As most of you are aware, the official stance for SOE in regards to camps *was* a) camps do not exist and b) the first ready to engage/spawn cycle has claim to said mob/cycle. That policy has changed now, according to our new server GM Jaanbaz.

A little background:

A few of uswere finishing up a guildmate beastlord's epic in Timorous. Being the first to arrive, I noticed the guild "Zone" had about a dozen people sitting around the scout. I sat nearby waiting for them to kill it so I could tell the people coming not to bother.

After 30 minutes of waiting and watching more of them slowly trickle in, everyone from my group had arrived(7 of us). I was discussing the matter with the shaman from their raid and discovered they had already been there for over half an hour even before I got there. At this point, since my group was ready, I asked them to engage or move aside so that we could. They replied they were still waiting for more people.

After having over an hour to prep and still sitting there unready to engage, I told our beastlord to turn in his coin and start the cycle. I had given them first shot after all, and informed them that if they didn't take the mob at that time our group would.

Our beastlord turns in his coin and starts the cycle, and we start killing the 6 spawned mobs from the turn in. At this point Tigaman sends me a tell saying he killed the scout(who our beastlord is to turn in the drops from the spawned mobs). I run up to verify this is so(it was), and receive tells from the shaman helping them that I had talked with earlier(notoriousraptor) informing me that Tigaman had killed the quest mob.

I run back down in time to see Tigaman and others from his guild training every raptor they could get their hands as well as the remaining 4 spawned mobs we had been single pulling onto our group, and attempt to kill those remaining spawned mobs. Great, 4 of us die..and so do a good number of them. They also managed to knock off and loot 2 of the spawned mobs our beastlord needed.

Immediately I petition, and while that is happening I get super lucky...Tigaman sends me a tell gloating that he killed our quest mob after the cycle has started, and laughing that our beastlord now has to start his epic over since he did not get the drops from the spawned mobs and had already turned in his coin. I send a /tell to the new server GM, Jaanbaz, informing her that we had trouble with people training/killstealing/killing our quest mob.

Jaanbaz tells me she is looking at the petition, and asks me to send in /reports of Tigaman's tells(which he is still sending). I send in about 8 reports(yeah, he was sending that many tells), and inform the beastlord who the raid was for(who was also laughing and taunting directly to him that he now had to restart his epic) and the other people with us to report their tells from Tigaman.

Now, I'm thinking we have him dead to rights at this point. We triggered the cycle after giving them over an hour to prepare with them still not ready, we have several people who /reported Tigaman sending tells that he killed the scout and laughing that our beastlord has to start his epic over. I'm even getting tells now from his guildmates there to help him informing me to let the gm's know they saw him kill and train us to screw up our beastlord's epic.

The Jaanbaz lets me know he/she is looking at all of the reports now and will be with me in a minute. After a bit Jaanbaz asks me to join the csrresolutions channel.

Here is the log from that(I also have screenshots of what happened before the log, however I can not host them. If someone wants to host them I will send them to you.):

[Mon Oct 20 18:58:38 2003] Jaanbaz tells you, 'Do you have any guild officer/ Leader who can represent your guild on at this time?'
[Mon Oct 20 18:58:47 2003] You told Jaanbaz, 'i am an officer'
[Mon Oct 20 18:58:52 2003] You told Jaanbaz, 'the guild leader is not on atm'
[Mon Oct 20 18:59:00 2003] Jaanbaz tells you, 'Please join CSRResolution channel'
[Mon Oct 20 18:59:15 2003] Channel CSRResolution(3) members:
[Mon Oct 20 18:59:15 2003] ^Jaanbaz, Madruid, Jharassik
[Mon Oct 20 18:59:19 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'hello'
[Mon Oct 20 18:59:27 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'hi'
[Mon Oct 20 18:59:42 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'Alright here is deal'
[Mon Oct 20 19:00:32 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'I have my petition queue full of petitions from both of your guilds. The first thing that I want you all to understand is that sending in multiple petitions regarding the same issue will not get a quick resolution for the,'
[Mon Oct 20 19:01:02 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'It only affects our ability to assist you.'
[Mon Oct 20 19:02:05 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'Two - From what I take it is that there are issues among each other from both groups '
[Mon Oct 20 19:02:28 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'Do I have both of you here and paying attention?'
[Mon Oct 20 19:02:35 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'I am here'
[Mon Oct 20 19:02:43 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'yes'
[Mon Oct 20 19:04:52 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'Now, As a GM if we have to interfere in this situation, we will have to take harsh action against you. If this becomes a support issue we will have to fix it completely'
[Mon Oct 20 19:05:49 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'thats it they get away with taking our camp after we were there hour before n e one from there guild got here and when they zoned in i said scout is ours'
[Mon Oct 20 19:06:16 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'if i may, when you are finished jaanbaz'
[Mon Oct 20 19:07:05 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'Now I have two officers of each guild with me & I want this issue to be resolve here mutually. Otherwise we will just be forced to take actio '
[Mon Oct 20 19:07:38 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'Im so pissed i can barly see'
[Mon Oct 20 19:07:46 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'If this occurs again, then the two of you will be held responsibile and this will be noted on each of your accounts'
[Mon Oct 20 19:08:05 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'if he kses my mob again i get in trouble??'
[Mon Oct 20 19:08:13 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'Could I have some clarification please? Because from what I understand the first person on site and ready to engage (or) the first ready group to start a spawned event has rights.'
[Mon Oct 20 19:08:40 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'bro we were there hour before you we were waiting on fallin mate'
[Mon Oct 20 19:09:07 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'I asked them to either engage cycle or stand aside and they replied they were waiting for more when my group was ready to engage. Was I wrong to have my group engage if they had people here but were not ready to start cycle?'
[Mon Oct 20 19:10:02 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'who you think you are tellin us when we have to be rdy we will be rdy when we are rdy'
[Mon Oct 20 19:11:06 2003] Jaanbaz tells you, 'One moment'
[Mon Oct 20 19:11:09 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'I am asking the GM about game policy to understand better if i was misunderstanding game policy'
[Mon Oct 20 19:11:11 2003] You told Jaanbaz, 'ok'
[Mon Oct 20 19:11:42 2003] You told Jaanbaz, 'i'm not trying to be patronizing btw i just thought i was operating under game policy'
[Mon Oct 20 19:11:56 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'its like me buying a soda and you saying drink it now or im gonna drink it'
[Mon Oct 20 19:25:21 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'GM dude isnt here n e way'
[Mon Oct 20 19:25:37 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'im loging off im to pissed to play EQ'
[Mon Oct 20 19:25:58 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'up to you, would think you would like this resolved first'
[Mon Oct 20 19:27:14 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'naa whats there to resolve?'
[Mon Oct 20 19:27:29 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'plenty from where I sit'
[Mon Oct 20 19:28:45 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'you cant even wait for your turn at scout '
[Mon Oct 20 19:29:08 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'I waited hella long for scout hes a 72 hopur spawn'
[Mon Oct 20 19:29:42 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'CSR guy is ignoring or gone or somthing n e way'
[Mon Oct 20 19:29:46 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'if you want to keep taunting me, by all means..i'll keep my responses aimed at the gm since I am interested in resolving this'
[Mon Oct 20 19:30:03 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'you the problem man'
[Mon Oct 20 19:30:12 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'Your rude and greedy'
[Mon Oct 20 19:31:06 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'it floors me to know that you would just take epic mob after i said it was mine'
[Mon Oct 20 19:31:31 2003] Madruid tells CSRResolution:2, 'bye'
[Mon Oct 20 19:31:44 2003] Channel CSRResolution(3) members:
[Mon Oct 20 19:31:44 2003] ^Jaanbaz, Jharassik, Madruid
[Mon Oct 20 19:31:55 2003] You told jaanbaz, 'afk?'
[Mon Oct 20 19:34:00 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'Ok, I am not afk'
[Mon Oct 20 19:34:17 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'ok'
[Mon Oct 20 19:38:32 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'Will it be possible to get a reimburse for licck, since killing the scout effectively erased all of our work on his epic so far?'
[Mon Oct 20 19:43:27 2003] Channel CSRResolution(2) members:
[Mon Oct 20 19:43:27 2003] ^Jaanbaz, Jharassik
[Mon Oct 20 19:44:14 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'are we supposed to be settling this ourselves? He left quite some time ago and I really only have two questions about it atm.'
[Mon Oct 20 19:44:38 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'Give me a few minutes, I am talking to him and I'll then get back with you'
[Mon Oct 20 19:44:50 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'ahh ok making sure i wasnt in time out, thanks'
[Mon Oct 20 19:55:35 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'i would appreciate it if you would stop taunting the person we were raiding epic for ikill'
[Mon Oct 20 20:02:16 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'Alright'
[Mon Oct 20 20:02:21 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'k'
[Mon Oct 20 20:03:12 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'I think I have an understanding with the other guild here. I will reiterate'
[Mon Oct 20 20:04:21 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'There were circumstances here which either of the groups could have avoided'
[Mon Oct 20 20:04:58 2003] Ikill tells CSRResolution:2, 'ehem we said scout was camped he coulda said ok and left'
[Mon Oct 20 20:05:21 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'I do not want any further CS issues between the two guilds. I will be noting the chat I have had on the accounts of both guild officers.'
[Mon Oct 20 20:06:43 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'Was I mistaken about game policy then? Could you clarify where I was mistaken so I do not make the same mistake in the future?'
[Mon Oct 20 20:06:59 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'Again, this should have been resolved without GM intervention, with the groups co-ordinating with each other.'
[Mon Oct 20 20:09:23 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'I was under the assumption from past rulings and statements that there are no camps in eq, and the first to engage or start a cycle had the rights to it. Their group had a full hour to engage before we did, more than thirty minutes of that I was here waiting to see if they did'
[Mon Oct 20 20:13:01 2003] Channel CSRResolution(3) members:
[Mon Oct 20 20:13:01 2003] ^Jaanbaz, Jharassik, Ikill
[Mon Oct 20 20:13:06 2003] Ikill tells CSRResolution:2, 'we done here i mist a meeting at work to do epic i can make it for second half if i go now'
[Mon Oct 20 20:13:53 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'The final verdict is that I just do not want any more issues between these two guilds.'
[Mon Oct 20 20:14:29 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'I am not interested to punish/warn individuals, just I do not want such issues to be taking CS time'
[Mon Oct 20 20:14:39 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'OK, but could you answer my question regarding game policy and possibly reimburse licck for all of his epic work that was erased when the cycle was interfered with?'
[Mon Oct 20 20:14:44 2003] Ikill tells CSRResolution:2, 'there was no guild issue with me there was only about six of them there'
[Mon Oct 20 20:15:33 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'I realize CS time is stretched pretty thin but I was under the assumption I was toeing the line as far as game policy goes'
[Mon Oct 20 20:16:22 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'No, I will not be able to reimburse that. As for the policy decision, KS & taking over spawns from guilds is frowned upon and not acceptable.'
[Mon Oct 20 20:16:35 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'That is in the Rules of Conduct for Everquest'
[Mon Oct 20 20:16:47 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'Ok, why will you not reimburse when you have logs showing him admitting he ksed it'
[Mon Oct 20 20:18:05 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'and my question revolves around the soe policy towards what constitutes a "claimed" mob. Are you stating that mobs can in fact be camped and it is not first to engage/first with the force ready/first to start cycle is not always the rightful owner of spawn?'
[Mon Oct 20 20:19:33 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'Yes the rules revolves around that its not appropriate to attack/KS something that someone else is fighting'
[Mon Oct 20 20:20:00 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'But there are ways to deal with situations like this.. instead of runing it for each other'
[Mon Oct 20 20:20:05 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'so it was our mob, because they had neither engaged nor spawned the epic cycle. They were merely sitting here waitint to do so'
[Mon Oct 20 20:20:24 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'our beastlord started the cycle, you can see why this might be confusing to me'
[Mon Oct 20 20:21:56 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'Agreed. However if a group was preparing for the event, you could have co-ordinated with them or did some type of agreement with them for the event'
[Mon Oct 20 20:22:06 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'It could be using a random number or a duel'
[Mon Oct 20 20:22:34 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'I did ask them if they were prepared, they said they were not prepared yet and we were'
[Mon Oct 20 20:23:10 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'I gave them the first attempt, I asked them to engage or stand aside, at which point they informed us over public channels they were not ready to engage'
[Mon Oct 20 20:24:08 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'I have made a decision in this regard.'
[Mon Oct 20 20:24:39 2003] You tell CSRResolution:2, 'Even with logged proof of them taunting our guildmember after destroying all of the work he has done so far?'
[Mon Oct 20 20:25:15 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'And I would suggest that you try other means in the future and I shall not want any further issues in this regard.'
[Mon Oct 20 20:26:06 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'If you feel that the decision is not what you believe to be correct. Then you can write your concerns on the way your issue was addressed.Our supervisors will review and take the appropriate steps'
[Mon Oct 20 20:26:26 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'You can mail at eqcs@soe.sony.c'

Now I'm getting a little angry towards the end, after Jaanbaz spends over 15 minutes talking with him about what happened and then not talking to me at all about the situation aside from asking for my reports earlier. Not only was our beastlord NOT reimbursed for all of his epic work so far that Tigaman destroyed(with plenty of proof from his own mouth to that effect), but the GM did not even discuss our side of this at all. In effect Jaanbaz inferred that our people were ksing his raid, despite the fact we were there first with the force necessary and we spawned the triggered cycle


What this boils down to is NEW POLICY ON CLAIMING SPAWNS, from the new head GM of our server, Jaanbaz:

1. You do not need to be ready to engage a spawn to claim it. In fact you can take all the time in the world and anyone else showing up has to wait for you, even if they are ready before you are and actually engage the mobs first

2. It is now OK to disrupt events triggered by other people, by killing turn in mobs or even taking mobs from the triggered event so the other group can not complete it.

3. It is now OK to train another group if they have beaten you to a spawn or triggered cycle.



Venerable Jharassik Mesozoic
Officer, Dragons of Mist

Hi!

*rolls eyes*

That was a rather silly GM decision.

Now I really dislike you for countless personal attacks against me and endless throwing shit at my person... but... This GM is honestly fucked up. If you tell the truth then its in NO way acceptable the GM did not take any action.
Yeah you don't want to have any more fights with this other guild either, but you want your Beastlord to be reimbursed. Of course you do. And its IMO your right.
I am a strong defendant of GMs usually,. but this is not right. This is in fact highly fucked up. As cheap as it gets.

I can only add the following, I wish I could add more :(

[Mon Oct 20 20:29:16 2003] Damasque tells CSRResolution:2, 'I am a whore. I can't help it... it's just who I am.'
[Mon Oct 20 20:29:48 2003] Talid tells CSRResolution:2, 'It's ok D-man...sometimes when I wake up I think there are starving dogs in my closet... and simultaneously there is raw meat in my boxers... I don't know why this happens, but I can tell you this... it really gets my motor revving (if you know what I mean).'
[Mon Oct 20 20:29:59 2003] Damasque tells CSRResolution:2, 'hold me Talid!'
[Mon Oct 20 20:30:10 2003] Talid tells CSRResolution:2, 'Yes... Yes.... YES... OH GOD YES!'

These zone guys sound retarded from your logs..

Hope one of them gets on here and defends their actions..


Wohoo a decent flame thread! =)

Actually only some of them are like that imo, several actually sent me tells not only apologizing for what happened, but telling me to let the gms know they saw him kill the mobs and train and would testify about it to them.

One Zone member there even deguilded over it.

Just sit there until they come back to do the epic turn in, then screw it up for them. You'll be in the "right" because you were there first.

Wow! This is what we get to look forward to? Damn them for taking Brioma away from us.

Great we loose a damn good lead gm to a fucking yes boy afraid to do his damn job. I say send everything you have to that email the gm gave you for shits and giggles and see what happens

I sent the email this morning before I even posted this btw, it also contained the log and I sent the screenshots of his tells as well(I realize they do not go by either, but they're there all the same).

[Mon Oct 20 20:13:53 2003] Jaanbaz tells CSRResolution:2, 'The final verdict is that I just do not want any more issues between these two guilds.'

I have a feeling this is going to be the standard answer. Watch out folks. This decision to make a NON decision is jst going to lead to more and more pissed people. What a fucktard.

Btw has anyone ever heard of Zone??

great. we have a GM that is gonna spawn complete anarchy across the server.

start the training, ksing, cockblocking, bitching, moaning, ninja looting and exploiting... cuz this GM doesnt do anything about it. Ayonae ro is a giant free-for-all. Wheee. This is so reassuring.

Brioma was a weird freak of nature guys. she was kind, intelligent and Fair.

Not exactly what soe looks for in a gm. what they want is someone able to avoid making a decision or helping anyone while at the same time keeping the same folks they refuse to help sending in their 12 bucks a month.

if you are a pro at saying things like..gee thats awefull! it must have been a bug!..no sorry I can't help you but I feel your pain( please report the bug and i will as well to get this issue fixed then You are gm material!

if you can enter a dispute and settle it by telling folks they should not have had a dispute in the first place sorry ya got screwed but gfy without anyone dropping their account YOU are GM material.

they are there so that soe does not need to deal with your in game BS and do nothing more than run interferance.

with the enormous exception of the goddess Brioma I have never once in the 3+ years of playing eq ever been helped or know ANYONE who has been helped by a gm unless it was something that would cause massive eq defections if not addressed or you were far better at argueing than the GM and got the upper hand..

gms are not there to help You they are there to keep large numbers from quitting the game and to run interferrance for soe.

Brioma was the only GM I personally ever knew who actually cared about the people she dealt with.

Desilous not only helped me personally and my guild several times (and fast), he also held fun GM events frequently.
I want him back :(

And as far as Guides go, Tixah is a great one and around a LOT. Dunno many other guides on our server.

Unfucking real.

We had it good for a long time. Looks like SOE went to the bottom of the barrel for this turd poacher of a GM. Hopefully the e-mail will net something...

Hahaha, I kill myself sometimes!

Nihou!

Shazbot! Lame decision for everyone. And bad tidings for the Ayonae Ro server in general.

Ah, well. It's been pointed out that we had the exception in Brioma,...now let's all move back to the Bad 'Ole Days!

/train inc to Pinches



With Tolerance For Flashbacks...

Valarian

Btw has anyone ever heard of Zone??

Yep.



There is another ADMIN-GM type person on our server named Chorl. This guy reminds me of Brioma. Hes very professional, funny, nice and actually takes time to listen and ask questions. He told me he will be around quite a bit on A.ro, in response to my asking about brioma leaving.

BTW, Chorl is now fully aware of Amplifyre :)

care to expand on that Zark?

expand on what?

You know, I guess the GM pooched this one too, but...

...how about letting the guys who've been camping the mob just have their spawn. It's not like the Beastlord epic is that contested -- you can't just come back.

[And I'd gladly suggest the same thing with Vulak / Emperor / Trakanon / Time if it was the sort of thing you killed ONCE and never had to come back ever again. Unfortunately they're not.]

Btw has anyone ever heard of Zone??


yep

This..they a bunch of morons...Amp groupies? This is the first time i have ever heard of them good or bad

Cant really say good or bad. Young and inexperienced, yes.

Ive come across a couple Zone people in PoK. Quite polite when begging for buffs, i still snobbed them off >;X

Nykks seemed to be a nice guide.. dunno if he is still around though :(

I know a GM named Grog who is like Brioma.

group A: Are you going to kill BoT_mini_01
player B: Yes, but my group is on the way
(6 hour wait)
group A: We're here and ready to kill it
player B: My group will be here soon
(3 more hours)
group A: ok, this is silly we're gonna kill it
player B: You can't, I'm camping it. I'll train you then petition and it will work!!!


This is fuckin goofy ... so all I have to do is sit at a mob and tell people I'm gonna kill it now and wait possibly days? And if somebody comes along to kill it I can train them with little more than a slap on the wrist?

I'm playing this game all wrong.

Sig too large

I say everyone do a /feedback and tell them their new GM sucks ass. Im sure that would get someones attention

I think I will brush up on my Monks FD skill...hell fire and brimstone...training has been approved by the A.Ro GM....finally I get some satisfaction.

Now thats some screwed up, repugnant crap.

I'm usually pretty supportive of GM's, they have a crap job. But this decision...actually, this lack of decision is just weak.

Personally, you guys were in the right. They hadn't engaged after an hour, their loss. Can't expect to hold something like that up.

The outcome sucks, the weak GM sucks. Things don't look good for Ay Ro with this putz as our GM.

Mebbe they're trying to condense servers by scareing people off?

Aalanek Bonesnapper
Overlord
Dragons of Mist

I don't see how this GM couldn't reimburse the beastlord at least, its still in the rules of conduct on the eqlive site (read #12.1):

eqlive.station.sony.com/s...sement.jsp (http://eqlive.station.sony.com/support/customer_service/cs_reimbursement.jsp)

He could have reimbursed the beastlord if he felt like it. Sounds like he's just a dunder head to me. I hope this doesn't continure :( Oh where has Brioma gone...

also, i don't see any changes in the rules of conduct:

eqlive.station.sony.com/s...onduct.jsp (http://eqlive.station.sony.com/support/customer_service/cs_rules_of_conduct.jsp)

notice 1.1

...how about letting the guys who've been camping the mob just have their spawn. It's not like the Beastlord epic is that contested -- you can't just come back.


My reason for wanting that mob was simple: The beastlord it is for is in the military and will be shipping off for Iraq soon. That spawn was likely his last chance to do the event before he left. Under those circumstances, I think them having an hour and a half to prep and initiate the event before we did it was beyond polite.

My reason for wanting that mob was simple: The beastlord it is for is in the military and will be shipping off for Iraq soon.He's leaving and he can't play? Cripes! Better get him an epic, quick!

Bad, bad, gming. Bad enough for me to send an email to the cs email addresss mentioned and to send a /feedback. I hope all of you who feel the same do the same.

All in all, the gm says "if you make me work, i'm gonna bitchslap you". And then lays out a policy guaranteed to make him work more. It's like he's daring the population to go hogwild on him so he can ban them.

On the plus side, i'll bet bohbo lasts no more than 3 months before getting banned.

Palimax > Sarcasm

imho Palimax = insensitive, mindless blob

Boo Hiss Palimax. It was just a gesture by his friends before he goes off to a very unpleasant place, thats all.

No need to get all nasty about it.

Desilous was a good GM for us lowbies at the time but I heard some stories about him dating someone in a high level ARO guild? :)

There will be NO more beastlord epics on aro until:

1) The Retard Decision is reversed by someone with a fucking clue

2) my account is terminated

3) My account runs out in april

My 55 mage will be killing that scout every 72 hours from now until april

HAVE A NICE FUCKIN DAY ASSHOLE GM!

Desilous was a good GM?

Ahashahahahahahahahahahahahahaah
hahahahahahahahhahahahahha

*breath*

hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Calaquendi,

go get'm tiger.

Boo Hiss Palimax. It was just a gesture by his friends before he goes off to a very unpleasant place, thats all.I don't deny that it was a nice jesture. I similarly don't deny being insensitive.

I do, however, think it was in poor taste to try to engage the mob because the other guild (which already had a dozen people waiting) wasn't working on your timetable.

This isn't some spawn that people fight tooth and nail over. It's a mob that's up REGULARLY. This is not some awful bottleneck for Beastlords like Ragefire used to be for Clerics. There is no need to race for this mob. It'll be up again in 72 hours, and likely nobody will be there when it spawns. If it was some loot-blocking mob that guild-x or guild-y was cockblocking you from killing, then, by all means, race away and to the victor goes the spoils... ...but that's not the case, is it.

It's sad that nobody else thinks, "Oh, you guys are here, go ahead, we'll get the next one" was a much better solution to all of this.

This is series of bad PLAYER decisions (on both sides), followed up by a poor GM decision.

Finally, while I have a great deal of respect for members of our armed forces, police, fire, and EMS who risk their lives to protect and save ours, I do not agree that being any of those people entitles you to special consideration as to who gets to kill an Iksar first... ...and I think it's in poor taste to play the hero card.

wait....i thought the reason we paid money to play this game was so things like this could be resolved. why does the GM sound so uninterested in fixing the issue. what other things do they have to do? let me think....you get paid to make sure there is fair play on the servers....am i now wrong about this.
o i loved the fact that you constantly asked what the policy was, to which you received no response.
sorry do you want fries with that? lates

He's leaving and he can't play? Cripes! Better get him an epic, quick!



Have a coke, smile and shut the fuck up Palimax. From everything I've heard you haven't earned any right to talk shit.

Have a coke, smile and shut the fuck up Palimax. From everything I've heard you haven't earned any right to talk shit.Pardon me, Vladius, but... ...who the fuck are you again?

Everything you've heard about me, huh? Oh, please, do tell. I haven't had a good laugh in a couple of days.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that the second group on the scene was busy "doing a good deed." They couldn't wait 3 days for their epic, so they tried to make the people there before them wait 3 days because they couldn't get their shit together fast enough.

How cool of them!

Instead they should have waited anothe couple hours for them to decide whether they would shit or git off the pot (yes the broken english is intentional). Please...they had 2x the number of people and were still not in go mode...

Get real Pali you would have done the same thing. You would have walked up, questioned them and then said..."Too F'ng bad, we're a go and you're getting the screw-job"

Get off your high horse and take a breath of fresh air.

Sheesh, always gotta be one in the bunch.

Get real Pali you would have done the same thing. You would have walked up, questioned them and then said..."Too F'ng bad, we're a go and you're getting the screw-job"100% Wrong. There's enough people on this server that know, without a doubt, I would have simply left the other guild be. "Good luck on your epic. If you need me, let me know."

Since you'll undoubtedly deny any witness from my current guildmates, try asking some of my ex-guildmates, the ones who wanted me to do a little less cheek-turning and a lot more racing and cock-blocking. Sorry, fucking people over in-game for personal gain is not my style.

I'll take fair, square, and "almost there" to the alternative any day of the week. I'm sorry you find my morals so repugnant.

I realize just seeing me posting likely gave you all the excuse you needed to be the angry little man you are, however try to complete my reply in your quote and it may make some sense to you(Well ok, it won't):


That spawn was likely his last chance to do the event before he left. Under those circumstances, I think them having an hour and a half to prep and initiate the event before we did it was beyond polite.

They couldn't wait 3 days for their epic

Exactly. They couldn't have done it three days later, whereas the other people could have. I think giving them over an hour to prep for the encounter was more than was necessary to justify taking the spawn. I would have said to get their shit together in 20 minutes or else they can get their asses back and prepared three days later. Giving an hour is way more than reasonable when the person the epic is for is leaving. No one was playing any hero card, he was explaining the situation. The guild wanted him to go away happy, but instead some shithead trainers and KSers steal all his work.

Kein Bojangles
Dragons of Mist

Crist0, I'm an angry little man with or without your posts to fuel my demons...

Let me respond again to your question without the sarcasm that MOST people managed to get.

You were saying:That spawn was likely his last chance to do the event before he left. Under those circumstances, I think them having an hour and a half to prep and initiate the event before we did it was beyond polite.My point is, other than a going-away present, if he's not going to be able to play, the epic doesn't do him much good, now does it? He can just as easily get an epic 0-72 hours *AFTER* he starts playing again as a welcome home gift.

Obviously, I'm a minority opinion on this, but hey, being a nice guy was never popular on this server.

Yeah, I mean god knows doing something in game for a reason other than phats for your pixelated character to use is just crazy thoughts.

What we should have said is "GFY dickhead, you're going overseas and wont be able to use that epic so we won't do a thing for you!", right?

I think that putting an epic weapon on mothballs as a going away present isn't a good reason to displace another group.

You think it was a noble thing to do for a guy going off to serve his country.

While I certainly see your point, I respectfully disagre.

I think you're being too utilitarian, Palimax -- while the guy certainly wouldn't get much use out of the epic, the pride that you feel when you complete a quest like that is its own reward. I'm sure we all know people who have worked or are working on their epic even though it's inferior to more easily obtained items. (The warrior and knight epics come to mind, by way of example.) Although it would be quite interesting to see the resulting arguments if mobs belonged to whoever 'deserved' them more. :)

As to the original poster, I think you should go over the head of this obviously moronic GM. Assuming everything you say is true (and there's no reason right now to assume otherwise), that guild was 100% in the wrong. They should all be ashamed of themselves.

Pardon me, Vladius, but... ...who the fuck are you again?


Have you even been deployed during a time of war? No? Good, stop whining and shut your sperm catcher.

Personally, I fail to see the correlation.

Oh! Sperm catcher, I get it. ROFL!@#! Jesus, you're funny. You should send your witty repertoire off to Reader's Digest or something. It's a hoot!Have you even been deployed during a time of war?Once again, I submit, that playing the "hero" card is a little pathetic. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with ANYTHING in this thread.

And, to answer your question, no, I have never served in the armed forces. I was never an age where I was draft eligible for combat (I was a baby at the end of Veitnam). I was in gradeschool during Iran/Lybia/Lebanon/Grenada. And despite heavy recruiting because of my ASVAB, I didn't join the volunteer army when I left High School, meaning it was mostly my friends who ended up going to places like Iraq, Somalia, Bosnia and Haiti. By the time the clock turned to Afghanistan, Kosovo and Iraq (again), I was in my 30's.

I appreciate the work our volunteer army does. If I were a religeous man, I'd light them candles or say little prayers for them; but I'm mostly a man of science - so I hope their Kevlar is in the right places, and hope enemy cartographers do shitty work and that old Russian T-72's run out of spare parts.

But I do not believe, not for a second, that being a member of the army, or your local police, or fire department, or department of public safety, or EMS, or department of corrections, or any other number of necessary and dangerous jobs entitles you to any bigger slice of the pie while playing video games.

I've said my peace on this: I disagree with how the situation was handled, and I think it's unfortunate it couldn't have turned out much better. I think everyone, GMs included, could have taken a different path of action that would have made their lives easier.

Several of you (Crist0, Valadius, others) disagree. I, respectfully, believe you're mistaken - and I do so without the need to launch personal attacks along the way.

Wrong, sir! Wrong! Under section 37B of the contract signed by him, it states quite clearly that all offers shall become null and void if -- and you can read it for yourself in this photostatic copy -- "I, the undersigned, shall forfeit all rights, privileges, and licenses herein and herein contained," et cetera, et cetera... "Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum," et cetera, et cetera... "Memo bis punitor delicatum"! It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal! You stole fizzy lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and sterilized, so you get nothing! You lose! Good day sir!

You're a crook! You're a cheat and a swindler! How could you do a thing like this, raise up a little boy's hopes and then dash all his dreams to pieces? You're an inhuman monster!

I said good day!

My point is, other than a going-away present, if he's not going to be able to play, the epic doesn't do him much good, now does it?


No....it's doesn't do him much good in game to get his epic if he is going away. However, it does give him that sense of accomplishment knowing that he worked his Iskar butt off for it.... and got it. I know when I got my epic I was on cloud nine for a few days. Everyone who has worked hard for their epic should be able to experience that feeling. ( I know, I know....It's just a game) When are you on that game you put your all into it.

After reading the log CristiO posted, it looked to me that the GM is not very attendtive. I saw several times someone ask if the GM is afk, because he/she wasn't responding. Many of times I saw CristiO ask if game policy has changed about their being NO camps in EQ. Again....the GM did not (or from what I remember reading) respond to his question. I was shocked to see what the player from "Zone" was saying in the chat that the GM set up, and yet the GM didn't say anything to him about his behavior in the chat channel.(he was being quiet rude) I'm sure he was upset about things, but he should of talked about it in a more "adult" manner. The GM should of reimbursed him for the pieces of his epic that he lost, instead of making him start all over again.

No....it's doesn't do him much good in game to get his epic if he is going away. However, it does give him that sense of accomplishment knowing that he worked his Iskar butt off for it.... and got it. I know when I got my epic I was on cloud nine for a few days. Everyone who has worked hard for their epic should be able to experience that feeling. ( I know, I know....It's just a game) When are you on that game you put your all into it.I agree 100%.

Of course, there were TWO people trying to get their epic.

Yes, and the other party was uncapable of killing the mob for over thirty minutes where my group was(voids pnp in case you are wondering, in order to call in a gm compromise both groups have to be able to kill the mob right then), we had special incentive to want to finish it, and tells did -nothing-. Are you noticing Tigaman's behavior in csr chat with a gm there? You want to take a guess as to his attitude in tells?

Where is this freeloving share the spawns and be happy Palimax coming from btw?

I mean, aren't you the guy that got so pissed XA had enough numbers on their own and killed a ST key dropper last summer? Pissed off enough that, even though the XA/Vision were just cooperating when they didn't have enough to do them on their own, you broke up the alliance over it?

Nice sig there Pali, like Willy Wonka huh??

Anyway, the other guild had an hour to prep. How friggen long dose it take to say run from the book in FV catch the boat, zone over, and get to that particular spawn?? i can swim from on side of that zone to the other in an hour, sounds to me they where HOPING someone was going to log in and they wanted to hold the spawn.

Greetings everyone!

Palimax, I had to respond to this thread mainly because this is the first time that I disagree with you.

We were all told by the all powerful CS that there are no camps. We were also told that a mob belongs to the first group that has the numbers to engage. By these rules the ZONE members KSed. I totally disagree with these rules as set forth by CS so I respect camps myself BUT by the rules they were in the right to start the epic battle as they did it.

The GM I think made a mistake that will be overturned. Probably a rookie GM. When asked repeatedly to clarify the rules, he would not. I believe because he didn't even know himself. He didn't even know that he could reimburse the epic piece. New GMs have to start somewhere but this decision (or lack of one) WILL be overturned.

BTW How long till the next GM rotation? I think this would be a good time for me to take a break from EQ. Just reading what was said by the GM makes me sad. Translation is "If you make me do my job, everyone involved will be punished."

That is TOTAL bullshit. It will be reversed because to not do so would result in anarchy. Non rookie GMs know that.

-Xeck-

Are the GM's paid?

From what I read, no decision whatsoever was made, the situation was avoided completely and it appeared to be a complete waste of time for both parties to even discuss the situation with the GM. From all my past experiences where GM's where involved, you can just about get away with anything as long as you don't curse in public channel...

Heh. I was just re-reading this:

Translation is "If you make me do my job, everyone involved will be punished."

Think of it like kindergarten.

Mirdorr...

The GM's are SOE employees and do get paid. The Guides are volunteers who also play EverQuest. They are required to invest at least 6 hours a week "guiding", or to put it another way... listening to everything from complaints about contested spawns to people wanting to "buy" a city for their own personal use.

GM's can are able to do many things, including but not limited to... FULL 100% rez (CS rez), return items lost through various reasons, refund experience due to documented bug or other problem, reimburse items lost through broken quests, and many other things too numerous to mention here.

The GM who handled the situation in this thread seems to be new to the job. A seasoned GM would have probably chastised both guilds for their behavior and then called it a "no harm, no foul" because both sides were contributing to the situation, as well as reimburse the item lost when the epic turn-in mob was killed.

A seasoned GM would not point fingers or try to "judge" the situation, but... would have checked the /report logs to find the member of the other guild who bragged about killing the mob so the epic had to be started over. This alone should have been reason enough to reimburse the item... as well as getting the offender a time-out in one of the Developer boxes and a quiet little chat with the GM.

Who was right, who was wrong? Was one more right than the other? Once the mob was killed and the player lost all his hard work toward his epic, the situation changed. That was vindictive and very much against the fair play rules. Yes, it could have been handled differently to a different outcome. I won't argue that. The first thing that came to my mind about the GM situation was this... When the GM went "afk", was he/she talking to someone else trying get an answer on how to handle the problem? And if so, were they told to "handle it"?

I was online the other night when Brioma broadcast her farewell message to Ay Ro. I may not have always agreed with some of her decisions, she was ALWAYS considerate and would take time to answer your questions and explain her answer if needed. I have not yet encountered the new server GM. I'm hoping that this one just got off to a bad start and will get better.

One last thing to consider also... do you know if the GM you talked to was truly the server GM, or was it a SWAT GM? A SWAT GM is a "roving" GM who bounces from server to server handling petitions during peak times when they get overloaded. If this was a SWAT GM, you stand a much better chance of getting a reimbursement due to a bad decision.

Good luck.

Well stated Zeck. Regardless fo whether or not we agree with the rules SoE has set up, I would hope that we can all agree that SoE's CSR (Customer Service Representatives) should enforce those rules consistently. This GM did not do that.

Palimax, let's get away from arguing about which group(s) were in the right originally and let's discuss the second issuue here: Zone's actions in training the epic event once it was begun and in killing the turn in mob, KNOWING THAT IT MEANT that the Beastlord would have to start over from square one on their epic quest. You stated early on that the GM "pooched" this one. I am curious how you think the GM erred. I am also curious about what actions you think should have been taken by the GM?

By the reasoning ( and I use the term very loosely) of the GM, the training and the killing of the scout (turn-in mob) were of no importance (a thought I find downright frightening).

I know im gonna get flamed for this comment but what the hell....Zone been taking a page out of Thana's book???

Still haven't seen a single Zone member post in response for the action of their Guildie....what does this say?

That they.... are all huge n00bs and dont know about the boards???

Master Damoiel Mindbend
Retired Enchanter of the 60th Season

They can't read?

What I like the most about this thread is how much Zone defend themself about it 0_o

I would really have loved to see there opinion about the GM decision. They could have least come and say they were pleased.

Well I guess none of them know this board exist. So we will never know there point of view :(

thats easy to fix...someone trolling the boards that actully playing find one and tell them its here. I would personally like to see their explanation also

Bring on the Zone.... AutoZone

bwhahaha /smirk

no orders on him just you so far Zark, sorry again

Edited by: Baltyn at: 4/20/03 16:20



You using that as a sig now? If not, you may as well.

Yes dart,

that is my sig.

note the date on it

you caught me im a time traveler

The date and time says 4:20

For the less enlightened.

What is 420? (http://www.drugprevent.demon.co.uk/420.html)

Instead of just someone from "Zone" I would love to see the response of Tigamon the Beast who did the training.

On second thought, I like this link better.

Some other Random Link (http://www.phish.net/faq/420copcode.html)

gootimes dart :)

I mean, aren't you the guy that got so pissed XA had enough numbers on their own and killed a ST key dropper last summer? Pissed off enough that, even though the XA/Vision were just cooperating when they didn't have enough to do them on their own, you broke up the alliance over it?Is this the "I have nothing I can possibly say about this thread, so I'm going to dredge up year and a half old mis-truths" post? It sure looks like it.

EA started to kill some of our alliance targets by themselves. (Something we could both already do.) I suggested we modify our alliance to remove the easier targets, leaving them FFA, and only continue to ally for the more difficult or time-consuming dragons.

At the time, the decision was made by the collective officers in our guild, and presented by me to EA through Korl. If he feels that I'm misrepresenting the situation, I'm sure you can ask him to post otherwise.Palimax, I had to respond to this thread mainly because this is the first time that I disagree with you.

We were all told by the all powerful CS that there are no camps. We were also told that a mob belongs to the first group that has the numbers to engage. By these rules the ZONE members KSed. I totally disagree with these rules as set forth by CS so I respect camps myself BUT by the rules they were in the right to start the epic battle as they did it.Xeck, I don't think we disagree as much as you think we do. I think the other guild should have engaged sooner. I think the GM completely fucked up his ruling. My only comment about this thread is tht the other group wanting the spawn should have probably just bailed on the situation the second they found a dozen people sitting in Timorous Deep.Palimax, let's get away from arguing about which group(s) were in the right originally and let's discuss the second issuue here: Zone's actions in training the epic event once it was begun and in killing the turn in mob, KNOWING THAT IT MEANT that the Beastlord would have to start over from square one on their epic quest. You stated early on that the GM "pooched" this one. I am curious how you think the GM erred. I am also curious about what actions you think should have been taken by the GM?100% absolutely without a doubt the <Zone> members (that's the guild, right?) acted in a reprehensible way. They admitted their actions, caught by /reports, and the GM should have done something. I've never disagreed that once push came to shove at that camp that the first group there acted terribly. By the rules we know for this game (outside of a bad GM call), Crist0's group acted 100% within the rules. I have never suggested they didn't. <Zone>'s group acted 100% like assholes. I have never suggested they didn't.

I have only suggested that the escalation of events could have been avoided much earlier.

Sorry, I didn't finish answering the last question.

I believe the GM should have done whatever it is when GM's catch people blatantly disrupting the gameplay of others. If it was within his power, he should have restored the lost item necessary to trigger the mobs, and issued warnings/suspensions/etc. to the people who caused it to be lost.

I seemed to stupid to discuss what happened AFTER the second group started their scripted event. I can't imagine anyone disagrees.

Thank you for your reply Palimax, I don't know you at all and I think it helps those of us who don't know you to know how you feel about everything that occurred so we can put your comments in perspective. I know it helps me better understand your position.

If I read you right, you are saying ONLY that no matter what the "technical" SoE rules are, at times there are better ways to handle some situations than are provided in those rules?

A wonderful GM I knew, who unfortunately retired from SoE employment (and went on to a career as an MP in the Air Force), used to preach that the application of common sense, reason and fairness would satisfactorily resolve most problems and that "the rules" should be invoked only as a last resort. I wish there was some way to get this concept accross to this GM (and SoE CSR's in general). It helped make that GM's server a pleasure to play on.

I think Dragons of Mist was completely right in what they did, Zone comes off totally wrong according to your story (although I'd like to hear their side). And the GM comes off worst of all.

If I read you right, you are saying ONLY that no matter what the "technical" SoE rules are, at times there are better ways to handle some situations than are provided in those rules?That's my point, yes.

Jury is still out on the GM in my book. Try looking at it from a "common sense" point of view, rather than the "how can I abuse the letter of the law to benefit myself" point of view.

If you see several groups of people waiting to start a scripted event, why wouldn't you leave, especially if you know that you can't start the event if they fail? I mean, that's a bunch of people that are sitting there trying to help a friend, having fun. It isn't like this is a guild competition, <ZONE> isn't going to pass you on the top-40 uberguild charts if they get a BL epic. And for starting the event knowing they were there waiting to do it, and knowing how easily they could fuck it up, frankly, you deserve to restart your epic. You basically dared them to fuck with you, thinking the GMs would be on your side. Maybe the GM caught on to that?

One group here childishly broke every rule in the book and gloated over it.. and the other one expected to have the letter of the law enforced, not the spirit, thinking teacher would come save them. Both groups were acting in a childish manner, and the GM called them out on it. The GM may not have articulated this well, but in the end, I bet he served his purpose. Would you start the event in front of a waiting group again, knowing that in all likelihood you are going to lose all your work?

If 20 level 50s are sitting by Faydedar trying waiting for a few more people and buffing, and I stroll up 3-boxxing and kill him, am I in the right? "First In Force" says yes, but common decency says no. I'd prefer to have a GM that has a sense of right and wrong and acts upon it, rather than one that mindlessly enforces the law.

Yea well it made me feel better. After speaking with friends and etc, it would be unfair to the many quality players/guilds to kill the scout with no discretion. therefore, my new policy is :

If any zone member is even near that scout when it spawns im killing it. Dont bring any zone members with you if your asking for help on this camp.

Suck on that tigaman. it wasnt tiga who did the train, though I'm certain he came up with the idea. the actual trainer was another bst member of zone. Tiga was the one who killed the scout. Darkkatt was there as well and is also guilty.

now tiga will have the scout killed every single time zone tries to get any bst their epics. kisses, tiga! I bet its real funny now huh bitch.

Zone - your panzy ass guild couldnt take the mob with twice the number we had and STILL waiting for more AFTER AN HOUR. step the fuck up to the plate shitheads. lets hear what youve got to say for yourselves..

Pali-

"He can just as easily get an epic 0-72 hours *AFTER* he starts playing again as a welcome home gift."

ASSUMING HE -LIVES- your not insensitive your stupid, myopic and self involved.

FUCK YOU GM Jackass!

At the time, the decision was made by the collective officers in our guild, and presented by me to EA through Korl. If he feels that I'm misrepresenting the situation, I'm sure you can ask him to post otherwise.

He's far too busy making up fake logs to do that, Palimax.


I'll get you back for that Korl, you scumbag. :(

/agree Palimax

Well said Santerre!!

What guild are you with Cal?..just curious

I understand you being mad about what these particular memebers of zone did, but, IMO you were ethically wrong starting it as well. Maybe not equally wrong, but wrong none the less.

Santerre,

yes, common sens and a perfect should work like that, but sadly the world isn't perfect. The fact the world is all screwed up is the main reason why humanity NEED a bunch of rules to work together.

We followed those rules, they didn't. Some member of "Zone" even tell us when it happen that they will Help us get their own guild mate be punished for what they did.

On a personal note, I don't play this game since years like most of you, but on my "newbie" status I've learned the hard way those rules cause (innocently) I tough the common sens will prevail, but it didn't.

The days I sat my butt in IC snow waiting for that darn Stormfeather, how do you think I felt when that drood just ran by and use Dire Charm on it? he go away with it leaving me with no choice but /petition to GM. What Was my answer from them ? Well They told me the SoE rule. I questioned them. At the end all i could felt was that they "teach" me how to KS according to those rule. I was gladly disappointed, but THATS the rules.

So having been screwed by them in the past several times I assumed they work the same for me as well.. Wouldn't you think ? Sheesh with let them over an hours with twice the force they need to kill it. We asked for them to do it or we will. they said they weren't going for it. So we did. Sheesh we were following those RULES that probably screwed up countless of people.

I agree with you about the common sens, but rules are rules and Jaanbax seem to have changed them without warning.

Sheesh is it very true that we are now in right to Train/KS/Ninja Loot/Broke Quest ???

It's obviously different when it's YOU involved in the spawns eh? Then we go from "oh can't we all share, let them have it" to "Oh, that wasn't me, it was all the other officers in my guild".

Your past conduct in similar matters is a little more than a "mistruth" i dredged up palimax.

Still no reply from <Zone> are they so ashamed of their guildies action that not a single officer has the decency to step forward and explain their action? We have clearly stated our position. Why hasn't <Zone> responded? I really am curious as to what <Zone> as a guild is thinking.

I think it's been made clear that <ZONE> as a guild doesn't think. In my opinion they react to situations only and generally in a base and childish manner.

It's a shame that there are people ingame/on server that act in this manner.

Silfried -

Simply put, two wrongs don't make a right. You can't deny that if your guild had deferred to the already assembled group, they would have saved themselves and the ZONE folks a lot of strife. If you truly believe the rules screw people, then you shouldn't be using those rules to screw others.

If officers of Zone exhibit the same depths of thought and communication demonstrated by the one who first joined the CR channel, I wouldn't expect much from them if they did post here. Still, they don't have a leg to stand on, really. I don't expect them to last long, getting off to such a start.

There is a problem with just letting a group sit there claiming a mob while they are not ready to take him down. They many never be ready. Say they're waiting for another cleric or whatever, but by the time he logs on and gets out there the only chanter has gone home. Respecting a camp is one thing, but you can't expect them to wait indefinitely. Giving them 20-30 minutes to engage is reasonable. They have their chance, take it or lose it.

I also don't want to play by different rules for different mobs. You know we do. Some zones have turned into FFA free for alls. We all know how it feels to have someone jump in front of you and take something you have earned by pulling god knows how many ph's or just waiting hours on the spawn. (Note, not the case here). I think giving a group a chance to take their mob is fair and moving ahead of them when they don't is equally fair.

If Zone was upset, the proper course was to petition at that time. I know they have no chance of a ruling reversing the events, but neither did their actions. Childishly destroying someone else's efforts is mean spirited and pathetic.

Maybe that kind of thing flies on a server with a calendar system. I understand on some servers, you have all day to take down a mob if it is "your" day to do so. Maybe the GM in question was on Legend$ or something before.

It's obviously different when it's YOU involved in the spawns eh? Then we go from "oh can't we all share, let them have it" to "Oh, that wasn't me, it was all the other officers in my guild".

Your past conduct in similar matters is a little more than a "mistruth" i dredged up palimax.My past conduct in such matter?

It caused problems if Tuesday's Klandicar was going to be a joint event, and Friday's Klandicar was going to be a FFA race, unless someone failed, and then it was going to be a joint kill, just so someone else didn't get him. It was a stupid, confusing and frustrating way to conduct an alliance -- so I suggested we take the easy dragons out of the deal, leaving things like Sontalak to be strictly joint ventures.

I'm such a terrible guy.

I stand by my statements. If I zoned into Tim Deep, and there were a dozen people already sitting at Raptor Island, I'd just do my friggin' beastlord epic another day. If I zone into Iceclad, and there's already people gathering around General Bragmir for an 8th shawl, I'll go do it another day. If I zone into GD and there's already people assembling for a Ringwar, even if I have 50 people who want to do it, all chomping at the bit for a second raid for the day, I'll do it another time.

Why? These aren't guild bottlenecks. These aren't things you have to compete for. These aren't ST keys. They aren't VT keys. They aren't elemental flags. There's a difference, and you don't get it.

Please continue to dredge up an 18 month old event that (a) you don't understand, (b) were never party to the conversation, and (c) has little to do with this thread.

I'm sorry the other group fucked over your beastlord, but, well, Karma's a bitch.

You're right, Palimax.

BTW, my level 2 Ranger camped in ToV gives me rights to all the mobs for as long as he's there, so none of you bitches better touch them.

And that is a good reason to want to help him finish his epic. OK I can see that. What the hell.

Did you mention that to the Zone people? Or are you bringing it up afterwards as part of a justification after the fact?

Dfrac

btw i spoke to a zone officer.. he/she did not know of the board at all so now the know at least.

jesus christ calaquendi take yer fuckin medication already.

fuckin spazz.

BTW one GM's decession does not mean it is a change in rules regarding claimed mobs.

every GM is different, i had GM's do different things in allmost every petition i have had.

i seen a gm suspend someone for KSing a mob, i have had gm's tell me there was nothing they could do.

Palimax, I do not dispute that in some circumstances it is best to let well enough alone and just move on. I even agree that there are times when just "using the rules" can be 'morally' wrong.

However, there are often additional considerations to your simple "moral rule" of "I showed up and they were there so I left it for them."

EXAMPLE:

Guild One wants to kill Tormax but upon arrival in Kael they discover Guild Two there (with less than sufficient force to kill Tormax). When asked Guild Two says they are gathering to kill Tormax. How long must Guild One wait after they are ready to go before asking that Guild Two step aside (where Guild Two remains over time without sufficient forces to engage Tormax with any likelihood of success)?

Are you saying that it is never proper to ask Guild Two to step aside (when that guild cannot gather sufficient power to kill Tormax after a reasonable time has passed)? Are you saying that just because they are there and claim they are after Tormax that Guild One should leave?

Does your answer change if Guild One has no idea whether Guild Two would ever have enough force to kill Tormax? Would your answer change if Guild Two is lieing and isn't really after Tormax at all (unfortunately some childish people in this game would do that)? Would your answer be different if Guild One waited patiently for two and one half hours (allowing for members of Guild Two to finish any LDoN adventures) and Guild Two still didn't have sufficient forces to kill Tormax?

I hope you get my point. If not, I will state it as clearly as I can. There are always many variables to be considered in determining a fair, just resolution to any dispute. When I sat as a Criminal Court Judge (I am 53 and a former lawyer and Judge Pro Tempore), I found that there was no such thing as an open and shut case. Likewise, there is no such thing as a rule that can be applied to avoid situations like this . . . WITHOUT BEING THERE. Punishment, however, can go a long way toward deterring the type of (Tigaman et al) conduct that caused the kind of heartache the DoM Beastlord has suffered. The GM was absolutely and unequivocally derelict in his duties in not, at a minimum, suspending Tigaman and whoever trained the ongoing epic event regardless of previous occurrences.

Someone posted that the GM maybe was using a 'two wrongs don't make a right' approach to justify his complete inaction. For anyone who thinks this is a valid approach for out GM's to take, think carefully about how you would feel if the criminal justice system in our country took that approach in deciding that no action at all is the proper course (rather than imprisonment) to take against someone who shot (with a gun) another person, keeping them from working for months due to the wounds, all because that other person had jumped ahead in a waiting line and bought the last item available at a store where the next shipment wouldn't arrive for three more days.

Frenzeed, 58th Monk
Rimwist, 51st Wizard (GL emeritus of Knights of Evermore)
Sllurpp, 46th Cleric

a proud member of Dragons of Mist - Ayonae Ro

Are you saying that it is never proper to ask Guild Two to step aside (when that guild cannot gather sufficient power to kill Tormax after a reasonable time has passed)? Are you saying that just because they are there and claim they are after Tormax that Guild One should leave?For the most part, in my book, is that if it's something simple, something repeatable, and something you don't HAVE to fight over, then you just walk away from it and come bck tomorrow.

Tormax, in your example, isn't one of those things. (And, that assumes that Tormax still *is* a big deal for you, and he seems to be for all but the top handful of guilds.)

I think you annouce that you're there, you want him too, and that to the best pulling team goes the spoils.I hope you get my point. If not, I will state it as clearly as I can. There are always many variables to be considered in determining a fair, just resolution to any dispute.This isn't exactly news to either of us :)

So many variables exist for what course of action to take that examples like yours can hardly do the actual scenerios any justice.

I'm not opposed to confrontation and competition for spawns in this game -- I just don't see this particular one as the sort of think worth fighting over.

I think Rimwist makes a very valid argument here. How long does another group have to wait for the other group to engage the mob if they do at all. For all we know the dimwits from <zone> had no intentions of killing the mob at all, or maybe they wanted to save the mob till everyone logs on 4 hours later. Sure DoM could have left well enough, and maybe 30 minutes was not long enough (I don;t particularly care on that point). The point is <Zone> did not have the force to take the mob down, and it is in serious question if they even would have at all.

<Zone> could have informed all the people in DoM exactly what their plan was and what they are waiting for, and in fact that would have been the smart plan. Like they didn;t notice the build up of DoM troops in the zone . . . and had no clue what would happen if they sat there watching the mob. Did anyone in Zone even try to work it out with DoM? I understand zone's position because i have been on many a raid where we lost the race to a spawn becuase we simply could not put out any troops to engage, however lets be real you can;t claim a spawn you might not even be able to knock down past 90%. How many times has anyone here on this board lost a mob becuase they can;t mobilize themselves. People have been debating the whole uber guild thing lately and you know what seperates uber guild from the rest? Uber guild get people to the target fast and do what they need to do. Zone thinks they are somehow entitled to sit on this mob and pick their nose while they try to get people to show up.

Zone is as at fault as DoM for the first problem (DoM "stealing" the Mob). No excuse for training them and killing the turn in mob. I don;t care how mad you are that is just stupid.

The GM had his head up his rear, lets face it folks . . .

I doubt that your friend will get his epic progress reimbursed (although dissapointing) the GM's in EQ have horrible support, half the time not responding to your reports/petitions, and the other half carrying out the problem and making it worse... I have heard many stories like this where the screw you over, and NEVER heard a GM resolve a similar story... If you have spent countless hours (like your bst friend) and get fucked over like this, resulting in a restart of the epic, while the GM's sit there and pick each others ass cracks... now thats support... I stopped taking my issues (other than name changes) to GMs, because its a waste of time...

-Goodluck to you all on further GM issues-

-Ickabob Krayne-

You did miss part of my point Palimax, when you said this:

For the most part, in my book, is that if it's something simple, something repeatable, and something you don't HAVE to fight over, then you just walk away from it and come bck tomorrow.

In this quote you list YOUR criteria for determining whether to walk away or whether to the best pulling team goes the spoils. A major part of my position is that situations that fit your stated criteria AS APPLIED TO YOU, do NOT fit the same criteria WHEN APPLIED TO OTHERS or when applied to UNIQUE CIRCUMSTANCES. What you see as "simple" others may see as difficult (or, conversely, they may see it as absolutely trivial).

You infer that the Bst epic fight that is the topic in this thread is simple, repeatable and doesn't have to be fought over. This inference (I know personally) is based on VA having done this event, i.e. your personal situation. You also infer that Tormax may not fit this criteria (your condescending comments on Tormax I will ignore as unnecessary and unworthy in a reasoned discussion). I assume that your comments on Tormax are based on your personal experiences as well.

[Aside:]I used Tormax in my example only because I had watched my son's guild on Sol Ro (they regularly kill Emporer Ssra and Tormax was a breeze) get into a pissing match about who was going to take on Tormax when another guild took almost an hour to marshall anough force to make an attempt (they wiped).

So, without being condescending (if you can) and without trying to create another angle to deflect this discussion, please tell me how you arrive at your position that the Bst epic event here is simple etc, and Tormax is not? Is it that Tormax is a 7 day spawn and the epic is "only" a 3 day spawn (meaning that you can't "come bck [sic] tomorrow" to either btw)? Is it the size or levels of the raid force needed to take the mobs down (gueas that depends on the guild doesn't it)? Is it the knowledge needed to be successful? Is it the "ease" with which the guilds present can "win" each fight based on the previous considerations? I am interested sincerely in your answer. Personally, I don't see enough difference in these situatins (I am assuming both guilds able to do them) to see why the epic is a walk away and Tormax is not.

But, before you answer, since you have inferred that the Bst fight in TD is such a breeze, I must tell you that I was with VA when VA did this part of the Bst epic (with at least 15 to 18 people if I remember correctly) a while back and it certainly didn't appear to be all that easy. VA wasn't flawless by any means (I was glad I could FD several times during the fights) and to my eye the fight(s) did not progress entirely smoothly (though they were successful).

I know that VA has made wonderful progress since then, and for this I applaud both VA as a whole and my personal friends in VA. My point is that back then, this epic fight was not as simple for your own guild as is today. Please keep that in mind when you answer (if you answer).

Frenzeed, 58th Monk

Dragons of Mist, Ayonae Ro

Wow! Someone that talks logic and doesn’t swear in every other sentence. Am I in the right forum?

Santerre

And thats why we let them more than twice the amount of time to start there bst epic before they do. But since it seem they were going to stay there all night. We didnt just run to make turn in first like a bunch of jackass.

And about how I think the rule screw people on Camp is this. If the say "spawn" isnt up yet and someone is there "camping" it waiting he spawn then fine he earn the right to get it imo. BUT if the say "spawn" is up for over an hour then its different matter. Im sure you see the distinction between the two.

and yeah if the situation A doesnt occur, big chance the situation following it wont happen either...

So, without being condescending (if you can) and without trying to create another angle to deflect this discussion, please tell me how you arrive at your position that the Bst epic event here is simple etc, and Tormax is not? Is it that Tormax is a 7 day spawn and the epic is "only" a 3 day spawn (meaning that you can't "come bck [sic] tomorrow" to either btw)? Is it the size or levels of the raid force needed to take the mobs down (gueas that depends on the guild doesn't it)? Is it the knowledge needed to be successful? Is it the "ease" with which the guilds present can "win" each fight based on the previous considerations? I am interested sincerely in your answer. Personally, I don't see enough difference in these situatins (I am assuming both guilds able to do them) to see why the epic is a walk away and Tormax is not.Yes. Somewhere between 1 person, 1 second, 1 firebeetle and 72 people, 7 hours, one pantheon of gods there's a line between walk away and fight for it.

That line moves up and down, further from the firebeetle or the gods depending on a laundry list of other factors.

And yes, to me, the beastlord epic (which I've participated in [for an alt]) is closer to the firebeetle and King Tormax is closer to the pantheon of gods.

I could essentially re-phrase your question in the form of an answer. Yes. To me, it's a factor of almost every question you asked. Spawn time, difficulty, guild-power, numbers...

This is, "Will you sleep with me for a million dollars?" and then ariving that, obviously, I'm a $20 whore because all sex for money makes me so.

First serve...


That's how everythings boiling down to nowadays, whether it be Venril Sathir, King Tormax, Cazic Thule (PoFear), Saryn, or Aullife Chaoswind.

Look how many people leapfrog on those BoT mobs despite people working their way upto it nowadays.

Do I agree you should have jumped ahead of them? Not entirely, that was a hastey decision because one of your friends/guildies was shipping out.

Do I agree that they should have trained you? Not at all, that was just outrageous, irregardless, but such is the cultural abyss that slowly leaks their way here.

Do I agree with the GM's decision? Without a shadow of a doubt no. It was silly and very "newbish", you call a GM to get settlements dealt with, not un-dealt with.

However, as been said, leapfrogging people, even if it's a half hour you've been waiting for them to kill, is still abit crude and selfish. You can justify it all you like, but it's called the Play Nice Policy for a reason, the reason is: to play nice. Jumping over people gathering is not a nice thing. Then again training you afterwards was not a nice thing, either.

The way I see it, is through the rules (which Gm's are guided by), your Beastlord should have been at the very least, rewarded with the piece that was "gimped" from him/her. But you would have to wait the spawn time again anyway.

So what has been learned? Well nothing new, that's for sure. People will get trained, corpse-locked, die from Linkdead. Take a lesson from those two oh-so important words "play nice", and hopefully lead by example into a new age of peacefully slaughtering mythical beasts.



Orun

Hello This is DarkKatt the Leader of The guild Zone
Ok first off we were told by the GM NOT TO DISCUSS
Anything that happened that day and to Drop it .
Or we and the members of DOM would be banned
Thats why it has taken so long for a reply to most of the Guild bashing Because we Have told all members not to post for that reason but i just cant sit her and listen to all this BS
we were in TD for no MORE the 30 MIN'S MAX when DOM zoned in and SAID i QUOTE DO THE TURN IN NOW OR WE WILL ) We told them that 2 members were killed on the way to TD and we were waiting for them to show they waited no more then a total time of 5 Min's after entering TD before Doing the Turn-in what Tigaman did was Wrong and has been dealt with by the GM he did not get off Scott free on this he was warned 2 times once for killing the scout and once for bragging about killing it / laughing he gets one more warning he's gone After they died we as Officers Offered a 96% rez and sent Apologies to them and even offered to do the epic quest for the BL that needed it we as Noobs can do it in 3 days max if the scouts are up then one of there members told us to Fu_k off and would never take a rez from us this could have all gone very well for them if they would have not Give us a DO IT NOW or else /ooc we would have gladly let them have this scout if they would have said he was leaving and it was his last chance to get it it's not a rare spawn it's there all the time it's really not a big deal (But no they had to be pricks about it and slam the guild all 198 members becuse of one bad group it kinda sounds like DOM is a bunch of name calling kids who just ditched school this is not a way to handle anything in EQ my god it's a Game not real life and then to make it even worse you as DOM have to get on a message board and LIE to everyone just to make your selfs Look better then us and as of to-date no one has quit zone over this if you didn't noticed (NotoriousRaptor) was not in ZONE when this happened. i'm not taking up for my guild in what they did i myself think it was wrong to kill the scout after they did the turn in but it was also wrong to even show up after we said it was camped you set on a spawn for that long and let me come in and tell you to kill it or else and you too would be pissed off Bottom line is it's Called Respect for other players in the Game and no Zone is not a Uber Guild and has never claimed to be one we are just a bunch of guys and girls who like to hang out and play EQ and Raid a few mobs along the way..... if you want to know anything else about this something i might have left out just ask no need for a war over a 72 hour spawn =)

Well Palimax, you have definitely proven to me that you cannot take part in a discourse without being arrogant and condescending.

You may not re-phrase my question the way you try to and have it be even remotely the same question. If you feel you are in a damned-if-you-do and damed-if-you-don't position, then it is because of your own answers, not my questions.

After almost two years as a Guide (I am retired from that now) I found that the "rules" and "play-nice" HAD to be applied flexibly to the facts of a given situation. I also found that, just as in the real world, those who intentionally harmed others (i.e. the criminals) needed to be punished to deter future similar actions. I will never waiver from those beliefs.

If you asked me what I would have done in the place of my guildmates who were there, my answer would be that I don't really know since I wasn't there and I don't know everything that went on. I also would say, however, that knowing my guildmates and knowing them to be of high moral character, I support their decision in full unless and until someone proves to me beyond a reasonable doubt that they were in error.

To convince me of any possible error by them, you (or anyone) would need to use arguments based on the facts of the situation, not merely offer crude, caustic opinions based only on generalizations crafted from your own personal play experience, your conjectures and your massive conceit. Despite all your condescension and arrogance, I was trying to give you an opportunity to set aside your arrogance and your condecension and to reasonably and logically support the caustic comments you spread throughout this thread.

I see now that I misinterpreted your reply to my inquiry about whether I understood your position. I believed that it meant you could calmly and politely discuss a topic. In fact, it seems clear now that it only meant that you thought that you had convinced me of the correctness of your position. You clearly are incapable of either reason or logic, except when twisted and intertwined with your own brand of "I am always right and the rest of you are beneath me." For that error I apologize to the readers of this thread.

Frenzeed, Rimwist, Sllurpp

Dragons of Mist, Ayonae Ro

<Zone> could have informed all the people in DoM exactly what their plan was and what they are waiting for, and in fact that would have been the smart plan. Like they didn;t notice the build up of DoM troops in the zone . . . and had no clue what would happen if they sat there watching the mob. Did anyone in Zone even try to work it out with DoM? I understand zone's position because i have been on many a raid where we lost the race to a spawn because we


If zone would have had time or been ask anything we would have worked it out this was a clear case of Jumping the gun they see the scout and went for it there was not time to tell them what we were doing Like they didn't know already and the second part we had way more then enough people to to this and they knew it Me and StoneFang did this with 4 people it's not a very hard one to do trust me .. we where there 30 min's max like i said before ask a GM to send you a log of that day i'm Very sure there all talking about it they can give you a Time we were in the zone and it was no way even close to 1 hour and also ask a GM how long DOM was in the zone before they died I swear to GOD it was less then 5 Min's only reason we didn't do the turn in right then was because 2 iskar members died on the way they already had rezzes and were zoning in when DOM did the Turn in right in front of us.. once again it was not right for a member to train them but Damn how rude can you Be

Well Palimax, you have definitely proven to me that you cannot take part in a discourse without being arrogant and condescending.Well, I don't deny that, but I'm not sure you're reading my post with what I intended when I wrote it. I certainly didn't try to be anything except direct when answering your question.

So, to answer this:You may not re-phrase my question the way you try to and have it be even remotely the same question. If you feel you are in a damned-if-you-do and damed-if-you-don't position, then it is because of your own answers, not my questions.The problem was, your question was rhetoric, mostly. You ask, (and I'm going to edit out the fluff)....please tell me how you arrive at your position that the Bst epic event here is simple etc, and Tormax is not? Is it that Tormax is a 7 day spawn and the epic is "only" a 3 day spawn... ...Is it the size or levels of the raid force needed to take the mobs down... ...Is it the knowledge needed to be successful? Is it the "ease" with which the guilds present can "win" each fight based on the previous considerations?The answer to your question is: YES. In short, I can't answer your question without repeating it back to you, replacing the question marks with periods.

It is because the beastlord epic step is simple. It is because Tormax is a longer spawn, requires a larger raid force, requires knowledge of the encounter, isn't as "easy," and, more directly, because it is different. It is because of exactly the things that you ask in your question.

I apologize that I can't answer your question without using what you already wrote into it. It's like asking, "What makes this building a greater engineering feat? Is it because it's taller? More cement? More advanced archetecturally?"

Somewhere between "ok, if you're gonna kill this firebeetle, I'll kill a different one" and "first person to Plane of Time-B wins" lies every encounter in the game.To convince me of any possible error by them, you (or anyone) would need to use arguments based on the facts of the situation, not merely offer crude, caustic opinions based only on generalizations crafted from your own personal play experience, your conjectures and your massive conceit.Au contraire, mon frair! I've been a participant on these boards long enough to know one thing -- the people participating in the threads are seldom likely (at least in public) to reverse their positions on an issue. I have no illusions of anyone on these boards jumping the fence. Someone brought the topic up, and I gave my opinion on the matter, and, it seems more than anything else, that it's MY opinion that's on trial here.Despite all your condescension and arrogance, I was trying to give you an opportunity to set aside your arrogance and your condecension and to reasonably and logically support the caustic comments you spread throughout this thread.I've given what I believe is my logic behind my reasoning. I'll re-state it.

[W..........|..........F]

W is for Walk Away
F is for Fight

Every head-butting encounter in this game falls *somewhere* on that line, with most of them in a big gray area in the middle. It is my opinion that that part of the beastlord epic falls somewhere to the left of the middle, and that the Tormax situation you describe falls somewhere to the right of the middle.I see now that I misinterpreted your reply to my inquiry about whether I understood your position.Rimwist, I think it's my last post you misunderstand. I've given my opinion on the matter, and I certainly understand yours. I don't ask that anyone change their mind, and there's obviously no clear cut right or wrong here.

Also, I've said a half a dozen times here that the END result of the situation was terrible. There's no excuse, EVER, for training, kill-stealing, or generally borking someone elses event. ONCE the decision was made to start the scripted event, the group that interfered with the scripted event is in the wrong. I have no objection with the board's consensus that AFTER the script was triggered that the first group was WAY out of line. I have only ever said that an hour earlier, the second group on the scene should have probably walked away.

I'm happy to have a civil, rational, discussion on most any topic here... ...but I won't promise that any of them are sarcasm, exageration, or bias-free.

Let me also say in closing that I don't feel a need to say "my opinion," "in my experience," "to the best of my knowledge," or other disclaimers before I write things. I can only hope that people reading what I write know that everything I offer is exactly that. It is my opinion, based on what I've learned in game, on what I learned in life, school and work.

With tolerance for Valarian

I'd have to throw in with Palimax on this one.

Take a look at the Cleric epic for example in and of itself in the past and the clusterfuck of hate and spite that was Ragefire.

How often did you see anyong pissing and moaning because soandso ninja'd Lord Begurgle or whatever that fucks name is. If you saw a cleric sitting there camping it, you left. But you had lines for Ragefire. Why?

It was essentially the same with the wizard epic. If you saw 7 people gathering for Phinny, you left. He's an 8 hour spawn, no biggy. On the other hand, back in the day, we'd sit by VS for 3 hours just to get him off the Euro time slot (F DW! CN 4 life!)

Though we never sat in Trak's lair overnight like some lamers (Hi L2!! /hugs).

For those still suckered in by the fact the guy was shipping off, let's put it this way.

If he wanted the epic just so he could sell his character for more on ebay, would you still say he was in the right? (Reguardless of the fucknuts that ZONE are and what they did.) Who would you be rooting for if it was Weolf we were talking about (Come on Fandros, feel the dark side...).

It would be nice to have the zone logs to see the time line and whether it supports <Zone> or the DoM position.

What is obvious is that when DoM entered zone and found another group already there, with the intent of doing the epic mob they were also after, DoM showed their intent was to get what they came for by staying and imposing their sense of what amount of time was acceptable to wait. It seems doubtful that <Zone> was going to be able to do the event once DoM entered the area unless they rushed to meet the DoM pressure.
This was wrong.

Once DoM initiated the encounter, <Zone> should have pulled back and immediately petitioned even tho most of us doubt it would have done any good. Perhaps now that they know of this board they will get screenshots of any such future poor play and let folks see and judge with a bit more info to go on. But their actions once the event was started were despicable, and allowing the offending party to carry the tag speaks volumes about the character of the leadership. This was wrong.

Both groups committed errors in judgement, and this entire situation need not have happened.

Using the "noble purpose" of helping a friend to rationalise jumping in front of an already present group is simply wrong; they may also have been doing just such a thing, for all you know. (And as a disabled vet, I do grow weary of that card being played)

And, behaving like a spoiled punk kid throwing a tantrum and ruining someone else's party like the <Zone> member did has served only to cast his entire guild into a bad light.

Yes, those logs of the zone sequence of events would really be nice to see. What amount of time transpired?
What information was shared in /ooc and /tell? Who did what and when?

But the fact remains, both groups had a hand in this mess, and as poor a response as they received from the GM may be, it can be argued that they brought it on themselves.

Like Orun pointed out, you can always Play Nice.

From the guildchat I saw, DoM was there for well over 5 minutes. I myself was a bit distracted though, Phinny had just popped and I was trying to fin someone to help kill him. It was at least 20 minutes from when I logged on and said Phinny would be up soon (They told me they were gathered in TD to do the epic) until I heard anything about this mess.

No idea what actually transpired, but it would indeed be nice if either side had logs of the event.

Had a similar situation happen to me with my epic.

Camped RF in Solb for 18+ hours was a monk friend and I. 2 hours before RF spawns an other toon logs in (a druid) and say this camp is taken. Well by there was no way I was going to give up the camp, I was there 18 hours already and this person clearly had the spawn time down and had just logged there. So who was in the right her or me???

Now for some reason the agro down there was screwy, every now and then I would see the king’s pet wander off the side and fall into the lava. I was all the way against the wall there was no way in hell I was going to get agro after waiting this long but the other cleric was closer and apparently got the king's pets attention cause we got dead REAL quick.

Well the druid sent me a tell to consent so and so, and I did come to find out there was a cleric logged out there also. After all was said and done the cleric decided to petition me for training.

Now I was nowhere near the king’s pet, I had been watching this thing for 18 hours so I know I was in the clear where I was. But the this other person petitioned me for training on her assumption that the monk who was FD right at RF spawn point was I also. Bastard was fell asleep at the keyboard so I know it wasn’t him.

Brioma shows up and lays the law down and this is EXACTLY what she said. There are NO camps in EQ, but there are and will contested mobs such as this one. SOE will not tell one or the other party to leave. The Mob goes to he who turns in FIRST. Play nice cause if I have to come back here neither one of you is going to like it.

Other cleric was livid and I was pretty pissed also. So we both got right up to the spawn point and didn’t move. By this time my lazy ass friend woke up and then started laughing at what had happened...unfortunately he did it in /say so numb nuts (other player) decide to try to get us kicked form the zone yet again. Brioma showed back up in a matter of 5 mins... and restated that where turn in mobs are concerned that it didn’t matter who was there for how long he who did the turn in first won

Ok first off we were told by the GM NOT TO DISCUSS
Anything that happened that day and to Drop it .
Or we and the members of DOM would be banned


Even -if- the gm had told this to me(they did not, nor did they tell YOU that because you were not involved in the csr mediations, unless you are tigaman...are you tigaman?), I would still post this. Since when have GMs started giving gag orders? What they said is on the log in the original post. From what I understand, it was also -you- Darkatt, who trained our group that was doing the cycle(I was verifying that your guildmember did indeed kill our scout when the train hit, so I am going off of my guildmate's information in this).


we were in TD for no MORE the 30 MIN'S MAX when DOM zoned in and SAID i QUOTE DO THE TURN IN NOW OR WE WILL


What you mean is, you personally were in the zone for no more than thirty minutes before we zoned in, buffed up, waited on you for thirty minutes, then told you to either engage the spawn or we would, at which time you responded(again) you were still lacking in numbers. I have a screenshot of Tigaman telling me you had been there for an hour and a half before this happened, if you still want to lie about it.

Also, if Tigaman had received 3 warnings he would have been -banned-. That is what happens when you get three warnings on your account.

As for this:


if they would have not Give us a DO IT NOW or else /ooc we would have gladly let them have this scout if they would have said he was leaving and it was his last chance to get it it's not a rare spawn it's there all the time it's really not a big deal


I approached your raid force about this spawn and the only thing I got back was "gfy we will take all the time we want, the spawn is ours and we are just waiting for more". The same attitude which is present in the csr log, I might add. As for none of your guildmates/raid party leaving the guild over this or offering to be a witness -for us against you-, I have also have a screenshot of this that shows differently.

Palimax, thank you for a logical, rational response.

Currently looking for a host for those screenshots, however the mirror thread on the crucible has some of the screenshots attached, which speak for themselves. In the future try not to lie about this sort of thing Darkatt, especially when someone has already mentioned they have screenshots of the matter.


It will save you from digging a deeper hole for yourself.

Palamax said:
I'm not going to sit here and pretend that the second group on the scene was busy "doing a good deed." They couldn't wait 3 days for their epic, so they tried to make the people there before them wait 3 days because they couldn't get their shit together fast enough.

I agree with you. Player get so involved in me me me. They don't look outside the situation and see what can be done for the better of them all. Group A was there and waiting on more. Why didn't group B offer to help group A? so 3 days later Group A may no have the number and Group B may offer to help? or group A help group B so next time they don't have to wait round for 2 hours to get the numbers? I think the GM is tell you guys to look for more creative ways to solve your problems. instead of poking each other with a stick and yelling for mommie to punish the other one not accepting the getting poked and poking back.

Look how much time you guys wasted. mob could of been dead and one of you guys could of been hitting another target or getting EXP or finding a new Cyber partner. instead you wasted everyones time.

Read the thread Faervas...I know it's tough, but actually read the entire thing..and you might have your questions answered. Possibly even two posts above yours, of all things.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jmdeverhardt/1a.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jmdeverhardt/2a.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jmdeverhardt/3a.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jmdeverhardt/4a.jpg


Care to rephrase your statements on the matter Darkatt? Or are you sticking to your story still?

/sings Its getting hot in herre so take off all your clothes.....

Dear Crist0:

Faervas composes letters so slowly that I *guarantee* that the post two above his, which was put in 40 minutes before his post, wasn't posted yet ;) .

I'm guessing an hour and 10 for those three paragraphs (well two paragraphs plus the quote)... :P

And just to contribute to the silliness:

/sings Boy it's getting so hot, I'm gonna take my clothes off :P

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

I agree with you. Player get so involved in me me me. They don't look outside the situation and see what can be done for the better of them all. Group A was there and waiting on more. Why didn't group B offer to help group A? so 3 days later Group A may no have the number and Group B may offer to help? or group A help group B so next time they don't have to wait round for 2 hours to get the numbers? I think the GM is tell you guys to look for more creative ways to solve your problems. instead of poking each other with a stick and yelling for mommie to punish the other one not accepting the getting poked and poking back.

Lol why don't you just fucking buff someone who asked nicely instead of causing a bitch fest and then bringing it to NAG? Practice what you preach, goddamn.

Why can't people just go find someone else to buff them when it is explained to them that they are not available to buff?

This is like a homeless guy going to city hall to complain that you didn't hand him some cash at the intersection he was standing at.

umm...Lyrik...wrong thread i think there dude

/sings Boy it's getting so hot, I'm gonna take my clothes off :P

:lol

Silliness?!?! Me silly, NEVAH!! :D

but, well, Karma's a bitch.

I dont see how karma has anything to do with this....



there are 2 groups involved here. 1 was impatient, the other was childish.

getting beat to the draw is no excuse to turn into a screaming baby. I don't care how trivial the encounter is.


Though I'm sure this whole situation would have been much better off if the later group had just left the first group alone, I firmly believe training people and killing a quest mob in use is completely unacceptable, period.

Nothing excuses what ultimately happened.

And the GM sucks.

First I would like to thank Darkkat for responding to the posting of this incident. Secondly, I again would like to thank Darkkat for the effort put into his post (looks like Amp don't it). Again thank you for your sincerely written post.

Nihou!

Quote Palimax-
With tolerance for Valarian


/raise eyebrow



With Tolerance For Moderation In All Things...Unless It's Fun...

Valarian

Well sorry to say that the guild Zone already has a bad rep for most of the higher level guilds. I know that the guild leader is rude, and uncoothe. He also has no reguard for anyone but himself and is using his guild to get more gain in everquest because no guild will take him with his reputation he has from the various guilds that he ahs been in before. He has burned alot of bridges and alot of people think very lowly of Zone Guild members. True they might not be like their guild leader, but as they say "birds of a feather flock together".

I hope though that there are no more future problems between the guild Zone and other guilds, but a guild leader who is quick to insult guilds like SoT, EW, LotJ, LS, and even RIP will soon find more enemies then allies. Plus it isn't too good to see Zone's guild leader spamming PoK for new recruits. Bad form.

but a guild leader who is quick to insult guilds like SoT, EW, LotJ, LS, and even RIP will soon find more enemies then allies.

Heh, I'm sorry but I just had to /laugh at the 'and even RIP' part...

I dont have anything against RIP, but based on some of the threads in this forum it seems... odd... to put that in there...

A seasoned GM would have probably chastised both guilds for their behavior and then called it a "no harm, no foul" because both sides were contributing to the situation, as well as reimburse the item lost when the epic turn-in mob was killed.


Actually, according to the very rules set down by SoE, DoM did absolutely nothing wrong.

Is leapfrogging right? Shrug. But according to SoE there isn't one bit wrong with it.

This right here is what i'm talking about i am very good friends with most the people in over half the guilds you just listed i have never been in any of them guilds you listed and have NEVER bashed one of them where do you even come off saying something like this ? is this just one more way to lie and get people on your side here ? come on guys lets be real here no one bashes that many guilds and gets away with it i think you guys are reaching for something else now beyond the TD scout now are you wanting a war ? is that it because i'm not going to give you one i play this game for fun like i said i have a lot of friends in other guilds i don't make a habit out of burning bridges or trying to slam other guilds this was not only a LIE but total BS on your guilds part to even bring something like that up and as far as screen shots? i to can edit pictures so now what ? i think you really need to chill out on this crap your tossing around about Zone being a new guild full of losers hell most of us in zone are from other guilds that went down from smart asses just like yourself Like my mom said once when i was a little kid if you have to LIE to get something is it really worth having ? i posted a plan and simple letter telling my side of the story and you have nothing to say about it so you find other things to talk about now like bashing other guilds if thats true why didn't you ever post it here way wait so long or in till we pissed you off to post something like that? just another way of showing you are full of it and if you keep bringing up lies i think the readers of this forum are going to see right through your lies. so bring on your edited Screen shots ask a GM online how long your guild was in the zone before all 6 of them died thats has to be logged somewhere i'm sure they can get it for you and by looking at your last screen shots i can see that you do a shitty job of editing so you better work on them for awhile before posting them

sweet jesus

Paragraphs man, paragraphs. If you actually want people to read what you right, make it so it doesn't give us headaches.

1) Neverqwest is not in DoM, as far as I know. He seems to be strung out.

2) I read the first sentence or two of your post, then I quit. It simply scrambles the brain to see massive posts without any punctuation, spelling, or grammar checks. Sorry if you're European or whatever, but I just couldn't manage it.

Oh, and I meant to spell write as right there, its a pun...

....yeah...

look over there!

*runs away*

Hehe this is what i'm talking about why waste anymore time here, all you guys want to do is smart off like a bunch of Punk kids try to come up with an adult responce to one of my post already ..... will you ? Wait i get it your all like 14 right ? come on tell the truth shit i forgot you cant

you have lied so much now you dont know what the truth is anymore......

Owww my head why do people do it... Suddenly Amplifyre doesnt seem quite so bad anymore...

Master Damoiel Mindbend
Retired Enchanter of the 60th Season

Actually this goober posts just like Amp. Can someone tell me when the hell did they change the rules of punctuation? Oh and why is that when ever someone pulls up SS of a conversation the other side ALWAYS says those are doctored Screen Shots

Dark is really Amplifyre in disguise. If there were two non-stoned people in the world who wrote like that, the English language itself would commit suicide.

those screenshots look fairly real to me.

whee! for your viewing delight :

Darkaat says nay actually darkaat asks, he has alot of questions -

"This right here is what i'm talking about i am very good friends with most the people in over half the guilds you just listed i have never been in any of them guilds you listed and have NEVER bashed one of them where do you even come off saying something like this ? is this just one more way to lie and get people on your side here ? "

could I get a list of the lies please - if you have them categorized so well as you seem to. I myself have only seen lies coming from and out of Zone. please note I infer dark is posting this in the context of believing the person who fingered him for bad conduct over time with many guilds is a member of DoM, as he subsequently states below!

"come on guys lets be real here no one bashes that many guilds and gets away with it i think you guys are reaching for something else now beyond the TD scout now are you wanting a war ? "

Buddy. You have No Idea. If guildwar worked. sigh. the ilKhan would be SO happy to deal with your rotten beastlord core. but again "you guys" implies we are all members of DoM.

"is that it because i'm not going to give you one i play this game for fun like i said i have a lot of friends in other guilds i don't make a habit out of burning bridges or trying to slam other guilds this was not only a LIE but total BS on your guilds part to even bring something like that up and as far as screen shots? i to can edit pictures so now what ?"

Our guilds part? hmm as someone stated I dont think that particular poster is a member of DoM. Perhaps you believe everyone here is in DoM - but wait you just learned of this boards existance recently did you not.

"i think you really need to chill out on this crap your tossing around about Zone being a new guild full of losers hell most of us in zone are from other guilds that went down from smart asses just like yourself Like my mom said once when i was a little kid if you have to LIE to get something is it really worth having ?"

Couldnt take out the epic spawn with twice the number DoM had.... were you waiting for your mommy? (yes low blow I know but come on - he opened a door the size of a barn for me. Yes sir I do believe I -can- get my tactical nuke in there!)

"I posted a pla(I)n and simple letter telling my side of the story and you have nothing to say about it so you find other things to talk about now like bashing other guilds if thats true why didn't you ever post it here way wait so long or in till we pissed you off to post something like that?"

You posted a bunch of clearly defensive crap that had little or nothing to do with the facts at hand - most of which have already been clearly elucidated by the finer few amongst us - thus leading to the subsequent posts regarding your digging your self deeper into a hole. wether the post regarding your history is true or not is fundamentally irrelevant here, and is in fact argumentum ad hominem.

"just another way of showing you are full of it and if you keep bringing up lies i think the readers of this forum are going to see right through your lies."

yes, yes the readers probably will form their own conclusions, and have already done so in fact, going by the responses thus far. You really need to work on your damage control if your going to type publicly after fostering such poor character into your guilds makeup.

"so bring on your edited Screen shots ask a GM online how long your guild was in the zone before all 6 of them died thats has to be logged somewhere i'm sure they can get it for you and by looking at your last screen shots i can see that you do a shitty job of editing so you better work on them for awhile before posting them "

you have become better at self delusion (200).

"before all 6 of them died " - im detecting a bit of tigermans derisiveness here...

FYi - they call screenshots edited because the guides/GM/Sony says they can be doctored, and thus are not admissible "evidence" - so, of course, anyone with no position and nothing to stand on in regards to facts will say they are doctored when presented with plainly undoctored captures. I believe this particular argumentative fallacy is called argumentum ad verecundium, the appeal to the authority as proof - sony says it's so, so it must be so - Mmmmmm, perhaps not. *dare i say it* very little SoE has to say resembles fact.

sidenote -

We were talking about this issue the other day in a private chat channel. since the /join channels dont queue when you zone, we had quite a time determining what was a statement about Zone, and what was an actual zone warning. This led me to imagine what it must be like in Zone when using a channel for a raid for instance - but then I realized they probably dont know how. The whos on first whats on second zone zone? zone! went something like :

X says, "who did it?"
Y says, "zone"
X says, "ok"
Z says, "no zone"
Y says, "ok whats up?"
Z says, "no zone did it"
Y says, "I didnt zone, what will it do?"
X says, "what?"

<long pause>

Y says, "ZONEING"
--

To the random calaquendi shutter upper : meds stopped working a long time ago. the only thing that works for me now is truth and justice. if I dont get enough truth and justice I de-volve into a pre-sentient neanderthal with nothing but blood lust and rage to preoccupy my thoughts, which I then vent in the nearest plausible direction.

No, I didnt kill the scout. No, I wasn't going to kill the scout. Solomons wisdom is to take a horendously bad decision and follow it to its logical conclusion. The logical conclusion stemming from this newb GMs lack of testicular vehemence is exactly what I threatened to do - and the only viable alternative in a world where idiots can destroy months of work with nary a finger lifted against their reprehensible acts.

I personally waited in PoK for 45 mins while one of the DoM sat in OOT with the zone peeps waiting for them to shit or get off the pot before moving to OOT where I waited yet another 30 minutes for them to turn out so they could turn in.

A handful of 65 bst and cronies cant whack a few gimp lizards later, and -walla!- fun and merriment for all.

Did you have your mom write that for you ? <--- smart ass Right ? OK now you see what i'm talking about,
You guys cant post anything with out being a smart ass about it when i seen your long book you left i was thinking to myself Wow someone finally came up with something good

But after the first few lines of your text i just stopped reading it it looked good at first but then i got to the part where you had to be a smart ass and mess it all up for me :( oh well one day you'll leave something on here worth reading.

1st Tigaman Fucked up by Killing the scout

2nd we did offer rezzes but got told to fuck off

3rd we got told to leave it alone so we did in till the bashing started

4th now you all set around and post smart ass replies to a letter i didn't even want to wast my time sending

5th you still keep lieing about how long they were in TD Look i said we Messed up by killing it and we might have taken to long to do the turn in But my point has always been how long is to long? 20 mins 35 ? or just 1min you tell me

to make a long story short we took the Responsibility for the scout dieing

told them we were sorry witch none of this worked instead they want to come here and keep posting shit

well i'm done with this website and wont be back it seems like all i get replies to are comments on how i post or what guild im bashing or my typing none of witch has anything to do with the day we were all in TD if we could have Kept it on the sub. of what happened that would have been fine but now this is just about bashing Darkkatt it no longer has anything to do with TD or DOM so at this point i'm out of here it's all been Fun :) and i wont be back Thanks for taking the time to read this sorry about your Headaches

Nice to meet you Darkkatt.

When i saw your name I knew that i have seen that name before and I found several Line in my logs that look like those 2.

[Mon Oct 20 19:03:51 2003] Darkkatt begins to cast a spell.
[Mon Oct 20 19:03:54 2003] Darkkatt hit Draz Nurakks Image for 490 points of non-melee damage.

Wouldn't have tough you were guild leader.

As for what you said so far, I know that maybe for your the way your write your thoughts suit you but... It would be much more pleasant to discuss if you wrote clearly. And if you don't know how, let me explain you. I don't know for you, but my natural language isn't English, so if I can manage to be somewhat readable, im sure someone who can lead a guild can too. My trick is simple, before posting I click the button just beside it. Its Called "Spell Check".

Another point, it will help your credibility if you remove all those bad words in your text before posting them.

Last point, since you are new into the boards (I presume) by experience i can tell you that the way you write your post is exactly what you should do to start whats call a "flame war". this always end same way about talking of the mother of each and blablabla and thread dies cause well.. "who cares ?"

So finally, I really suggest you to consider those suggestion, not only for you but also for all your guild member, because so far your on a false start.

Edited screenshots?

Why yes, you can witness my 1337 mspaint skillz in those screenshots, not only in the way i blocked out guildchat and public channels, but in my fansy pants highlighting of your guildmate telling me you had been there for an hour and a half.


Guild war? I don't want a guildwar. To be honest there are a few of your guildmates I have had -good- experiences with, such as heavenscent(incidently, if you are claiming you were waiting on rezzes for an hour and a half how is it you managed to get a 60+ cleric to TD within a few minutes of this happening?). As much as I would like to turn you and a few of your guildmates into spots on the ground for hours, I wouldn't want to inconvenience those zone members or members of my own guild that do not like pvp.

Only one of the 5 that died declined a rez btw. When I asked if he had been rez he told me he wasn't going to accept a rez from a zone cleric. I don't blame him.

As to the rest of your stuff darkatt, you are -still- trying to lie about things? Even -after- there are screenshots posted saying exactly the opposite?

Oh, final thought...please look through the CSR log darkatt..because that was the GM conversing with our respective guild's representatives. They did not issue any sort of gag order. I guess you're using that mistruth to cover for running away and not facing your guild's actions...poor form...but then I'm not expecting better from you.

from an unbiased p.o.v, id prolly say i would side with DoM on this.

Zone seems to be have a flew blunt tools in their shed.

I recall stories about a guildwar between 2 guilds and remembered hearing it was a lot of fun.

I wish I would have been able to participate. :(

Darkkat, I applaud your use of paragraphs in your most recent post. Now, if you could please come up with a logical reasoned response to the legitimate DoM issue with you and a select few of your guild. The people of this board are generally highly intelligent folks who can tell the difference between lies and truth. Your guild members should be ashamed of the actions of their fellow Tigamon.

Apparently at least one of them was to be so ashamed as to deguild on the spot. What I am wondering now is have you as a guild leader addressed the issue at hand? That by the way is your total lack of regard for anyone other than yourself. It is evident that you were unable to finish the epic event of the dastardly Tigamon. Why did you feel it was necessary to ruin the attempt of someone else.

I'm sure that if we were to ask some of the folks there at this little fiasco that they would agree with me. Purposely killing the epic mob and training the DoM members goes a little beyond the accepted behavior. I am sure that everyone on this board would have called you a spineless little man for running away.

So tell me, why did you train DoM and what ever possessed you to kill the epic mob? Please post your reply in a reasonable (read readable) manner.

I'm going to summarize the last few pages of this thread for those that didn't bother reading:

A_DoM_Attorney: It is unquestionable and undeniable that on said evening your guild perpetrated most heinous and egregious violations of customer service policy, and forthwith, demonstrated unmitigated gall in broadcasting said violations over both public and private channels.

A_Dark_Cat: no wy it wuz ur gild that st0l3d owr BL epix!!11

I'm going to rule this one "separate, but equally unreadable".

Hi guys, now it's my turn to say just a few things and i hope that it doesn't get me bashed and hated by all but here it goes ..

Yes you are right only one of your guildies refused my rez, I offered it to him like 4 times , and it was not Darkkatt that did the training it was another guildmate who has not been on since that day .

It was not Darkkatt who killed the scout it was tigaman and he has not been on since that day. And yes we did apologize several times for what we did and offered to help do the bst epic over.

WHAT we did was wrong and it has been said a few times already by Darkkatt, we do not want a war we messed up we know this and now all we see on here is how bad we are and no one is listening to the fact that we know we messed up and we have said that over and over .

And i need to say this also yes tigaman was out there for over an hour because he was watching the scout , Zone had been there for about 30 min before DoM told us do the turn in I myself told them we had 2 people that had been killed and was waiting for them to arrive, we had set this up as a guild so we felt we wanted to do this as a guild and not leave them out because they had died , wouldn't you wait if it had been one of yours that was down ?

At that point they waited like 5 no more than 10 min and did there turn in knowing we had been there. I personally want to see this done and over with because like i said we know both sides did wrong that day and we took our responsibility on our actions .

Like i said that is just my two words on the subject , hate me if you will and talk about me if you want but thats what i feel i needed to say


And yes we are a noob guild as you put it , but we don't claim to be a uber one , hell i know myself that i am not one of the greatest clerics out there so don't think we are telling people we are .

Yes we have alot of lower people in the guild , and we are there trying to helping them lvl up to where the rest of the guild is so please don't tell people we are talking about Zone as a uber guild because we know better that is not one of our goals and never has been . My personal goal is to try and help those who need help .

PS . one last thing the GM did tell us that the matter was resolved in her book and did not want to hear anymore on the subject and if she did then i would be banned so basically told me to shut my mouth and drop, I don't know if that was the correct way to handle it but that was what i was told .

Thanks for listening have a great day
Heavenscent

attempt to be funny number 11:

Hmmm... Heavenscent smells vaguely of elderberries...

Well Heavenscent atleast you try to make some sense. All we got from your guild leader was a Yes what so and so did was wrong and then turn around and start saying Crist0 was lieing. Yes most if not ALL of the people on this board are smart asses that should be a given, but to try to defend your guild and start calling people liars when there is posted proof is a tad bit much. Yes I understand SS can be altered but I have examined those SS and they are not altered other than to black out the guild chat

Thanks Heavenscent for a lucid, informative post regarding the situation.

If this was a perfect virtual world then the GM would have given the DoM beastie the epic, respawned the Scout for your Beastie to turn in to at your leisure, given Tigaman the boot for his actions, and served all remaining toons in zone milk and cookies. But, it is not, and so folks will be talking about this clusterphuque for some time, more than likely, with all the differing opinions being argued as to who was wrong and what the GM should have done, and what shade of blue the sky in TD really is.....

I believe DoM should have let you take the spawn, but I do not condemn them for choosing not to; they were within the technical rules of the game to go ahead and do the turn in and start the script.

For your part, you may want to take the leader of your guild under your wing and work on his communiction skills so that he can better articulate your guild's position in the future.

And your guild officers may want to look at whether Tigaman's contribution(s) to the guild are really worth his wearing your tag.

Heavenscent, thank you for posting and illuminating a few things that, until now, were the subject of much speculation.

Bylimet made several good suggestions and I second them.
If I had been the Zone guild leader of (and I have been a Guild Leader) and present at this fiasco, I would have removed Tigaman's guild tag as fast as I could type the command (or click on the button as the case may be). The members who trained DoM would probably have been put on probabion at a minimum and might have suffered the removal of their tags as well depending on whether they apologized and how they behaved in the aftermath.

I am already of the opinion that the GM that day committed gross malfeasance (you all like the big word?). I am shocked (truly I am, I'm really not just blowing wind here) to hear, in addition to the other shortcomings evidenced by the GM's (in)actions, that she had the nerve to tell you she would ban you if the incident was further discussed.

First, she could not have justified a ban in the "abuse" reports she would have been required to file. Second, she has no right to tell you that you can't discuss the matter at all. She can say "don't bother me with this any more", but the threat is bullshit and an absolute abuse of power. Sheesh, she can /ignore as well as any of us, better in fact since she can turn all tells off if she wants. Or maybe she is a newbie GM and doesn't know she can turn tells off? She clearly doesn't know the bounds of her job description.

Regardless, your post has helped us all see that we are in for a long, long period of instability and unrest unless this GM learns fast (why am I fearful that thought is a pipe dream?) or is replaced.

I vote for a quick study with Brioma (or maybe Grog) and then, if she hasn't gotten her head out of her butt in a week or two, replace her.

Shit, I forgot we're dealing with SoE "Customer Service" here. Oh well. Bunker in folks. It's gonna be a rough ride for a while.

As of 10:30 CST, our worthy Beastlord's epic turn in piece was reimbursed to him.

Brioma is now the official Patron Saint of Dragons of Mist.

EDIT: Sig Nerf v2.4 ~ Feel the Fist

Hmmmm, I retract my last comments about SoE CS while I await further actions. WooT!!! for Brioma. Maybe . . .

Hiya everyone!

This ruling of Jaanspaz HAD to be overturned. To let is stand would have meant major corrosion of the server.

I believe that it was a case of a newbie GM making a mistake. Nothing that couldn't be fixed though. Kudos on CS for the relatively rapid response.

On the subject of the bad ruling... everyone makes mistakes. It is possible that the newb will learn and become a decent GM. What disturbs me more is the position of this newb that is like RL police going to a domestic disturbance. Straight from COPS. "If I have to come out here again, everyone is going to jail". This is a total cop-out (no pun intended). Make the decision and punish the guilty party. PERIOD.

Have a nice day!

-Xeck-

I have skimmed this thread, and as such I will make no comment on who was right and who was wrong -- I'm sure to f00k something up. However, I've got an idea.

Keep in mind, I'm not a GM. I'm just a 4-year veteran player of Everquest. However, it is much easier to start with something, even if it is totally off the mark, then to try arguing without a point of reference. So, here's an extremely rough draft -- make adjustments as you will:

Proposal - using the example of King Tormax
+ A single player in Kael Drakkel may not lay claim to King Tormax.

+ Once a raid force of one complete group (6 players), they may lay claim to one single spawn. This group may not lay claim to more than one spawn. This group, and their associated raid is said to have "First Rights to Tormax".

+ So long as the Tormax remains uncontested and unchallenged, the First Rights Group may engage at any time.

+ Tormax can become contested if, and only if, a different complete group (6 players), enters Kael Drakkel, and wants King Tormax. This group may choose to fight Derakor the Vindicator instead, which they would have First Rights to. However, if they want King Tormax, the spawn is now contested.

+ Now, at this point, the First Rights group still has rights to Tormax -- they were there first. The second group has Second Rights. Another group would have Third, etc. It is the responsibility of each force contesting a spawn to remember the next force "in line" for that same spawn.

+ In order to Challenge for First Rights, the Second Rights group would need 2 Complete Groups (12 people) in Kael Drakkel.

+ Once another raid force waiting has 2 full groups in Kael Drakkel, First Rights to King Tormax have now been challenged. At this point, The First Rights Group (Raid) has 60 minutes to produce a sizeable force, prepare, and engange Tormax. If they fail to do so, they lose First Rights to Tormax. Leaders of both forces must agree on the timestamp the spawn becomes contested. This may be any time after the second force has 12 people in Kael Drakkel.

+ The First Rights leader must respond to any message(s) from the Second Rights group involving the Challenge of a spawn within ten (10) minutes, or designate a proxy to do this for her if she goes AFK. You cannot keep First Rights to a spawn indefinitely by simply ignoring tells from another force. Should the leader fail to do so, the Challenge Timer starts at the time the first message is sent. Otherwise, the two leaders should negotiate a time, but this cannot be before the message is sent to the First Rights Leader.

+ Staged spawns, like Derakor spawning Statue spawning Avatar (I forget the order...), follow a chain of First Rights. The force to bring them down automatically gets First Rights to the spawned mob. In such a case, if another force wishes to Challenge the spawn, they would have to have 2 complete groups, 12 players, in Kael Drakkel. Once challenged, the First Rights force would have 60 minutes to engage.

+ 2 groups on the same raid may not lay First Rights to two seperate mobs. Should one group join another, the 12 players together must choose a single spawn to lay claim to First Rights.


-----------------------

Now, I know this isn't perfect, but like I said, it is easier to make changes to something than it is to create things out of thin air, or try to argue back and forth and not really be sure what one is arguing for or against. I think this is a good start, and will be sandblasted, sanded, and smoothed over time.

Anyways -- give it some thought.

Steamrolling is part of the game. People will NOT respect your 'camp' as a "do unto others" policy simply does not consistently apply in practice.

The only thing really up for debate here is the ethics of DoM's leapfrogging Zone. We can argue ethics all day but all aside, what they did was consistent with the SoE rules. People are going to leapfrog you if you require any kind of time to buff/gather, and if you don't like it and get GM's involved over it, all you're doing is screwing everybody.

Lesson learned? The best thing you can do is walk away from a contested situation and wish them luck before it becomes hostile, or engage before the spawn becomes contested.

Speaking of guilds... Hey, Palimax, how's that guild of yours? I hear it's been going fairly well... what, with all of the people leaving it for guilds like RIP and SoT. Pretty amazing stuff you got going there, Palimax. Shame you don't totally lead it anymore. Now you have too much time on your hands, and can't neglect your real life responsibilities any longer. That's okay, I'm sure you'll find a way!

Steamrolling is part of the game. Steamrolling also played a small roll in the movie "Strange Brew".

Speaking of guilds... Hey, Palimax, how's that guild of yours? I hear it's been going fairly well... what, with all of the people leaving it for guilds like RIP and SoT. Pretty amazing stuff you got going there, Palimax. Shame you don't totally lead it anymore. Now you have too much time on your hands, and can't neglect your real life responsibilities any longer. That's okay, I'm sure you'll find a way!That's an interesting jab out of left-field.

VA is doing just fine, thanks. And yes, while we lost a couple groups of people to some fast-track guilds (especially to SoT), we don't hold any grudges. It's the nature of guilds like ours to have that sort of turnover. [A lot of people left VA, joined an "uberguild" and then promptly quit playing, too.] We're pretty open with the people we recruit (mostly they come to us), that we're the sort of guild that isn't going to raid every night, and that we're not going to be killing the next ubergod when he comes out. We've even had a few people who used to be in fast-track guilds turn back to VA because it fits their pace.

The game evolved and so did our guild.

Prior to contrary belief, I never "totally lead" Vision or VA. I was the 4th or 5th Guildleader for Vision (Salvor, Cantra, Tolnik, Branwene, /shrug, even I forget), and even when I took the reigns, I shared the job with the other officers. The only special power I had was the PHYSICAL ability to type "/guildinvite o" and have it do anything.

My position in VA is similar. I have the /guildstatus of "Leader" and I'm one of nearly two dozen officers and class leaders that help drive the guild's direction.

Finally, yes, my daughter was born almost three years ago. In December, she'll be 3 and I'll be 34. I try to do what any decent father would do when he gets home from work; I spend a little time with my daughter - watch a cartoon with her, read a story to her, talk to her about her day, or just be with her. As you can imagine, she's more important than EverQuest, and a lot of nights, I don't logon until she goes to sleep. And when I do play Everquest while she's up, sometimes she'll sit on my lap and we'll tickle the bad monsters until they go night-night. She likes my horse and is fairly fond of seeing shaman and beastlord pets. I have too many little-girl-prints on the monitor from her petting warders :)

I'm also a lot busier at work. When I started playing Everquest, I was working on contract for St. Joseph's Hospital fixing broken computers. Fast forward 5 years and I'm working for Perot Systems doing automation and mass deployments.

In the meantime, I've still managed to be our #13 raider over the last year.

Sacred Declension
Total Posts :: 1Oh...

Damn it, that ruined a perfectly good flame. Thanks a lot, Pali. =( I was hoping something interesting would happen.

This was brought to Brioma's attention, and she told me that she reimbursed the item on the character, and had a chat with that GM. I don't suppose anyone can confirm that, can they?

I can confirm and yes the item was returned

I can confirm that it was indeed brioma that did the fixing, and that she personally escalated it to her lead, apologized for the gm's handling of the matter, thanked our members for being easy to work with, and told us if we ever had problems again to let her know...but I can't verify that she had a chat with said gm.

I can also add that at the time the beastlord's coin was returned tigaman got a 3 day suspension, and I believe that was brioma's doing as well(no proof, but since it all happened when she got involved, /shrug).

I <3 brioma. a GM that will talk to me when I send them a tell, and not give me the "send in a petition" bullshit owns so hard. I don't care if its special treatment or not, it was so fucking awesome, I wish she was back ;p

Try staying up 5 Fucking days straight in a line to get a robe in lower guk. You PPL dont know what the hell a camp is!

Good job bumping an old thread with an insightful comment like that.. lame

oh n0s! I have to wait! Go play a console game or go e-bay if you want instant gratification.

err...just a question

what does camping a robe have anything to do with this thread? :p

I have a popsickle

Try staying up 5 Fucking days straight in a line to get a robe in lower guk. You PPL dont know what the hell a camp is!Old Ragefire, nuff said.

whats this thread about agian? pIE?

Cork tree bark and toenails.

I'm gonna spam him :-o
:rolleyes :rolleyes