Thats the title CNN has on this article:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/24/immigration.protest.ap/index.html

Since when is the American Dream to go into a country illegally? I was reading and correct me if I am wrong but if an American is caught illegally in Mexico it can be a 6 year prison term...here in the US its usually a slap on the wrist and get your behind out of here. I don't care if my Mexican Ethic food is going to rise in price or a head of lettuce becomes $10....hit the road jack if you don't follow the proper procedures others have to follow to be in this country.

"They're here for the American Dream," said Malissa Greer, 29, who joined a crowd estimated by police to be at least 10,000 strong. "God created all of us. He's not a God of the United States. He's a God of the world."

"They're here for the American Dream," said Malissa Greer, 29, who joined a crowd estimated by police to be at least 10,000 strong. "God created all of us. He's not a God of the United States. He's a God of the world."


And, what do you suppose the odds are of Ms Greer being out there joining the march by those protesting their increasing insurance costs, medical premiums, etc., but never questioning the possibility that the illegal immigrants are any part of the cause of those increases.

Seems like the INS missed a great chance to do some green card checks.

Good grief, they're interviewing people on TV publicly saying they have no documents.

They ticked off most of downtown Phoenix. I picked a great day to leave town. Not a great way to get people on your side.

They were waving Mexican flags. Very telling, since they're asking for rights in another country.

They marched without a permit (although I think requiring a permit for a protest is a little silly).

There are reports on the news of protesters pulling students out of classrooms. Too bad we're on spring break, I'd love to have someone try that in my classroom.

I normally consider myself a pretty humane person, but this is ridiculous. We're allowing an illegal population to break additional laws, touting symbols from another country and claiming publicly that they are illegal?

This is what happens when a situation is ignored and allowed to grow unchecked.

Good grief, they're interviewing people on TV publicly saying they have no documents.

They ticked off most of downtown Phoenix. I picked a great day to leave town. Not a great way to get people on your side.

They were waving Mexican flags. Very telling, since they're asking for rights in another country.

They marched without a permit (although I think requiring a permit for a protest is a little silly).

There are reports on the news of protesters pulling students out of classrooms. Too bad we're on spring break, I'd love to have someone try that in my classroom.

I normally consider myself a pretty humane person, but this is ridiculous. We're allowing an illegal population to break additional laws, touting symbols from another country and claiming publicly that they are illegal?

This is what happens when a situation is ignored and allowed to grow unchecked.

Very true. I've often thought about going and picking up a group of Illegals I see often standing, waiting to be picked up for the construction jobs I see them working on, and take them to the local INS office (wherever that might be).

Very true. I've often thought about going and picking up a group of Illegals I see often standing, waiting to be picked up for the construction jobs I see them working on, and take them to the local INS office (wherever that might be).

Or you could start a manufacturing company and directly compete with China on labor costs.

Build the wall, it's our right to protect ourselves.

Screw the swiss cheese process being abused. I live here in Utah and it's a growing problem here as well. Folks coming in illegally then using the system without contributing.

Sorry, that is not the American Dream...

Fandros

Its honestly hard to call this. I am stationed in Southern California and as most know, there is a high concentration of Hispanics here. It would seem that its the Hispanic community taking this to heart the most out of the other multitude of ethnic groups. Granted there are abuses of the system in place, but there are alot of success stories that people forget about frequently. Housing here is astronomically high, and yet the Hispanic community thrives here. Many are homeowners in a part of the country where a double wide trailor on an 1/8 acre of land costs close to half a million dollars. These people work their asses off doing the work that many of the more established ethnic groups feel is beneath them, and turn it into thriving businesses. These businesses and services are so interwoven with the California economy, that cutting off the flow of illegals might actually cause major damage to the economy. Who knows how much produce would rot in the fields and translate into higher prices at the grocery store.

Now, unless you have Native American blood pulsing in your veins, you were part of some ethnic group who came here reguardless of whether the country greeted your ancestors with open arms or not. The Irish certainly did not get a warm welcome. Yet, they came in anyway, legal or not. There really is no way to stop it, and if you make laws in an isolationist fashion, enterprising people who operate outside of the law will find ways to make alot of money. Yes, there should be some encouragment to get these newcomers vested into the system sooner, but building a "wall" is not going to work. There has to be other solutions out there. With a real demand for salaries to actually go down in the US in order to globally compete and to assure there will be companies based in the US to actually employ people, perhaps that may change the view of some immigrants. The more immigrants come in, the broader the labor pool and ultimately salaries will go down reguardless. Some might feel staying put in Mexico is not such a bad thing, as the increases in quality of life may not be worth a major upheaval.

Build the wall, this is today not 200 years ago.

Make the paperwork/process easy and understandable, but stop the damn influx.

Read somewhere, can't recall where, but something like 50k felons crossed the boarder last year into the US. The stat might be off, but I do know it's a problem.

Fandros

The interesting thing is people are protesting saying that the immigrants have a right to a better life, I don't disagree with that. If the country that they are coming from is not offering them the opportunity to have a better life, shouldnt people be more pissed about that?

The interesting thing is people are protesting saying that the immigrants have a right to a better life, I don't disagree with that. If the country that they are coming from is not offering them the opportunity to have a better life, shouldnt people be more pissed about that?

No, Because the United States is the Root of all Evil. Even if it is offering you a better chance than you ever would have had in your native land.
Nothing say irony like protesting your living conditions against the country you are illegally living in.
Yep, must be America.

We do need a wall. We dont need to be isolationists though. We need to use the wall as a security filter. We need all borders to be secure, not just the one with Mexico. What we need to stop is the system by which immigrants come here (not naming any nationality), work under the table, use emergency rooms as clinics, abuse social services, flood our public schools with second language learners, continue to have more babies once they are here, and send half the money they make outside of the country. We need to allow immigration, but there needs to be a cost to it. Immigrants need to be able to choose to come here knowing full well they will have to pay their share of taxes. Please dont give me bs about how they do pay taxes because of sales tax. Yes, but the rest of us pay that and income tax so they still have an advantage.

The one thing that absolutely needs to change is the law that says that a baby born in the US is a citizen regardless if its parents are not. This is nothing more than an incentive for them to enter illegally and then procreate. This law is what drives this whole problem.

/agree Phel

Fandros

The one thing that absolutely needs to change is the law that says that a baby born in the US is a citizen regardless if its parents are not.
That's not a law. It's the Constitution.

That's not a law. It's the Constitution.

Which Amendment is that?

Anchor baby laws MUST be changed.

So I was browsing around and for some sad sad reason I stoped on the O'reilly Report and he had some guy on that was a member of the Border Angels or Something, and this guy was saying that people coming into this land illegal (Against American Law) were part of the American Dream.

I felt so dirty when I found myself nodding in agreement with O'reilly's (sp) view.

Which Amendment is that?


Amendment XIV, Section 1

(Google is your friend)

Amendment XIV, Section 1

(Google is your friend)

Well Done, But you know, you can't believe everything you find on the Internet. Espically if it paints George Bush in a positive light.

This guy makes sense to me...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11868622/#060327
As I've noted here before (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7133448/#050311), I'm in favor of pretty easy immigration -- my family includes immigrants from Nigeria. But they're legal immigrants, who jumped through numerous hoops to get here and who are, if anything, more unhappy with illegal immigration than most native-born Americans. If we're going to have open immigration, let's change the law, not achieve that end through failure to enforce the laws we have.
Still there are a few parts of the debate worth stressing:

It's not really about security: Even if we tighten up the border with Mexico immensely, it won't stop terrorists from sneaking through if they want to. And even if we could accomplish that impossible end, they could still come in other ways. As long as we have easy visas for Saudi citizens, worrying about the Mexican border seems silly.

It's only sort of about economics: President Bush likes to say that immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do. That's true, of course, but it's really more accurate to say that immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do at the wages businesses want to pay. In my area, for example, American-born drywallers make 5-7 dollars more an hour than illegal immigrants. They're willing to do the work, just not for what the contractors want to pay. But I've talked to many of them and they actually admire the Mexican workers, who work hard and support their families.

Where I hear resentment of illegal immigrants, it's not so much based on the idea of them taking American jobs. At the moment, at least, unemployment is very, very low so people aren't thinking that way as much as they might if there were a recession. Instead, the resentment is based on the idea that people who come here illegally feel entitled to demand that they be treated like Americans. It's the devaluing of citizenship, as much as the loss of jobs, that seems to upset most people at the moment.

A lot of it is anger at Washington: "We pay taxes, they say there's a war on terror, and they can't even secure the border." People don't necessarily expect perfection, but the powers that be don't even seem to be trying. That anger, I suspect, has a lot to do with the sudden interest of politicians in doing something -- or at least looking as if they're doing something -- about the issue.

The debate stinks: Most opponents of illegal immigration aren't racists. Most supporters aren't enemies of American civilization. The immigration problem is hard because it pits two things we care about -- freedom of opportunity and control of our borders -- against one another. It's also made harder because people fear that immigrants -- without the pressures of earlier eras -- won't try very hard to assimilate. Those fears may be overblown, but they're real, and the cries of racism, plus the occasional bit of Aztlan-irredentism from the fringes (calling for the reconquest of California, Arizona, etc., by Mexico), make them stronger.
It could be poison for both parties: The people organizing these rallies don't seem to care if they're bad for the Democrats. Maybe they won't be. More likely the organizers don't care, because even if they are, the organizers will wind up more powerful within the Party. There's a similar, if more diffuse, phenomenon in the GOP. But it's entirely possible that both parties will suffer in different ways if the debate gets overheated. Political debate in America is poisonous enough; this won't help. At any rate, stay tuned. It's likely to be a rocky ride.
It seems to me more to do about assimiliating into our society... so having a mass demonstration waving thousands of Mexican flags isn't doing much for your cause. I think they did more harm this weekend than good for whatever goals they hoped to attain.

Oh and the anchor baby amendment... correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that originally intended to be something like this: If either parent is here legally, then the baby is a citizen.

Making something legal out of one or more illegal acts in and of itself doesn't seem very lawful to me.

Wow.. Look at the bi-partisianship in this thread.. Cannot remember when most agreed on this forum...


One of the arguements that bugs the hell out of me is the "they do work that Americans do not want to do" piece. That is bullshit, and if they took welfare "american's" who feel they deserve better, and cut back the benefits, then they might want to do that job. Offer incentives saying if they pick that lettuce, they can have partial Welfare to compensate, but if they are not working at all.. then they have a cutoff date.

Build that wall....

Wow.. Look at the bi-partisianship in this thread.. Cannot remember when most agreed on this forum...

Build that wall....

So true. And I couldn't agree more.

When my brother took the legal steps to get married to his now wife it was nuts. (she is French) His lawyer even told him if she'd just enter illegally and marry him it would be allot easier than what they went through. Which was 5years and allot of $ and visits to some INS dude every so often to prove they were in love through pictures, phone bills, ticket stubs etc.

This crap makes me sick, I want a huge freaking wall that is so high no one can get over it except through a heavily guarded gate. I don't care about the melting pot, at some point one must maintain their national identity or they become someone elses.

I'm so sick of going back home to NC and seeing everything bi-lingual. So in a sense I can totally relate to Chirac.

If you want to come to this country, fine. But do it the right and legal way. The way that doesn't make things worse for everyone else b/c you choose the easy way and then come take handouts from us.

I have some definate gripes about immigrants. I live in southern California so you can guess which immigrants I am talking about. Yes, they do work hard when on the job making money. Why then do they not work hard at home? Their cars look like shit. Their houses (read:apartments) look like shit. Their clothes look like shit. Have you ever had to go to the emergency room at 2am? There is always half a dozen or more immigrants there for either a cold or something is wrong with one of their 5 babies. I live in mission viejo and there is no trash on the street. What do I see when I drive through santa ana (or lake forest unfortunately, for those of you who know the area). I see trash on the ground. I see houses falling apart, I see cars on the lawn. I would definately caracterize this as a fear of their lack or ability (or desire) to assimilate.

One side note. My wife is a second grade teacher. She has 20 students, 18 of which are called "second language learners." There has been some talk about having bilingual teachers in area where there are lots of esl students. The reality is that my wife speaks better spanish than these kids. Sometimes when she says something in english and they are totally confused, she will say it in spanish. Guess what? They dont understand spanish either. She has conferences with parents. They request an interpreter. The parents dont understand the interpreter. The whole thing is totally ridiculous.

having a mass demonstration waving thousands of Mexican flags isn't doing much for your cause. I think they did more harm this weekend than good for whatever goals they hoped to attain.

Completely agree. They were not showing a desire for inclusion as much as proving they are separate, waving anything other than the American flag while demonstrating immigration policies.

Phel that is just sad. What the hell are they speaking then?

I don't care about the melting pot, at some point one must maintain their national identity or they become someone elses.

hehe, I am surprised at your comments my pale friend ;).

The term "Melting Pot" means that a new entrant in the society leaves behind all that was their culture to take up the new culture that they have entered. New arrivals to the U.S. are "in essecne" supposed to give up their culture to become "an American". In reality this does not occur, at least for the 1st generation of immigrants, it does happen for the 2nd generation.

Go ahead and build a wall if it makes you feel better, as has been mentioned in other posts, entreprenuers are going to find different solutions to continue the activity that has perpetuated itself across your Southern border for decades.

There is really a bigger question here, that of world population and the movement of people across borders.

All countries in the world at some point in time are going to start having the same issues that Europe and America have been facing/ignoring for at least the last 40 years. As the world population swells, people as they always have, will migrate to different areas to seek better opportunities.

If America wants to solve their problem as they always do, with guns, violence and a sharad of "we are protecting the people" thats great, go ahead, you will just be isolating yourself EVEN MORE from the rest of the world.

If you want to solve your problem in a more progressive manner, start talking, start coming up with different alternatives and for Tunare sakes PLEASE start to take a more compassioante view on your relations with other peoples of the world.

The North American Aborignals, most of them nomads, first tried to accept Europeans into their culture, to work together when they were inundated with unknown immigrants. They did not build walls or put up defenses until they finally realized that the Europeans were hell bent on destroying them.

I hardly think a Hispanic mother of 3 who kills herself working 14 hours a day to try and give her kids a better life is hell bent on taking down the U.S.

Forcing people into a mold of what you think an U.S. citizen is supposed to be is absurd!

Accept different cultures, respect them as you would want others to respect yours and remember that change is constant, get used to it, its not going to change :).

Cheers,

As the world population swells, people as they always have, will migrate to different areas to seek better opportunities.


So, possibly sending more jobs to India will divert some of the potential immigrants as they head for Calcutta to seek a better life.

Or, taking a page from China's recent economic practices, we could start investing in some factories in African countries (or even South America/Mexico) to increase the standard of living in those communities, and establishing potential trading partners.

lokase is right tho, that people will always seek better opportunities. A reexamination of our spending could most likely reveal many opportunities to cut waste and divert to more long-term positive programs (example: if we are giving Israel 5 billion per year in aid, cut that to 2 billion - they are a much more financially healthy country now then when we started our aid - and take the extra 3 billion and invest in trade/job creation/etc). While I agree our borders need to be less porous, I also see the reality that a person with no prospects in his own country is more likely to try to get into ours; so, give him some prospects in his own. We already are giving ungodly amounts of aid to so many countries, there seems to be no reason we cannot tie it to specific programs. In the long run, it will be more economically feasible to help create employment opportunities in the immigrant's home country, than to keep seeking ways to prevent his illegal entry into our country. And, there is also the side benefit of a new source of trade.

Well we could give them all a bus ride to Canada. Lots of land to be had...Lokase the problem isn't that we dont want them here, we simply want them to follow the same process as lets say..some one coming from Sweden, India or Japan would have to do. Not illegally enter a country and expect all the same benefits and rewards those who already have their citizenship from hard work. Hell Canada doesn't even you let you in if you have a drunk driving ....please.

I am sick to death of illegals coming to this contry to have a child. Boom! US citizen and a whole slew of free services instantly! Who pays for it? Me!!!! No thanks! I do not want to pay for Jesus Wetback's welfare payments, medical bills, food stamps, et al just because he bobbed his way accros the Reo Grande. Had he come to this nation properly with the proper documentation, hell i'd give him a ride to help him look for that nice job. We must strenghten penalties for being an illegal. We must build a wall to keep out illegals who do not want to emigrate to this nation properly. We must change achor baby laws so that a person who is not documented properly can not have a baby and instantly be dependent on US aid (i.e..my aid). Besides they send billions back to mexico each year. Money that could and should be kept in nation. Not to mention crime rates. How many people come here shoot a cop or break a law and end up in prison? Trust me, many. Please do not think I just mean Mexicans. This goes for anyone from any nation. And of cuorse i'm sure some people will think me racist. Why am I a racist because I want people to follow the law? Last thing. Do not use the "immigrants do the job Americans won't". Bull crap. Maybe employeers might have to raise wages to fill that job with an American and pass the cost on, well i'm more then fine with that. I hope like hell Tancredo runs for President...

All this and just to find the Judiciary weakend the immigration bill last night. I am sickened.

It is possible that if the energy being expended on the Gay Marriage issue was instead used on the XIVth Amendment, and a serious attempt to amend it to disallow citizenship to those born on U.S. soil to parents here illegally, there might possibly be a more bi-partisan effort to get the states to vote for ratification.

Talk of changing the laws comes easy, but the fact is changing the Constitution is a detailed procedure that will take a matter of several years. As we have seen in the last couple years, divisive issues like the gay marriage one result in nothing getting done due to the partisan bickering; if we are going to be able to see any progress in changing the Constitution to preclude the blanket granting of citizenship to newborns, there will need to be a massive grass roots effort to focus both the House and Senate on the issue.

I will not be holding my breath on this one, in this climate of divisive animosity.

Oh yeah. McCain in 2008. :cool:

But wait!, NAFTA and the FTAA will fix all that right? and provide good jobs in mexico and raise the stantard of living there and then manufacturers will be able to pass all those savings back to the U.S. consumer!
now about that waterfront property in South Dakota i have for sale:p
Sadly OSG you have it all wrong it's not Jesus who's going on the welfare dole. it's his little wifey who claims to be in the mean ol'U.S. all alone who signs up, then lies about the fact that Jesus live with her much less is even in the U.S.
Once the little missus is on housing,medical,foodstamps and a cash grant Jesus can work those lower paying jobs and still come out ahead of most tax paying citizens. it's amazing how far your money can go once you dont have all those pesky bills like rent.
As a single parent who never took a dime of welfare i was for awhile forced to live in a less than ideal area (ok yes it was pretty much a slum) and saw this happening as the norm more than the exception. also should point out this isnt just the mexicans doing this the Arabics who lived there where far bigger scam artists and govermental rip-offs than most the mexicans can even imagine.

Not a Republican but I have alot of respect for Mccain and will probably vote for him to

The term "Melting Pot" means that a new entrant in the society leaves behind all that was their culture to take up the new culture that they have entered. New arrivals to the U.S. are "in essecne" supposed to give up their culture to become "an American". In reality this does not occur, at least for the 1st generation of immigrants, it does happen for the 2nd generation.

It only happens in the 2nd generation, if they are exposed to the larger culture. When they stay in a subculture of bilingualism, it is harder for them to assimilate to the larger culture, and become more productive.

Go ahead and build a wall if it makes you feel better, as has been mentioned in other posts, entreprenuers are going to find different solutions to continue the activity that has perpetuated itself across your Southern border for decades.

Well if we had a wall, and added LANDMINES, I'm sure that would act as a deterrent. Incidentally, what sort of message does it send when we have "waystations" in the desert stocked with water and diapers. Maybe a giant WELCOME mat on the border would be more appropriate?

There is really a bigger question here, that of world population and the movement of people across borders.

All countries in the world at some point in time are going to start having the same issues that Europe and America have been facing/ignoring for at least the last 40 years. As the world population swells, people as they always have, will migrate to different areas to seek better opportunities.

If America wants to solve their problem as they always do, with guns, violence and a sharad of "we are protecting the people" thats great, go ahead, you will just be isolating yourself EVEN MORE from the rest of the world.

We've never had a problem with people coming to the US to seek better opportunities, provided they do it in a legal manner. What is at stake here is not trying to keep people from coming here, but trying to keep people from coming here illegally. The only people that would be coming here illegally, would be people we wouldn't want to come, and would be denied entry if they used the legal process, I.E. Rapists, Murderers, ect. Why not use the legal means to gain entry? You'd get better pay, more rights, but you would have to pay taxes. :confused:

If you want to solve your problem in a more progressive manner, start talking, start coming up with different alternatives and for Tunare sakes PLEASE start to take a more compassioante view on your relations with other peoples of the world.

So lets talk about the issue, while the ticks suck all of the blood out of the dog.
Imagine the U.S as a dog, and Illegal Immigrants as ticks, and you get the idea.
1 tick won't kill a dog, but 10 million could.

The North American Aborignals, most of them nomads, first tried to accept Europeans into their culture, to work together when they were inundated with unknown immigrants. They did not build walls or put up defenses until they finally realized that the Europeans were hell bent on destroying them.

Actually, as peaceful as that sounds, the first meetings between the Europeans and The North American Aborignals were anything but.
If you look back at what happened with an unbiased eye, you'll see there were misunderstandings from both sides. I don't deny that the The North American Aborignals were not treated fairly, but in many instances, they gave as well at they got.

I hardly think a Hispanic mother of 3 who kills herself working 14 hours a day to try and give her kids a better life is hell bent on taking down the U.S.

Please see my Tick reference above.

Forcing people into a mold of what you think an U.S. citizen is supposed to be is absurd!

Accept different cultures, respect them as you would want others to respect yours and remember that change is constant, get used to it, its not going to change :)..

So we should let anyone who wants to come in, to come on in, without checking out who they are, or what they were doing in thier country of origin? They shouldn't have basic English skills? We should allow people who have a hatred for our country in, because it's part of their culture and we should respect that?
I know you mean well, but its a bit of "pie in the sky" that right now we can't afford.
That line of thinking is fine when we are all holding hands and singing Coom-bye-yah.
I'll direct your attention to the videos of Nick berg and Daniel Pearl being beheaded in case you have forgotten what is at stake here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Berg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pearl

Now imagine that happening to every man, woman, and child who does not believe in their version of Islam.
Imagine it happening to someone in your family, your brother or mother, perhaps.
Now maybe you can see why we just want to know who is coming to America for "better opportunities".
If they want "better opportunities" for themselves, and become part of our society, then more power to them.
If they want "better opportunities" to kill Americans, then no thanks.

Lokase --

I've known you for many years now and while I agree with much of your Hippy Canadian doctrine I DO NOT agree with letting illegals keep coming to our country and erasing our identity, straining our economic system, and killing our education system.

I have NO problem, ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH issue with someone entering this country legally. My sister in law did and others can too. I am happy for those seeking a better life who follow the guidelines and rules. It's the thousands and thousands who try to enter illegally every day that piss me off. I am compassionate person and I used to feel differently on this subject but after witnessing it first hand for a few years my view points have begun to change.

I have seen my hometown in NC become almost slumlike b/c of the influx of illegals and migrant workers who do not care for themselves or anyone around them. They junk up neighborhoods not with graffiti but with trash. HOUSEHOLD trash, dirty diapers, beer cans, cigarette butts you name it. THEY DON'T CARE. They crowd sometimes 10-12 people into a one or two bedroom apartment. They party, they drink, they make all sorts of noise and the crime rates in my small town of barely 6,000 people has increased 10 fold. Oh sure this wouldn't be an issue if it only happened in ONE place but it's happening EVERYWHERE!

There are places in THIS country that make you feel like you're not in THIS country. What do I mean? Road signs, store signs, and the people all speak Spanish.

The melting pot stopped being a melting pot when these people decided to not integrate but force us to take on their ways.

Don't give me that compassionate bullshit, live here for a while. Some of your views might change too if your $$$ was constantly going to these people who take and take and take and take and then just trash and junk up your towns.

If I had a pickup truck I'd go and find those guys standing on the corner for work and I'd tell them I needed them to work for me. I'd then drive as fast as I could to INS and honk my horn to tell them I had a bunch of illegals to do something!!!!!

with letting illegals keep coming to our country and erasing our identity
The erasing and recreation of national identity is a result of migration/immigration Fildien. One's "National Identity" is not set in stone and will change overtime. If you think the culture of the U.S. will stay stagnet in the form it is now (or 10-15 years ago) then you are in for a rude awakening my friend.

Don't think the U.S. is the only country with illegal immigration on their hands. Most of Europe has been going through these same issues for a long time. Canada, yes Canada has a certain subset of illegals, mostly asians who crowd into 1 bedroom apartments in our major cities and who perform some of the same menial tasks that illegals in your country do.

I can understand your attitude toward illegals in your country, but can you understand the illegals, most of what I read here indicates that many of you don't.

Have any of you been throught the immigration process to ANY other 1st world country?

Here are a couple of things you will need:

- a passport or legally sanctioned identification that the target country will accept.

- a lawyer for the mountains of documents you are going to have to sift through, and trust me its a mountain. All of the documents are usually not in your mother tounge so that makes it about 100% more difficult as well.

- a doctor for a medical examination, or 2 or 3.

- money. money to pay for your passport, money to pay for your lawyer, money to pay for your doctor, money, money, money.

- Most of the time through legal channels you can only bring a certain number of your family with you as you immigrate. You are a mother of 5 and you want to immigrate and the target country says, sorry, we can only have 4 family members total come to our country, what are you going to do? leave 2 children behind?

Immigration is an extremly complicated, expensive and long process. It is no wonder why SO MANY people decide to take the illegal route. They either cannot deal with the complexity of the situation or more than likely they cannot afford it.

Which brings me to one other point. The U.S. is one of the most wealthy nations on earth. You have sucked up so much wealth from around the world that some countries really can't even come close to competing. Hell, California has a bigger GDP than most of the thrid world countries put together.

Do you blame people for being attracked to that kind of market, the kinds of opportunity that exist and the potential for making their lives better?

Legal and illegal DOES NOT cross the immigrants mind when they have made the decision to make the move. The only thing that concerns them is how, when, and whose palm do I have to grease so that I can pile into an overcrowed vehicle (car, van, boat, etc.) for the perilous journey.

As for how the immigrants act when they arrive in your country relies a big part on how you treat them. I am sure they are just living in the same manner that they have always lived, just in a different country. If you want to change the way they act Fild then you should have programs setup to help them integrate (I hate the word assimilate).

But since they are illegals you don't setup programs to help them, you ignore them, you pretend that the "problem" doesn't exist or that the government will deal with it somehow.... so they just keep on living the way they always have.

Acknowledge the fact that these people are not leaving, get your communities involved to either help them or to help them help themselves and you will see changes.

If you don't teach your immigrants how to act in your country, if you don't have community outreach to them, if you don't make an effort to get them to help themselves then they will just keep on living the way they always have, which for the most part is very normal for them, its just not normal for you.

Immigrants are people, they just look a bit different and sound a bit different. They want the same things you do, open up your communities and you will be amazed at the result. Keep your communties closed to them and you get what you deserve.

And Fild, not all Canadians support the "Hippy Canadian doctrine" that I usually side with. We have the same proportion of people in this country that are opposed to immigration and other progressive issues, the difference is our government does not succumb to their pressures to make Canada a closed community.


Cheers,

You simply do not have the comprehension of what an illegal immigrant and a legal immigrant are.


open up your communities and you will be amazed at the result

We have to 11 million Illegal immigrants. What do we get? A serious problem on our health system, powerful DEADLY gangs, lower wages, drugs ...many many drugs come through Mexico via illegal immigrant.

Keep smoking that legal weed and trying to paint this simple black and white picture. Canadians sure are a different breed I tell ya.

The erasing and recreation of national identity is a result of migration/immigration Fildien. One's "National Identity" is not set in stone and will change overtime. If you think the culture of the U.S. will stay stagnet in the form it is now (or 10-15 years ago) then you are in for a rude awakening my friend.

So we should just accept that fact that we will soon become "Northern Mexico"?
Sorry, I just don't subscribe to that. While I agree that we should do something to help people Intergrate (since that word doesn't offend you), we do have a "National Identity" We have had 1 since the inception of this country and our founding fathers.
The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave, aren't just words. They are words that describe our "National Identity".
These words describe all Americans, regardless of the era they live in.
What we have now is an influx of people that have no regard for either being free, nor brave.

Don't think the U.S. is the only country with illegal immigration on their hands. Most of Europe has been going through these same issues for a long time. Canada, yes Canada has a certain subset of illegals, mostly asians who crowd into 1 bedroom apartments in our major cities and who perform some of the same menial tasks that illegals in your country do.

Do they also put upon the system designed to help keep the members of your country from becoming destitute?

I can understand your attitude toward illegals in your country, but can you understand the illegals, most of what I read here indicates that many of you don't.

I know what I see. While I cannot judge the content of another man's heart, I can judge their actions. What I see, them waving the flags of thier point of origin in protest to the way they are treated in the country they illegally reside in, does nothing to make me feel sympathy for them.

Have any of you been throught the immigration process to ANY other 1st world country?

Here are a couple of things you will need:

- a passport or legally sanctioned identification that the target country will accept.

- a lawyer for the mountains of documents you are going to have to sift through, and trust me its a mountain. All of the documents are usually not in your mother tounge so that makes it about 100% more difficult as well.

- a doctor for a medical examination, or 2 or 3.

- money. money to pay for your passport, money to pay for your lawyer, money to pay for your doctor, money, money, money.

- Most of the time through legal channels you can only bring a certain number of your family with you as you immigrate. You are a mother of 5 and you want to immigrate and the target country says, sorry, we can only have 4 family members total come to our country, what are you going to do? leave 2 children behind?

Immigration is an extremly complicated, expensive and long process. It is no wonder why SO MANY people decide to take the illegal route. They either cannot deal with the complexity of the situation or more than likely they cannot afford it.

Get a passport, or a legal ID card, learn the Language, get the Medical Exam(however many are needed), make sure you have some cash to pay for it, and if you have an extended family, have them apply on their own.
Immigration is extremely complicated, expensive and a long process for a reason. It's not to be mean, it's to make sure that people that want to come here are the kind of people that will contribute to society, not live off of it like a tick does a dog.

Which brings me to one other point. The U.S. is one of the most wealthy nations on earth. You have sucked up so much wealth from around the world that some countries really can't even come close to competing. Hell, California has a bigger GDP than most of the thrid world countries put together.

Do you blame people for being attracked to that kind of market, the kinds of opportunity that exist and the potential for making their lives better?

Your contention that the U.S. Sucks up wealth from other parts of the world is falecious in the least. We manufacture our wealth, believe it or not. That means the 8+ hours a day that many Americans work, they are actually manufacturing wealth. Some acquisitions from other countries do take place in the form of trade, but if we were aquiring wealth with nothing in return, there would be hell to pay.
And no I don't blame people for wanting to come here to be a part of that. But Illegals are not being a part of the system, they are apart from the system.

Legal and illegal DOES NOT cross the immigrants mind when they have made the decision to make the move. The only thing that concerns them is how, when, and whose palm do I have to grease so that I can pile into an overcrowed vehicle (car, van, boat, etc.) for the perilous journey.

I thought they were poor, and that was 1 of the factors in them not coming here legally? Regardless, I have very little sympathy for the conditions they have to endure to get here if they do it in an illegal manner.-

As for how the immigrants act when they arrive in your country relies a big part on how you treat them. I am sure they are just living in the same manner that they have always lived, just in a different country. If you want to change the way they act Fild then you should have programs setup to help them integrate (I hate the word assimilate).

But since they are illegals you don't setup programs to help them, you ignore them, you pretend that the "problem" doesn't exist or that the government will deal with it somehow.... so they just keep on living the way they always have.

Acknowledge the fact that these people are not leaving, get your communities involved to either help them or to help them help themselves and you will see changes.

If you don't teach your immigrants how to act in your country, if you don't have community outreach to them, if you don't make an effort to get them to help themselves then they will just keep on living the way they always have, which for the most part is very normal for them, its just not normal for you.

Immigrants are people, they just look a bit different and sound a bit different. They want the same things you do, open up your communities and you will be amazed at the result. Keep your communties closed to them and you get what you deserve.

No issues with anything you have written, except the fact you are ignoring the point of them being illegal, and perhaps this also has something to do with the way they behave?
I agree that Immigrants should be welcomed.
As for Illegal Immigrants, I also want to help them. Back to their point of Origin.

Bahahahahahahahahahahaha

First, I have experienced full well first hand what our immigration system is like. My sister in law was arrested and deported in 1995. She was held in a containment facility in Atlanta Ga after her student had expired and she and my brother had gone to INS to try to renew it. They immediately handcuffed her and took her to another part of INS.

My brother called me I was in college in NC. I called Senator Helm's office in Raleigh who got me in touch with a immigration attorney in Atlanta. This attorney got MiMi and my brother on track. Sure MiMi got deported and couldn't come to the US for 5 years while the process was taking place but my brother as well as us could visit her and we did.

Don't give me the bull about not experiecing our system. I know full well what it's like, complete to standing before some INS judge backing their relationship so she could come to the US. The fact is, she did it, he did it. The rest should do it.

I help those who help themselves, you sound out of touch my friend. Come visit me some day in PA and I will take you to my hometown and to places in GA and Fla that are no longer what they once were.

This country spends too much time in other parts of the world fighting others causes we should fix the issues at home starting with the illegals who use our Emergency Rooms as their personal doctor's office. The health system I work for is a not for profit agency. We lose 50 Million dollars a year to free care because we turn no one away. Recently we opened up a separate facility for these indigent people to use because those with REAL emergencies weren't being seen in the proper amount of time.

I used to sound like you Lokase. Then I felt first hand what these issues do the systems. Have you ever read anything by Terry Goodkind, specifically the Sword of Truth series? If not, I'll summarize, he talks about the Imperial Order you sound like someone who has been sucked into it.

Funny how some say English is the language of the business world yet in many stores in the US English is a second language.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/14206421.htm

Wow, looks like it was all staged.

We built a fence to stop Africans from entering European territory, but they still try to jump over it, and then they whine that they get hurt....

http://www.all4all.org/2005/10/2141.shtml

http://www.all4all.org/images/2005/10/2147.jpg

I'd love to see that on the Southern Border.

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/michellemalkin/2006/03/29/191685.html
Here's another viewpoint.

We built a fence to stop Africans from entering European territory, but they still try to jump over it, and then they whine that they get hurt....

http://www.all4all.org/2005/10/2141.shtml

http://www.all4all.org/images/2005/10/2147.jpg

I'd donate healthily for something like that on our Southern border :D

Hmmmm Canada does have open wide area of nonpopulated land. I say build a tunnel under the US directly to Canada from Mexico.

It'd take longer but the resulting change in canadian opinions would be the same...

Fandros

Hmmmm Canada does have open wide area of nonpopulated land. I say build a tunnel under the US directly to Canada from Mexico.

It'd take longer but the resulting change in canadian opinions would be the same...

Fandros

I dunno Fanny....I see alot of open land in Utah. :D

Your contention that the U.S. Sucks up wealth from other parts of the world is falecious in the least. We manufacture our wealth, believe it or not. That means the 8+ hours a day that many Americans work, they are actually manufacturing wealth. Some acquisitions from other countries do take place in the form of trade, but if we were aquiring wealth with nothing in return, there would be hell to pay.

Take the blinders off Sixee, the U.S. has its hand in most of the economies around the world, for good or bad.


This country spends too much time in other parts of the world fighting others causes we should fix the issues at home
I couldn't agree with you more Fild.


The main direction I am going with this argument is that mass immigration (illegal or legal) will keep increasing, unless a world wide epidemic or war starts up and dwindles down the human population.

How a country deals with these immigration issues will determine how that country is treated in turn by the world.

It seems the U.S. only has one solution. Buy guns, put up a fence and shot any mother#*(#$ who crosses it.

Instead of your government thinking with its holster, why don't you start thinking with your brains and/or hearts. There are ways to deal with the problem other than putting up barriers.

You seriously think the U.S. is going to extradite 11 million illegals? In theory, though harsh, it sounds simple, pack em up on a bus and send em home, in practice you would have a small uprising on your hands. When poor under-privileged people have their backs against the wall they tend to lash out instead of going quietly.

I understand the burden these people are putting on the average tax payer but I put this forward, your current foreign debt posses a much more lethal burden upon the average tax payer than your illegals.

If you start to work with these illegals you may find that solutions will start presenting themselves. If you keep on grinding them into the ground and pretending to be a class above them the problem will persist and only worsen.

Your country has some important decisions to make on this subject. Will you extend an olvie branch or will you continue to divide the world into "with us, or against us"?

Cheers,

Take the blinders off Sixee, the U.S. has its hand in most of the economies around the world, for good or bad.

How do we suck in money from anything like this?
And how can I get a piece of it? :confused:

So your suggestion is just to accept the Illegals into our country, with open arms.
Why have rules, then? Why have borders? Why not just be 1 big happy family?

Actually many European countries's birth rates are not matching their deaths. This is predicted to be true in the ole US within 50 years. Doesn't mean we want , nor does the Europeans, want an influx of folks that seek to recreate the world that failed them before. Their worlds didn't work for them and that's why they left, time to adapt or move the hell back.

No Canadian in their right mind speaks up against the US. Their like the crazy aunt that lives in the apartment above our garage. Adding lil to the welfare of the home/yard/neighborhood but the product she grows out of her illicit garden.

Yes the US has it's hands in the global economy...omg so smert!! But it's a driving force, and as important to said economy as any conglamoration of other countries aggragate wealth.

Fandros

Actually many European countries's birth rates are not matching their deaths. Any supporting data? I don't dispute the claim, but I've heard it several times without ever seeing justification. Merely curious.

I'm trying to find a good link for ya Thor. Like you I've heard this bandied about by several sources.

Fandros

Interesting maps...

http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/worldmapper/
http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/worldmapper/thumbnails/mapindex13-24.html

Just a quick glance, the US population in terms of ratio to world population appears to be reduced by 2050, but regains it out by 2300.

But considering the net immigration map looks like this...

http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/worldmapper/images/smallpng/17.png

... the country (and world) is going to be remarkably different by then.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/27/world/main546441.shtml

Here ya go Thor, it's a bit of info on the European birth rate.

Fandros

Linking to CBS? Your soul is at risk! ;)... the country (and world) is going to be remarkably different by then.
Remarkably submerged, in many places. Given rapid changes, extrapolating to 2300 seems fraught with uncertainty, but no doubt it will be a whole different environment (by every definition) than we have now.

Thanks for the links.

Bah, told you long ago I read all sites. ;P Far too many of you on the left for me to support ya tho.


Fandros

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/14206421.htm

Wow, looks like it was all staged.As in...stage a protest? Of course it was staged.

Interestingly Piolin states over and over on his show and on interviews that protestors should wear white and carry American flags - that's a protest I can almost agree with, or at least sympathize with. The protesters on TV last night were being arrested for drunken misconduct, narcotics posession, violence, disrupting traffic... I also noticed that the majority seem to be switching to Mexican flags now.

The news last night interviewed several students who were walking out of class (cheers to Phoenix School District, who I don't work for - they claim to actually be taking disciplinary action against this kind of nonsense, and told students they'll recieve a 0 score on any assignments they miss). The students completely don't understand the protest - they were making comments about how this was to kick out all latinos, or it is just anti-Mexican, and nonsense like that. All wearing Mexican flags.

I hope this is a real wakeup for our government. People in the Southwest have been trying to draw attention to this for decades. This is what happens when a problem is ignored.

God I hope Tancredo runs. He has my vote now! Huh and he is from Colorado as well. A great great man obviously. He gets it right.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12017855/site/newsweek/

Wow, those Minutemen Volunteers sure do look scary. The way the Media had them portrayed, I thought they had built bunkers, and had semi-automatic rifles.

KR has a little piece (http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/14216433.htm) on economic studies of immigration. Long story short, immigration benefits the US, but its drawbacks leave the net effect a wash (or, at best, a mild net positive). The article doesn't delve into how a removal of illegals (if such a thing were possible) would affect poor or lower middle class citizens, but it does comment on the competition between immigrants and high school dropouts for cheap labor jobs. Good little read.

The way the Media had them portrayed, I thought they had built bunkers, and had semi-automatic rifles.

Please point out a few media portrayals that show them to be anything but a some wackjobs with pickups and rifles.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/Mag/060403_Issue/060325_ImmigMinutemen_vl.standard.jpg

No pickups or Rifles in this picture.
And the guy doesn't seem too whack. I mean he brought a tent and everything.

Umm...nice pic...not sure it really lays to rest the "whack job" label, but anyways...

The answer is not more border patrol, it's not a giant fricken wall, it's all about services.

- Don't give them free health care...especially when they come up from Mexico just to get procedures done...I've talked about the ethical problems here, not sure what can be done.

- Make them register their cars, carry insurance and be tested in order to be allowed to drive here.

- Don't provide free schooling for their kids....or at least nonlingual, I mean bilingual services.

- Edit the law that allows for anchor babies by requiring at least one parent be naturalized.

- This ones a bit out there but...make them accountable for crimes they commit and instead of cluttering more jails, and costing us more $$, have 'em build Fords (or whatever). ;)

They will eventually not want to come here in the current numbers and we can start naturalizing those that want to live here as Americans (as opposed to Mexicans living in America).

No pickups or Rifles in this picture.

So there's not even a gun? So your earlier statement about how the media was portraying them was completely false, I suppose.

So there's not even a gun? So your earlier statement about how the media was portraying them was completely false, I suppose.

No, when the story about them came out, all I heard was how these Rifle toting, rednecks were taking pop shots at Illegals crossing the border from the Media.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=571

http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2005/07/109906.shtml

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=329bbef27b902112e6d98 82d04b74ddf

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/05/08/INGFACJHK31.DTL&hw=minuteman&sn=008&sc=373

But that picture of the guy just sitting there seemed to go against all that.

I didn't help that our president called them vigilantes.

I suppose I've waited too long to chime in, much has been said and ground into the dirt already. Well, here's my two nickels worth anyway.

Who's coming across our border from Mexico? Mostly Mexicans. Yeah, go figgur. These people that are flooding across our borders aren't rich merchants looking to set up shop in our towns. They're poor, very, very poor. They have no way of making a living in Mexico and only a few more ways in America.

Take a moment to put yourself in that place. No money, no food, no water and no birth certificate/ID. Imagine the trouble you'd have getting a work visa. You have to be able to prove who you are, right? Meanwhile, you're hungry and thirsty and there's the border.

If I was in that situation, I'd be on the ground running for the USA and take my chances.

So we have a problem. Drain on the healthcare system. Uninsured drivers, loud stereos playing bonk-a-donk music, trashy streets, broken down cars and second languages. We have more than Mexicans that fit that bill.

We all came here from somewhere. It hasn't always been so difficult to get citizenship either. How'd the African slaves become citizens? They didn't have any freekin' ID. What about the Italians, or the Irish, or the Dutch? What about the Veitnamese, Mongs, and Laotians?

It's all fine and good if you have some kind of ID system in place where you come from and people can obtain birth certificates for their children. Otherwise, it's time to hoof it, jump on an innertube, or sell everything you have, ride in a tanker and take your chances.

What's the solution? A wall? Maybe. What if we decide that we simply don't want any of them now? They must all go home. 11 million people, every last one of them. We pay $10 for a head of lettuce and smile. Only, they're spread out through all our nations cities and towns. You think we have a problem with Osama and his crew? The illegals have a larger army in place, they'll loose, but it'll hurt.

I believe I've said it before, give the workers, the ones in the fields temperary work visas. Get employer sponsorship for identities. Yeah, Poncho Rodriguez has been picking tomatos and lettuce for me for 6 months or a year. I say he's Poncho. He shall be PONCHO! Finger prints and signature. Now we have a documented worker.

No temp visas for folks on welfare. Give them a sandwich and send them home. That or get to work in the fields. Get your temperary work visa and bada-bing!

If you're a criminal we tattoo a target on your forehead. We see you running back in...CCB.

Also, more to the origonal topic, children skipping school to demonstrate. There's an accepted way to protest, they did not follow it. Niether did the adults. Get a permit, demonstrate.

They all should suffer any penalties incurred. Lost jobs, lost credits, detention or suspension depending on the severity. Make a choice, live with the results.

IMO, the US needs to regain control of it's own borders and the makeup of it's own population. We don't need more gang members, drug smugglers or other criminal elements coming into the country, no matter how deprived they are in their home countries.

We should drastically increase the legal immigration quota for latin America and some other countries around the world and make it less expensive to legally immigrate. This would allow desirable immigrants a better way to get here and become productive members of society. A guest worker program would be of help as well for those who don't plan on becoming Americans but can help fill a labor niche we need.

Illegal entry should be heavily discouraged and made a more expensive alternative than legal immigration. Build the wall if necessary and stem the flow of undocumented people into the US by any means we can short of killing people. Crack down hard on employers utilizing undocumented workers to save a buck. We have a lot of underemployed people of our own who should be given first crack at those jobs as a means of getting off the dole.

We should redirect much of our foreign aid to help Mexico develop it's own non-drug related economy and help remove as much of the income disparity as we can. With better opportunities within Mexico, the economic pressure to slip into the US should decrease. Shift our oil imports from unfriendly shores like the middle east or Venezuela to Mexico to help them. Give them every incentive we can to curb their rampant corruption problem and help them regain control of their own country from the narcotics cartels.

At least, that is what I would advocate.

Any supporting data? I don't dispute the claim, but I've heard it several times without ever seeing justification. Merely curious.

Thought you might like this feature on BBC News World Service. I think the replacement ratio is 2.1 children per woman.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4837422.stm

All good suggestions.
The only problem I have with Tranzure's suggestion is that making them documented, rewards the illegal behavior.
How many more will that invite to do the same illegal behavior?
And the target thing is priceless. I'd back it up with land mines on the border.

I didn't take the time to read all the posts unfortunately. But I have just gone through the visa process to move to America, a few years ago I went through the same thing for my husband to move here, Sweden, from America... The paperwork that is required for the american visa is insane, I've never seen so many hard to comprehend papers in my life. It's also very expensive. The entire cost for me to get my american visa ends up around 1000dollars, to get my husband here it was 20 dollars.

The amount of papers to fill out for him to move here was one each and one interview each. The papers for me to move there (keep in mind that I'm doing the easiest way of visa process to get into the US, the spousal visa through direct consular filing) was, good lord... about 26-30 papers and two interviews. The help from the american embassy was extremely good, they were easy to deal with and extremely nice. The contact we had with swedish migrations when he moved here was horrible... really horrible, the swedish consulate in Minneapolis however was very nice.

My point is, America has the same rules for every person that attempts to get into America, everyone has to go through the same long, expensive process (Well I would guess that asylum seekers go through a different route). There is absolutely no differense made in where you are from when it comes to what information you have to gather and what you have to do. I must admit I couldn't keep myself from laughing during the medical exam when the doctor asked me if I had or had ever suffered from lepracy (sp), along with asking me if I had ever had a heart attack (being a 25 year old female).

I would have to say that your system is very liberal in the way it views people, even if it is in a way "everyones guilty until proven innocent" it's the same for everyone. I had to do the chest xrays for TBC just like the russian mailorder wives do.

The paperwork is however extremely hard to comprehend, I do consider myself fluent in english but those papers... some of them both me and the hubby just stared at and basically reached a conclusion on what we thought they were about. But I don't think the hard to understand paperwork is what's keeping those people from applying for it. The financial aspect would be more like it.

What these people are doing is what people did back in the day, came from nothing searching for everything but having nothing to start with in America. Trying to start a new life for themselves unfortunately the illegal way. Being from a country that only grows in population due to how many imigrants we take in, which is alot, I have ill-feelings to begin with against illegal immigration.

To get rid off the illegal immigrants in America would most definately be a transition period when the workfoce was being redivided. Give it a few years atleast for things to get back to normal. I can see why a government would be afraid of that, who wants to take on a few years of chaos? I mean that surely doesn't get you re-elected. People do not like to think longterm.

And btw, it's no longer the INS that checks greencards and the likes according to the papers I have from the embassy it's the department of homeland security.

Glad you posted your story Izola wanted to hear from someone who has experience both ways. Either way you had to work hard and put effort into coming to America legally which is extremely difficuly but then again nothing is easy.

the swedish consulate in Minneapolis however was very nice.


Well now, both of my Grandparents came from Sweden, and I grew up in Minneapolis, so I already have some affection for Izola and her husband. Was quite an ordeal it sounds like, and glad to have heard from someone who experienced it.

After my Grandfather's death, my Grandmother used to divide her time between Sweden and America, and she used to have plenty of stories about "those damn immigrants". Keeping in mind that she was a kid during World War I, and had seen much of the European population shifts due to wars and political b.s., I always took the time to listen and do my dutiful "there, there, it will get better" stuff. Wish I had paid more attention and asked more questions now, to have another perspective on the impacts on a society other than our own here.

I know I plan on writing to both of my state Senators and raising the issue of revisiting the 14th Amendment and it's citizenship clause for ALL newborns.

Bylimet - there are some amazingly good movies made about Swedish imigrants back in the day who went up to live near Stillwater. I would bet the Swedish american institute in Minneapolis has them. They're based on diaries and the likes of real imigrants from the day. In swedish they're called Utvandrarna and Nybyggarna. They are available with english text here so I'd be very surprised if the institute doesn't have them.


As for visas and the likes I have to say I'm glad America has it that way and I would have liked it if the Swedish one was more like it. When you have to put time and effort into it it makes you think twice. The Swedish visas takes longer just because of how many people they have applying. The waiting time here is between 8-24 months. Was reading about a man who was trying to get his wife here from Cuba and they had been waiting 36 months for an answer, still nothing. As I recall the overall waiting time for an american visa is 18 months (it depends on which service central is used but I call that as the overall time). However the thing I did, direct consular filing, is quick as heck thanks to the embassy here being quick. It took almost 3 months for me and that was simply because I was dragging it. I didn't need to be quick. Otherwise I could have had it all done in a month.

What you'd need (in my opinion) is a president that's ready to be hated and not get to serve a second term that would dig into the whole illegal immigrants deal and start to put some effort into it. But I surely wouldn't want to be that person, money will be lost, people will be pissed as hell. Seriously I don't believe it's financially possible at this point to do it.

I think we're really dealing with a couple of different problems here, under the same umbrella issue. You have immegrants who just want to work and are simply honest, normal folks. Of those you have some who are sending money back to Mexico and don't want to live here permanantly, then you have those who do want to stay. You have some that are taking advantage of the system. You have a smaller percentage who are criminals. When discussing problems or solutions our politicians can't seem to figure out who they're addressing.

Our big issue is that our government won't take a firm stance on anything for fear they'll lose votes. What we need is a solid position, doesn't really matter what it is, to solve the problem. Firm position - close the boarder, build a wall, and maintian it. Now everyone believes that you're serious.

Or, firm position - just open the damn boarder and make it a safer, easier crossing. Brace the country to deal with this.

Or anything else that's decisive. Instead we've ignored the problem with lots of halfway solutions that don't actually do anything and are not enforced, then we look shocked when things don't go right and we have 500,000 people marching in the streets.

Another big protest is planned for this week or next, I believe.

Thought this was kind of cute...a bit exaggerated but funny:

MR. PRESIDENT, I'M HEADED TO MEXICO

David M. Bresnahan
April 1, 2006
NewsWithViews.com

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and
I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border
from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know
you can help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration
quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do
here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm
on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the
following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need,
whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag
pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access
to government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort
to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from
Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers
speak English.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on
my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any
complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and
donâ?Tt enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and
never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place
on
the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things
for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres.
Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail
hunting with your V.P.




Thank you so much for your kind help.
Sincerely,
David M. Bresnahan

LOL, if it were only exaggerated even just a little.

:eek:

Although I support migration for farm workers, I still think that if they want to live the American dream (providing a better life for them and their families) they should learn to speak English. Everyone else did, including my immigrant ancestors.

I can speak a little Spanish (Spanglish as it were), but I will only e'speak espanish if I'm spoken to in English first. Then I'll play around a little and generally get laughed at. :)

I used to work with a kid from Guatemala. He got his work visa because he had ID and had worked for the Coca Cola plant that's located there. He got a job in HVAC-R and was my apprentice, so to speak. Helper really, anyway... He spoke a little English. There was an obvious language barrier and it was evident, especially with technical terms. I didn't mind and was only frustrated occasionally. He wanted to learn. It was obvious. I taught him English (poor bastard...*I* taught him English) and he taught me some Spanish, which I soon learned was more of a dialect of Guatemala and not Mexico, no biggie. He was also attending the local adult school.

Anyway, he wanted to learn.

We also have a large population of Portuguese in our area. They migrate here via relatives that own and operate dairies here. There's no bilingual aid for these people, there shouldn't be any for Mexicans and/or Mexican Americans.

Someone finally told the marchers that the American flag would be a better idea. Seems you see more of them than in the previous marches.

There were huge marches/protests here in Utah over the weekend. The American Flag was very much displayed by the marchers and chants of USA USA USA rang throughout the throng of folks.

Was very peaceful, but they're still missing the point.

Get legal get right and get on with your life. It's not about turning all the illegals into criminals so much as forcing them to do the right things.

Fandros

heh.
They cant get legal, thats the problem. Its a bit of a catch 22.

If you are a lower class laborer in Mexico and you apply to citzenship in the United States, whats your probability or likelyhood of gaining legal entry into this country is virtually nil. They know this. One of the reasons why is the massive numbers of illegals we have. the most effective way to become a US citizen for these people is to sneak over the border and keep a low profile for a few years.
See the irony of the situation?
No wall is going to stop it. You basically have people who by crossing some invisible line can dramatically improve the lives of their families. There is no more powerful motivator in the world.
Immigration issues can only and will only be solved by a more fluid relationship with Mexico. We are the only modern, western country in the world that shares a border with a 3rd world country. The fates of both nations are intertwined, like it or not.
If we stop all illegals from entering the country and working, sending their money back to mexico, this will ensure the economic collapse of that economy and the opening of the Mexican people toward overt resentment of the US and the introduction of Chavez/Castro influence and style of government.

I'm not for deportation of the law abiding immigrants, illegal or not. What I want is a path for them to become naturalized from get go and for them to feed into the system they take from.

Fandros

The problem is not the Mexicans who want to be in America and be American, I agree we need a path for that. It's those that come here, have no desire to be American, speak the national language (declared or not), and follow the basic rules of this country....and the drain on public services they create. Granted, if you make them legal, make employers pay for medical coverage, make them pay taxes, buy auto insurance, make them (especially their children) learn the language and be accountable...the cost for employing them will go up as will the cost of goods they provide. Right now we are paying for them though increased local, state and federal costs, and higher medical costs (to some degree). The problem is, it's out of control. They are stressing services, commiting crimes, costing millions to try an educate in their language (which I think is a dis-service to them) and are being exploited in a lot of cases.

The key is to get some control over the problem...give those that want to be a Americans a path, those that don't give them temporary green cards and make employers provide from basic human services (health care, collecting taxes (which we use to create additional services for this community). If they don't have this green card make it a federal offense to hire them and punish any company that does. This way we know what we are dealing and can plan for it instead of ignoring the problem until our systems start to break down and people are at each others throat. We pay for it either way, in the cost of goods and services or through increased health care costs and taxes.

Kicking them out or building a wall won't work. How do you kick two parents out that have an anchor baby that has a right to stay (I won't go into whether that's right or wrong). And once they are out, who takes over the menial labor they do for us in this country.

Easy solution :

Gov't low bid contract to build the wall.

The illegals will flock to it since they don't mind finishing concrete and digging ditches for 8 bucks an hour in the TX heat (when ya don't pay taxes it isn't too bad).

Have em construct it from the Mexican side of the border.

When completed, shut the gate with em on the Mexican side.

You have now constructed the wall, at a lower labor cost to the contractor, rounded up a bunch of illegals without much effort, and deported them :p

Win win! :p

Easy solution :

Gov't low bid contract to build the wall.

The illegals will flock to it since they don't mind finishing concrete and digging ditches for 8 bucks an hour in the TX heat (when ya don't pay taxes it isn't too bad).

Have em construct it from the Mexican side of the border.

When completed, shut the gate with em on the Mexican side.

You have now constructed the wall, at a lower labor cost to the contractor, rounded up a bunch of illegals without much effort, and deported them :p

Win win! :p

Wow! You should be a politician!!!!
I meant that as a compliment....

The Governor of Georgia has now signed one of the toughest immigration laws in the United States (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1853053). Here are some of the requirements of the new law:


You must show that you are in this country legally in order to obtain taxpayer-funded government services. Exceptions are made for some medical care and government schools. (Believe it or not, the federal courts have ruled that you have a "right" to get your children in a taxpayer-funded government school even if you're in this country illegally.)
An employer will be barred from claiming a state tax deduction on the wages of illegal aliens.
Employers will (eventually) be responsible for making sure the people they hire are in this country legally. They will be given years to implement a plan to observe this law. The more employees you have, the longer you have to comply.
As you would expect, the illegal alien lobby (who knew there was an illegal alien lobby?) is upset. They're planning demonstrations and something I think they're calling "Nothing Gringo Days." I wonder if this "Nothing Gringo" nonsense means that they'll keep their children home from our schools and refuse to accept any government services on that day that might have been funded with evil Gringo taxes. Probably not.

Oh .. there's one more provision in this law. As I understand it, law enforcement officers would be required to check the immigration status of people they stop for traffic violations. My guess is that this will mean that many people who are here illegally will try to outrun the police when the see those blue lights. People will be killed in the ensuing accidents. File this under the law of unintended consequences.

http://boortz.com

Let's try not to change this thread to "Should police chase criminals through our streets". That could be a seperate thread all together, and probably has.

Nothing Gringo. (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/04/14/mexico.boycott.ap/)

I hope it works as well as the 1 day boycott of gasoline prices...

I'm not for deportation of the law abiding immigrants, illegal or not. What I want is a path for them to become naturalized from get go and for them to feed into the system they take from.

Fandros If they're here illegally, they're not law-abiding.

By law abiding I mean those working hard to provide for their families and not those working hard to break the laws.

Yes, they are all breaking the law if they are here illegally. But I wouldn't be adverse to allowing those attempting to acclimate a route to become legal.

Fandros

...an affordable route too.

Define Affordable?
What I can Afford, you might not be able to, and vice versa.

Let's not get hung up on definitions. Make it reasonable for someone making less than 20K a year.

Just get them in the system and make it high enough they can't pull it out of their pockets.

Unsure of the cost for immigrants coming in legally but perhaps base it off of that. Make it payable over a set period of time perhaps.

Fandros

Sounds like slavery. Work for your freedom, Hector, WORK!!!!

*Whip crack*

Sounds like slavery. Work for your freedom, Hector, WORK!!!!

*Whip crack*

Hmm... well.. how about paying to "catch up" to the rest of us in terms of...

Social Security
Medicare
State and Local programs
(insert the multitude of programs I didn't mention)

All of these things are paid for out of our wages... wages that we are taxed on from the time we begin to work until they put us in the ground.

If you are going to let someone become "legal"... then that means that they have already been here making money but NOT paying into the system.

Just an idea.... but if we're going to accept the "illegal" folks and allow them to stay in this country and utilize the government benefits, then let them "catch up" to the rest of us.

Okay, maybe not an airtight plan... but with some work I'm sure it would wind up being something that some politician can make some $$$ off of and further justify more pork in their homestate.

*tosses a couple of coppers in the hat*

Sixee, the world you live in is an interesting if a simple simon kinda world.

Work for your freedom Hector work?

We all work, we all bust our chops and we all serve.

Why should it be different and why in gods name do you sit and call it slavery?

Gods man, do you not realize how ignorant you sound when you post?

Fandros

Sixee, the world you live in is an interesting if a simple simon kinda world.

Work for your freedom Hector work?

We all work, we all bust our chops and we all serve.

Why should it be different and why in gods name do you sit and call it slavery?

Gods man, do you not realize how ignorant you sound when you post?

Fandros

So you go to the personal attack tactic.
Let me spell it out for you; you plan says Come on in Hector, make payments if you can't afford the process, and become an American Citizen.
Gandaar's plan is better. Make the 1's here pay for the services they have been using, and get them on the road to citizenship.
The 1's that try to get in the country illegally, we turn away, even if they have a child born here.

It wasn't so much a personal attack as a response to an image you were creating that I find reprehensible boyo.

Might want to reread your last post as well, it's a mish mash of playground english and behind the liquor store logic.

/shudder

You are growing more painful to read, soon I shall have to put you on ignore inorder to spare my few remaining brain cells.

Back on topic:

Ones that are here are already here, as long as they are obeying the rest of the written law let them stay as long as they work to get legal. It's not like we can afford nor logistically throw out 11 million illegals ( not to mention turn into felons all those that helped them).

Ones that aren't here should have to follow the same process as any other imigrant from anyother nation. We might want to review said process and see if it's relevent and obtainable.

Tell ya what Sixee, stick in the shallows, you really aren't challenging anyone at anything.

Fandros

Estimated 11 million illegals.

Figure 1/2 will be eligible to become legal American citizens.

You now have 5.5 million Social Security numbers needing to be assigned, and files opened. How long do you suppose this will take? How many temp workers will be transferred in, or hired, to accomplish this?

This is just one of the many impacts this issue will be having.

It is in no way a simple matter.

But, we can go the ridiculous route and use Sixee's definition of slavery, and then their great, great grandchildren can sue your's and mine for reparations in another 150-200 years. Of course, once they become Americans they can contribute to the funds being asked for by others demanding reparations.

It wasn't so much a personal attack as a response to an image you were creating that I find reprehensible boyo.

Might want to reread your last post as well, it's a mish mash of playground english and behind the liquor store logic.

/shudder

You are growing more painful to read, soon I shall have to put you on ignore inorder to spare my few remaining brain cells.

Back on topic:

Ones that are here are already here, as long as they are obeying the rest of the written law let them stay as long as they work to get legal. It's not like we can afford nor logistically throw out 11 million illegals ( not to mention turn into felons all those that helped them).

Ones that aren't here should have to follow the same process as any other imigrant from anyother nation. We might want to review said process and see if it's relevent and obtainable.

Tell ya what Sixee, stick in the shallows, you really aren't challenging anyone at anything.

Fandros

Boyo? What kind of word is that? Must be a new one because I never heard it on the playground or behind the liquor store.
If you'd care to read my post, we actually agree. You are so busy taking offense (and creating words like boyo) that you fail to see that I actually am saying, let the 1's that have been here a while stay, but make them pay for the services they have been using since being here.
No more illegals should be given this chance. The rest that want to come here should do this by legal means.
If it means repealing the 14th amendment, then so be it.
Incidentally, this Amendment was put in the Constitution to allow the children of African slaves to become citizens of the US.
If you want to put me on ignore, I won't lose any sleep over it. I'll just be over here in the shallows, wading.

Boyo? What kind of word is that? Must be a new one because I never heard it on the playground or behind the liquor store.
If you'd care to read my post, we actually agree. You are so busy taking offense (and creating words like boyo) that you fail to see that I actually am saying, let the 1's that have been here a while stay, but make them pay for the services they have been using since being here.
No more illegals should be given this chance. The rest that want to come here should do this by legal means.
If it means repealing the 14th amendment, then so be it.
Incidentally, this Amendment was put in the Constitution to allow the children of African slaves to become citizens of the US.
If you want to put me on ignore, I won't lose any sleep over it. I'll just be over here in the shallows, wading.

Please see my post above yours and explain the procedures you would suggest for expediting Social Security numbers/files. And, if you are feeling industrious, maybe you can look into all of the other federal and state paperwork that granting legal status to those already here will entail, and what will be required to offset that added expense to taxpayers.

Well, according to http://www.brmrs.org/how2cit.html
the only cost involved is $95 for the application fee.
If you add in the cost of all the other paperwork, I'm thinking around $200 when all is said and done, it would be around $300 per person.
Multiply that by the average of 11 Million undocumented workers and you get 3.3 billion in costs.
So we can either raise taxes, as Democrats like to do, or sweep it under the carpet, like Republicans do.
Or we could get it from the workers themselvse, in the form of garnishing thier 1st year's worth of wages.
Make the IRS in charge of it, they seem pretty efficient in that sort of thing.

Well, according to http://www.brmrs.org/how2cit.html
the only cost involved is $95 for the application fee.
If you add in the cost of all the other paperwork, I'm thinking around $200 when all is said and done, it would be around $300 per person.
Multiply that by the average of 11 Million undocumented workers and you get 3.3 billion in costs.
So we can either raise taxes, as Democrats like to do, or sweep it under the carpet, like Republicans do.
Or we could get it from the workers themselvse, in the form of garnishing thier 1st year's worth of wages.
Make the IRS in charge of it, they seem pretty efficient in that sort of thing.

You are missing the point. How long do you think it is going to take, and how many extra personnel will be required, JUST for the Social Security numbers/files.

This is not some little, "Gee whiz, what a swell idea. Let's go ahead and do it" situation. There are a multitude of agencies and such involved in someone becoming a citizen.

You are missing the point. How long do you think it is going to take, and how many extra personnel will be required, JUST for the Social Security numbers/files.

This is not some little, "Gee whiz, what a swell idea. Let's go ahead and do it" situation. There are a multitude of agencies and such involved in someone becoming a citizen.


So rather than complain about the situation, what is your solution?
Or do you just like to whine?
I have some cheese to go with it if you like....

So rather than complain about the situation, what is your solution?
Or do you just like to whine?
I have some cheese to go with it if you like....

What the hell are you talking about now?

I have simply pointed out that there is a massive logistical consideration to be included in the discussion of making these illegals legal, and you accuse me of complaining. What am I complaining about then, Sixee? Enlighten me with your razor sharp wit and links and copied phrases.

When I point out the huge endeavor of assigning Social Security numbers, you reply with some figures and talk about tax money. I say you missed my point, and you reply that I am complaining and whining. Your remarkable ability to expand on your demonstrations of ignorance may yet someday make you as legendary as the person who handed the brown paper sack to President Lincoln on which he later wrote his famous speech.

You continue to marginalize yourself with your asinine participation on this board.

You continue to marginalize yourself with your asinine participation on this board.I find it remarkable that anyone continues to bother with Boortz's loyal catamite.

The point is valid. I could see the federal government legislating legalization then leaving it to the states to implement, but the SSN part has to be handled by Washington. Georgia, I think, has a state ID program of some sort coming online; DC might tell the states to set up something similar.