Who's the better?

Gandalf for sure. dual classed fighter/mage FTW.

While I liked the roles all three played in their own realms, I have to vote Gandalf for his unceasing efforts at risk of his own life to assist and save the peoples of Middle earth. He allowed that events would unfold, and trusted that people would make the right choices needed, and gave what help and guidance he could.

Merlin sometimes allowed his ego and own ambition to get in the way, wanting to take credit as the mentor and guide who shaped Arthur's kingdom.

Dumbledore, prior to becoming a professor at Hogwarts, also was consumed with his own ambition and ego. He did indeed become a great wizard, but he always seemed to be engaged in some manipulation of events.

per the context, Dumbledore was very advanced wizard, who even invented some spells. Gandalf, at the beginnings of the books wasnt even the head of his order. Lastly, Merlin there isnt much context to which to compare in canon. Morgana would be the only one and per legend she slipped things passed merlin multiple times.

Ultimately i have to go with Dumbledore

I must admit that I find it somewhat troubling that you were thinking of these three men while in the shower, tho'. :eek:

Shower thoughts are weird. My last major shower thought was proving gravity was faster than light. I can totally see the line of inquiring forming in between shampooing your hair and soaping up the wash rag .... wait, no, this does in fact make Halo gay.

Shower thoughts are weird. My last major shower thought was proving gravity was faster than light....

Gravity has no speed; and therefore is not faster than anything ;)

Everything has to have speed otherwise it violates multiple points on every physics model including, but not limited to, general relativity. If gravity had no speed it could affects things a-causally, which we have never seen it do.

Everything has to have speed otherwise it violates multiple points on every physics model including, but not limited to, general relativity. If gravity had no speed it could affects things a-causally, which we have never seen it do.


Gravity's affect on surrounding objects and energy are directly proportional to many things, some which include mass of the body which is exerting its gravitational pull and the relative distance to said body.

In order for you to state that gravity has a speed, its force would need to be constant. In which case, gravity is not. For instance the speed of light is 1,079,252,849 km/h. Gravity does not "travel" - its force is exerted upon nearbye bodies and thus its power can be observed, however to say it has "speed" is an invalid statement.

How far does gravity travel per second or per hour? That's easy - it doesn't

:spade

Speed is an overloaded term, so let's use propagation instead.

Heat equally has no "speed" but if you drop a hot object in a tub of water the water is not heated at a uniform rate, the energy is propagated at a calculable rate on a number of factors. There is no requirement that the force of any field has to be constant for it to have a rate of propagation. How do you deal with electromagnetic fields in that model? The force of the field is variable with current strength, distance from the center, and time.

What you're talking about, that gravity does not travel, is a mid-level physics cheat because if you apply the rules that every other force in the universe obeys to gravity, it breaks them. In order to have a causal universe (object A is relatively inert until operated on by force B) there must be some method of conveyance of a change in a gravitational field onto the objects in it. If gravity is instantaneous, why is it the ONLY instantaneous force? If the force in the field is instantaneous, it is also implicitly not regenerative, why is it the ONLY non-regenerative field?

There have been some tests done trying to find the upper bound on the speed of gravity by comparing movement in the local solar system to the movement of binary pulsars. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head but they were estimating the propagation of gravitational fields somewhere in the magnitude of c * 10^10 .

There have been some tests done trying to find the upper bound on the speed of gravity by comparing movement in the local solar system to the movement of binary pulsars. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head but they were estimating the propagation of gravitational fields somewhere in the magnitude of c * 10^10 .

So, you are saying Merlin?

No, Gandalf still owns Merlin.

Speed is an overloaded term, so let's use propagation instead.

Heat equally has no "speed" but if you drop a hot object in a tub of water the water is not heated at a uniform rate, the energy is propagated at a calculable rate on a number of factors.

...


Thats a much better term, and analogy.

Carry on~ :spade

Merlin because he was more likely the idea on which the other two were created. Also Merlin may have existed as a real man and not just some creation of an author.

I thought gravitational waves propagated at the same rate as light, a result that followed from general relativity?

Or, at least, that's the expectation. Otherwise it would allow for faster-than-light communication.

fire bad tree pretty...

Gandalf fought and beat a Balrog....... what else do you need to know?

I thought gravitational waves propagated at the same rate as light, a result that followed from general relativity?

Try modeling an orbital system based on that and watch what happens. It can't possibly be true based on observed orbits. If we were to be affected by gravity of where the sun was ~8 light minutes ago versus closer to now, our orbit would be very different and suffer elliptical abberations. Every model for gravitational systems assume instantaneous propagations in changes to a gravity field, which is psychics for "shit man, we're not sure how this works."

Gandalf? He fought the Balrog with a sword more than with magic. Dumbledore's pet phoenix would have eaten the Balrog while Dumbledore was sipping tea he summoned out of his hat and swapping Chocolate Frog cards with his friends.

'fire bad tree pretty...'

- WARNING!!! Buffy reference - nice one Grey! :P

Could we please cease to speak of my sexual choices? If I choose to think about three elderly men with pointy hats while rubbing my self in the shower and squeezing my rubber ducky, well that's entirely up to me, isn't it??

My personal preference has to be Gandalf. Before his human form he was, after all, a Maiar, and they were pretty much god-like. Taking on a Balrog? Maybe just as tough as Voldemort. Returning to life and rallying the armies of man? Just as cool as anything Merlin achieved.

Runner up would have to be Dumbledore. He's just so cool, 'n stuff.

Try modeling an orbital system based on that and watch what happens. It can't possibly be true based on observed orbits. If we were to be affected by gravity of where the sun was ~8 light minutes ago versus closer to now, our orbit would be very different and suffer elliptical abberations. Every model for gravitational systems assume instantaneous propagations in changes to a gravity field, which is psychics for "shit man, we're not sure how this works."
Every physics model relies on a lot of approximations. Haven't you heard the joke about a physicist approximating a cow as a sphere?

If these calculations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave#Power_radiated_by_the_Earth-Sun_system) are correct--and it has been too long since I have studied astrophysics to really confirm it--then the gravitational waves from the Earth-Sun system amount to 313 watts, which is a negligible amount of power when discussing orbital mechanics.

I'm not sure instantaneous propagation of any kind of wave even makes sense--that seems to contradict the definition of a wave.

Dumbledore of course!

What did Gandalf really achieves huh? Being there at the right time, befriending a fast horse and... fireworks? Gimme a break.

Dumbledore on the other hand, got into the field by himself, sort the shit and only relay "a bit" on others. And at least the big villain was AFRAID of him, can you say the same about Gandalf?

Merlin is off game, he got owned by a woman, that's game over in my book of manly wizards.

Right, instantaneous propagation does seem contradictory, which is why it's so funny that people have a base assumption that gravity is somehow instantaneous. However the orbital systems I'm referring to don't have approximate differences even on the scale of the cow being spherical (yes, "Now, assume for a moment a spherical cow for our fluid dynamics question ... "), if you try to run any sort of orbit calculations with a light-speed lag of the gravity positions of objects in it for any non-trivial distance (the earth/moon system by itself isn't too too horrible but the sun/earth/moon/jupiter one shows it more clearly) you end up with non-elliptical orbits that are arguably not even stable -- even at the relatively small fraction of C that the earth moves relative to the sun, combined with the distance moved by the sun itself during the ~8 minute time window if gravity was in fact propagating at light speed we'd basically never hit our known orbit.

But how much is the sun moving relative to the center of mass of the solar system? It can't be much, since the sun is by far the dominant object.

can we split the physics thread :p its messing up my tongue in cheek argument over wizards

Gandalf was the man. He pwned a Balroc, came back from the dead, led the forces of Middle Earth against Sauron's army, and issued in the Reign of Man. Anyone that can wield Magic, and a Sword at the same time has my vote.
Dumbledore is a close second in my mind. Resourceful, and talented, he only pales to Gandalf in the fighting area.
Merlin is Old Skool. Not much on the magic thing (he was a half Incibus), and not much of a fighter. More manipulative than anything else.

"oh you have it under the impression i am going to go willingly"

-Dumbledore to the Ministry of Magic.

Nuff said

Gandalf, simply because Middle Earth is better than Harry Potter.

Best thread on the board at this moment. I especially enjoyed the sidebar convo about gravity and light. We should have more shower threads, men naked in showers thinking about wizards and gravity is about the sexiest thing ever.

Oh I voted for Gandalf for all previous stated reasons.

Gandalf is totally ub3r, but my one complaint about him is his constant restraint to using his leetness to own his enemies. Some points of the LotR movies made him seem just weak (not judging character here, Gandalf would hands-down win that, I speak of just plain ownage or at least willingness to exercise it).

Merlin (from what I remember) loved to use his bag-o-tricks. And Dumbledore is a homo (literally).

Gandalf was a ring-bearer, and probably had a good idea of the potential for getting too caught up in the use of power. This could explain his reticence to kick the shit out of enemies, if a mere bitch-slap would do.

That was always the appeal for me - about Gandalf. Restraint always seemed somewhat wise, as though he didn't *need* to float things in the air to say "hey lookey, I can make magic!"

His power was rather subtle, he seemed very much a man of destiny and willpower, not so much the kind of guy that would change things just to make them right.

He could have zapped Wormtounge to pieces, but he did nothing and what happened? He ran off and killed Saraman.

Gandalf knew when to act and when to let things play out.
His insight to Frodo about Gollum/Smeagol's role in the destruction of the Ring, was the best example of this.
However when he did act, it was decisively, and usually with maximum effect, his fight with Sarumon at Isengard being the exception.

Gandalf got monkeystomped by Sarumon he cant be #1. Gandalf was a better oratator than he was a wizard anyway!

Gandalf got monkeystomped by Sarumon he cant be #1. Gandalf was a better oratator than he was a wizard anyway!


The question, of course, was who is the better wizard; not the greatest, not the most powerful, but THE BETTER! Being the better encompasses much more than the mere ability to use magic.

It must be noted though that in the fight with Sarruman (sp), Gandalf was of the "gray" order and Sarruman was still more or less of the "white" order.

The question, of course, was who is the better wizard; not the greatest, not the most powerful, but THE BETTER! Being the better encompasses much more than the mere ability to use magic.


by same logic then Dumbledore would be the better wizard :P He out crafted Voldemort, he out witted the ministry, and he made me look like a fanboy IRL and he is a fictional character...clear winner.

Gandalf is totally ub3r, but my one complaint about him is his constant restraint to using his leetness to own his enemies. Some points of the LotR movies made him seem just weak (not judging character here, Gandalf would hands-down win that, I speak of just plain ownage or at least willingness to exercise it).

Merlin (from what I remember) loved to use his bag-o-tricks. And Dumbledore is a homo (literally).

It takes a stronger person to have power and not use it needlessly than it does to have a person to use their power without thinking of the recourse.

Sound familiar?

With great power....

It must be noted though that in the fight with Sarruman (sp), Gandalf was of the "gray" order and Sarruman was still more or less of the "white" order.

Cados hit it on the head.... Gandalf the 'white' was the most awesome

Gandalf the Gray was a weed-smokin, pyromaniac that hung out with Hobbits.
Gandalf the White was a dual weapon wielding, magic-user, general of the armies of Man who would have used his staff to scrape off the best part of Saruman from his boots, has they gone toe to toe....

Ya'll wanna get all Technical they are alot more good wizards out there than those listed what about Raistlin Majere? or that Albert fellow from that other Wiess-Hickman series. can't really list Fizban cause he's a god really. jury's still out on good ol' Tom Bombadill.

Ya'll wanna get all Technical they are alot more good wizards out there than those listed what about Raistlin Majere? or that Albert fellow from that other Wiess-Hickman series. can't really list Fizban cause he's a god really. jury's still out on good ol' Tom Bombadill.


Technical - shmechnical....Halo listed the three worth discussion.

Nuff said!

:D

Nah, just the more well known ones but velvet does make good points about Raistlin and Fizban :p Anyone with hour glasses for irsis have a plus mark in my book!

Tom Bombadil... we may never really know about him, other than that he represented innocent nature.

I've got a selection of Tom Bombadil poems by Tolkien, but they don't give any clue whatsoever.

I always considered Tom Bombadil to be an entity akin to the Ents; a steward of nature if you will.

Raistlin > All if you are only counting power, and not wisdom.
The man challenged a Goddess in Her own Realm, and would have had the power to destroy Her, had he not been shown the error of his ways by his brother.

Fizban was an Avatar, and not subject to the rules of other wizards. Still it was shown, Raistlin would have pwned Him as well.

If I had to chose, I'd say in a show of sheer power, Raist would defeat Gandalf, but Gandalf would have had the wisdom to show Raistlin why it was wrong to do so, and the fight wouldn't even have begun.

Great discussion, BTW!

I think Bombadil's far more than that. Indeed at an earlier Council at Rivendell Gandalf and Elron seriously debated with the idea of giving the Ring to Tom.

As far fetched as it is, I always thought he was a Maiar, like Gandalf, a sort of demi-god. Perhaps even more than that.

Either way, I always liked that Tolkien never explained him too much. Made him far more myserious and, well, speculation can be fun.

Definitely a great discussion and the idea could spawn many other similar things like greatest superhero, greatest villian, biggest geek on the board.... ya know for discussion purposes.

Definitely a great discussion and the idea could spawn many other similar things like greatest superhero, greatest villian, biggest geek on the board.... ya know for discussion purposes.


Again, the idea of Halo in his shower thinking of the "biggest" anything is somewhat disturbing. :rolleyes:

How do you think I got the idea in the first place?

Eh, now I need a shower......:eek:

Are you...coming on to me?

hawt!
So Halo, what else you think about while soaping up? ;)

My rubber ducky.

We call that something else here in the States....

You Brits have all sorts of odd names for your body parts....

Rincewind owns them all in terms of linear speed.

Besides, how can you not like a wizard with a spell in his head so powerful he can't even perform any magic?

Yeah Rincewind, who managed, when he finally casted his first spells, to mispell them!

Ooohhh, owned.