Hi guys,

I am buying in for another 3-4 year stretch in hardward and wanted to get your opinions.

Here is the quoted system from my hardware guys:

1 Intel Pentium D, Lga775, 2.8ghz (820), 2x1mb, 800mhz Fsb
1 Intel - Motherboard 945g Lga775 Dc Max-4gb Ddr2 Atx Pcie16 Pcie 4pci Vid Gbe Sata 1066m

2 Major Ddr2 533mhz 1gb 240pin Memory
1 Antec 9bay Mid Tower Atx Black 450watt Atx12v Front Usb/Firewire
1 Vantec Stealth Ball Bearing Case Fan 120x120x25mm
1 Lg Gsa-H10a 16x/16x Dvd-Rw Internal, Bulk, Black
2 Seagate - Eide 250gb Sata 3gb 7200 Rpm 16mb Cache
1 Ati Original Radeon X1600pro Pci-E 512mb Ddr2 Tv-Out Dvi Retail


Some upgrade options:
Intel Cncipd920 Intel Pentium D, Lga775, 2.8ghz (920), 2x2mb, 800mhz Fsb
Intel Cncipd830 Intel Pentium D, Lga775, 3.0ghz (830), 2x1mb, 800mhz Fsb
Intel Cncipd930 Intel Pentium D, Lga775, 3.0ghz (930), 2x2mb, 800mhz Fsb
Intel Cncipd840 Intel Pentium D, Lga775, 3.2ghz (840), 2x1mb, 800mhz Fsb
Intel Cncipd940 Intel Pentium D, Lga775, 3.2ghz (940), 2x2mb, 800mhz Fsb
Plextor - Texel Px-716sa/Sw 2.4x Dl 16x/8x/16x Dvd+/-Rw 48x24x48x Cdrw Sata


Let me know if you guys see any glaring errors or ommissions and please suggest any upgrades I may look at from the options listed.

I am mostly interested in any other suggestions you could make for the video card. I am already thinking of changing it to AGP.

I am also thinking of making it 4gigs of ram instead of the 2gigs listed.

Thanks in advance for your inputs ;).

Cheers,

That's similar to the system I made recently.

My thoughts would be:

Stick with PCI-e. Can you even buy that card in AGP?

The Ds run pretty warm. Get a better cooler than the stock Intel one (Zalmans are nice bang for buck).

I'm not up to speed on the model numbering, but make sure to get the more recent D chip with the thinner process. I assume it's the 9xx series. It runs a bit cooler, which you're going to want.

Stick with PCI-e. Can you even buy that card in AGP?


In the 512MB version? I don't know, but in the 256MB version you can. Honestly Lok if I was going to drop the cash for a new mboard and CPU I'd go PCI-E simply b/c graphics mfg are not going to make anything else on the AGP arch. So far the 7800 GPU is the latest I've seen from nVidia and I doubt ATI would do differently.

Take heed, if you go Intel get an aftermarket cooler. As Sanchek says Zalmans are nice. I would disagree with him, THEY ARE DAMN NICE!!! Since installing some silver compound and a Zalman my CPU temp has dropped nearly 20 degrees under load :) And they are mucho quieter than that slinky stock fan.

If your looking for 3 to 4 years of viablity in the system I would make sure to go with atleast 2nd fastest chip avaliable if not hte fastest. and the more cooling the better.

Rev

I'd go AMD X2 3800 for ~85 bucks more ($295) with an MSI mobo and Pci-e. Pci-e is a no brainer. I've found that the higher end AGP card market is inflated due to all of us old AGP'ers trying to squeeze 20 more FPS out of our suddenly passe rigs. Caught me by surprise too...

From what I have read (I'm not a fanboi of AMD) AMD still has Intel on the ropes with desktop processors and their (Intel) dual-core implementation is analogous to gluing 2 single processors together. It was a jerk reaction by our dancing boys in the colorful hazmat suits. Whereas the core of AMD's are chock full of engineering goodness! (Google that if you want, I'm just a talking head.)

All I know is the people using AMD x2 had all kinds of trouble with various games and even the OS, while my Pentium D was perfect from the get go.

I dunno, I have a 4200+ x2, and no problems. Encodes videos faster, or at the same speed as my old processor (3400+) while I game. That and typically AMD processors do better with gaming that Intels, but then Intels do better at most desktop software. So really it depends on what you're going for.

And why, oh why would you ever gimp yourself with an ATI video card :p get a 7800 GTX.

Hi everyone,

Here is the upated specs on the new system:


1 INTEL MOTHERBOARD 945G LGA775 DC MAX-4GB DDR2 ATX PCIE16 PCIE 4PCI VID GBE SATA 1066M
1 INTEL PENTIUM D, LGA775, 3.2GHz (840), 2x1MB, 800MHz FSB (3 YEAR WARRANTY)
1 Zalman CPU Fan LED-CU CNPS9500
4 MAJOR DDR2 533MHz 1GB 240PIN MEMORY

1 ANTEC 9BAY MID TOWER ATX BLACK 450WATT ATX12V FRONT USB/FIREWIRE
1 VANTEC STEALTH BALL BEARING CASE FAN 120x120x25MM

2 SEAGATE - EIDE 250GB SATA 3GB 7200 RPM 16MB CACHE
1 PLEXTOR - TEXEL 2.4X DL 16X/8X/16X DVD+/-RW 48X24X48X CDRW SATA

1 ATI Original Radeon X1600PRO PCI-E 512MB DDR2 TV-Out DVI Retail


I am thinking of taking the processor back down to 2.8GHz to reduce the cost of the system by $200 CDN, hopefully the 4 GIG in ram will offset the reduction in CPU power.

I am going to stay with ATI atm. I have been happy with my previous cards and since ATI is a Canadian company I thought I would buy local. I can always upgrade down the road if I find the card lacking.

Let me know if you see any issues with the system.

Cheers,

Lokase

Does the Intel board prevent you from overclocking?

The difference in power consumption and heat output between the 8xx (90nm) and 9xx (65nm) chips is worth going for the 9xx. You could get the 3ghz 9xx to save money, and overclock it to 3.2ghz easily.

Howdy!

Hmmm, if you're looking for a gaming system, I'd definately go AMD, but if you do have your heart set on Intel, going with an Intel mobo is definately the right choice. Our store has been in business for 14 years now and they've NEVER had an Intel board come back broken or burnt out. Their track record is and continues to be flawless.

If you do decide to go AMD, you'll definately get more bang for your buck as you can get a far better performing processor for your money. And don't worry about heat, the AMD processors are actually running cooler than the Intel 775's these days.

X1600 Vid cards are definately priced nicely for a medium build game system. We've brought in the ASUS models and they're holding up VERY nicely. ATI cards are definately not bad (using an X800GTO Fireblade edition myself), however I do agree with the guys, if you can afford to go NVidia, I'd definately consider it. If cost is an issue, you can get more performance for your dollar by going ATI. It's all about how much money ye want to spend.

Something to keep in mind when buying a vid card btw (sidetracking here a bit), with regard to frames per second, the human eye can only see so much. If you go to the following site:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/digest3d/index0504.html

they have a listing of games and how they hold up using various cards. The human eye can only see approximately 32 frames per second, so anything above that is gravy. It really depends on the load you plan on putting on your card.

Seagate hard drives. Great warranty, but they tend to be slow. They are all usually (technically) 7200 RPM, but if you look at the figures, they are the slowest of that type. I'm a big fan of Western Digital, especially their SATAII drives. I'm using a 250GB SATAII with a 16MB cache. It's not a Raptor (also Western Digital, /drool), but it's not too shabby either.

With regard to RAM, make sure it's dual channel kits that you're using. Geil, Corsair, OCZ, anything, just as long as they're matched. It'll ensure that you get full performance. I tried running dual channel with generic RAM and it was a pain. The RAM ran at a lower speed and sometimes wouldn't run in dual channel at all. Go with the kits (I'm pretty sure you are, but just in case), you'll thank me later.

I'm using an Antec case and power supply myself. I'm currently using the NeoPower 480W. If your case comes with the power supply included, there's a good chance it's a SmartPower. These guys are Antec's cheap models and tend to blow up around a year into the systems life. They generally just die, so your parts inside should be ok, but I will warn you, if your power supply does fry any of your electronics while it's in it's death throes, it WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY. It doesn't happen often, but consider yourself warned.

I hope this helps. With all the advice flying around here, just keep in mind, ultimately it's what you're going to be happy with that's important. We'd all love to have the best of the best (I work in a computer store, I die a thousand deaths daily watching high end systems go out the door LOL. Canadian too ^_^), but it's bang for buck that most of us are looking for.

they have a listing of games and how they hold up using various cards. The human eye can only see approximately 32 frames per second, so anything above that is gravy. It really depends on the load you plan on putting on your card.
Worst myth ever.

Those 24-32fps numbers are based on studies using motion blurred movies on film, with no user input. Even someone with terrible vision can see and feel the difference between 32 and 64fps in a game.

http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html

I'm certain that there are folks out there that can see higher than that. But if you look at the specs for, say, two 7900 GTX's in SLI, the FPS is rated in the 150's. VERY nice, but obviously not necessary.

I would bet that every last person reading this post would be able to easily differentiate between 32 and 64fps in a game. Maybe not on film with motion blur, but easily in a MMO or FPS game.

32 might be tolerable enough not to look like a slideshow, but 60-100+ is vastly better. It's not even in the same ballpark, when it comes to playability.

I'm not sure I agree with all of that article. This part, in particular, seems to be nonsense:

In games, an implemented motion blur would cause the game to behave erratically; the programming wouldn't be as precise. An example would be playing a game like Unreal Tournament, if there was motion blur used, there would be problems calculating the exact position of an object (another player), so it would be really tough to hit something with your weapon. With motion blur in a game, the object in question would not really exist in any of the places where the "blur" is positioned, that is the object wouldn't exist at exactly coordiante XYZ. With exact frames, those without blur, each pixel, each object is exactly where it should be in the set space and time.

Simple answer: Input response time should have nothing to do with the frame rate. An object's location can be interpolated between frames.

I think I can see where he's coming from, but he did overstate it.

If you shot the blur, what should happen? You see part of the object there, but it isn't there.

Oops, I edited my post while you replied. :P

It should depend on timing within the frame. An object has a precise location for any given frame; interpolation will give a location for any time between frames.

Of course, implementing motion blur would likely decrease the frame rate, given the extra work needed to draw each frame, so a moderately powerful graphics card would likely be necessary either way.

With the blur, the visual size of the object would be larger. So, do you get a hitbox for the blur too? Or, do you have people shooting air?

Speaking of motion blur, these guys make a big deal about using it in their FPS engine (that seems like it's never going to get off the ground): http://www.projectoffset.com/

It's a cool idea to combine high FPS sharpness of the slow stuff and motion blur realism on faster moving objects. The HD video looks neat.

Maybe it can be better explained using an example:

Suppose that for frame 1, a rectangle occupies (0,0)-(20,20).
Suppose that for frame 2, a rectangle occupies (10,0)-(30,20).
With motion blur, the blur would occupy (0,0)-(30,20).

Now, suppose that the time of your shot was exactly halfway between frames 1 and 2.
The rectangle's location at the time of the shot can be interpolated. In this case, it would be (5,0)-(25,100). If your shot was inside this rectangle, you'd get a hit, otherwise you missed.

Of course that's just one answer to the problem. Another option could be to simply use the rectangle's location in frame 1 (or in frame 2)--the actual location, not the blur that was drawn.

I've only looked at the Crowd Test video so far, but that was pretty impressive. (I was also impressed by their server bandwidth while downloading the video!)

Maybe it can be better explained using an example:

Suppose that for frame 1, a rectangle occupies (0,0)-(20,20).
Suppose that for frame 2, a rectangle occupies (10,0)-(30,20).
With motion blur, the blur would occupy (0,0)-(30,20).

Now, suppose that the time of your shot was exactly halfway between frames 1 and 2.
The rectangle's location at the time of the shot can be interpolated. In this case, it would be (5,0)-(25,100). If your shot was inside this rectangle, you'd get a hit, otherwise you missed.

Of course that's just one answer to the problem. Another option could be to simply use the rectangle's location in frame 1 (or in frame 2)--the actual location, not the blur that was drawn.
I don't think he's so much talking about mid-frame interpolation. That issue wouldn't change much between blur and non-blur scenarios, would it?

The way I read it (and somewhat agree), he's talking about the fact that no matter what size it is or what speed it's moving, you would view it as visibly elongated on the path of travel. If you aimed for what you saw as the middle, your accuracy would be reduced as compared to the same object without blur.

Hehehe, main point of my post is this:

You don't have to fork out gobs and gobs and gobs of cash to get a system that will perform well for you. ;)

I think Pala needs to log in and invite me!

The final system specs have been approved and will be ready early next week!


1 INTEL - MOTHERBOARD 945G LGA775 DC MAX-4GB DDR2 ATX PCIE16 PCIE 4PCI VID GBE
SATA 1066M
1 INTEL PENTIUM D, LGA775, 2.8GHz (820), 2x1MB, 800MHz FSB (3 YEAR WARRANTY)
4 MAJOR DDR2 533MHz 1GB 240PIN MEMORY
1 ANTEC 9BAY MIDTOWER ATX BLACK 450WATT ATX12V FRONT USB/FIREWIRE
1 VANTEC STEALTH BALL BEARING CASE FAN 120x120x25MM
2 SEAGATE - EIDE 250GB SATA 3GB 7200 RPM 16MB CACHE
1 ATI Original Radeon X1600PRO PCI-E 512MB DDR2 TV-Out DVI Retail
1 PLEXTOR - TEXEL 2.4X DL 16X/8X/16X DVD+/-RW 48X24X48X CDRW SATA
1 Zalman CPU Fan LED-CU CNPS9500

Total amount due upon deliver will be $2,162.47 (Canadian Funds)

I have been using www.compunation.com (http://www.compunation.com/) for all my hardware purchases for many years now. These guys know the value of nurturing a business relationship, I feel like they have my back at every turn of the corner, plus they are really nice guys.

They may be slightly more expensive than some alternatives but the peace of mind I get from them is well, well worth it.


Thank you everyone for your input and suggestions.

Cheers,

$2,162.47 Canadian Funds?
That's like $1.75 American, right?

Enjoy your new system Loka!!!
:D

Get the 920. It's barely more than the 820, but has 2x the L2 cache and runs a lot cooler.

Sanchek, come on, we need everyone to buy Macs. Who knows, you might like wearing black, let your hair grow out long (with spots of red, purple, blond, although predominantly black), wear horn-rimmed glasses, and you know the rest. Get a MacBook Pro, duh.

The new Mac Intel Core Duo's (ESPECIALLY the Powerbooks) make me feel kinda funny....like when I fuck the dog....I mean.....climb the rope in gym class!:o

Get the 920. It's barely more than the 820, but has 2x the L2 cache and runs a lot cooler.


Done,

Makes a lot of sense Sanchek and the difference in CND funds is only about $50 which in Sixee world equates to a stick of chewing gum ;).

Thanks for the heads up :).

Cheers,

Lokase

Btw, kudos on supporting your local computer store :)

I work at one like it (www.avalonsoftware.com (http://www.avalonsoftware.com)). Because we're on Newfoundland, our prices tend to be a little more expensive due to shipping (varies depending on supplier).

If it's on the market, we can pretty much get it in, however it's getting harder and harder to compete when you have companies like Dell and HP offering up cheap computers. It's almost not worth it to even put them together anymore :rolleyes: