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View Full Version : Historical Thread Reborn! - Greatest Generals


Haloface
05-12-2006, 05:52 AM
I know, I know. It's so passe to post about something other than immigration and American political parties lately, but I thought I'd be 'risky', or something, and wake up the left side of our brains (come on, I know you got 'em).

Therefore I ask who, in your opinion, was the greatest General of the Ancient World?

Rameses III - Ok, ok, token Egyptian general. Megiddo and Kadesh read like over-blown skirmishes. But that's not to deny Rameses' power and his success in expanding in to Upper Palestine. If he wasn't the best general, he was a master of propoganda.

Agamemnon - Leaning toward the mythical, right. But who are we to dispute Homer? Besides his supposed unifying of the Greeks, he may well have successfully launched the largest pre-Persian naval and army expedition ever. And, as the sack of Troy suggests, it went well.

Cyrus the Great - Created the first global superpower out of a Mede backwater, destroyed the Lydian empire, crushed Babylon, took on the Egyptians. Besides, his name is just really cool.

Themistocles - Ok, he may have been more a stateseman than a general, but those who know their Persian Wars, will not beable to deny the man's efforts in saving Greece from Eastern domination, both at Marathon and Salamis (besides, hero's in the Persian Wars are sadly lacking).

Alcibiades/Lysander - Both equally masterful on land and at sea, but Lysander was intelligent enough to be ambitious in a cunning way, not in an outright stupid way. Is being diplomatic a factor in a good general? I think so. Though I wonder, had Athens had Persian support, would Alcibiades been able to shine as brightly as Lysander?

Alexander the Great - Now we're talkin. Took 40, 000 men, liberated Asia Minor and completely dismembered the Persian Empire. Son of a God, shagged the King of King's sister, smacked the Indian's around, and had the thigh's of a... ok, laying the admiration on a bit. Sorry.

Hannibal - Oohh yeah. Who's ya daddy? Picked a fight with the pre-dominant power in the Med, marched an army of men and elephants through Gaul and over the Alps, thrashed the Romans for a good twelve years, with the crushing destruction of an entire Roman army of about 45, 000 men, death in numbers not seen again until modern times. To quote his good mate, "you know how to gain a victory, but not how to use one." Should he have marched on Rome? Probably not.

Caeser - I wanted to throw Scipio or Marius in here for their infamous roles in the defeat of Hannibal and the Celts, but I decided to skip straight to Caeser. Division between the Gallic tribes may have been on his side more than his tactical genius during the Gallic Wars, as it would be during his expedition to Briton, but his unending ability to exploit such circumstances, and his rapid and unflinching advance across the Rubicon and over to Greece to defeat Pompey and the Republic were brilliantly effective. His ability to sow loyalty among his men make him a top choice.

Pompey the Great - "All I need is to stamp my foot, and legions will spring from the earth." What was his most famous victory? Sweeping Cicilian and Cretean pirates from the seas or conquering the East for Rome? During his early twenties he raised a private army to assist Sulla's dictatorship, and from then until his over-weight fourties and defeat at the hands of Caeser, Pompey had a natural genius of command.

Trajan - I skipped the brilliantly capable Corbulo and Germanicus simply because their victories were never as lasting as the next candidate. What's remarkable about Trajan is that, since Augustus, hardly any new territory was added to the Empire, which seems strange as Rome was at the heights of its power during the Pax Romana. The fact was, no Emporer could let a general gain more prestige and fame than themselves, so conquering lands was left to the emporers, who were far more interested in sending armies to collect sea-shells, or playing fiddles and starting fires. But not so with Trajan. His gigantic and amazingly planned conquests of Dacia and Mesopotamia, and his repeated sack of the Parthian capital at Ctesiphon were, sadly, never to be repeated after Trajan's death (both new provinces were very quickly abandoned, infact). Truly the last conqueror.

Belisarius - Skipping several hundred years and some of the more able Barbarian Invasion generals, and perhaps jumping outside the Ancient World a little bit, Belisarius comes last on our chronological list. When the Western Empire was lost to the Germans and Slavs, Justinian decided on the re-conquest of the Roman World State. The man to do this was to be the little known general Belisarius. He kept the Persians at bay on the Eastern Front and even singed the King of King's beard. He launched an invasion of North Africa, recaptured the province and brought the Vandaal King and his treasury back to Constantinople, and in his wake was the King in chains, a sight not seen in the Roman World since the Republic (and a triumph to go with it). His biggest glory, however, came in Italy. Recapturing Sicily, Belisarius swept up in to Italy, re-captured Rome from the Goths and survived a year long siege, after which he annexed the entire penninsula. Another king in chains to Constantinople, another treasury added to Justinian's chest. Belisarius, the last of a kind.

Anterak
05-12-2006, 07:19 AM
Gengis Khan!

Sixee
05-12-2006, 08:39 AM
Gengis Khan!

I have to Agree. The man was Ruthless, inventive, and a terror to all, all while riding a horse.

Rover
05-12-2006, 08:41 AM
Just glad to see that you didn't jump ahead even more and say Montgomery.

Bylimet Spiritwalker
05-12-2006, 08:49 AM
I am curious about the lack of Chinese representation on that list. While there are obviously some great leaders on that list, can they all take credit as being great generals, or did some have great generals advising them?

Bise
05-12-2006, 08:58 AM
was Sun Tzu a general?

Anterak
05-12-2006, 09:16 AM
War advisor or something, but I guess he could fit as general if we are talking about "leading armies".

Osgiliath666
05-12-2006, 09:51 AM
Either Halo re-found his encyclopedias or you are doing his homework for him. Good to see ya again Halo.

Haloface
05-12-2006, 09:58 AM
Would you call the Great Khan ancient? Belisarius was pushing the time limit a bit. I was planning to do a medieval and modern thread at a later point.

The lack of Oriental representation is simply due to a lack of Oriental knowledge. Please, honestly, add any that you feel justify a mention.
Oh, all my 'home-work' is done (my PhD doesn't start for a while, muaha). Sadly, this is my idea of fun.

Haloface
05-12-2006, 09:59 AM
'While there are obviously some great leaders on that list, can they all take credit as being great generals, or did some have great generals advising them?'

- Well, I tried to avoid such things. Which is why I went for Belisarius and not Justinian, or Alcibiades and not Pericles. I admit, I may have fell in to that trap with Rameses III, but the lack of knowledge from the period holds a guy back.

lokase
05-12-2006, 10:20 AM
I would have to say General Tso...

Having a Chinese dish named after you, "General Tso's Chicken", must equate to his greatness as a military leader!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Tso's_chicken

Cheers,

Haloface
05-12-2006, 10:36 AM
Again, I wouldn't really call him ancient, though.

Lleauric
05-12-2006, 12:38 PM
cesare borgia. =)

Malse
05-12-2006, 01:05 PM
No honorary mention for Rumsfeld? He's certainly ancient.

Haloface
05-12-2006, 01:08 PM
But is he great? :D

Bylimet Spiritwalker
05-12-2006, 04:42 PM
I would have to say General Tso...

Having a Chinese dish named after you, "General Tso's Chicken", must equate to his greatness as a military leader!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Tso's_chicken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Tso%27s_chicken)

Cheers,

I love that chicken!:D

Nanora
05-12-2006, 05:08 PM
I don't know. If you were a General would you want a chicken dish named after you, or would you rather see a beef, type dish with your name on it. Or hell maybe that is why his dish is a 'Chicken'*. :)

*Thats a joke btw. I doubt he was a chicken or history wouldn't have invested much time in him.

velvetsilence
05-12-2006, 10:50 PM
Recently saw a History channel program on the bridge Ceaser built to cross the rubicon. simply amazing he was unstopable by sheer force of will.

shagged the King of King's sister widely speculated Alex was gay so i think shagged an illnamed term there. was political at best, any actual "shagging" was probably for procreational reasons or simply just to drive home the WHO"S YER DADDY!!! angle.(this message bieng meant for the whole of the conquered populace most likely).
Alex is by far my most favorite on the list he was simply brilliant in ways i'm not sure have reallly been duplicated since. the forced march he did in Asia minor to catch the persians by suprise was a stroke of brilliance.
*damn cant find my book on alexanders battles i used to have so cant site details*
As far as Ghengis and the other Hordies, well really the germans cant actually claim the invention of Blitzkrieg warfare now can they? that and the simple fact that the mongols never became an occupational force in anyway factor heavily in thier favor. who in thier right mind would ever stand up too the horde twice?

Haloface
05-13-2006, 04:20 AM
'widely speculated Alex was gay so i think shagged an illnamed term there. was political at best, any actual "shagging" was probably for procreational reasons or simply just to drive home the WHO"S YER DADDY!!! angle.(this message bieng meant for the whole of the conquered populace most likely).
Alex is by far my most favorite on the list he was simply brilliant in ways i'm not sure have reallly been duplicated since. the forced march he did in Asia minor to catch the persians by suprise was a stroke of brilliance.
*damn cant find my book on alexanders battles i used to have so cant site details*'

- Well, most Greeks were "gay", but not so much in the modern sense. It was widely useds as a form of patronage. Sort of, "it's not what you know, but who you do" kinda thing.
Alexander used the daring tactic of sweeping around the right flank as far as possible with the largest portion of cavalary whilst the hoplite lines held the enemy in the left flank. Out-manouvering like this allowed a usual clear charge at the enemy of mass cavalary which would pretty much always shatter any flank.

His forced marches were impressive, but not always clever. Markakan, anyone?