http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1886856,00.html

The six soldiers, whose identity is being kept confidential, made their claims in an address last month to cadets of the Yitzhak Rabin military academy, of which they are graduates. Among other claims, the soldiers alleged that an Israeli sniper had shot a woman and her two children who walked in the wrong direction after being ordered out of their home by Israeli troops. In a second incident, a sniper supposedly killed an unarmed elderly woman who posed no apparent threat to Israeli troops. And the soldiers ascribed these incidents to overly permissive rules of engagement.

http://j.photos.cx/gaza_shoe_0122-d7a.jpg
A child's shoe in a classroom at the UN school that was hit by an Israeli strike on January 17, 2009.

After the anonymous soldiers' testimony was splashed across the media
in Israel and abroad, the military police on Thursday said it would
investigate the alleged killings. Their allegations renewed an ongoing
debate between Israelis who defend the Gaza assault and those who say
it failed to accomplish its goal of crippling Hamas, but stained
Israel's reputation. On Friday, an Israeli Defense Forces spokesman
dismissed claims of the gunning down of the mother and her two children
as "heresay", but said that the account of the elderly woman's death
was still being probed. But those were just two of the incidents alleged by the six soldiers.


Human rights investigators suggest that what the soldiers' allegations
and eyewitness accounts from Gaza residents suggest is that, in an
effort to maximize the safety of their own soldiers entering Gaza,
Israeli commanders may have let their ethical standards slide. Retired
general and former security chief Ami Ayalon concurs. The Gaza
operation, says Ayalon, "compromised the I.D.F.'s ethos, which was once
built on ethics, sacrifice. And today, after the Gaza offensive, it is based on force alone."


Video of Gaza destruction (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7836869.stm)


Mr Ging, UN posted:

Unrwa was keen to reopen its schools, Mr Ging said, where 50,000 people were sheltering. Tens of thousands have been made homeless by the bombardment.

Big questions remain, our correspondent says, such as who will police Gaza's southern border with Egypt and how much power Hamas still has.

http://img.waffleimages.com/1928de43ade69c7e6b116f0bfb4396ee4d439491/whoops.JPG

We have no knowledge of such an incident (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1874850,00.html)

Abed Rabu says his daughter Suwad died in Gaza on Jan. 7, the day Israeli tanks churned across the strawberry fields and knocked their way into a little park about 20 yards (18 m) from the family home. Residents of Jebel al-Kashif recall being warned by the Israelis through loudspeakers to evacuate their homes. "There was no fighting, so we weren't too worried when the Israelis told us to leave," Abed Rabu recalls. "I told my girls, 'Don't be scared. We've done nothing to the Israelis, so they won't hurt us.'"

The patriarch says he herded his wife, mother and three young daughters, Amal, 2; Samar, 4; and Suwad to the door and gave the children a white flag to wave. "Two Israeli soldiers were beside their tank, eating chocolate and potato chips," he recounts, waving empty wrappers bearing Hebrew writing that he found later in the debris. "It was like a picnic for them."

According to Abed Rabu, a third Israeli soldier then popped out of the tank with an M-16 and fired a single shot. "I didn't understand what happened," says Abed Rabu. "I thought he was firing in the air, and then I looked down and saw my 2-year-old daughter lying there with her insides spilling out.

"I started screaming, 'Why are you doing this?' And then the soldier shot my two other girls. My wife fainted. And when my mother tried to drag Suwad inside the house, the soldier shot my mother in the chest, her shoulder and her leg."

After the shootings, Abed Rabu says, he dragged his wounded children and mother into the doorway and shouted for help. "I could see an ambulance nearby," he says. The ambulance driver, Samiyeh al-Sheikh, who lives close by, said he heard shots and screams coming from Abed Rabu's house. "But when I tried to go toward them, the Israeli soldiers beat me up. Then, with a bulldozer, the soldiers backed the ambulance against my house and crushed it like sand." The twisted wreckage of the ambulance, partly buried under a house, was visible when reporters arrived several days later.

Inside his house, Abed Rabu moved his injured family under the staircase for protection. Frantic, he began phoning the Red Crescent, friends with cars, anyone who might help him reach a hospital. His 2-year-old daughter, shot in the stomach, was demanding water. "I wet her lips with my finger. It was all I could do," says Kauthar, the mother.

For two hours, Abed Rabu says, he was unable to summon help or move from the house. He says he pleaded with the soldiers to let him leave with his injured family, but they refused. Finally, his aged father picked up Samar in his arms and stood in the doorway. He said, "I'm willing to risk my life to take her to the hospital." This time, Abed Rabu says, the soldiers allowed them out. He and nine family members followed, carrying the two other wounded children and their grandmother. "I couldn't tell if Suwad and Amal were still breathing, but there was still a chance they might be alive," says Abed Rabu. "As we walked up the road, the soldiers shot at the dirt around our feet." Abed Rabu says he carried his daughters more than a mile. By the time they reached the hospital, the girls were dead.

Abed Rabu sits alone beside his blasted home. "I don't understand. I'm not Hamas. My girls weren't Hamas. Why did they do this to us?" he asks. In a reply to TIME's query, the military press office said, "The Israel Defense Forces is an ethical army and ... has no knowledge of such an incident."

Surely no one would glorify it (http://story.albuquerqueexpress.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/c08dd24cec417021/id/480281/cs/1/)

http://j.photos.cx/15245919-363.jpg

http://j.photos.cx/15245918-10f.jpg

The first half reflects upon the beginning of the OP:

"The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders."

According to the squad leader: "The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away. In any case, what happened is that in the end he killed them.

"I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it .... The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way," he said.

Haaretz reported another squad leader from the same brigade told of an incident where the company commander ordered that an elderly Palestinian woman be shot and killed; she was walking on a road about 100 meters from a house the company had commandeered.

...

The army was under the spotlight further on Friday with another Haaretz report disclosing how soldiers are having slogans and images depicting Palestinians in an unfavorable light on t-shirts.

The Adiv fabric-printing shop in south Tel Aviv says it handles a constant stream of customers, many of them soldiers in uniform, who come to order custom clothing featuring their unit's insignia, usually accompanied by a slogan and drawing of their choosing.

Dead babies, mothers weeping on their children's graves, a gun aimed at a child and bombed-out mosques - these are a few examples of the images Israeli army soldiers design these days to print on shirts they order to mark the end of training, or of field duty, said the Haretz report. The slogans accompanying the drawings are not exactly anemic either: A T-shirt for infantry snipers bears the inscription "Better use Durex," next to a picture of a dead Palestinian baby, with his weeping mother and a teddy bear beside him. A sharpshooter's T-shirt from the Givati Brigade's Shaked battalion shows a pregnant Palestinian woman with a bull's-eye superimposed on her belly, with the slogan, in English, "1 shot, 2 kills." A "graduation" shirt for those who have completed another snipers course depicts a Palestinian baby, who grows into a combative boy and then an armed adult, with the inscription, "No matter how it begins, we'll put an end to it."

There are also plenty of shirts with blatant sexual messages, says the report. For example, the Lavi battalion produced a shirt featuring a drawing of a soldier next to a young woman with bruises, and the slogan, "Bet you got raped!" A few of the images underscore actions whose existence the army officially denies - such as "confirming the kill" (shooting a bullet into an enemy victim's head from close range, to ensure he is dead), or harming religious sites, or female or child non-combatants.

In many cases, the content is submitted for approval to one of the unit's commanders. The latter, however, do not always have control over what gets printed, because the artwork is a private initiative of soldiers that they never hear about. Drawings or slogans previously banned in certain units have been approved for distribution elsewhere. For example, shirts declaring, "We won't chill 'til we confirm the kill" were banned in the past (the army claims that the practice doesn't exist), yet the Haruv battalion printed some last year.

The slogan "Let every Arab mother know that her son's fate is in my hands!" had previously been banned for use on another infantry unit's shirt. A Givati soldier said this week, however, that at the end of last year, his platoon printed up dozens of shirts, fleece jackets and pants bearing this slogan.

"It has a drawing depicting a soldier as the Angel of Death, next to a gun and an Arab town," he explains. "The text was very powerful."

Does the design go to the commanders for approval?

The Givati soldier explaind, "Usually the shirts undergo a selection process by some officer, but in this case, they were approved at the level of platoon sergeant. We ordered shirts for 30 soldiers and they were really into it, and everyone wanted several items and paid NIS 200 on average."

Original Sources: Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072466.html), The AP (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD97204S80), Yahoo (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090321/wl_time/08599188685600)

It's been a day since the new news has come out by soldier testimonies with regards to the treatment of civilians in Gaza during the Israeli Offensive and the T-shirts, and the score so far is 1,434 Palestinians dead(960 confirmed civilians) and about 10 Israeli soldiers(for reference, 13 civilians were killed due to Quassam rockets since they began in 2001).

Is this the majority mindset of soldiers in Israel? What good is your squad leader when he agrees Palestinians are all terrorists? What good does it do when the soldier who blows the whistle is in the major minority?

Is this because of religion? God gave this land to Israel, and many believe the gentiles should either leave or be killed, and therefore it justifies this kind of casual genocide; that Palestinians are lesser human beings. What about the Palestinian side? Hamas is exceptionally lovely for continuing the rocket attacks, but at the same time, for decades, Israel has been encroaching on the West Bank piece by piece, and the West Bank and Gaza are both part of Palestine. Can Hamas be blamed for the rocket attacks if Israel continues to take away land from one of the most densely populated regions in the world?

Yes it's the bad side of religion.

While I think the above mentioned acts are horrible and reprehensible, (the T-shirts, although disgusting, not so much because that sort of thing happens in one form or another in lots of military units, including ours, and it's *usually* understood that they're meant to be tongue in cheek bravado), at least it is *Israeli* soldiers that are blowing the whistle, and at least some of the acts are being officially investigated. In other words, there are some shreds of accountability, rationality and trappings of a functioning government involved in and responding to the matter, and functioning, hm, pride in civilization on the part of the soldiers and the administration who allowed them to speak about this openly at an address to the military academy. How many of the nations in the area do you think that would be the case for? Do you think, for example, a group of Iranian soldiers would have been allowed to speak up at their military academy and decry its own practices? 'Rules of engagement' implies that there *are* rules, something that hasn't appeared to exist as far as Hamas is concerned, for that matter...

Granted, Israel's military, or at least its hardliners, may not care much about the fate of Palestinian civilians - but Israel's military, as well as the nation itself, cares a great deal about its reputation for professionalism as well as their international reputation as far as being part of the 'civilization' club goes. Let's hope that this particular act of whistleblowing ends up acting much as our own Abu Ghraib scandal did in terms bringing this sort of brutality to light to the general population and shaming the government into accountability and the military into reform...

Regards,
Nydia

Brilliant post, as usual Nydia.

While I think the above mentioned acts are horrible and reprehensible, (the T-shirts, although disgusting, not so much because that sort of thing happens in one form or another in lots of military units, including ours, and it's *usually* understood that they're meant to be tongue in cheek bravado), at least it is *Israeli* soldiers that are blowing the whistle, and at least some of the acts are being officially investigated. In other words, there are some shreds of accountability, rationality and trappings of a functioning government involved in and responding to the matter, and functioning, hm, pride in civilization on the part of the soldiers and the administration who allowed them to speak about this openly at an address to the military academy. How many of the nations in the area do you think that would be the case for? Do you think, for example, a group of Iranian soldiers would have been allowed to speak up at their military academy and decry its own practices? 'Rules of engagement' implies that there *are* rules, something that hasn't appeared to exist as far as Hamas is concerned, for that matter...

Granted, Israel's military, or at least its hardliners, may not care much about the fate of Palestinian civilians - but Israel's military, as well as the nation itself, cares a great deal about its reputation for professionalism as well as their international reputation as far as being part of the 'civilization' club goes. Let's hope that this particular act of whistleblowing ends up acting much as our own Abu Ghraib scandal did in terms bringing this sort of brutality to light to the general population and shaming the government into accountability and the military into reform...

Regards,
Nydia

but this is akin to saying that israel is great for calling the wall they are building illegal, while ignoring that they keep on building the damn thing. i sincerely doubt this will change anything, just like past scandals havent caused any real change in their modus operandi (just look at the lebanon war and the recent gaza conflict, so many comparisons).

Let me be clear - I'm not saying that Israel is 'great' for what they are doing. What I *am* saying is that's a sign of health of a functioning modern civilization that these soldiers spoke their conscience about was going on, and were allowed to do so publicly and the government is investigating some of the charges - something, you can be assured, that would *not* happen in, say, Russia, China, or any of the countries surrounding Israel with the possible exception of Egypt.

Whether anything 'happens' or not (and whether or not one supports building the wall, it doesn't belong in the same category as killing civilians in cold blood) depends on the degree of public outcry, (and granted, I think the odds were better had Tzipi Livni managed to form a government than Bibi Netanyahu and his cronies), but the fact that these reports came from the Israelis themselves should be recognized as a step in the right direction, at least.

Regards,
Nydia

She's saying that everyone does this kind of thing - but at least Israel has modern, political accountability and thus a way to detect and change such actions, as opposed to many an Arab or Communist state.

but this is akin to saying that israel is great for calling the wall they are building illegal, while ignoring that they keep on building the damn thing.

No it isn't.

- but at least Israel has modern, political accountability and thus a way to detect and change such actions, as opposed to many an Arab or Communist state.

True. To far how a degree such a practice is acceptable is a topic for another debate.

Influences on RoA, such as the Geneva Convention, are not universal, global standards. Very few military organizations actually have such measures in place, due to the fact that the value of a human life in general is not globally standardized. What is irrehensible to one nations civilian population could be par for the course in others. That is why the military typically tends to be professionally removed from politics in general in terms of many day to to operations because it injects too much doubt into a line of work that requires steadfast and decisive decision making. Ultimately, any military is a tool of politics, but the generals in the field and the boots on the ground do not want doubt. Otherwise they are in the wrong line of work, because the line they walk between being a soldier and a murderer is tenuous at best and they do not need the waters further muddied by foreign opinion.

As far as the shirts, well some aspects of military culture are completely tasteless in the eyes of the general public. that is something for chains of command to assign discipline to, and not the public. This could have been the actions of individuals who utilized the ease of ordering online or at a local t-shirt shop. If a military chain of command used governement funds to produce these and distribute them in the national language, than that is truely despicable. Given that one shirt is in English, and not Hebrew, makes this suspect and points to the actions of an individual.

In the end, once again, this is a case of public disgust trying to enforce morality on warfare, which is an oxymoron at best.

She's saying that everyone does this kind of thing - but at least Israel has modern, political accountability and thus a way to detect and change such actions, as opposed to many an Arab or Communist state.

and my point is that things exactly like this has been detected before in the IDF, and nothing was changed. im all for detecting them, but there has to be actual action before i register a pulse.

edit: a signal that this isnt going to change anything is how the IDF summarily denied knowing anything about anything.

Whatever the details of the individual case, modern political accountability nonetheless is an institution which prevents far more evil in the IDF than I think you're accusing it of right now.

It is indeed very easy to highlight the naughty stuff which, by the article above, would appear to be the minority ethos of military thinking in this case.

Keep making excuses for them... Goddamn, no wonder they do whatever they want.

They do this shit EVERY time they partake in military action. They use Palestinians as Human shields, which I have shown evidence of before, and they kill innocents without blinking and then deny it later.

Fuck Israel, and Fuck people who make excuses for the killing of Mass amounts of civilians.

lol this from the fucknuts who relieve Hamas of any blame for rockets being fired into Israel and killing civilians.

Fucking racist bastards.

In the Israeli military offensive, 1,434 Palestinians, including 960 civilians, were killed, according to the Palestinian Human Rights Center in Gaza. Three Israeli civilians were killed in the course of the same operation, and 10 soldiers, four of them by friendly fire.

... Seriously?

lol this from the fucknuts who relieve Hamas of any blame for rockets being fired into Israel and killing civilians.

Fucking racist bastards.

Once again your a retard...

I expect nothing less than sheer stupidity from you Jedd.

Thanks for proving me right once again you racist prick.

I'm confused with the accusations of racism?

The numbers regarding this 'conflict' speak for themselves...

The Palestinians suffered civilian casualties at a level THREE HUNDRED AND TWENTY TIMES (320x) higher than Israel.

I don't give a fuck if you're Israeli, Palestinian, American, Blue, Green, whatever the fuck. This is an egregious violation of human rights.

These innocents are no different than us. They may have funny sounding names, but most of them are just trying to live their lives. We are so fortunate that we do not have to worry about someone coming into our homes and murdering our families.

... Seriously?

well, depending on if you classify police officers as civilians or not (which you should, ffs)...

GAZA, March 12 (Reuters) -- Israel's 22-day offensive in the Hamas-ruled
Gaza Strip killed 1,434 people, including 960 civilians, 239 police
officers and 235 fighters, a Palestinian human rights group said on
Thursday.

235 or 16% of 1434 people, were the actual designated targets, 1199, or ~84%, were 'collateral damage', GG.

I'm confused with the accusations of racism?

The numbers regarding this 'conflict' speak for themselves...

The Palestinians suffered civilian casualties at a level THREE HUNDRED AND TWENTY TIMES (320x) higher than Israel.

I don't give a fuck if you're Israeli, Palestinian, American, Blue, Green, whatever the fuck. This is an egregious violation of human rights.

These innocents are no different than us. They may have funny sounding names, but most of them are just trying to live their lives. We are so fortunate that we do not have to worry about someone coming into our homes and murdering our families.

you seriously think fandros has some basis for his insults? really?

I expect nothing less than sheer stupidity from you Jedd.

Thanks for proving me right once again you racist prick.

You are a fucking retard, go get your head checked. Racist?

Typical Israeli ploy, call anyone who thinks your wrong a racist.

Are you Israeli?

Seriously, just because you 3 racist stooges have joined up to form the League of Innane Evildoers Society doesn't give you and yours any form of reality.

Just keep piling on, noone here believes you 3 will post anything other than;

omg Israeli are the evil...

Tools one and all, manipulating time frames and stats and hell reality to suit your needs.

None of you have a thing to offer but hate, run with it.

You are fucking insane...

Seriously, Godwin this shit and lets get it over with. People point out that it's ridiculous to have such high of a number of civilian casualties, and you start screaming racism...

I mean really, this is pathetic even for you.

Manipulating time frames and stats... Haha.

I just posted you a fucking article from Time. It says that Palestinians are being killed at a rate of 320 times that of Israeli civilians.

So you have 2 options:

A) You can decide you don't believe this is true. If so, then please, for fuck's sake, provide some counter-evidence.

B) You believe it's true, but somehow, in your fucked up head, you think that this is somehow justified.


I'm seriously flabbergasted at your stupidity right now. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Seriously, just because you 3 racist stooges have joined up to form the League of Innane Evildoers Society doesn't give you and yours any form of reality.

Just keep piling on, noone here believes you 3 will post anything other than;

omg Israeli are the evil...

Tools one and all, manipulating time frames and stats and hell reality to suit your needs.

None of you have a thing to offer but hate, run with it.

you have gone beyond the motherfucking pale, you inbred retard.

Seriously, just because you 3 racist stooges have joined up to form the League of Innane Evildoers Society doesn't give you and yours any form of reality.

Just keep piling on, noone here believes you 3 will post anything other than;

omg Israeli are the evil...

Tools one and all, manipulating time frames and stats and hell reality to suit your needs.

None of you have a thing to offer but hate, run with it.

You are the racist one... It blinds you so much that you don't realize you are advocating mass murder of innocent people just cause they are brown and your afraid of them.

This is for you Fandros, since you love this shit...



Associated Press

UN report says Israel used boy as human shield


Israeli soldiers used an 11-year-old Palestinian boy as a human shield during the war against Hamas in the Gaza Strip (http://topics.forbes.com/Gaza%20Strip), U.N. human rights experts said Monday.


The Israeli Defense force ordered the boy to walk in front of soldiers being fired on in the Gaza neighborhood of Tel al-Hawa and enter buildings before them, said the U.N. secretary-general's envoy for protecting children in armed conflict.


The boy also was told to open the bags of Palestinians - presumably to protect the soldiers from possible explosives - before being released at the entrance to a hospital, Radhika Coomaraswamy said.
She said the Jan. 15 incident, after Israeli tanks had rolled into the neighborhood and during "intense operations," was a violation of Israeli and international law.


It was included in a 43-page report published Monday, and was just one of many verified human rights atrocities during the three-week war between Israel and Hamas that ended Jan. 18, she said.


Coomaraswamy accused Israeli soldiers of shooting Palestinian children, bulldozing a home with a woman and child still inside, and shelling a building they had ordered civilians into a day earlier.


"Violations were reported on a daily basis, too numerous to list," said Coomaraswamy, who visited Gaza and Israel for five days in February.


http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/03/23/ap6200592.html


Twisted facts and time lines?

So does the 'autofoam' loop just bypass the brain completely, guys? I honestly have no idea why you are screaming at each other except for the rabid pleasure of doing so.

Israel committed atrocities during the Gaza offensive; atrocities of the type, it is sad to say, have occured to some degree during almost every military engagement ever where civilians were in the line of fire (and if you want to see much, much worse, just look south to Africa or to the Balkans conflict of the 1990s, not that that excuses anything). The Gaza abuses have been documented, the UN has issued a statement about it, and Israel's *own* armed forces aren't denying it entirely and are conducting investigations. The fact that Israel did 'bad' things doesn't negate the fact that Israeli soldiers speaking out about their experiences and demanding reform is a 'good' thing - as we've already hashed out ad infinitum, neither party is 'all-good' (innocent) or 'all bad' (guilty), except, perhaps, in the eyes of hate-blinded zealots on either side.

And in response to Jedd's broken 'it's because you hate teh scary brown people!' record mantra: I can't speak for Fandros, although I expect his views aren't too different in this regard, but last I checked, the attributes of civilization weren't tied to skin color, and I don't give a hoot what a person's ethnic or cultural background is - but one of the most problematic issues associated with the Israeli/Hamas conflict is that one of these two entities is, at least nominally, a nation of laws with an actual place the buck stops, capable of passing binding legislation, and which is beholden to the will of its citizens, and the other... isn't, uses its *own* civilians as human shields, and can't even acknowledge the existence of the nation invading its territory for the sake of peace negotiations. Again, that doesn't excuse *any* excessive force that Israel has engaged in against civilians in this conflict, but it does add into why many have a difficult time shaking the impression of Hamas (and thus the poor Palestinian people held hostage to them) as a bunch of extremist savages. I realize I've probably added pointless fuel to the fire here by bringing up the last but I'm sick of the 'omg, brown people are being oppressed!' racism charge that Jedd seems awfully eager to levy (and I don't understand why Fandros is using it at all), when race isn't a major issue here - ideology and 'rules of engagement' (on both sides) are.

Regards,
Nydia

'Once again your a retard...'

- You gotta love it.

So does the 'autofoam' loop just bypass the brain completely, guys? I honestly have no idea why you are screaming at each other except for the rabid pleasure of doing so.

Israel committed atrocities during the Gaza offensive; atrocities of the type, it is sad to say, have occured to some degree during almost every military engagement ever where civilians were in the line of fire (and if you want to see much, much worse, just look south to Africa or to the Balkans conflict of the 1990s, not that that excuses anything). The Gaza abuses have been documented, the UN has issued a statement about it, and Israel's *own* armed forces aren't denying it entirely and are conducting investigations. The fact that Israel did 'bad' things doesn't negate the fact that Israeli soldiers speaking out about their experiences and demanding reform is a 'good' thing - as we've already hashed out ad infinitum, neither party is 'all-good' (innocent) or 'all bad' (guilty), except, perhaps, in the eyes of hate-blinded zealots on either side.

And in response to Jedd's broken 'it's because you hate teh scary brown people!' record mantra: I can't speak for Fandros, although I expect his views aren't too different in this regard, but last I checked, the attributes of civilization weren't tied to skin color, and I don't give a hoot what a person's ethnic or cultural background is - but one of the most problematic issues associated with the Israeli/Hamas conflict is that one of these two entities is, at least nominally, a nation of laws with an actual place the buck stops, capable of passing binding legislation, and which is beholden to the will of its citizens, and the other... isn't, uses its *own* civilians as human shields, and can't even acknowledge the existence of the nation invading its territory for the sake of peace negotiations. Again, that doesn't excuse *any* excessive force that Israel has engaged in against civilians in this conflict, but it does add into why many have a difficult time shaking the impression of Hamas (and thus the poor Palestinian people held hostage to them) as a bunch of extremist savages. I realize I've probably added pointless fuel to the fire here by bringing up the last but I'm sick of the 'omg, brown people are being oppressed!' racism charge that Jedd seems awfully eager to levy, when race isn't a major issue here - ideology and 'rules of engagement' (on both sides) are.

Regards,
Nydia

did you read the thread? who called who a racist?

im not going to rehash how hamas stated they would implicitly recognize israel, or how israel has used palestinians as human shields (seriously, its now seen as better to not use your own citizens? wtf?) if you want to inform yourself on the issues, go read up on them.
but the fact remains, saying israel is a nation of laws sounds all fine and dandy...right up until the time you realize they dont even follow them. just as an example, israels supreme court has declared many of its actions illegal (settlements, the wall) and ordered them to be stopped, but they keep on doing it anyway. what does this tell you? id like to believe israel is a shining beacon of democracy in a region filled with dictatorships, but it just isnt so.

Dear Wiggo:

I edited my post while you were typing out your reply, it appears - and I freely admit to being blinded by all the flying bile and it just kind of disappearing in a white noise haze. I mentioned Jedd because it's not by any means the first time he's used that specific language 'it's because they're brown!' which is clearly a nonsequitur in this case.

Regarding 'informing myself', I don't have rose colored glasses on with regard to Israel's factionalism and corruption - and one of the things one needs to understand about Israel is just how great the divide is between left and right with regard to its effects on policy - when the government changes, they tack back in the opposite direction - conciliatory, then hardline. Unfortunately, Hamas, such as they are as a political entity, didn't do themselves any favors by refusing to negotiate with the more moderate Peres/Olmert government while they had the chance.

I'm not optimistic that things are going to get 'better' with regard to transparency or the peace process under Netanyahu 2.0 (seeing that he is very much a 'hawk'), although they will likely be consistent in tone. I think that the fact that Bibi's such a known quantity may somewhat ironically make negotiations more straightforward with regard to Gaza and with regard to the atrocities themselves, the international community needs to hold Israel accountable, by sanction or trial, because Israel *does* care about, if little else, its support by the West, particularly the US.

The US doesn't have a whole lot of moral authority in the world right now (with regard to how it has treated its own whistleblowers, either) but I think aggressive condemnation of the atrocities by the Obama administration and support for a full investigation would go a long way. As far as who is going to enforce the Egypt/Gaza border, I expect that to get thornier now that Mister Hardliner is back in the driver's seat...

Regards,
Nydia

Dear Wiggo:

I edited my post while you were typing out your reply, it appears - and I freely admit to being blinded by all the flying bile and it just kind of disappearing in a white noise haze. I mentioned Jedd because it's not by any means the first time he's used that specific language 'it's because they're brown!' which is clearly a nonsequitur in this case.

Regarding 'informing myself', I don't have rose colored glasses on with regard to Israel's factionalism and corruption - and one of the things one needs to understand about Israel is just how great the divide is between left and right with regard to its effects on policy - when the government changes, they tack back in the opposite direction - conciliatory, then hardline. Unfortunately, Hamas, such as they are as a political entity, didn't do themselves any favors by refusing to negotiate with the more moderate Peres/Olmert government while they had the chance.

I'm not optimistic that things are going to get 'better' with regard to transparency or the peace process under Netanyahu 2.0 (seeing that he is very much a 'hawk'), although they will likely be consistent in tone. I think that the fact that Bibi's such a known quantity may somewhat ironically make negotiations more straightforward with regard to Gaza and with regard to the atrocities themselves, the international community needs to hold Israel accountable, by sanction or trial, because Israel *does* care about, if little else, its support by the West, particularly the US.

The US doesn't have a whole lot of moral authority in the world right now (with regard to how it has treated its own whistleblowers, either) but I think aggressive condemnation of the atrocities by the Obama administration and support for a full investigation would go a long way. As far as who is going to enforce the Egypt/Gaza border, I expect that to get thornier now that Mister Hardliner is back in the driver's seat...

Regards,
Nydia

the bolded part is patently false, this is what i meant when i said inform yourself.

what you dont seem to know is that the left in israel is extremely marginalized in so far as the last couple of governments were either 1. hawks, or 2. ultra-hawks. the only time olmert appeared in any way conciliatory was when he was already 99% certain to be forced to resign, and then he said what any politician in israel who wants to recieve more than 1 vote can never say: there will never be peace without serious concessions from israel; including jerusalem (with regards to palestine) and the golan heights (with regards to syria).

other than that, what id like to note is that, if i dont remember completely wrong, one of the demands the batshit rightwing party, which i forgot the name of, had before forming a coalation with likud was: no negotiations, period. now, im sure there will be some backdoor talks going on...but it doesnt exactly bode well for any development.

I have no quarrel with the arguments being made that Israel committed some serious bullshit acts, and I do believe they will suffer some consequences for that, whether we ever are made aware of them or not. The manner in which governments use trade and financial aid to reward and punish others makes it difficult to always know what exactly has transpired.

However, jedd did not start this thread to share information for discussion, but to justify his own hatred for Israel. I could care less how he or anyone else feels about Israel or Iran or any of that Middle East bullshit; just stop trying to couch your blatant animosity in "reasoned" commentary, as it almost always seems to end up with the same poo-flinging.

I am still curious why Israel has not laid down railroad tracks from Gaza to Syria's border, and then started a mass evacuation of the Gaza Strip. Let Syria provide for these folks in a fresh fashion, other than being a conduit for simply arming and financing their terrorist leadership. Is this a just solution? Nope. But better than the deaths, I'd guess many might agree.

I have no quarrel with the arguments being made that Israel committed some serious bullshit acts, and I do believe they will suffer some consequences for that, whether we ever are made aware of them or not. The manner in which governments use trade and financial aid to reward and punish others makes it difficult to always know what exactly has transpired.

However, jedd did not start this thread to share information for discussion, but to justify his own hatred for Israel. I could care less how he or anyone else feels about Israel or Iran or any of that Middle East bullshit; just stop trying to couch your blatant animosity in "reasoned" commentary, as it almost always seems to end up with the same poo-flinging.

I am still curious why Israel has not laid down railroad tracks from Gaza to Syria's border, and then started a mass evacuation of the Gaza Strip. Let Syria provide for these folks in a fresh fashion, other than being a conduit for simply arming and financing their terrorist leadership. Is this a just solution? Nope. But better than the deaths, I'd guess many might agree.

I started this thread to show more evidence of Israeli crimes. It is not about hatred, it is about Justice.

I started this thread to show more evidence of Israeli crimes. It is not about hatred, it is about Justice.

Bullshit.

There was a faint glimmer of hope that this thread might have been somewhat intelligent and perhaps not be another Jedd and Wiggo vs. the rest event.

Nope. Just more of the same old Jedd crying out for attention garbage.

No one gave a shit the last 100 + page thread. Should things be different now? Plenty of people have tried to explain things in a erudite manner to make themselves appear to have some kind of moral or intellectual high ground. Well fuck all that too. How about some plain, coarse reality?

Jedd. Wiggo. Just stop. STOP. Shut the fuck UP! NO ONE CARES what a bunch of camel fuckers halfway around the goddamn planet do to each other. OK? THAT CRYSTAL FUCKING CLEAR??? Every knows its a shame. A travesty etc. Fine. Just stop bringing it up. You made your point MONTHS ago and many threads/pages ago. No more graphs. No more maps of insignificant shithole nations in that cesspool of the world. No more endless circular logic that goes nowhere. Just save it. Spend your time doing something else. You want Justice? Well too fucking bad. You are going to be waiting a goddamn long time because "Justice" is a word that does not translate too well into Arabic or Hebrew.

Bullshit.

There was a faint glimmer of hope that this thread might have been somewhat intelligent and perhaps not be another Jedd and Wiggo vs. the rest event.

Nope. Just more of the same old Jedd crying out for attention garbage.

No one gave a shit the last 100 + page thread. Should things be different now? Plenty of people have tried to explain things in a erudite manner to make themselves appear to have some kind of moral or intellectual high ground. Well fuck all that too. How about some plain, coarse reality?

Jedd. Wiggo. Just stop. STOP. Shut the fuck UP! NO ONE CARES what a bunch of camel fuckers halfway around the goddamn planet do to each other. OK? THAT CRYSTAL FUCKING CLEAR??? Every knows its a shame. A travesty etc. Fine. Just stop bringing it up. You made your point MONTHS ago and many threads/pages ago. No more graphs. No more maps of insignificant shithole nations in that cesspool of the world. No more endless circular logic that goes nowhere. Just save it. Spend your time doing something else. You want Justice? Well too fucking bad. You are going to be waiting a goddamn long time because that is a world that does not translate too well into Arabic or Hebrew.


Go fuck yourself...

I will post whatever the fuck I want on a goddamn discussion board.

There is so much that is wrong with your post, mostly in regards to how fucked up of a view you have of other people on the other side of the world.

Does it make you feel good to claim them as insignificant, and refer to them as camel fuckers? Because from where I am standing it makes you look like a piece of shit.

How the fuck am I crying out for attention? I am pissed off over fucking genocide and I need to be the one to shut the fuck up?

Jesus your outlook on shit is so fucked up. Maybe Instead of me shutting up, your ass should be raising your voice instead of sitting on the sidelines shushing me for being pissed off that they are using fucking 11 year olds as human shields. A FUCKING MILITARY using children!!!You think I should shut up? What a bitch!

How about you shut the fuck up and stay out of the thread if you don't like its contents. GTFO!

it is about Justice.


In Iran, a 15 year old boy can be executed, and so can a 9 year old girl. Those are the age levels at which execution becomes a potential sentence, in that country. (Ah, the sexist nature of Islam)

We can go to almost any country and find acts that are heinous in the view of someone; it does not make any of them okay, or justify anything. It is a fact of life on this planet, as splintered as it is by religion and philosophy and socio-economic status, etc.

You are the Hannity/Olbermann of the Islamic/Israel theater.

It is a futile position.

In Iran, a 15 year old boy can be executed, and so can a 9 year old girl. Those are the age levels at which execution becomes a potential sentence, in that country. (Ah, the sexist nature of Islam)

We can go to almost any country and find acts that are heinous in the view of someone; it does not make any of them okay, or justify anything. It is a fact of life on this planet, as splintered as it is by religion and philosophy and socio-economic status, etc.

You are the Hannity/Olbermann of the Islamic/Israel theater.

It is a futile position.

There is a huge difference between the inhumanity of giving the death penalty to a child criminal, and murdering thousands of innocent people.

As much as it bothers me, there is a difference between cultural differences regarding what age you can get which punishment, and pure hatred leading to mass murder.

Bottom line is you would care if they were Americans being murdered. The fact that you refuse to put yourself in their position and show the least amount of sympathy realizing how lucky you are that it is not you or your people, is sad.

The fact that you refuse to put yourself in their position and show the least amount of sympathy realizing how lucky you are that it is not you or your people, is sad.

No, jedd, what is sad is that you sit in front of your monitor deciding what people are feeling across the country, and in some cases oceans, and attack based on that. You have some serious psychological problems, believing you know what is going on mentally and emotionally with people you have never even met. That, or you are really, really slow, and are being played for a fool.

Either is sad.

There is so much that is wrong with your post, mostly in regards to how fucked up of a view you have of other people on the other side of the world.

Am I supposed to care? Let me look that one up. Hmmmm is there a law that specifically states that yes I need to care about the plight of those half way around the world? Am I even morally obligated?

The answer is a resounding NO.

No Jedd. I am not obligated to care and thus, choose not to.

I have seen alot of this earth and the people that live on it. The end result is that I really like the United States more and more and other countries tend to get filed under impartial or indifferent. Its my home. Why should I not put my home and my kin first on the priority list? There is only so much time in the day and compassion in one person's heart so its get allocated accordingly. Honestly, I think I had more compassion for the cow that became my lunch than anyone in the ME. Riddle me that one, Jedd. The Middle East is a place I just assume never deal with again. They can't deal with their own issues internally. Its almost fair to say they choose to not deal with it. They are happy right where they are.

Why should I give a shit then? The people in the Middle East don't.

/shrug.

Keep on stirring that pot.

No, jedd, what is sad is that you sit in front of your monitor deciding what people are feeling across the country, and in some cases oceans, and attack based on that. You have some serious psychological problems, believing you know what is going on mentally and emotionally with people you have never even met. That, or you are really, really slow, and are being played for a fool.

Either is sad.

I judge based on what is posted... You and most of those fighting to make Israel look good show that you do not care with your posts... Not my fault you come across as an asshole.

Fundamentalism refers to a belief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief) in, and strict adherence to a set of basic principles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles) (often religious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious) in nature), sometimes as a reaction to perceived doctrinal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine) compromises with modern social (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism) and political life.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#cite_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#cite_note-3)
The term fundamentalism was originally coined to describe a narrowly defined set of beliefs that developed into a movement within the Protestant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant) community of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) in the early part of the 20th century, and that had its roots in the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist-Modernist_Controversy) of that time. Until 1950, there was no entry for fundamentalism in the Oxford English Dictionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary);[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#cite_note-GIDDINSa-4) the derivative fundamentalist was added only in its second 1989 edition.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#cite_note-ORIGINOED-5)
The term fundamentalist has since been generalized to mean strong adherence to any set of beliefs in the face of criticism or unpopularity, but has by and large retained religious connotations.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#cite_note-ORIGINOED-5) The collective use of the term fundamentalist to describe non-Christian movements has offended some Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) who desire to retain the original definition.[who? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words)] In addition, some writers, editors, and scholars believe that calling Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists "fundamentalists" makes very little sense.[who? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words)]
Fundamentalism is often used as a pejorative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative) term, particularly when combined with other epithets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithet) (as in the phrase "Muslim fundamentalists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_fundamentalism)" and "right-wing fundamentalists").[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#cite_note-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#cite_note-7) Richard Dawkins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins) has used the term to characterize religious advocates as clinging to a stubborn, entrenched position that defies reasoned argument or contradictory evidence.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#cite_note-8) Others in turn, such as Christian theologian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_theology) Alister McGrath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alister_McGrath), have used the term fundamentalism to characterize atheism as dogmatic.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#cite_note-McGrath_2007-9)

If you think a wikipedia quote is bunk, than go read the references.

Thats you, Jedd. Nothing anyone will say to you or any arguement anyone presents will mean dick. The end.

No more Arabs vs. The World posts. Its over. The lines are clearly drawn. There is no one who can be swayed. Spend your time running for office, get a legal degree/pass the bar, get filthy rich and give it all to whatever cause you want. Hell, spend it all on rockets and suicide vests. Put your money where your mouth is but give it a rest here.

Do something that is tangiable.

I admit i didn't read this entire thread.... but I found it interesting that it is deplorable when the Isreali's use a kid for a shield, but Hamas can strap bombs to them and it is just a tool in the war against Isreal.....

Yeah. I'll paypal you 50 bucks if you can show me once where any of us said it's okay to use children as suicide bombers, or that they are 'tools' for Hamas.

I won't wait up, since we both know you just pulled that right out of your ass.

And yeah, Sanchek let's close this thread. For Heaven's sake, this is a discussion board. We should not be debating one of the most important conflicts in the world today. Can we please get back to talking about what a fat fuck Rush Limbaugh is? Or arguing over Osg's chain emails?

P.S. I'm still loving the irony in Fandros pulling the race card. I guess it's different when you're not black with Rev. in front of your name, huh? SEE WHAT I DID THERE?!?

We should not be debating one of the most important conflicts in the world today.

We don't have debates here on this topic. That would imply that all parties in the discussion can acknowledge and respect other people's views while still defending their own. We all know that on the topic of the Middle East here on this board that doesn't happen. What we have is broken records, circular logic...and eventual disgust while any relevant or meaningful posts get buried in the dung heap. I hate myself for reading these threads, but there is always that spark of hope that something civil might happen and we can move past the status quo.

Nope. Not gonna happen. This one only took 3 pages to degenerate to the usual shit. So if you want to continue with ANYTHING concerning the middle east, than use this formula:

Initial post: Something compelling
Page 1: More posts. Perhaps a rebuttle. Still polite.
Page 2: Nydia posts something.
Page 2-3: Praise for Nydia. All Hail oh wise sage Nydia...etc etc.
Page 3-4: Halo says something British.
Page 3-4: Fandros bluntly contradicts. Malse usually says something intelligent and yet condescending with a touch of snide. Still its on topic and spot on even if you feel dirty after reading.
Page 4: Osg says something. Probably WASP and Republican. Here is probably the turning point down that steep slippery slope..
Page 5-25: Exchanges of "Your're an idiot", "Take your meds", "Your an asshole" between Fandros and Jedd. Maybe Osg. A few others. Its all white noise. You can copy paste the exchanges to fill up between 5-25. Its all the same. I usually post somewhere in here, so no one pays much attention and thus I can say whatever the fuck I want.
Page 25-150: More of the same. Just add Wiggo on Jedd's side. Some pictures, charts, maps, statistics. Some more calling the opposite idiots, assholes, more meds needed. Fandros, Jedd, Wiggo ping pong .....More copy paste.
150 on... The thread dies, only to be resurrected again on some other hopeless topic on the ME. The first pages holding the only civil discussion. The rest? pure trash. So, yah. Don't lock the thread. Just delete anything past page 4.

You suck...you left me out!

We don't have debates here on this topic. That would imply that all parties in the discussion can acknowledge and respect other people's views while still defending their own. We all know that on the topic of the Middle East here on this board that doesn't happen. What we have is broken records, circular logic...and eventual disgust while any relevant or meaningful posts get buried in the dung heap. I hate myself for reading these threads, but there is always that spark of hope that something civil might happen and we can move past the status quo.

Nope. Not gonna happen. This one only took 3 pages to degenerate to the usual shit. So if you want to continue with ANYTHING concerning the middle east, than use this formula:

Initial post: Something compelling
Page 1: More posts. Perhaps a rebuttle. Still polite.
Page 2: Nydia posts something.
Page 2-3: Praise for Nydia. All Hail oh wise sage Nydia...etc etc.
Page 3-4: Halo says something British.
Page 3-4: Fandros bluntly contradicts. Malse usually says something intelligent and yet condescending with a touch of snide. Still its on topic and spot on even if you feel dirty after reading.
Page 4: Osg says something. Probably WASP and Republican. Here is probably the turning point down that steep slippery slope..
Page 5-25: Exchanges of "Your're an idiot", "Take your meds", "Your an asshole" between Fandros and Jedd. Maybe Osg. A few others. Its all white noise. You can copy paste the exchanges to fill up between 5-25. Its all the same. I usually post somewhere in here, so no one pays much attention and thus I can say whatever the fuck I want.
Page 25-150: More of the same. Just add Wiggo on Jedd's side. Some pictures, charts, maps, statistics. Some more calling the opposite idiots, assholes, more meds needed. Fandros, Jedd, Wiggo ping pong .....More copy paste.
150 on... The thread dies, only to be resurrected again on some other hopeless topic on the ME. The first pages holding the only civil discussion. The rest? pure trash. So, yah. Don't lock the thread. Just delete anything past page 4.

Like I said... Get the fuck out of the thread if you don't like it...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/03/23/israel.gaza.un.report/index.html


The report said a working group had documented and verified reports of violations "too numerous to list."
For example, on January 15, in a town southwest of Gaza City, Israel Defense Forces soldiers ordered an 11-year-old boy to open Palestinians' packages, presumably so that the soldiers would not be hurt if they turned out to contain explosives, the 43-page report said.
They then forced the boy to walk in front of them in the town, it said. When the soldiers came under fire, "the boy remained in front of the group," the report said.
It said the boy was later released.




The report cited two alleged incidents from January 3. In one, it said, after a tank round struck near a house, a father and his two sons -- both younger than 11 -- emerged to look at the damage.
"As they exited their home, IDF soldiers shot and killed them (at the entrance to their house), with the daughter witnessing," the report said.
In the second, it said, "Israeli soldiers entered a family house in the Zeitoun neighborhood of Gaza City. Standing at the doorstep, they asked the male head of the household to come out and shot him dead, without warning, while he was holding his ID, hands raised up in the air, and then started to fire indiscriminately and without warning into the room where the rest of the family was huddled together.
"The eldest son was shouting in vain the word 'Children' in Hebrew to warn the soldiers. The shooting did not stop until everyone was lying on the floor. The mother and four of the brothers, aged 2-12 years, had been wounded, one of them, aged 4, fatally."


The report said the Israeli operation resulted in "a dramatic deterioration of the living conditions of the civilian population."
It cited "targeted and indiscriminate" attacks on hospitals and clinics, water and sewage treatment facilities, government buildings, utilities and farming and said the offensive "intensified the already catastrophic humanitarian situation of the Palestinian people."
It said Israeli strikes damaged more than 200 schools and left more than 70,000 people homeless.
"There are strong and credible reports of war crimes and other violations of international norms," it said, adding that many observers have said war crimes investigations should be undertaken.
"The alternative is de facto impunity," it said.




Another report issued Monday also was critical of the IDF. The report from Physicians for Human Rights (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/physicians_for_human_rights) said the Gaza incursion violated IDF's own code of ethics.
The report by the medical group, which shared the 1997 Nobel Peace Prize, cited instances where it said IDF forces did not evacuate injured civilians for days and prevented Palestinian teams from reaching the wounded, and said some of them died as a result.
It said 16 Palestinian medical personnel were killed by IDF (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/israeli_defense_forces) fire and 25 were wounded during the IDF operation, and accused the IDF of attacking 34 medical centers in violation of the IDF's own "ethical code for fighting terror."


But Dr. Dani Filc, PHR-Israel chairman, was skeptical that the investigation would prove useful. "There are considerable doubts that the IDF is the correct institution to investigate suspicions of these violations," he said.


"The IDF's repeated promises to the High Court to look into attacks on medical teams and medical centers have gone unfulfilled, and there are suspicions concerning its seriousness and readiness to carry out the matter."


And with Generals like this, it's no wonder...




The IDF has said it is investigating the claims, but its top general expressed skepticism Monday.
"I don't believe that soldiers serving in the IDF hurt civilians in cold blood, but we shall wait for the results of the investigation," Lt. Gen. Ashkenazi, the chief of staff, said in a speech.
"I tell you that this is a moral and ideological army."


That red right there about the moral army is the biggest crock of shit I have ever read on this screen!

You know dude...it's war...shit happens...people don't always think clearly or rationally. Kids get killed...families get bombed...artillery hits random targets...generals use kids to clear mine fields...snipers shoot at known civilian targets...it all sucks...but it happens, very very tragically it happens...

You know dude...it's war...shit happens...people don't always think clearly or rationally. Kids get killed...families get bombed...artillery hits random targets...generals use kids to clear mine fields...snipers shoot at known civilian targets...it all sucks...but it happens, very very tragically it happens...

They are in perpetual war... If it keeps happening, it is no different then Genocide.

You suck...you left me out!

Oh shit. My bad.

Page 4: Osg says something. Probably WASP and Republican. Rover smacks Osg upside the head with a television set. (see below)Here is probably the turning point down that steep slippery slope..

http://www.doubleviking.com/dv_images/rml_grosspointe/popcorn.jpg


Popcorn!

They are in perpetual war... If it keeps happening, it is no different then Genocide.

Well, bravo on doing your part. Keep the hate alive. As long as we all get called a bunch of Israel lovers for not agreeing with you, well that is just futher reinforces that nothing will ever get done to fix it.

Well, bravo on doing your part. Keep the hate alive. As long as we all get called a bunch of Israel lovers for not agreeing with you, well that is just futher reinforces that nothing will ever get done to fix it.

Sorry cupcake, but if you respond to facts with "You are racist" as Fandros does, you get labeled more then just Israel lover. You get labeled a fuckin joke.

Does it ever occur to you that many just don't agree with finding fault with just one party? That its NOT that black and white? There is alot with this thread that covers complex issues in a veil of blanket statements. Ranging from there is one rightous good side and another dark evil sinister side, ranging all the way to posts arguing that war should have RULES and it should be MORAL. Nope. All bullshit.

First off, as Rover said. It is WAR. If you want to script it and make rules and turn it into a game of Risk or Monopoly where it almost could be a form of entertainment...then where is the deterant? Is there going to be a ref that comes out on the battle field and throws a flag along with a whistle blow? The threat of war should be enough to deter war! There are no rules or morality. Its murder on a mass scale for fucks sake, going against everything that living in a civilized society represents. And yet people are outraged when events like this happen.

Well. Stop. Find a middle ground and stop. And yet, it goes on. The Middle East will find peace like people say they will quit smoking. They quit when they are ready or die saying they will get around to it eventually.

I think fault is to be found on both sides. God knows the Palestinians have blood on their hands. I don't make excuses for anyone - I'm a damned liberal! When I hear about Hamas exploiting innocents I get just as riled up as the rest of you. Palestine (Read: Hamas) banks off its underdog status like the fucking NY Giants and then goes running to the interntional community like a bunch of pussies. They have commited many acts of terrorism/violence that are beyond reproach. Unfortunately, they have been matched toe to toe by Israeli aggression, and we're left with a clusterfuck of (un)diplomatic buffoonery.

I just cant ignore the numbers. Too many innocent people are dying. And I realize that it happens on both sides, but as far as its been documented, the Palestinians are taking the brunt.

Any life lost is a tragedy. This is compounded in a conflict where the vast majority of casualties are civilians.

:(

Oh, and I also was left out. (Re: Lummus)

:(


http://paulnelsonbachelorparty.com/images/im_a_shark2.jpg

Oops. My bad Again!

Page 6: Wein posts a funny singing shark pic. Laughter insues! Jedd probably insists that people might be trying to derail his "serious debate".
Page 6-7: Everyone else I forgot reminds me that I forgot them and they feel slighted so THIS is where everyone else that I forgot chimes in and either decides to talk about recipies, sports, post something logical and compelling to be drowned out in the poo flinging, post more funny pictures of wild life etc while aforementioned people remind each other about how they are assholes, fucking idiots and need to take their meds.


http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/30701/222963707anteaterjpgnosoo1.jpg

Oops. My bad Again!



Page 6: Wein posts a funny singing shark pic. Laughter insues! Jedd probably insists that people might be trying to derail his "serious debate".

Page 6-7: Everyone else I forgot reminds me that I forgot them and they feel slighted so THIS is where everyone else that I forgot chimes in and either decides to talk about recipies, sports, post something logical and compelling to be drowned out in the poo flinging, post more funny pictures of wild life etc while aforementioned people remind each other about how they are assholes, fucking idiots and need to take their meds.





YOu missed me too.....
I feel sad :(

Jedd, we get it. It all sucks in the Middle East, and your position is Israel is to blame. Hamas can do no wrong in your eyes (one man's terrorist, et. al.).

For the sake of Almighty Allah, please don't post a map and/or graph at this point!

first of all, if you dont care about it...why are you in the god damn thread? no one is forcing you to participate, stop shitting it up for everyone else.

secondly, how can you just say 'hey dude, its war, shit happens'? this is so incredibly dumb, and regardless of what you think, there ARE rules. what do you think the nuremburg trials were about? what do you think the term war criminal means? you think because in war atrocities are bound to happen we should simply dismiss them and say 'oh, its fine, there was a war'? you seem to be living in the 1800s.

yes, its war, and just like when you invaded iraq, the invader has to take responsibility for invading. you cannot simply dismiss the utterly massive numbers of 'collateral damage', because these are a large part of why you should never have started the god damn war.

iraq; 2003-2006, 392,979 to 942,636 excess iraqi deaths, but hey, "shit happens".

Says the guy whose country hasn't invaded jack since before the Middle Ages....

You say that like it's something to be ashamed of...

:confused:

Says the guy whose country hasn't invaded jack since before the Middle Ages....

what the fuck is this? ignoring for a moment how wrong you are, are you really calling me a sissy because my country isnt killing as many innocent people as yours? way to go, champ.

Not something to be ashamed of, but defenitely consider the perspective. It's easy to disparage someone juggling when they drop something. However, if you can't even juggle yourself, you have no room to talk.

So beyond being Hitler's Bitch in WWII, what has Sweden done to take an active part in world events, recently?

Not something to be ashamed of, but defenitely consider the perspective. It's easy to disparage someone juggling when they drop something. However, if you can't even juggle yourself, you have no room to talk.

So beyond being Hitler's Bitch in WWII, what has Sweden done to take an active part in world events, recently?

you have the mental capacity of a 2 year old, you mouth breathing half-wit. your understanding of history rivals that of an amoeba.

Wow, way to address the issues.

Let's hear it for Wiggo, everyone!

*crickets chirp*

Wow, way to address the issues.

Let's hear it for Wiggo, everyone!

*crickets chirp*

the issue only exists in your very underdeveloped mind, you infant.

I must have struck a nerve! Looks like Wiggo is frothing at the mouth. I think if you count the numbers of insults he spews in a row, its a direct correlation to his ire.

Either that or his translation software is on the fritz, again.

I guess since you didn't answer, Wiggout, the answer must be: Sweden hasn't done a thing to take a part in world events since being Hitler's Bitch in WWII.

When your country tries to take a lead in world affairs, then you might be justified in criticizing other countries for trying and failing. Otherwise, your ramblings are of the same timbre as those who criticize others for things that they cannot do themselves.

I must have struck a nerve! Looks like Wiggo is frothing at the mouth. I think if you count the numbers of insults he spews in a row, its a direct correlation to his ire.

Either that or his translation software is on the fritz, again.

I guess since you didn't answer, Wiggout, the answer must be: Sweden hasn't done a thing to take a part in world events since being Hitler's Bitch in WWII.

When your country tries to take a lead in world affairs, then you might be justified in criticizing other countries for trying and failing. Otherwise, your ramblings are of the same timbre as those who criticize others for things that cannot do themselves.

i feel that in the light of recent events i must amend my earlier statement: 2 years was way too high, we're talking first trimester here folks.

Sixee you are such a joke man... It is hilarious!

Ok, let me see if I have this so far....


Members of the Israeli army have come forth to expose what should be considered as criminal acts during the Gaza offensive.

Some have chosen to use this as further justification to castigate the state of Israel rather than cheer the bravery of those who are speaking out and opening up their political leaders, military officers and comrades in arms to investigation and scrutiny and derision.

jedd has demonstrated why he should be arrested for the torture (waterboarding) of Iraqi and AQ prisoners, as he is an American citizen and should be considered responsible just as he finds all Israeli citizens responsible for the acts of some.

And, Sixee has embarrassed himself again. Am I missing anything, other than the poo-flinging?

And, Sixee has embarrassed himself again. Am I missing anything, other than the poo-flinging?


No, you're dead on target...fire for effect.

Members of the Israeli army have come forth to expose what should be considered as criminal acts during the Gaza offensive.

Some have chosen to use this as further justification to castigate the state of Israel rather than cheer the bravery of those who are speaking out and opening up their political leaders, military officers and comrades in arms to investigation and scrutiny and derision.

jedd has demonstrated why he should be arrested for the torture (waterboarding) of Iraqi and AQ prisoners, as he is an American citizen and should be considered responsible just as he finds all Israeli citizens responsible for the acts of some.

And, Sixee has embarrassed himself again. Am I missing anything, other than the poo-flinging?

What are you smoking?

When did I ever say that every Israeli citizen should be punished? Have you degenerated so low as to put words in my mouth?

The government is responsible for the actions of its military. When members of the Israeli government have gone so far as to knowingly incite violence with their actions(Sharon visiting the Temple mount to get a reaction), and other such foolishness, and then murder over a thousand innocent people in response to 3 civilian deaths over a period of 4+ years by rocket fire, then they deserve the consequences.

There are hardliners in the Israeli MILITARY that are in positions of power and believe the land belongs to the Jews and that all the Muslims need to be expelled one way or another.

That is fucking ridiculous man, and you know it. If members of the KKK were generals in our army and we were at war with an African country, the same kind of topics would come up, if there were thousands of dead black civilians, and 12 dead total Americans.

Those soldiers should be commended for the bravery it took for them to speak up. That does not change the fact that Israel commits war crimes in EVERY single military op they engage in.

Like the article I posted said... If action is not taken to put the leaders of Israel on trial for these crimes, then there will never be any action that will be big enough to warrant a trial.

How you connected this to the average citizen of Israel is beyond my capability to comprehend. Besides, I voted for the other guy, so even if I believed such a stupid thing as you imply, I would not be responsible! :)

It happened in Lebanon, and it has happened repeatedly in Gaza. The Israeli's have proven time and time again that Muslims lives have no value.

The Israeli's have proven time and time again that Muslims lives have no value.


Much as you attempted to defend against my statement, the above sentence rubber stamps what I said.

You want to speak in generalizations, fine; deal with the ramifications of Fanny calling you a racist or me making my post above. Otherwise, try to stick to isolating the bad from the rest.

After all, I do not harbor any illusions that your parents are in any way lacking just because they come from the same place as Ahmanutjob; that would be a generalization. I don't say Iranians are wackos.

Much as you attempted to defend against my statement, the above sentence rubber stamps what I said.

You want to speak in generalizations, fine; deal with the ramifications of Fanny calling you a racist or me making my post above. Otherwise, try to stick to isolating the bad from the rest.

After all, I do not harbor any illusions that your parents are in any way lacking just because they come from the same place as Ahmanutjob; that would be a generalization. I don't say Iranians are wackos.

So if you say The Chinese when speaking about the Chinese military and government you are clumping the people in also?

If you say the Iranians in reference to the government and military you are speaking of the citizens as well?

No. I clearly posted who I blame, and refuse to add a "Military" or "government" after ever reference just to save you from getting butt hurt.

If you don't get who and what I am talking about, that is on you to stop being a retard.

So if you say The Chinese when speaking about the Chinese military and government you are clumping the people in also?

If you say the Iranians in reference to the government and military you are speaking of the citizens as well?

No. I clearly posted who I blame, and refuse to add a "Military" or "government" after ever reference just to save you from getting butt hurt.

If you don't get who and what I am talking about, that is on you to stop being a retard.

Awww, your self-righteous indignation and attempts to twist and spin and justify your oh so obvious hatred of the Israeli people gets to be so cute; and yet, it is simply another shade of the same palette you have been painting Israel from for the past several years. :rolleyes:

Awww, your self-righteous indignation and attempts to twist and spin and justify your oh so obvious hatred of the Israeli people gets to be so cute; and yet, it is simply another shade of the same palette you have been painting Israel from for the past several years. :rolleyes:

You are on some serious crack!

And, Sixee has embarrassed himself again. Am I missing anything, other than the poo-flinging?

Funny, I don't feel embarrassed.....

Jedd, it's quite obvious that you think all Israelis are implicit in anything to do against Palestinians. I can't ever remember where you have said "The Israeli Army is to blame." It's always Israel this, and Israel that. That includes the civilians.

Perhaps why that's the reason you don't decry the actions of the Palestinians when they target obviously civilian targets in Israel.

Funny, I don't feel embarrassed.....

Jedd, it's quite obvious that you think all Israelis are implicit in anything to do against Palestinians. I can't ever remember where you have said "The Israeli Army is to blame." It's always Israel this, and Israel that. That includes the civilians.

Perhaps why that's the reason you don't decry the actions of the Palestinians when they target obviously civilian targets in Israel.

If I was misunderstood then let me clear it up for you now... The military and government of Israel is full of fucking murdering pieces of shit.

If I was misunderstood then let me clear it up for you now... The military and government of Israel is full of fucking murdering pieces of shit.

True. Very true. No one will deny that. No one has been trying to deny that from day one. People have been arguing what is considered fair provocation and response more than anything. The bone of contention is the question of is Hamas innocent? Were those rockets, delivered with tender loving care packed with hugs as warheads? Naw. They caused fear, destruction of property, and death.

You also seem to think that for certain situations, correct me if I am wrong: EI call me a fucking idiot or whatever gets a rise, that given the governments, military and civilan population of most nations should be held seperately accountable and yet for Israel there is no distinction? If you are throwing in with Hamas, who typically launch these primative rocket strikes at large population centers within their range and not political or military targets, that its quite OK to kill Israeli civilians? Yet, Israel, held to a different standard due to your overflowing and seething hatred, should be limited?

I am sure you will feed the usual line that Israel is a bunch of oppressive, genocidial savages on an occupation campaign whose only goal is to enslave Palestine and that all Israelis must die etc. You can save that. Its been said and done. Same goes for the suggestion of any further discussion of the nature of warfare.

Now here is a thought. Why doesn't Iran, who seem perfectly Ok to use the Palestians to futher their own bullshit causes donate a parcel of that windswept wasteland of a country to form an actual Palestinian COUNTRY? Obviously they have a nation but not a plot of land to base it upon. How about some of the other Arab states? None of the land in that region is any better than another other than the black sludge that lurks under it and even that shouldn't be a constraint. Perhaps if the Palestians had a way to stand on their own by generation of income in international trade of an in demand resource could that only serve to bring some peace and stability? So how about not fighting over one shitty plot of land the international community has pretty much decided on is not soveriegn mandated Palestinian land and instead giving them their own shitty plot of land so they can start anew as their own nation? Of course, noone can force this on them like when Israel was created. Arabs would have to do this on their own as their own example of good faith.

Or is this too much about religion and/or is this a case of the only thing Arabs hate more than Israelis is other Arabs and such a show of solidarity unthinkable? Can you, and the rest of the fundementalist/Islamist centered people of that region embrace something a bit more pragmatic in order to lay this to rest? Israel, like it or not, isn't going anywhere and there is alot of wide open empty space in the ME, especially with the large push for urbanization IE: Dubai, Kuwait City etc.

True. Very true. No one will deny that. No one has been trying to deny that from day one. People have been arguing what is considered fair provocation and response more than anything. The bone of contention is the question of is Hamas innocent? Were those rockets, delivered with tender loving care packed with hugs as warheads? Naw. They caused fear, destruction of property, and death.

I never EVER said Hamas was innocent. I did however say that I believe they have the right to respond militarily to Israel's blatant encroachment into Palestinian land, and I understand the anger they are feeling. Does it give them the right to kill innocent people? NO, however they are fighting the only way they can.

You would have them shoot off fireworks instead as a protest as if that would get anyone's attention.

You also seem to think that for certain situations, correct me if I am wrong: EI call me a fucking idiot or whatever gets a rise, that given the governments, military and civilan population of most nations should be held seperately accountable and yet for Israel there is no distinction? If you are throwing in with Hamas, who typically launch these primative rocket strikes at large population centers within their range and not political or military targets, that its quite OK to kill Israeli civilians? Yet, Israel, held to a different standard due to your overflowing and seething hatred, should be limited?

Once again I NEVER said the Israeli civilians are clumped in with the government and Military, though there are quite a few of them that would just as rather wipe out the Palestinians completely with no remorse, I still would not generalize them completely. I have said it a thousand times and it just does not register with you people. Because obviously if I think Israel is wrong, I MUST think Hamas is 100% correct in all its actions right?

Israel is held to a different standard then Hamas indeed. Israel has Fighter's, Nukes, Cruise Missles, Anti Air, Tanks, Night Vision, Balistic missiles. Hamas has Rockets...

If you hold them to the same standards you are insane. Israel needs to show restraint. Killing civilians does not stop terrorism or war, it creates more. The Palestinians are already living in hell, it is on Israel to make that life a better one before the attacks will stop.

We sure as hell wouldn't stop attacking the russians if they had tanks rolling through our streets, destroying our infrastructure and taking our land. Yet somehow you consider the Palestinians as less then people. You think they should accept it and leave and lay down their arms.

Until you aknowledge that Israel has violated International law and countless resolutions, encroaching on Palestinian territory, there can be no discussion. Once you accept that fact, you will then be forced to agree that the Palestinians have a right to respond, both morally and legally.

I am sorry that Palestinian rockets are unguided and kill 3 civilians in a matter of 5 years, but if the U.S. would provide Hamas with missiles and guidance equipment, then perhaps they could destroy a barracks or a military training facility and make you feel better.

Now here is a thought. Why doesn't Iran, who seem perfectly Ok to use the Palestians to futher their own bullshit causes donate a parcel of that windswept wasteland of a country to form an actual Palestinian COUNTRY? Obviously they have a nation but not a plot of land to base it upon. How about some of the other Arab states? None of the land in that region is any better than another other than the black sludge that lurks under it and even that shouldn't be a constraint. Perhaps if the Palestians had a way to stand on their own by generation of income in international trade of an in demand resource could that only serve to bring some peace and stability? So how about not fighting over one shitty plot of land the international community has pretty much decided on is not soveriegn mandated Palestinian land and instead giving them their own shitty plot of land so they can start anew as their own nation? Of course, noone can force this on them like when Israel was created. Arabs would have to do this on their own as their own example of good faith.

Do you know how many Afghan refugees and Iraqi refugees now reside in Iran? Do you have any clue how much of a strain it is on them to keep them in the country and not expell them?

You don't seem to understand that the Palestinians WANT to live in Palestine. Perhaps we should give Alaska to the Israeli's... Shit, there are more Palestinians in those 2 tiny pieces of shitty land then there are Israeli's in all of Israel.

Give the Jews Alaska, they own America anyways...

Or is this too much about religion and/or is this a case of the only thing Arabs hate more than Israelis is other Arabs and such a show of solidarity unthinkable? Can you, and the rest of the fundementalist/Islamist centered people of that region embrace something a bit more pragmatic in order to lay this to rest? Israel, like it or not, isn't going anywhere and there is alot of wide open empty space in the ME, especially with the large push for urbanization IE: Dubai, Kuwait City etc.

Do you even comprehend what a drag it would be to any country to take over 8 million poor homeless people in? Sorry bud, you are dreaming.

They're there because they were unwanted by every Arab country. Seems I read this somewhere, the only reason any of those pos countries are even interested in this issue is it gives them a way to strike at Israel without fear of getting their ass handed to them again.

When the U.S. does war by proxy, its the worst thing ever.

However when countries do it in the Middle East, using Palestinians, it is an acceptable tactic.

In regards to taking them in, why don't several countries work together to do so, if it is such a burden for just one?

They're there because they were unwanted by every Arab country. Seems I read this somewhere, the only reason any of those pos countries are even interested in this issue is it gives them a way to strike at Israel without fear of getting their ass handed to them again.

They are FROM there... How hard is this to understand? They were not UNWANTED by anybody.

When the U.S. does war by proxy, its the worst thing ever.

However when countries do it in the Middle East, using Palestinians, it is an acceptable tactic.

In regards to taking them in, why don't several countries work together to do so, if it is such a burden for just one?

You have no capacity to accept the truth, therefore you will continue to twist things to fit the situation into what you believe.

They are fighting for stolen land and rights. They are being supported with money, food, medical aid, and arms from other countries. So now it is a proxy war in your twisted logic.

And for the fucking last time... THEY...DON'T....WANT.....TO......LEAVE. Why don't you leave America and go live in some other western country right now? Cause this is your home jackass!

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25212480-7583,00.html

Now who's the victim of intentional self delusion Alex?

Answer is....( in the form of a question please )

Who is Jedd and his intentional bias against Israel to the extent of braying whenever approached with facts?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25212480-7583,00.html

Now who's the victim of intentional self delusion Alex?

Answer is....( in the form of a question please )

Who is Jedd and his intentional bias against Israel to the extent of braying whenever approached with facts?

Uh... You posted a opinion column from a evangelical christian ex muslim who had her father assassinated by Israel in response to a Egyptian attack. She fucking blames the Egyptians for fighting in the first place.

What a load of crock... you call that article fact? You are dilusional.

Ok. Thanks Jedd. That was a fine, poo free response. At least to my post. There has been a few others since I started typing...

Well, that proves that not much is going to happen. Israel isn't about to pack up shop and return the land. They have a vested interest in the area now with the investment in cities etc, plus there is the religious aspect. Even if someone offered Alaska to the Israelis, which is a snowballs chance in hell proposition, its doubtful they would take the offer. Neither side has any kind of strong leadership willing to deviate much from the status quo either. Granted Israel has shown some restraint compared to what they are actually capable of doing, but there is always more that could be done.

As for the International Law violations, well, who is going to spearhead such a movement? The US certainly isn't. Our credibility is shot in that dept. No one would take it seriously and in fact we might end up as defendants ourselves for actions taken in Iraq and so forth. You have to note that the US supports Israel for now, but they are far from being our friends and if we were offered an out of that support role we would probably gladly take it. Israel is a huge pain in our ass. Th EU might but then again its difficult for Europe to do much against Israel either. There is quite a bit of "history" to consider. The Asian nations really don't care all that much what goes on there outside of keeping the oil flowing. They have no religious or cultural ties to the region. The only nations that could put Israel on blast is Arab nations and Russia, which might prove nothing because again......bias? It wouldn't be a trial at all. justice still has to be fair for both the victims and the accused.

Nope. The world is going to sit on this. There are more pressing concerns and the only thing that could push this issues is Iran testing a nuclear weapon and formally declaring themselves as a nuclear armed state. With that it all depends on how Israel reacts and who chooses to back who.

Ok. Thanks Jedd. That was a fine, poo free response. At least to my post. There has been a few others since I started typing...

Well, that proves that not much is going to happen. Israel isn't about to pack up shop and return the land. They have a vested interest in the area now with the investment in cities etc, plus there is the religious aspect. Even if someone offered Alaska to the Israelis, which is a snowballs chance in hell proposition, its doubtful they would take the offer. Neither side has any kind of strong leadership willing to deviate much from the status quo either. Granted Israel has shown some restraint compared to what they are actually capable of doing, but there is always more that could be done.

As for the International Law violations, well, who is going to spearhead such a movement? The US certainly isn't. Our credibility is shot in that dept. No one would take it seriously and in fact we might end up as defendants ourselves for actions taken in Iraq and so forth. Th EU might but then again its difficult for Europe to do much against Israel either. There is quite a bit of "history" to consider. The Asian nations really don't care all that much what goes on there outside of keeping the oil flowing. They have no religious or cultural ties to the region. The only nations that could put Israel on blast is Arab nations and Russia, which might prove nothing because again......bias? It wouldn't be a trial at all. justice still has to be fair for both the victims and the accused.

Nope. The world is going to sit on this. There are more pressing concerns and the only thing that could push this issues is Iran testing a nuclear weapon and formally declaring themselves as a nuclear armed state. With that it all depends on how Israel reacts and who chooses to back who.

The US VETO's every single resolution so... We are complicit in Israel's breaking of the law.

Boardvets: Facts and frustration with the situational failure by both sides

Jedd: Isreali evil bray bray bray bray

So, you fail to read that the Arab countries refuse to allow Palestines the right to become citizens even if they marry a citizen? Didn't you contend that no Arab country refuses them?

Seemed like a pretty good article to me and illustrates the concerns many of us have about that area. It's a smoldering powder keg and the Palestines are being USED by Arabian countries , to the ill of the people ;(

The text, for those who can't follow the link:

INTERNATIONAL donors pledged almost $4.5 billion in aid for Gaza earlier this month. During the past few years it has been very painful for me to witness the deteriorating humanitarian situation in that narrow strip where I lived as a child in the 1950s.
The media tends to attribute Gaza's decline solely to Israeli military and economic actions against Hamas. But such a myopic analysis ignores the problem's root cause: 60 years of Arab policy aimed at cementing the Palestinian people's status as stateless refugees to use their suffering as a weapon against Israel.
As a child in Gaza in the '50s, I experienced the early results of this policy. Egypt, which controlled the territory then, conducted guerilla-style operations against Israel from Gaza. My father commanded these operations, carried out by Palestinian fedeyeen (Arabic for self-sacrifice).
Back then, Gaza was already the front line of the Arab jihad against Israel. My father was assassinated by Israeli forces in 1956.
It was in those years that the Arab League started its Palestinian refugee policy. Arab countries implemented special laws designed to make it impossible to integrate the Palestinian refugees from the 1948 Arab war against Israel.
Even descendants of Palestinian refugees who are born in another Arab country and live there their entire lives can never gain that country's passport. Even if they marry a citizen of an Arab country, they cannot become citizens of their spouse's country. They must remain Palestinian even though they may have never set foot in the West Bank or Gaza.
This policy of forcing a Palestinian identity on these people for eternity and condemning them to a miserable life in a refugee camp was designed to perpetuate and exacerbate the Palestinian refugee crisis.
So was the Arab policy of overpopulating Gaza. The UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, whose main political support comes from Arab countries, encourages high birthrates by rewarding families with many children. Yasser Arafat said the Palestinian woman's womb was his best weapon.
Arab countries always push for classifying as many Palestinians as possible as refugees.
As a result, about one-third of the Palestinians in Gaza still live in refugee camps. For 60 years, Palestinians have been used and abused by Arab regimes and Palestinian terrorists in their fight against Israel.
Now it is Hamas, an Islamist terror organisation supported by Iran, that is using and abusing Palestinians for this purpose. While Hamas leaders hid in the well-stocked bunkers and tunnels they prepared before they provoked Israel into attacking them, Palestinian civilians were exposed and caught in the deadly crossfire between Hamas and Israeli soldiers.
As a result of 60 years of this Arab policy, Gaza has become a prison camp for 1.5 million Palestinians. Both Israel and Egypt are fearful of terrorist infiltration from Gaza - all the more so since Hamas took over - and have always maintained tight controls over their borders with Gaza. The Palestinians continue to endure hardships because Gaza continues to serve as the launching pad for terror attacks against Israeli citizens. Those attacks come in the form of Hamas missiles that indiscriminately target Israeli kindergartens, homes and businesses.
And Hamas continued these attacks more than two years after Israel withdrew from Gaza in the hope that this step would begin the process of building a Palestinian state, eventually leading to a peaceful, two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There was no cycle of violence then, no justification for anything other than peace and prosperity.
But, instead, Hamas chose Islamic jihad. Gazans' and Israelis' hopes have been met with misery for Palestinians and missiles for Israelis.
Hamas, an Iranian proxy, has become a danger not only to Israel but also to Palestinians as well as to neighbouring Arab states, which fear the spread of radical Islam could destabilise their countries.
Arabs claim they love the Palestinian people, but they seem more interested in sacrificing them. If they really loved their Palestinian brethren, they would pressure Hamas to stop firing missiles at Israel. In the longer term, the Arab world must end the Palestinians' refugee status and thereby their desire to harm Israel.
It's time for the 22 Arab countries to open their borders and absorb the Palestinians of Gaza who wish to start a new life.
It is time for the Arab world to truly help the Palestinians, not use them.
Nonie Darwish, who grew up in Gaza City and Cairo, is the author, most recently, of Cruel and Usual Punishment (Thomas Nelson).

60 years of Arab policy aimed at cementing the Palestinian people's status as stateless refugees to use their suffering as a weapon against Israel.


I'll go with that, it is definately not beneath leaders from any country or ethnicity to play a card like that.

in other news..http://www.alternet.org/audits/129853/disturbing_idea_of_expelling_arabs_from_israeli_te rritory_gains_ground/

One of the more disturbing developments in the Middle East is a growing consensus among Israelis that it would acceptable to expel -- in the words of advocates "transfer" -- its Arab citizens to either a yet as unformed Palestinian state or the neighboring countries of Jordan and Egypt.

Such sentiment is hardly new among Israeli extremists, and it has long been advocated by racist Jewish organizations like Kach, the party of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, as well as groups like the National Union, which doubled its Knesset representation in the last election.

But "transfer" is no longer the exclusive policy of extremists, as it has increasingly become a part of mainstream political dialogue. "My solution for maintaining a Jewish and democratic state of Israel is to have two nation-states with certain concessions and with clear red lines," Kadima leader and Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told a group of Tel Aviv high school students last December, "and among other things, I will be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel, those whom we call Israeli Arabs, and tell them, ' your national solution lies elsewhere.'"

Such talk has consequences.

According to the Israeli Association for Civil Rights, anti-Arab incidents have risen sharply. "Israeli society is reaching new heights of racism that damages freedom of expression and privacy," says Sami Michael, the organization's president. Among the Association's findings:

* Some 55 percent of Jewish Israelis say that the state should encourage Arab emigration;

* 78 percent of Jewish Israelis oppose including Arab parties in the government;

* 56 percent agree with the statement that "Arabs cannot attain the Jewish level of cultural development";

* 75 percent agree that Arabs are inclined to be violent. Among Arab-Israelis, 54 percent feel the same way about Jews.

* 75 percent of Israeli Jews say they would not live in the same building as Arabs.

The tension between Israeli democracy and the country's Jewish character was the centerpiece of Avigdor Lieberman's Yisrael Beiteinu Party's campaign in the recent election. His party increased its Knesset membership from 11 to 15, and is now the third largest party in the parliament.

Lieberman, who lives in a West Bank settlement near Bethlehem, calls for a "loyalty oath" from Arab-Israelis, and for either expelling those who refuse or denying them citizenship rights. During a Knesset debate last March, Lieberman told Arab deputies, "You are only temporarily here. One day we will take care of you."

Such views are increasing, particularly among young Jewish Israelis, among whom a politicized historical education and growing hopelessness about the future has fueled a strong rightward shift.

In a recent article in Haaretz, Yotam Feldman writes about a journey through Israel's high schools, where students freely admit to their hatred of Arabs and lack of concern about the erosion of democracy.

"Sergei Liebliyanich, a senior, draws a connection between the preparation for military service in school and student support for the Right" Feldman writes, "' It gives us motivation against the Arabs. You want to enlist in the army so you can stick it to them. I like Lieberman's thinking about the Arabs. Bibi doesn't want to go as far."

[B]Feldman polled 10 high schools and found that Yisrael Beiteinu was the most popular party, followed by Likud. The left-wing Meretz Party came in dead last.

In part, the politicalization of the education system is to blame.

Mariam Darmoni-Sharviot, a former civics teacher who is helping implement the 1995 Kremnitzar Commission's recommendations on education and democracy, told Feldman, "When I talk to a civics class about the Arab minority, and about its uniqueness in being a majority that became a minority, my students argue and say it's not true that they [Arabs] were a majority." She said when she confronted teachers and asked why students didn't know that Arabs were a majority in 1947, the teachers become "evasive and say it's not part of the material."

In part, students reflect the culture that surrounds them.

"Israeli society is speaking in two voices," says Education Minister Yuli Tamir. "We see ourselves as a democratic society, yet we often neglect things that are very basic to democracy. If the students see the Knesset disqualifying Arab parties, a move that I've adamantly opposed, how can we expect them to absorb democratic values?"

All the major Israeli parties voted to remove two Arab parties, United Arab List-Ta'al and Balad, from the ballot because they opposed the Gaza war. Balad also calls for equal rights for all Israelis. Kadima spokesperson Maya Jacobs said, "Balad aims to exterminate Israel as a Jewish state and turn it into a state for all its citizens." Labor joined in banning Balad, but not Ta'al.

The Israeli Supreme Court overturned the move and both parties ended up electing seven Knesset members in the recent election.

"The ultimate aim here," says Dominic Moran, INS Security Watch's senior correspondent in the Middle East, "is to sever the limited ties that bind Jews and Arabs, to the point that the idea of the transfer of the Arab-Israeli population beyond the borders of the state, championed by Yisrael Beiteinu, gains increasing legitimacy."

This turn toward the Right also reflects an economic crisis, where poverty is on the rise and the cost of maintaining the settlements in the Occupied Territories and Israel's military is a crushing burden. Peace Now estimates that the occupation costs $1.4 billion a year, not counting the separation wall. Israel's military budget is just under $10 billion a year. According to Haartez, the Gaza war cost $374 million.

Some 16 percent of the Jewish population fall below the poverty line, a designation that includes 50 percent of Israeli Arabs.

"The Israeli reality can no longer hide what it has kept hidden up to now -- that today no sentient mother can honestly say to her child: ' Next year things will be better here,'" says philosophy of education professor, Ilan Gur-Ze'ev. "The young people are replacing hope for a better future with a myth of a heroic end. For a heroic end, Lieberman fits the bill."

Intercommunity tension manifests itself mainly in the Occupied Territories, where the relentless expansion of settlements and constant humiliation of hundreds of Israeli Army roadblocks fuels Palestinian anger.

This past December, settlers in Hebron attacked Palestinians after the Israeli government removed a group of Jewish families occuping an Arab-owned building. In response, the settlers launched "Operation Price Tag" to inflict punishment on Palestinians in the event the Tel Aviv government moves against settlers. Rioters torched cars, desecrated a Muslim cemetery, and gunned down two Arabs.

Settler rampages on the West Bank are nothing new, even though they receive virtually no coverage in the U.S. media. But a disturbing trend is the appearance of extremist settlers in Israel. Late last year Baruch Marzel, a West bank settler and follower of Kahane, threatened to lead a march through Umm al-Fahm, a largely Arab-Israeli town near Haifa.

"We have a cancer in our body capable of destroying the state of Israel," Marzel told The Forward, "and these people are in the heart of Israel, a force capable of destroying Israel from the inside. I am going to tell these people that the land of Israel is ours."

Arab-Israelis charge that settlers -- some of them extremists re-settled from Gaza three years ago -- played a role in last year's Yom Kippur riots in the mixed city of Acre and forced Arab families our of their houses in the east part of the city. Arabs make up about 14 percent of Acre and 20 percent of Israel.

Rabbi Dov Lior, chair of the West Bank Rabbinical Council, has decreed, "It is completely forbidden to employ [Arabs] and rent houses to them in Israel."

The Adallah Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights is urging Israeli Attorney General Mernachem Mazuz to investigate "Wild incitement to racism against Arabs in general and the [Arab] residents of Acre in particular."

On Oct. 15, three days after the Acre riots, two Arab apartments in Tel Aviv were attacked with Molotov cocktails. Seven Jewish men were arrested. The Arab residents of Lod and Haifa charge that they too are being pressured to move.

In the case of Lod, municipal authorities are open about their intentions. Municipal spokesman Yoram Ben-Aroch denied that the city discriminates against Arabs, but told The Forward that municipal authorities want Lod, to become "a more Jewish town. We need to strengthen the Jewish character of Lod and religious people and Zionists have a big part to play in this strengthening."

However, the growing lawlessness of West bank settlers and Jewish nationalists has begun to unsettle the authorities in Tel Aviv. After rightwing extremists tried to assassinate Peace Now activist Professor Zeev Sternhell, Shin Bet chief Yuval Diskin said the intelligence organization was "very concerned" about the "extremist right" and its willingness to resort to violence.

Even Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said "We are not willing to live with a significant group of people that has cast off all authority," and called Operation Price Tag a "pogrom."

So far, however, the government and Shin Bet have done little to rein in the rising tide of rightwing terror, which is aimed at Jews as well as Arabs.

Ahmad Tibi of the Arab Ta'al Party says that while Arab Israelis feel threatened by what Ben Gurion University political scientist Neve Gordan calls a "move toward xenophobic politics," Tibi warns that, "It is the Jewish majority that should be afraid of this phenomenon."

bolding mine.

Good read, I'm sure there's much ingrained hatred on both sides after so many years of tension.

JERUSALEM, March 20 (Reuters) - Rabbis in the Israeli army told battlefield troops in January's Gaza offensive that they were fighting a "religious war" against gentiles, according to one army commander's account published on Friday.

"Their message was very clear: we are the Jewish people, we came to this land by a miracle, God brought us back to this land and now we need to fight to expel the gentiles who are interfering with our conquest of this holy land," he said.

The account by Ram, a pseudonym to shield the soldier's identity, was published by the left-leaning Haaretz newspaper in the second day of revelations that have rocked the Israeli military. (www.haaretz.com "Shooting and Crying, 2009").

They were leaked from a Feb 13 meeting of armed forces members to share their Gaza experiences. Some veterans, alumni of an Israel Defence Force (IDF) military academy, told of the killing of civilians and their impression that deep contempt for Palestinians pervaded the ranks of the Israeli forces.

The institution's director, Danny Zamir, confirmed that Thursday's published accounts were authentic.

In longer excerpts in its Friday "Week's End" edition, the daily quoted 'Ram' as saying his impression of the 22-day operation was "the feeling of an almost religious mission".

It began when a devout sergeant in his unit "assembled the whole platoon and led the prayer for those going into battle", he said. "Also when we were inside they sent in those booklets full of Psalms, a ton of Psalms. I think the house I was in for a week, we could have filled a room with the Psalms they sent."

The officer felt there was a "huge gap between what the Education Corps sent out and what the IDF rabbinate sent out".

The corps distributed pamphlets about the history of Israel's fighting in Gaza from 1948 to the present, he said.

But the rabbinate's message imparted to many soldiers the sense that "this operation was a religious war".

"ALL TERRORISTS"

A squad commander from Ram's Givat Brigade, named as Aviv, recounted his misgivings about orders to break down doors with armoured vehicles and shoot anyone inside, floor by floor. In the event, the order was amended to include "operating megaphones" so advancing troops could tell people they had five minutes to get out or be killed.

Aviv said "there was a very annoying moment" when he briefed his men and one challenged that order, saying: "Yeah? Anyone who is in there is a terrorist, that's a known fact..."

"And then his buddies join in: 'We need to murder any person who's in there, yeah, any person who's in Gaza is a terrorist' and all the other things that they stuff our heads with, in the media," Aviv was quoted as saying.

The Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR) has put the Palestinian death toll during the war at 1,417 -- 926 civilians, 236 fighters and 255 police officers. Israeli officials have disputed those figures. Thirteen Israelis were killed.

On Thursday, an Israeli think-tank, the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, challenged the conclusion that close to 1,000 Gaza civilians were killed. It said a statistical analysis of PCHR's list of civilian casualties showed a disproportionate number of young men of fighting age.

Defence Minister Ehud Barak responded to the IDF revelations on Thursday by repeating Israel's description of its armed forces as the most moral in the world. The IDF said its judge advocate-general had ordered an investigation.

According to a soldier named as Moshe, investigations into battlefield conduct are not taken seriously. He said the attitude could be summed up as:

"It isn't pleasant to say so, but no one cares at all. We aren't investigating this. This is what happens during fighting..."

http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSLK403734

And to finally kill and place the stamp of "End Thread" I post this to sum up the whole situation.

http://rawstory.com/images/new/oliphant_gaza_israel_cartoon.jpg

The thread lives on yet...

Evidence of the Use of white phosphorous in Gaza... VIDEO EVIDENCE

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/human-rights-watch/israel-white-phosphorus-u_b_179606.html

Geeze you dolt we don't deny Israel over doing it hell we all agree that Israel is out of hand by far.

Thing is, they are not the only wrong party here and you refuse to see it. It's the reality you refuse to see, will continue to refuse to see as you are blinded by bigotry against the Israelis.

Again, follow the bouncing ball here, Israel is in the wrong and overreacted (especially using white phos).

However Hamas, and the other ME countries who use the Palestinian folks, are also in the wrong for provoking beyond all reasoning.

Playing the Racist card is ridiculous as it has been mentioned here many times and you have no other method of discussing this topic.

I contend Israel didn't just overreact... Israel has committed WAR CRIMES. String up Hamas along with the leaders of Israel for all I fucking care Fandros. Just give it up with attempts at equalizing the two sides in regards to how criminal they are.

Not going to give it up, both sides are wrong.

Your bigotry knows no bounds. This isn't black and white, there are no black hats vs white hats in this.

Both sides are wrong, if you weren't so blinded by hatred you'd see that.

Keep on braying ya low brow mule, it's to be expected that you can't comprehend the reality of this.

Not going to give it up, both sides are wrong.

Your bigotry knows no bounds. This isn't black and white, there are no black hats vs white hats in this.

Both sides are wrong, if you weren't so blinded by hatred you'd see that.

Keep on braying ya low brow mule, it's to be expected that you can't comprehend the reality of this.

Keep spouting nonsense, you sound ridiculous.

Both sides are wrong. Israel should know better. Israel committed crimes against Humanity. Hang the leaders of Hamas and Israel for the crimes they have committed. Just stop being so stupid as to compare a resistance group that got voted into office with a nation's government. If both of them kill innocents, both of them are wrong, and Israel should still be held accountable. Bottom line!

resistance group

Wait?!?

The Gaza population is a resistance group?!?

Well, shit, all the more reason Israel should evict them and ship them all to Syria for resettlement. A resistance group that is party to the rocket attacks on civilian population centers has no claim to sympathy, and should be removed from the area from which those attacks are being made. As I said earlier, sending them to Syria would allow (force) Syria to modify their aid from offensive to humanitarian.

Wait?!?

The Gaza population is a resistance group?!?

Well, shit, all the more reason Israel should evict them and ship them all to Syria for resettlement. A resistance group that is party to the rocket attacks on civilian population centers has no claim to sympathy, and should be removed from the area from which those attacks are being made. As I said earlier, sending them to Syria would allow (force) Syria to modify their aid from offensive to humanitarian.

You're an idiot... Learn to read.

As I said earlier, sending them to Syria would allow (force) Syria to modify their aid from offensive to humanitarian.

It would be nice, but its doubtful Syria could afford to do that. Alot of their population is already unemployed without much in the way of resources to take care of them. It would cause more trouble as their living conditions in Syria might actually end up being worse.

As for that cartoon, well the Isrealis and other Jews were highly insulted by it but thats probably as far as it will go. Words. We all know what happens when the shoe is on the other foot. If any thing even slightly protrays Islam or Allah in an unfavorable light, the calls for global jihad come in loud and clear and the life of originator of the offensive material is now forfeit. Thankfully not much comes of it.