View Full Version : History Debate - Week Seven (well, sorta)
Haloface
08-15-2004, 07:44 AM
We've not had one of these for a while.
So allow me to ask - What historical figure do you consider to be the underdog? In that they accomplished much, but are little recognized?
I'll have to go with Tamerlane, and when I get back from work, I'll prattle on about why.
Winterworg
08-15-2004, 12:36 PM
Oh... how... interesting.
Lleauric
08-15-2004, 01:13 PM
Shih Huang Ti. massively under appreciated for what he did and the reaches into today
At least unless you live in China...
Willgatus Airslasher
08-15-2004, 03:32 PM
Charles Martel, with the battle of Tours and the fate of Western civilization and all. The French can tell the rest of us with good cause (if not the greatest tact): "If not for us, you'd all be speaking Arabic."
And as much as I hate to agree with Halo, Tamerlane is up there as well IMO.
Winterworg
08-15-2004, 07:17 PM
Martel? You gotta be kidding. He said underdog, not vastly exaggerated, better supplied and fighting on his home turf.
Thormir
08-16-2004, 08:21 AM
Halo wasn't necessarily speaking of tactical underdogs but historical underdogs. The rest of the question:
In that they accomplished much, but are little recognized?
Esbat
08-16-2004, 11:35 AM
Hmmm....
Bjorne Herjulfson or Lief EirÃ*ksson as the first European to discover North America. Bjorne is credited with the first sightings, but Lief was the first to land.
Or perhaps we should credit Thorfinn Karlsefni with founding the first European colony in North America at Vinland.
Columbus gets far too much credit- children are lied to every day in school.
fildien
08-16-2004, 12:17 PM
Nikola Tesla
Esbat
08-16-2004, 01:10 PM
I was going to mention Tesla. Anyone who builds a death ray deserves "special" mention.
Winterworg
08-16-2004, 08:04 PM
Oh I'd definitely have to vote for my mom then.
akipt
08-16-2004, 08:35 PM
/agree Winter
My mom could hit me from 50 yards with her house shoe. Damn that thing hurt.
Lleauric
08-16-2004, 08:46 PM
My mom could hit me from 50 yards with her house shoe. Damn that thing hurt
She should have used a shot put ;)
Haloface
08-19-2004, 03:57 PM
Bismark has to be right up there for me.
Whenever the discussion of Germany is brought up - or whether you scale a book-shop or forum, Germany will be dominated by WW2 and Hitler.
People never tend to give Bismark - a political and military genius - the attention and credit he deserves.
Hitler may have been successful at rousing bands of nationalist rubble, and trigger wars on a disasterous scale, but Bismark was the true German icon, IMO, throughout the late-modern period of German history.
He is THE reason Prussia over-came the German states to unify them through, what, four lightning wars, that saw, among others, Denmark, Austria, and France completely crushed and humiliated. He did something every Holy Roman Emporer must have dreamed of, what no contemporary of future political figure could achieve - through no lack of trying, and what every European country must have dreaded.
Least not forget, he engineered a web of alliances and pretty much "shaped" Europe.
Admittedly, he set the stage of world-wide disaster. But goddamn, what a feat.
My original choice, of course, Tamerlane. He's continuously over-shadowed by Ghengis, but ruled over a larger area, with more success, though for a limited time. He actually brought more than just ruin to his lands. But education, advanced infrastructure, extensive trade, so forth. Definately someone worth far more recognition than is given. These are the sort of political figures that should garner far more respect than they do.
'Martel? You gotta be kidding. He said underdog, not vastly exaggerated, better supplied and fighting on his home turf.'
- Don't undermine the armies of Islam at that time. Sure, their lines of communication and supplies were so vastly stretched as to make it almost impossible to function with 100% effeciency, but they were a much superior force, in strength as well as tactics. This was an army that had conquered almost every previous Arabian provinces in North Africa and the Middle East, and had swept through the Visigoth Kingdom of Spain with more speed than Caeser in Gaul.
Not to mention the feat of actually producing a cooperating Frankish army to oppose the Umayyad's in the first place.
And, of course, the actual consequence of the victory is enormous.
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