How to take a test:

Step One: Read question
Step Two: Answer question
Step Three: Go to next question
Step Four: Repeat steps One through Four

Now stop complaining!

ok Cron think you could expand on this for those of us not in Cali???

It's amazing how many of my students get hung up on Step 1 ;) . Every time I give a 'short answer' section to my tests, I'll have several students who just won't bother...

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective.\

Bother what? Reading the question? Giving a short answer? Each other? The bee hive in the window?

I suppose teachers should work expressing themselves better if they expect the students to understand them.:b

Dear Esbat:

Shouldn't that be 'I suppose teachers should work *at* expressing themselves better...'? ;)

I realize that post might have come across as somewhat ambiguous. Of course short answer questions require both reading *and* writing out an answer on the part of the student, but it seems that most of them hang up on 'Step 1' :) . At least that seems to be the case here in Laredo, home of students who are 'illiterate in two languages' as a colleague likes to say... :)

Either they'll look at that page with its big white empty threatening spaces and just not bother to make any effort to read it, or they'll read a few words of the question, jump to conclusions, and put down some bizarre answer to a question only tangentially related to what is being asked (say, they recognize one word and address their own made up question using that word ;) )...

Of course, if you want some laughs, I could post some of my more creative 'Step 2' failures from last semester also.

Regards,
Nydia

Shouldn't that be 'I suppose teachers should work *at* expressing themselves better...'?

Yes, it probably should. Imagine that.

/claps

Teachers should be more willing to fail students.

But... it's never the drug abusing class skipping students fault! It must be the teachers!

www.tardblog.com (http://www.tardblog.com)

Hey Zehn :)

I'd *love* to be able to give my students the straight up percentage grade that they earned in my classes. There's only one problem with that ideal: the teacher evaluation protocol at most colleges and community colleges in the U.S. (which determines whether or not we make tenure) is heavily weighted towards the scores we get on our *student* evaluations, and students tend to take it out on you when they get 37s on your exams, no matter how cool they think you are ;) . (also, how 18 year olds are qualified to evaluate such things as my professional development is a mystery to me :) ). Even more insidious than that is the evaluation process conducted by the institutions, which in our case carefully monitors drop and failure rates in our courses, and labels such by the quaint term 'failure of instruction' :) . The reason: State schools (whether primary/secondary or in higher education) run on the almighty tax dollah, and what determines how much money we get? Enrollment (at a community college, admit as many students as possible, no matter how ill-prepared) and passing/graduation rates. I end up using a curve *every* semester, in *every* course, and I evaluate how I am doing by how hefty that curve ends up having to be. Sometimes it's pretty damned depressing...

The 'success equation' in teaching actually *punishes* instructors who try to push their students to actually learn anything other than what is going to be on the next standardized test. Teaching is a struggle, not so much against the ignorance and apathy of the students (who have, after all, been conditioned into much of that apathy), but against the administrative machine which seeks to turn the educational process into an assembly line. Despite this, some us actually manage not to become completely hopeless and apathetic ourselves, and continue to try to find ways to stimulate and challenge our students, and help them develop in both competence and as thinking citizens, as they prepare for their future lives.

The President of our little college spoke at Convocation this fall and came up with this incredibly, erm, 'inspiring' statement:
"Despite these budget cuts, we are going to get these students in here, and get them through our classes, so they can get good jobs.". Note the total absence of such lofty ideals as education for the sake of personal growth, producing an educated citizenry, or even any mention of the quality of education that students should receive in their field of study at our institution. That the President of an instution of higher learning would come up with such a statement just shows you how skewed the 'view from the top' is in education these days...

/rant off :)

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

So give them an F, then go get a job at McDonalds. Least you took one of the little fuckers down with you.

Of course I'm not being realistic.

Dear Zehn:

Rofl! Actually, my only *earned* A in my freshman major's class last fall was a kid who was crossing the border every day to come to class, had a hearing impairment, and *worked the drive-through at the local Mac Donalds*...

Faervas (who is in the Art department here, and came home with a doozy of a story today) just read your reply and laughed out loud... ;)

Regards,
Nydia

I'm with Nydia on this. I'm usually pretty happy if my students manage to turn in the assignment/test, regardless of what's on it. Hell, if they get the right name on the right line I'm happy. Bonus points if it isn't crumpled up (I haven't given bonus points yet this year :\ ).

Today I got two short answer papers from two girls in the same class, who sit by each other, turned in at the same time, word for word identical answers. Both were extremely offended that I accused them of cheating, and I got parent phone calls this afternoon telling me I'm mean for giving their daughter's failing grades and calling them cheats.

If I thought I could get away with it, I'd fail most of them. Or at least send out failing grades at the quarter. No such luck.

So, umm, Cronuus, what prompted all this?


-Kanyli

stop spending my tax dollars coddling and babysitting stupid people.

Pretty sad to hear how the system work in the USA I guess. Here teachers have 0 problems failing students hehe but public schools are paid by the taxes and failing a student wont change squat for the teacher, he can have all his class fail it wouldn't matter at all.

Sound fairly scary for the future tho. I m curious, are you nydia and kanyli working in some school with people that have difficulties or just normal schools ?

Can't even begin to get my head around the system here.
Only last year we had a huge scandal with the head of examination intentionally downmarking masses amounts of examination papers in order to atune to percentage figures.
Seems if students have a successful year, the work is all of a sudden 'too easy'. Zip forward to a bad year, and it's all of a sudden too hard and pressurising.
For godsake.

None of us can hold a candle to Indias educational system as far as turning out brilliant people..

of course... its all in the Math and Science areas..

But.. IIT is the best tech school in the world.. its grads blow MIT's out of the water


Sig too long 450 X 150

Dear Halo:

The British system is notoriously sadistic, but darned if you folks aren't fun at scientific conferences - if a guy/gal stands up during question and answer period and starts driving a truck through the holes in someone's work, it's usually someone educated in the British system or one of its derivatives (India, South Africa, Australia etc).

I *wish* I could get a little shame-based motivation going here; unfortunately, my students seem to be shameless, and don't care if I ask them fifteen questions and they don't know the answers to any of them. They'll just look sheepish, smile at me, and wait to see how long I will endure before backtracking...

Kinu: To answer your question, I don't know what level Kanyli teaches at but I think that both Kanyli's and my problem are rooted in the queer notion that we have here in the U.S. that *every* child has a 'right' to go to college (whether that suits their aptitudes and abilities or not). We don't have a situation like in most European countries and in Japan, where students take comprehensive examinations in their early teens and then get 'tracked' into a vocational/technical, finishing, or college preparatory school. This has both positive and negative consequences: students have more freedom of choice, but the result is that secondary education (note that in the U.S. this means junior high school and high school, or ages 12-18, not college), because it has to be 'general college preparatory' for everyone, is designed to accomodate the 'average' student, which means that bright students are underserved and become bored and apathetic, and below average students are annoyed by the content and drag down the class, skip school, drop out, etc.

Regarding my specific situation, I teach community college (state supported, 'open enrollment' college, which means we admit anyone who has a high school diploma or equivalency), in Webb County, Texas, which as of the last census has the highest percentage of Hispanic students in the country, and is in a very isolated area. Like most community colleges, our student population is very diverse: we have students right out of high school, returning adults who have families and are trying to change careers, and students who come for personal enrichment. Like most community colleges, we also frequently serve as 'babysitters' for young adults who are newly out of school and have no idea what they want to do with their lives, but are in college 1) so their parents don't make them go get a job and 2) because all their friends are going and they don't know what else to do.

There's something to be said for being able to take coursework in a low cost environment close to home (I went to a community college myself) while one is deciding what to do with one's life, or in order to save money, but it adds a considerable burden to the teachers similar to what teachers in secondarty schools have to endure (you have all types, whether they are qualified or really interested in being there or not). In this particular area, there are also cultural issues to deal with: the culture is traditionally very passive and doesn't value the aggressive pursuit of education (except as a means to an end), and we aren't allowed to use the tools that they have in the Mexican educational system in order to motivate the students (see the British system comments above ;) ).

Speaking of teaching :) , it's that time. Sorry to run on at the mouth, and I hope that this made some sense early in the morning...

I could run on and on at the mouth about how 'self-esteem' based education and coddling students, and tying standardized tests to funding are both 'bad things' that keep the meaningful education and preparation of American students between a rock and a hard place, but that would require another thread, I think... :)

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

/rant on

I teach at a Vocational-Technical college in the Midwest and have decided that my mentor was right... you have to love teaching because there's not much out there to motivate you to teach.

I enjoy teaching, I enjoy opening up the student's minds to new ideas and concepts, I enjoy seeing the "light" click on when they grasp a concept. Alas, it has been a long time since teaching was like that.

I made a career choice and decided that teaching was where my interest lay, and I wanted to help people make positive changes in their lives. However, it has come down to dollars and how many students do we have enrolled.

I teach at a private vo-tech school where a hands-on approach is our mainstay in the educational process. We stress not only the theory behind the concept, but can the student actually perform the job once they get into the real world. As you might guess, this has it's unique challenges.

Since we are a private college, funding for student education comes from student loans, grants, and often right out of the student's pocket (or a parent or grandparent..etc). This is not cheap! These students spend tens of thousands of dollars for a year round (no spring break, no summer break, no fall break), intense course of training with the ultimate goal of achieving a degree in approximately two years.

Now... given that these students are paying this kind of money to come to school... why is ATTENDANCE my biggest problem? They would rather stay home and play Nintendo than come to school.

One of my biggest complaints is that the administration folks seem to only care about how many people they can push through the process... who cares if they actually get an education?

Is this what our country's educational process has degraded to? I'm one of those pain in the arse teachers... you EARN your grade in my class... and I do NOT have the slightest problem flunking students. And like so many other folks in this kind of environment, how can a student make an informed judgement on my teaching ability, my qualifications or even my presentation skills? Let them go to school (instead of sitting at home playing Nintendo) and earn a degree, let them teach for as many years as I have.. .THEN.. let them come and give a critique of my abilities as an educator.

Okay.. enough... I'll shut up now...

/rant off

One last word....

For those students who don't want to study, who don't want to actually come to class and LEARN... you will go far in life... just remember these six words... "Would you like fries with that?"

Blame Bush and his no-child-left-behind scheme.

I teach high school, and in a very very wealthy area (consequently, as I teach, I can't even afford to live in the area). There is a huge push to get kids qualified for college, even if only on paper. And schools are paid out of state pockets based on numbers, so more students = more money. Failing a student or kicking them out of your class is a big no-no, since you'll not only hurt the school's pocket but also offend someone who runs in high circles. Hence my two phone calls yesterday about those girls.

Frankly, much as I love my students, I'd have no problem failing those who won't work. Not everyone is cut out for college, or even high school. I can do a lot to help a student, but only if they're willing to work and their parents are willing to support me. On the upside, I think most of these people either wash themselves out in college or just simply can't please an employer and hold a job.

Very often I think parents see me as a free babysitter to keep the kids all day. We're the factory that prep's 'em for ya, Nydia!

(I love your sig, Gandaar)


-Kanyli

Thanks Kanyli !

It was done by an artist named Evan Smith at www.restlessvision.com

If the link does not make it past the filter, drop me an e-mail at gandaar@sors.org (gandaar@sors.org) and I'll give you the contact info for his web site. He does some really great work.

He does commissioned artwork for folks based upon EverQuest, SWG, DAoC and a couple other games.

Blame Bush and his no-child-left-behind scheme.

:rollin

While I'm no huge fan of the details of the "No Child Left Behind" plan its nothing more than a continuation of deteriorating educational standards across our country. Wasn't started by Bush, won't end with Bush.

edit: missed a typo

'Blame Bush...'

- Ohh, the thread's getting interesting :P

I've got a nice sig one of my guildies made for me, I just need to get it uploaded somewhere again.

As to Bush, no it didn't start with him, but the no child left behind has become the warcry of the crowd pushing for better school statistics. A school with poor test grades in Arizona becomes labeled as a failing school, and has a few years to improve scores or the state can step in (I'm muddling up all the specifics on that, but that's the gist of it). The idea that any precious, beautiful young soul might be - gasp - unable to pass is clearly the fault of the faculty, and not because of underfunding, huge class sizes (48!), or lack of community support.

I ain't tryin' to whine though, just picked up a few cues from the rest of this thread. I knew exactly what I was going into when I took the job. Just wish there was some way to fix this mess of an educational system.

Speakin' of which, it's off to work!


-Kanyli

Blame Bush. thats rich. why don't we blame the people who's work it is, everyday, to pass stupid people so they can keep their jobs and continue sucking money out of public coffers. you curse the policy yet you do nothing but tow the line and wring your hands. hypocritical.

the public school systems are a joke. it's obvious you care more about your job security than you do about your students, as you are doing them a huge disservice by babying and coddling them.

they don't wanna learn. they don't wanna be in school. by lowering the standards to keep them in school (ie get more money) the only thing you accomplish is securing the lowest common denominator's drain on society. i'm just happy you allow me to participate in, and fund, this bullshit.

let these morons pay for day care like everyone else and keep the schools for people who WANT to be there to LEARN and become PRODUCTIVE COMPETITIVE members of society.

Well I don't have any interesting stories, I just have to sympathize with other teachers =(.

Its just amazing, Im a fencing instructor 2 days a week, these people pay $50 a class, and outta the 15 students I have..3..

*3*..bother to do the homework, bother to do the drills, bother to do just the basic exercises when not at class.
Then the rest have the gall to say I work them too hard..when..no surprise..the 3 who listened do well..and dont walk around with cramps in thier thighs for days after a class.

What a waste of *thier* money.


On another note Kanyli, if you(or anyone really), needs a pic or something hosted, feel free to send it to darusgrey@aol.com and I'll put it up and send you a link.

Blame the parents and lack of family values, don't let the TV or Computer raise the children. Have parents take an active roll in thier childs lifes. Everyone blames politics...well its bullshit it all starts at home

Sothgar

Ugh... Reading these threads make me glad about my last minute career change. I went to college to be a teacher, then switched and went into IT.

I went to a private high school. Classes were broken down by relative academic capability- they ran different programs for those that did well in school and those that did not. It had a mandatory military ROTC program and was run by Franciscan monks. They had NO problem passing out a failing grade, and your semester grade was your numeric average.

The school attracted people because they gave you an education *and* got your ass ready for college. Enrollment was limited to under 100 people per grade level- and people were always turned away.

I went to college to be a teacher, then switched and went into IT.

This is amusing to me because quite a few of my co-workers are pressuring me to switch from IT Administration to becoming a teacher. I usually laugh in their face, becuase I am in constant contact with teachers on an everyday basis, and there is no way in hell that I would ever attempt to do what a public school teacher does.

I have had teacher friends and co-workers tell me that it's degrading.

I agree very much that it all starts at home. Too many parents just don't give a shit, and it shows in their kids.

Marz... I did just what you are avoiding...

I went from IT Administration to teaching Computer Technology / IT Business Administration. And although I truly enjoy teaching, I often wish the students had more personal initiative to excel. It's so frustrating for a teacher to prepare a lesson, create a hands-on lab or activity with the whole class in mind, only to have two-thirds of them stay home for whatever reason. I often remind them that this sort of attendance will guarantee them a long wait in the unemployment line. Employers will not tolerate people who don't show up on time and ready to work.

For those who made comments about lowering the standards and allowing students to pass on to higher grades, let me give you a quick look at how it is for us in the trenches....

Recently at the school where I work, we were told that we could not factor "attendance" into the grades we give our students. Prior to this, attendance was 25% of the student's grade. Historically I failed more students for lack of attendance than for purely academic reasons. At this point, I can not fail a student who does not show up to class. If that student passes their tests and turns in homework on time and receives a passing grade, they pass the class.

This was not my doing... it was an administration edict... they were losing too much money because students were failing and could not get loans and grants because the failure rate was too high. Well, they fixed that...

Anyone want to buy a degree?? They're getting cheaper by the day....

Anyone need a good IT Administrator? I'm getting disillusioned more and more with each passing moment... <sigh>

About attendance...

I don't think attendance should directly influence grades. Sometimes, for various reasons, attending class is very unproductive, especially when class discussions and such don't have a significant impact on a student's understanding of the material (it might be important for a literature class, but not a math class for example).

For example, there was my multivariable calculus class. I showed up twice, just enough to realize that the professor's lecture methods did absolutely nothing for me. My friends in the class agreed. (Okay, it didn't help that it was an early morning class.) Instead we learned from the textbook, which had much better examples and clearer explanations. The course provided structure for learning from the book, so it's not like the money for the course was completely wasted. I think I tied for the second highest score on the final exam. Should I have failed because I didn't attend class, even though I clearly learned the material?

Now, if I was struggling with the material, or if some of the content of the course was supposed to come from class discussions or something, I'd have gone to class anyway even if I thought it wasn't helping.

KMA1234, you missed a grand ol' discussion on this a while back, where another board lurker tried to feed me that line of crap. Trust me, for what I'm paid and what I get through, putting up with this is far from job security. Rather, you might consider that teachers are doing what we do because we actually do care, and would like to see things change rather than sit back and point fingers.

I like teaching, as someone above pointed out I like seeing the little lights come on in their heads. I don't get paid well, I work far more hours than my contract calls for, take crap from parents and people like you, and I could make much more money with my degrees in another business. But what I do is important, whether fools like you realize it or not.

I could list for you the reforms that (IMHO) would fix most of the problems with the American school system. HOWEVER - Bush's new policy has been one of the leading backsteps, at least in my district. The hoops we have to jump through now get in the way of doing our jobs. Because of his policy other rules have been set at the state and district level preventing me from being able to do my job.

The public school system is far from a joke. I could have gone into the private sector and made more cash, but I chose public schools intentionally because that's where the work is needed. And you'll find schools full of people like me.

I will tell you now the problem isn't the students. It's the lack of parental support, legal support, and - in cases of people like you - community support. Last year when Arizona was in a severe budget crisis and the schools asked for help to keep teachers on and programs running, several communities turned their backs. So now I have classes with student counts in the 40's. 48 students in a required class, how many do you think actually work hard? How much time do you think I can spend on each one in any given week to actually try to inspire them?

But all isn't bleak. Despite the sudden ventings of teachers like myself, I have many awesome students who are willing to produce work above the level I saw in college. I have several core groups of students who are working on alternate lessons because they enjoy what they're learning and like working with me. The fact that this whole country isn't one big blithering uneducated mass already (shut up Halo :P) should tell you it does some good.

And on top of it all, I really love my job!


-Kanyli

As an aspiring educator, I must say that this thread scares the living shit out of me :p

Will, keep the faith and hang in there. Teaching is it's own reward. As much as I may gripe about it sometimes, I love teaching. There is nothing more rewarding than seeing a student who leaves and comes back sometime later to thank you for being hard on them, thanks you for teaching them in spite of themselves.

You'll never get rich teaching, but then money is not everything. I live comfortably and have enough left over to support my EQ habit, so I really have no complaints. But you have to love it... don't get into teaching because it sounds like a good job... it's not. You have to love it or you'll waste your college years and a good portion of the rest of your life.

To Palarran... I didn't mean to make such a big deal of attendance. I agree that attendance should not be the deciding factor in whether you pass or fail... in MOST circumstances. However, what I may not have made clear is that in our curriculum, we are a vo-tech school offering a degree program and our classes are geared for hands-on proficiency. A student who shows up 25% of the time simply can't participate in the group projects as a contributing member. This is not fair to the students who have to work twice as hard to take up the slack for those who don't come to school. For that reason I'm pissed because I can no longer flunk a student for poor attendance. I was mostly upset because the administrators took that motivational tool away from us... again... because of money. I thought we were here to teach, not simply fill the seats.

Ahh, you're right, for "hands-on" type classes attendance and participation are much more important.

I think I glossed over that part. I miss details like that when I'm raiding and reading message boards at the same time. :)

Knayli,

your masters (i use that term because you seem so willing to bow down and accept what they tell you to do, no matter what the consequences) tell me how best to spend MY money educating people that don't want to be educated. the return on my investment is a slap in the face. you fail miserably at your JOB every day. you said it yourself. you pass students that have no right to be passed. if they can't pass, then you have failed as a teacher. if you pass them anyway, you have failed as a member of society.

don't hide behind the excuse that your boss makes you do it.

if the public school system was anything other than a glorified day care, getting and keeping high enrollment numbers wouldn't be an issue. the schools that offer the best education, turn people away in droves. they turn them away because THEY DIDN'T WANT IT AS BAD AS THE NEXT PERSON (in most cases). just because you CHOOSE to put up with the bullshit you put up with, does not make your awe inspiring ineptitude any more noble or righteous.

as the old saying goes..those who can, do. those who can't, teach.

in my opinion, the school system in your district has found a keeper. you are suited perfectly for the public education profession. strive for mediocrity Kanyli.

Wow, you really don't get it, do you?

Don't accuse me of failing at my job. You know nothing about me, other than what the media chooses to tell you about failing teachers. Tell ya what, you can send me a PM with your phone number and address, and I'll arrange for you to spend the day with me at school. If you still think I'm so mediocre and lazy after that, then fair enough. Otherwise, stop feeding me recycled lines and twisting my words, and try to resist the flames in what has been a nice thread up until you jumped in.

I'm curious who my "masters" are, because I don't think you're following the thread very well. The people who aren't supporting me/the schools are not my "masters." Here I'll even quote myself since that's what you're referring to: "It's the lack of parental support, legal support, and - in cases of people like you - community support." My employers, school administration and so forth, are under the same pressure. Moreso, my "masters" are all people like me who are there to HELP the students as much as we can humanly manage.

The school board is elected by the public and establishes many of these policies. Bush was elected by the public, and influences many of the policies. So, where does that leave you? You ever done much in your life besides bitch to change things in the school? How did you vote on bond overrides and board elections?

Ah, and since you seem to be suggesting that private schools boast better records than public schools - quite often private schools are ranked behind (not always, of course) public schools. I've had home schooled students show up who were way behind in subjects. That's not to say they're all bad, at all, but you're not going to find a perfect school in the current environment.those who can, do. those who can't, teachThem's fightin' words. That's got to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard, and pretty well shows you're not paying attention here. Pedagogy is a profession like any other, takes time to learn and get good at, and is a conscious choice people make. I'll be fair and concede that there are a lot of bad teachers out there, many of whom fall into that category, but don't you dare try to put me in it. So my offer is out there. If you want to keep dragging me down, come into my classroom first. I'll even let you handle some of my parent complaints and see how you do trying to fail their kid. :evil

Willgatus, I have an awesome job. Pays crap, and there's people out there like KMA to drag ya down, but there are great rewards in it. In addition to what Gandaar said, you've got to love it, and you've also got to love the kids - even the lazy, bad attendance, can't hand in a paper to save their lives ones.

Ah, look at the time. I'm off to be mediocre and waste tax payer money! (Hey, actually sounds fun...)


-Kanyli

I'm sure events like <a href="http://www.currentargus.com/artman/publish/article_2163.shtml" target="_new">this</a> make a teachers job easier.

I'm sorry but accusing teachers of not doing their job, or doing it half ass or whatever is complete and utter bullshit.

I have worked with teachers almost every day, in 6 different schools for almost 5 years. The teachers I work with have become some of my best friends and pour their heart and soul into their job, only to be shitted on and pissed on by everyone and anyone. The amount of pressure they are under is unreal, and is the major factor in my resistance to become one.

You can bitch teachers out all you want, but what the FUCK do you do to help the students and their futures?

--

Haim G. Ginott
Between Teacher and Child

I have come to a frightening conclusion.
I am the decisive element in the classroom.
It is my personal approach that creates the climate.
It is my daily mood that makes the weather.
As a teacher I possess tremendous power to make a child's life miserable or joyous.
I can be a tool of torture or an instrument of inspiration.
I can humiliate or humor, hurt or heal.
In all situations, it is my response that decides whether a crisis will be escalated or de-escalated, and a child humanized or de-humanized.

Kany,

you just spent three posts worth of hand wringing telling us that people are passed that shouldn't be passed because your employers ENCOURAGE you to do it. you know what that tells me? your employers (and consequently, YOU, because you do nothing to confront them or change their attitudes) don't give a rats ass. you know why the public/parents don't support you? because the curriculum you teach is pathetic and the end result of the education received is worthless.

you know why i think you do what you do? you know in any other system, you would fail. the mindset you show in this thread by defending the system shows me you do not have what it takes to be successful and your true position in life is the one eyed man in the land of the blind. congrats. what exactly qualifies you to teach idiots how to be idiots?

if they aren't smart enough to pass the test then they should fail. if they fail, it is because you did not do your job. IE TEACH! if they don't want to learn then kick them out. if your MASTERS tell you they need butts in the seats to get their funding tell them to shove their funding up their ass because peoples futures and your self respect is worth more.

Marz it's abundantly clear to me why you have no future in teaching.

you know what certainly doesn't help students and their futures? the public education system. you look anyone in the eye that has put the hard work and effort into graduating from a decent school (that they or their parents PAID FOR!) with a decent GPA and tell them their diploma is worth the same as joe public school moron and they will laugh in your face. probably uncontrolably.

you know why companies ask you where you received your training/education? you know why certain applicants are sought after more than others? think hard. the answer is in there somewhere. quality pal, qaulity. the quality turned out by public schools and their staff is second rate. period. you know why? because people like kanyli continue to make excuses and refuse to be accountable for what they do.

--You can bitch teachers out all you want, but what the FUCK do you do to help the students and their futures?--

you flunk them. you kick them out of an environment where kids should be looking forward to bettering themselves and being optimistic about their futures, not where they see joe pothead being passed from grade to grade right along side of them. you slap that degenrate in the face with the reality of living in this world and being stupid. you know what happens? people see that guy. you know, the one sittin in the trench coat at the bus stop with a food stamp application in his hands and half of his top ramen stuck in his beard. that message is a whole lot more powerful than miss kany's pass em on and hope for the best.

you want me to pay for these programs without having an opinion? ha! shut me up. make my opinion irrelevant. privatize the school systems and keep the government the fuck out of it.

In my opinion, teaching is the most important job there is.

Someone said earlier "Those that can, do. Those that can't teach." Often that can be reversed to say "Those who can teach do, those who can't don't".

Remember for every brilliant innovator, there is a teacher who got them started.

Having worked in industry for a number of years, I know a lot of the "doers", and let me tell you most of them could not teach worth beans. People have different talents. Some are very creative thinkers, business owners and inventors, but are not talented at communicating ideas. Some are great at communicating and teaching but not at the "doing" side of things. A lucky few are talented at both and make their bundle in industry, but then take up teaching afterwards. Society needs both types of people.

On to another subject, it is clear to me that education needs an overhaul in general. Far too many kids just coming out of school are ignorant of the world, other cultures and the history of our world. When Halo or someone pokes fun at Americans for their apparent lack of simple geographical knowledge, I have to cringe because it is true in far too many instances.

I got out of high school with a pretty decent education. I know where Chechnya is, or the Ivory Coast or where have you. I have a reasonable grasp of world history. But I have met twenty year olds who don't even know where Canada is or who fought in the second world war. Something happened between 1979 and today to lose the formula. I wish I knew what it was.

Dear KMA:

I have a question for you: Do you think it is fair to penalize children because their parents don't give a damn about their education? By suggesting that education be privatized, this is exactly what you are advocating. Public education, by being available to all, performs the crucial (to a democracy) function of making sure that *all* children at least get a decent education and a shot at making something out of their lives. Let me tell you a few actual 'stories from the front' here in Laredo that Faervas and I just had thrust upon us in the last couple of weeks...

There is a young student in the Art department for the last three semesters named Ursula, whom Faervas has had the pleasure of watching develop as an artist. She is extremely talented and insightful for her age despite coming up in the mediocre at best public schools here, and over the last year, she has put her portfolio together (Faervas and Ms. Solis helped her photograph it) and sent off an application to the prestigious Art Institute of Chicago. They were so impressed with her that they offered her a full scholarship without even requiring an interview (which she could not afford). It is an incredible, life-changing opportunity, only there's one hitch: Her own parents are putting the screws to her not to go. The pressure started as follows: When Ursula first came home, elated, with the news that she had been accepted, her own father sneered at her, gestured at her older sister (who at 20 is already married with a baby), and said 'Why don't you do something useful with your life?'.

When she persisted, her parents started pressuring her to stay in school here in Laredo (which has no school of any kind which offers even a BA in Art, much less such an renowned one). When she announced to them this week that this is what she wanted to do with her life, that she was going to go anyway, they played the trump card and informed her that if she close to do this, they would take away her truck and anything else of value that they had given to her. These are her own parents, who undoubtedly love her, and did not hesitate to let her older brother leave town to go to college (in fact, they paid for it), but they are traditional and do not see the value of higher education for females.

Yes, this attitude does still exist, and this is not an isolated case; I wrote a letter of recommendation for a scholarship for a young lady in my Microbiology course this week whom, when I asked about why she wished to go into nursing, said 'So that I can take care of my parents.' She wanted to be a biochemist, and to go to school in Austin, but when she mentioned such to her family, her father said to her: 'What if you leave town, and your mother or I die while you are gone (mom has diabetes, but they are in their *forties*)? So, she is going to nursing school, and despite an exemplary academic record, is only applying to the two local, not very stellar, schools. She told me that perhaps she could go back to school at some future time or find some other way to do what she was interested in when life circumstances allowed it...

Story #3: There is a young man in my major's biology course this semester who is chronically late, and obviously has had a rough upbringing; he has prison/gang-style tattoos down both forearms, and varies between being belligerent and sheepish in my class. Despite the fact that his attendence is spotty, he is one of the brightest students in the class, is the only one who ever asks questions, and the questions are both thought provoking and born out of genuine curiosity. He missed a lab where a practical was being given a couple of weeks ago, and when I asked him about it the next class period he apologized and said that his stepfather had been arrested in some town several hours away late the night before, and that he had had to go bail him out of jail and get him, and more importantly the family truck, home. I can just *imagine* how much support he got with his schoolwork as a kid, eh?

None of these students would even have had a *chance* to aspire to higher education were it not for the public school system; their parents, for various reasons, don't understand the importance of education, and I'm willing to bet that in all of these cases, they would not have cared enough about their children's education to send them to private school for cost (if they could afford it), or even if they were given vouchers. Public education, for all its flaws, ensures that children at least have the *opportunity* to develop their aptitudes and aspire to their potential - even if many don't realize its value until later, when they return to school in their 20s, 30s, 40s, or later.

I think that we as Americans who are trying to fix our public education system need to realize that equal *opportunity* doesn't mean that students are *identical* (which is absurd), and have identical needs. Furthermore, coming up with blanket standardized tests and tying them to school funding does nothing to fix the problems associated with a curriculum which is already too generalized and focused on rote memorization and regurgitation. When President Clinton came out in 1996 and announced that he envisioned an America where 'Every child goes to college', I thought: 'What a cretin!' (and I am considerably left of center on most issues). There's nothing wrong with assessing students and tracking them into coursework that suits their aptitudes and needs, as long as it is done in an unbiased manner - the 'general college preparatory' curriculum that is dished out at most secondary schools serves almost no students well. What we need are more school to work co-ops, more vocational/technical classes, more *relevant* coursework offered to kids who are not of an academic bent, so that they both benefit from the experience, and don't drag down academic class quality for the students who have those interests and aptitudes... but those programs take money, and for the last 10 years, we've been moving in the opposite direction, *narrowing* the range of diversity of school curricula for the sake of making those standardized test scores...

Well, I've run on at the mouth again. KMA, you might want think about what you are advocating, before you open yours again :) ...

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2"> Public education, for all its flaws, ensures that children at least have the *opportunity* to develop their aptitudes and aspire to their potential</blockquote>

So does a library card.

Educational opportunities go well beyond the *public* schools, as is evidenced in the venue where I teach. I am the senior instructor at a private vocational-techinical school where those who can't or don't want to go to conventional colleges or universities can still get an education.

On a day to day basis I see people from all walks of life, some who really care where they are headed and some who are not sure what city they are in when they wake up in the morning. I see the rich kid who is simply there because momma and daddy are paying his tuition and make him come to school to satisfy a judge's idea of what rehabilitation should be. I see urban street kids with jail/gang tattoos up and down their arms who seem to have discovered that there IS a way out, and they want out. I see those who are not sure if they have a place to stay at night, and get their education paid for *in full* at state or federal expense, but only show up when they feel like it because they don't like school. And then I see the man who is working two jobs with a wife and a couple of kids to support, who is trying to make his life better, but can't get enough to cover his school costs because he *makes too much*. I see the young mother of three kids who is trying to make a better life but misses a day of class almost every week because of an abusive husband/boyfriend, and since she has no place else to go, she can't leave him. You want to talk about hypocrisy and inequity? Show me how this is fair.

I'm supposed to come into class and with a wave of my hand make all these problems go away for the time that they are in class. I'm supposed to create an environment for the students to be able to learn and get the most of their education. I know that statistically only 60 percent of those in my class will finish the program and get their degree. The rest will drop out or be dropped due to academic failure. Oh yeah, and those student loans and grants? You and I are paying for them with our tax dollars.

I am committed to the profession I have chosen. I regard the trust placed in my hands as something that can be used for good or bad. I have found that besides teaching the courses according to the curriculum, I have to teach other skills that they should have learned since grade school, skills like teamwork, discipline, personal responsibility, and self-respect. Once a week in my class I have "Professional Day". This is the last day of the week and my students are required to show up for class in business attire... men are to be dressed in a shirt and tie (suit optional), women are to be in similar appropriate dress (slacks/business suits acceptable). Why? Because most of these people have little or no idea how to conduct themselves in a job interview, much less in a workplace. Is this the fault of the government run and subsidized public school system? No, these skills should have been learned at HOME.

There are no juvenile delinquents. Delinquency is defined as a lack of responsibility and discipline. Responsibility is an adult trait. We have adult delinquents (parents who don't care and won't support students), but no juvenile delinquents.

Those who can do, and those who can't, teach? I don't think so. I can do the job, I am doing the job on a daily basis, and I teach as well. Besides teaching, I run a consulting business on the side to supplement my income. I find things in my daily routine that I use in the classroom to illustrate points. I find things in my classroom that I use to set the path for how I will run my business. I have been teaching and doing for 20 years, and I still love them both. Before you start throwing jabs at those of us who are responsible for shaping and forming the lives of our students, walk a mile in our shoes.

I started down the road on this career choice with high ideals and the intention of changing the world. Right now, I'm just happy to be able to touch the lives of those around me. I realize I can't change the world, only my small part of it. I do it every day.....I teach.

Privatizing all the schools will just create a buttload of uneducated people but you are too dense to get that. All you see is my money my money my money.

as opposed to the rocket scientists the public system is turning out today.

privatizing schools will FORCE the pos school system to adapt.

you feel so strongly about the right of the crack whore's baby getting an education, then by all means, pay for it. if you think its worth hundreds of dollars a year to teach kids about heather's two mommies, fine, pay for it. with your money, not mine. its important enough that you think I should pay for it. you do it. the public school system is no different from any other government run program. it fails miserably and costs enormous ammounts of money. my money. the taxes you and your stupid feel good do nothing policies cost me each year is enough to keep me from being able to make choices for myself that better meet my needs. whether thats paying for a child of my own's school of choice, or making a house payment, or car payment, or any other finacial choices I choose to make. in return for that money i get what? the warm fuzzy feeling you people get from knowing little johnny has a place to go all day to do absolutely nothing?

your sympathy and compassion do nothing for kids that get passed thru schools with barely a 5th grade education. education isnt a fucking right. driving a car isnt a fucking right. people are not entitled to everything. parents that see the importance of an education and instill values in their children do not send their children to public schools because they know they suck. they suck because they are government run by people like kanyli and supported by enough of the lowest common denominator in our society, like Kinuvan.

you know why you have a hard time getting bond issues passed? because the people are tired of you wasting their money and have come to the point where enough is enough. get off the public tit and do like any other system has to do, produce or fail. you can't produce. you can't produce because everything you stand for crumbles under the weight of logic and common sense.

the bright intelligent students in the public schools deserve much better than what you deem appropriate and acceptable. how many metal detectors do you see in your local private schools? i gaurantee you the rate is much higher in public schools. everyday in inner city public high schools, violence is a routine fact of life. thats something to be proud of and protected? are you that stupid? thats conducive to learning?! you know why its like that? because there are enough SUCKERS like yourself that support the idea that everyone is ENITLED to an education which facilitates the policies and protocol that allow violence and abuse and socially unacceptable behaivor to run rampant in the schools.

your sympathy and compassion do nothing for kids that get passed thru schools with barely a 5th grade education. education isnt a fucking right. driving a car isnt a fucking right. people are not entitled to everything. parents that see the importance of an education and instill values in their children do not send their children to public schools because they know they suck. they suck because they are government run by people like kanyli and supported by enough of the lowest common denominator in our society, like Kinuvan.


I'm sensing some bitterness here. Were you perhaps failed by Kanyli, or someone like her? :)

But really though, I think that in the largely democratic, rich, industrialized western world we live in, education should not only be a right, but it should be our *duty* to educate others.

I went through public school myself - I think I turned out okay. Your point is taken, though - something does need to be done about the state of public schools, in some form or another. The state of education in the general school systems, as has been stated already, is laughable.

--Cen

Edit: Typoooosssss at 3:00am.

I have a question for you: Do you think it is fair to penalize children because their parents don't give a damn about their education? By suggesting that education be privatized, this is exactly what you are advocating. Public education, by being available to all, performs the crucial (to a democracy) function of making sure that *all* children at least get a decent education and a shot at making something out of their lives.



it isn't my responsibility to provide for other people's children. my family, their kids, my close friend's and their kids? sure, i'd be willing to help em out with tuition if they needed it. see the difference? it's my choice. you force me to give you my money so you can teach children..nothing? they aren't passing. they aren't learning. what do you spend it on? focus groups and seminars? pensions and 401k's?

i didn't read the rest of your post as i don't think anectdotal sob stories and inspirational anomalies make your case any stronger. the statistics are overwhelming. the education received in public schools is sub standard. i'd be curious to see the percentage of public school graduates that were accepted into ivy league schools this semester. wouldn't you? ask yourself why? ask em in ten years if the money it cost them was worth it. if the sacrifices they made, or their parents made, were understood and appreciated.

the public schools are full of students that don't care about their education. private schools are full of people who KNOW the only way is through education. thats not by accident.

you're damn right the parents of most of the children in public schools are horrible parents that don't give a rats ass about their kids education. is it my responsibility to do their job for them? hell no it isn't. it isn't your's either. don't preach to me about morallity while you participate in and earn a living from a system devoid of any itself.

as rich as this country is, i think everyone has a right to lots of money and its our *duty* to provide it.

you know why people make money? they work. you seem to have figured that out. you know why people get a good education? because they work at it. you seem to have figured that out too. the people that don't figure that out are the ones that Kanyli and Kinuvan and Nydia seem to be so concerned about protecting and im so concerned about paying for. (bad grammar alert!)

I m french dude not american like you seems to think. Our education system is majorly public ( 80% or +). It works fine but then french educational system is known to be fairly good.

I speak 3 languages obviously its not that bad now is it? I finished my studies and I m working now, school till 18 (17 for me was always one year younger compared to regular students) for the general system then 2 years of specialization (BTS).

Anyway Nydia: Here, we have 2 different systems called BEP and CAP for people that don't like theorics studies. You start at around 15 years old and you are in specialized classes. Works pretty good. Otherwise you do what I did, BAC till 18 then specialize in what you guys call colleges (universitées).

PS for KMA: In theory you are supposed to use that little maj key every time you start a sentence, should go take english night classes in a public school :p Anyway must be late for you so I guess thats the reason :)

Well.. The problem is pretty simple.
If you look at American schools as a whole, youll notice something.

We have some of the absolute best colleges and universities in the world.. People come from all over the planet to attend some of these.
Yet you look at the Public school system, and you see some pretty pathetic systems, failing children... in some places.. yet you can look sometimes one town over and see a perfectly wonderful school.
The simple, republican answer is Private schools. To set education on the free market system. An interesting idea.. and no doubt would create some absolutly fantastic schools... but it would create some amazingly bad ones as well. Your ability to achieve a quality education would be determined by your parents ability to pay.

To me, the answer is in how schools are funded.. Schools get their budgets and money from towns, who levy taxes on its citizens to pay for the schools.
This has destroyed the city schools. As people have become more mobile, many who make more money have moved out to the suburbs. Dwindling the tax base in large Cities and greatly expanding it in small outskirt towns.
As a result, people with Children (i.e. people 24-55 aka known as people with jobs) want the best for their kids. So they dont live in the cities, they move to these newer, more well funded schools. Property values in these towns rise as more people in the prime of their earning careers want to live in them, as property values rise, so do taxes... more tax revenue, means even better schools, better everything.
Cities continue to decay. Everything gets worse. Less money is coming in. Less services can be provided. Inner city schools are dominated now by children from 1 parent households, whose parents cant afford to move to decent school district, work too much, and cant be there to discipline and help their children in school and be active in school community. Kids are disenfranchised. They never have a realistic chance to learn as so much is stacked against them right from the beginning. Compound this with the influx of drugs and a fast moving, over sexed and over violent culture and you have what we have today. People dont start businesses where they dont want to bring up their Families.

The opposite is true in the Suburbs

What we need to do is to take the funding of schools away from towns and give it in the hands of the state. Funding to schools based on a per student basis. Inner City schools HAVE to be rebuilt and rejuvinated. They NEED to become places where parents WANT to send children. Then people will start moving back to the Cities, staying in the cities, giving back.

Ahhhh. You mean you know absolutely nothing about what's being discussed in this thread yet you feel compelled to comment and judge? i see, french. makes perfect sense to me now.

anyway, (0h n0zs n0 capital letterzzz!1!one!!11!) my point was still applicable if you, and people like you, think everyone is entitled to an education and think it's my place to provide it for them. yer wrong.

Well I never said I knew anything specific to the subject aside from a lot of americans not beeing able to talk their own language correctly. I was just informing myself and learning some stuff.

So ya I m one of those people that think everyone should get a chance at some education regardless of how much money they/their parents have. Correct me if I m wrong but you seems to only be out for youself really since you are so bothered about some money you pay each year that may help to keep public schools going?

Ps: You should do yourself a favor and go back to english school while you are at it. Private school since you are so fond of them, that will help you talk and write your own language correctly. I do at least have an escuse, you really don't and thats quite sad :)

Hey Kan, just curious as to which high school you teach at? I know this doesn't really pertain to the topic at hand, but seeing as I"m a high school senior in the same city, it'd be interesting to know!

I had the choice between private/public school. When it came down to it, I picked public simply because it was 24 bucks a year as opposed to 2 grand a year at the private school.

Then again, if I could have I would have just spent 2 years at the library and applied for a GED if that wasn't such a joke to begin with.

had the choice between private/public school. When it came down to it, I picked public simply because it was 24 bucks a year as opposed to 2 grand a year at the private school.

Then again, if I could have I would have just spent 2 years at the library and applied for a GED if that wasn't such a joke to begin with.

Actually most public schools cost near the same as most lower end private schools, remember what you dont pay in tutition your paying in taxes(course..that doesnt apply in some cases..)

<--------Used librairy technique. It works. and getting GED well your very young is alot more impressive then at say 19

edited in:Getting a near perfect on it helps too..dumb essays

As for the subject, I personally plan on Homeschooling my children, since it fits my schedule, and I'd prefer to take a active role in their curriculum, Making sure they learn useful things and are prepared for life, I'd never pay anyone to do a Job I felt I could do myself.

you still participating in this thread kinu? well i guess i should be thankful you've dropped the subject of the american public school systems and moved on to another subject you excel in, the english language.

make the french proud kinu, make em proud.

i apologize if the lack of a capital letter after a period frightens and confuses you to the point of not being able to comprehend my posts. however, if thats all it takes to do so, this thread is not the place for you nor is it my place to help you through it.

no wonder you got deguilded.

What's with all the personal attacks, KMA?

What does his being French or his internal EQ affairs have anything to do with his opinion on the state of public education? Sure, he may not be the most equipped to talk about the state of public education from within the U.S. itself, but he certainly should be able to be offer his opinion about the state of public education in general without having to be attacked for it. Chill out.

--Cen

Edit: Typos and some other stuff

i appreciate the time and thought that went into your post and after several seconds of reflection and meaningful soul searching, i've decided not to take your advice.

would you participate in a discussion on a public messageboard about life as a black man in communist russia? why not? entertainment value not withstanding, i would tell you the same thing i told kinuvan.

the attitude and ignorance Kinuvan displays on this board is what contributes to his reputation in game and is directly reflected in his guildmate/officer/guildleader's decision to deguild him.

hes an asshat.

I m curious but what are you talking about dude? Last I knew I m still guilded. So how about you just drop your attacks? Just because I m french doesn't mean I can't talk about it eh. I m giving my opinion from someone that live outside the USA, you know there are different countries in the world right? Thought it was an interesting subject to see how others countries educate people.

On a side note, it thought it was kinda funny that you talk about how cluesless I am with USA educational system then you come up and try to talk about internal EW affairs like if you knew anything about it. So how about you take your own advice and shove it far up your ass where it may connect with your brain?

I ll post if someone actually post something interesting instead of your personal attacks toward me my nationality or what I do in game. Flame on now if you want :) I m not answering you anymore.

Edit: I ll make you somewhat less ignorant, the big majority of EW don't read this board because they think its a lot of trash. So next time you try to make a point don't use flawed data :)

i never said you were guildless. i said you had been deguilded for being an asshat.

whether you admit it or not makes little difference to me. if that's all it takes to keep you from posting on a thread you know nothing about, then i wish i had thought of that about 6 posts ago. however, from past experience i know you can't stop posting your ignorance so i look forward to reading any response you may have.

i thought it was kinda funny seeing as what a low opinion the majority of EW has for these boards, that they would come post their pathetic open recruitment thread here, of all places. hypocritical? very much so.

KMA:

Your opinions about education aside, if you want to make a post slamming EW, take it to another thread please :)

As far as the issue of education in other countries goes, I for one (and I'd guess some of the other educators here as well) am very *interested* in how other countries design and route students through their educational system. I learned a lot from a Japanese penpal I had growing up about that system and, for example, how they live in terror of the college entrance exams (and consequently study hard for them), but once they are in, they're in, and so the students are notorious for screwing off ;) .

I'm really interested in finding out, from the non-US folks that hang out here, the following:

1) If you were given standardized tests while in school that had a 'do or die' impact on your future choices, at what age were they given? How do students treat these exams?

2) How often are students assessed using standardized tests that *aren't* 'do or die' for the student, but are used country-wide or district-wide, and if so, for what purpose are these tests used?

3) How much individual choice or say do students have in designing/choosing their secondary school coursework, independent of how they might be 'tracked' using standardized tests?

4) Is there a 'second chance' or 'salvage option' available for folks who might not have gotten into the program they wished, but wished to try again at a later date, or as an adult?

Thanks in advance :)

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

Hmm I ll take time to answer those questions tonight but I think the best would be to also have a discussion directly ingame because I d most likely have to explain the whole system for you to understand considering its way complex and way far from USA system.

Nydia beat me too it, I was going to post almost the same thing. Considering the reputation some European countries have for education, I'm very interested in what Kinuvan has to say. Along with anyone else who wants to chime in without personal attacks.

KMA, you'll be delighted to hear that I failed a student yesterday. Yep, no homework turned in all semester, and she was surprised that she had 40% in my class. About an hour after school I got a call from her father, yelling at me about lowering his daughter's GPA (Grade Point Average) with my "blowoff" class, and boarderline threatening to have his family lawyer call me. No, I didn't back down on this one, but this is the kind of nonsense we're talking about here. Lets say he carries through, I get fired (if he cares to drag it before the school board) or sued...now, anything I might have had of value to offer to other students is lost to them. And this is not an uncommon occurance where I work.you're damn right the parents of most of the children in public schools are horrible parents Check that - despite our whining, it's usually a vocal minority. Thankfully. I have some awesome parents volunteering time and money to help my program.

Daidal, drop me a tell in game. I'm fairly unique where I work, rather not advertise who I am and how to telephone me on this board. :)


-Kanyli

my apologies Nydia, from now on, i will ask permission from you before i post in any thread to make sure it doesn't make you uncomfortable or anxious in any way.

seriously, get over your control issues. you aren't a board mommy or a hall monitor so yank yer panties out and contribute what you feel is pertinent and i'll chose for myself what is, and isn't, entertaining to me.

my problem isn't that kinu has an opinion on education in general or france specifically. i do have a problem with someone that has no experience or fact or knowledge on the subject being discussed, to back up his opinion on said subject, in which he criticizes someones points, with the grand ol retort "you so st0000pid".

it shows how little his opinion matters and its entertaining to me to point it out to him in a way that makes him uncomfortable.

i as well, am fascinated by the french's solution to educating its people and would love to read voluminous posts by an authority on the subject, like kinuvan. i could spend hours and hours reading his broken, butchered, english prose and enjoy every minute of it. IF HE KNEW WTF HE WAS TALKING ABOUT! which he doesn't in this particular thread. which was my point.

Ok going to try and answer you, sorry in advance for broken english.

1) Ok we do have standardized tests: one at the end of college (Middle school for you I think ? not sure 15 years old if you didn't fail any class). It used to be important 50 years ago when the amount of people getting to lyçee (high school) wasn't big but now its really meaningless.
Its noted on 200 ( regular test are on 20, 0 beeing the worse.). 3 different tests, one on french one on math and one on geography/history. Each of those are on 40 so 120 total. You need 160 to pass the test so they basically take the average result of your tests during the last 2 years of college and multiply by 10. So myself I had 15.3 over the 2 years so I had 153 points already before passing the tests( 7 points weren't exactly too hard to get out of 120). That test is easy, people don't really prep for it unless they really did crap during the last 2 years.

After this you enter lyçée (high school I think, run up to 18 ) if you want to keep a fairly general teaching and mainly theoric or you can do BEP/CAP if you want to go manual (technician, baker,butcher etc etc).
If you pick second ones its in 2 years and alternate school and stages in companies. Once you have it you can either choose to go work or keep mastering the job you were learning and get what is called professional BAC then BTS (superior technician degree) mainly for comp stuff.

First one you have a lot of options but I ll answer that in 3. At the end of the 3 years you have the big exam which is called BAC and is basically the minimum required if you want a job that pay. Its basically a lot of tests in the different classes you took.
Its the same tests for every single student of france for the year.Math/physic/french/bio/languages/philosophy/sport. they have different coefficients (sp? weighted notes basically) which mean if you took scientific way ( more on this later) your math note would be noted coef 9 ( I.E final note will be multiplyed by 9 so on 180) while french one would be on coef 3. This is not multiple answers test. They are very long tests where you tend to have to put out pages of writings.

This test stress students a lot, they tend to study a LOT for it ( you have one month and half or so to prep for it). Final note is the average of all your notes including the weighted notes system and is on 20. You need 10 to get it but you ll only be able to get into mediocres universitées/school (colleges for you) with that note. 14 + beeing needed for interesting things. Depending on the years the difficulty vary some (basically depends on which teacher create the test).


2) Ok hmm we don't have standardized test here if I understood it correctly. We don't have multiple answers test either. The teachers are free to give as many test as they want during the year to test ( ya redundant) their students. If you want a quick exemple, in high school a geography test would be an essay about world war II that gotta be several pages long and done in 2h or so. Same for most letter classes, most scientifics classes have what is called here problemes: You have a question and must develope and explain how you got your results. Tend to be fairly horrible in math/physic during the last years of high school ( bad memories of 2/3 pages full of numbers and equations :p ).

Now all the notes you get are kept in a folder ( not sure on the word) and when you want to get into a superior school (private or public) they look at it, if you had really great notes they can take you without any test ( very high notes ) else you have to pass a test for entry or they can just decide to not let you a chance if they consider it too low.

3) Ok now about choices,you have a few choice swhen you enter college ( middle school ), like picking your languages (spanish/english/german/italian, english beeing required) and picking latin/greek or special sports for people doing sport at very high lvl (sport doesn't really have the same place in france than in the USA). Once you enter lyçée if you went that way (already explained for BEP/CAP and manual jobs) you have a lot more options, teachers can give you advise but there are no standardized tests so you can pick pretty much anything you want.

In the first year of lycee (seconde), you still have a fairly general teaching but you can take some options like economy, computers or arts/theater (not a lot of schools have that so depends on where you live) etc.

At the end of the year, depending on your results the teachers give you advises on what you should take then you make a choice. You have a lot of differents ways from there and I can't really explain them all (too long and my english isn't good enough anyway to translate), mainly you can pick between a premiere S ( scientific ), L ( letters), ES (economy and social), STT/STI (special sections, tend to be considered as classes for slackers sadly) etc etc. This lead you to the BAC of the same name which will be required in a lot of schools/colleges after high school meaning if you have a BAC L there are no chance you will get in a prepa math ( 2 years of pure mathematic for very high engineering school, masochist only!) or a scientific university.

I ll just take S exemple because its what I did so easier to explain. S classes are composed by what is considered the best students (thats quite a lot of BS but S basically open you to any job because its still fairly general while other options are fairly specialized, you only have 4h of math per week in L).
In S you have a LOT of math/bio/physic hours ( 9 in math per week don't remember the rest something like 6/6), whatever languages you picked (2 required), some french, history/geography (same class), sport + whatever option you picked (computers/arts etc etc). Once you hit the last year of lyçée (terminale), french completly drop (the test for the BAC is at the end of premiere along with bio.). And you can spe in one teaching (math/bio/physic) which is basically very high teaching and spe (did math and was a hell). The main thing people bitch about beeing its mostly useless as 95% of the people studying that wont ever use it for their job in RL (I don't think many people use orbitale equations nowaday :p ).
Anyway all in all we have no people getting forced to take things or dismissed from what they want unless they are REALLY bad at it.

4) Not exactly sure what you mean by second chance, until university ( colleges for you) and other kind of high lvl schools you can try pretty much as long as you want albeit you will end up having problems to find schools that will take you if you are really too old for the class (in my college there was a guy that was in 6eme which is for 12 years old and was 15 shrug). After that for private schools/medical schools etc general rules is 2 tries then out but it vary a lot and I m not really good on that subject.

You can't go to college if you are over 17/18 pretty much albeit its not written rules but no school would take you and you can't really stay in lyçéee over 21. Aside from that you can follow classes by the mail (CNED) at any age in any lyçée class you want. When it comes to universitées etc there is no age limit so you can do it even if you are 50 +.
Until you hit universitée you don't really have problems picking the program you want, not as far as I know anyway and I don't know anyone that had such a problem. After high school its different as universitée don't have unlimited room in classes and they naturally take the best first.


Ok well I tried to answer your questions with my broken and butchered english, if I wasn't clear on anything just say so I ll try to explain better. Its hard to answer without explaining how the whole system work and I m sure I worded some things wrong anyway, gave it a try :)

Edit: School is pretty much free unless you go into private schools but they are a minority for very rich people(not saying they all suck but a lot of rich kids go there and don't have to do squat to advance which is why I dislike them). After high school you have to pay for it, its often paid by the country if you go in an universitée but you gotta pay for private superior schools and you tend to pay a lot 8p.

Just adding my two cents.


Screw any national education systems, IB is the way to go! :)

Ok well I tried to answer your questions with my broken and butchered english, if I wasn't clear on anything just say so I ll try to explain better. Its hard to answer without explaining how the whole system work and I m sure I worded some things wrong anyway, gave it a try


You explained it well, or at least I understood it perfectly, Thanks.

Thanks for the post Kinuvan. It does remind me of other systems I've heard of (German?) that require certain grades (notes) and test scores to proceed on to the next level, even determining school choice.

The US doesn't quite do that, not in actuality. It's possible to keep changing schools to get around restrictions. As long as you graduate with a high school diploma or GED, you're mostly set on finding a 'decent' job. I think in the mid 90's it was something around 20% of the American workforce actually had a college degree, not sure where that number sits now.

And, erm, like I said in game, your English is better than some of the posters here who are native speakers, so we'll take it broken or otherwise. Shoot, you found the Caps Lock key and Enter key, so right off you know you've got something going for ya!


-Kanyli

parents that see the importance of an education and instill values in their children do not send their children to public schools because they know they suck. they suck because they are government run by people like kanyli and supported by enough of the lowest common denominator in our society, like Kinuvan.

This statement alone puts you in the running for Twatwaffle of the Year.

parents that see the importance of an education and instill values in their children do not send their children to public schools because they know they suck.

Hmm...
What of the parents who send their very good student to Public School instead of Private School beacuse:

They know that the child will dominate the Public School and (most likely) wind up number one or two in their class.

They know if the child went to Private School, this was less likely to happen, because a lot of the other "good students" went there.

Being ranked as Valedictorian or Salutatorian increases your odds of getting into a better college, even if the school at which these honors are earned is not as good as a private school?

Not that that EVER happens...

Dear Kinuvan:

Thanks for the detailed reply! And your English is much better than my French is, as I haven't had to use it much since high school :) . I'm still digesting it all, but will probably have a few questions/clarifications to ask you once I get through it...

It sounds like there are a lot of similarities between your system and ours and a few key differences. I really really wish we could give more essay exams here, in all subjects, not just literature and history - but it takes time to write and grade such exams, and in the interests of speed and standardization such methods of assessment are avoided like the plague here. These exams are also disliked/feared in the U.S. because of concerns about lack of consistency or bias in grading, since they must be graded individually. I think that they are one of the key elements that has largely been processed out of the American educational system, though.

It's one thing to memorize a list of meaningless, disconnected facts and regurgitate them, and another thing entirely to take the information you have learned and then have to use it to formulate and synthesize an answer to a question, and communicate that information in a coherent way. The latter method helps to cement the knowledge in the students minds and helps ensure that something gets carried with them once they leave your class, and the ability to communicate coherently is something that will serve them throughout their lives regardless of what they do. I include a few short answer/essay questions on all my tests, although, referring back to the beginning of this thread, they don't always fare so well on these ;) .

There is an fad going on in education right now in the US where students are encouraged to *diagram* out their answer to questions. While I appreciate that this is a nice way to get students to think through a process (and address differences in learning style), it shouldn't replace having to write out an answer to a problem (although there's nothing wrong with including diagrams).

It sounds like France is doing something right with the separate tracks for high school. As I said above, I think that proper tracking of students (and relevant coursework for them) once they reach their mid teens would go a long way towards solving our problems with dropouts, disruptive environments, and watered down, meaningless classes and standardized exit tests.

I figured that you did have some sort of 'do or die' exam with regard to college admissions, although it sounds like the situation is less cut and dried than that (I'll have to read all that again when I've had more coffee ;) ).

This has run on at the mouth a bit, but thanks again for your post :) . Any of you other non-US folks feel like telling us about your system and experiences with it?

Warm regards,
Nydia

This statement alone puts you in the running for Twatwaffle of the Year.


spoken like a true scholar. welcome to a thread you seem to need a whole lot more than i do. someone shoulda saved you the time and effort it took to come up with such a cute 4th grade come back and just yanked your head outa yer ass to begin with. dazzle me with your brillance son. by all means, don't hurt yourself and actually put any thought into your posts or add anything meaningful to the discussion.

go back to your cereal and cartoons until you can come up with some original ideas and express them like an adult. go do some research and prove to me that public education surpasses private school education in ANY way whatsoever. please tell me how proud you are of your GED and i will sleep so much better tonight. ignorant little kid.

Amhorach,

i never said there weren't smart students in the public school system. i'm not an admissions staffer so i can't speak with any authority on requirements or the wieght of any statistic over another but i'd be willing to bet a valadictorian from a public school would succeed and do well in any school. for a parent to forego any other options for their child's education simply to gaurantee them that status is sad. i'd equate it to an able bodied person placing first in the special olympics and claiming they are a champion.

You argue that the only choice a responsible parent would make is to send their child to a private school. If you think to offer yourself as an example of the superiority of private education then I suggest your parents speak with the institutions they sent you to and request a refund.

Since it is glaringly obvious you lack any depth of understanding I merely offered an insult you would be able to comprehend. I don't think troglodyte is in your vocabulary.

go do some research and prove to me that public education surpasses private school education in ANY way whatsoever.

Here again you display your limited viewpoint. Successful education involves far more than a school to ship your children off to. Had your parents understood this simple concept you might not be here touting a part of the equation as the sole source of the flaws in our educational system.

please tell me how proud you are of your GED and i will sleep so much better tonight. ignorant little kid.

Oh! Here we are, the penultimate insult. I said a naughty word, I must be a child! :rollin

When you begin to grasp the things that make a person a "scholar" (hint: how much money your piece of paper cost isn't it) you might have something to add to the debate. Until then I suggest you follow Zehn's advice and get a library card. My nephew just returned "Clifford, The Big Red Dog".

Before insulting all public schools, ever bother to check lists of the best schools?

2 or 3, if not more, of the best schools in Chicagoland over the last 10 years have been public schools.

for a parent to forego any other options for their child's education simply to gaurantee them that status is sad.

Not quite. Perhaps more like a top salary baseball player electing to play on the farm team.
Also, while you are knocking GEDs- the smartest person I knew got a GED so they could enter college early.

The real beauty of a public school?
Anyone can go.

how proud you are of your GED


Was that person me?

GED is the most prestigious diploma you can have...

If
1.)you get a near perfect score:

2.)do it before your 16(14 here!)

Knocking a GED is ignorant, it really is ,
the biggest reason GEDs are even taken at this point is to advance through school faster.
You might be surprised but in the real world.. the "Equivalency" Diploma is just that..Equivalent..

This is not a criticism of private schools, but my own family subscribed to the theory that it was best to keep Becky and I in public schools (despite being advised to put me, in particular, in one and skip me a grade as well), so that we'd have an idea of what the 'real world' was like. My dad was a military man, as was his father before him, and he didn't want to have us grow up in an artificial environment or risk us developing an elitist view of the world (it would also have been financially extremely difficult for them). He felt very strongly that you had to be able to understand and get along with all kinds of people in order to make a success of yourself in life, and I am happy to say that that is one of the things that I took from him.

The end result was that I was not often challenged in secondary school, didn't develop good study habits until after I flunked out of college my first time in, and got beat up frequently in middle school, but despite this, I am glad that I went to public school. I had several superb teachers, especially in the sciences and in English, and as someone who has her head in the clouds a lot of the time I can say that I benefitted from the socialization experience that public school forced on me, as painful as it sometimes was.

Despite being overworked, underpaid, and frequently stressed, my public school teachers found time to care about me, endure and listen to my hopelessly verbal processing mode in class, and provide me with encouragement. *Their* belief is what gave me the desire and more importantly the will to keep trying to further my education, and I finally completed my B.S. at age 31 (after three attempts, interrupted by different life circumstance changes), and my M.S. at 37. One of these days if I can ever find the time and energy, I intend to finish out my doctorate, sigh, been hedging my bets on taking the terminal second MS... :)

Public schools in the U.S. face a lot of challenges, but to say that they don't provide a valuable education to their charges, not to mention a foundation to build on, is a bunch of crap. The teachers are by and large dedicated and caring and if you *want* a decent education, you can get it there.

And as Mirdorr says, there are some fine public schools out there; my second high school made the top 10 list in the state several times as well, and my parents picked our home location when we moved to Texas based on the public school rankings...

Some disturbing trends have developed in primary and secondary education in the US in the last 10-15 years though, hence the reason for the debate (and my interests in how other countries handle education) in this thread.

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

I'm going to have to agree with KMA on this one. The thing that really aggravated me about High School was that I was taking AP classes and getting a slightly lower GPA for it while the dumb kids taking Shop classes paced right through and got A's in the 'required' courses because the standards were so low. Shit, it was almost to the point where handing in a paper got you an A. "Open book/note" quizzes, take home tests, etc...Jesus Christ...might as well hand these kids a diploma at the door and send them right back home.

I wish at the time my useless teachers and guidance counselor would have informed me of the GED option Darus. Instead I sat through 4 years of watching the football team and anyone with the last name of "Vraney" or "Ulness" get A's. Granted it wasn't that hard.

Here's a list of the wonderful things I learned in a public education....

1) So long as you maintain an A average, your Calculus teacher will let you sleep through class. /hugs Mr. LaFluer

2) You can build a computer and mount it (keyboard, mouse, monitor and all) onto a piece of plasterboard (My version of a laptop back in 1999, heh), your friend can use lasers to transmit an audio recording across the room and both of you will still get the same grade as somone who filmed himself driving down a quarter-mile stretch of road in the countryside for his end of year physics project. I wish I was leaving something out, like how he demonstrated stopping distances using different tires of varying conditions on various road surfaces. Nope, he just rev'd his engine, drove his car for roughly 10 seconds, filmed himself doing that, handed it in and got an A.

3) Someone who takes 4 shop* classes, 2 study halls, Senior Phy-ed (badmittion and pong) and English 4 (non-college bound senior English) can recieve the same 'achievement' medal as someone who takes AP Physics, AP Calc, AP Chem, AP Biology, Advanced Composition (college bound English), Journalism (So I needed a knock-off class, screw you), Advanced Economics and a study hall.

*Note, that these were not classes that taught you how to use CAD design or the beginnings of electrical engineering. Our shop classes involved cleaning the shop room and learning how to not cut your hands off when using power tools. Something I learned when I was around 7.

4) Competing in the 4 academic programs (Math Club, Chess Club, Forensics (play acting) and FBLA-Computer Consultant) garndered me 17 gold medals and roughly 6 appearances in the local newspaper. Deets sucked at Football and still got laid.

5) I manage to score a perfect 1000 points out of 1000 in my geometry class, the next closest student getting 827 points or so. Yet though the teacher was highly impressed, he doesn't believe in giving out awards to students for academic achievements because it makes the dumb kids feel dumber. He did however, give out the most athletic awards that year ever to the junior varsity Basketball team he coached...

The list goes on, but I'm tired and was late for work this morning as is. Damn 2 hour drive...

That's why I cheer everytime I see stupid kid fail or get kicked out.

Bah, on the issue of grades and GPA and easy classes compared to a full AP course load... try going to a college prep where its all college prep, honors, or AP level courses and having a 3.5 where your friends from public middle school have a 4.9 at their high school, all of whom you were more (without any intended arrogance) advanced than. And while colleges will give some preferrence towards somebody at my school, it nowhere near evens out to what I could have if I went to my public high school. Top 10 (i.e. top 1%) in a class of 800 at any school looks rediculously better than top 30th percentile in a school of 300. That, believe you me, is frustrating. :(

Mukaz,

thanks for the time it took to defend your name calling. i'll take the fact that your post didn't contain one ounce of refutable fact as a sign of your tacit acceptance of your role and acquiescing.

not everyone that gets a GED is an idiot. unless you got it while in prison.

astounded Nydia, truly. stop making my point for me, it's no fun :(

i've never said there weren't successful public schools. i do believe the investment is a poor one, and will continue to be, as long as the government runs it.

KMA, in 5 pages of posts what have you offered, other than your limited opinion, as proof that public schools are a failure and that private schools are the solution to all our education problems?

Its your argument, you throw out some data and then I'll devote some time to offering differing information. Until that point you're just blowing hot air. As am I :)

The real solution is to make all schools either public or private.

A Hybrid system can not work.

Privatization of the entire school system, without government control, most likely wouldn't work. How many inner city parents would be told "Sorry, you missed a payment, your kid can't come to school" or "sorry, it's not profitable to run a school here. See ya" ?

Privatization does not HAVE to mean the schools would be individual entities.

Everyone could play a flat fee to the the state/district/whatever that would be administering all of the schools for that state/district/whatever.

Thanks Mukaz :)

And I did not post my own somewhat woeful tale of public education in order to 'make KMA's point', but rather to state that, whatever flaws there may be in primary/secondary education in the U.S., they *aren't* generally related to either lack of teacher competence or caring. The 'bad' teachers I had going through public school I can count on one hand, and I have had numerous excellent ones, doing the best that they could with what they had to work with.

The point I was trying to make was that the majority of problems associated with the public school system in the U.S. are structural and sociological. Privatizing the public school system will do nothing to solve these problems, and will, in my opinion, exacerbate already worsening trends (i.e. viewing students as 'product' which can be processed and assessed using SPC charts ;) ). For-profit companies who get into the business of running school districts (like the Edison Project and a few other notorious failures) will be 'under the gun' to show 'results', as taxpayers will be expecting them to perform. Past data from recent years would indicate that these 'private' companies have cost the taxpayers *more* to run than the old public system did and actually produced lower standardized test scores (I'll dig up some data and link it, lest folks think I'm blowing smoke ;) ).

Religious-based private schools aren't all a bed of roses either; in addition to the old 'church and state' issue, the fact is that the quality of education varies *widely* in these schools. Here in Texas, and all over the South, we have hundreds of assorted church-affiliated private schools, mostly tied to evangelical Protestant sects, which for the most part produce dismally educated children who also have had the benefit of havng their history and science curriculum replaced with religious ideology and are ill-prepared for higher education.

Sure, private schools, by and large, post better performance numbers than public schools, for the simple reason *that they get to pick and choose their students*. Any 'private' school solution that is going to be implemented nationwide and has to deal with *all* students, not just the good ones, the rich ones, or the ones who have sacrificing parents, is going to run into the exact same problems that the public schools do. I get the impression that KMA's solution is simply to toss all the 'non-leet' kids to the wolves...

The things that *will* help public education in this country don't necessarily require a lot of money, but they require that that money be spent at the *bottom*, not at the top, and an investment of time and energy resources.

First: 'Students' aren't a monolithic group. They have widely varying aptitudes and learning styles. Attempting to try to treat them identically, even in the early grades, is inane. I remember back in 1969 (yes, I was in first grade :) ) the elementary school that I was in made the effort to assess and track students even in *primary* school, and the work the students was given was adjusted to fit where they were functionally. An indivdual classroom, even in grades 1-3, was divided into (usually three) subgroups and each group given work that was challenging to them. It should be noted that class sizes were in the 18-24 range, i.e. small enough that the teacher could provide individual attention to the students, and for that 18-24 students each teacher also had an aide. It should be noted that this was a small town in north Florida. Decent education doesn't take a lot of money; it takes time and energy resources.

Second: Curricula need to be made more, not less, diverse, if we are going to accomplish the goal of making sure that all students are developed to their potential by public education. Numerous studies have shown the benefits that music, art, and physical education bring to the educational development of children in other, 'academic' disciplines as measured in improved performance (not to mention brain development :) ), yet these classes have been systematically eliminated from the schools in the last fifteen years in an effort to make more time for classwork that is being directly measured by standardized tests.

Third: Standardized tests do not, by and large provide a valid measure of whether a system has produced well educated children, and the power that these tests hold over a school district (over funding, etc) is actually *damaging* to the quality of education, as it encourages schools to 'teach to the test' (sometimes schools spend weeks at a time actually *teaching* the tests, which have been leaked out). Education becomes impoverished, taught in only one way (rote memorization), and becomes meaningless to the student, something to be flushed out after the test is over. Again, time resources are what are needed here.

Fourth: Assessment of students (for academic, not funding, purposes) should be done in primary, middle, and secondary school and students appropriately 'tracked' based on their aptitudes (when they are younger) and aptitudes + interests (when they are older). These assessments should not be limited to standardized tests but should include written essays as well as direct (verbal) assessment. We have a fear of doing this in the U.S. due to issues of possible bias which is largely unfounded. Coursework should not be targeted to the 'average' student, but to the level of the students in that track, even if that means smaller and more classes are necessary.

Finally: Get co-ops, and vocational/technical programs, back in the secondary schools! Adolescents who are uninterested in higher education (or are more interested in hands on work) should be encouraged to participate in such programs instead of taking meaningless academic coursework they hate and dragging down academic quality for those who are trying to get such an education. Where have all the auto shop and wood shop and electrical shop classes gone?

Uggggh, this has run on way too long again :) . In my own case, yeah, *I* probably could have benefitted from private school, but then again I was a '1%er' in both measured intelligence and temperment (148 I.Q. Stanford-Binet, whoop-de-do ;) , INFP on a Meyers-Briggs temperment sorter), which would have made me a difficult fit most places. My sister, who is much more typical on both counts, thrived in the public schools and actually had an easier time adjusting at her state college than I did the first time around despite the fact that the coursework was very challenging to her. Had Prop. 13 not gutted public education in California while I was in junior high school my experience might have been somewhat different as well. It is truly sad to see what has happened there in the last twenty years: the once top-ranked public education system in the US is now at the bottom.

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

(...INFP on a Meyers-Briggs temperment sorter)

This explains sooooooo much. :b

Esbat
INTp/j even split =)

Everyone could play a flat fee to the the state/district/whatever that would be administering all of the schools for that state/district/whatever.

I think you might need to spend more time understanding how schools are funded.

I already pay a flat fee - it's called property tax. I also know that I'm not necessarily willing to pay the higher flat fee that private schools demand without certain, I don't know, service level agreements.

I'm quite sure that inner city parents, whose kids deserve good schools just as suburban kids do, can't afford higher education costs.

I have to wonder if the memorization by rote method was so bad, particularly in the primary school level. That is how I was taught and seem none the worse for it. In fact, it seems to me that the "new methods" that were introduced after I was out of high school pretty much coincide with the decline in the US education system. The basics were no longer emphasized and instead a lot of "self-esteem" building classes and policies were implemented. All that seemed to accomplish in my view was to make a student feel better about themselves being under educated. I don't have data to back all this up, just my personal experience.

There are lots and lots of variables. I agree with your point, but one could point to lots of societal factors - for instance, how about the rising divorce rate?

The thing I always come back to is this: Children who want to succeed, who have parents who will work with them on that goal, will usually succeed no matter the educational system they're in.

I think you might need to spend more time understanding how schools are funded.
I own property and I know how schools are funded.

However, I was suggesting that the same method of payment could be used if the school system was made private.
If, as KMA suggests (he said: "i do believe the investment is a poor one, and will continue to be, as long as the government runs it.") then using the same system of funding and simply changing the administration would solve all the problems, right?

I think not.

I own property and I know how schools are funded.

Then you also understand the federal side of it, correct? And you understand that millions of people who don't have children in the system help subsidize kids in the system, correct?

Private schools are more expensive. Far more expensive. We most likely would not have one corporation running our entire educational system, so we might not realize economies of scale. How is the whole thing paid for?

I agree the rising divorce rate has a significant impact, but divorces were not that uncommon in my youth and have been increasing in other countries as well. They seem to have avoided much of the dumbing down effect which leads me to believe there is a fundamental problem with the methodology being used to teach. Perhaps over reliance on gimmicks and not enough work on reading comprehension.

Then you also understand the federal side of it, correct? And you understand that millions of people who don't have children in the system help subsidize kids in the system, correct?

Yes, I do understand all of that.

My posts above were actualy touching on the very top of your points while making another:
If the government is to blame for most of the woes with the system, then handing the administration over should solve all of those problems.

As I stated above, this is (in my opinion) a pipe dream.

We most likely would not have one corporation running our entire educational system, so we might not realize economies of scale.

My instance of having large corporations or trusts running large segments of the educational system was to prove the point above.
You are correct to an extent: large, standardized systems tend to be more cost effective by eliminating redundancies. They also run the risk of becoming bogged down in red tape and prodedure.

There are no fast and easy answers to the question of "how best do we educate our children". The hardest question to answer is:
Do we tend towards a system that distributes resources to all in an equal manner-
Or do we use a system that rewards those best able to pay?

That question doesn't even deserve serious discussion.

I strongly support public education as a necessity. I also strongly support the right to pursue a private education. There has been a hybrid system in this country for many decades and only in the last twenty years or so has it become problematical.

The question of who should run the public schools is open to debate. The thing that is clear is that the current state of affairs in public schools requires an overhaul. If we don't fix it soon, we are going to have a population that is not equipped to make informed decisions when they are of age to vote. *shudders at the thought of pop stars running for high office*

"Esbat
INTp/j even split =)"

I'm a firm believer in the Meyers-Briggs character and temperment sorter as a valid way to evaluate people's operational preferences, and have administered this test to over 80 people, with some interesting results obtained when sampling specific populations (such as, a community playing a local text RPG, or a class of future Biology teachers :) ).

My ex-husband was an INTJ. Things seemed, by and large, very harmonious for the better part of six years (we're both pros at conflict avoidance ;) , and very cordial people), at which point he became very frustrated and aggressive, threw up his hands and confessed that he hadn't been honest about being able to love me the way I was (being the gentle, but firm, nonconformists that we INFPs tend to be and all :) ). When pressed, he admitted that 'he thought that he could change me' and didn't understand why I didn't operate within the parameters he had designed for me because they were, after all, common sense ;) . There's no point in going into the specific issues because they are both personal and irrelevant; but it underscores the differences between the operational types.

Differences in operational type are a *big* issue in education and must be addressed when trying to design both content and delivery methods of curricula to students. Much of the pent up hatred and frustration of the general population for teachers, and their methods, can be found in a significant disparity between the operational types of teachers (who are usually SJs or NFs) and the general population (mostly SJ/SP). SPs and the rarer NTs rarely get their pedagogical needs met in the educational system, and educational fads usually pendulum between heavily standardized (SJ) and global, self-esteem based (NF).

Regarding the issue of content, I wholeheartedly agree with Gulor that more emphasis needs to be placed on reading comprehension, as well as basic composition skills. Having to actually *think* about what you have read and be able to be able to communicate key information, as well as to be able to synthesize that information to be able to draw a conclusion, is a crucial skill (and essential for the development of critical thinking) which is largely ignored as we try to 'sound bite' our way through education these days.

As far as funding goes, as far as I am concerned, we might as well hang up any pretense of calling ourselves America if we don't make a priority of making a quality education available free to all. An educated populace is essential to the proper functioning of a democracy, and not to loop back too much here, is it fair to penalize the poor simply for being poor? Webb County, where I teach, was the 5th poorest county in the U.S. prior to 2000, when the effects of NAFTA began to be felt here. It's *still* a very poor county (lots of money moves through, but doesn't stay here), but thanks to the much maligned 'Robin Hood' plan we have here in Texas, the junior high school that I judged a science fair at this spring, (which is surrounded by plywood and corrugated tin houses, with dirt roads that turn to rivers of mud when it rains), is clean, safe, and the kids get two meals a day with which to feed their stomachs and minds on. Most of those students (omg!) actually grow up to make something significant of their lives. And my high school Science Fair student won the district and went to the national competition in Cleveland :) ...

Folks who can pay will always have access to a decent education, whether public or private. What is not often grasped is that that providing decent education to all pays for itself many times over, both in the tax revenue generated by an educated populace, and the less-tangible benefits that having an educated population, even at the 'lower' levels of society, provides us, specifically stability...

Regards,
Nydia

there ya go Mukaz. sad. 71 percent. thats a D right? ok maybe a public school C. any other homework you want me to do for you while i'm at it?



www.manhattan-institute.o...aeo.htm#09 (http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_baeo.htm#09)



i thought their take on the GED statistics was pretty funny, but only because i know they will get a reaction out of some people.


bottom line. the government spends 6k per student per year to educate them in a manner THEY see fit. private schools / charter schools provide a much better education for about the same amount of money. the governments approach to education is pathetic and people don't have a choice. people are forced to accept the educational policies of each new president. give people the option, regardless of who the lowest common denominator decides should run this fascist/socialist country at any given time, to educate their children with the information they choose to be important.

yes private school is an option today, but you still require me to pay for the public system regardless of where my child goes to school. keep the property taxes and give me the option to spend the money allocated for the education of my child/children, and even to add to it from my own pocket, with whatever school i think will best prepare my child for their future. the problem with that is...nobody will send their child to public school given the options outlined above. thats not a bad thing btw. ok maybe for some of the people accustomed to sucking off the public tit its a problem. the ones equipped to adapt and compete, will do just that. the ones that aren't, were probably the problem to begin with.

That question doesn't even deserve serious discussion.

Doesn't it? The fact you dismissed it so matter of factly shows you might not have given it due thought.

While each of us, as an individual, might be able to make a very fast choice based on our own, personal political views, trying to establish that system will be difficult.

Those that HAVE money number less that those without money. In a straight vote, they'd lose. Unless, of course, they used their money and resources to swing the legislation. Which way is of the greatest benefit to our society?

What's the issue here? You can pay your property taxes in Northbrook, IL (New Trier schools) as well as you can pay them on Chicago's south side (gangs and metal detectors) and your federal subsidy moves with you. If your school system is not meeting the educational needs of your children, what are you doing about it? Why are you living there?

and didn't understand why I didn't operate within the parameters he had designed for me because they were, after all, common sense

The advantage of having the P/J split is I realized (after one failed marriage) that the best thing to do was to find a mate that had flaws that were acceptable in terms of the overall life plan.

Anyhow, there used to be an online version of the test (I found it after I was tested myself, which was unfortunate, or I would have been able to manipulate my results) but it was taken down for legal reasons.

Anyone know how to get a copy of this? Nydia?

Mir,

just to make it easier on me when you ask me questions and expect answers that mean something to you..ie you can relate to them..do you own a home? if you do own a home, how much is it worth? where did you get your education? how do you support yourself today?

Those that HAVE money number less that those without money. In a straight vote, they'd lose. Unless, of course, they used their money and resources to swing the legislation. Which way is of the greatest benefit to our society?

i understand your point and its totally valid. my ideal scenario is a system where people are afforded the option to spend their money on education the way they see fit, not the way the government sees fit. the government decides for you, people that go to public school directly and also indirectly people forced to pay for it, what is and isn't important for you to learn. they purchase that education using tax dollars. the option to purchase your childs education with monies the government now controls is perfectly feasible. money comes into play when the people choose not to send their children to public schools because now they can choose what school to send their kids to. the people opposed to this have an obvious vested interest in keeping the status quo and it has much less to do with concern for our nations kids and their education as it does with perpetuating a social program and agenda.

If your school system is not meeting the educational needs of your children, what are you doing about it? Why are you living there?

Indeed. Everyone should move to the areas where the GOOD schools are. Why hasn't anyone thought of that before?

We'll just standardize housing and income levels. That way, everyone COULD live in whatever area they wanted, since they'd be all the same.

Right?

Inequality is built into the system. Some like it that way, others want the playing field to be level.

The problem comes from the kids who do not want to be in the classrooms. From 6th to 12th grade, I'd say maybe ten percent of my teachers were incompetent educators (see my thread awhile back about the history teacher claiming that Bismarck led Germany in WWI) - not too bad of a statistic overall. But in high school, nearly half of the other teachers were incapable of teaching not because of a lack of knowledge or skills, but because they cannot keep a cluster of bored, disruptive assholes in that rear corner under control. These disruptions ranged from perpetual screaming to blasting rap on their boomboxes to smoking marijuana in class.

My suggestion: make high school optional. Any citizen who turns eighteen after a couple of years of the passing of this legislation who does not obtain a high school education (and isn't working on finishing it) is ineligible to vote (but retains all other privileges). Frankly, I think education should be a prerequisite for voting at all, but that would probably be abused and contradict some ex post facto clause in previous legislation.

Benefits: Class sizes will shrink by a fair margin (10% or so, give or take). Secondary education will improve after some time.

Disadvantages: an immediate moderate increase in crime rate. It is reasonable to assume that a good chunk of criminals comes from this group, and would start committing crimes a few years sooner on account of a lack of forced babysitting. This is a generalized assumption, I know, I know. How could I be so insensitive? :p

Ideas?

PS: I'm willing to bet that someone will call me a nazi after reading this. If you do so, expect to wait a couple of days for a rebuttal. Midterm prep is "teh suck."

Dear Esbat:

I don't have a file copy of the full Meyers-Briggs test, but I do have the shorter Kersey-Bates version (sixty questions if I remember correctly) that I can send to you, along with the scoring sheet. Just poke me in game with your email address, or I can shoot it to Thormir, as I believe that I still have his address somewhere :) .

As far as your hypothesis that 'happiness in mating depends on finding someone who has flaws that you can live with', I suppose this is in some sense quite true. My partner is an ENTP, and we've coexisted quite happily for nine years now. We have differing religious, political, and social opinions and orientations (things my ex and I all shared much more closely but were miserable anyway), but have stimulating and fun conversations about these and agree to disagree most of the time. We respect and love each other for who we are and are able to appreciate our differences as well as our similarities. The house... should probably be condemned (two strong Ps don't lead to floors you can eat off of, even if one is a microbiologist ;) ), but other than that we're as happy as, well, pigs in slop ;) ...

Regards,
Nydia

I like the way this thread keeps changing, and I still don't know why it was even started.

Willgatus, I've said the exact same thing, even if half jokingly. I think there should be a test of some sort for voting (assuming we hold education as a community value, which is generally accepted in the US), and High School makes a good test. If ya can't pass high school, then what's to say you have the judgment to vote? Now, work out how to do that without hurting minorities or communities without good access to education, and you're set.

On the issue of reform, I like a lot of what Nydia had to say, but I believe much of the issue lies in funding for schools and how schools handling money. IF education really is a community value, then we need to treat it as such. Here's what I'd suggest:

1. Start pooling ALL property taxes and other education-based spending into statewide pools, and distribute equally. There's plenty of research done to show the difference in educational level between well funded schools and underfunded schools. This would also allow schools to redraw boundaries to make sense, rather than the gerrymandered districts we have now. Not everyone can afford to move, not everyone WANTS to move, this solves that problem real neat.

2. Establish, at the state level, salary for employees - rather than at the district level. Currently there are WAY too many administrators in some districts, and many of them are overpaid compared to other employees. When Arizona had it's major budget crisis last year and all the cuts for educational programs came out, not once did I see a pay cut for administrators. While we're on it, reform the way school boards work. You know there are elected school boards in places with no schools?

3. Change rules for donations to schools. Right now, at least in Arizona, donations are an iffy thing at best, because of the way the money has to be spent. I have several thousand dollars in a tax-credit account donated to my department, but the money cannot be spent to fix the leak in the ceiling over my desk.

4. Finalize the way money is spent between private schools and public schools - currently in the works. Private school vouchers essentially mean that taxpayers in every district can end up paying for someone's private school. In some areas the government is, essentially, supporting private schools.

5. Tighten up qualifications for teaching - also in the works, at least in Arizona. Previously if you had a teaching certificate in ONE subject you could still be assigned another subject, hence many of the bad teachers out there.

6. Invest more money in upgrading/rebuilding schools and school materials. At the last school I worked at the students knew exactly where they stood in the eyes of the community as they punched away on old Apple computers in a falling down building, with text books handed down from a richer school.

7. THE BIG ONE - start listening to what research is saying about education. We're still doing early morning tests, when we know that's a bad time to test. We still run crunched classes when we know students don't learn as well that way. We still have teachers who's biggest assignment is "read the chapter, and answer the questions at the end" - there is NO research to support that as a valid method. Reinforce the arts programs, plenty of brain development research to support that. Start with second language study at a young age, etc. Drop standardized tests as the means for assessment, there's plenty of evidence to show that doesn't work. Currently because of the size of the educational bureaucracy and lack of funding it's entirely up to the classroom teacher to regulate how the students learn. Hence, your good teachers and your bad teachers.

There's a start for you.

Folks who can pay will always have access to a decent education, whether public or private. What is not often grasped is that that providing decent education to all pays for itself many times over, both in the tax revenue generated by an educated populace, and the less-tangible benefits that having an educated population, even at the 'lower' levels of society, provides us, specifically stability...That's probably the most important thing said so far. Those who want to cut off spending or, like the local rich folks did here, form communities that don't pay educational taxes, are turning their back on the same system that produced them. Stopping funding or jumping ship to private schools doesn't solve the problem, and the (sic) poorly educated masses are never going away. Building up the quality of the public schools keeps education as a community resource and common value.


-Kanyli (the INFP)

"Education is not a commodity. Education is a social relationship." - Eric Margolis

Nydia, could you please send me a copy of the same test to paladud@hotmail.com? I'm pretty curious as to what I am.

KMA

So 71% of students graduate from public high school. What percentage of students graduate from private high schools? Without comparative data you can't call public schools a failure unless you take the position that even one dropout is complete failure of the school in question which seems a bit extreme to me.

I know for a fact that the graduation rate of private schools is less than 100% but without some sort of comparative number it could be argued ( not that I am ) that public high schools have a better than two thirds success rate.

Here's some data for you to chew on:

gseweb.harvard.edu/~ncsal...port16.pdf (http://gseweb.harvard.edu/~ncsall/research/report16.pdf) An article using GED test results to point out some of the flaws of standardized testing. It doesn't speak to differences between private and public education.

www.census.gov/population...ps0043.pdf (http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0043/twps0043.pdf) An article offering , among other things, evidence that a shift in ethnicity of the overall population has had an effect on graduation rates.

nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/ (http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/) This is a link to one of the primary culprits in devising and gathering data using standardized test scores. Their focus is primarily on public schools and they have limited comparative data between public and private education data.

print.ditd.org/floater=269.html (http://print.ditd.org/floater=269.html) An article on underachieving gifted students. Some of whom will drop out of school despite being knowledgable and fuctional productive members of society.

nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/2002030.pdf (http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/2002030.pdf) This link is a report offering data projecting graduation numbers out to 2012. Its interesting to note that from 2006 - 2012 the total number of high school graduates is expected to decrease but very little is said about the fact that there is a shrinking number of young people in America. One might use this data as evidence of school failure without that tidbit of knowledge.

There is a terribly large amount of data on education in America. Much of it is conflicting or difficult to sift through. I'm not trying to offer a definitive answer to how to solve our education difficulties in America. I am trying to point out that there are many more factors involved in the solution than a simple "Abolish public education and send em all to private school".

just to make it easier on me when you ask me questions and expect answers that mean something to you..ie you can relate to them..do you own a home? if you do own a home, how much is it worth? where did you get your education? how do you support yourself today?

I could, if those questions were relevant to anything.


Those that HAVE money number less that those without money.

You're creating a straw man, and your basic premise isn't true. THe middle class has money. They're the majority of the population. Those below (or even slightly above) the poverty line don't have money. They're not the majority.


i understand your point and its totally valid. my ideal scenario is a system where people are afforded the option to spend their money on education the way they see fit,

Great idea. Unfortunately, the people who don't have money then by definition can't buy an education.

My point is this (and of course, who knows what the original point of this thread is). Poor kids somewhere go to school on my dime, and I don't mind that one bit. I think that's tax money well spent.

Privatize the system, pull control away from the government, and you pull control away from the entity that collects the money. I'll most likely be one of the people asking that every cent of my money stay within my school district. Perhaps I'd change my mind - but I probably wouldn't be the only person thinking that way.

I could, if those questions were relevant to anything.


it's completely relevant. someone living with mommy and daddy telling me to move to a neighborhood above and beyond my standard of living in order to take advantage of the money i pay in taxes to fund a collapsing education system, makes me laugh. if that isn't the case then i'll just have to find a better way to convince you that making me do anything to get whats best for me for the money i pay, is socialism.

the poor people spend money on education every year. what are you talking about? they don't spend THEIR money but they sure as hell spend mine. i'm not offering them any more than what they get already. they can spend their allocated funds on the same crappy public education they have been spending it on. its their choice. don't limit my choice when it comes time for me to spend that same allocated portion on a different school though. understand?

i'm not trying to advocate denying poor people an education. they can have any education they can afford with the tax dollars already paid on their behalf. what i am advocating is to allow every other citizen that pays into the system to have the same access to the same money and have a choice on where to spend it.

--Privatize the system, pull control away from the government, and you pull control away from the entity that collects the money.--

i'm confused, whats your point?


Mukaz,

the major source of information on education statistics is the government, and the only thing they seem concerned with are the numbers relating to their system. it seems to be popular opinion, even from the socialists on this board, that private school / charter school graduation rates are higher. i proved, to my standard, that the education received at public schools is terrible and in need of serious change. the average is 71 percent. did you look at all the schools? some were as low as 28 percent. thats 1 in 4. very sad indeed. i'd be willing to bet you money that there aren't ANY private schools open today that turn out that kind of graduation rate.

You're creating a straw man, and your basic premise isn't true. THe middle class has money.

Perhaps I should clarify: Those that have the spare change to afford private schools without changing their lifestyle (the upper 20% of the income bracket or so to use an arbitrary figure) are less numerous than the rest of the people.

For example:
I'm middle class, and I don't have any damn money. I might have assets, and I might MAKE a good wage, but my liquid assets are not very large.

I could not, for example, afford to send one or more children to private school unless I got a second job or otherwise changed my lifestyle to a large degree.

Could I send a child to private school if I REALLY wanted to? Yes. Would it be as easy for me to do this? No. Is it far easier to send them to public school, take an active role in their life and try to guide them into good life habits rather than place the burded on someone else? Yes.

I think we are starting to blow hot air at this point in time, since I agree 100% with your statement:
My point is this (and of course, who knows what the original point of this thread is). Poor kids somewhere go to school on my dime, and I don't mind that one bit. I think that's tax money well spent

KMA

the major source of information on education statistics is the government, and the only thing they seem concerned with are the numbers relating to their system.

They may be the major source of information but they aren't the only source. Universities conduct studies of their own. Graduate students do research papers. The information is available if you're willing to look into both sides of the issue.

it seems to be popular opinion, even from the socialists on this board, that private school / charter school graduation rates are higher.

Popular opinion is a poor foundation to base any argument on by itself. Popular opinion can be wrong or easily swayed by the simplest arguments if they seem to reinforce what people already want to believe. Without comparative information people cannot make an informed decision.

i proved, to my standard, that the education received at public schools is terrible and in need of serious change.

I'm happy that a single bit of information (the report you linked) is sufficient to prove a point to your standard. From where I sit all it does is demonstrate my previous point. You have been swayed by data that supports what you already want to believe.

the average is 71 percent. did you look at all the schools? some were as low as 28 percent. thats 1 in 4. very sad indeed. i'd be willing to bet you money that there aren't ANY private schools open today that turn out that kind of graduation rate.

So what you're saying is that even with an average 71% success rate (assuming here that a student graduating is the only measure of success) the entire public education system deserves to be scrapped rather than addressing the needs of the 29% that aren't successful with the system we have currently?

Educating our children takes more than a classroom. It takes parents who want to be involved. That is something lacking in our society today in my opinion. It takes teachers who want to teach and are appreciated for the role they have in our children's development. It requires that we stop using standardized tests as a means to and end and instead use them simply as one means among many of guaging a child's development. And yes, it might also mean implementing a program that privatizes education. But none of those things is the solution by itself.

/apologies for the hijack

Esbat:

Your email address bounced. Of course, I could have written it down incorrectly while taking it down mid fight, or rendered it illegible by later using the piece of paper as a coaster... ;)
In any case, have Mukaz shoot it to me if you aren't going to be online? Willgatus, the temperment sorter should be hitting your box shortly...

Regards,
Nydia

Mukaz,

the major source of information on education statistics is the government, and the only thing they seem concerned with are the numbers relating to their system. it seems to be popular opinion, even from the socialists on this board, that private school / charter school graduation rates are higher. i proved, to my standard, that the education received at public schools is terrible and in need of serious change. the average is 71 percent. did you look at all the schools? some were as low as 28 percent. thats 1 in 4. very sad indeed. i'd be willing to bet you money that there aren't ANY private schools open today that turn out that kind of graduation rate.

You need to follow the logic here. A child in private school will not drop out. They will got to public school because their parents will not pay for a failing child. The private school would not want him on the rolls because the child will bring down the standards of the school. The "drop out rate" in private schools can't be measured because of the safety net of the public schools. Since the child never left education it will not count against the private school. the possibly if the same child were in public school would just dropped out. So it impossible to get a real number for drop our rate of private schools.

In any case, have Mukaz shoot it to me if you aren't going to be online

Ugh... that would involve Mukaz remembering what it is.

what part did you mess up?

it will be @nc.rr.com

Or you could just hop over to the Prism boards (http://prism.r3n3gad3.com/modules.php?name=Forums) and shoot me a PM.

Just cause I dont use it doesn't mean I dont remember it :(