Hamas leaderless again! (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,117399,00.html)

:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :lol :lol :lol :rollin :lol :eek :eek :rollin :rollin :rollin

Yah.

They're well on the way to establishing peace.

There can be no peace through negotiations, I believe this has been tried for over a decade now. Every cease-fire, or "peace agreement" has been broken by suicide bombings and terrorist attacks. The latest Israeli proposal has already been flatly refused by Arafat and the PLO. Arafat has made it clear time and time again that there can be no compromise, that the Palistinians will NEVER STOP THE INTIFADA until the state of Palistine exists with Jerusalem as it's CAPITAL.

Hama is a certified terrorist organization. Like the dumbass sheik before him, this cretin is a self proclaimed murderer of innocents, so please shed no tears for him.. Abdel Rantisi, ironically a pediatrician, has delivered his last infant nail-bomb, and for that everyone should be grateful.

I believe there have been none, or possibly very few brokered peace agreements without war. I can't think of any peace that was brought about purely through negotiation and minimal bloodshed. In all cases, one side has always had to have been pummeled into submission first-- forced to compromise.

The Sheik was killed over two weeks ago. Hamas swore revenge and has made over 15 attempts of suicide bomb/attacks on Israeli citizens, and have failed in all of them, resulting in the deaths of over 17 Palistinian terrorists, 3 of them "children" (Halo, there are your "innocent" nail-bomb laden children you like to talk about). Israel is sending a clear message to Hamas, and anybody who now has the balls to call themselves the new leader of Hamas will know his time is numbered. Now I have little doubt that there is no shortage of fanatics willing to fill his shoes, but one cannot dispute that each replacement will be less educated, less trained, and bottom line less able to direct Hamas in what they do, which is kill inocents. I say Amen to that.

Ycore

It's the same dude who publicly proclaimed that he isn't afraid of Israel killing him.
I guess he forgot to bring his human shields this time.

Good job.

Any Hamas leader is walking dead at this point,
I wonder who will take the job next.

And how long after that he'll be dead.

--Namie

Israel is using the only method that will work

Its easy to send teenagers to die with bombs strapped to their chest, its another thing to know that the minute you poke your head out your door, its getting blown the fuck off.

The one thing I have to give Bush credit for, the shift to going to war with Terrorist groups. Motherfuckers better be REAL careful about calling Jihad, cause we might just declare it back.

The problem is with the radicals, no matter how much they try to negociate, it only takes 1 coward to strap on some explosives and blow up a bus or a restaurant. Israel at least tries to target the leaders, however they do not care about civilian casualties.

this wont have any serious result (except if you count more dangerous life in Israel as an intended result).

Have you seen the pictures guys? This could work, if hamas were a baseless organization with like 100 supporter. Wont have any good with the 10.000+ sopen supporters and millions symphatizans they have in the muslim world. There will be always replacements to the leaders. :(

RIGHT.
I've had enough.

Let me paint you folks a picture, as you're too fucking ignorant or wrapped in blissful content to see anything beyond the Israeli "defense".

Britain, in its infinite wisdom, made a hell-hole after the First World War, when our lovely Empire was not yet completely worn out.
The poor, miserable Ottomans were kicked out of Palestine by the British, who told the Arabs (who we would now call Palestinians) that it would be for them. However, we also made promises to the Jews in Europe (mainly to gain their support against Germany in WW1).
Now, I have sympathy for the Israeli's, I really do. They've been treated like shit by pretty much everyone. Brits killed 'em, Spanish ran 'em out, Hitler went exterminating happy. Who wouldn't be ready to defend themselves so aggressively if they had such a history?
So anywho, The Balfour Declaration, a document that most Palestinians, I've no doubt, shudder at the mention of, was written by the British Foreign Secutary of the time, stating that the British Government supported “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." Now the Arabs didn't know about this, and the Jews didn't know about the Arabs not really knowing.
With me so far?
So when the Brits and the Arabs kicked the poor Turks out of Palestine, it was, of course, split in to Jordan and Palestine a few years after WW1, with Britain controlling the area.

Oh boy. Hindsight's a bitch.

Over the next 25 or so years, the Jewish Zionist's immigrate en mass, after the British sold the idea of them living in the Holy Land. Now the poor bastard Arabs were getting worried. European, Jewish people, by the thousands, start settling in to their, supposedly (and promised) land.
Both parties looked to us painfully short sighed Brits, and we kept changing sides. Supporting the creation of a Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital on one side, and then confirming to the Arabs the automity of a Palestine, much like what happened with Jordan.

But then the Jewish population trickled over the million mark, and feeling let down by the British, and slightly overwhelmed, the Arabs had enough. They begun fighting the Jews under the notion that the Brits had failed to do anything to prevent them from being over-run by the Jewish Europeans.
After something like 2 or 3 years, we wise old Brits finally managed to restrict Jewish immigration and finally halt the increasingly overwhelming population.
WW2 kicked in.
Palestine was, for a time, at peace. The Arabs were content with the British efforts of preventing them from being outnumbered and crowded in their own country, and the Jews were happy with a place to call their own.

WW2 ended. Some 100, 000 Holocaust survivors fled to Israel. We Limey's couldn't contain it. The Jewish population rocketed, until it over-took the Arabs.
The Arabs were pissed, the Jews were worried, so finally, as our Empire became completely exhausted and our resources were depleted due to the World Wars, we had the bright idea of putting our hands up to the problem, withdrawing most of our troops, and passing the "mess" to the newly created UN, while we had a grim time dismantling the last threads of the Empire.

So what did the UN do? Well, they contrived the idea of splitting Palestine in to two seperate Jewish and Arab states. The Arabs put their trust in to the UN that they would be protected and kept at peace in their new state, while the Jews, growing by the month, were anxious and - obviously - eager for their own, independent safe haven.
So guess what? They wanted the British out. How did they express this?

Guerilla and terrorist activites against the remaining British force. That's right kiddies. As the Palestinians are today, the Jews didn't have the resource or the possibility of a competent or reliable army or defence, so the people resulted to terrorist tactics directed against us Brits.

Finally, we completely withdrew. The UN brought in a voting council to pass a resolution which suggested the creation of Israel. The resolution didn't win initially. It had only 25 votes, while 13 rejected it and 17 were abstentions. Some "pats on the back" and "arm twisting" later resulted in a number of countries changing their vote, and so the resolution scraped through. The Arabs walked out in disgust and disbelief, being promised Palestine from the beginning, But the Jews, you Yanks, and the Soviet Union immediately recognized the country and celebrated.

With American and, initially, European support, Israel grew and "Palestine" dwindled. The Muslim world was pissed off (though really, it had nothing to do with them, being that they never helped the Palestinians in their bloody lives), and well, you have the Six Day War.
Mini-America, errr I mean Israel, was gang-banged by the surrounding nations. Palestinians, having never really stopped fighting with the Jewish immigrants, hoped to regain the land they had been slowly denied by the British, and then completely by the UN.
It wasn't so. Israel pwned Egypt, Syria, and uhh.. Jordan? Who knows.
I wanna laugh when I think about how small Israel was, and how large the other nations were. Anyway, un-sympatheticly, they got their just deserves. But the poor fucking Palestinians, who were denied what they were promised, then kicked out of the land, were now occupied.

A fucked up government, no economical, social, or military prospects, overwhelming and drastic Israeli retaliation and occupation....

And you have to even CONTEMPLATE why Palestinians do what they do?!?
No, I do not sympathize with terrorists. I do not welcome Palestinian suicide bombers. I don't support Hamas.
But I can fucking well understand their motivation sometimes, and I certainly will never reduce them to nothing more than brutal, vicious, Arabs.

This is what the majority of you folks lack - looking objectively at the otherside.

Your best post ever..

I dont agree with alot of it.. but well done.

Oh stop flirting with me.

Aye, good post Halo, for once I agree with what you have said. (this is comming from a very conservative republican)

Dont flatter yourself.

Anyway. What Israel is doing will work. It will completely dismantle the appartus of terror, for as long as they keep the hammer down.
Its not a good option by any means, and it creates problems at the same time that it solves them, but I really dont see them having a choice in the matter. Hamas and Hezbollah are too entrenched in this, they are multi-million dollar organizations. They will continue to attack Israel until they drive them into the sea.
I fear that both sides are in "death-lock" wherein the only end to conflict is the complete and utter destruction of one side or the other. It is the bad fortune that the Palestinians have zero hope of winning this conflict. No Arab nation will ever support them in any way besides lip service. Even if the Arab world was able to create a coalition strong enough to not make Israel giggle, the US would back them 100%, as we should.
And the UN and the world may condemn Israel, but they really could give a shit, in their thinking, the world can piss the fuck off. The world stood by while their people were being herded into Zyclon-B showers. They know they cannot ever depend on others, except the US when push really comes to shove. No one is going to stop the Suicide attacks.
A part of me feels bad for the Palestinians. Its like a guy, fighting someone who is a much better fighter than he is, but despite him getting his ass throughly kicked, he gets a couple blows in here and there, and his buddies, while not actually jumping in or helping, keep egging him on. And the guy keeps getting up, eventually the fighter is going to kill him.
Its a shame that the Palestinians are being used by their Arab "Brothers" like this. They, more than the Israelis, are going to be responsible for one of the greatest tragedies of this century. These are people, not pawns.

Why do you think this will work?
I really can't get it. A leader for extrimist organization is not a professional job. He does not really 'lead', he does not really need leadership skills. Current leaders of Hamas are more or less just a symbol. Killing the current symbol does f*** up the organization, but makes the dead a martyr, strenghtening their ideology, and every action of those recruits dozens of suicide bombers to the Hamas.

Look this way:

Let's say there is some organization hating US, strong enough to kill whatever president you have. And they do kill the president every time he says something they do not like, or they do not like interventions USA participates in. Now how you will react for it? You would be angry, you would want blood. Of course you always would have a new leader, and of course you would try to do something against that organization. But would you ever give up? Would you ever surrender to an enemy, who - from your view - has no any 'right' to do what they do? Definately no. Your whole nation, your international supporters would be angry and more angry, and would try eliminate such an organisation.

The same what goes on in Israle /Palestine. Meanwhile I do say the core of extrimists might be needed to eliminate, that alone won't be enough. And the failure of this world is, not forceing Israel into a reasonable peace-pact, but lets it play around. And this is a failure what results 10.000+ (?) civil victims in the middle-east, who still does not want anything else than peace. Supporting Israel 100% without certain conditions is a wrong way to bring peace.

After the last years, I hardly doubt there is any normal, serious political side in the middle-east and in the leading countries of the world, except the everyday people of palestines and Israel.

Remember this. Follow the Money.
Hamas, Hezbollah are organized and well funded. The recruitment of soliders and suicide bombers, the manufacturing of material, the support of leaders and their families and the families of "martyrs", the purchase of explosives. All of this is centralized.
Suicide Bombers are picked out, they are trained and indocrinated. Their targets are picked out and scouted in advance and waves are coordinated to acheive a maximum political effect.
Take out the leaders and you take away the cash. Take away the cash and fund-raising and Palestinian anger is reduced, for a time, to throwing rocks in the street.
To keep killing the leaders is like revese evolution. Eventually the best and brightest leaders will be dead, and the day to day operation of these organizations will be left to someone of incompitance.

Want an example? Look at how the FBI destroyed the Mafia in the US.

I think the Mafia is a bad example ...

It would be utterly stupid to continue to have leaders killed/arrested by the FBI when there way easier locations where I can make the same amount or even more cash then where my leaders do get blown away, or?

This option does not apply in the Israel/Paleaestine conflict. Since both parties insist on their rights to live there.

Well said..you put a spin on it that I had not considered.

I doubt how much Hamas is centralised. It has 'offices' in different countries. Making a bomb, doesnt require much of a skill nowadays, a very few chemical knowledge is required. Explosives are not rare and not expensive a, cos its easy to produce b, cos there are many weapon-manufacturer selling weapons to them.

Eliminating their leaders would work, in case there would be no strong ideology behind them and they would not backed with the support of millions.

Also, training a suicide bombers doesnt need much time/effort/money.

I do say some of them must be eliminated, etc. But that alone won't be enough.

No.. I dont think you understand what happened to the Mafia.

The taking out of its top leadership reduced it from a powerful national syndicate to a bunch of local small time operations. Its ability to engage in crimes like owning Casinos, control the drug trade, and buy high level public officials was removed.

Thats what taking out the top does, you downgrade the ability of the entire organization. No leadership, no direction, infighting for power, abscence of a central plan, conflicting agendas...

Btw.. how many attacks have they launched since they killed the Old Man in the wheelchair?
Zero.

Altho L2 is absolutely right - you need to follow the cash. Unfortunatly is it rather rare that the person/s who funds the Hamas actualy leads them also.

Eliminate the cash which the Hamas does get and you're far more successful then killing 10 leaders of them.

Don't forget the power games inside the system. Once you need a new leader there is always internal struggle of who gets the post. So while they are carring coffins on the street, mourning the next day and electing a new leader the operations are on hold and thats a good thing.

Zero? Not true, the recent killing was a reply to a bombing last week. Well, according to news i saw.

Hamas is pretty different from the Mafia.
Mafia had no ideology support, had no millions of supporters.
And yes they mourn on the street, some thousands every 5th of them holding an ak-47, and i bet its loaded.

well, we will see what happens :)

Is the US inoperable when a President dies? There is always a Number 2 who usualy becomes the new Number 1, so I'd say the argument holds little to no water. While they carry coffins on the street, they are already developing a plan to hit the guys who did this to them.

L2, I think you're not correct with the scenario you print here. Agreed, in the 60 & 70's terrorists were organised like you describe (Bader-Meinhof, IRA, etc.). The 'new age' terroristgroups are a bit different - they learned and adapted. And the most scarying thing is - they are larger and operate on a much larger scale also. There are many small organisations which basicly operate indepent from the 'big leadership'. To talk in a more modern language - they became decentralized. They have one goal in common, but how they actualy reach that goal, isn't realy the business of the leadership anymore. The leadership is merely a symbolic person, people, no matter what religion or race, tend to 'need' a leader to look at or up to.

That's why I think killing leaders of the Hamas is a fruitless thing. If you want to stop the whole thing, you need to stop the cashflow - entirly.

With no money left, the dummy passports do get worse (aka easier to identify) the whole infrastructur of the different small terror cells does get worse, etc. pp.

So, I personaly would start with a much more restrictive finacial controlling system with way less flaws in it. To stop terrorism we need the tools/laws to know where money actualy was wired to, who is the true owner or an account, no financial blackspots (Caiman, Switzerland and alike). The list would continue, but hell, that would open an entirly different can o' worms.