Interesting Article

Read it Here! (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23104260)

I was excited until I read:

He said clerics would remain important. "We need them for guidance, just as the late Imam Khomeini wanted. In the end, this is just a change in clothes," he added, referring to the overcoat and turban worn by clerics and the suits worn by younger politicians. "The newcomers are just as religious."

So they will just change the appearance of who is in charge, but it will still be people who rely on religion to guide the making of policy in Iran....

Well, I guess change has to start somewhere.

Well honestly it makes sense. Can you imagine Iran trying to raid the USA without a lot of clerics? If nothing else for battle rezzing and symbol buffs!

They might not need the clerics as much, but they'd surely fail without them.

I was excited until I read:



So they will just change the appearance of who is in charge, but it will still be people who rely on religion to guide the making of policy in Iran....

Well, I guess change has to start somewhere.

Just like I'd prefer our Presidents don't rely on religion to guide the policy of the US (/cough /cough Huckabee)

Well honestly it makes sense. Can you imagine Iran trying to raid the USA without a lot of clerics? If nothing else for battle rezzing and symbol buffs!

They might not need the clerics as much, but they'd surely fail without them.

I lol'd

I was excited until I read:



So they will just change the appearance of who is in charge, but it will still be people who rely on religion to guide the making of policy in Iran....

Well, I guess change has to start somewhere.

I don't see Iran shying away from Religion affecting government policies anytime soon. They are taking small steps in the right direction, but nothing groundbreaking really.

I would give it a good 30-40 years as the young become the old for the country to change course dramatically.

I do however find it ironic that there are issues here in America where our leaders religious views come into play, such as gay marriage, stem cell research, and abortion. Yet we easily forget the influence religion has on our own government.

Religious people running a government is not the problem. It is when the law is changed to follow religious beliefs, and hopefully as the young become the old, Iran will start to shift more towards a secular government which can use Islam as a guide for the good way to live ones life, but not the only way.

I do however find it ironic that there are issues here in America where our leaders religious views come into play, such as gay marriage, stem cell research, and abortion. Yet we easily forget the influence religion has on our own government. Yes, let's not forget how similar we are to Iran. Only we're not stoning and beheading people for being gay or having an abortion you stupid fuck.

Not yet we are'nt Akipt. I hold no illusions given enough power thats exactly where Dobson and his Ilk will head towards. Ive seen it up close and personal.

I see all these years of gnashing teeth and hand wringing about the Bushitler regime really did a number on your mental state as well.

Yes, let's not forget how similar we are to Iran. Only we're not stoning and beheading people for being gay or having an abortion you stupid fuck.

"Anger and insults are the common replacement for those with no proof of what they desperately want to believe."-Freud

It's currently illegal to do these things, but there is a constituency out there who favors death for gays (like former Alabama Judge Roy Moore), for those who perform abortions (like Senator Tom Coburn) and for those who have them (like Furtivus).

I see all these years of gnashing teeth and hand wringing about the Bushitler regime really did a number on your mental state as well.


No Asshole it comes from bieng there that morning as my friend cried looking at what was left of her business after some "good christian" drove a truck thru the front window. i guess spray painting "Die Satanist" and "whore" was'nt good enough for them. or maybe it was watching the police make jokes and snicker at the scene of a hate crime, knowing they would never put one bit of effort into finding the people responsible.
It also might be reading the qoutes in the paper from the good baptist who owned the barber shop in that strip mall who said to bad she wasnt standing at the counter when it happened and how the world would be better off if someone just put a bullet in her head.
Or maybe it was the time when her house was attacked and 3 windows were broken because of the rocks thrown thru them(one missing her 5 yo child by about a foot) and the cops arrested her husband on a bogus weapons charge.later dropped.
NO my friend I have stared into the ugly hate filled eyes of the evangelical movement and marked them as an enemy of true freedom long before Bush!

"Anger and insults are the common replacement for those with no proof of what they desperately want to believe."-FreudI think you're too lazy to find a more appropriate quote to stand on, or do you not believe Iran is stoning and imprisoning people 'just because' ?

Ironically, Freud would be one of Iran's first in line for a good stoning. Nice try.

And as for Thormir and velvet's juvenile extrapolations of taking a 'constituency' and making that some kind of judgement on what a 'Christian' nation would be .. There's a very active and vocal 'constituency' on the left that would like nothing more than to exterminate every human - all to cure the evils man does to mother earth.

It also might be reading the qoutes in the paper from the good baptist who owned the barber shop in that strip mall who said to bad she wasnt standing at the counter when it happened and how the world would be better off if someone just put a bullet in her head.Specifically, I've been waiting for the outrage at Bill Maher wishing death on one of our country's leaders. You know, the one with an audience of millions.

Velvet, those thing are horrible. However they are not representative of Christians as a whole.
Just like when a guy blows himself and other people up in the name of Allah, it is not representative of Muslims as a whole.

Weak-minded people will use religion to excuse the most horrible things. That's not religion's role.
Religion is supposed to help you do good things in your life, whether for yourself, or others.
The people that perpertrated the crimes against your friend, will find their just reward in the Afterlife (if there is one), just as the guys that blow themselves up will find the Heaven (if there is one) is not filled with 77 virgins for them.

There's a "Golden Rule" of Wicca that I tend to live my life by, and most other religions have a similar saying:
"And that it not hurt others, do as thou wilt."
Its a great way to live, but anything taken to an extreme, is a bad thing.

There are some people that read those words and think "Well if I take a razor to myself, I'm not hurting another person, so I can do that."
Different people interpert things differently. Don't blame the religions for the acts of the individuals.
If there were no religion, people would do horrible things in the name of Atheism, or Nationalism.

I think you're too lazy to find a more appropriate quote to stand on, or do you not believe Iran is stoning and imprisoning people 'just because' ?

Ironically, Freud would be one of Iran's first in line for a good stoning. Nice try.


And I think you are too immature to have a discussion without verbally bashing me for saying anything. My post still stands, I never compared America to Iran, that was you putting words in my mouth and finding another way to insult me.

Until you learn how to debate, Kindly go fuck yourself.

And as for Thormir and velvet's juvenile extrapolations of taking a 'constituency' and making that some kind of judgement on what a 'Christian' nation would be .. There's a very active and vocal 'constituency' on the left that would like nothing more than to exterminate every human - all to cure the evils man does to mother earth.Ah, akipt, always good for a laugh. You call someone else a stupid fuck, but that someone else and I are the ones being juvenile. Hilarious. Fortunately, we have over a millennia of history demonstrating what "Christian" nations are like, and it's not pretty, so no need to go there. I'm not sure what leftward constituency you're talking about, but please compare their influence to a (now former but very active) state Chief Justice or a sitting US Senator and their constituency.

And if you want outrage over Maher, hit Redstate or Freeperville. Saying "I have zero doubt that if Dick Cheney was not in power people wouldn't be dying needlessly tomorrow. If he did die, other people — more people would live. That's a fact." is hardly "wishing death" on someone. Hell, O'Reilly (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,257352,00.html) has more sense than you.

My post still stands, I never compared America to IranTell me how to make irony without a comparitive statement. I'm dying to know.

Fortunately, we have over a millennia of history demonstrating what "Christian" nations are like, and it's not pretty, so no need to go there.And we have eons (including the most deadly past century or two) of how much worse ungodly countries can be as well. Why even go down that road?

Yes, if we elected a majority of kook fringe people from either side of the political spectrum to control our government, we'd end up with something no one on this board would like.

Saying that if Judge Moore or whoever you're bitching about becomes elected, we'd end up with something like Iran is moronic. That's not going to happen.

Saying "I have zero doubt that if Dick Cheney was not in power people wouldn't be dying needlessly tomorrow. If he did die, other people — more people would live. That's a fact." is hardly "wishing death" on someone. He did actually wish Rush was dead instead of Ledger, but that's more of the same. If you think that passes as good dialogue for someone with millions of viewers, then I'm sad for you. Glad I could make you laugh at least. You need it.

Tell me how to make irony without a comparitive statement. I'm dying to know.


It's Ironic people complain about a Theocracy, when we move closer in that direction ourselves...

Has nothing to do with stonings and such. Grow the hell up man and stop lookin for a fight.

It's Ironic people complain about a Theocracy, when we move closer in that direction ourselves...So you did compare us to the Iranian theocracy? Why blather on wasting space saying you didn't?

So we're moving closer to a theocracy since we have political leaders who use their faith or religion to guide them when it comes to hot topics such as stem cell research and abortion. In order for us to be moving either toward or away from a theorcracy, I assume you have some basis to make this judgement?

So you did compare us to the Iranian theocracy? Why blather on wasting space saying you didn't?

So we're moving closer to a theocracy since we have political leaders who use their faith or religion to guide them when it comes to hot topics such as stem cell research and abortion. In order for us to be moving either toward or away from a theorcracy, I assume you have some basis to make this judgement?


Main Entry:the·oc·ra·cy http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cimg%20src=%22images/smilies/tongue.gif%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22%22%20titl e=%22Stick%20Out%20Tongue%22%20smilieid=%225%22%20 class=%22inlineimg%22%20/%3EopWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?theocr01.wav=theocracy%27%29)Pronunciatio n: \thē-ˈä-krə-sē\ Function:noun Inflected Form(s):plural the·oc·ra·ciesEtymology:Greek theokratia, from the- + -kratia -cracyDate:1622 1 : government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided 2 : a state governed by a theocracy

"I have opponents in this race who do not want to change the Constitution," Huckabee told a Michigan audience on Monday. "But I believe it's a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living god. And that's what we need to do -- to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards so it lines up with some contemporary view."-Mike Huckabee


"God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ...' And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God I'm gonna do it,"-George W Bush

“I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Savior, for whose Kingdom it stands, one Savior, crucified, risen, and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/i_pledge_allegiance_to_the_christian_flag-and_to/159349.html)” Dan Quayle (http://thinkexist.com/quotes/dan_quayle/)

I did not compare The US to Iran at all. I pointed out the fervent reaction to Iranian theocracy and how it overlooks the slow creep towards something similar in America.

The only thing standing in the way of our leaders doing anything even remotely close to a country like Iran is our constitution, and sadly enough, presidents like Bush already find ways around it for other issues. The bottom line is, that alot of what is done in America is about Religion.

You may think that Israel is our ally because they are our friends in the middle east, when in Reality it has alot to do with religion. Christian evangelicals like Huckabee believe that Israel must be safe until the time comes where they will all convert to Christianity.

We are not anything close to Iran at all, and I challenge you to show me where I said such a thing. As long as we stay vigilant and make sure our leaders do not abuse their power and bypass our constitution we are safe of such a government. Can we do such a thing without people like you standing in our way?

-edit
For the record I think the US is more a plutocracy then democracy.

For the record I think the US is more a plutocracy then democracy.

Now, that's not fair, you leave Mickey Mouse's dog out of this.

And we have eons (including the most deadly past century or two) of how much worse ungodly countries can be as well. Why even go down that road? You seem to want to. Of course, none of those nations were set up with "ungodliness" as a defining attribute. The state and its leadership were to be the focus of the peoples' "worship" instead of deities. Hell, just look at our "Christian" leader for a reminiscence about the past. War and torture? Seems like old times.
Yes, if we elected a majority of kook fringe people from either side of the political spectrum to control our government, we'd end up with something no one on this board would like. It's far more likely that we'll end up with someone in office who thinks planetary annhilation is a good idea because it will usher in the Second Coming than someone who wants humanity gone because we made Gaia mad. The irony is that both those elements loathe each other while hoping for a very similar chain of events.
He did actually wish Rush was dead instead of Ledger, but that's more of the same. If you think that passes as good dialogue for someone with millions of viewers, then I'm sad for you.Don't be. I didn't say it was good dialogue, only that he didn't wish death on Cheney. Hell, if Cheney were dead there'd be one less man shot in the face, and that's definitely a fact. It's also not wishing death on the VP.

Funny how you keep harping on Maher instead of the elected or appointed officials who actually make decisions for this nation, and which impact other nations. Don't be sad for me. Instead, look in the mirror and consider the dialogue of the leadership you adore, from "Go fuck yourself" to "Bring it on" and beyond. Dialogue that isn't just viewed by millions, but which impacts billions.

I dunno, I thought it was kinda funny when he told Leahy to go commit an unnatural act with himself...but the venue was all wrong.
The House floor isn't the place to be trading 4 lettered words, so Cheney loses style points there.

I'm not sure how you can say if he were dead, that you know for a fact 1 man less would be shot in the face.
There would have still been a war, regardless of who is in charge, and the man you know for a fact that wouldn't have been shot, could have died in just the same manner. Perhaps the venue would have been different, instead of Baghdad, it could have just as easily been Darfur.

I dunno, I thought it was kinda funny when he told Leahy to go commit an unnatural act with himself...but the venue was all wrong.
The House floor isn't the place to be trading 4 lettered words, so Cheney loses style points there.

I'm not sure how you can say if he were dead, that you know for a fact 1 man less would be shot in the face.
There would have still been a war, regardless of who is in charge, and the man you know for a fact that wouldn't have been shot, could have died in just the same manner. Perhaps the venue would have been different, instead of Baghdad, it could have just as easily been Darfur.

I think he meant the guy who went hunting with Cheney and got shot by Cheney :)

I dunno, I thought it was kinda funny when he told Leahy to go commit an unnatural act with himself...but the venue was all wrong.
The House floor isn't the place to be trading 4 lettered words, so Cheney loses style points there.

I'm not sure how you can say if he were dead, that you know for a fact 1 man less would be shot in the face.
There would have still been a war, regardless of who is in charge, and the man you know for a fact that wouldn't have been shot, could have died in just the same manner. Perhaps the venue would have been different, instead of Baghdad, it could have just as easily been Darfur.


What was really funny was when Cheney was touring the Katrina damage and the guy walking by told him to go f... himself.

Ack, I had forgotten about that birdshot incident.....

My Bad!

So you did compare us to the Iranian theocracy? Why blather on wasting space saying you didn't?

So we're moving closer to a theocracy since we have political leaders who use their faith or religion to guide them when it comes to hot topics such as stem cell research and abortion. In order for us to be moving either toward or away from a theorcracy, I assume you have some basis to make this judgement?


Why does faith in religion prevent advances in life saving and life improving technology?

How do these people know what God thinks? It can't be that they believe God and or Jesus wrote the bible, is it?

I know the bible say's that divorce is a sin but it really doesn't say homosexuality is a sin.

Using ones faith in religion to guide a nation is by definition a theocracy, so I will say that we have it already.

I have to agree with Maher on this, religion is evil.

I consider myself spiritual but definately not religious.

Why does faith in religion prevent advances in life saving and life improving technology?

How do these people know what God thinks? It can't be that they believe God and or Jesus wrote the bible, is it?

I know the bible say's that divorce is a sin but it really doesn't say homosexuality is a sin.

Using ones faith in religion to guide a nation is by definition a theocracy, so I will say that we have it already.

I have to agree with Maher on this, religion is evil.

I consider myself spiritual but definately not religious.

Man here in America you get a little of everything...

Republoplutodemotheoacracy

People use religion as an excuse for ignorance. Yes Velvet has had some horrid things happen by christians, and the media always reports on christians doing wrong. Muslims get no praise at all for any good they do, just the negative.

My church recently: (last 60 days)

Rebuilt the house of a poor family that burnt to the ground due to a wildfire.
Fed 300 Homeless and poor people at an event.
Fixed 21 roofs damaged in a recent series of bad t-storms.
Gave away free gas for 5 hours at a 7-11

all of that was to help our community, guess how much of it made the news.....only the gas. The reason it made the news was the traffic issue it caused, they barely mentioned the church involvment at all.

The media spins things too much, and people leech on to mass labels to deal with things.

Dont deny the fact that we are a hair away from a theocracy in the fact that a LARGE majority of the country are deity beleivers of some sort, and those beliefs dictate our actions. Most of our political leaders....find me 10 aethists.

The Pledge of Allegiance was revised to include the words "under God", because some in Congress wanted their faith to be recognized daily in our children's schools, at the start of each school day.

The courts have steadily been moving closer to allowing prayer in school again.

There is a push to enact legislation which would make the "Christian" definition of marriage between a man and woman the standard.

Huckabee wants to revise the Constitution to reflect the word of "the living God".

What all of the above have in common is they promote Christianity and ignore, or at the least disrespect, the rights of Jews, Sikhs, Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, followers of the FSM, etc. We founded this country with ideals of freedom of religion, and wrote into our Constitution the idea of the separation of Church and State; now, we are looking at a candidate for President who wants to disenfranchise those Americans who do not practice the same religion as his.

The more we accept these intrusions of religion into our politics and the governing of the country, the closer we are getting to this country's next civil war.

I know the bible say's that divorce is a sin but it really doesn't say homosexuality is a sin.
Actually, the Old Testament does refer to men laying with other men as abominations. Romans 1:18-32 has Paul ranting about men and women with unnatural lusts doing things with one another (if your Bible has a centerfold like mine, you can see what he means). They all do terrible things and are terrible people -- even disobeying their parents! -- and "deserve death."

It even goes one better on the divorce angle. Luke 16:18 tells us that if you divorce and marry another, you're an adulterer; a man who marries a divorced woman is likewise an adulterer. So, show of hands on who's going to Hell!

Yes, if we elected a majority of kook fringe people from either side of the political spectrum to control our government, we'd end up with something no one on this board would like.

Actually agree with you on that! PETA, ELF and others are just as bad for the health of this country.

But the big differance is the ultra left has not declared war on the sin of secularism. nor have they vowed to push evangelicls into positions of power in local,state and federal legislative and judicial bodies to achieve thier goals. kansas school board ring a bell?
Both Bob Jones and Liberty university were started with sole purpose of training an army of evangelicaly commited lawyers. they plan to take power from the inside. legally. thats why the policies and plans of a politician matter less to them in a presidential candidate than wether or not the candidate will nominate a supreme court justice that meets thier standards.
I've watched this closely over the years and these people are dangerous! their angry over the fact that despite all the preaching, the majority in the US remain secular minded, or even worse "liberalized christians"

Actually, the Old Testament does refer to men laying with other men as abominations. Romans 1:18-32 has Paul ranting about men and women with unnatural lusts doing things with one another (if your Bible has a centerfold like mine, you can see what he means). They all do terrible things and are terrible people -- even disobeying their parents! -- and "deserve death."



The old testament is only the convenient christian bible, it's the one referred to if you want to justify your hate for a person. Oh yeah, it also basically says slavery is a good thing, and don't forget to burn that Ox at the altar when you get home from work..

The old testament is only the convenient christian bible, it's the one referred to if you want to justify your hate for a person. Oh yeah, it also basically says slavery is a good thing, and don't forget to burn that Ox at the altar when you get home from work..It's convenient or inconvenient depending on the argument being presented, but you're right that it's regularly trotted out only for certain purposes like gay smiting, as opposed to expressing wrath at shellfish or people who wear two types of cloth. Even so, Romans is New Testament so quotable whatever the terms.

I thought Judiasm only used the Old Testament, as well....
All modern Christians tend to follow the New Testament, which says basically that everything changed once Jesus was born, and died, and that the Old Testament was old news....

The way I look at things is the way Jesus put it (or "Jesus" if you doubt he existed) ... Honor God and love your neighbors. The fact is we'll never live up to God's standards of forgiving anyone asking for forgiveness, but the death penalty is far far far away from loving your neighbor. Invading Iraq was too, even one innocent casulty is still murder ... In some cases murder is justified I guess, but why that is justifyable but abortion isn't is just one of the disconnects from the true teachings. People are just too damn nieve or stupid and they just seem to take the Bible without the context (being written by failable man many, many years ago for one) and without thinking for themselves and that is the real shame. Religion can be a powerful tool for self betterment and betterment for all of mankind, yet far too often it is used to exploit and further personal agendas of those entrusted with our leadership.

A couple years back, I was watching something and Hillary was answering a question about abortion, which I think sums it up for a lot of us. She was saying something to the effect that it is important that abortion remains a viable option, but it is equally important that we do a better job of educatiing and providing birth control so that there will be far fewer who are in a position to need that option.

I started liking her a little bit more at that point.

A couple years back, I was watching something and Hillary was answering a question about abortion, which I think sums it up for a lot of us. She was saying something to the effect that it is important that abortion remains a viable option, but it is equally important that we do a better job of educatiing and providing birth control so that there will be far fewer who are in a position to need that option.

I started liking her a little bit more at that point.

And then did you wake up and realize what a nightmare you just had and spend hours vomiting uncontrollably?

Cause yea... thats what would have happened to me.

And then did you wake up and realize what a nightmare you just had and spend hours vomiting uncontrollably?

Cause yea... thats what would have happened to me.

Thanks for doing such an excellent job of crystallizing the manner in which the "average citizen" perpetuates the polarization we blame on politicians.

I thought Judiasm only used the Old Testament, as well....
All modern Christians tend to follow the New Testament, which says basically that everything changed once Jesus was born, and died, and that the Old Testament was old news....

It is supposed to be that way, unless of course you need a specific group to hate so you can pass your own agenda in the halls of congress.

Religion can be a powerful tool for self betterment and betterment for all of mankind, yet far too often it is used to exploit and further personal agendas of those entrusted with our leadership.

Grats Kel on bieng one of the few who seem to get it!