I know this sounds like an old pointless desire. But I am a backer for the new National Sales Tax Bill.

I'm one of the countless folks that live in the Mid to Upper brackers of the Middle income. Yes, the Middle Income bracket tax payers are being ground into small bite sized pieces by a Tax system that is increasingly impossible to understand.

H.R. 25 is growing in the both Houses of Government. With supporters from both Parties swelling the ranks daily.

Now, I'll not pretend to be a savant and totally understand the machinations of our political taxation system. But I do encourage a discussion by those that perhaps do have a handle on understanding how this would affect us....

Fairtax.org is the website for more info...

Fandros

*cut and paste here*

our tax system is an accepted form of slavery.

sales tax does nothing but make sure everyone gets fucked equally. grats on your support.

Care to explain your position on Taxation being an accepted form of slavery?

Have you ever studied what slavery is? Goodness you seem to be one political cliche after another with absolutely no thought behind what yer posting.

A Government has to have taxes. And while I agree the actual problems lie with the folks spending the monies gained. I still don't think I should be paying 33% of my income versus the poor or rich paying half that.

Have you ever seen the physical copy of our current Tax code? It's ludicrous, I did once....it was volumes and volumes and volumes and volumes. Each year it grows ;(

I shouldn't have to pay more taxes just to cover Joe Blow down the street deciding to have 10 kids. Just because I'm a single man with a good job doesn't mean I should have to pay a larger share of my income than the man on the other side of the tracks who happened to inherit a fortune.

Truth be told I'm torn between the Sales tax idea and the Flat tax idea. Any taxation I agree on would have to have absolutely no exemptions, no loopholes and no need for filing taxes.

It's a tough road to think of changing our entire way of taxing. But I , and a growing number of folks, think it's past time we do.

Christopher...

Unless people want to post copies of their Libertarian (http://www.lp.org/) voter registration cards, they get to lay off the tax is teh evil rhetoric.

The alternatives to taxes are, essentially, strict useage fees. Car registrations that pay for roads, television licenses that pay for emergency broadcasting and PSAs, and insurance to those willing to pool funds to insure themselves against whatever they want to insure themselves against. We'll pretend that the Navy and the fire department can pay for themselves without taxes.

Ok, so we probably want to keep an Army. But those pesky firefighters can get paid for strictly by the landowners - they're the only ones with things that burn anyway. No, I mean, seriously, there's plenty of rural areas that have pay-per-response and pay-for-coverage fire departments (http://www.ruralmetro.com/)... ...and I assure you, call 911 and you'll get a bill in most places.

I suppose when I redesign my utopia, we'll all pay for stuff differently, but in the meantime, I'll keep sucking up the better part of 10 cents on the dollar at the cash register and 30 cents on the dollar in my paycheck for a mish-mash of things I love, and things I hate...

A Government has to have taxes.

you are so far beyond gone you aren't worth replying to. read palimaxs post. if i could change it i would and i do what i can to further that but there are so many sheep like you Fanny that it makes it so difficult.

KMA my friend, Fandros(not fanny) was simply trying to engage you in a discussion. Why not back up your point instead of bashing him? Are you smart enough to hold a civil adult conversation about a topic with opposing views? Or, and I think this is most likely the case, is our hate for you simply what you want? I can see you now. 13 year old kid. Glasses. Kinda fat. No friends so you pick illogical fights in internet chat? I think thats a bit more like it. Oh, and your hand out of your pants! HA COUGHT YA BITCH!

Oh, and...
www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html (http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html)

Well its the same problem in france. My mother is a doctor with a fairly high pay check each month, she is taxed at 60% of her salary. Before regular tax even hit there are 25% that are taken off for social security (paying for everyone hehe I have yet to actually use it, some people don't even have a job and gov has to pay thousand of $ to cure them). There are 2 things really:

Either you don't get a lot of money and you have kids and then you get 30000000 helps or you are fairly rick and you don't give a crap about taxes. If you are in the middle you are pretty much fucked.

Okay let me attempt to keep this on the upper up.

Maybe your right, a government doesn't have taxes but it does have to have funds.

If we were truly expansionist we could grab funds that way I guess. Invading other countries and selling off their resources to fund our countries needs. But there is a cap to that and pitfalls galore.

If we were technologically advanced enough perhaps we could take to mining Space for our needs. But again that's a dream world. We're not living in Gene Roddenberries world here ;(

And Pali, I'm not talking about total abatement of taxes. Follow up on what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about getting rid of the special interest Tax system we have in place now. I'm more interested in a Sales Tax, tho I see a problem with only taxing new items. The purists in that drive would have you believe used items wouldn't need to be taxed. I see myself as then buying only used items in hopes of stretching my dollar even further. But the system is derived from the works of a Ivy League Prof of Economics and he claims it would work.

Christopher...

I dont think it's the middle/lower classes getting crushed by taxes....


El Rushbo (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/top_50__of_wage_earners_pay_96_09__of_income_taxes .guest.html)

Look past who's sight it's on and read the actual numbers.

Lemme get this straight. You're asking me to carry on adult conversation with someone on a internet message board that attacks nearly everyone who disagrees with him with something as childish and intelligent as "you fucking git.." ?

Then if the irony isn't thick enough in your request, you follow it up with a peepee joke? jesus christ. serious? i don't know where you learned you to count, i'm sure that's a whole other issue in itself, but i've been supporting myself and living on my own for 17 years now. I'm 35 years old and have enough friends as free thinking and interesting as i could ask for to make my personal as fulfilling as i need it to be.

If baiting idiots on a message board makes me unpopular with said idiots then i guess its safe to say your hate for me ( or my opinions since thats all you know ) is what brings me back night after night. it's fun seeing fanny get so upset the only words he can find to fit his emotional state are "you fucking git". don't you find that entertaining? isn't that why you're baiting me also?

Interesting link , tho I tend to second guess anything Rush throws out.

Regardless I fall in that upper 50%. To top that off a gentleman who works in the same field as I do, yet has 5 kids gets off much lighter...

Christopher...

You have the same house you bought when you were 18?
MUAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHAH
Must be a REAL palace. Willing to bet the total equity you have in your hovel of 17 years wouldnt pay a month of Rent in a decent NYC apartment.

Anyway. Taxes are necessary. To say they arent take thousands of things every day for granted.

When the Great Depression hit, the only thing that stood in the way of complete and total collapse of society was social welfare programs. That kind of changed how things are.
Also, if you are a businessman in America, how did you get to operate on the single greatest system of infrastructure in the world? Ya, taxes.. more than "usage", aggressive expansion and refinment.
How about the system of laws and the means to enforce them? Federal Court System, FBI, DEA, ATF..
Thousands of seperate agencies who streamline the orginization and structure of interstate relations in order to create harmony out of potential chaos.

Basic bottomline is that the Constitution of the US and orginization of States was formed with the governing of a Agricultural society.. it didnt turn out that way..

Besides.. we tried the Articles of Confederation, they didnt work

um ok. yeah thats exactly what i said L2. same house, 17 years, palace. yeah thats it exactly. coming from a new yorker tho i shouldn't be surprised at the leaps you make nor the baseless confrontation you seek out. how much equity ya got in yer lil studio? doesn't matter, the facts remain you can neither read nor can you turn that reading into rational comprehension.

its hilarious to see you defend the current system with the need for money to support the current system. fucking think.

if you're a businessman in america you cannot operate your business in the same way the government has chosen to operate itself. period. charge your fucking employees to work for you and see how long you operate *in* the single greatest system of infrastructure in the world.

I'm not saying ditch Taxes, I'm instead seeking an alternative to the way they collect them...

Christopher...

charge your fucking employees to work for you and see how long you operate

You mean like Strip Clubs? Craftsman Unions? Wholesale Distributors? Resturant Franchises or a thousand other things?

Your Personal Self-Government Score is 80%.
Your Economic Self-Government Score is 30%.

OMG, left-liberal yet again... ;)

Taxes are a necessary 'evil'. Do you like having a standing military, police and fire service, the Interstate system, clean water, public education (and not just at the lower levels, if you are sending your children to a State college, realize that over 75% of the actual cost of their higher education is being paid for by, yes, the taxpayers), emergency room service, Federal disaster relief, or Social Security?

Then you like taxes, my friend, because the money for all of these things has to come from *somewhere*. While the idea appeals to me in principle, I am skeptical of proposals such as the FairTax one because of the authors' clever failure anywhere in their supporting documentation to address what they consider 'necessary' (i.e. nontaxable) services, and to be honest about the true costs of many services that we take for granted.

I also think that it (this proposal) would be lobbied out of existance should it gain any serious momentum, because it encourages saving, recycling, and rewards people who *DO NOT SPEND MONEY*. While I think, personally, that saving and recycling are very *good* things to encourage, think about it for a moment. What happens now in this country every time consumer spending drops a tenth of a percentage point or two?

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

Besides I need you all to pay taxes (well actually the folks who live in Colorado). Because with out it I dont get a paycheck...=/

Ok, for the record, I'm not suggesting the abolishment of taxes. But...Taxes are a necessary 'evil'. Do you like having a standing military, police and fire service, the Interstate system, clean water, public education (and not just at the lower levels, if you are sending your children to a State college, realize that over 75% of the actual cost of their higher education is being paid for by, yes, the taxpayers), emergency room service, Federal disaster relief, or Social Security?Police, fire, and other EMS have successfully been privatized. You don't see large scale privatized police, but the same model that works for EMS works for police. Again, go look at www.ruralmetro.com/ (http://www.ruralmetro.com/) if you need an example.

But yes, standing army, interstate commerce, the construction of everything the US Army corps of engineers built... ...taxes.

Police, fire, and other EMS have successfully been privatized.

As successful as HMOs???

Wont it be fun to have a for-profit police force?
Jesus.. I cant even begin to imagine the nightmare that would be.

That's a fiarly dorky argument. There's been successful doughnut shops? Oh yeah, as successful as HMOs? Apples and oranges, man.

Fire and EMS have been privatized and successful for 50 years. In limited scenerios, police has been too - in the form of private security. So, no, to the best of my knowledge there isn't a town somewhere with a for-profit police department; and frankly, I don't suggest that we start one up -- but I don't see why it's not just as viable for a small town.

...and what have the Romans ever given us!?

Man in back cautiously raises hand: "The aquaduct?"

LOL, sorry, but that scene cracks me up, and to a degree reminds me of the conversation at hand.

Anyways...

Czech <a href="http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed032403.cfm" target=new>this out</a> for a tested alternative. (If you don't like THAT source, just google up "Russia Flat Tax" and find a source more to your liking.)

It's doable, but the price is prying congress and the slack-asses of the nation off your tit. That's a hard row to hoe with the way things are currently. I don't think anyone should pay a higher percentage than anyone else, because that just makes people loophole, dodge, duck and move to more success friendly environments. I battled with the IRS for over six years, and after 9/11 decided to quit quibbling over the petty differences and pay what I owed. Know what I found when I decided to "do the right thing"? Of the five different agents I worked with (all very nice, and courteous BTW), not ONE had the same answer to a variety of questions. Our tax code, as it stands is a fucking mess. When it takes a person with a CPA and law degree to get "pretty close" to what is actually owed, there's a problem.

Now, I don't know what the ultimate solution is, but I know what it isn't. What isn't working is the current behemoth that stands in our doorway every April 15th. Loopholes, exceptions, preferential treatment, questionable "shelters", and 1100+ pages of "law" determining who owes what. Horribly inefficient and stupid. Dumbasses that "intended to, but forgot" to vote against their own pay-raises have their fingers in YOUR pockets, and everyone's OK with this? The pork needs to go, and the big-dollar IV into DC needs to be pulled. "How" is the big question.

Personally, I advocate a radical change. Immediate and abrupt. Like it or lump it type change. None of this panty-wearing, sissy "slowly change" horseshit. Just do it, and put out the fires as they come.

PS - Good to see Palimax is with the "winning team", I voted Browne...and no matter what my friends said, it was my fucking vote to "throw away", as they put it. I'll continue to "throw it away" until the powers that be get their heads out of their asses. I suspect that will be a long time coming...

I agree.

L2 you show me any business that is allowed to run in the red by the millions every year and i will concede the government, as it is run today, works perfectly.

Nydia don't bring up social programs as a justification for obscene tax rates and laughable tax codes. I don't feel guilty enough to give you a dime for any of them.

You mean like Strip Clubs?

strip clubs contract with the men and women who work there. it isnt even a valid comparison. Unions are a joke. it's extorion. it's also your CHOICE to participate. you sure you're a business major L2? what's your day job?

Nydia don't bring up social programs as a justification for obscene tax rates and laughable tax codes. I don't feel guilty enough to give you a dime for any of them.

The education system that turned you into an idiot is a social program. The unemployment system that keeps you in Depends after you lose your Frymaster job is a social program. The fireworks you enjoy on July 4th are funded via a social program. The public library is a social program.

I'm guessing you don't have much of a clue. Our tax code may be laughable, but that has NOTHING to do with you. Have you migrated beyond the 1040EZ? The 1040 tax form and schedules A and B are not difficult. They're actually relatively simple, and you only have to do them once in a year. My point? You don't actually KNOW that the tax code is insane. You're just bitching.

And while we're on that subject of you bitching, our tax RATES are NOT obscene. They're among the lowest around. What's your actual tax rate? NOT your tax bracket. Your tax RATE. Your taxes owed according to the tax tables in the 1040 instruction booklet divided by your income. I'm betting you don't even know what your rate is cause you were never smart enough to actually think about it.

I own a home. And I contribute to a 401k. Those are my tax shelters. 2 things ANYONE can do. My tax bracket is, I dunno, 32%? 36%? My 2002 tax rate was ** 16% **. 16 freaking percent. 16% gets me a public library, roads, a military, unemployment benefits, clean water, sewers, etc.

It's a bargain.

not to trivialize your angst mirdorr but i can see why you arent upset and offended by the tax laws that effect you. you most assuredly are getting a bargain and you should be extremely pleased with your situation. the 3 grand a year you pay in taxes is chump change for the benefits you receive. not that you'll see any social security, by the time you start shitting yerself, because that special social program you have been paying into for so long will be...guess what...BANKRUPT! yay for you! way to think ahead!

you make my point for me with your chest thumping and bleeting. don't you see the fundamental flaw in your statement and why it supports my beliefs? you need me to get out the crayons and fingerpaints for you? you're a chump and the governments realizes you're a chump. save your money mirdorr. you're gonna need it for all the depends.

i doubt anyone as shortsighted and narrowminded as you, will ever be anything more than a loan officers wet dream.

don't kid yourself mirdorr, just because you were educated by ythe state doesn't mean everyone was. not a dime of my education was paid for by the taxpayers of this country. i've seen some of the tripe your state run schools turn out and i thank my parents every chance i get that they saved and went without so that i had the best shot possible to make whatever i wanted to out of my life. i dunno maybe your parents just didn't expect much out of you. looks like they knew what you'd become and decided it wasn't worth it.

Yeah, a good chunk of taxes goes to waste with the current system. But imagine if they were extensively cut. The government would be forced to use its funds only on a few basic necessities and would probably be unable to enforce the now limited taxes, leading to extensive, largely unpunished tax evasion, leading to the government having even less funds at its disposal, and so on. Corruption would become prevalent, public services would be horribly degraded, crime would rise dramatically, old folks would wind up relying on their families entirely or starving...

Come to think of it, that's pretty much the situation in Russia right now. Say what you like, but the excess taxes are by far the lesser evil.

not a dime of my education was paid for by the taxpayers of this country

Thank GOD! Please try to use a "." SPACE "capital letter" at the end and start of a new sentence. KMA1234 you have actually made one valid point and that was about the small buisness owners being screwed other than that havent seen you offer your wise knowledge on how to improve the situation. I agree the tax system is fucked up at the moment. How to fix it or what could be done? No clue and I highly doubt anything can or will be done. Suppose one could just move from the good old USA and try to make it. Let me know how ya all do.

With a double income and no kids, the wife and I take a very nice hit each year come tax time and to top it off the school system in our area needs a 23 million dollar expansion...thats gonna hurt.

I own a home. And I contribute to a 401k. Those are my tax shelters. 2 things ANYONE can do.

Amen and toss in there some medical flex spending and you have another tax shelter. If you are in your 20's and 30's and counting on SS to get you through retirement..seek help. Retirement is our responsibilty period and not planning for it is a huge mistake on your part. I look at SS as a nice jesture for this countrys old timers from the younger generation. In its current state well never see it.

Ibudin

not that you'll see any social security, by the time you start shitting yerself, because that special social program you have been paying into for so long will be...guess what...BANKRUPT! yay for you! way to think ahead!

So you didn't even read my post and see the reference to the 401k. Your non-taxpayer-provided education certainly seems to be serving you well.

If baiting idiots on a message board makes me unpopular with said idiots then i guess its safe to say your hate for me ( or my opinions since thats all you know ) is what brings me back night after night. it's fun seeing fanny get so upset the only words he can find to fit his emotional state are "you fucking git". don't you find that entertaining? isn't that why you're baiting me also?

right there, you come here only to piss people off for personal entertainment. That kinda devalidates any point you make as it is basically you just trying to show that you are a "rebel" and "against common belief" how noble.

Lets see some of the first paragraphs on your responses.

you are so far beyond gone you aren't worth replying to. read palimaxs post. if i could change it i would and i do what i can to further that but there are so many sheep like you Fanny that it makes it so difficult.

Lemme get this straight. You're asking me to carry on adult conversation with someone on a internet message board that attacks nearly everyone who disagrees with him with something as childish and intelligent as "you fucking git.." ?

not to trivialize your angst mirdorr but i can see why you arent upset and offended by the tax laws that effect you. you most assuredly are getting a bargain and you should be extremely pleased with your situation. the 3 grand a year you pay in taxes is chump change for the benefits you receive. not that you'll see any social security, by the time you start shitting yerself, because that special social program you have been paying into for so long will be...guess what...BANKRUPT! yay for you! way to think ahead!

um ok. yeah thats exactly what i said L2. same house, 17 years, palace. yeah thats it exactly. coming from a new yorker tho i shouldn't be surprised at the leaps you make nor the baseless confrontation you seek out. how much equity ya got in yer lil studio? doesn't matter, the facts remain you can neither read nor can you turn that reading into rational comprehension.

don't kid yourself mirdorr, just because you were educated by ythe state doesn't mean everyone was. not a dime of my education was paid for by the taxpayers of this country. i've seen some of the tripe your state run schools turn out and i thank my parents every chance i get that they saved and went without so that i had the best shot possible to make whatever i wanted to out of my life. i dunno maybe your parents just didn't expect much out of you. looks like they knew what you'd become and decided it wasn't worth it.

Hey it might just be me but is anyone else noticing a pattern here? Flame the other person who is making a valid point with mindless bullshit that has no supporting evidence and is really just in fact petty insults characteristic of a child who has lost an argument.

Now call me a hypocrite but to expand on what Osgiliath was saying, i feel this is just a cry for attention, to be known through your anonymous actions which face no repercussions on an online gaming board. No desire to be known by your thoughtful opinions, but your blatant retardedness that seems to seep from your hate-filled attention whoring posts into the posts that surround it. Any way to not be just another fucktard who really doesn't matter at all. Sitting there extremely depressed while your parents ignore you.

Now from reading Fandros' posts he comes across as a very stable and insightful individual, stating his opinions for others to debate. You however come across as you intend, a blatant retard, both of you are known for your posts, with a minor difference, Fandros has the respects of most of the people who read this board, you on the other hand, do not.

What was the purpose of this post? I dont exactly know, to think that perhaps it might stop that constant flow of bullshit that streams from your mouth and nose would be inaccurate. But seriously, if you cant make your opinions fill a paragraph without lacing it with insults for the people you are arguing against, dont post. Simple. Go whore attention by jumping off a bridge and surviving, or jumping across the roofs of parked cars on a main street. Both will give you attention, and they both match the volatility that you exude and seem to wallow in on these boards.

Sorry for the hijack ~

As this post is related mostly to america i cant really comment, although i can say here in NZ rich people are taxed more and poor less, with the Average PAYE taken off (not including other taxes, such as GST) is around 33% for a middle class worker. So from the post above alone on american tax rates (16%) which is half of what the same person gets taxed here, seems reasonable to me.

Aside from the personal attack i made up there i will not argue against your points KMA, because the reply that will ensue will not be worth my time, or the other people unfortunate enough to read it.

Fandros ~ you pwn.

Grumb this is exactly what it is.

An attention stunt.

Every other line he types is a put down, insult or some other bullshit. It's obviously making up for something he lacks in life.

And he knows it.

Keep in mind that the 16% is an actual tax rate - my tax bracket (what I'm supposed to pay) is 30something%. I'd imagine it's the same in New Zealand. Your tax bracket might be 33%, but you probably don't pay exactly 33%.

Right mir :)
Taxes have always interested me, unfortunately i havent as of yet sat down to research them, i just pay em ! I'll get around to it someday.

I guess my real beef is the excessive exemptions/loopholes our current system has.

I know we need taxes and I realize that no system is perfect. But I do want a change, I want zip for exemptions.

That would negate the need to file your taxes wouldn't it? Maybe I'm really asking for a Flat Tax system.

The reform I think we really need is a massive one. One that rids our political system of pork barrel projects, rider bills and lobby interest groups.

Straight up in your face blunt and direct politics. No more behind the closed door political barnstorming.

Then perhaps we could tackle the monster that is our Tax Code.

It's time for a change, and I full well realize I don't have the answers. But thanks to the folks here I now have more food for thought in this regard.

Christopher...

Aka Fandros

ANd just for the record here..

I support anything that
A. Lowers my taxes
B. Still allows for a effective and efficent government

(And I DONT think privatization is a always a good thing... shit.. look at private prisons.. fucking mess)

thanks for the personal attention grumblin. i feel so much better now knowing that someone who contributed even less to the conversation than anyone has taken the time out of their day to post voluminous amounts of ramblings to me. i'm touched.

since you haven't much of a clue about what this thread is about i'll try and steer you back in the right direction. it's about our government enslaving it's people. it's about taxes. this country survived and prospered for, what, 130 years without an income tax system. imo, read that again, we can and should learn to live without it again. just because some people have been sucking off the tit of the taxpayers for such a long time that they can't see any other way to live, doesn't mean it's impossible. be responsible for your decisions and actions. save your fucking money for the things that are important instead of blowing every dime of disposable income on a new car every few years to impress your neighbors or a 4 th TV for the bathroom or whatever so many in this county blow on a daily basis because they think they will always have that safety net to save their dumb asses when things go wrong. that safety net is an illusion. it has become a hammock for so many in this country that it will be very difficult to get rid of it.

if you don't think far ahead enough in the future and save for when you become too old to be productive, guess what, you weren't being very smart and those decisions have repercussions and consequences. none of them my fault or responsibility to fix. if you don't save enough money to pay for the hospital bills when you get hurt or contribute to an insurance plan to pay your expenses for you, guess what, those decisions have consequences. you see a theme here? so many people in this country depend on the government and the taxpayers funds to bail themselves out of extremely poor decision making patterns. you're on welfare? you can't afford to feed your children because you make poor decisions? well hi there mr fucking consequence! it's easy to just play the guilt card, like nydia does to perfection, to make most people feel guilty enough to agree to be compassionate and try and make up for that poor decision making process. i'm tired of it. i don't feel guilty enough about it anymore. it isn't working and it's just getting worse.

grumblin did you read any of palimaxs post? did you go to the libertarian webpage and READ and COMPREHEND any of their ideas or philosophies? didn't think so. my words would be wasted on people like you so i don't take the time to put it into my own words and call it my own idea. i take it for granted that people actually wanna LEARN about the topic enough to go *click* scan read read scan read read read. it isn't my job to educate you nor would i be effective at it as i have little patience for people like fanny and L2 and marz and seemingly now, you. learn for yourself.

now i know the tone of my post may offend you and you may take it personal and get a lil huffy but im only replying to you in a way your previous post sugests you enjoy conversing on. undertsand? call me a fucking git and i'm gonna talk to you and respond to you the way i think you will be able understand and follow along. approach me like an adult and treat me with civility and, guess what, I TREAT YOU THE SAME WAY! if someone comes up to me on the street and demands a quarter for a cup of coffee and takes a swing at me when i tell him to fuck off, i'n gonna fuckin kick his ass. if that same person introduces himself and engages me in small talk and makes a comment that he is dyin for a cup of coffee or hasn't had breakfast yet and is starving, then i'd prolly buy him some coffee and a couple doughnuts. see the difference? i treat people on this board the way they treat me. i've never personally attacked 90 percent of the people that post here.

mirdorr i can't wait till the circle of your experiences expands beyond what you know.

i can't wait for you to sell a house for a 50 - 100k profit and then turn around and NOT spend all of that profit on your new full time residence. capital gains. heard of it?

i can't wait till someone dies and leaves you an inheritance and you go thru probate. bye bye 50 percent. based on what? you made money so the government should get some too?

i can't wait till you make more than 40k a year and watch uncle sam bend you over.

just because it isn't or didn't happen to you doesn't mean it can't or won't. don't be so naive to think the world revolves around what you know and experience in your life.

Actually KMA you nailed my frustration right on the head.

I am well over 40K and Uncle Sam has time and again applied his tender tax loving to me for years. While leaving peers in my field alone simply because they have more kids, or are married or play dodgy games with their cash flow.

For once I actually get a glimpse of thought behind your usually pointless rants. Keep up the discussion man, it sounds like you've given thought to this area that I'm openly admiting my confusion about.

No, it's not your job to educate us. But since this thread is openly a discussion thread why bother coming here unless you;

a) Want to argue
b) Bored to tears
c) Or perhaps you do have something to offer/learn here.

Our Goverment does require funds to operate. I agree that the current form of taxation is quickly becoming a overbearing burden for me and those like me.

Do you have anything but slander and argument? I've treated you with respect in this thread and to be honest I'd not have used you for a whipping boy all this time if you weren't such a lout. You attacked friends of mine and drew my attention.

Put aside the saber and talk. Or fuck off, your choice...

Christopher...

aka Fandros

For the longest time i supported and celebrated the Republicans and most of their conservative agenda religiously. then one day, a guy i met at a praire dog shoot confronted me about my undying devotion to the republicans. he got in my face and demanded i think about what i was supporting and confronted me with examples of every day life. he asked hard questions and wouldn't let me slide with a "i don't have all the answers" . strangely enough this guy was coming from a position of having served in the military and seen action in panama and is a gun owner in this country. who would make a better a republican than this guy? he should be on my team and want the same things i want. i thought.

he gave me the website that palimax posted and got me interested enough and pissed off enough, having put me in a position to defend my beliefs to the extent he had, to look into and find the holes i knew existed in his arguements. it didn't work out that way. it totally changed the way i look at the world and view the government of this country. it's about being free people. free of government interferrence and tyrany. free to choose and be accountable and live my life the way i want to.

politicians think we aren't capable of making good decisions so they think they need to make them for us or make the decisions they think we need to make. its a self fulfilling prophecy. i think everyone should have to make their own decisions and live with those consequences. if it's a family member of mine or a close friend thats making poor decisions and having to live with harsh consequences, then i feel it's my responsibility to educate them and help them in any way that i choose. some people may think i'm a self serving self interested asshole because i think that way but any of my friends and family know thats inaccurate.

if putting the label of libertarian on me gives you more insight into why i say what i say, then so be it.

i thank my parents every chance i get that they saved and went without so that i had the best shot possible to make whatever i wanted to out of my life.Are they disappointed that it didn't work out? :) (And I DONT think privatization is a always a good thing... shit.. look at private prisons.. fucking mess) I don't think privitization in *everything* is a good idea either. I just think that while it's the government's responsibility to ensure that we HAVE prisons, it's not necessarily the government's responsibilty to run them.

I think we can all agree that public libraries, parks, and other "signs of a great society" are clearly "good things." I don't mind paying taxes on them. What's a library, Dad? Why, it's a place where bums go to BM. No, honestly, I don't mind paying for them. Hell, I don't mind paying for football statiums and urban renewal either -- but other people do. Fuck'em! Let 'em buy books. Let 'em build their own convention center downtown. Why should I pay for a library. It's a good guestion, I guess.

If you're so goddamned fedup with your taxes, do something about them on a level that you can. Run for the smallest government seat you can get yourself into. Town council. That's where REAL decisions get made.

I'm not a big reform drum-beater, but a long road-trip and a short audio-book selection left me listening to the Jesse Ventura book where he discusses how he got into politics. It's a FACINATING listen (he reads it himself).

They started putting his city-council meetings on public access. Every vote was 7-0, 7-0, 7-0... ...in favor of things he didn't like, and always giving sweetheart deals to someone's buddy. So, he campains and gets himself on the council. The next year it's 6-1, 6-1, 6-1, 5-2, 6-1. The next year he got a friend on the council -- another fed-up neighbor. 5-2, 5-2, 4-3, 5-2, 4-3. By this time, people were interested. Eventually they made change.

Shit or get off the pot. At least a couple of us are "wasting our votes."

If i knew then what i know now, it would have been a bit different. I've been supporting myself since i was 17 and love what i do for a living and am fairly succesful at it so yeah i think they're happy for me. aren't you pali? :p

mirdorr i can't wait till the circle of your experiences expands beyond what you know.

You are making generic statements to avoid admitting that you're specifically wrong. Did you get around to figuring out your tax rate?


i can't wait for you to sell a house for a 50 - 100k profit and then turn around and NOT spend all of that profit on your new full time residence. capital gains. heard of it?

I have a house closing next week and I'll have capital gains. I'll pay taxes on it. That's the way things work. You think your property should appreciate for free? If it did, we'd all be in the home remodeling business, now wouldn't we?


i can't wait till someone dies and leaves you an inheritance and you go thru probate. bye bye 50 percent. based on what? you made money so the government should get some too?

You were just bitching about Republicans. Are you forgetting that they're working to get this changed?


i can't wait till you make more than 40k a year and watch uncle sam bend you over.

One of your problems is that you're not nearly as smart as you think you are. You don't think things through. Look at what I said my tax bracket was and work backwards. It's not difficult.

But of course, you don't know what I mean by that, do you? If you did, you might understand your tax burden and could actually address specifics. Perhaps the economics portion of your home schooling was deficient.

I've been supporting myself since i was 17

Ever wonder why your parents tossed you out as soon as it was legally possible? What you get for your 17th birthday? A set of luggage?

Fairtax.org is the website for more info...

I've always felt that the assumption that "prices will drop 15% to 25%" is a MASSIVE assumption. Best case, that would happen over time, and the consumer would eat it for at least months, driving the economy into a recession.

Worse case? Prices do drop, but companies see an opportunity to make at least an extra 1% or 5% in profits. So you'd see serious inflation.

Personally, I think a flat income tax is a better alternative.

sorry for makin ya think i cared much mirdorr. you accept the fact that you should give money that you earned to the government so it can spend it on whatever they want with little or no accountability, not finacial but personal, so we have very little to discuss. i don't think the government has the RIGHT to take money that i've earned. i don't think you have any RIGHT to tell me how to spend it either. see?

congrats on your house sale. paying capital gains IS how it works. it isn't how it SHOULD work imo tho.

You think your property should appreciate for free?

it doesn't appreciate for free. it appreciates because i pay for the upkeep. when the government maintains my roof or paves my driveway then they can have whatever percentage they claim they are entitled to now.

i'm not going to get into a specifics arguements with you mirdorr because its pointless. your situation is different from mine. that's pretty obvious isn't it? what i do take issue with is the fact that you think the status quo is ok because of how it effects you in your limited scope of experience.

if you have no complaints about the way the system is run these days then so be it. it's your right. there are quite a few people who disagree vehemently with you. well educated intelligent insightful free thinking people.

why is my opinion making you so mad mirdorr? why are you obsessed with how and where i was educated? if you wanna know..ask! stop looking like such a child with your irrational assumptions and message board bravado and name calling. if you loved me as much as your posts lead me to believe then im surprised you don't remember me posting extensively on the public education thread or the organized religion thread and figure out for yourself what type of education i received.

PS: the fascists claim they are working on lots of things. doesn't mean it's not gonna get forgotten about or bartered away as most of the policies they campaign on usually end up.

Every night on the way home I listen to two gentleman on the AM dial.

Michael Medved and ( gods I'm getting old I don't recall his name) but he titles himself as a Republitarian. Interesting African American out of El Darado(sp). But he was a card carrying Libretarian for years and has recently picked up a few republican causes.

I'd put forward that I'm more along those lines myself now. But, the Lib party attracts so many fringe elements it makes it hard to take them seriously. I'm not totally unaware of their causes or stances.

Christopher...

Ever wonder why your parents tossed you out as soon as it was legally possible?

keep fishin kid. even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while. you're seriously due.

it doesn't appreciate for free. it appreciates because i pay for the upkeep.

Wrong again. In your limited life experience, you seem to have missed the real estate market of the last decade, eh?


i'm not going to get into a specifics arguements with you mirdorr because its pointless.

And it's pointless because you don't HAVE any specific arguments. You're just whining.


what i do take issue with is the fact that you think the status quo is ok because of how it effects you in your limited scope of experience.

I'm attempting to expand my scope. One more time. What is your tax rate? Do you even know the amount of taxes you pay each year?

Now get back to Borders and buy another one of those "You don't really have to pay taxes - taxes are against the law! And it's enforced slavery by our government!" books.

the only real problem i have with most libertarians is their stance on decriminalizing drugs. i'm not as big a supporter of the war on drugs as i used to be but i don't see the benefits outweighing the negatives when it comes to people losing touch with reality and medicating themselves to the point of losing control. i can understand the position from a purely economical perspective but i can't bring myself to condone it. i do have a problem with where that leaves me in regards to the legalization of as powerful an intoxicant as alcohol and where we should draw the line. i'm finding it harder and harder to defend the drug war when alcohol is used as a comparison.

Wrong again. In your limited life experience, you seem to have missed the real estate market of the last decade, eh?


sorry but i have no control over whether or not prince wants to buy a house in my neighborhood and the resulting fluctuations in the real estate market but that hardly entitles the government to charge me taxes on the basis that i made money. it does in your book tho and that whats makes me laugh at you.

This all finally wound down into something worth reading. The interesting thing about all this is I agree with KMA on alot of the issues he's pointed out.

perhaps it might stop that constant flow of bullshit

My contributions aside, at the time i didn't think you had it in you to make intelligent conversation. You have proven me wrong three or four times already hah, i know it doesnt matter to you but my respect for you has risen slighty out of the small pit in the ground where it was before. Keep it up !

I didn't add as much to the conversation as i would have liked because i am not as well informed as i'd like to be, and thus havent formed a strong enough opinion to state and defend, if i had one, i would. Instead i'll read through all the great posts and maybe form one sometime.

Gogo KMA.

we all gonna start singing now?

:p

it's also your CHOICE to participate.

I know in certain states, particularly Vermont, one has to join a union of a specific profession if one is available. One doesn't have to be active in the union, the only requirement is that people pay their dues.

. i've seen some of the tripe your state run schools turn out

The current education system may not be perfect, but it gives everyone the opportunity to learn and get an education. There certainly are some major flaws involved, but the people whom don't get any education simply aren't applying themselves. If one doesn't wish to learn or work then the greatest schools in the world won't motivate somebody.

i dunno maybe your parents just didn't expect much out of you. looks like they knew what you'd become and decided it wasn't worth it.

I generally don't like to insult people. However, I noticed that you have a rather arrogant tone and approach when communicating with people and yet you can't even come close to making a single post with proper punctuation. Maybe you should reflect on your own short-comings before you point out others'.

i don't see the benefits outweighing the negatives when it comes to people losing touch with reality and medicating themselves to the point of losing control.

(Ohhh boy, I'm gonna get some heat for this...)

Grandfather would put it like this: "Thinnin' out the herd."

As callous as it sounds, we would be minus a few extra folks. Those that survived, or learned moderation, bully for them. Where the rubber meets the road, and compassion aside, would we really "miss" the ones that managed to eliminate themselves? Darwin would have a field-day, but I firmly believe that we would be better off in the long run.

Another fun possibility that I've pondered up with regards to stopping the spending abuses flowing from DC is to calculate your 10%, 15%, or whatever flat percentage (to be applied across the board) of tax you owe, and - this would be the fun part- YOU get a selection of agencies / govn't entities to send percentages of that tax liability to. You'd see a LOT of waste disappear in a big hurry. It might also help people feel as if they had more control than just voting for the lesser of two or three evils.

For example, a friend of mine opposed to the war showed me where it was estimated to cost nearly $400.00 per person in the US to support the war. I explained, "I'll take two." She failed the find the humor in it. But, there are ample dollars spent in things she finds important that I don't. So, I told her, I'll trade her burden of the war cost for my burden of any number of programs, and we can both go away happy. (She still didn't see the humor in it...but whaddya gonna do?) This would take that very principal and put it into action.

Fun conversation here. Another fun one is "Design a Constitution" - but let's not get too many irons in the fire. :)

you picked up on the whole condescending thing? good for you. it's intentional. people attack me personally and sometimes i respond to it. it's fun. it makes people angry and makes them upset. makes em post more. makes me laugh more. it also makes my point. sorry you and others don't like the fact that i don't capitalize the first word in every new sentence nor do i capitalize my i's and yes my punctuation sucks. if you don't like it and you get a headache trying to read my posts and understand my points then you are an idiot for continuing to do so. my advice? stop.

was that condescending enough for you to understand? do you get the joke?

your comment about the school system was not lost on me and i agree with you completely. my point is the majority of the people DON'T want to be there and DON'T want to apply themselves and i DON'T want to have to waste my money on something that doesn't work the majority of the time.

If you don't like it and you get a headache trying to pay for education of the population then you are an idiot for continuing to do so. My advice? Stop.

COMON PEOPLE NOW, SMILE ON YOUR BROTHER....

little help for ya shitbag.
www.englishspace.ort.org/...ps_mv1.htm (http://www.englishspace.ort.org/esdemo/Lessons/Module1/UnitB/Activ_1/Caps_mv1.htm)

http://www.shift.jp.org/200ok/shift.gif

Find That Button!! ^^^^^

your explicit displays of affection are flattering and touching and appreciated L2. i've always wanted my very own message board monkey to play with and cuddle with and love and squeeze. don't ever forget me L2. these are the best of times.


faust i think your take on things isn't as far off as mine and i find alot of what you write hilarious. my fascination and obsession with L2 knows no bounds tho.

If you don't like it and you get a headache trying to pay for education of the population then you are an idiot for continuing to do so. My advice? Stop.

i don't wanna go to jail. that's what happens to you when you break the law. any other extremely complicated societal scenarios you wanna discuss or was that all you could come up with?

No one's forcing you to stay in America. If you don't like the way this country does things, leave. Go live in the Middle East. We'll see how long that lasts.

Don't want to pay taxes? Fine. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. No one is a slave to the system, because we can leave whenever we want.

If we were truly expansionist we could grab funds that way I guess. Invading other countries and selling off their resources to fund our countries needs. But there is a cap to that and pitfalls galore.

Silly, trading with countries is a much cheaper way of getting rich.

War is very destructive. World war even moreso.

Half of the goal of globalization is to make everyone so damn rich and so dependant on being rich by trade that going to war would be economic suicide.

If we were technologically advanced enough perhaps we could take to mining Space for our needs. But again that's a dream world. We're not living in Gene Roddenberries world here ;(

If you had robot mining for all production, and you are against taxes as income redistribution, how would j random person earn any money?

Think about it. Imagine a world where you have robots capable of doing everything from mining to serving coffee to manufacturing.

Now, imagine how your father, or your uncle, or your janitor, would support themselves.

Personally, I advocate a radical change. Immediate and abrupt. Like it or lump it type change. None of this panty-wearing, sissy "slowly change" horseshit. Just do it, and put out the fires as they come.

Mass-starvation change! I mean, eventually, the economy would recover from shock treatment.

Eventually, we die of old age.

Nydia don't bring up social programs as a justification for obscene tax rates and laughable tax codes. I don't feel guilty enough to give you a dime for any of them.

Screw guilt. Social programs are one of the best/cheapest forms of law enforcement out there!

If people are well enough off that it isn't worth it for them to break the law, they *shock* don't break the law nearly as much or as badly.

And hell, you get most of the money back from consumer spending/taxation/etc. Poor people tend to spend every last dime they have, their money has a high velocity.

I own a home. And I contribute to a 401k. Those are my tax shelters. 2 things ANYONE can do. My tax bracket is, I dunno, 32%? 36%? My 2002 tax rate was ** 16% **. 16 freaking percent. 16% gets me a public library, roads, a military, unemployment benefits, clean water, sewers, etc.

Shockingly enough, behaviour tends to be dictated by tax bracket rather than tax rate.

If you are trying to decide if the effort of doing more work for more money is worth it, you care about the amount of money you get for your work. Which is based off your marginal rate.

Why Probate:

Because inherited wealth leads to a society where most of the rich people didn't get there themselves, they just inherited it.

Who should wield economic power, people who managed to earn millions/billions of dollars, or people whose great grand daddy did?

I've always felt that the assumption that "prices will drop 15% to 25%" is a MASSIVE assumption. Best case, that would happen over time, and the consumer would eat it for at least months, driving the economy into a recession.

Prices are VERY inelastic downward. They eventually fall, but people really really hate selling something for less than they paid for it, and don't like massive pay cuts, etc.

Mass-starvation change!

What makes you believe that an abrupt change from the current tax system to a flat tax system (with no exceptions, exemptions, etc.) would cause mass starvation? I don't know about you, but I do not require the existence of the government and it's plethora of nanny programs to eat. I'm sure the majority of the people here are not requiring the government in order to eat. Do you remember when the "government shut down" a few years back? I wouldn't have known, except some people were wetting their pants about it in the media. I still ate.

You will be VERY hard pressed to convince me that a quick change to a different tax system will cause "mass-starvation". I do encourage you to try though, as there may be something I didn't think of.

One last thing, then I must get to work!

Because inherited wealth leads to a society where most of the rich people didn't get there themselves, they just inherited it.

Who cares? There will be a time when some idiot down the family line blows the entire thing and ends up broke as a joke. If they don't, good for them. What does it matter where the money came from?

Who should wield economic power, people who managed to earn millions/billions of dollars, or people whose great grand daddy did?

Once again, who cares? It's not up to "us" as a society to tell someone, "You can't have that money, you didn't earn it." By that same idea, one should also remove any type of lottery system. Because, hey, they didn't "earn it". As far as I'm concerned, they did earn it, because they were born to the right parents. How many people are over 40 when they make their assloads of money? On average, they get just over 30 years to spend it, and then the govn't get it? You'd just make the rich go somewhere else, and out the door goes "economic power", as you put it. Either that, or you'd stifle innovation and effort for people later in their years.

Besides, if it wasn't for spoiled rich kids, we wouldn't have Paris Hilton videos and "Uncle Kennedy's Drivers-Ed and Swimming School". (Sorry, that last one was BAAAAAAD.)

"Behaviour"...waiiiit a minute. Where are you from, he, who so happily hands out economic advice? :)

OK, I'm really out of here for real this time.

COME BACK FAUST!

Still here and reading/learning.

Thanks for the good discussion...

Fandros

Because inherited wealth leads to a society where most of the rich people didn't get there themselves, they just inherited it.

Why even bring up this idea when it's flat out not true? The vast majority (hell, not just majority, but most of it) of wealth in this country is made, not inherited.

GOGO Paris Hilton!

Heh. America's favorite slut hasn't really inherited anything yet.

heh i hope some guy comes out of no where, who is the true aire to the family

No one's forcing you to stay in America. If you don't like the way this country does things, leave. Go live in the Middle East. We'll see how long that lasts.

The politicians we elected to office disagree with each other all the time over how our country should be run.

Are you seriously suggesting that everytime someone expresses dislike for the status quo or believes we could do something better that they are disqualified from citizenship?

Taxes aren't going to go away. If he hates paying them so much, he can leave.

I never said he was disqualified form citizenship. But if he hates having to pay for the education systems so much, he is invited to walk away. Otherwise, feel free to shut the fuck up, because education is necessary to run a country like this.

Unless, of course, you have a better idea for paying for it?

That's kinda why I started this thread Kein.

It's not about Not paying taxes. It's about making changes to get rid of the complications/loopholes/exemptions.

It's about keeping the middle man from paying larger portions of his salary to Income Taxes.

It's about perhaps getting rid of the need to file taxes at all. Since there would be no exemptions everything would be settled each payday.

Christopher...

I never disagreed with that. I'm saying that paying for things like school systems are obviously crucial for our entire system. Without that, we would be a country of janitors. That's not going to change, so if one despises it so much, they can go live somewhere with policies more to their liking.

I imagine you'd still need to file taxes. I think there'd still be certain types of exemptions, and those can vary - so there'd be a need to file a return.

Why does there have to be a set of exemptions.

That's flat out the biggest reason I'm getting honked off at the system.

Christopher...

Just trying to figure out if you're worth replying to or not Kein. Humor me or don't, you asked for my opinion and if you don't want it then by all means, save me the time of replying by not answering my question. How old are you?

Well look who finally poked his head in. And with grammar skills vastly improved to boot.

Why does there have to be a set of exemptions

Because the flat tax would most likely not be implemented as a simple flat tax. The tax rate would probably vary somewhat according to income, and there would be "credits" implemented for people in various groups (the poor, families, those making under $x, etc.) to satisfy the liberal side of the debate.

A truly flat tax that's high enough to maintain current government income levels would actually raise taxes for lower wage earners, so there'd have to be compromises.

No, a flat tax would not have to vary at all.

The reason you see variations in the current tax rate is due to the massive exemptions/loopholes.

Set one tax rate, a percentage rate straight out and be done with it.

I want them to quit making way for the weak and so called downtrodden and expecting me to make up for it....

Christopher...

I want them to quit making way for the weak and so called downtrodden and expecting me to make up for it....

What do you mean by that statement? Curious.

No, a flat tax would not have to vary at all.

The reason you see variations in the current tax rate is due to the massive exemptions/loopholes.

No, that's not the reason, but that's not really a necessary discussion.

In the 90's, with smaller federal budgets than we have now, congressional leaders and presidential candidates were estimating that we'd need a 17% flat tax rate to maintain current incomes.

The budget and federal income have both gone up since then.

I don't think you're gonna see a 17% flat tax bill passed - that would make it worse for the people who pay now pay 10% and 15% income taxes. A flat tax rate at 10% would not support current federal spending, obviously.

Oh I realize some folks are going to feel the brunt of the change.

But I'm feeling the lack of change. I still think we could do just fine at 20% flat. Right now the Middle Class folks are assuming more and more of the weight.

I shouldn't have to pay for folks having 10 kids. I work just as hard as they do kapiche?

Cut out ALL exemptions and ALL loopholes. Then adjust the flat rate as deemed neccessary...

Christopher...

So you think a bill that raises income taxes for the majority of Americans is gonna pass?


I shouldn't have to pay for folks having 10 kids. I work just as hard as they do kapiche?

Never said you didn't. Yet, I bet if you did the numbers, you'd find that you're raising your own taxes. You'd certainly be raising mine. And for what reason? No reason. Sure, the current tax code is a mess, but that's not a reason to raise tax rates.

Tax credits, etc. don't have much do do with people who have 10 kids. Much of it is a compromise with the idea of a "living wage." Flat taxes don't "scale," especially for people who work low wage, hourly jobs. Implement a flat tax percentage that's too high, and people who, for instance, make minimum wage (who maybe would afford to share an apartment and a beater car) suddenly can't pay their bills (whether they have kids or not).

I think the solution that would probably make the most sense is to make the tax brackets "flat taxes."

If you're in the 10% bracket, you pay 10%. Period.

If you're in the 36% tax bracket, you pay 36%. Period.

HOWEVER. I'd want to see serious research. If we eliminate loopholes, we should be able to lower the percentages for each bracket.

Yes and no Mirr.

Just because a person lacks the skills/desire/etc/etc to earn a higher paying wage shouldn't lower his responsibility to pay for the government that's likely enchancing his income with monies paid by those of us with a better job....oh gods that was a hella run on sentence.

It's a percentage of his income, not a set dollar amount.

Hell, if the combined federal/state ( I live in Utah btw, horrible taxes here) tax rates were no more than 30% of my income I'd be doing much better than I am at nearly 35% of my income to both...

So yes, I would see a drastic increase in my own disposable income.

I honestly think that if every working American automatically paid 17% of their income to Taxes then there would be enough budget.

Hell, give the Feds a Set income each year and make them accountable for spending said cash. Rider bills and pork barrel projects need to openedup to the light of day...

Christopher...

Just because a person lacks the skills/desire/etc/etc to earn a higher paying wage shouldn't lower his responsibility to pay for the government that's likely enchancing his income with monies paid by those of us with a better job....oh gods that was a hella run on sentence.

It's a percentage of his income, not a set dollar amount.

That's why it's WORSE. An extra few percentage points to a guy who makes $8/hour is a lot worse than it is to a guy who makes, say, $30k. If my taxes go up, I'm ok. If taxes go up for the guy making $8/hour, he's probably not OK.


Hell, if the combined federal/state ( I live in Utah btw, horrible taxes here) tax rates were no more than 30% of my income I'd be doing much better than I am at nearly 35% of my income to both...

I've touched on this several times. Tax brackets don't mean much in reality. The more you make, the farther off they are from what you really pay. Take your 2002 tax form. Divide taxes owed by your salary. I'll bet you a plat you're not paying 30% or 35%.

You will be VERY hard pressed to convince me that a quick change to a different tax system will cause "mass-starvation". I do encourage you to try though, as there may be something I didn't think of.

My apologies, I confounded your suggestion with other peoples "abolish all government" arguements.

Once again, who cares? It's not up to "us" as a society to tell someone, "You can't have that money, you didn't earn it."

No, I want to say "those who work hard and manufacture wealth will tend to have the largest amount of economic power".

The economy isn't some holy grail, and property isn't a fundamental right to me. I want the economy and property rights to have a purpose.

You have the right to exclusively control publication of a book because it leads to more good books being published. Not because intellectual property is an axiom, but because granting you that right, and taking away that right from the rest of us, makes most of us better off.

Money attracts money. The USA has had punative probate for quite a long time, and you might want to compare the histories of the near-billionare millionares in america to the similar folk in places like Europe. Most of the people in Europe who are rich inherited their money, while most of the people in America who are rich made their money.

By that same idea, one should also remove any type of lottery system.

If there was a danger that most economic power would fall under the hands of lottery winners, you are god damn right, we should scale back lotteries.

But this isn't a danger, and it isn't a problem.

Because, hey, they didn't "earn it". As far as I'm concerned, they did earn it, because they were born to the right parents. How many people are over 40 when they make their assloads of money? On average, they get just over 30 years to spend it, and then the govn't get it? You'd just make the rich go somewhere else, and out the door goes "economic power", as you put it. Either that, or you'd stifle innovation and effort for people later in their years.

The government gets a cut. Hell, you could just charge the people who inherit is income tax on their windfall -- they got paid really well to be some rich person's kid. An easy job, but somebody has to do it.

Who cares? There will be a time when some idiot down the family line blows the entire thing and ends up broke as a joke. If they don't, good for them. What does it matter where the money came from?

Because you want people who are good at making wealth in control of wealth.

In fact, being good at making wealth should be the means by which you allocate wealth, for the most part.

Why even bring up this idea when it's flat out not true? The vast majority (hell, not just majority, but most of it) of wealth in this country is made, not inherited.

Of course it is true, because america has had punative probate taxes for how long?

Why does there have to be a set of exemptions.

Realized Capital gains, will it be taxed? (ie, your house is appraised at 100 k more than it was when you bought it, do you pay tax on 100 k before you sell it?)
Unrealized capital gains, will it be taxed? (You buy stocks who don't generate dividends, but rather do periodic stock buy-backs, hence causing their value to go up, and allowing people who choose to liquidate do so in a tax-free manner)
Income from currency fluxuations, will it be taxed?
Can you carry losses over from year to year?
Corperate income, will it be taxed? And taxed again as individual income?
What if there are 3 corperate shells, will they all be taxed?
Can you deduct the cost of earning your income?
Can you deduct transportation costs to/from your place of employment?
Can you deduct education costs? How close does it have to be to your field?
Are benefits fully taxable?
How about company cars?
What documentation is required to show personal vs profit based use of a resource?
Do you taxed used goods?
Are payments to your children taxed? What if they do work for you?
What restrictions on capital gains buffering will there be?

I've got more, if you can finish with these. After all, your tax system is supposed to be simple, so the answers should be quick.

A truly flat tax that's high enough to maintain current government income levels would actually raise taxes for lower wage earners, so there'd have to be compromises.

Simple, national dividend.

Everyone gets a cheque for X$ every month. Spend it as you like! And dismantle welfare and cut back unemployment insurance and social security.

Remember, social welfare is cheap law enforcement. You don't want your neighbour to be 10,000 times poorer than you, because then the single most profitable thing they could do is steal from you.

Mir...

I took my last paycheck total Gross and added up my state and Federal. Then divided that total by my gross...

34.7 Tax outta my gross...Granted there was some significant overtime on that check ( 24 hours worth of it.../shudder)

Single man claiming only myself and making what I do without owning a home ( d...i...v...o...r...c...e) has no shelters or exemptions to speak of.

I'm not alone in this, and many folks simply don't understand why folks like me seek a change.

A change will come, unless the bleeding heart special interest liberals get back in charge. Then it'll be Pork barrel polka baby...

So tell me again what I'm seeing wrong here....

/looks for the plat to appear in his bank account from Mir ;P

Christopher...

Interesting stuff on fairtax.org, but I'm skeptical.

If things are sold to people that aren't US citizens, would they pay the ~23% tax on it?
- If yes, then wouldn't that hurt our exports?
- If no, then couldn't a citizen of another country act as a middleman to bypass the tax?

Also, what determines when the tax applies? If one person or company buys components, puts something together, and resells the finished product, and then the buyer uses it for a while then sells to someone else (maybe a pawn shop for example), at what steps does the tax apply? Is there a clear distinction between a finished product and a part that can't be considered a standalone product?

And if most people are going to pay less in taxes, yet the government is going to receive at least as much money from taxes, then either a small group of people are going to end up paying a LOT more or the government will spend less. I assume there would be a lot of IRS layoffs since the flat tax system is supposed to be a much simpler system, so fewer people are needed to administer it? (What about tax preparation services--wouldn't people that work for them lose their jobs too?)

My apologies, I confounded your suggestion with other peoples "abolish all government" arguements.

No problem. I realize fully that no matter what, some form of govn't will fill in where one is lacking - so no abolish the govn't talk from me.

Most of the people in Europe who are rich inherited their money, while most of the people in America who are rich made their money.

While I don't have any hard and fast figures to prove or disprove this, I don't think this is as accurate now, as it may have been 100 or 150 years ago.

Even with that being the case, I still do not feel it reinforces the thought that there should be a financial punishment for death.

If there was a danger that most economic power would fall under the hands of lottery winners, you are god damn right, we should scale back lotteries.

But this isn't a danger, and it isn't a problem.

I don't believe that the danger exists in the lottery, nor do I believe that inheritance generates this danger. A person with a trillion dollars will still pay the same for a pair of shoes that I do. I have lost nothing by Bill Gates passing away and leaving all his money to his son or nephew or whomever. He still needs to eat, and still needs to buy things that are manufactured by others. I feel that handing over ungodly amounts of money (by threat of death or imprisonment) to people who have already shown immense ineptitude in handling the money of others is not appropriate.

The government gets a cut. Hell, you could just charge the people who inherit is income tax on their windfall -- they got paid really well to be some rich person's kid. An easy job, but somebody has to do it.

It has already been taxed as an income, when the original amount was made. PLUS taxes on the income via investment dividends and interest gained. That's the same dollar taxed twice: when earned, and when worked. Move it to a different owner and that's three times against the original dollar. I've been on the shit end of this stick (small amount - but principle is the same), and 48% is to excess. The part that burns me the most is that those that can afford it (more than my $35,000.00 of which $18k ended up gone) can loophole left and right and pay less than I did on a MUCH larger amount handed down.

Because you want people who are good at making wealth in control of wealth.

Who gets to make the decision of who is and is not good at making wealth? Too many chances for a bias to enter into the decision.

In fact, being good at making wealth should be the means by which you allocate wealth, for the most part.

The people that make the wealth should be in control of their wealth. That includes what happens with it when they are no longer able to spend it due to death.

The big problem I see is, it appears that you think (correct me if I guessed wrong) that there is a fixed amount of financial power which has to be shared. I do not believe that money is a closed system with only X amount of capital. Innovation, effort and / or luck can put someone in the driver's seat financially without taking that same amount away from somewhere else. A person with a trillion dollars still has to pay the farmer what the farmer wants to charge for grain. The trillionaire has to hire someone to fix his car, and still has to pay money to buy that car.

Realized Capital gains, will it be taxed? (ie, your house is appraised at 100 k more than it was when you bought it, do you pay tax on 100 k before you sell it?)

Yes.

Unrealized capital gains, will it be taxed? (You buy stocks who don't generate dividends, but rather do periodic stock buy-backs, hence causing their value to go up, and allowing people who choose to liquidate do so in a tax-free manner)

When cashed out, yes.

Income from currency fluxuations, will it be taxed?

Yes.

Can you carry losses over from year to year?

No.

Corperate income, will it be taxed? And taxed again as individual income?

- No. Corp taxes just end up on the customer, passed on via increased cost.

-No. Not taxed again, (see above), just taxed to the individual.

What if there are 3 corperate shells, will they all be taxed?
Can you deduct the cost of earning your income?

- No. See above.

- No. No deductions.

Can you deduct transportation costs to/from your place of employment?

No. No deductions.

Can you deduct education costs? How close does it have to be to your field?

- No.

- N/A due to answer to first.

Are benefits fully taxable?

No.

How about company cars?

No.

What documentation is required to show personal vs profit based use of a resource?

None.

Do you taxed used goods?

No. (Unless by selling a used good you have more than the original cost of the item, ie- collectibles, antiques, gold, etc.)

Are payments to your children taxed? What if they do work for you?

- Dependent children? No.

- After 18? Yes, regardless of living arrangements, etc.

What restrictions on capital gains buffering will there be?

Gimme a "fer instance".

Realize, this is just off the top of my head, and in a "how I would do it" situation. I do not pretend to speak for others, and will not pretend to have all the answers. I also am not basing this off of the ideas from the folks at fair-tax.org.

Mir...

I took my last paycheck total Gross and added up my state and Federal. Then divided that total by my gross...

DAMMIT.

Dude. You gotta know how taxes work, or you gotta listen to me about how to compute this. Do I really need to explain how the tax number you're using has nothing to do with your actual tax rate?

The tax deductions on your paycheck are set up BY YOU. You can set them up to be 50% of your salary, or you can set them up to be 2% of your salary.

You need to use the numbers off your tax return.

No Mir you don't have to explain that to me.

That's how it works bud. 38 years old and since I have jack for exemptions I pay a very high rate...

Please, don't speak to me in that tone and expect me to accept you as an all knowing savant eh?

I get very little back at theend of the year as well btw...

Christopher...

Contribute to a 401k or other tax deferred plan.

Sorry you don't like the tone. But if you're not using the numbers off your tax return, you're not gonna be accurate.

I did your calculation for my own paycheck, and it came out 10 percentage points higher it would when I use the numbers that actually matter off my tax return.

Previous discussion in this thread aside.

Tax board set up to discuss new changes has been really looking into the National Sales Tax.

Infact a new book just came out from Neal Boorz that really explains the nuts and bolts/whys and wherefores and even addresses common concerns.

Neal Boortz
The Fairtax ( I believe it's called)

Gonna go and pick it up myself. Just watched the quick interview on Hannity and Colmes with Sen. Linder and Neal Boortz.

Interesting stuff...

Fandros

RE: The 10% bracket and the 36% bracket...regarding withholding.

If you're int he 10% bracket, you remove your deductions, and pay 10% on the leftover.

If you're in the 20% bracket, you remove your deductions, pay 10% on all income in the 10% bracket, and then pay 20% on the remainer that's in the 20% section.

If you're in the 30% bracket, you remove your deductions, pay 10% on all income in the 10% bracket, 20% on income in the 20% bracket, and then 30% on whatever's leftover in the 30% bracket.

I took to deconstructing my withholding recently to see where my raise went. A painful process.

I'm sure it was 'Max. Give the book a read if your curious , would enjoy discussing it with anyone interested. It's a possible change in our future, I'd love to be better informed.

Fandros

Mir...

I took my last paycheck total Gross and added up my state and Federal. Then divided that total by my gross...

34.7 Tax outta my gross...Granted there was some significant overtime on that check ( 24 hours worth of it.../shudder)

Single man claiming only myself and making what I do without owning a home ( d...i...v...o...r...c...e) has no shelters or exemptions to speak of.

I'm not alone in this, and many folks simply don't understand why folks like me seek a change.

A change will come, unless the bleeding heart special interest liberals get back in charge. Then it'll be Pork barrel polka baby...

So tell me again what I'm seeing wrong here....

/looks for the plat to appear in his bank account from Mir ;P

Christopher...

God this sounds familiar 34.7% has a nasty way of hurting your pocket. However, all that is changing for me :D I got custody of one of my worthless siblings offspring. I'm not doing it for the deduction I intend to give this child a real life and stable home which is more than I can say for my sorryass brother but it will help....I'm hoping!

Actually got custody of my son since I started this thread. But that's beside the point. The current tax code is thousands of pages long....

Fandros

Yeah, I just breached $10,000 in taxes this year. I feel 'ya Fandros.

Anyone that's paying 30% in taxes needs to fire their accountant.

Anyone that's paying 30% in taxes needs to fire their accountant.There are those of us in the 30% bracket who still don't own our houses, and could probably file a 1040EZ.

Oh, sure, I file the long form, but if don't own a home, or have kids, you're pretty much stuck taking the standard deductions.

Itemize itemize itemize...... That's what we do. House, uniforms for work, Telephone service, babysitting. Hell if you bought a car this year you can deduct the taxable vlalue from it... all helps...

If you can get your employer to pay you on a 1099, your options are limitless. In most cases, it's actually beneficial for them, since then they don't have to pay withholding on you.

Sure, you don't set yourself up with social security or unemployment money, but if you're disciplined about things you should have a cushion that's more flexible than unemployment anyway and who the hell wants to sink money into the dying social security system when you can just invest it yourself.

I submit that being a 1099 worker isn't an option for most of the population; and there's a large number of "us" who don't own a house, and couldn't itemize if they wanted to.

We're stuck paying all of our taxes.

Obviously, I don't know about everywhere everyone works, but I've had the option at all of my jobs except for at a fast food job I had in high school. Employers love it, since it's a lot easier for them.

30%??? Wow you are getting screwed....i take mine to HR Block and they don't even cut any corners or anything, i don't itemize or anything like that and I pay in ~20% over the course of the year and get about $700 back. I dunno man, I make $42k a year no kids, no house, own my car. I think you are getting fooked.

Everytime I read a thread on tax law/code I think of that scene in The Day After Tomorow, where the the librarian and one of the kids are arguing over a particular writer, name escapes me, and the other kid says, "Hey there is a whole section on tax codes down here". I know what I would burn if in that situation and its starts with the tax code.

Continue on

Rev

Oh that reminds me, with my house I pay right at 25 % during the year and tend to get a couple hundred back each year, of course my wife also works which up until recently was a death blow if you filed taxes while married. its getting better now though.


Pali buy a house its all the tax break you need and get out of Arizona that state income tax will kill you.

Rev

30%??? Wow you are getting screwed....i take mine to HR Block and they don't even cut any corners or anything, i don't itemize or anything like that and I pay in ~20% over the course of the year and get about $700 back. I dunno man, I make $42k a year no kids, no house, own my car. I think you are getting fooked.

At 42k you are making considerably less than I make. I am in a different tax bracket and I have no kids to claim, no house (divorced), and very few deductions. I get raped on my taxes but this year that ends :D I filled out a new W4 recently when the custody became official and I see a house purchase on the horizon ;)

God this sounds familiar

House or not, divorced or not, you still have a $13k or $14k tax shelter available to you.

How is a national salex tax going to end up being non-regressive? Are low income people going to present a card that gets them out of paying the tax? Rebates won't work - that would mean those people have to front the money to the government for a year and then get a refund.

Are there any economies with national sales taxes that have GDP growth similar to the US? Or is our goal to slow growth and raise unemployment in order to be more like Europe?

which shelter is that?? I am alsways on the look out for more ways to keep my cash.

It pays $$$ to have alot of kids.

I'm pretty sure my daughter costs more to feed, clothe, educate, and parent than a standard deduction. Even in the support that I pay for her (I only have her weekends now - another story), I pay *much* more than a standard deduction.

I'm pretty sure my daughter costs more to feed, clothe, educate, and parent than a standard deduction. Even in the support that I pay for her (I only have her weekends now - another story), I pay *much* more than a standard deduction.

True but arn't you glade that money is going to your daughter rather than the goverments 1,000 trash cans?

which shelter is that??

401k.

It's called "The FairTax Book" by Neal Boortz. Info posted for Greystone.


Fandros