanic. But after showing capability and responsibility, I was moved into the position of Crew Chief. Still a mechanic, but I was assigned to fly with a particular aircraft, responsible for any cargo or passengers, as well as any scheduled maintenance. No increase in rank, just an increase in responsibilities. :eek:
I'm betting the Army could also do something similar with the training on these robots. The guy running the robot would have to show a certain ammt of responsibility and capability before being allowed to pilot 1. Prior to that, they would just be a mechanic on 1, so they would get the background training on how 1 operates and functions before being considered to pilot.
And before you start screaming about cost, if I remember corrctly, the robots I saw on Futureweapons cost about $15K-$20K, substantially less than the average Humvee, APC, or soldier's life.

All this talk reminds me of my days helping my brother and his team back in 93-96 participate in this competition http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/AUVS/IARCLaunchPoint.html
We placed 1st one year, it was fun. It was sponsored by the military and is still held yearly. My brother's participation and success in this competition gained him much notice with some research groups....too bad I was just a grunt and board stuffer :(

It's impressive to see how far robotics have come since the early and mid 90's and it's neat to see some of things I saw in those competitions in place today.

Let me add two things here. My father was a veitnam vet. I have managed to pry two stories out of him to this day. One was about how he was forced to shoot a child because a woman pulled the pin from a grenade handed it to the child and the child ran toward the troops. The other is how he was the ma deuce gunner on the back of a deuce and a half that was leading a supply convoy. There was a group of men in civilian clothes that appeared from the road side. He started firing before they did and he did not take the time to identify them before firing. When a person is in that situation it is hard to second guess their actions.

I have read that nearly all of the IED's are triggered using cell phones. I dont need to elaborate on the mechanism here but suffice to say if this is the case, there is no excuse for every single military vehicle in Iraq not having a mobile cell phone jamming device. It is pretty damn simple and if there isn't something like this available, then I will be starting a new business soon.

Because Fandros wondered at some point in the past, yes, I am an RF engineer.

every single military vehicle in Iraq not having a mobile cell phone jamming device

F that it's even simpler. go to every cell tower in the nation and take a hammer to the output fiber or cut the twisted pair wich I imagine is the main infrastructure over there. FYI every cellphone goes to hardline sooner or later.
In simple just un-plug the whole damn cell phone system. decent people will still have the landline system to use and the "Iraqi government" (use that term loosely)can plug it all back in the day we leave!

As far as hidaitha goes I personally hold no blame for the guys over there and all the fuckedup/twisted shit they are having to face and endure. I never served in a war but it's not hard to imagine the psycological nightmare we are putting our people thru. when in Rome right?
I'll always and vocally place blame the Jackasses that sent them there in the first place!

And then insurgents would most likely find another way to set off IEDs, either proximity or a wire connection and detonator set up. Though the cell phone jammer/cutting the hardline connection of the towers is a sound one. It would at least give us time to remove some of them before the next wave of IEDs had changed trigger mechanisms.

People were killed...during a war? WTF!

That's it, I'm writing my congressman! Maybe he can tell me what's the civilian contractor beheadings vs. innocent women and children count up to now?

and...
bitch about gay marriage and people who buy dildos...
What did I miss? Shemp in town again?

Very true cloud they would probably go back to throwing little kids in the street in front our convoy's in an effort to get them to stop while they manually trigger them again.
But anything we can do to save the lives of our brothers and sisters over there during this Phallacy of a war is worth it!

Wtf.

I dont think you guys get it. This wasnt bystanders/collateral damage/casualties. This was a full out execution of unarmed women and children by US Marines (if premilinary reports are true)

That isnt war. Thats murder.

These Marines are going to stand trial for this. And if they are found guilty, then they will be executed.

from http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1198862-2,00.html
The military's initial report stated that Terrazas and 15 civilians were killed in a roadside blast and that shortly afterward, the Marines came under attack and returned fire, killing eight insurgents. But as Time reported in March on the basis of interviews with 28 individuals, including military officials, the families of the victims, human-rights investigators and local doctors, much of that account is dubious. Members of Congress, as well as military sources, have confirmed the critical details of Time's initial report—that after gunning down the five fleeing the taxi, a few members of Kilo Company moved through four homes along nearby streets, killing 19 men, women and children. The Marines contend they took small-arms fire from at least one house, but as Time's story detailed in March, only one of the 19 victims was found with a weapon.

These Marines are going to stand trial for this. And if they are found guilty, then they will be executed.




As they should be if it is true. Marines (what ever the pay scale doesn't matter) are paid to be professional, if they just went on a rampage killing, then justice will be served upon them.

Wtf.

I dont think you guys get it. This wasnt bystanders/collateral damage/casualties. This was a full out execution of unarmed women and children by US Marines (if premilinary reports are true)

That isnt war. Thats murder.

These Marines are going to stand trial for this. And if they are found guilty, then they will be executed.

from http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1198862-2,00.html

In one aspect you are incorrect and in another you are correct. You are correct, it is war and it is murder, and murder happens in war.

This type of situation is not unique to the war in Iraq nor is it unique in the way that US Marines did it. I often wonder why people are so shocked that this would happen in a war, after all, there are 18, 19 and 20 year old boys running around with guns and they are allowed to shoot people...thats the basic tenant of war, really it is. Its not much more to the people who face it every waking and sleeping moment of every goddamned day they are there.

Why is it so shocking that a group of young boys allowed to carry automatic weapons and who are allowed to kill with those weapons would do this?

Should we believe that the situation they are placed in gives them a greater level of self control?

The situation they are in should give them a better understanding of stress reaction to watching their friends die from an unseen enemy?

Those boys over there are being eaten alive every day by that fucking war, that fucking war that has become so obvious a sham perpetrated on this country. A war designed by people who never knew the true reality of the act itself other than what they read in a book. Who never looked beyond the profits they could bring to their financial supporters.

Those responsible for this act sit in Washington DC and those responsible for covering it up sit in a command position over those boys.

Every politician who blabbered to get us there and yet knew that what they were saying was not true...those are the ones responsible.

I think most of you all should just STFU

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/27/AR2006052700846_pf.html

Mr. Murtha's Rush to Judgment

Sunday, May 28, 2006; B06



A year ago I was charged with two counts of premeditated murder and with other war crimes related to my service in Iraq. My wife and mother sat in a Camp Lejeune courtroom for five days while prosecutors painted me as a monster; then autopsy evidence blew their case out of the water, and the Marine Corps dropped all charges against me ["Marine Officer Cleared in Killing of Two Iraqis," news story, May 27, 2005].

So I know something about rushing to judgment, which is why I am so disturbed by the remarks of Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) regarding the Haditha incident ["Death Toll Rises in Haditha Attack, GOP Leader Says," news story, May 20]. Mr. Murtha said, "Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

In the United States, we have a civil and military court system that relies on an investigatory and judicial process to make determinations based on evidence. The system is not served by such grand pronouncements of horror and guilt without the accuser even having read the investigative report.

Mr. Murtha's position is particularly suspect when he is quoted by news services as saying that the strain of deployment "has caused them [the Marines] to crack in situations like this." Not only is he certain of the Marines' guilt but he claims to know the cause, which he conveniently attributes to a policy he opposes.

Members of the U.S. military serving in Iraq need more than Mr. Murtha's pseudo-sympathy. They need leaders to stand with them even in the hardest of times. Let the courts decide if these Marines are guilty. They haven't even been charged with a crime yet, so it is premature to presume their guilt -- unless that presumption is tied to a political motive.

ILARIO PANTANO

Jacksonville, N.C.

The writer served as a Marine enlisted man in the Persian Gulf War and most recently as a platoon commander in Iraq.

I forsee Murtha getting an ass whooping from Godzilla.

Im not prejuding the guilt.

But Im also 100% not in agreement that IF it happened it is ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM justified. No way and no how.
Whatever that case with the Marine above, it is not the same thing as here. They are two seperate, isolated cases. To say that because he was innocent, then these other guys are innocent makes no logical sense, unless you are trying to say there is a major problem with the investigators for the Marine Corp.
The case with Pantaro came about because one of his squad members filed a complaint against him. He later recanted on the witness stand.
Which is well and good... but what the fuck does it have to do with Haditha?

First off, the Viet Cong did not have cell phones or remote controls, and they kicked the shit out of us with booby traps; an insurgency is as strong as their faith in their cause, and they will find ways to fight.

Second, every war had it's Hidatha. Has My Lai been forgotten so soon? The stresses of war are enormous, and modern day warfare has become even more psychologically treacherous due to the nature of guerilla warfare. Not knowing where or from whom the next threat to your life is coming from can lead to all kinds of mental crises; I empathize with the mind games these troops are going through, but I cannot condone murder of innocents as was the case in My Lai and appears to be the case here.

Sadly, the man who likes to boast of being the Commander in Chief will never accept any responsibility for such acts being committed in the pursuit of his goals.

there is no excuse for every single military vehicle in Iraq not having a mobile cell phone jamming device.

Anyone else remember the "Plan for Victory" last year that included the amazing and wonderful penetration of US Cellular phone companies into Iraq as a shining example of the good we're doing?

we can jam their cell phones, look for the trigger men, etc etc, but the only way to be sure to stop them is by killing them. Dead men don't build bombs, they don't 'push the button' and they don't solicit other middle eastern countries for more money to make weapons.

Kill the terrorists and cut their funding. Just jamming the signal makes them find new ways. And getting back to the topic. Once again Murtha needs to shut his fucking pie hole.

If these marines did it, and it was in fact a crime, they will pay for it. If it was not a crime, and this is some really fucked up set up, they will be exonerated. Let the justice system take it's course before screaming for their heads. You want so desperately for us to give terrorists all the rights, but when it's some of our own, you setence them before the trial even starts.

Murtha can go fuck himself either way.

'Why is it so shocking that a group of young boys allowed to carry automatic weapons and who are allowed to kill with those weapons would do this?'

- Right, but when a bunch of "terrorists" kill 15 US citizens, you're all up in arms about it. But what did you fucking expect? We're occupying their country.

So using your own argument: we can't blame terrorists, they're surrounded by violence.

Dick. Head.

On a seperate note:


'Kill the terrorists and cut their funding'

- 'Cause that'll work, you fucking hippy.

I'm a hippy?

What the fuck are you smoking? (Aside from pole)

You start putting the leaders of the insurgency in the ground on a regular basis and it tends to discourage them.

You cut the funding they're recieving from Iran, Jordan, Egypt, etc etc etc, and you take the wind out of their sails.

And last time I checked, dead people can't build bombs.

'Why is it so shocking that a group of young boys allowed to carry automatic weapons and who are allowed to kill with those weapons would do this?'

- Right, but when a bunch of "terrorists" kill 15 US citizens, you're all up in arms about it. But what did you fucking expect? We're occupying their country.

So using your own argument: we can't blame terrorists, they're surrounded by violence.

Dick. Head.

Well I see that your mom obviously got a good dose of thalidimide when she was pregnant with you.

Yeah and the British just sit back and drink a cup of tea after a terrorist attack, right? Hey I know...we can ask the people in Belfast and the rest of Northern Ireland or we can ask that guy who ended up dead on the subway platform a few days after the bus and train bombings...remember him?

We all know that the British never react with any type of military or deadly force when they are attacked by terrorists or risk losing their corner of the market on south atlantic sheep farms.

So using your rebuttal we can't blame the IRA, Moslems or Argentinians they just realized that people of your capacity were thriving in England and they figured they had the intellectual upper hand.

Douche. Bag.

Murtha has been speaking up because a) the military was keeping the killings under wraps (a la Pat Tillman); b) Murtha spends a lot of time talking to military folks and has a pretty good idea what's going on over there; c) to emphasize the traumatic causes of actions such as Haditha rather than letting more purely negative viewpoints of our soldiers take hold.

Putting insurgency leaders underground would be nice, but I doubt it would stop anything, as the ultimate leaders are religious. Given the hydra-like nature of the insurgency, its steady momentum, the entrenched view of our soldiers as occupiers and the cultural concept of 'holy war,' a few targeted killings won't make a difference.

Cutting funding is good in the big picture, but the insurgency acquired most of its tools from ammo depots left unguarded. Combine that with the 'rpg and AK-47 in every home' nature of Iraq, and funding isn't a major issue at present.

Given the increasing numbers of insurgents and terrorists -- a situation produced and exacerbated by our continued presence -- the "just kill 'em all" theory of defusing the situation is impractical at best. Killing on a wider scale only furthers the cycle of recruitment and rage.

If only the entirety of modern military history told us that you can never win an occupation by attrition, and attempting to do so results in a catastrophic death toll that inspires hatred in the indigenous population for decades, maybe we could have avoided this quagmire.

Cutting funding is a good joke. They've obviously got a huge industrial machine going to keep those home-made bombs rolling off the assembly line, and what money they do have is funneled directly from the opium exports of Afghanistan, which is now back near its highest production levels ever thanks to us. (we're still there, but we're too busy protecting our future oil pipeline).

Naturally our first "rush to judgement" was construing any sort of rethinking of current policy as "cutting and running like girly cowards" that has long since killed any actual policy debate. Fortunately for the administration, one of their early victories in the War on Terror was to rescind virtually ever treaty that might have held them accountable for war crimes, gutting international law in the process. A few marines may get the firing squad, but you'll never hear a whisper about prosecuting Rumsfeld or Cheney.

I think it's just great that we live in a country where we are allowed to second guess the administration without having jack booted thugs break the door down and cart us off to some undisclosed location to have a "conversation" with a Government Official that involves the use of water, a car battery, and jumper cables with sponges attached to the ends....

Run on Sentences FTW!

I found it interesting that John Gibson on today's Big Story or whatever he calls his Fox program was talking about the My Lai massacre and it's impact on people's opinion of the Viet Nam war, and how this incident could now have the same effect.

I think it is very important for the country to have someone like Murtha right now who has a working knowledge of the military and who is in constant contact with military commanders, rather than have the press doing their usual self-serving "exposes" and the usual attempts at covering up the truth from our folks in the administration.

I also find it somewhat humorous that there are so many who on the one hand are fervent Bush supporters claiming that bringing democracy to the Middle East is exactly what we should be doing; and yet, on the other hand get so incensed at people exercising their rights in a democratic country like we have and speaking their opinions and publishing their stories.

I also find it somewhat humorous that there are so many who on the one hand are fervent Bush supporters claiming that bringing democracy to the Middle East is exactly what we should be doing; and yet, on the other hand get so incensed at people exercising their rights in a democratic country like we have and speaking their opinions and publishing their stories.

I also find that humorous. I think the answer is somewhere in the gross misinterpretation that capitalism is democracy. Advocating democracy seems to often be confused with advocating capitalism and as we all know there is no room in capitalism for dissention or differing opinions other than to tow the "line".

Also since the US is not a Democracy, but a Democratic Republic.
Democracy, it it's purest form, is Mob Rule.
And we all know the majority of people are stupid, don't we?

;)

I think it is very important for the country to have someone like Murtha right now who has a working knowledge of the military and who is in constant contact with military commanders, rather than have the press doing their usual self-serving "exposes" and the usual attempts at covering up the truth from our folks in the administration.




Wrong.. It would be very important for someone WITHOUT an agenda to be interacting with the military commanders. But good luck in finding that. Remember, Murtha has a very strong stance on this war.. plain and simple. Every politician out there will use whatever they can to further thier own career, and that includes Murtha.

As for the comments about them being 18,19, 20 year old kids with weapons, so what do you expect bullshit, give me a break. If this comes out to be true, then this is a case of bad leadership at the NCO and Officer level plain and simple. You act like this was a patrol of a bunch of privates that went on a killing spree. There had to be leadership there, and that is the failure on thier part. And if there was an attempted cover up, then the chain of command up to where that cover up ended should be held accountable.

Amen Shanno.

Every politician out there will use whatever they can to further thier own career...
Might I add also that news agencies and individual journalists will also use whatever they can to aid their respective company sell more newspapers/adds/commercials and or make a name for themselves at the expense of anyone or anything. It doesn't even have to be true. I just has to sell.

Every politician out there will use whatever they can to further thier own career, and that includes Murtha.
That includes just about everyone on the planet: politicians, newsmen, career military, you, me, anyone. Politicians are simply a more visible representation of a broad human tendency.

That is true Thor, but politician are far more adept at it then you or I

So humans in general, suck, and since none of them can live up to any standard, they should all be eradicated.
I volunteer all of the members of the Democratic party to go first.
;)

That is true Thor, but politician are far more adept at it then you or IThing is, you seem to have decided on Murtha's motives, read his mind or whatnot, and then based your reaction off it. The guy is in his 70s and shown a willingness to take (what were at least initially) unpopular stances that opened him to all manner of smears and name calling. These aren't circumstances that fall in line with a "he's just saying it to further his career" point of view.

Come now... Please tell me that you do not think that Murtha is doing this out of the kindness of his heart and has nothing to do with using it as added fuel to his anti-war issues. If he really was a concerned former Marine, then why not be out there attacking the media for basically convicting these men before there is a trial? I am sure he was pissed that they searched the office of William Jefferson, (which I noticed the crickets are chirping on this liberal board), so why is he not out there condemning the media?

Come now... Please tell me that you do not think that Murtha is doing this out of the kindness of his heart and has nothing to do with using it as added fuel to his anti-war issues. If he really was a concerned former Marine, then why not be out there attacking the media for basically convicting these men before there is a trial? I am sure he was pissed that they searched the office of William Jefferson, (which I noticed the crickets are chirping on this liberal board), so why is he not out there condemning the media?

Because the Media is carrying his story to the masses.
You don't bite the hand that feeds you....

Why do you think Murtha has taken an anti war stance?
Political motivations? He has maybe 1 or 2 terms left in his career before the end of his life.

Come now... Please tell me that you do not think that Murtha is doing this out of the kindness of his heart and has nothing to do with using it as added fuel to his anti-war issues. If he really was a concerned former Marine, then why not be out there attacking the media for basically convicting these men before there is a trial?
I think Murtha learned of the cover up from members of the military and worked to bring it into the open. If the war was going well or we were still in its early stages (prior to Murtha's push for pull out), he would still bring it out into the open. I don't know that he needs to attack the media (there are always plenty of people to do that, whether it be grumblers here or insurgents in Iraq). Rather, he can use the media to bring out his own message, which in large part has been "Don't villify these young men. What they did was wrong, but brought about not by them being bad people, but being in a bad situation." Also, Murtha and "the media" aren't alone in speaking on this mess critically. Lastly, Murtha is in a very good position to know just what happened as far as investigators know, and it does seem bleak.
I am sure he was pissed that they searched the office of William Jefferson, (which I noticed the crickets are chirping on this liberal board), so why is he not out there condemning the media?
Heh, you haven't chirped about it. Neither has akipt, Furtivus, Osgiliath or even Sixee. If you want to chat about Jefferson, go right ahead and post on it. In the meantime, tell use how you know that Murtha was pissed over the search? Has he commented on it at all? Or is this just more mind reading, pretending you know a man's motives to further your own agenda?

EDIT: Shanno, can you provide a link to the where "the media" has tried and convicted these men? I'd like to read it for myself.

First off.. Murtha himself has no future political plans.. but he will support the party line.. remember... do anything it takes to get power back from the republicans..


Thor,

I do not need to provide a link.. just watch your beloved CNN.. look for the undertone of the reports... The format in how you report something is just as powerful as coming out and saying it.

Pure comedy.

How many Democrats lined up around Murtha when he proposed his withdrawal plan? One, maybe?

Beloved CNN? Seriously, Kreskin, leave the mind reading to the X-Men.

just watch your beloved CNN.. look for the undertone of the reports

Honestly.. the right wing pundits have done a fantastic job of inventing more bias than actually exists in the media. Brilliantly too I might add.. Get people not to trust any source of information but themselves... control the message. Any news or information that presents counterideological information or bad tidings can be dismissed as "liberal biased media". Like how Iraq has been such a huge success, and the only problem is the media isnt reporting all the GOOD news!

Now people so convinced what their beloved leaders have told them find bias and treason even in places where it isnt. GG on being the behavioral descendants of the residents of Salem, Mass. circa: 1690.
Does Anderson Cooper weigh more than a duck?????

I saw an interesting interview on CNN. They were interviewing various people and kids who had witnessed the Marines as they went house to house killing people.

One of the kids they interviewed said this "The morning the bomb went off I stayed in bed and covered my head because I knew the bomb was going to go off, after it exploded I got up and started to get ready to go to school...then the Marines came and started shooting"

just watch your beloved CNN.. look for the undertone of the reports (I'm curious as to the undertone in the above report)

The Arabic journalist who was interviewing her said he pointed that out to people and they all said she had made a mistake.

That kind of backs up, what is certainly known, that the people in those areas are aware of exactly where the IED's are planted. I don't think thats any big secret but unfortunately it still doesn't ultimately justify what the reaction was.

I reiterate that it is unfortunate our leadership in Washington seems to have learned nothing from the experience of the Vietnam war....but thats probably because the ones who cooked up the mess in their own words said things like "there were better things to do than to go to Vietnam"

I do not need to provide a link.. just watch your beloved CNN.. look for the undertone of the reports... The format in how you report something is just as powerful as coming out and saying it.

Now what do we say if CNN's relatively flat (sensational, yes, but not exactly predisposed towards guilt) reporting happens to agree with EVERY OTHER NEWS OUTLET regardless of country of origin? It doesn't take a whole lot of evil spitting liberal media pink commie bias to paint the deliberate killing of unarmed civilians by professionally trained soldiers to be negative, particularly when the USMC itself made conciliatory payments to survivors.

The horror and shock is sad, that we think just being American somehow makes us benevolent conquerors, regardless of the death tolls we leave behind in every country we intervene in partially because the "liberal biased media" simply never reports on it.

The horror and shock is sad, that we think just being American somehow makes us benevolent conquerors, regardless of the death tolls we leave behind in every country we intervene in partially because the "liberal biased media" simply never reports on it.

But does being an American make us automatically guilty of everything that is thrown at us?
That's the problem conservatives tend to have with with most of the reports on the major media outlets.
The undertone of the stories seems to be: here's another reason being an American ain't so great. Wouldn't you rather be a citizen of the world, not an American?
You should find out the facts of the stories for yourself. If it's ok to be distrustful of the government, regardless of the administration in charge, why isn't it ok to be distrustful of the media as well?

Has anybody seen this (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article622734.ece) article yet? While I can't speak to the credibility/lack thereof of the source, if its true it sounds like it was a coverup. Interesting.