U.S. soldier uses Quran for target practice; military apologizes

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A soldier used the Quran -- Islam's holy book -- for target practice, forcing the chief U.S. commander in Baghdad to issue a formal apology on Saturday.

Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond, commander of U.S. forces in Baghdad, apologized to leaders in Radhwaniya, in the western outskirts of Baghdad, for the staff sergeant who was a sniper section leader assigned to the headquarters of the 64th Armored Regiment. He also read a letter of apology by the shooter.

It was the first time the incident -- which tested the relationship between U.S.-backed Sunni militiamen and the military -- was made public since it was discovered May 11.

"I come before you here seeking your forgiveness," Hammond said to tribal leaders and others at the apology ceremony. "In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers."
Another military official kissed a Quran and presented is as "a humble gift" to the tribal leaders.

The soldier, whose name was not released, shot at a Quran on May 9, villagers said. The Quran used in the incident was discovered two days later, according to the military.

Hammond also read from the shooter's letter: "I sincerely hope that my actions have not diminished the partnership that our two nations have developed together. ... My actions were shortsighted, very reckless and irresponsible, but in my heart [the actions] were not malicious."

A tribal leader said "the criminal act by U.S. forces" took place at a shooting range at the Radhwaniya police station. After the shooters left, an Iraqi policeman found a target marked in the middle of the bullet-riddled Quran.

Copies of the pictures of the Quran obtained by CNN show multiple bullet holes and an expletive scrawled on one of its pages.
A military investigation found the shooter guilty and relieved him of duty; he will be redeployed to the United States for reassignment away from the 1st Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division, a U.S. official said.

"The actions of one soldier were nothing more than criminal behavior," Hammond said. "I've come to this land to protect you, to support you -- not to harm you -- and the behavior of this soldier was nothing short of wrong and unacceptable."
Officials said the soldier claimed he wasn't aware the book was the Quran. U.S. officials rejected the claim.

Tribal leaders, dignitaries and local security officials attended the ceremony, while residents carried banners and chanted slogans, including "Yes, yes to the Quran" and "America out, out."

Sheikh Hamadi al-Qirtani, in a speech on behalf of all tribal sheiks of Radhwaniya, called the incident "aggression against the entire Islamic world."

The Association of Muslim Scholars in Iraq also condemned the shooter's actions and the U.S. military's belated acknowledgment of the incident.
"As the Association of Muslim Scholars condemns this heinous crime against God's holy book, the Constitution of this nation, a source of pride and dignity," the groups statement said, "they condemned the silence by all those who are part of the occupation's agenda and holds the occupation and the current government fully responsible for this violation and reminds everyone that God preserves his book and he [God] is a great avenger."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/17/iraq.quran/index.html

With all of the disgusting things a minority of our soldiers are found doing in the Middle east, and towards muslims... Is it not only a matter of time before it becomes more then just Fanatical Muslims that want us dead?

Don't know what to really say about news like this... it just shows how 1 person can fuel the hatred of over a billion. And we don't need that hatred to be directed at us.

Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.

How else are you supposed to 0 in?

List the total number of ways you aren't a total fucking buffoon?

How else are you supposed to 0 in?

I don't know...so why don't you get some balls and go over there and tell us. No excuses, the army is taking just about anyone now, go for it.

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- What the Iraqi fighter found threatened America's vital alliance with Sunni militia.

A week ago in a police station shooting range on Baghdad's western outskirts, the American-allied Iraqi militiaman found what one or more GIs had been using for target practice -- a copy of the Quran, Islam's holy book.

Riddled with bullets, the rounds piercing deep into the thick volume, the pages were shredded. Turning the holy book in his hands, the man found two handwritten English words, scrawled in pen. "F*** yeah."
The discovery was incendiary. It was an affront to Islam and a serious challenge to the religious credentials of the U.S-allied militias, or Awakening Councils, who turned on al-Qaeda and are now on the U.S. government payroll. [/URL]

(http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/17/btsc.ware/index.html#cnnSTCVideo) Largely moderate Sunnis, the American-backed militias face constant accusations from Islamic groups that they have turned against Islam to support the cause of the infidels, or nonbelievers. If this indignity had gone unanswered, the Islamists' case would have been won.

Abdullah, the militiaman who found the defaced Quran, complained to his superiors. Soon, there was outrage among the tribes and population of Radhwaniya, a semi-rural area long home to loyalists of the former regime of Saddam Hussein.

Word of what the Americans had done rippled throughout the district and the fury spread. Honor was at stake, and the urge for a violent response against the insult was strong. However, tribal leaders made an approach to American commanders in the region. "Honestly, we have to defend our religion," said Sheikh Saad al-Falahi, "and relations [with the U.S.] would deteriorate if they did not apologize."
Having fought and then negotiated so hard and for so long to quiet the insurgency in Radhwaniya, American commanders were wary of the potential crisis.

The U.S. 4th Infantry Division is posted in Baghdad and surrounds; many of its commanders and soldiers are veterans of the Iraq campaign. Col. Ted Martin, commander of the Division's 1st Brigade, immediately launched an investigation, promising the tribal leaders a swift outcome.

Investigators soon identified the Army section that had been at the police station's small arms range, and a staff sergeant, a sniper section leader from the 64th Armor Regiment, was the primary suspect. After denying involvement, the sergeant eventually confessed, though he claimed he had no idea the book used for target practice was a Quran. Martin dismissed the excuse.

On Saturday, about a week after the incident (locals say the shooting practice was on May 9, U.S. forces say the Quran was discovered May 11), CNN was present for the showdown in Radwaniyeh as the Americans faced the tribes.

U.S. commanders arrived at a police outpost in heavily armored vehicles to be met by a human tempest; hundreds of chanting tribesmen lined up behind razor wire, offering their blood and souls in sacrifice for the Quran.
A former college quarterback, Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond, commander of the 4th Infantry Division, stood facing the angry crowd. His face was grim and fixed as tribal sheikhs swirled around him.

"I am a man of honor, I am a man of character. You have my word, this will never happen again," the general told the angry crowd through loudspeakers, pounding the makeshift podium three times with his fist.
"In the most humble manner, I look in to your eyes today and I say, please forgive me and my soldiers." The act of his sniper was criminal, he said. "I've come to this land to protect you, to support you...this soldier has lost the honor to serve the United States Army and the people of Iraq here in Baghdad."

Martin stood before the crowd next, opening his address with an Islamic blessing. He announced the sergeant had been relieved of duty with prejudice; reprimanded by the commanding general with a memorandum of record attached to his military record; dismissed from the regiment and redeployed from the brigade.

Holding a new Quran in his hands, he turned to the crowd. "I hope that you'll accept this humble gift." Martin kissed the Quran and touched it to his forehead as he handed it to the tribal elders. The crowd's voice rose, "Yes, yes, to the Quran. No, no, to the devil.

But would it be enough to appease the mood in Radhwaniya? A local sheikh came to the microphone. "In the name of all the sheikhs," he said, "we declare we accept the apology that was submitted."
With hands shaken and sheepish thank-yous made, the general and the colonel returned to their armored convoy. The crisis, it seems, was averted.

The stakes, though, had been high. If accord had not been found, says Sheikh Ayad Abd al-Jabbar, head of the local Support Council, it could have been dire.
"Then surely the situation would have changed in another direction and more tension will have risen up, after all the cooperation with the Americans to restore security."

[url]http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/17/btsc.ware/index.html


Good job Mr. Hammond... Disaster averted!!!

Man...talk about drama. :rolleyes:
Reminds me of folks who wanted to kill a woman for naming a bird some religious name of some sort. Geez
Some folks lack reasoning immensely.

Man...talk about drama. :rolleyes:
Reminds me of folks who wanted to kill a woman for naming a bird some religious name of some sort. Geez
Some folks lack reasoning immensely.

You don't think the Muslims had a right to be up in arms?

You really have to put yourself in other peoples shoes sometimes.

There is a country that is occupying your home. They say they are your friends and you help them secure your country. Then you find out that they have been using your holy book for target practice.

Wouldn't you feel stupid for helping the occupiers? Wouldn't you start to wonder if all those people saying "America is the devil" and "Death to America" are right?

This is a big deal... and the military handled it as well as I could have imagined they would have.

To deny the fact that an American soldier shooting the holy book of 1.5 billion people, and that others flushing it down toilets and ripping it up in front of inmates is a big deal, is foolish.

Sheikh Hamadi al-Qirtani, in a speech on behalf of all tribal sheiks of Radhwaniya, called the incident "aggression against the entire Islamic world." Yes the actions of one US Army Staff Sergeant set the standards for every other soldier in the army, I can't wait for my chance at the range... That's not a mountain, that's a mole hill. And they then wonder why we think they over-react?

Anyways IMHO The right thing was done in response. The guy was shit canned from his unit, and the unit CO told the locals, hey sorry about that and everyone sang kumbaya...

Yes the actions of one US Army Staff Sergeant set the standards for every other soldier in the army, I can't wait for my chance at the range... That's not a mountain, that's a mole hill. And they then wonder why we think they over-react?

Anyways IMHO The right thing was done in response. The guy was shit canned from his unit, and the unit CO told the locals, hey sorry about that and everyone sang kumbaya...

There have been multiple cases of defiling the Koran... as well as Multiple cases of mistreatment of prisoners. With our standards it will only be a big deal once 50% or more of the military has done it. Other people don't see it that way, and you wouldn't either if the roles were reversed.

And yes, the Military handled it as well as they possibly could have.

Yeah IIRC the flushing incident turned out to be bullshit. I don't recall any others being broadcast. As for the mistreatment of prisoners, well that's a whole other bucket of worms

You don't think the Muslims had a right to be up in arms?

You really have to put yourself in other peoples shoes sometimes.

There is a country that is occupying your home. They say they are your friends and you help them secure your country. Then you find out that they have been using your holy book for target practice.

Wouldn't you feel stupid for helping the occupiers? Wouldn't you start to wonder if all those people saying "America is the devil" and "Death to America" are right?

This is a big deal... and the military handled it as well as I could have imagined they would have.

To deny the fact that an American soldier shooting the holy book of 1.5 billion people, and that others flushing it down toilets and ripping it up in front of inmates is a big deal, is foolish.

In this Starrla is 100% right. Too many insane folks driving the bus over there.

When are they going to learn that God teaches tolerance?

Showing your colors here Jedd, turning the other cheek is a true Christians mandate. Flaming up and killing over a fucking birds name or about a book *which btw isn't supposed to be the end all be all* is apparently the Muslim's?

In this Starrla is 100% right. Too many insane folks driving the bus over there.

When are they going to learn that God teaches tolerance?

Showing your colors here Jedd, turning the other cheek is a true Christians mandate. Flaming up and killing over a fucking birds name or about a book *which btw isn't supposed to be the end all be all* is apparently the Muslim's?

Since when has this Christian nation been turning the other cheek?

Honestly the muslim response was not the point of this thread. They have shown very underwhelming anger towards their own people's atrocities many times and except for the small minority who speak out against it, they have failed to show anger at their own for diminishing their religion.The point was that incidents like this keep happening and we keep writing it off as criminal acts by individuals.

There has to be a point where we realize that something is wrong in the military and it needs to be fixed. The issue here fandros is that these little non big deal incidents are a huge deal when we are trying to convince followers of a religion that we are not fighting against them, but rather fanatics among them.

Reverse the roles, imagine being the occupied and I think these types of incidents would leave you feeling angry yet helpless.

Since when has this Christian nation been turning the other cheek?

Honestly the muslim response was not the point of this thread. They have shown very underwhelming anger towards their own people's atrocities many times and except for the small minority who speak out against it, they have failed to show anger at their own for diminishing their religion.

The point was that incidents like this keep happening and we keep writing it off as criminal acts by individuals.

There has to be a point where we realize that something is wrong in the military and it needs to be fixed.

Reverse the roles, imagine being the occupied and I think these types of incidents would leave you feeling angry yet helpless.


It's not just in the military that something is wrong, it's that everywhere something is wrong. If you or anyone, whether it be US Army, US Marine, Russian Army, Mehdi Army, Israeli Army, British Marine, Hezzbollah Militia, ANY military force that finds its soldiers in a drawn out war...things like this happen...they pick on the things that mean most to their enemy...

You watch your friends get maimed...die on a daily basis this is what happens...the blame goes on the "political leaders", if you can even call them leaders.

If they are hurting someone, a human being I would say yes...that is unacceptable but a book made of paper...no. It is not nice what he did. But to hurt or potentilally kill him is not a reasonable reaction. If someone wants to shoot up my religious book I would be pissed, consider him not nice but nothing I would violent about.

One must put things in perspective here of what is really important in this world and it is not a bunch of paper...it is what you hold in your heart.

I think the core difference seems at first glance simple to define.

Jesus was the son of a carpenter.

Muhammad was a warrior.

The topic here is not the reaction, but the act...

And Starrla I agree with you 100%, but deeply religious people do not... and there is nothing we can do about that. Send a muslim man to the south, and have him shoot at bible's and I can guarantee you he is a dead man.

And Fandros... with your comparisons it seems you are trying to make a statement. Are you implying that Islam is a violent religion? Because it seems you are, and it is quite commonly known that it is not

The more the extremists commit violence and less the moderates do to contain it the harder it'll be to sell that load.

The more the extremists commit violence and less the moderates do to contain it the harder it'll be to sell that load.


How many muslims are extremists at the moment? How many Christians? Your excuse for labeling a religion as violent doesn't fly with me. The argument that Christianity is violent can just as flimsily be made.

It doesn't matter wether the Muslims or Christians are right or wrong. What matters is that our military is trying to do a job over there. I'm not sure what that job is, but never the less. If we aspire to get the "job" done without inflaming the entire population of the middle east, then every single person needs to not do things that they know full well will piss them off. It doesn't matter if its no big deal to you, or its just a piece of paper. I don't believe there is a single American soldier in Iraq that didn't know that shooting up a Quran was going to piss people off. It's just stupid and totally counter productive to us being able to complete the mission and leave.

I agree Phel, it was an ignorant act.

The point was that incidents like this keep happening and we keep writing it off as criminal acts by individuals.

There has to be a point where we realize that something is wrong in the military and it needs to be fixed.


Looking at an organization like the U.S. Postal Service, there are over 800k employees who have all had to put up with the derogatory "going postal" phrase now because less than a dozen postal workers over a period of about 20 years have become violent. There is now a zero tolerance policy that can result in termination for even verbal confrontations. Has it made any difference? Hard to say.

The U.S. military presence in Iraq numbers approx 145k, and of those we have seen less than two dozen engage in "improper" activity or behavior over approx six years. It is a war zone, and that means the stress is exaggerated by at least 25 fold over what is happening in "civilian" life. But, unless I am mistaken, you are suggesting that all the military folks be looked at the same as postal workers, that there is something wrong with all because of a few.

I disagree.

Looking at an organization like the U.S. Postal Service, there are over 800k employees who have all had to put up with the derogatory "going postal" phrase now because less than a dozen postal workers over a period of about 20 years have become violent. There is now a zero tolerance policy that can result in termination for even verbal confrontations. Has it made any difference? Hard to say.

The U.S. military presence in Iraq numbers approx 145k, and of those we have seen less than two dozen engage in "improper" activity or behavior over approx six years. It is a war zone, and that means the stress is exaggerated by at least 25 fold over what is happening in "civilian" life. But, unless I am mistaken, you are suggesting that all the military folks be looked at the same as postal workers, that there is something wrong with all because of a few.

I disagree.

If you endanger the lives of other soldiers by doing something as stupid as shooting a Koran in the middle of a war with a Muslim country, you should be seeing prison. Just my opinion.

You didn't respond to Byl's post Jedd.

There is nothing wrong with the military, there are however individuals who do not , obviously , deal with the stress appropriately.

You didn't respond to Byl's post Jedd.

There is nothing wrong with the military, there are however individuals who do not , obviously , deal with the stress appropriately.

I don't know... There have been so many incidents since the start of this war that it needs to be addressed whether or not the Military can control its own soldiers.

It has really gotten ridiculous.

I am sorry but i do see an issue with them shooting the Quran.

If they had pictures of iraqi's burning a US flag while shooting the bible, and pissing on a picture of Jesus, Osi would feel the need to make sure his NRA membership was up-to-date, Fandros would have a 500 word post about it, and the rest of the forums would be ZOMG! Jedd would point out the hypocracy and then Byl would trash Jedd, Ibu would troll and something stupid.

While I dont think the military is "broken" i do feel the allowed racism is not within the principles that the US military wants. I have heard some of my friends come back form Iraq talking about towelheads and many other terms that i was shocked they would use.

People who do not see an issue with this IMO, are blinded by "patriotism" and fervent love for the concept of the US but not the concept of what is right or wrong.

Grey, folks burn the American Flag here in the States and I don't shoot them :P

The topic here is not the reaction, but the actAnd Starrla I agree with you 100%, but deeply religious people do not... and there is nothing we can do about that. ...

Oh ya there is.

Why are people unable to read and comprehend basic vocabulary anymore?

Of course there is an issue with desecrating someone's Holy Texts; that goes without saying.

The disagreement is in labeling the whole as being bad because of the few.

There are basic tenets to human nature, such as the fight or flight response. People react in different ways to stress, and in some cases the reaction is wholly inappropriate.

Why is it that when a post such as the one I did regarding the soldier helping a young Iraqi girl get prosthetic legs is made there are no subsequent posts that our military must be good, but when one is done of a soldier shooting the Quran pops up it is accompanied with statements that something is wrong with the entire military? The bias is so blatantly obvious it is pathetic.

Why are people unable to read and comprehend basic vocabulary anymore?

Of course there is an issue with desecrating someone's Holy Texts; that goes without saying.

The disagreement is in labeling the whole as being bad because of the few.

There are basic tenets to human nature, such as the fight or flight response. People react in different ways to stress, and in some cases the reaction is wholly inappropriate.

Why is it that when a post such as the one I did regarding the soldier helping a young Iraqi girl get prosthetic legs is made there are no subsequent posts that our military must be good, but when one is done of a soldier shooting the Quran pops up it is accompanied with statements that something is wrong with the entire military? The bias is so blatantly obvious it is pathetic.

The issue is in my opinion that the military does not do enough to combat racism within its ranks. These soldiers superiors call all Muslims Haji's and Towelheads, dehumanizing them. Leading to the same behavior from their subordinates. Then you have acts like this committed and everyone thinks it is not a big deal because it was one person.

The bottom line is, there needs to be more done to show these people that this kind of behavior is wrong and will not be accepted, BEFORE they commit these acts.

I don't pretend to know everything the Military says and does, but I have seen enough footage of soldiers talking about Iraqi's and heard enough stories to know that the military doesn't do enough to combat this behavior.

Hell, we violated the Geneva conventions during this war... that should say a lot.

Why is it that when a post such as the one I did regarding the soldier helping a young Iraqi girl get prosthetic legs is made there are no subsequent posts that our military must be good, but when one is done of a soldier shooting the Quran pops up it is accompanied with statements that something is wrong with the entire military? The bias is so blatantly obvious it is pathetic.

Its how we all work. We only remember the bad never the good. Its how the media has trained our brains to think. Bush has done some good things but we only focus on the bad.

Jedd has made good intelligent posts but most people just zomg about his pro-iranish type posts.

Welcome to the human condition of the 2000 era. What have you done lately.

I think this sums it up somewhat from an outsiders point of view...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/12/topstories3.iraq

dude...just link the article dont need to cut and paste and link, takes forever to scroll through posts to catch up :P

Oh sorry lol

will edit it out

If you endanger the lives of other soldiers by doing something as stupid as shooting a Koran in the middle of a war with a Muslim country, you should be seeing prison. Just my opinion.

I am not over there in that country at the moment. I have no idea what kind of pressures those soldiers see only from what I have heard from witness accounts which are not very pretty.

If he can take out his frustration and anger out on a book..then go for it. They can make a shooting range of books if it will make them feel better.

The one thing I am ashamed of is having waterboarding legal. THAT is a disgrace IMHO no matter if a muslim or christian. I think about it and it makes me sick to stomach. Shooting a book do NOT even compare.

I am not over there in that country at the moment. I have no idea what kind of pressures those soldiers see only from what I have heard from witness accounts which are not very pretty.

If he can take out his frustration and anger out on a book..then go for it. They can make a shooting range of books if it will make them feel better.

The one thing I am ashamed of is having waterboarding legal. THAT is a disgrace IMHO no matter if a muslim or christian. I think about it and it makes me sick to stomach. Shooting a book do NOT even compare.

It is not up to us to decide the worth of a book, or the reactions of an offended people.

That soldier turned his back on the people he is in Iraq defending, by offending them and desecrating their holy book. Whether or not you think the book has value doesn't matter.

It is not up to us to decide the worth of a book, or the reactions of an offended people.

That soldier turned his back on the people he is in Iraq defending, by offending them and desecrating their holy book. Whether or not you think the book has value doesn't matter.

As for worth that is up to the individual. However it is a inantimate object. It does not breath it has no life, it can not love. Means nothing more than say a piece of jewelry. Anyone who holds unto paper as though it was their life has priorities in the wrong area. It is the words in the book that one "lives" is what matters. It makes "reasonable" sense.

Now if the book "represents" ideas that individuals feel are what need respect I can understand that. For the same reason I would not be happy to see my flag burned or my religious book shot at but all means I am not going to go violent on someone because of it. That is not a "reasonable" reaction for the same token it is not reasonable to shoot a book.

However with the stresses one is under over there and humans can only take so much, I can find some reasoning why it might have happened. One unreasonable shooting at a book should not beget another unreasonable act to be violent.

The issue is in my opinion that the military does not do enough to combat racism within its ranks. These soldiers superiors call all Muslims Haji's and Towelheads, dehumanizing them. Leading to the same behavior from their subordinates.

Hell, we violated the Geneva conventions during this war... that should say a lot.


I agree that the violation of the Geneva Conventions is a huge factor, and I consider it in how I view the Commander in Chief and the top brass and the manner in which they have handled prisoners of war.

But, as far as your allegation of superior officers using disparaging and "racist" descriptive terms, can you please show some proof of that, other than someone saying "I heard so-and-so say"? I am not sure of how looey's are handled anymore, but I do know that from Captain on up, use of any racist or disparaging remark as you allege would result in not only a letter in a file and possibly additional discipline, but would for all intents and purposes put a halt on any upward movement for the officer, ending his career. Keep in mind that we have a larger number of troops who are followers of Islam, and insulting the enemy as you claim would be insulting them, and I do not believe that the "superior officers" are keen to do so, especially with the numbers down on recruiting.

If you are going to accuse the "superior officers" of using language dehumanizing the enemy, please provide proof along with your charges.

Bush has done some good things but we only focus on the bad.


wait a minute, name three good things bush has done, better yet, name one.

wait a minute, name three good things bush has done, better yet, name one.


His daughter Barbara is cute!

I agree that the violation of the Geneva Conventions is a huge factor, and I consider it in how I view the Commander in Chief and the top brass and the manner in which they have handled prisoners of war.

But, as far as your allegation of superior officers using disparaging and "racist" descriptive terms, can you please show some proof of that, other than someone saying "I heard so-and-so say"? I am not sure of how looey's are handled anymore, but I do know that from Captain on up, use of any racist or disparaging remark as you allege would result in not only a letter in a file and possibly additional discipline, but would for all intents and purposes put a halt on any upward movement for the officer, ending his career. Keep in mind that we have a larger number of troops who are followers of Islam, and insulting the enemy as you claim would be insulting them, and I do not believe that the "superior officers" are keen to do so, especially with the numbers down on recruiting.

If you are going to accuse the "superior officers" of using language dehumanizing the enemy, please provide proof along with your charges.

Check out the documentary "No End in Sight" (http://www.noendinsightmovie.com/)

Name one...easy cheesy

Bob Geldof in Rwanda gives Bush his props



KIGALI, Rwanda — Bob Geldof has parachuted into the White House travel pool here in Rwanda, and will join us on the flight from Air Force One to Ghana tonight.

He's going to interview President Bush for Time magazine and several European outlets, such as Liberacion, about aid to Africa for HIV/AIDS, malaria, and business development.

Mr. Geldof is an Irish rock and roll singer and longtime social activist who has helped, along with U2 rocker Bono, raise awareness about need in Africa. His most well known achievement is organizing the Live Aid concert in 1985, which raised money for debt relief for poor African countries.

But Mr. Geldof has remained closely engaged with African affairs since then, and he spoke off the cuff to reporters today who were waiting for a press conference with Mr. Bush and Rwandan President Paul Kagame.

Mr. Geldof praised Mr. Bush for his work in delivering billions to fight disease and poverty in Africa, and blasted the U.S. press for ignoring the achievement.

Mr. Bush, said Mr. Geldof, "has done more than any other president so far."

"This is the triumph of American policy really," he said. "It was probably unexpected of the man. It was expected of the nation, but not of the man, but both rose to the occasion."

"What's in it for [Mr. Bush]? Absolutely nothing," Mr. Geldof said.

Mr. Geldof said that the president has failed "to articulate this to Americans" but said he is also "pissed off" at the press for their failure to report on this good news story.

"You guys didn't pay attention," Geldof said to a group of reporters from all the major newspapers.

Bush administration officials, incidentally, have also been quite displeased with some of the press coverage on this trip that they have viewed as overly negative and ignoring their achievements.

Anyone who holds unto paper as though it was their life has priorities in the wrong area. It is the words in the book that one "lives" is what matters. It makes "reasonable" sense.
How many lives have been given and taken to protect our Constitution? Ideas, sometimes written on paper, can often become more powerful and valuable than any person's life.

We often forget in the modern world how much power symbols hold. Look at the stir around Obama and his flag pin, for example. Watch a football game and pay attention to mascots and decorated fans. Go to a high school and paint their rival's name on the field. Sit through a Catholic mass, or better yet an Eastern Orthodox service.People who do not see an issue with this IMO, are blinded by "patriotism" and fervent love for the concept of the US but not the concept of what is right or wrong.I'm not blinded, but I've never served in the military, and I've definately never been in a combat zone for an extended period of time. I'm not about to condone the soldier, but I wouldn't condemn him either. If we think we can take humans and toss them into that type of environment for an extended period of time, and nothing like this will happen, we're delusional. It sounds as though he's already been disciplined, his superior apologized, and we ought to move on. A far greater offense is the actions of that man's government, and I have no problem speaking about that idiocy.

I do think it's interesting that more of an issue isn't made about the method of his superior's apology. It doesn't bother me, but I would think that would ruffle some of the anti-Islamic feathers in this country.

It was a very respectful and superbly handled apology.

It was a very respectful and superbly handled apology.Ah, but symbols do have power. What lies behind an American officer kissing Islam's holy book?

How many lives have been given and taken to protect our Constitution? Ideas, sometimes written on paper, can often become more powerful and valuable than any person's life.


Protecting the ideas espoused upon the paper, and protecting the copies of the paper itself, are two wholly different issues. If this were a report about someone shooting a copy of the Constitution, eliciting an uproar and hateful speech, you would likely be among those saying it was ridiculous to get so wound up over a copied document. Not a great example.

Off-hand, I don't know of anyone personally who would be rising to the same level of indignation over a Bible being treated in such a manner as we are witnessing with followers of Islam and their reaction to the Quran being treated like this. But, it goes right back to the same failure in planning that has been addressed before; the U.S. has failed completely to attempt to understand the complexities of the Islamic faith and the manner in which it's adherents (including the fanatics) hold to and interpret the teachings.

Ah, but symbols do have power. What lies behind an American officer kissing Islam's holy book?

Good thing that officer knows the customs of Islam in regards to the Koran. He kissed it and touched it to his forehead, which is what you are supposed to do every time you touch the book.

I see where your going with it though... It is interesting to see if anyone gets mad about an American officer kissing an Islamic holy book... even though it would be stupid to be offended by it, as there are many American Muslims, and it is a sign of brilliant diplomacy.

If you endanger the lives of other soldiers by doing something as stupid as shooting a Koran in the middle of a war with a Muslim country, you should be seeing prison. Just my opinion.

Not that I don't agree with the act being stupid and counter productive, what law on the books right now do you prosecute this?

Not that I don't agree with the act being stupid and counter productive, what law on the books right now do you prosecute this?

Are there not different laws/rules in the military? There is no law I could think of for a non military application because it wouldn't be necessary or lawful to punish someone for those actions.

However in the middle of a war in a Muslim country... Dunno, just seems like him being reassigned to the US is not harsh enough for his actions.

The issue is, if there isn't a law on the book, there's no way to throw him in prison

Ah, well then at least a dishonorable discharge :(

Aren't there rules for conduct that the soldiers are briefed on when they enter a new country? I remember that being talked about frequently in the news during the Gulf War.

Protecting the ideas espoused upon the paper, and protecting the copies of the paper itself, are two wholly different issues. If this were a report about someone shooting a copy of the Constitution, eliciting an uproar and hateful speech, you would likely be among those saying it was ridiculous to get so wound up over a copied document. Not a great example.
What if an occupying Islamic force, stationed in DC, used a copy of the Constitution for target practice?

You think I wouldn't be wound up about that? Think again.

There are briefings before you enter any country to aprise you of the culture's do's and don'ts.

Ah, well then at least a dishonorable discharge :(

The official letter of reprimand he received is far worse a punishment than that. Trust me on that one, I would just about rather do hard time in Leavenworth than get one of those tossed in my 201 File.

Ah, well then at least a dishonorable discharge :(

For what?

For what?

Are you serious?

How about the desecration of the holy book of the Islamic Iraqi populace whom he is liberating?

I don't recall that being in the UMCJ...

I don't recall that being in the UMCJ...

Well they better add it before someone dies because a Muslim who normally wouldn't take up arms decides Americans really are evil, and kills one of our soldiers.

Are you serious?

How about the desecration of the holy book of the Islamic Iraqi populace whom he is liberating?

The problem for what you are suggesting here is there is no law on the books prohibiting this. Even if they were to enact one, they couldn't do what you proposed to the guy that did the act in this case. They can't make up laws after something happens to prosecute someone for something before said law even existed.

The problem for what you are suggesting here is there is no law on the books prohibiting this. Even if they were to enact one, they couldn't do what you proposed to the guy that did the act in this case. They can't make up laws after something happens to prosecute someone for something before said law even existed.

Understood... I am just frustrated

Motherfuckers who wear that uniform and represent me while doing shit like that really piss me off. It not only tarnishes are military more then George Bush already has, but I feel that it tarnishes me as an American.

George Bush tarnished the military?

Hmmm funny, don't feel that way ;P

George Bush tarnished the military?

Hmmm funny, don't feel that way ;P

His wars did in my opinion. Not really the military's fault.

conduct unbecoming?

IMO he deserves OTH as a best case.

How many lives have been given and taken to protect our Constitution? Ideas, sometimes written on paper, can often become more powerful and valuable than any person's life.

What idea in ones head or paper would be more important than a person's life?
I am saying this sincerely to understand not to be demeaning.

Ah, but symbols do have power. What lies behind an American officer kissing Islam's holy book?

I think he was kissing some hinny. All has to do with power, not respect, IMHO. Repect and power do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Apparently, something along the lines of:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

What idea in ones head or paper would be more important than a person's life?
I am saying this sincerely to understand not to be demeaning.

The Constitution is definitely more important than my life.

What idea in ones head or paper would be more important than a person's life?
I am saying this sincerely to understand not to be demeaning.

Every soldier in our military is basically vowing to protect our constitution with their lives are they not? Isn't the constitution where our freedom comes from in the first place?

One will have great difficulty living life to its fullest without those. I hear and see other countries where people do not have those rights. They have never had them in their life so they have no idea what they are missing. All they have known is oppression. ESPECIALLY being a woman.

I feel so lucky to have been born here. I must say one of my first questions from my creator is going to be ...what did I do to get so lucky to be born in America and not in.......*cough*.

We all would die for those rights Sanchek, it just might need to be right in our face and literally in our backyard before we do. In all the time of recorded history that fight for those rights happen over and over again. There is always the folks that want power over other folks...LOL Never ends...lol :rolleyes:

insure domestic Tranquility

I find that part funny at this current date and time.

I find that part funny at this current date and time.
Indeed. I suppose it's a good thing for the current administration that our military has forgotten that their oath read: all enemies, foreign or domestic

What if an occupying Islamic force, stationed in DC, used a copy of the Constitution for target practice?

Back on topic, I'm still interested to hear from any US citizen who wouldn't flip out if the shoe was on the other foot.

Back on topic, I'm still interested to hear from any US citizen who wouldn't flip out if the shoe was on the other foot.

I would not care if it was my religious book even if it had been blessed with holy water or my constitution. I would be more concerned if the bullets were near anyone and I mean anyone.

No bullet on my religious book or constitution is going to lessen the strength of the words inpowered that is within them. The words enpower people not the physical book or paper.

Just my opinion.

I think he was kissing some hinny. All has to do with power, not respect, IMHO. Repect and power do not necessarily go hand in hand.I think it's safe to say he was absolutely kissing up, and I don't entirely disagree with the action. But in a discussion regarding symbols, it's not a small gesture. I'm surprised it wasn't viewed as further desecration, to have an infidel kiss the holy book.

Regarding the Constitution - having a foreigner shoot a bullet through it wouldn't be the first time copies of that document have been abused on home soil. The Constitution has been burned, turned into parodies, ripped up, painted over - you name it - by protesters and artists in the US. How about demonstrations oversees where we've seen videos of American flags being burned? There is definately a difference in level headed conduct regarding these types of things between the western world and the Islamic nations.

Which doesn't make it a smart action by that soldier. But it would be good to keep things in perspective.

I think there's a gigantic difference between some hippies exercising free speech and an occupying military force of an opposing ideology.

I think there's a gigantic difference between some hippies exercising free speech and an occupying military force of an opposing ideology.

Why would it be different? Dissecration is dissecration. I think it would be more hurtful for it to occur from folks who claim the country their own....the very ones who should love the country. I would almost expect the hate from a opposing ideology.

I think there's a gigantic difference between some hippies exercising free speech and an occupying military force of an opposing ideology.

Exactly!


When a Muslim kills another Muslim over shooting the Koran, then Kanyli may be correct in the comparison. However I have yet to hear of Muslims doing such a thing to their own holy book.

Why would it be different? Dissecration is dissecration. I think it would be more hurtful for it to occur from folks who claim the country their own....the very ones who should love the country. I would almost expect the hate from a opposing ideology.

The fact is that the whole world doesn't think like you or me sometimes Starrla, and however you may feel about the subject, it is your right, but we are dealing with different cultures and different people.

There are many Americans who would agree with you that the two situations are just as offensive... however you do not kill your own people for dissent. An enemy occupying force however? Fair game.

Bottomline...shooting a book no matter what book should not beget violence....it is not reasonable...just is not.

Bottomline...shooting a book no matter what book should not beget violence....it is not reasonable...just is not.

To you...

That idiot should have shot at a copy of Harry Potter... People sitting here making excuses for why it didn't matter that it was the Koran are reaching a level of absurdity, in which they deny what is, and speak of what they think should be.

If I had a photo album of my mother and father (if they were deceased) and it was all I had to remember them by. And someone took it, set it up and took shots at it... That person would be beaten to a bloody pulp.

Sorry but we all think differently about what is important to us.

The fact is that the whole world doesn't think like you or me sometimes Starrla, and however you may feel about the subject, it is your right, but we are dealing with different cultures and different people.

You site difference...I can site things that make us completely the same. If you ask folks what makes them happy it all comes down to the SAME things. Ask a American , British, Japanese...they are the same. We breath the same air...bodies all work the same. We all have the same needs to survive. Differences can be used for excuses for lousy behavior. I dont buy it. And you can't sell it to me.

You site difference...I can site things that make us completely the same. If you ask folks what makes them happy it all comes down to the SAME things. Ask a American , British, Japanese...they are the same. We breath the same air...bodies all work the same. We all have the same needs to survive. Differences can be used for excuses for lousy behavior. I dont buy it. And you can't sell it to me.

The qualities of people that are alike, do not diminish the fact that there are many qualities that are different. To deny that those qualities are important is to deny that one person is any different from the next.

Example:

A Muslim man may believe that just like you, his children are the most important aspect of his life. However he may believe that in order for them to be given the best life, they must follow the teachings of Allah, and be proud of their heritage and culture.

This person is likely to get offended when an Occupying army starts using his Holy book for target practice.

If I had a photo album of my mother and father (if they were deceased) and it was all I had to remember them by. And someone took it, set it up and took shots at it... That person would be beaten to a bloody pulp.

Sorry but we all think differently about what is important to us.

Here is a prime example.

Family (definition is broad but still refers to same thing..our loved ones.) runs top importance for each of us in this world. You are not the only one. If I had only one picture of my family and it was destroyed, whoever destroyed it could never take my memories away. I close my eyes and they would be there.

Keep in mind folks can take your money, your home, anything worldly you hold dear but they cant take your education or your good memories away. Why those to things are the best things to invest in. :)

Here is a prime example.

Family (definition is broad but still refers to same thing..our loved ones.) runs top importance for each of us in this world. You are not the only one. If I had only one picture of my family and it was destroyed, whoever destroyed it could never take my memories away. I close my eyes and they would be there.

Keep in mind folks can take your money, your home, anything worldly you hold dear but they cant take your education or your good memories away. Why those to things are the best things to invest in. :)

Yet it doesn't mean that you won't turn around and punish them for what they have taken.

Yet it doesn't mean that you won't turn around and punish them for what they have taken.

Because stealing is wrong. But in America that might mean a slap on the wrist..lol Our jails cant take anymore inmates..LOL

Starrla, those things are easy to say while sitting comfortably in California, playing video games and posting on message boards.

Everyone has their snapping point, and I don't think you are realistically considering the amount of strain that the people in Iraq are under. We bombed their infrastructure right into the stone age, we've killed countless numbers of their women and children as acceptable collateral damage, and now we've "surged" to overwhelmingly occupy their country.

It seems obvious that we've pushed those people to the point that it should come as no surprise when shooting up their holy text causes a disproportionate response.

Bottomline...shooting a book no matter what book should not beget violence....it is not reasonable...just is not.


"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend; inside of a dog, it is too dark to read." - Groucho Marx

What if an occupying Islamic force, stationed in DC, used a copy of the Constitution for target practice?




As a side question, doesn't that Constitution protect the soldier's rights the same as the hippies who burn the flag as an act of protest?

I wanna say i remember an article about a officer getting a OTH for publicly burning the flag in protest of Kuwait YEARS ago. I will try and find the article.

Yes the constitution protects the soldiers rights the same, but soldiers are also held to different standards than civilians. Try being in debt and being in the military.

Try being in debt and being in the military.

So they can't buy a house and get a loan? Can't have credit cards? There's nothing against a military person 'being in debt.'

Get deliquient on any of that sir is what i meant. I don't consider house, car and the like "getting into debt" Also payday advances big no-no.

There is a huge difference from 'getting into debt' and defaulting on a loan or making late payments.

Buying a home is 'getting into debt.'
Going to college and getting student loans is 'getting into debt.'
Getting a credit card and buying even just a candy bar on that card is 'getting into debt.'
Buying a car and getting a car loan is 'getting into debt.'

Starrla,

You think it's wrong for the Muslim populace to get so worked up over the desecration of what you simply consider just another book.

They probably think it's wrong for you to cyber people in a video game.

Not everyone shares the same values, nor should they be expected too.

As a side question, doesn't that Constitution protect the soldier's rights the same as the hippies who burn the flag as an act of protest?
No, it doesn't. Never has, that I know of.

Certain constitutonal rights are suspended when you are a soldier. Freedom of speech, ect.
Basically anything that goes against what the Commander-in-Chief's stance is.

Starrla, those things are easy to say while sitting comfortably in California, playing video games and posting on message boards.

Okay if you want to use the fact that I read your boards, play EQ and live in California to down play my opinion...then you win. LOL

Disclaimer: It wasn't very smart, as others have pointed out, to antagonize pretty much the entire population of a country we're trying to win over. You don't win hearts and minds in a war zone by being an asshole- certain actions that are just fine in peacetime don't go over well in a war zone. Idealism often has to take a back seat to the reality of the situation you find yourself in. It sucks but that is the way the world works.

Also, we've been over this a billion times on the boards. I know nobody is going to change their minds about what I'm going to write about below. Feel free to split this topic off if it doesn't belong here.
-----------------------------

As noted above, things in a war zone aren't the same as they are in the good U.S.A. However, sitting in my nice air conditioned building over here, I'm free to voice my opinions in a more antagonistic way without getting an article of reprimand in my file or getting shot at. I consider myself lucky in that regard.

At the risk of sounding like a troll, all this episode and discussion does is highlight exactly how silly religion is to me in the first place. If you don't believe in a religious work, all that the sacred text becomes at that point in time is a work of fiction.

Religion, in general, doesn't deserve one ounce of respect. People, in general, deserve respect, but the ideas they hold in their head are open to debate and ridicule. From where I'm sitting, unwavering belief in an imaginary friend is something that is excusable in children but seems out of place in an adult. I grant religion as much respect as I have for an adult that honestly believes in astrology, Santa Claus or underpants gnomes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAC_cGVnUg

Okay if you want to use the fact that I read your boards, play EQ and live in California to down play my opinion...then you win. LOL
The point isn't to "win".

I just don't think you're really considering what a powder keg it is over there. It's unimaginable what a mess we've made for those people. Adding insult to injury is asking for a lot of trouble.

Jedd,
I can really read your personal feelings within yours posts. It is ok to be passionate about what you believe but I think a little objectivity is due on this topic. I am going to start with our military for which I was a part of during Desert Shield/Fox. All soldiers relinquish their Constitutional Rights and swear to adhere to UCMJ instead. All infractions are dealt with by non-judicial means unless appealed to a higher authority within each branch of service. All soldiers are told they are foreign diplomats of the United States when they are deployed abroad and therefore all of their actions can be used as representing American views. As a representative diplomat all soldiers should adhere to the policies set by the chain of command. Now let me write my view on this lengthy topic.

The action of shooting a book does not seem criminal by itself. The iconic view of an American desecrating a holy object can be atrocious to some but that is not criminal action. The only infraction done by this soldier is that he is not a positive influence as a foreign diplomat for which he should be removed from the eyesight of those he insulted. He should be charged with breaking Article 134 of the UCMJ which is the "catch all" and is sometimes viewed as the "I was a dumbass and got caught law". I am sure his chances of making rank is halted. And without the option of being re-deployed into this hot-spot of the world, I find very little use for keeping this soldier employed in the armed services so the denial of his reenlistment could be set. But a minor infraction (basically equivalent to misdemeanor) is hardly worth giving a dishonorable discharge for. I find this incident far better than reading about physical abuse done to prisoners or innocent people being arrested in case they are associated with terrorist organizations.

People should be allowed to demonstrate their views in a peaceful manner no matter if it includes burning of flags, books, pictures, or religious objects. However, US diplomats should not take part in this demonstrations unless instructed to. I think the soldier should have left the shooting of books to a more private venue where the insult is not being delivered.

I grant religion as much respect as I have for an adult that honestly believes in astrology, Santa Claus or underpants gnomes.


Ok, I can respect that stance, but wander down this path for me a bit...

What about the ideals behind the facade?
Santa Claus is just the embodiment of the spirit of giving. While I don't believe that there is a jolly old Elf that visits good children and brings gifts on Christmas Eve, I believe it it is better to give, than to recieve.

Religion is just another way people try to get other people to behave. Be good in this life, and you get the rewards in the afterlife. Never mind that no one has ever come back from the dead (unless you count that Jesus Christ fellow) to tell us you really do get the payoff of being good in this life.

Some people need a payoff to be decent people in this life. Although in general, those people that do, usually can't adhere to the rules of the "payoff" for very long....

"Yes, yes to the Quran" and "America out, out."



Couldn't agree more. Wish we would just leave.

What about the ideals behind the facade?
Santa Claus is just the embodiment of the spirit of giving. While I don't believe that there is a jolly old Elf that visits good children and brings gifts on Christmas Eve, I believe it it is better to give, than to recieve.

I take the position that a thinking person doesn't need the facade in order to judge an idea as good or bad.

Religion is just another way people try to get other people to behave. Be good in this life, and you get the rewards in the afterlife.

To expand upon the above point, if you're the type of person who needs an imaginary friend to threaten you with otherworldly punishments or rewards to behave in a civilized manner, I'm not sure I want you anywhere near me. Being a moral and ethical person should be the goal in any life.

Heck, if we look at the famous 10 commandments, most of them make perfectly good sense, god or no god.

Honor your father and mother
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
You shall not covet your neighbor's house
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife

Granted, my cultural upbringing and position in society influence my outlook, but I don't think gods are needed anymore. To repeat: A good idea is the same, god or no god.

Education would do a whole hell of a lot more towards getting people to realize that humans aren't so different and maybe we all deserve respect than religious dogma ever will. For example, it is my hope that any culture that advocates "honor killings" vanishes from the world but never fades from memory.

Science could do more than prayer ever could in working towards the elimination of human suffering. Just imagine if all of the money funneled into church coffers (that hasn't been used for humanitarian purposes) over the past 10 years was put towards research to cure malaria.

A culture of personal responsibility would do more than one of faith getting people to realize that their actions matter.

Another view:

http://secularoutpost.blogspot.com/2008/05/hindu-honor-killing.html#links

Funny how that was the next place I visited right after the post above.

Ok, basically this thread comes down to a representative of our country during a time of war and occupation of a foreign country exhibited behavior contrary to the public good, and embarrassing to the U.S. Sanchek pointed out that the soldier is not protected by the Constitution. The soldier is receiving punishment.

Thinking about Constitutional protections, I recall during World War II citizens of this country who spoke out in favor of the enemy and against the U.S. were charged with giving aid and comfort to the enemy; wouldn't the Constitution protect their freedom to speak out? Is there some difference during a time of war?

Now, during World War II there was Tokyo Rose and Berlin Betty (or whatever she was called) who were constantly trying to tell the American soldiers how what they were doing was wrong, and pointing out the "atrocities" committed by the G.I.'s, and trying to persuade them to end their participation in conflict against the enemy. I believe they were considered to be criminal by the U.S. Justice Department.

Now, our country is at war, and I am wondering if the Constitutional protections that were apparently suspended during WWII are currently suspended again? Can the Homeland Security folks round up people for giving aid and comfort to the enemy here at home, by their public speech and behavior?

jedd posted about an American soldier inflaming the passions of those in the host country where we are fighting, and wants him crucified. Yet, jedd is constantly searching out exactly these kinds of stories to inflame passions here at home, giving the same kind of anti-troops propaganda as Tokyo Rose; should we refer to jedd as Tehran Theresa, or Baghdad Barbie? Should his speech be protected by the Constitution, even though we are in a state of war, and he is blatantly publicly taking the side of those countries considered enemies by our government, and speaking out against our entire military because of the actions of a few? What is the ratio of positive articles about our troops compared to the bad ones that jedd posts?

Perhaps if jedd was to take his "message" to the nearest military base he could convert some soldiers, but to constantly press the issue here on these forums seems an exercise in extreme futility IMHO. What does he hope to accomplish, other than appearing to be giving aid and comfort to the enemy?

Yes, the soldier definitely fucked up with that behavior, and while I have no idea of what all was taking place in his mind leading up to that I do agree removing him from the war zone is appropriate. But, why should he enjoy any less protection from his country's Constitution than jedd does for his constant inflammatory anti-military and anti-war speech? He at least stepped up to serve his country.

But, why should he enjoy any less protection from his country's Constitution than jedd does for his constant inflammatory anti-military and anti-war speech? He at least stepped up to serve his country.

The soldier signed a contract with the United States Government which suspended his Constitutional rights. Jedd did not.

The problem from the start with our involvement in the middle east is that we have fundamentally different ways of thinking about things. For example, we think of wars as short term events, since at least the major American civilization doesn't date back that far. The middle east is happy to hold grudges between groups for a long time.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.quran/index.html

They aren't going to play this down, or let it go, and I doubt they really care about due process or the UMCJ. While we've seen shots of American symbols (flags, namely) destroyed in public protests, this is a big ugly step up in their eyes. And apparently the commander's apology didn't quite cut it."I have asked that first this apology be officially documented; second a guarantee from the U.S. military to inflict the maximum possible punishment on this soldier so it would be a deterrent for the rest of the soldiers in the future."Cut off hands maybe? Family on pikes? Maybe 'inflict the maximum punishment' is translated poorly, or reads differently to others than it does to me.Sheikh Hamadi al-Qirtani, in a speech on behalf of all tribal sheikhs of Radhwaniya, called the shooting "aggression against the entire Islamic world."A healthy dose of perspective for us.

As Kanyli points out, there is a huge disconnect between our current administration and the realities of the Middle east, and it's religion and culture and traditions. If there had been proper planning and preparation before we undertook this invasion, many of these ugly incidents may well have never occurred because emphasis would have been placed on the Iraqi people's do's and don'ts, which are obviously much different than ours.

One thing is certain: no matter how long it takes to make an end to our presence in Iraq, there will be those who will still remember this insult upon their religion. But, it does no good to do all the gnashing of teeth and hand-wringing here; that is simply wasted energy.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/29/iraq.bible/index.html

More stories of our troops not helping the mission.

Wow, long thread to read through..

First off..the actions by the marine were deplorable and the actions taken by the military, appropriate. He is a diplomat, as we all are to some degree when overseas....or even just over the border, and his actions were counter-productive to the mission.

It's all a matter of perception, as far as this incident is concerned. As Americans, after seeing the way way way over the top reactions to a book being written (Rushdie), some stoopid cartoons and a teddy bear named mohammed, we take the reactions by Muslims, see the protests...and generalize. In defense, when you thousands of people with hateful banners, burning crap, and talking about death to infidels it gives the impression, this isn't just the radicals, but the masses who think this way. As usual the truth lies somewhere in between.

Jedd made some good points about perception and how the culture of the middle east reacts the way they do. Actions like this, that we tend to trivialize because of our culture (my reaction to someone shooting the bible would be to buy a new one....if I even had the motivation to read that fine work of fiction), have very adverse consequences in that area of the world. The very fabric of their lives, in general, are very much wrapped up in their religion...whether you view that as good or bad is again a matter of perception.

I think Jedd is incorrect condemning the the military for not doing enough. Considering the situation, the numbers, and the general stress of the situation, our military has performed exceptionally well. What strikes me is how much play this kind of thing gets and how infrequently we here about he good things these fine men and women do on a daily basis under horrible circumstances.

You don't think the Muslims had a right to be up in arms?

You really have to put yourself in other peoples shoes sometimes.

There is a country that is occupying your home. They say they are your friends and you help them secure your country. Then you find out that they have been using your holy book for target practice.

Wouldn't you feel stupid for helping the occupiers? Wouldn't you start to wonder if all those people saying "America is the devil" and "Death to America" are right?

This is a big deal... and the military handled it as well as I could have imagined they would have.

To deny the fact that an American soldier shooting the holy book of 1.5 billion people, and that others flushing it down toilets and ripping it up in front of inmates is a big deal, is foolish.

If Iraq invaded the USA to force a constitution that more closely followed the Qaran, and it was found that one of their soldiers used a bible wrapped in the constitution wrapped in an american flag for target practice, all that would spark is a debate as to whether that soldier was an idiot.

The thinness of the skins of many Muslims is what dehumanizes followers of Islam in the eyes of many in the western world. It's a thowback to the middle ages.

Reacting violently to the death of your family member? sure. To seeing people starving? sure. To getting assaulted yourself, definitely. To seeing a symbol defiled? Are you sh#tting me? Americans burn their own flag when they want to make a point. Shooting a holy book is a constitutionally protected right.

Diplomaticly idiotic, but not criminal. The only thing that should happen to that soldier is that he get sent to sensitivity training and removed from the theatre.

Stop it Maniacles your making too much sense!