As a jew I have been tought the value and importance of justice, in all endeavours and for all people. This Yom Kippur I have been reflecting on justice and injustice. The first thing that comes to mind is the Iraq war. There are many examples but I will give only this one. While there are many noble reasons to be for the war, ie fighting terrorism and oppression, there is one big reason to be against it; injustice. It is injust to be killing innocent people in an effort to kill insurgents. And by insurgents I mean people who are not fundamentally allied to Al Quaeda, but people who have joined the cause because some indiscriminate bomb or tank round killed someone they loved. War is ugly. There are pictures of mothers clutching dead babies, dead husbands, dead sons. This could be your mother, anyones mother. It breaks my heart. I saw a video on PBS where there was a squad patrolling a city and a medic of the squad decided to shoot some villagers dog for target practice. The dog died before my eyes as the dogs keeper ran to it and clutched its dying body as he wept and cursed the squad. Does this not move you? Has everyone lost thier sense of reverence for humanity and people's suffering?

I believe in karma but unfortunately karma isn't a very strong force. Many evil deeds go unpunished and many noble deeds go unnoticed. I guess you could call me an altruist. I do not believe in socialism per se. I don't think people that have no drive and give no effort should be rewarded. I also don't think that people who are sincere and work very hard should be denied opportunity or justice.

We as Americans have chosen the high road when it comes to our many forieng and domestic affairs. Why is it then that so many people are thrown to the side as the system subverts justice and so many people are denied justice. Do we as a society still pursue "justice for all" as our flag salute proclaims? And by "all", I mean every last human being on the face of this earth.

Come to Iraq and see for yourself what is going on and get your nose out of the TV and sensationalism. Iraq insurgents are killing more Iraq people then the US by the thousands. The people of Iraq, want and are thankful for our involvement and one Iraq gentlemen told me that he "Hoped we never leave". War is ugly, people dying on both sides is tragic. This war was not started by us, it hopefully will be finished by us however after Iraq becomes a democratic state.

If an insurgent shoots a mortar off and we injure him, as in shooting off a limb or whatever; we bring that person to an American hospital in Iraq. We treat Iraq children that are injured from these "roadside bombs". We are losing alot of people over here, alot of boxes draped with American flags are getting shipped to the US aboard these C17 aircraft, I know cause I was at attention saluting when they were carried past.

Iraq will be able to take care of itself in the coming years with a government in place, with a military that is able to control its people. When that time comes, I hope it sets an example for all the extremist middle east countries that are being ruled by hard liners instead of governments. When and if that day comes, the world will truly be a much better and safer place. I hope the day comes, I hope these kids are not dying in vain.

Please refer to the hearings conducted by Joseph McCarthy, and the many lives altered and/or destroyed by charges of communism or affiliation with known communists. That should provide one answer to whether "justice for all" is a factual concept in the US or something merely given lip service when it is the "right" thing to do.

I believe the Clooney movie regarding these hearings is opening soon, so you can watch that if the reading is too boring.

You can then also look to the Bush administration's opposition to congressional measures to outlaw torture of captured enemy combatants and/or terrorists, as far as the concept applying to those outside of US citizens.

"Justice for all" was a wonderful idea, but upon looking at the history of this country, and the treatment of Native Americans, chinese immigrants during the expansion of the railroads west, Africans during the slave owning years and since, females, .....well, you get the idea.

sometimes when i think too much about it. I'm deeply ashamed of the human species!

Keep in mind many of those insurgents are coming to Iraq to fight the infedel for their support of Israel..which is by and large made up of what ethnicity?

...ah Jewish.

What ever anyone believes it would be more of a crime for the US to leave Iraq at the moment.

If good people hadn't died Phel, you'd still be answering to a Pharaoh

The cost of freedom is always high, people wouldn't value it so much if it wasn't. Do I agree with everything that has happened?

No.

Do I think in the end it will have been worth it?

Yes.

Just because good people die, it does not mean what we are doing is wrong. I wish our enemy in Iraq had the bravery needed to fight on open ground away from cities filled with innocents, or that they would stop using women and children to carry their suicide bombs to kill more innocents. But that is not the case, they hide behind the tactics of cowards, praising Allah all the wile. Their leaders are the most dispacable sort who give human life no value. They are the men we are there to destroy, and unfortunately it means some innocents will die, but how many more will live when they are gone?

Given that the Torah was written by an Egyptian Pharoah ...

This war was not started by us,

Am I watching a different movie here?? Mine stars a chimp looking fella as comander in chief, and err... yep, he starts it all.

Am I watching a different movie here?? Mine stars a chimp looking fella as comander in chief, and err... yep, he starts it all.

Flashback to Cheney brokering arms deals with Saddam to fight against Iran. Then add in the manner in which we (the U.S.) turned a blind eye to Saddam's atrocious behavior toward his own citizens (i.e., the use of chemical warfare against the Kurdish separatists). This coddling of a tyrant allowed him to escalate to the invasion of Kuwait, at which point we said "Whoa, kimosabe! That is a no-no." We then relocated his forces from Kuwait, as well as taking steps to minimize his ability to make further trouble for his neighbors.

The U.N. established security measures, such as the no-fly zone, which was enforced primarily by U.S. aircraft and which Saddam consistently violated in vain attempts to provoke a renewed attack on his country which would have given him the needed propaganda tools to make allies out of much of the Islamic world.

Then, following Sept. 11, after we had "defeated" the Taliban in Afghanistan, Pres Bush made the decision to invade Iraq based on information which was known to the administration to be faulty but presented to the UN as factual proof that he was developing weapons of mass destruction. It had nothing to do with the U.S. being attacked, as there were no verifiable connections to the terrorists, who in fact were predominantly from the countries we call allies.

I am afraid I must disagree with Trikki on this one. We did start it. I only hope we have the backbone to finish it, having gone through one failed conflict already. Trikki is indeed right that if we can help provide a secure government and train sufficient troops to police their own country that it may have a lasting impact and provide impetus to the surrounding countries to make progressive changes. But if we leave before they are ready to stand on their own, after having started this, we will have forfeit our position as a leader in the global community.

Results of a poll (http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml) conducted by the British military.

Here's a movement you(Phel) and others might be interested in. . .

Friends for a Non-Violent World (http://www.fnvw.org/index.geni?mode=content&id=10021)

Establishing democracy in Iraq is a mission the Administration came to after its original justifications for invading Iraq, which faced stiff and widespread opposition in the US and around the world, were publicly revealed to be baseless. Rewriting history, a favorite past time around here...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020912-1.html
September 9, 2002

The United States has no quarrel with the Iraqi people; they've suffered too long in silent captivity. Liberty for the Iraqi people is a great moral cause, and a great strategic goal. The people of Iraq deserve it; the security of all nations requires it. Free societies do not intimidate through cruelty and conquest, and open societies do not threaten the world with mass murder. The United States supports political and economic liberty in a unified Iraq.http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/01/20020129-11.html
January 1, 2002

All fathers and mothers, in all societies, want their children to be educated, and live free from poverty and violence. No people on Earth yearn to be oppressed, or aspire to servitude, or eagerly await the midnight knock of the secret police.

If anyone doubts this, let them look to Afghanistan, where the Islamic "street" greeted the fall of tyranny with song and celebration. Let the skeptics look to Islam's own rich history, with its centuries of learning, and tolerance and progress. America will lead by defending liberty and justice because they are right and true and unchanging for all people everywhere. (Applause.)

No nation owns these aspirations, and no nation is exempt from them. We have no intention of imposing our culture. But America will always stand firm for the non-negotiable demands of human dignity: the rule of law; limits on the power of the state; respect for women; private property; free speech; equal justice; and religious tolerance. (Applause.)
America will take the side of brave men and women who advocate these values around the world, including the Islamic world, because we have a greater objective than eliminating threats and containing resentment. We seek a just and peaceful world beyond the war on terror.http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html
October 7, 2002
There is no easy or risk-free course of action. Some have argued we should wait -- and that's an option. In my view, it's the riskiest of all options, because the longer we wait, the stronger and bolder Saddam Hussein will become. We could wait and hope that Saddam does not give weapons to terrorists, or develop a nuclear weapon to blackmail the world. But I'm convinced that is a hope against all evidence. As Americans, we want peace -- we work and sacrifice for peace. But there can be no peace if our security depends on the will and whims of a ruthless and aggressive dictator. I'm not willing to stake one American life on trusting Saddam Hussein.

Failure to act would embolden other tyrants, allow terrorists access to new weapons and new resources, and make blackmail a permanent feature of world events. The United Nations would betray the purpose of its founding, and prove irrelevant to the problems of our time. And through its inaction, the United States would resign itself to a future of fear. That is not the America I know. That is not the America I serve. We refuse to live in fear. (Applause.) This nation, in world war and in Cold War, has never permitted the brutal and lawless to set history's course. Now, as before, we will secure our nation, protect our freedom, and help others to find freedom of their own.
20 seconds with Google and you get educated more than ever. Try it some time.

Free societies do not intimidate through cruelty and conquest...

Heh.

Of course, a few cherry-picked quotes can't compare to the deluge of warnings about WMDs, Powell's painful presentation to the UN, the depiction of Hussein as an "imminent" threat and so on. But hey, when you're view of education is indoctrination, anything will do in a pinch.

Such vitriol Thormir...you get pretty offended when people challenge your intellectual superiority don't ya? I used to come here and admire the fact you were so well read and even-handed in discussing most topics. Now, more often than not you just seem to be turning into another bombastic sensationalist.

when you're view of education is indoctrination

Please take the time to enlighten all who disagree with you, they need your pure education, not this indocrination!

*laugh*

Just a view from the sidelines...

What are you babbling about? My only previous post on this thread pointed to a poll. akipt responded to another poster, and I responded to akipt. I'm not offended by anything, amused more like (thus the "heh"). akipt's view of education is to keep one's head firmly implanted in a bag of Bush admin talking points, thus my comment.

If you want to drop slights from the sidelines, go ahead, but it impresses no one.

And fuck, I used the wrong "your."

If you want to drop slights from the sidelines, go ahead, but it impresses no one.The discussion was entirely ABOUT Bush's talking points, or rather what / when he advocated freedom for Iraqis. I think everyone here would agree that unless your name is Thormir, it's impossible for anyone to successfully argue with facts about an entirely different subject.

Sorry, if anyone was talking out of their ass to beat on strawmen from the sidelines, it was you Thormir. And Thoss called you on it. Haha.

What different subject? The only "discussion on talking points" is what you quoted from someone else's link, akipt. Before that, Bylimet gave his view on the run up to the war, Elemak got angry at the insurgents, Trikki asserted that we didn't start the war (talk about historical revisionism!), and Phelonius started it all off with karma.

Try Googling "strawman" on the internets before posting again about the entire discussion you were having through Grift3r's link. Heh.

Thoss apparently confuses a sense of humor with vitriolic intent, and emerges from his safe haven to make a silly comment slamming Thormir, which delights Akipt who invariably attempts to slam folks who think differently than he, and in his attempt to support Thoss Akipt steps on his dick while trying to redefine the thread to meet his idea of what is going on........

Have I got this about right?

And I must agree that Akipt, in his postings here, has shown a strong leaning toward the lockstep approach of indoctrination, Thoss; it is almost like trying to talk to a morning radio talk-show host on any topic other than what he wants to spin, and so his posts are often read with a hint of a smile as they have become rather predictable. But I am still happy to see him continuing to be part of the discussion, rather than sitting "on the sidelines" making judgements. So feel free to send a shot my way too.

If I disagree with you on something, it is I who wishes to implement indoctrination.

Thanks for the clarification.

I feared that once I posted someone would get my point across in a much more eloquent way. Well said Akipt.

I appreciate the primer on who's who around here but it really isn't needed.

Its just sad how issues are far too often "debated" through demonizing the opposing side and heaping on the hyperbole. I'm educated about the issues, someone with a widly differing viewpoint has been indoctrinated. My statements are conclusions I came to through a careful study, while yours are just simply regurgitated talking points. Its the same old "Us versus Them" "those damn libs/neocons" shit and its tiring.

I guess thats where my slight came from, picking up on those tones in Thormir's post(tongue in cheek or not). Though I suppose if we can't refrain from stooping to those levels in real life there's no hope for an interweb "community"

Thats a good place to stop my babbling I think. Hopefully no one notices the true intent of this post, just another attempt to impress the readers of the A Ro message board.

/shuffles off to his safe haven

:D

"Am I watching a different movie here?? Mine stars a chimp looking fella as comander in chief, and err... yep, he starts it all."

You must be too young to remember when the war started if that's your movie.