1. United States 6.41 per 1000 people
2. Russia 6.37 per 1000 people
3. Belarus 5.77 per 1000 people
...
7. Ukraine 4.55 per 1000 people
8. Botswana 4.24 per 1000 people
9. South Africa 3.79 per 1000 people
...
30. Korea, South 1.31 per 1000 people
...
37. Spain 1.13 per 1000 people 1.1305458728301
38. Australia 1.11 per 1000 people 1.1108723678556
39. Canada 1.1 per 1000 people 1.0986355215768
40. United Kingdom 1.09 per 1000 people 1.0906018936733
41. Saudi Arabia 1.01 per 1000 people 1.0087907694794
42. Germany 0.96 per 1000 people 0.95501838999277
43. Italy 0.94 per 1000 people 0.9362979852934
44. France 0.86 per 1000 people 0.86070675634976
45. Switzerland 0.79 per 1000 people 0.78882605974536
46. Ireland 0.77 per 1000 people 0.76690118357214
47. Oman 0.74 per 1000 people 0.7444369918849
48. Netherlands 0.73 per 1000 people 0.73183634349444
...
56. Japan 0.48 per 1000 people

What the hell is going on?

Dunno. Those of us who don't break the law seem to have avoided the problem.

1. United States 6.41 per 1000 people
2. Russia 6.37 per 1000 people

United States: fucked up justice system, mandatory sentencing, minimun sentences, large segments of the population not understanding the laws of the country, etc.

Russia: Complete breakdown in the central government of the USSR has led to.. interesting conditions in that area. I'm willing to bet a lot of people put away in Russia don't need to be in jail.

56. Japan 0.48 per 1000 people

Should be higher, for all that fucked up bukkake, bondage and anime-torture crap they are beating off to, but I digress.

Master Damoiel Mindbend
Retired Enchanter of the 60th Season

Have you avoided the problem? I mean, the taxes, the number of people not working, the social damage (children with no parent). And there must be something wrong going on for a wealthy industrial nation to have such a high rate of crime and punishment.

Where the data came from:
www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_pri_cap (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_pri_cap)

It is a bit out of date, last I checked US prison population was higher than 2 million:
www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_pri (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_pri)

Less reliable data:
# Percent of the increase in prison population accounted for by nonviolent offenders, 1980-1993: 84
# Percent of federal prisoner population incarcerated for nonviolent crimes: 89
# Percent of new admissions to federal prisons that are for nonviolent crimes: 94


Oh, and parole population is about 50% greater than prison population.

I mean, should this be normal?

Mandatory prison sentences for drug users and the criminalization of other consentual activities (where all parties involved are able to and give consent) wastes the space of MY jails which could be used for violent criminals and sexual predators and corporate fraud artists.

haha the day you convince me that the repressive controlling lifestyle of japan is worth climbing the ladder of low per capita prison populations will be the day they sell sweaters in hell

this is the most free country in the world. it gives people the freedoms to make incredibly stupid decisions and to pay for them. the english wont take a shit without permission from their queen.

damn i fell for the ol' euro vs us bait again :(

Good, more people off the streets means less people in line to see X-men 3 when it comes out.

damn i fell for the ol' euro vs us bait again

I've been to Europe once. It was nice, but all the cars drove backwards, and everything was way too expensive (2 british pounds for a pop). Does that make me a Euro?

=p~

Next ad homeium attack please.

didnt mean to imply you baited me Lae. The statistics did it to me :(

im sure halo will be here shortly to extoll the virtues of english society and the effect it has on people and their crime rate

i like to look at it this way. the UK still imprisons twice as many people as the japanese which makes them a cruel heartless super power too. err wait scratch that last part.

Kill 'em all.
Aparantly it's like an awsome solution or something.

if that delusion keeps people like you thousands of miles away from people like me then im all for feeding your delusions ;)

So, there are 2 million prisoners in the USA.
There are 500,000 employees of the prison system.

If you added that 2.5 million people who exist simply because of the huge american prison population to the unemployment rate (5.8% in the USA last I checked (http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/41/13/2752342.pdf), using internationally standardized numbers). . .

7.5% unemployment.

More contravertially, take another large number of non-productive, would-otherwise-be-working population block, the American Military. 2 million people.

8.9% unemployment.

Which is interesting. If you compare other first world nation's "unproductive workfore percentage"s to the USA, you get rates that vary much less than unemployment rates do.

So, possibly the massive prison population and large military provide a way for the government to inject money into the otherwise unemployable, and act as a large social safety net of some kind, if a strange one. Other nations use welfare and unemployment benefits to do the same thing -- which shows up as higher unemployment percentages.

Some of this musings was brought about by the wierd conundrum: We have a city. Now, take half the unemployed, imprison them -- for whatever reason, it doesn't matter to this model. Take the other half, turn them into prison guards. You just increased the GDP of the city and dropped its unemployment rate, while doing absolutely nothing useful.

If you want to really stir things up, what percentage of that 2 million in jail are minorities?

Compare that to percentage of general population.

Compare rates in southern states.


Also


You wonder why they don't win the war on drugs?

There would be too many unemployed people.

:evil

And then you count for population densities and a much more active police force, and suddenly the relevancy of this thread drops to just about 0.

that's yer cue halo

/snap

And then you count for population densities and a much more active police force, and suddenly the relevancy of this thread drops to just about 0.

What in the world are you trying to say? I can't make any sense of your post. Could you please clarify, maybe use more words?

Have you avoided the problem? I mean, the taxes, the number of people not working, the social damage (children with no parent).
Errr.... no. We have a huge illegal immigration problem- that sucks up resources, tax dollars, adds to employment problems, etc. We have programs for many of the social problems (even if they are second rate). Children with no parents are called "orphans" and every nation has them- I'd wager the US has fewer orphans than some other countries. If you mean "single parent families"- this isn't a bad thing per se- and might have more to do with the incredible divorce rate than anything else.
And then you count for population densities and a much more active police force, and suddenly the relevancy of this thread drops to just about 0.

Meaning that crime rates are higher in areas with a very dense population- compare crime in Detroit and New York City with crime rates in.... Boone, North Carolina. Also, there is an implication that our police force is larger, more active and is catching more criminals- which may or may not be true- but probably isn't.

Like anyone is going to let a fucking English Bobby arrest them. :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin


Come here so I can arrest you before I beat you down with my gay hat.

http://www.web-birds.com/9th/409/409-044.jpg

We had some idiot, probably Taino, point out before that America has an incredibly high crimerate. I in turn pointed out that aside from China where nobody has anything to steal anyways and Japan where they're all already in prison, the US has some of the highest population densities.

New Jersey has roughly the same population as Switzerland, but takes up half the space. If you're living in a city of 100,000 vs. a village of 5,000, you're ability to get away with violent crime increases exponentially. And if you can get away with it, temptation rises as well.

The police comment came from me being really fucking tired and not thinking straight. I think it had something to do with how I know a village of 500 people that has a cop. How many villages of 500 people abroad actually bother to put a cop there. 8/

New Jersey has roughly the same population as Switzerland, but takes up half the space. If you're living in a city of 100,000 vs. a village of 5,000, you're ability to get away with violent crime increases exponentially. And if you can get away with it, temptation rises as well.

Hyper dence cities in Europe, USA and Canada:
www.demographia.com/db-hyperdense.htm (http://www.demographia.com/db-hyperdense.htm)

Because you seem to think that asians don't count, I'll leave them out to avoid offending your sensabilities.

And yes, NYC is dense.

However, most of your jail population doesn't come from NYC. The rest of the country is quite comparable to the rest of the first world.

Hell, the entire UK is 8 times larger and half the density of NJ:

UK: 248 people / km2
USA: 30 people / km2
NJ: 430 people / km2
Hudson County: 5000 / km2
London: www.demographia.com/db-lo...mp1998.htm (http://www.demographia.com/db-londonuacomp1998.htm)

They don't seem that far off to me -- I would be surprised if the UK didn't have chunks as dense as NJ, given how people tend to clump.

Remember, by some metrics, Toronto is denser than any US city other than New York.

Is it your contention that the USA is more urbanized than the rest of the world, and this is causing the massive incarceration rate?

The police comment came from me being really fucking tired and not thinking straight. I think it had something to do with how I know a village of 500 people that has a cop. How many villages of 500 people abroad actually bother to put a cop there. 8/

Heh. That one really threw me for a loop. =p

I don't know the problem. But, these statistics seem to me like having someone with a high fever -- you don't know what is causing it, but it might be a good idea to find out. And fix it.

Ok how many is that in the easy to understand "square mile"?

1. United States 6.41 per 1000 people
2. Russia 6.37 per 1000 people
3. Belarus 5.77 per 1000 people
...
7. Ukraine 4.55 per 1000 people
8. Botswana 4.24 per 1000 people
9. South Africa 3.79 per 1000 people
...
30. Korea, South 1.31 per 1000 people
...
37. Spain 1.13 per 1000 people 1.1305458728301
38. Australia 1.11 per 1000 people 1.1108723678556
39. Canada 1.1 per 1000 people 1.0986355215768
40. United Kingdom 1.09 per 1000 people 1.0906018936733
41. Saudi Arabia 1.01 per 1000 people 1.0087907694794
42. Germany 0.96 per 1000 people 0.95501838999277
43. Italy 0.94 per 1000 people 0.9362979852934
44. France 0.86 per 1000 people 0.86070675634976
45. Switzerland 0.79 per 1000 people 0.78882605974536
46. Ireland 0.77 per 1000 people 0.76690118357214
47. Oman 0.74 per 1000 people 0.7444369918849
48. Netherlands 0.73 per 1000 people 0.73183634349444


Ethnic diversity -> some/many people wind up underprivileged -> crime rates go up. Thus the US and Russia (and to a lesser extent, Ukraine and Belarus) are way up there in terms of crime. Crime results in incarceration, as only the symptoms of the problem are addressed. Makes sense?

Furthermore, the bigger a nation is (in terms of both population and area), the greater the inefficiency of its spiderweb of bureaucracy. While the manpower grows directly, paperwork does so exponentially. There is so much paperwork going around that it is just easier to stuff people into a prison than to address every case in detail. This leads to more prisons, more appeals, more bureaucratic bullshit, and an endless cycle thereof.

Other, lesser factors exist. Overall police competence is one - a glaring weakness here in the States. The government's policy on drugs is another. Consistent harshness of punishment is also among them, though it does not play much of a factor until it reaches a threshold that is probably unattainable outside a totalitarian state. Population density affects crime rate as well, though it is a moot point for our purposes - most of the population in the modernized West resides in cities regardless of the nation.

"But Professor Paladud," some of you might say, "my nation's population is diverse, yet our crime and incarceration rates are among the lowest out there!" And you may well be right. But fifty years down the road, barring the possibility of the world being a massive radioactive wasteland, chances are pretty high that your grandkids will be posting a gripe about the incarceration rates in your country.

But professor Paladud, my nation is very small and ethnically diverse and we have one of the highest violent crime / drug abusers rate per capita in the world!

//Kiv

Er, I stated above that diversity is one of the main causes of crime. It usually leads to intranational conflict and the oppression of one or more minorities (or, in the instances of South Africa, Botswana, and probably some others that I don't know off the top of my head, majorities). An increased crime rate is in part a consequence of the oppression. Also, controlling crime within the primary culture is relatively easy.

Regarding drugs: if they're available, they will be used. Their effect on crime rate pretty much depends on the government's policy on drugs. If it's ridiculously restrictive like here in the States, the overwhelming majority of drug-related crimes will be possession of the substance, thus inflating the statistics in that field. In a liberal country like the Netherlands, I'd imagine drug-related crimes consist mostly of driving while stoned and consequently have much less impact on the statistics.

I do not have the slightest idea as to the drug policy in Sweden. If you have a lenient policy and still have an obscenely high rate of drug-related crimes per capita, Professor Paladud must refer you to Professor Google for an explanation :p

Naw. We're not lenient. We're sorta in-between.

When I said violent crime / drug addicts I didn't mean them in conjunction. We're up top on the lists on both scales separately!

The reason we have so many heroin addicts is because we as a society refuse to help someone who "got themselves addicted" :)

//Kiv

The Japanese are far more condensed than most areas of America. Land prices are insane over there.

But professor Paladud, my nation is very small and ethnically diverse and we have one of the highest violent crime / drug abusers rate per capita in the world!

Blame the climate. I'll be the winter does horrible things to people. Also, doesn't Sweden have one of the highest per-capita rate of musicians?

Japan may have to lowest incarceration rate, but if memory serves me they also have the highest suicide rate. Could be wrong though, heard somthing to that effect long ago.

would I be mistaken if I said the US was the most ethinically, religiously and culturally diverse nation in the world?

thinking nowhere has the amount nationwide and in large cities maybe only London can compare in diversity.

would I be mistaken if I said the US was the most ethinically, religiously and culturally diverse nation in the world?

Yes you would ....

and what nation would be more diverse?

Since you make an assumption without any facts I see no reason why I can't say it isn't so without facts either ...

Jesus christ Ytrok can you get more petty than that?

//Kiv

yes I can Kiv ...

It's very easy to make statements like that without backing it up with any facts....

But hey what do you care ....

On Edit:
In My country we have about 16 million people living.
20% of those are foreigners.
Now how much different religions they all have I would not be able to know because some also believe that a "way of life" is considdered a religion.

Maybe L2 here can give me the numbers of actual foreigners in the US and their religion, without that the statement he made does not hold water.

Now feel free to flame me but use the right motivation to do so .. or proove me wrong and I will gladly admit that what he stated is/was a true fact ...

You're not getting it.
I didn't accuse you of lying.
Nor did I accuse him of lying.
Nor do I CARE which one of you is right.

I said it was petty of you to cop out by going "hey he didn't submit any facts so why should I?!". It's right up there with "it's unfair that he gets a lollipop and I don't".

Be the bigger man. Submit the facts even if others don't, as you're clearly capable of judging by the post above.

This isn't some sports event where you can make sport of getting away with as many fouls as possible.

//Kiv

Crazy,
But thats how it goes.
Millions of people,
Living as foes.
Maybe,
It's not too late.
To learn how to love,
And forget how to hate.

-Ozzy Osbourne

Ytrok, spend less time hating and trying to act like you're better than people. No one likes a sore thumb.

75% white
12% black
1% aboriginal
4% asian
6% other
2% 2+ races
----
and 13% hispanic (of any race), half of which are also "white"
---

canada:
www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/demo28a.htm (http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/demo28a.htm)

Religion:
Canada:
43% Roman Catholic
29% Prodestant
16% no religion
3% "Christian"

Leaving ~9% other

USA:
52% Prodestant
24.5% Catholic
14% no religion
1.3% Jewish
Leaving ~9% other

What does "20% foriegner" mean?

Hrmnph. I had this huge post written out, and wanted to copy it for posterity and accidentally hit ctrl+v instead.

Anyways. The synopsis.

<a href="http://www.census.gov/main/www/stat_int.html" target="_new">Links to every Census bureau in the world</a>

<a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html" target="_new">The CIA's world statistics and facts.</a>

Note facts Ytrok, not opinions.

In 2000, the US wracked up impressive an...and note the term Ytrok...ETHNICALLY diverse population. Nobody gives a shit about foreigners, because even then we still have your ass beat. The US lets in more then 300,000 people a year, (exact number I couldn't find). Assuming an average life expectancy of 30 years after immigrating, that's over 30% of our population is simply -legal- immigrants. You tack on the number of illegal people entering the US every year and you're looking at nearly 35~40%, if not more.

We're looking at racial diversity Ytrok. A French guy may piss everyone off he passes, but there's no way another white guy is gonna take a swing at him just for being white.

In 2000, the US has about 70% white people, 12% black, 4% Asian, and 6% 'other' including Pacific Islander. There are roughly 35 million Hispanics in America (12% roughly) that are listed as being either white or black depending on what they put down.

This is what's known as racial diversity. The US is one of the few, if not the only as far as I can find so far, countries in the world that actually keeps this statistic.

...

Almost every country in the world will have people who follow the major religions, as well as some of the lesser.

But only in America will you find thousands, if not millions of people who follow other religions such as the <a href="http://www.subgenius.com/index.html" target="_new">Church of the Subgenius</a>. Welcome to a country where 3 friends can get together, pick something to worship, and within a week have their leader ordained and able to legally marry people.

I can't find the link, but I remember seeing on a 'strange but true' type show about 3 people in California I think it was who worship tree's and having sex. Coincidentally, it was a guy and two girls. (But before you say lucky guy, the girls weren't very attractive to say the least).

You have hundreds of religions like this. People have religions centered around just about anything and everything. This isn't like, "Oh, I love my car" type religions like I'm sure you'll find anywhere. That's idolizing, not religion. This is people who have weekly ceremonies devoted to their car.

.....

Culturaly, since the US is probably the only country that has at least one person from every country in the world living here...I think we win in that department. You have a 20% 'foreinger' rating in Sweden? Ours is closer to 40. Thanks though. The US lets in every year over 300,000 people. Assuming they each live for an average of 30 years after they come over, that's roughly 90 million people living in the US that weren't born here.

Not to mention that since the US is still a relatively new country, It hasn't been until the last 60 years or so that we've developed a culture all of our own. Instead, the US's culture changed depending on what street you're on.

How many China-towns are there in Sweden?

Foreginer means people not born in your country. Over here, we call them "Americans."

Once they get their green card that is.

I think you confused me with Ytrok, Zehn. He's from the netherlands, I'm from Sweden. I was discussing drug addicts (heroinists to be precise) and crimerate (violent crimes)per capita, something my nation seems to excel at when compared to international numbers.

To answer your questions though; Sweden has roughly nine millions in total under our banner. That's what... half of New York?

Roughly one million, out of nine (11%) are immigrants.

There are no chinatowns that I know of in Sweden. Asian immigration is at a minimum overall, most of our immigrants are refugees from iraq, iran, somalia and bosnia.

//Kiv

Meh, it's all the same.

Sweden is slightly larger geographically then California.

California has 3 times the population.

Anyways. *shrugs*

Ok Zehn ...


Can you be so kind then to list me the different Ethnic groups and the different religions practiced in your country please so I have something I can measure the diversity with please.

Thank you in advance...

Zehn right now I have no idea what you're talking about :)

You're dragging me into a discussion I never participated in.

//Kiv

I listed several of the ethnic groups of America. I stated that, as far as I could find, very few if any other countires actually keep this statistic. Religion wasn't my thing either, I just tossed it out there.

Fuck it bring back the "Old West Laws" -- IE.....Sheriff hanging folks on the spot, gun slingers etc. Let them kill eachother off.

Ytrok, with very little effort you can see the diversity of religion in the US.

Bring up yp.yahoo.com. Change your location to, for instance, the suburb this office is in, arlington Heights, IL. Or any large town. Type in "churches"

You start off with :
Christianity
Organizations
Convents and Monasteries
Temples and Synagogues

Choose Christianity and you get:
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Baptist
Lutheran
Catholic
Methodist
Christian Science
Presbyterian

THen you have the obvious ones that are left out: Buddhist, Ba'hai, Jewish, Orthodox Jewish, Anglican, Episcopalian, Orthodox Catholic, etc.

You have those religions in my country just the same, you have the ethnic groups mentioned so far in my country just the same .... still that does not make mine, or your country the most diverse where it comes to ethnicity or religion.

Your argument is sort of a straw man. You're saying that if a country has 1 black person, 1 hispanic person, and 11,999,999 white people, that the country is as diverse as a country that has 31.8 million black people (12% of 265 million), 31.8 million hispanic people, and, say, 200 million white people. It's like saying that the hick town of 10k people I grew up in is as ethnically diverse as New York city.

I don't think so. Again, as usual, you don't seem to grasp arguments of scale.

Ytrok, I posted the religious mix of the USA and the Ethnic mix of the USA. Why are you asking for it again? Just read up the thread.

Foreign born in the USA is 11%:
The Commerce Department's Census Bureau estimated today that the nation's foreign-born population last year numbered 32.5 million, accounting for 11.5 percent of the total U.S. population.
< www.census.gov/Press-Rele...03-42.html (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/2003/cb03-42.html) >

Foreign born in Canada is 18%:
< www12.statcan.ca/english/...fbhist.cfm (http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/Products/Analytic/companion/etoimm/tables/provs/fbhist.cfm) >
Including more than 1 in 4 in Ontario and British Columbia.

Do you have a citation for your 20% figure? I am getting a much lower percentage of Ethnicly foreign, let alone foreign born:

Ethnic groups:
Dutch 83%, other 17% (of which 9% are non-western origin mainly Turks, Moroccans, Antilleans, Surinamese and Indonesians) (1999 est.)
www.cia.gov/cia/publicati...os/nl.html (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/nl.html)

Holland, compared to Canada and the USA, is a highly ethnically monotonous nation.

I think the problem here is you don't understand exactly how diverse USA/Canadian populations really are. So, judging from your "norm" your society looks diverse, but from the "norm" on this side of the pond your society looks monoethnic.

Holland does much better in the amount of religious diversity, relative to North America:
Religions:
Roman Catholic 31%, Protestant 21%, Muslim 4.4%, other 3.6%, unaffiliated 40% (1998)
More unaffilitateds than .us and even .ca. (10% and 16% respectively compared to your 40%)

You have those religions in my country just the same, you have the ethnic groups mentioned so far in my country just the same .... still that does not make mine, or your country the most diverse where it comes to ethnicity or religion.

No, the numbers and facts make North America way more diverse ethnically.

Edit: Some additional details, relivant to an old thread:
Fossil Fuel power: 71% US (2700 gwh, ~9 per capita), 25% CA (144 gwh, ~5 per capita), 90% NL (80 gwh, ~5 per capita). NL imports 20% of its power from external sources, CA exports 10% and USA imports 1%.

I used 2001 number u used 1999 that's why you came up with the 17% I assume.

Thanks for the other info .. was a nice read.

I guess you are right if you take the amount of people in considderation especially since my country has about the same inhabitants of an average American city (no clue if that's correct but u get my point).

It is just that if I walk into my city and do a 380, I have seen about 15 to 20 different nationalities ...

But also I guess if you look at it country wise it will be a lot different then if you look at the big cities where 30% to 40% is not originally from the Netherlands.

Anyway ... thanks for the info I appreciate it .. I think you are right, the US in your way of putting it must have a more diverse population then a lot of others out there and is maybe the most diverse.

On religion thanks for pointing that out aswell .. althou I don;t care for religion much :)

Thx again . for the info .. you made your point and I stand corrected.

Takes a big man to admit a mistake..

I get more respect for you from the oddest places Ytrok.

Imagine if every person you met in your city comes form a different country. If half the people you know had immigrants for parents, or are immigrants themselves.

And I'm not kidding. Out of the people I kept in touch with from high school:
1> Immigrated at around 9 or so with parents (Polish, fled from a nation in africa during unstability there). Learned English as his 3rd language (Polish then French), speaks like a native.

2> One partent is an Immigrant (HK Chinese), the other was born here (Irish). Won some regional tae quon do competition (a korean martial art, IIRC) back in the day.

3> Native/Acadian on mothers side, don't know on fathers side. Both parents are functionally bilingual in French and English.

4> Parents immigrated from Austria.

5> Parents are not immigrants AFAICT, don't know ethnicity. Possibly French, but native language is English.

For my part, my fathers parents are immigrants from Belgium, and my mother can trace herself back to the united empire loyalists. Other branches of my family have been found in the UK, the Carribian, Mexico, California, New York, Manitoba, and British Columbia.

But all of that doesn't really matter. North Americans who identify themselves principally by their ethnicity are often looked on as a bit wierd by everyone else -- who you are, and what you do, tends to be viewed with more importance than some accident of blood.