Typical poo flinging from a grunt who only thinks military folks can analyze and comment on situations like this. Would you fling your same stinky poo at Halo, he's not miltary but has some very insightful military analysis for us here on these boards?


Cheers,

Halo tends to limit himself to military actions before the turn of the last century.

And Fandros is associated with the Airforce, and is no way a grunt.

And you are in neither man's category. I would take the word of someone who is actively engaged in the Armed Forces, over someone who sits north of the border and, well.....

What is it you do, exactly?

What is it you do, exactly?
Do you mean the country?

Well, we have the better part of are armed forces tied up in Afghanistan to keep a lid on the place while the U.S. goes to play in sandboxes.


Halo tends to limit himself to military actions before the turn of the last century.


Definately not. You reading the same boards I am Sixee?


Cheers,

Halo is very well educated and not prone to making statements lacking in unbiased information. You on the other hand fling poo at every chance and obviously lack any sort of practical knowledge in the field.

L2 isn't military either, but I generally listen to him in any arena given that he actually studies all sides of a subject to death before commenting...usually!

We had quite a few boots on the ground in Afgan and were doing the lions share of the work, as usual, while being dogged by ignorants for not getting the job done.

Move along Lokase, your not willing to do more than fling your bs.

Yet again Fandros you offer zero to the subject matter of the thread.

Cheers,

What are you offering ? No facts no reality just bullshit you spew without anything to back it up.

pot/kettle/black you savage.

Do you have friends and family serving in both combat operations? Have you yourself served in either arena?

Fuck not you haven't, so please stop to make up bullshit without proof.

Oh and stop with the " whine whine whine Fandros no offering whine whine bs" please. You have never offered anything at the table other than continual whining and America bashing. Either of which should have you at the kiddies table soon.

Locase..straight from Halo's mouth:

Also, for those modern military buffs out there (I only go up to the nineteenth century!), why would China not possess an aircraft carrier? I thought most modern military powers did (China dwarfs us, and yet we've just built a whole new line of Carriers...)?

Do you have friends and family serving in both combat operations? Have you yourself served in either arena?

Fuck not you haven't, so please stop to make up bullshit without proof.

Don't pretend you know anything about me Fandros.

I have family, friends and past work colleuges serving in Afghanistan. I have worked on many Military contracts in the past that directly support both Canadian and American troops in active theaters, the most recent finished in January. I have enough knowledge of the subject matter to comment on it and to argue points.


Oh and stop with the " whine whine whine Fandros no offering whine whine bs" please.


Why Fandros, thats what this board is all about apparently. You very rarely have anything to contribute to the disscussions and arguments on this board except to take personal shots at people when you disagree with their point of view (which happens on just about every post). Try debating the subject instead of spouting your constant viseral.


You have never offered anything at the table other than continual whining and America bashing.


pfftt, whatever mate.


Cheers,

Don't pretend you know anything about me Fandros.

I have family, friends and past work colleuges serving in Afghanistan. I have worked on many Military contracts in the past that directly support both Canadian and American troops in active theaters, the most recent finished in January. I have enough knowledge of the subject matter to comment on it and to argue points.



Why Fandros, thats what this board is all about apparently. You very rarely have anything to contribute to the disscussions and arguments on this board except to take personal shots at people when you disagree with their point of view (which happens on just about every post). Try debating the subject instead of spouting your constant viseral.



pfftt, whatever mate.


Cheers,


More empty blather deviod of original thought or content.

Grats "mate" for being a bottom feeder.

Not once have you offered any proof. You say we left Afgan and when caught in the bs you try to shift.

Come out and say it, you read and live vicariously through others original thoughts and opinions. Get out of that damn igloo and live "mate" instead of coming here and blasting my country for living up to things you only can dream of slinging poo at.

As I said we should have kept more of afocus in Afgan. However just because you dont' see info on your bullshit sites doesn't mean our presence isn't felt. We're there for a mission, not for your slanted pr.

Oh and wipe the froth off your monitor "mate".

lol, thanks for proving my point Fandros.


Cheers,

whatever, you might want to ease up on those rocks cupcake. You've shattered a few of your glass walls.

Lokase 1 - Fandros 0

Jedd, noone trusts you to manage any sort of scoring system. Shhh

Jedd 1 - Fandros 0

lmao hit your head too many times on the bottom of that septic tank haven't ya.

Jedd 2 - Fandros 0

Well that's just great, you two feckless fucknuts do nothing but attack me and do nothing to refute or discuss the topic ( well other than Lokase lying about America leaving Afgan ) and now I'm dragged into the mud with you.

Dammit, Dad taught me better than to try to engage in debate with inbred bastards trying to argue their way out of the refuse skimmed off the top of the gene pool.

So Dad taught you not to engage in debate with people like yourself?

Jedd 3 - Fandros 0

Finished yet?

You have to be kidding child. Jedd neg 3 Fandros not keeping track

Guess not...

Jedd 4 - Fandros 0

AAhhhh in lieu of watching such ilk as you represent kissing a curb I just have to watch you practice counting. You've been wrong SOOO many times before it's fun to watch you try to ascribe to any form of err victory?

Go ahead, show us how desperate you are to keep counting fake coup. Do it , even rainman could do as you are doing but you're catching up to him!!

Ten minutes to Wapner!

Jedd wins... Fandros implodes!!!

Seriously though Fandros, I love ya man. Sometimes you drive me nuts, but I think all in all you are a good guy.

It's reassuring to know that no matter how retarded an argument was, we as a forum are always ready to step up, get it drunk, and watch it pee on itself.

Hey, none of he original arguement was directed at Feckless Jedd but he jumped right in as usual.

Desperate for some sort of victory after so much time watching his country of choice piddle all down it's own legs I guess.

Jedd wins... Fandros implodes!!!

Seriously though Fandros, I love ya man. Sometimes you drive me nuts, but I think all in all you are a good guy.


wth now I'm confused!!

Sweep the leg!

This thread is full of win

Except I don't remember creating it....

And I was asking about you specifically, Loka, not the country of Canadia.

you didnt create it, looks like a split off by Malse, seriously he names the threads the best.

i want to flame people and go off topic to challenge his creative wit, no sarcasm intended whatsoever.


Oh, and Jedd....its Jedd -3 Fandros 0, you're an idiot. You can't caqll me biased judge cause Fandros and I have agree'd on maybe 5 things ever, 3 of which were this month.

What is it you do, exactly?


And I was asking about you specifically, Loka, not the country of Canadia.


I'm a web developer. From 2000-2006 I worked almost exclusivly on Military contracts for my employer. Everything from a Common Operations Portal to Electronic Warfare.

I went freelance in 2006 and try to mostly focus on small to medium non-military clients with the odd Government contract thrown in to bolster my year end. A few of those contracts have been with the Military, mostly spending time on helping to build new hosting platforms for production systems servicing the forces and operations in Afghanistan.

I got to work with a lot of U.S. Military personnel over the years. The Canadian and American forces have a very unique and integrated collaboration methodology, our systems are very intertwinded with one another, throw in NATO and the systems integration diagrams start to look like a forign language!


Cheers,

Sounds like Loka is only 6500 miles from Afghanistan. Building software platforms for the military is a far cry from being a student of military history, or actively serving in the Armed Forces.

I'll have to side with Fandros as having more insight into this subject....

you didnt create it, looks like a split off by Malse, seriously he names the threads the best.

i want to flame people and go off topic to challenge his creative wit, no sarcasm intended whatsoever.


Oh, and Jedd....its Jedd -3 Fandros 0, you're an idiot. You can't caqll me biased judge cause Fandros and I have agree'd on maybe 5 things ever, 3 of which were this month.

I could care less what you think... I was just enjoying posting something completely pointless and getting a huge reaction out of it. Basically let the poster post themselves into irrelevance.

I think it worked wonderfully and proved Lokase's point, but you are entitled to your own opinion.

being a student of military history, or actively serving in the Armed Forces.


Alright professor, tell us your background.


Cheers,

Sorry but this is getting fucking annoying...

IT DOES NOT TAKE BEING A SOLDIER TO CALL BULLSHIT WHAT IT IS.

Just cause one has not served does not mean they lack the information to discuss a subject.

Tired of this crap...

'Halo is very well educated and not prone to making statements lacking in unbiased information'

- Have my children.

Yeah I go up to the nineteenth century, but it sure as hell doesn't stop me from commenting ignorantly on post-19th century bollocks. Err, I mean 'affairs'. Forget I'm edumacated.

Sorry but this is getting fucking annoying...

IT DOES NOT TAKE BEING A SOLDIER TO CALL BULLSHIT WHAT IT IS.

Just cause one has not served does not mean they lack the information to discuss a subject.

Tired of this crap...

So fucking tired that you lose all ability to think rationally eh?

When Lokase, lied, I called him out for it. Wow you're right didn't take being a soldier ( I wasn't btw, shows once again you are out of your depth ) to know he was up in the fucking night. Just took someone with an IQ higher than your wrench size.

Actually Canada has busted its balls in Afghanistan while we have been fucking around in Iraq. You are so used to talking shit about Canada you disrespect the Canadian men and women fighting and dieing in a war we started.

When Lokase, lied

lol

Cheers,

Actually Canada has busted its balls in Afghanistan while we have been fucking around in Iraq. You are so used to talking shit about Canada you disrespect the Canadian men and women fighting and dieing in a war we started.

Boobalah, we were Afganistan as well. My contention is, fools like you and Lokase all try to sell ( or perhaps are just ignorant ) that we left. We didn't leave infact we were the major player there even when our focus, and yes perhaps wrongly, shifted.

I'm not knocking Canda you dumbass, it's only Lokase I am finding out is a world class poser. I happen to love Canadian women and their fine beer ;P

We never left, but we cut the amount of troops in Afghanistan big time...

We never left, but we cut the amount of troops in Afghanistan big time...


That was the original point I was trying to make.

Instead of debating out that mis-communicated point Fandros decided to hop one one of his all too famous personal poo-fling escapades.

Is this how you interact with everyone in your life Fandros? When you get short changed at the diner do you launch a personal crusade against the waitress?

And here I thought I was a cyncial bastard, /bows to Fandros.


Cheers,

That was the original point I was trying to make.

Instead of debating out that mis-communicated point Fandros decided to hop one one of his all too famous personal poo-fling escapades.

Is this how you interact with everyone in your life Fandros? When you get short changed at the diner do you launch a personal crusade against the waitress?

And here I thought I was a cyncial bastard, /bows to Fandros.


Cheers,

Nope, as you're one of the few truly beknighted fools I've run across you get the lions share. Most folks I deal with aren't tools who's only social interaction is their web related job so they actually act human.

Keep the bowing to yourself , I want nothing to do with you offering up your rump.

Whose, dammit.

Keep the bowing to yourself


Sounds good poo flinger, I will only engage you in personal attacks from here on out as that is the only type of conversation you can comprehend.


Cheers,

That's just it child, you've never done anything else but attack.

Alright professor, tell us your background.


Cheers,

I currently am a computer technician at an aerospace company. However I served in the US Army for 4 years back in the late 80s and early 90's, back when we first started playing around in the Middle East.

For 3 years starting in 1999, I worked as a computer tech on a military post, at a hospital. So I have a pretty extensive military background and first hand knowledge of what we are capable, militarily.

When I was seven, I won a Civil War simulation playing as the Confederacy. How much experience do you have at being a General?!

I worked as a computer tech


No disrespect to your time in the service Sixee, but how does that qualify you more than I to comment on military scenarios in Pakistan in todays timeline.


Cheers,

I never said you couldn't comment on anything. I just said I was less likely to listen to what you had to say, based on your background, rather than Fandros, based on his background.

Sanchek, I won a computer game based on the Battle of the Bulge, as the Nazis. How much expierence do you have baing a facist? Think about your recent comments about shutting down the board, before you answer.....

Wouldn't that make me more of a Nihilist?

PSSHAAA!, i'd smoke both of you in a game of Axis & Allies!

When I was seven, I won a Civil War simulation playing as the Confederacy. How much experience do you have at being a General?!


OMG you really are from Georgia!

Hey...and where is the part of this thread where I called Fandros an Airwinger?

Taliban spokesman Haji Muslim Khan explains why his folks are up in arms (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/video-of-pakistani-taliban-in-buner-and-swat/):
Mr. Khan said that Pakistan’s Prime Minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, “should think about Western white women who take up arms and come from 20,000 miles away to fight against us here.”
Given that the circumference of the planet is only about 25,000 miles, it is not clear what route Mr. Khan believes Western forces are taking to get to Pakistan.

At least Malse has a better understanding of distance than those we are up in arms against.

Sorry saw this tidbit of hilarity and thought it fitting for the title of this thred.

Actually, reducing deployment in a half-finished war in Afghanistan while opening up a vastly demanding new front in Iraq will go down in history as the largest strategic mistake for at least half a century.

Never disputed that we made a mistake in reducing troops in Afgan.

Yah I don't even know who I aimed that at.

I'm sure someone disputed that fact but, checking over the thread, it doesn't appear to be so. In conclusion? Ignore meh!

Hell no, you still owe me a pint or twenty of something dark!

With a few exceptions...Brit's suck at beer compared to say Germany. Hold out for some genuine Welsh Mead instead!

Spent a month drinking Brit Beer while stationed at Duchy in Italy. It's been 20 years but there was a few I enjoyed at their side of the base.

What? We're fucking brilliant at beer. You've not drank, until you've sipped a pint of Harvey's Best, or Bass Ale. Fandros knows what he's talking about.

Pfft, not good at beer... I oughta...

Old Speckled Hen, anyone?

Actually, reducing deployment in a half-finished war in Afghanistan while opening up a vastly demanding new front in Iraq will go down in history as the largest strategic mistake for at least half a century.

I think you (and others) may want to take a closer look at the history and examine your perspective a bit. Largest strategic mistake? I think that honor goes to creating/arming the Taliban in the first place, not reducing troop strength by 13% for less than a year.

US force strength continually *increased* from the initial attack until well into 2005 (yes, this is *after* the invasion of Iraq) when Rumsfield (dummy that he is) decided to trim back a whopping 2500 US troops (from 19000 to 16500). This reduction was supposed to have been more than made up for by the introduction of NATO forces from other countries which theoretically should have actually increased the overall number of western forces. More the fool he for thinking the US could count on some of our more reticent allies to actually do the job (not poking at you Brits, Danish or Canadians..you guys have been great). But the fact remains that the reduction was neither massive nor long term. In 2007 US troop numbers began to grow again up to 21000, then up to 31000 in 2008.

Gulor, you aren't supposed to introduce facts in the FFA section. You are just supposed to fling poo at everyone, till your arms get too tired to lift.

Be that as it may, I'm sure your post will draw the ire of everyone who feels the need to paint the former Administration in nothing but a bad light.

Prepare for the incoming "Bushbot/Repubapuke/Dittohead" attack....

Sixee, whatever you eat for breakfast has way too much sugar and shit in it.:rolleyes:

'I think you (and others) may want to take a closer look at the history and examine your perspective a bit. Largest strategic mistake? I think that honor goes to creating/arming the Taliban in the first place, not reducing troop strength by 13% for less than a year.

US force strength continually *increased* from the initial attack until well into 2005 (yes, this is *after* the invasion of Iraq) when Rumsfield (dummy that he is) decided to trim back a whopping 2500 US troops (from 19000 to 16500). This reduction was supposed to have been more than made up for by the introduction of NATO forces from other countries which theoretically should have actually increased the overall number of western forces. More the fool he for thinking the US could count on some of our more reticent allies to actually do the job (not poking at you Brits, Danish or Canadians..you guys have been great). But the fact remains that the reduction was neither massive nor long term. In 2007 US troop numbers began to grow again up to 21000, then up to 31000 in 2008.'

- Sorry Gulor, just noticed your reply! Let me get into academic mode *hat on, with skull and bones sign on front* Yeearrgghh, matey! I be capt'n of the Ayonae Sark! Wait, wrong thread...

Nowhere did I mention the reduction in troop deployment to be massive or long term. I initially wanted to emphasis that a reduction took place, and a new, vastly demanding front opened in the form of the 2003 Iraqi war. What does drawing attention to these two points indicate in the light of your statistics?

Firstly - reducing troop deployment in the early stages of what, by 2005, was quite clearly a conflict of gruelling occupational attrition, is a strategic mistake. It notifies the enemy that there is a reduction of committment and perhaps even determination (which, we know with hindsight, was the case as Afghanistan faded into the shadows and the Iraq war was propelled to the forefront of not just the people's attention, but policy-makers and military resources). It doesn't matter if it was by 2,500, as you stated, or by 25,000. Admitting that these numbers were supposed, by 2005, to be adequately filled in by allies is not terribly clever strategic sense. The hap-hazard and half-hearted quota's delivered by allies (of the US, Canada and Britain - as the largest contributors) even in 2001-3 were largely inadequate. To not have any official and timely take-over, as in Iraq, of occupying forces, but to leave it to flawed diplomatic wrangling *after* US troops had left is, again, bad strategy.

Secondly - the Iraqi War symbolises less a siphoning of US troops from Afghanistan, but more a prevention of US troopd deployment on a scale that would greatly contribute to strategic success. What do I mean? With 100,000 US troops and billions of US dollars pouring into Iraq, the same could not be done with Afghanistan. Had the Iraq front not been opened, it is difficult not to conclude that the same kind of commitment would have been poured into the Afghan occupation when policy-makers and military leaders finally realised (as they did by 2005) that we were victorious in Afghanistan only in the square miles we occupied and that even as 2006 rolled around the Taleban became resurgent as their backed war-lords dominated large territorial sections of the country (let's not forget, as recently as 2008 Taleban forces launched attacks on Kabul, for godsake). Yes, troop deployment was increased by 10,000 from 2007-08, but the same kind of 'Surge' in Iraq rose deployment from a massive 100,000 to 130,000. Could you imagine what kind of effect that could have had on the Afghan mission?

The entire Afghan campaign has been a lacklustre affair that was quickly stripped of a remote chance of success by the opening up of a vast Iraqi front that benefited from the kind of resources and deployment that Afghanistan never now would. It is not a stretch to assume that, were 130,000 US troops not tied down in Iraq, with billions of dollars and supplies flooding in on a weekly basis, then the war in the Hindu Kush would be going far better.

We made a strategic blunder by beginning a war which scored no critical success in the early stages, neglected it for a new front, and then returned six years later to begin increasing troop numbers to less than a third of what they were in Iraq.

That is not how a war is won. So yes, the entire affair was the kind of strategic madness that would have made Wellington shiver in his boots.

Nowhere did I mention the reduction in troop deployment to be massive or long term. I initially wanted to emphasis that a reduction took place, and a new, vastly demanding front opened in the form of the 2003 Iraqi war. What does drawing attention to these two points indicate in the light of your statistics?

Firstly - reducing troop deployment in the early stages of what, by 2005, was quite clearly a conflict of gruelling occupational attrition, is a strategic mistake. It notifies the enemy that there is a reduction of committment and perhaps even determination (which, we know with hindsight, was the case as Afghanistan faded into the shadows and the Iraq war was propelled to the forefront of not just the people's attention, but policy-makers and military resources). It doesn't matter if it was by 2,500, as you stated, or by 25,000. Admitting that these numbers were supposed, by 2005, to be adequately filled in by allies is not terribly clever strategic sense. The hap-hazard and half-hearted quota's delivered by allies (of the US, Canada and Britain - as the largest contributors) even in 2001-3 were largely inadequate. To not have any official and timely take-over, as in Iraq, of occupying forces, but to leave it to flawed diplomatic wrangling *after* US troops had left is, again, bad strategy.

Secondly - the Iraqi War symbolises less a siphoning of US troops from Afghanistan, but more a prevention of US troopd deployment on a scale that would greatly contribute to strategic success. What do I mean? With 100,000 US troops and billions of US dollars pouring into Iraq, the same could not be done with Afghanistan. Had the Iraq front not been opened, it is difficult not to conclude that the same kind of commitment would have been poured into the Afghan occupation when policy-makers and military leaders finally realised (as they did by 2005) that we were victorious in Afghanistan only in the square miles we occupied and that even as 2006 rolled around the Taleban became resurgent as their backed war-lords dominated large territorial sections of the country (let's not forget, as recently as 2008 Taleban forces launched attacks on Kabul, for godsake). Yes, troop deployment was increased by 10,000 from 2007-08, but the same kind of 'Surge' in Iraq rose deployment from a massive 100,000 to 130,000. Could you imagine what kind of effect that could have had on the Afghan mission?

The entire Afghan campaign has been a lacklustre affair that was quickly stripped of a remote chance of success by the opening up of a vast Iraqi front that benefited from the kind of resources and deployment that Afghanistan never now would. It is not a stretch to assume that, were 130,000 US troops not tied down in Iraq, with billions of dollars and supplies flooding in on a weekly basis, then the war in the Hindu Kush would be going far better.

We made a strategic blunder by beginning a war which scored no critical success in the early stages, neglected it for a new front, and then returned six years later to begin increasing troop numbers to less than a third of what they were in Iraq.

That is not how a war is won. So yes, the entire affair was the kind of strategic madness that would have made Wellington shiver in his boots.

1. I disagree with your very first point. The very first mistake would be to turn this into a conflict of occupational attrition in the first place, as that is a battle we can't win. Reduction of forces was a *tactical* mistake (if it was a mistake), not a strategic one. The fact of the matter is no number of US troops would have made a real difference (except to make it easier for them to find and ambush our forces) while the Taliban were safe to recoup and organize in Pakistan. They still won't. The real battle needs to be fought in Pakistan (by Pakistanis) and until that happens, the numbers of US troops committed to Afghanistan are simply a band-aid.

2. See the above. Even if you had put in all the 150,000 plus US troops that were in Iraq instead of Afghanistan (which I maintain would be a mistake for different reasons), the situation would be unchanged as far as instability goes. It might have even been worse with the non-Taliban Afghanis seeing us as colonizers/conquerers as well and joining in the insurgency. The smaller the military footprint we have in Afghanistan, the less chance we will be seen as invaders.

The lackluster success of Afghanistan so far is solely due to the insufficient will of the Pakistani government to confront the militants in their northwest territories and the utter failure to empower the Afghan army. As long as they can safely arm, recruit, plan and mount attacks from Pakistan, no amount of US troops in Afghanistan will stem the insurgency.

I disagree with your very first point. The very first mistake would be to turn this into a conflict of occupational attrition in the first place, as that is a battle we can't win

Ah! the oft repeated 3000 yo mistake made by many many people when dealing with this region. you really only have to go as back as th 1980's to see a good example of how not to fight a war in Afghanistan.

The Mongol model of warfare is the only way to deal with these people.

Hello guys, right now I'm writing you from Kandahar Province in Afghanistan... So just letting you know my thoughts... the media really gives me people the wrong impression of things over here in my opinion. On the base here we work alongside Afghani workers/contractors, Canadians, Dutch, French, Romanian, Jordanian, Italian, Australian, Bulgarian, British, and of course US Task Forces, there's a lot of great things happening right now over here and a lot of people are putting there lives on the line to defend freedom for people back home... Yeah that might sound cheesy... but try being separated from your family for 12 months in a foreign country away from all the convieniences the states offer.

Also regarding troop levels, there is a massive surge of troops coming into Kandahar right now since the president authorized additional 17,000 troops to be sent to this country, I'm experiencing the effects on bases right now with DFAC (Dining Facility's) literally overflowing with military members and contractors at all the meals since Marines/Army/Air Force began ramping up troop levels throughout the entire Afghan theater.

I fully believe a lot of historic changes are due in this year 2009. So don't worry most of us know what we are doing, it's our jobs....

Take care all! :)

'I fully believe a lot of historic changes are due in this year 2009. So don't worry most of us know what we are doing, it's our jobs.... '

- While we all appreciate and thank the effort men like yourselves are upholding out there in such a harsh environment, it is difficult, in the light of history, to take your reassurance too seriously. Adding 17,000 men is going to change things little. It is taking the entire Pakistani military machine just to clear the Swat valley, just a portion of the Taliban-infested North West Frontier Province. A much smaller army, ergo, cannot radically change the military-political situation in an area the size of Afghanistan.

/salute Yasp

Thanks for your service man , didn't know you had it in you ( always thought it was just talid in you ).

All joking aside keep your head down and keep up the good work!!!

/salute Yasp

Thanks for your service man , didn't know you had it in you ( always thought it was just talid in you ).

All joking aside keep your head down and keep up the good work!!!

Ditto!

Hey thanks guys, I'm almost done here.. can't wait to take my leave for a month in the states.. get to eat some good 'ol American food, spend time with my family, and breath some fresh air for a change...

I never could get used to the smell over there. Stepping out of the airport once I got home and smelling that clean desert air in Utah was one of the memories I still retain.

Well done Yasp, enjoy the return home!!

Wastewater has a very distinctive smell at over 100 degrees. lol. :D

Man don't remind me, for such an acclaimed advanced culture they sure haven't figured out a sewer system that'll work ;P