While New Orleans was spared (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/30/katrina.neworleans/index.html) a direct hit, the damage is considerable. A 200 foot section of the Pontchartrain levee broke, causing massive flooding. Both Louisiana and Mississippi (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/30/katrina/index.html) are reporting dozens of deaths; total casualties and damage reports won't be available for days or weeks.

If you would like to donate to the Red Cross, click here (https://www.redcross.org/donate/donation-form.asp). Families won't be able to return to their homes (if they have homes) for weeks or even months -- the ARC could use the help. Thanks,

-Thor'

New Orleans is underwater...

Just gave a bunch of cash

First, just so you know, I'm only about half as not nice as most of you think I am. I do my little parts to make the world be a better place. I give blood. I make a small from-paycheck donation to my favorite harmless charity.

...but what drives me insane is people who live in on coasts, in tornado alleys, on fault lines, along cliffs, in forests, and who need my help when it blows hard, shakes or catches on fire.

MOVE

This isn't north Africa. You're not a dirt-poor villager who can't make it to the next hamlet because there's no running water.

I do feel for the people who lost loved ones, especially any children, those who've had their lives shattered, but I wish the people who chose of their own free will to live where they know this sort of thing happens regularly - never - ever - see a dime of my money.

You get one natural disaster for free. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help. Second one is on you.

"You're not a dirt-poor villager who can't make it to the next hamlet because there's no running water."

You'll be surprised how many people who live there along the Mississippi make their livelyhood as fishermen or they work in the casinos. I'd say 60% of this area is impoverished and live there because their family lived there before them and they didn't have much of a choice. You aren't seeing people carting off in their luxory yachts on the news, are you?

Some people can afford to move, some people have, but along the oceans and shores are some of the few options these people have in order to make a decent wage.

You aren't seeing people carting off in their luxory yachts on the news, are you?

No, but I'm subsidizing their insurance policies all the same. People in these areas couldn't pay their insurance if I wasn't helping by paying way too much to live where it's "safe."

So people should move from California for fear of earthquakes, the midwest for fear of Tornados, NYC for fear of terrorists and The Gulf region and Florida for fear of Hurricanes?

Sound policy.

He's not saying that they should move. He's saying that they should be the ones to shoulder the burden of their choices.

Correct, Sanchek.

You understand how insurance works, right?
The more people paying in, the less your premiums are. The spreading out of risk.

So.. if the only people paying for Palimax's super safe insurance are him and whoever is residing in Dick Cheneys bunker, premiums wont go down.

And... thats not what he is saying. He is saying he feels people living in New Orleans have whats coming to them for not living in an area with no weather... such as Arizona.

To an extent, that's correct. Yes. Everyone who's living on a coast, fault line, tornado alley, or forest who isn't below the poverty line knows they live somewhere where <insert diety> is much more likely to have them turned into a pile of rubble once a year than elsewhere in the world, and, as such, they should either stop living there or start dealing with the consequences.

And, yes, every time a fire burns half of California to the ground, or wind and rain crushes the coast, my insurance goes up. You think those people are fully supporting their own premiums?

Look man, I'll do what I always do. Give (more) blood, drop off some bottled water at the Red Cross, and keep putting money in the jar at the office. ..but for fuck's sake man, stop living where you know it's only a matter of a few years before the hand of <diety> crushes your tin roof again.

The only part of this that irritates me...well, there are two parts. First, the looters of course. Not so much the people trying to get food to survive, but the riff raff breaking into businesses and such.

Second, those people who had the ability to leave but stayed behind to ride out the storm, only to go crying for help from their rooftops as the water rises.

I have heard that over and over as well Thormir, but I believe its a little more difficult than that. Many are poverty stricken with no car nor money to even drive a few blocks let alone couple hunded miles. You can bet many did do just exactly what you suggest (all the shelters are full to the brim)..leave while you can but some simply couldn't. The whole..move while you had a chance is no good either.

This is a fucking mess, they are Americans..do as you can.

stop living there or start dealing with the consequences.

...says the guy who lives in a desert

See, when the federal government decided that people in SW should have enough water, it paid for the infrastructure that delivers you fresh, clean H20 direct from the Rockies. In return, all of us had an increase in our taxes. Other Americans had to pay so some fools could live in an area that generally doesnt support life.

But in 10 years when you have a water crisis, remember... you CHOSE to live in the middle of a barren wasteland.

My girlfriend's uncles both live in New Orleans and have sat and ridden out plenty of hurricanes. Thank god one left this time (and we think the other is doing reasonably well, he lives on the north side of the lake) but the mentailty there is that they've rid it out before and they'll survive again.

There was an interesting poll on CNN: What should you do to someone who won't leave when they are forced to? I don't know what a good answer is, but there should be something shouldn't there?

We canceled my girlfriend's birthday vacation and are asking all her friends to give to the Red Cross on her behalf while donating the money for the vacation, and plan to head down in a few weeks to start rebuilding their family's estates.

Her family is the lucky ones, they have the cash to buy the insurance and to buy another house while waiting for the waters to receed. Poverty levels in the South is something that people here in the Northeast can't even begin to comprehend.

...says the guy who lives in a desert

See, when the federal government decided that people in SW should have enough water, it paid for the infrastructure that delivers you fresh, clean H20 direct from the Rockies. In return, all of us had an increase in our taxes. Other Americans had to pay so some fools could live in an area that generally doesnt support life.
And you can be sure that the federal government is going to send a very large amount of tax money to help rebuild New Orleans too. What Palimax is talking about is the residents' private property. Comparing that to public property and the city in general doesn't make any sense, unless we finally finished making the switch to socialism.

And where does the federal government get the money? Same pile.

Just curious Sanchek, what do you think makes up cities and towns and villages? Could it be... oh I dont know... private property?
Making as much sense as you normally do, what you are saying is you will rebuild the whole, but not the parts.

Your private property should be your own responsibility. Are you seriously suggesting that if a tornado hit my house tonight, I should expect a handout to make up for my own lack of planning if I didn't have insurance?

I have heard that over and over as well Thormir, but I believe its a little more difficult than that. Many are poverty stricken with no car nor money to even drive a few blocks let alone couple hunded miles.

Thus the part where I said:
...those people who had the ability to leave but stayed behind to ride out the storm...
=)

Thank god you're helping Phoenix get water.... Because.... ...oh, wait, you're completely wrong.

Water from the Rockies goes primarily to support farming in Arizona. We have plenty of water for "living" without it, and, it's not like the Colorado River (you know, that thing that carved the Grand Canyon) doesn't divide CA and AZ already. Feel free to ask who gets more of that water, by the way. Hint: It isn't Arizona.

Phoenix is in a valley, and on the Salt River. The Salt doesn't flow regularly, because it's dammed primarily for water treatment and recreational lakes. Trust me. There's not a shortage of water in AZ, unless you're a farmer along the Colorado who can't get enough water because it's all going to California.

96% of all of Phoenix's water comes from rivers - the Salt, Verde, and Colorado. The other 4%, as I understand it is primarily reclamation water for irrigation and farming. The rest is ground pumped, I imagine.

EDIT: I wanted to add: The other large cities in Arizona (Tucson, Flagstaff) have similar situations. Flagstaff is a mountain town, with no shortage of water, and Tucson is in the same sort of location that every city in the western US is - in a valley on a river (or two), but does have some problems with their grown exceeding the capacity of the Santa Cruz river.

Cheers.

Your private property should be your own responsibility. Are you seriously suggesting that if a tornado hit my house tonight, I should expect a handout to make up for my own lack of planning if I didn't have insurance?Sanchek, I'll help you this time. If everyone pitches in, you'll be back on your feet in no time. But next time you're on your own, dumbass.

Who said anything about no insurance? Dont try to invent a new argument because you are getting pummelled on the existing one. Besides, who doesnt own insurance on their home or property? Banks REQUIRE it for loans on property. Stop with the strawman arguments you retard.
But for the 4 people who didnt have homeowners insurance (because every single commercial property does), no I dont expect the government to pay for a new trailer for them.

And since this is a discussion about New Orleans, care to wonder who the only provider of flood insurance is?

I wouldn't insure a city 35' above sea level for flood either - which is my entire goddamned point.

I seriously wonder at the work it'll take to reclaim NO from this. The Lake has made it's bed in the city and I doubt it'll leave cheaply.

The pumps they used for years to keep NO afloat are smoked. It's hard to levy a dike after the fact and to top it off Hurricane activity in the future is on a projected rise.

Does it make sense to rebuild? Hell , I'm no hydroligist and I knew this was coming sooner or later.

Fandros

Palimax
http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/98/167/01_4.html

You may want to travel up a bit northward and learn the story of the people who lived there before you, the Anasazi.
Really interesting people. Around 1100 or so they had one of the great civilizations of the Americas. Rivaling even the Incas and Aztecs. They actually had major cities with these massive buildings 6 stories high where hundreds of people lived in each structure. They had a major empire for a few hundred years, maybe longer.
But by environmental mismanagement combined with the "great drought", and overpopulation (a side effect of a successful society) the civilization collapsed.
Arizona has a pretty good environmental plan, but it is offset by the fact that land is very close to holding more people than it can sustain. (an unnatural sustance)
The patterns of weather are cyclical. Arizona is very prone to droughts, and tree rings show they occur on a regular basis, from mild ones like you all had this summer to greater ones that wipe out civilizations.
Now you know.... plan on moving?

One does have to question the intelligence of building a city that big there without a lot more investment in flood control (or stilts). Obviously it's not like you can do anything about it now but dump a lot of money at it, but if we lived in a truly rational world that place would be left to sink. I wouldn't go so far as to say people who chose to stay behind deserved what they got, but it certainly wasn't too bright. We have very odd expectations about the environments we choose to live in.

I'm also a bit sickened by the victim complex going around already featured in such comments as "this is our tsunami." Are we so sad a nation that we must now borrow sorrow to feed our own self pity?

Lousiana didnt have this problem 100 years ago. But piss poor environmental management has caused shoreline erosion that removed the buffer that would have prevented so much of this shit.

/nods L2.

Hell, didn't the delta of the Mississippi used to be further west?

Fandros

Louisiana did have the problem a hundred years ago, that's why we kept building seditional impediments to make it worse. The mouth of the Mississippi wanders by miles based on the depositional and seditional force of moving water ... at least until we got in the way with our city.

Shoreline mismanagement, outdated pump equipment, loss of federal funds for hurricane damage prevention and engineers...and New Orleans is in one of the worst geographic positions imagineable. Recipe for disaster, just add water.

Who said anything about no insurance? Dont try to invent a new argument because you are getting pummelled on the existing one. Besides, who doesnt own insurance on their home or property? Banks REQUIRE it for loans on property. Stop with the strawman arguments you retard.
But for the 4 people who didnt have homeowners insurance (because every single commercial property does), no I dont expect the government to pay for a new trailer for them.
You aren't making any sense. By definition, you're the one pulling out straw man here by focusing on things like the insurance on my house and the water pipes in Arizona, while avoiding the whole point. If you think the majority of people in New Orleans live in a house with picket fences and are fully insured, you're very mistaken, and Palimax made it clear enough that you overstated the water subsidy in Arizona. That's not even the point though.

The point is that comparing Palimax's choice to live in Arizona to someone's choice to live in a basin next to an active hurricane region, is completely off kilter. Palimax has a good argument about the disproportionate funding (both private and public, really) in certain disaster prone areas. Trying to claim Arizona is even remotely comparable is silly like a thirteen year old girl at a Backstreet Boys concert.

Nice try at redirection though. This is about the time where you either post a screenshot you copied off FoH or quote a bunch of long, obscure articles to substitute for an actual opinion of your own, right?

P.S. While self aggrandizing, you should've paid enough attention to spell pummeled correctly. Now you can say I've used a straw man argument.

If only the Anasazi could have built Hoover Dam...they might still be here today. [Us kililng them for their land not withstanding.]

I've left Arizona before and came back. My first ex-wife was from California. I made a choice to live here rather than CA then, and still do now. I lived and worked in Las Vegas for a while. I came back. My reasons (obviously) aren't all based on natural disasters - but now that I own my condo here [long story about that, but that's for another day] it's something I'm certainly MUCH more concerned about.

As close as we come to natural disasters here in Phoenix is the occassional flash-flood; mostly because the city isn't built for rain. We're in a valley, mostly sheltered from everything except our own pollution. Eventually one of the faults near here will move, and I'll be in trouble - but for the time being, I think I'm about as safe from natural disaster as any "major" US city.

Your answer to anything seems to be complete communism. Well, Arizona needs water, so don't bitch when you have to pay for Hurricane relief.

I've made choices in my life that minimize my need to depend on others; and I'm happy to help others in need -- just as long as they don't abuse it. Lousiania isn't Florida - I'll give you that - but there are people who've rebuilt their houses in a hurricane path more than once, and I pay for it.

By definition, you're the one pulling out straw man here by focusing on things like the insurance on my house and the water pipes in Arizona, while avoiding the whole point.
I think if I listen close enough... I can hear you getting dumber. You are the one who doesnt get the point. Palimaxs gripe WAS about premiums on insurance. (But even that wouldnt matter because flood insurance is a federal program and we all pay for it, no matter where you live). My counter point was that there is no place that is "safe" and an arguement can be made against living almost anywhere after a disaster strikes at that location. The last major problem New Orleans had with a Hurricane was 1963. The greater point is that we live in a time when the climate, for whatever reason, is shifting. The earth is getting warmer. These shifts are probably natural to the planet and it is debatable if man has an impact on causing this change. However, a result of this is that because of a very slight shift in the temperture of the oceans, Hurricanes are MUCH more prevalent than any time the history of this country.
Additional factors that are beyond the control of the people who live there exasperate the situation.
But the reality is that people dont have the luxury of deciding where to live most of the time. Roots, jobs, economics can pretty effectively make that decision for most people. Does that mean these people dont deserve insurance? Does that mean they were asking for the catastrophe to happen?



If you think the majority of people in New Orleans live in a house with picket fences and are fully insured, you're very mistaken,
I could care less what their home looks like. If they own it, they almost definitly have insurance. If they rent, the landlord has insurance, by law. If they live in a flood basin they are required BY LAW to purchase flood insurance from the government. They do not have a choice. Landowners MUST buy it.

and Palimax made it clear enough that you overstated the water subsidy in Arizona. That's not even the point though.
It is the point. The point being he lives in an area prone to horrific drought. While in ideal conditions, there is no problem, but there is a very real potential for catastrophe. Same as New Orleans. under ideal conditions, NO is wonderful place.

The point is that comparing Palimax's choice to live in Arizona to someone's choice to live in a basin next to an active hurricane region, is completely off kilter.
Do not ask for whom the bell tolls it tolls for thee. Arizonas potential for disaster is just as great as New Orleans. Factors beyond the control of people living there have dramatically increased the risk over a fairly short time.

Trying to claim Arizona is even remotely comparable is silly like a thirteen year old girl at a Backstreet Boys concert.
is that supposed to make sense?

This is about the time where you either post a screenshot you copied off FoH or quote a bunch of long, obscure articles to substitute for an actual opinion of your own, right?
No, actually this is point where you move part of the thread to the sandbox because you are too big of a pussy to debate.

While self aggrandizing, you should've paid enough attention to spell pummeled correctly. Now you can say I've used a straw man argument.
You forgot your hyphen in Self-Aggrandizing

For a number of years I worked as a Catastrophe Insurance Adjuster and traveled all over the country... from coast to coast and most places in between.

I handled losses in California where people lost their home and all they owned to a huge fire. I have handled losses in Florida after Hurricane Andrew where people lost all they owned to a hurricane. I have handled losses due to tornadoes in the Midwest, hail (hailstones as large as melons) storms in the north central states, damage due to rioting and other insurrection.

I was in California for the Northridge quake, I was in North and South Carolina for Hurricane Hugo, I was in the northeast after the "Storm of the Century", I went to Florida after Hurricane Andrew, and worked in Oklahoma City after the Murrah Building bombing.

What this comes down to is this.... no matter WHERE you live, there is always something that can and will happen. It's a matter of time.

Whether it's environmental shifting due to global warming or certain members of the AyRo forums board with a severe case of flatulence... it still comes down to people living anywhere can be a victim of a natural disaster.

As L2 pointed out... those people who live in designated flood plains/basins are REQUIRED to have federally subsidized flood insurance. If they own the home and there is no mortgage company, they can choose not to have the insurance. Otherwise they are required to have flood insurance by their mortgage companies.

Many of the major insurers are the handling agents for the federal flood insurance program... companies like Allstate, Farmers Insurance Group, AutoOwners, Prudential, State Farm and many others provide the flood insurance and are then reimbursed by the government for their expenses... the actual damages paid out and cost of handling the claim.

The comment was made that those people should shoulder a bigger portion of the burden. They do... Check out homeowner's insurance rates in Florida as opposed to Colorado... or California as opposed to Texas. Each area has its own risks and those are calculated into the cost of their homeowners insurance. Flood insurance is simply a program that the government instituted to help the people of this country, no matter how much or how little they make.

There are areas in my home state (Oklahoma) that are federally designated flood plains/areas. Do we have very many hurricanes here? No... but like Arizona, we do have flash flooding and when we get heavy rain, the water can sit for days in low lying areas.

We ALL pay for this... it's part of being able to live in this country, it's part of the price we pay. It doesn't matter where you live, there is something that can and probably will happen in your area sooner or later.

Frankly, I'm more steamed about gas prices than I am the cost of the efforts in New Orleans. But that's for another nag thread.

I could care less what their home looks like. If they own it, they almost definitly have insurance. If they rent, the landlord has insurance, by law. If they live in a flood basin they are required BY LAW to purchase flood insurance from the government. They do not have a choice. Landowners MUST buy it.


Actually WorldNews tonight had several people on that stated they did not have insurance period and would be rebuilding paycheck to paycheck. I tend to agree about the flood insurance but areas of Wisconsin that flood out near some of our large rivers in the spring time..will no longer insure the people who want to live their. Its basically do it at your own "risk"..and they do and every spring when we get a huge thaw, toss in some heavy rains..then often a freeze..people had 3 feet of frozen water in their house...crying on TV about it.

Same set of folks keep rebuilding on the mudslopes of CA.

Fandros

Palimaxs gripe WAS about premiums on insurance.My gripe wasn't about insurance. I mentioned it in later posts. My gripe was that these people are going to rebuild in a place that's at higher risk than the average for natural disaster.

Your argument now seems to be "Well, it's dangerous ANYWHERE, so nyah!"

Mounting out presently to go aid my fellow Seabees in Gulfport and their friends and families along the Gulf Coast during their time of need. The NOW is where the pain suffering lies. Hopefully this debate is over before I get home.

You risk your life every time you drive anyways, so you might as well do it at 115 mph in a car without airbags or brakes. Duh.

Quote salad
As Palimax pointed out, you still haven't even grasped the main premise of what we've been talking about the entire thread. Seriously, do I have to post single sentences from now on, so you can manage to keep it together long enough to stick with us?

The damages are already estimated at 35 billion dollars, and the insurance liability between 17 and 25 billion (for all the mandatory insurance you've been talking about, that's a gigantic gap isn't it?). However the breakdown of liability ends up, the fact is that a significant amount of that could've been avoided.

No disaster that's ever happened in Georgia has cost anywhere near that much, since when it was razed. Like Palimax has pointed out over and over again, some of us simply choose not to live right in the path of disaster and then hold out our hand when the inevitable happens. You can spin off whatever side arguments you want, to cloud the issue, but that fundamental fact still remains.

Sure, the current situation is a reality of living in a large, geographically disparate country, but where do you draw the line between compassion and subsidizing recklessness?

P.P.S. L2, you can talk to me about being afraid to debate you as soon as you post a reply on that outsourcing thread you tried to call me out on and then ran away from when I posted. Weak.

This isn't about recklessness, personal accountability is really the crux of this argument. If we choose to do something risky, be prepared that it will cost us more than the safer choice. Also, that one's choices should not become an excessive burden on others.

The federal government and the private sector both subsidize individual freedoms in as balanced a way as possible. The end result of this liberty is that governmental monies (your money and mine) will enforce our freedoms and provide for our pursuit of happiness along coast lines, fault lines,...and that private corporations (insurance carriers) may capitalize on the opportunities presented.

For as long as the French Quarter sponsors 'MTV Spring Break' and the river casinos shuffle up and deal...we need to understand the high price of high risk. And with that, accept that the displaced alligators in our flooded yard just come with the territory. Thank God we have mandated insurance with obscene premiums to help hedge our bets.

Oh, Flashcube, there's still room in the Libertarian Party (http://www.lp.org/) for you.

I bet. :p
Show me a Lib who's ready to prepare us for our legislative high-risk natural disasters, such as Medicare and Social Security... with fiscal leadership, credibility, and a canoe paddling the streets of Mobile, AL. If that Lib is also praying with/comforting frightened families, I'll sit in the Lib pew right next to you.

Right now, Alabama's got prolonged power outages statewide. They need more shirt-sleeves, and less cuff links. The balance of personal accountability.

Wouldn't it be nice for once some other country offers up some help..like bodys at the very least? I don't see anyone offering up help..or at least the media surely isn't putting that information out. With our Guard spread thin ..bet they could use some help.

*Martial law has been declared in the New Orleans area.

*According to New Orleans Mayor Nagin, a miscommunication ("too many cooks") resulted in the abandoment of attempted levy repairs, setting back long-term reconstruction by "another four weeks as a result of this." There seem to be two levy breaches now, and it's expected that the entire city will be underwater by evening. The Army Corps of Engineers is assessing the damage.

*There are reports that a prison has been taken over by rioting inmates, and that guards (including a guard's family who took shelter at the prison) are being held hostage.

*There are an estimated 10-20,000 people in the Superdome without power, air conditioning, drinkable water or sewer service. I've read of one suicide there. Mayor Nagin is hoping to evacuate them all, but not sure of any time table.

More State-by-State date from the NYT
LOUISIANA (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/louisiana/index.html?inline=nyt-geo):

--An estimated 80 percent of New Orleans was under water, up to 20 feet deep in places, with miles and miles of homes swamped.

--Breaches in at least two levees allowed water from Lake Pontchartrain to inundate sections of New Orleans.

--The Coast Guard said it has rescued 1,200 people by boat and air. New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said hundreds, if not thousands, of people may still be stuck on roofs and in attics.

--Unknown number of deaths.

--At least 370,000 customers estimated without power in southeast Louisiana; number expected to rise. New Orleans water unsafe to drink without boiling.

--Entire city of New Orleans, city of 485,000, ordered evacuated before storm struck. Mayor estimated 80 percent of the city's residents fled.

--Thousands to be evacuated from the Louisiana Superdome over the next few days as floodwaters rise.

--New Orleans police made several arrests for looting. About 120 armed National Guardsmen were assigned to the French Quarter.

MISSISSIPPI (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/mississippi/index.html?inline=nyt-geo):

--Deaths: At least 100 in Harrison County, home to Biloxi and Gulfport.

--At least 900,000 customers statewide without power, utilities said.

--Many casinos that dot the coast were damaged or destroyed. Emergency officials had reports of water reaching the third floors of some of the barge-mounted casinos.

--More than 1,600 Mississippi National Guardsmen activated.

--Storm swept sailboats onto city streets in Gulfport and obliterated hundreds of waterfront homes, businesses, community landmarks and condominiums.

--A foot of water swamped the emergency operations center at Hancock County courthouse -- which sits 30 feet above sea level -- and the back of the courthouse collapsed.

ALABAMA (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/alabama/index.html?inline=nyt-geo):

--Deaths: Two.

--About 718,000 homes and businesses without power.

--Flooding reached 11 feet in Mobile, matching record set in 1917, according to National Weather Service. Water up to roofs of cars in downtown Mobile and bayou communities. Piers ransacked and grand homes flooded along Eastern Shore of Mobile Bay.

--Major bridge over the Mobile River remained closed; it was struck by an oil drilling platform that floated away from a shipyard.

GEORGIA (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/georgia/index.html?inline=nyt-geo):

--Deaths: At least two as the remnants of Katrina sliced through the state, spawning tornados. Multiple injuries and dozens of buildings leveled.

FLORIDA (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/florida/index.html?inline=nyt-geo):

--Deaths: 11, according to state tally on South Florida strike last week.

--38,000 customers without power late Tuesday in the Panhandle, hit by eastern edge of storm Monday. In South Florida, 136,300 customers still without power Tuesday.

WASHINGTON, D.C.:

--President Bush will cut short his Texas (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/texas/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) vacation to return to Washington on Wednesday, two days earlier than planned.

--The Federal Emergency Management Agency sent medical teams, rescue squads and groups prepared to supply food and water into the disaster areas.

--The Navy sent four ships to the Gulf Coast with water and other supplies.

VIRGINIA:

--The remnants of Hurricane Katrina spawned scattered rains and a potential tornado that damaged 13 homes in the small Ada community near Marshall.

OIL MARKETS:

--Energy prices hit new highs, with crude futures briefly topping $70 a barrel and wholesale gasoline costs surging to levels that could lead to $3 a gallon at the pump in some markets.

--Oil and gas companies surveyed the Gulf of Mexico, finding oil rigs as far as 17 miles from their original locations and water where drilling infrastructure once stood.

What aggravates the fuck out of me are all the people in the area (news crews, looters, whatever) who aren't stepping up to help out.

Before anyone asks, I can't go help directly, but I'll pitch in to the Red Cross using the link provided.

However, a result of this is that because of a very slight shift in the temperture of the oceans, Hurricanes are MUCH more prevalent than any time the history of this country.

I don't think they are more numerous than any point in our history. There seems to be a period over 100 years ago that had just as many hurricanes.

I've read in National Geographic and talked to some people from Florida who have said that we've was a period of about 35 or years or so of very few hurricanes that ended in the 90s.

Now the cycle is swinging back to the heavy side with vigor. Factor in some evidence that hurricanes are getting stronger due to global warming and the fact that in the past few dacades coastal development took off in a huge way, so there is more property to get damaged in areas like Florida.

Any way you look at it, what happened down there sucks.

About 25,000 (http://www.wwltv.com/sharedcontent/nationworld/katrina/stories/083105ccwcKatrinaAstrodomerefuge.101134c3.html) refugees, most of them from the Superdome, will be bussed to Houston's Astrodome, which is no longer used for pro sporting events.

BTW, new bankruptcy law goes into effect in October, likely to exacerbate the economic impact upon the people caught up in this mess.

Gas in Washington, DC was at $3.32 yesterday. It jumped over 50 cents in one day.

My girlfriend and her mother and I are going to start packing up and head down that way to do what we can. If anyone has anyone they'd like us to visit or look, we'll certainly do our best to try. This has been crossposted on the wow forum and craigslist, I'd suggest replying on craigslist if you are familiar seems like thousands are doing the same thing.

I'll be taking a satelite phone and my laptop on the trip.

I chatted on the phone with Rengised and Alpen yesterday (some may know, some may not it's been awhile since they played). They live a few hours north of NO up near Shreeveport (sp). The damage was quite miniscule there however they told me they had several hundred thousand refugees and that the gas was.....gone. None in the whole city. Basic everyday supplies are dwindling b/c of the influx of people and the power is on the fritz. They can't call out but people can call in, if you can understand what's being said over the static on the line. They are going to volunteer at the Civic Center which is housing a large number of refugees.

This is just amazing. Yeah people do dumb things, yeah some people might deserve what they get. But is this really the time to say such things? I mean are you going to tell me that a 5yr old who died b/c of this is to blame b/c he lives in this area? Or what about the child who will not have a home b/c their parents couldn't afford the flood insurance? It's easy when stand waaaaay back here and point the self righteous finger saying people are stupid and dumb and how it's hitting our pocket. I don't like it either, it sucks, but it happened. I'm sure some of those people had the notion that it was their home, and that's all they knew, even with the risks they still stayed there. They all have their reasons, just like we have ours for where we live.

Good luck Lummus on your mission.

Fildien, no, it's the time for us to help. I gave blood this week, like I always do, and made an additional donation (beyond what I give regularly though work to my "generic" charity) to the Red Cross (https://secure2.convio.net/arc/site/Donation?ACTION=SHOW_DONATION_OPTIONS&CAMPAIGN_ID=1161) specifically for this disaster (althgouh they probably pool their funds, who knows...)

...but it doesn't mean it's not worthy of a discussion about personal responsibilities. I don't buy into the "now isn't the time" thing. Now's a GREAT time.

Interesting article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/29/AR2005082901445_pf.html) on FEMA:

SEATTLE -- In the days to come, as the nation and the people along the Gulf Coast work to cope with the disastrous aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, we will be reminded anew, how important it is to have a federal agency capable of dealing with natural catastrophes of this sort. This is an immense human tragedy, one that will work hardship on millions of people. It is beyond the capabilities of state and local government to deal with. It requires a national response.

Which makes it all the more difficult to understand why, at this moment, the country's premier agency for dealing with such events -- FEMA -- is being, in effect, systematically downgraded and all but dismantled by the Department of Homeland Security.

Apparently homeland security now consists almost entirely of protection against terrorist acts. How else to explain why the Federal Emergency Management Agency will no longer be responsible for disaster preparedness? Given our country's long record of natural disasters, how much sense does this make?

What follows is an obituary for what was once considered the preeminent example of a federal agency doing good for the American public in times of trouble, such as the present.

FEMA was born in 1979, the offspring of a number of federal agencies that had been functioning in an independent and uncoordinated manner to protect the country against natural disasters and nuclear holocaust. In its early years FEMA grew and matured, with formal programs being developed to respond to large-scale disasters and with extensive planning for what is called "continuity of government."

The creation of the federal agency encouraged states, counties and cities to convert from their civil defense organizations and also to establish emergency management agencies to do the requisite planning for disasters. Over time, a philosophy of "all-hazards disaster preparedness" was developed that sought to conserve resources by producing single plans that were applicable to many types of events.

But it was Hurricane Andrew, which hit Florida in 1992, that really energized FEMA. The year after that catastrophic storm, President Bill Clinton appointed James Lee Witt to be director of the agency. Witt was the first professional emergency manager to run the agency. Showing a serious regard for the cost of natural disasters in both economic impact and lives lost or disrupted, Witt reoriented FEMA from civil defense preparations to a focus on natural disaster preparedness and disaster mitigation. In an effort to reduce the repeated loss of property and lives every time a disaster struck, he started a disaster mitigation effort called "Project Impact." FEMA was elevated to a Cabinet-level agency, in recognition of its important responsibilities coordinating efforts across departmental and governmental lines.

Witt fought for federal funding to support the new program. At its height, only $20 million was allocated to the national effort, but it worked wonders. One of the best examples of the impact the program had here in the central Puget Sound area and in western Washington state was in protecting people at the time of the Nisqually earthquake on Feb. 28, 2001. Homes had been retrofitted for earthquakes and schools were protected from high-impact structural hazards. Those involved with Project Impact thought it ironic that the day of that quake was also the day that the then-new president chose to announce that Project Impact would be discontinued.

Indeed, the advent of the Bush administration in January 2001 signaled the beginning of the end for FEMA. The newly appointed leadership of the agency showed little interest in its work or in the missions pursued by the departed Witt. Then came the Sept. 11 attacks and the creation of the Department of Homeland Security. Soon FEMA was being absorbed into the "homeland security borg."

This year it was announced that FEMA is to "officially" lose the disaster preparedness function that it has had since its creation. The move is a death blow to an agency that was already on life support. In fact, FEMA employees have been directed not to become involved in disaster preparedness functions, since a new directorate (yet to be established) will have that mission.

FEMA will be survived by state and local emergency management offices, which are confused about how they fit into the national picture. That's because the focus of the national effort remains terrorism, even if the Department of Homeland Security still talks about "all-hazards preparedness." Those of us in the business of dealing with emergencies find ourselves with no national leadership and no mentors. We are being forced to fend for ourselves, making do with the "homeland security" mission. Our "all-hazards" approaches have been decimated by the administration's preoccupation with terrorism.

To be sure, America may well be hit by another major terrorist attack, and we must be prepared for such an event. But I can guarantee you that hurricanes like the one that ripped into Louisiana and Mississippi yesterday, along with tornadoes, earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, floods, windstorms, mudslides, power outages, fires and perhaps a pandemic flu will have to be dealt with on a weekly and daily basis throughout this country. They are coming for sure, sooner or later, even as we are, to an unconscionable degree, weakening our ability to respond to them.

The writer is director of the King County, Wash., Office of Emergency Management.

Also (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/nationalspecial/31cnd-oil.html?ei=5094&en=f79ead3a12eb1045&hp=&ex=1125547200&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print), Looks like the Strategic Petroleum Reserve will release oil to keep refineries supplied (this at the request of an unnamed oil refiner).

Probably a good idea, though I doubt it will ease prices at the pump (up .44/gallon here in Raleigh, to $2.99).

In Jared Diamonds book "Collapse" he basically does a post mortem on societies that have collapsed and the reasons why. From the Easter Island civilizations, to the South American societies, to the Norse in Greenland to modern day examples, like Rwanda. It even uses the example of the state of Montana as a failed society.

One of the main reasons for the collapse of so many of these societies is the change in environment of societies due to climate change and mismangement of resources (either the overuse of a resource or the ancillary neglect of a resource leading to deforestation, (or deforestation by proxie leading to the removal of older, larger trees that act as a fire barrier). Additional factors include overpopulation and other things like external effects such as diplomatic relations.
Usually it wasnt 1 thing, it was a number of these things acting in conjunction that would produce a catastrophic event that would kill a society. Often times people blame things like floods, or earthquakes, or invasions that kill societies, but in reality it is the priminary factors that set the stage for a catastrophic event that kills the society that are the ACTUAL culprit.
Anyway, not to get too deep into the book.
My point is this: Imagine that the Gulf Coast states werent part of the United States, but were an independant nation. (Civil War gone different). This Hurricane would be a civilization killer. The mass exodus of people from the largest population center in the surrounding area would create disruption and resentment. The scale of the disaster would overwhelm the government and would invariably lead to disease, famine, violence and chaos. Basically every vision of hell and doomsday from every culture, because almost all have a history that has this happening. This is the pattern that has happened over and over again.

We are fortunate to not live in a time when this can happen. This is because SOCIETY has evolved and developed to the point where there is a larger support structure that prevents this apocolyptic scenario from unfolding. To talk about personal responsibility steming from where people live is ridiculous. Maybe you have better case if you are talking about the people who leave other areas of the country to move to places like the Gulf coast, I dont agree, but the case is better than if you make this claim on people whose entire family and history is from that area. To say so easily that people "choose" to live there is myopic.

The reality is that the Hurricanes plaguing the Gulf Coast are increasing in intensity and frequency as a result of the slight warming of the Earths Oceans. How do we cope with this problem, how do we cope with other climate changing effects that will occur in our lifetimes. Palimax seems to thing that the solution is a mass exodus from these areas. I disagree. I think the solution is for our society to come together to support and rebuild, but to learn lessons from what has happened and rebuild better, smarter. To use our environment in more sound way that better protects us rather than increasingly exposes us. But that is long term. In the short term, our personal responsibility requires us to do our societal duty and help these people in anyway we can... because soon enough, they may be needed to help us.

The reality is that the Hurricanes plaguing the Gulf Coast are increasing in intensity and frequency as a result of the slight warming of the Earths Oceans.
Whoa, thank you Dr. Global Warming!
Palimax seems to thing (sic) that the solution is a mass exodus from these areas.
No. I don't think that at all. I think that part of the solution is in not building oceanside, hillside, and sagebrush-surrounded houses unless you can afford to rebuild them when the likely event that they're destroyed happens.

It is likely that your house will be hit by severe weather if you're on the southeast cost of the US. While inevitable that every other place on earth will eventually succumb to natural disaster, it isn't a likely consquence of your actions once a year.

The people whose houses are flooded because the entire system that supports the city failed - I feel badly for them. They didn't rebuild their glass house next to the rock throwing machine. I gave my time, money, and blood to help them.

Im no fan of the guy by any means. But when even HE is admitting it, and it is not an easy admission politically... you have to take notice

FIVE YEARS into his presidency, George W. Bush recently acknowledged the reality of global warming for the first time. “I recognize that the surface of the Earth is warmer and that an increase in greenhouse gases caused by humans is contributing to the problem,” Bush said.

combine that knowledge with

http://drake.marin.k12.ca.us/stuwork/rockwater/Hurricanes/howhurricanesform.html

If the surface of the earth (which is 70% water) is being heated, then it is elementary that the temperature of water is higher. That will result in a greater frequency of hurricanes forming... but not just that.. hotter water means that Hurricanes will be bigger as they are able to gain more energy from the water before hitting land.

What i don't understand are the people on the news that are crying about all the things they lost when they should be thankful that they are still alive.You can replaces things, but you can't replace a life once it's gone.
Katrina could have been ALOT worse than it was imho. It could have hit New Orleans dead center and totally destroyed the city rather than sideswiping it/ flooding it. Look at the places where it DID hit dead center to see what i mean.
I live about 20 miles from where the eyes of Hurricanes Jean and Francis hit last year so i have been through a similar situation, albeit not as catastrophic as Katrina was. (been like my 4th hurricane so far i've gone through...)
For all the people who can't or couldn't afford to leave or rebuild, who make minimum wage and can't really help the situation they are in, i'll do my utmost to help out with what i can and when i can.
But for those in expensive or multi-million dollar homes who build them on the sides of hills, flood basins, in fire prone areas, or on known fault lines, or beneath that supposedly extinct volcano, then imho your on your own because you knew coming in what to expect yet decided to take the risk.
Just my 2 cents...:bdiamond

Mounting out presently to go aid my fellow Seabees in Gulfport Just as long as you let the Army drive, y'all Seabees could flip a parked car just sitting in it :p


Seriously though, New Orleans =\= a place HUrricanes normally hit dead on like this, so I can understand the devastation and surprise at it. But FFS the people who leave on beach front property in southern Florida, that act surprised every year when they have to board up their windows and tie down their dog because of Tropical Storms and hurricanes, helloooooo if it happened last year, and the year before, and the year before that, it's a good chance it's going to happen again this year... Move, or quit bitching.

The media's global warming ties to hurricane patterns is sensationalism at it's best. Most experts in the field agree that we've multi-decade cycles of hurricane activity for as long as weather was recorded, and that the past few seasons are nothing out of the ordinary. The intensity may be slightly increased by warmer temperatures, but that factor is a minor one in comparison to many other factors anyway (like the high pressure system that saved NO a direct hit).

We just have more and more people flocking to shack up right in the path, as time goes on. So, the results when a hurricane strikes their dense population is becoming ever more powerful.

The clouds get in the way, but this is a satellite photo before and after:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=17018

I'm sure they'll proudly rebuild it right in the same spot, but it doesn't take an engineer or meteorologist to see that it's inevitable that the same thing will happen again. Maybe next month, maybe in twenty years.

The media's global warming ties to hurricane patterns is sensationalism at it's best
Eh?
http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~tk/glob_warm_hurr.html

But you are right in saying that Hurricanes work in multi-decadal patterns, .
from http://www.cpc.noaa.gov/products/outlooks/hurricane.html
Beginning with 1995 all of the Atlantic hurricane seasons have been above normal, with the exception of two El Niño years (1997 and 2002). This contrasts sharply with the generally below-normal activity observed during the previous 25-year period 1970-1994 (Goldenberg et al. 2001, Science). Time series of key atmospheric wind parameters and Atlantic SSTs highlight the dramatic differences between these above-normal and below-normal periods. Conditions were also very conducive for above-normal hurricane seasons during the 1950s and 1960s, as seen by comparing Atlantic SSTs and seasonal ACE values.

Hurricane seasons during 1995-2004 have averaged 13.6 tropical storms, 7.8 hurricanes, 3.8 major hurricanes, and with an average ACE index of 159% of the median. NOAA classifies all but two of these ten seasons (El Niño years of 1997 and 2002) as above normal, and six of these years as hyperactive. If the 2005 season verifies as predicted, it will be the seventh hyperactive season in the last 11 years. In contrast, during the preceding 1970-1994 period, hurricane seasons averaged 9 tropical storms, 5 hurricanes, and 1.5 major hurricanes, with an average ACE index of only 75% of the median. NOAA classifies twelve (almost one-half) of these 25 seasons as being below normal, only three as being above normal (1980, 1988, 1988), and none as being hyperactive.

The 1995 through 1999 seasons inclusive have been the five most active in the > 100-year quantitative climatology. Historically, hurricane landfalls on the U.S. east coast were common during the 1940s through the mid 1960s. In the 1970s and 1980s, landfalls were few. Now activity appears to have returned to the high level that characterized the immediate post-World War II period. These fluctuations in activity are most pronounced for major hurricanes. They also correlate with the observed "North Atlantic Mode", a coherent, multidecadal fluctuation of global sea-surface temperatures. During the active portion of the long-term record, Atlantic Sea-Surface Temperature (SST) anomalies in tropics and high latitudes were warm, and conversely. If the hurricane climatology and the Multi-Decadal Mode prove to be reliable guides, we may expect the first decade or two of the 21st Century to produce as many of the most damaging major hurricanes annually as the last 5 years have.

however, the impact on "unnatural" warming may propel the severity of hurricanes beyond the normal boundries. We are on the upswing into a hyperactive era of hurricane activity. This is the established pattern for catastrophic events, natural swings of climate compounded by disruptions in the environment that cause civilizations to collapse.

I'll look up the articles I've seen about global warming having nearly no impact on the hurricanes. I think the best one was from the Colorado State Meteorological Dept, but it's been a few weeks.

Here in Georgia, we're working on a full blown gas crisis due to the issues in the Gulf. A lot of the stations are out of gas, and the ones with gas have 70's style lines. Something about our main supply pipelines being down and our clean air requirements not allowing the stations to sell gas intended for other states nearby.

I'm assuming it's limited to Georgia, but is anyone else seeing more serious issues than just high prices after the storm?

Most of the eastern states are supplied via pipelines that ran out of Gulfport and Mobil, IIRC, and the pumping stations are without power for the forseeable near future.

My son was saying his science teacher believes our current swing in weather cycles world wide is also influenced by solar storm cycles.

No proof, just throwing it up.

Fandros

Yeah, solar cycles definitely contribute to our weather. There's no way you can really refute that, but I still don't think it has a significant effect on what's going on right now. It could possibly be one of many contributing factors, but the variations aren't typically large enough to fuck with us that much. Solar cycles occur over periods of about 11 years (it varies, could be 9, could be 13, etc) where the sun hops between a period of maximum solar output and minimum solar output. The change is usually something around 0.15% or so, which is a lot more significant than it might sound, but still not enough to cause this climate swing all by itself; with a few exceptions, the cycles have been happening regularly for millions and millions of years.

The storms I'm not too sure about. The magnetic cycle of the sun is something like 20 years, and that can have an effect on the frequency of CME's (as well as the location of such outbursts). There's a very strong association between CME's that pass our way and disruptions in earth's magnetosphere, but I think it's pretty short-lived. Unless we were repeatedly being hit by these things (which is pretty unlikely, when you consider the size of the sun's surface), I don't see how it could have a long-term effect on climate.

Here's some more links to aide organizations. Taken from the SoE EQ2 boards.


As victims of Hurricane Katrina recover from the storm, they need our help. If you are willing and able to help in the form of a donation or volunteer work, please see one of these sites:
American Red Cross (http://www.redcross.org/)

Operation Blessing (http://www.ob.org/)

America’s Second Harvest (http://www.secondharvest.org/)

Adventist Community Services (http://www.adventist.communityservices.org/)

Catholic Charities, USA (http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/)

Christian Disaster Response (http://www.cdresponse.org/)

Christian Reformed World Relief Committee (http://www.crwrc.org/)

Church World Service (http://www.churchworldservice.org/)

Convoy of Hope (http://www.convoyofhope.org/)

Corporation for National and Community Service Disaster Relief Fund (http://www.nationalservice.gov/about/donations/index.asp)

Lutheran Disaster Response (http://www.lwr.org/)

Mennonite Disaster Service (http://www.mds.mennonite.net/)

Nazarene Disaster Response (http://www.nazarenedisasterresponse.org/)

Presbyterian Disaster Assistance (http://www.pcusa.org/pda/)

Salvation Army (http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/)

Southern Baptist Convention -- Disaster Relief (http://www.namb.net/dr/)

United Jewish Communities (http://www.ujc.org/)

United Methodist Committee on Relief (http://www.methodistrelief.org/)



Note: Other sites will be added as they are verified to be legitimate relief efforts. Many links have been obtained from the Federal Emergency Management Agency (http://www.fema.gov/press/2005/resources_katrina.shtm#donate).



Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder

Global warming? Come on. It is crap like this that irks me. Here we have a disaster that is of historic magnitude, and crap like this surfaces. http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20050829/cm_huffpost/006396


If Global Warming is the cause, then explain this in terms of Global Warming effects the intensity of a hurricane,,, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167305,00.html

I will even go so far as to say that all these "global Warming" experts need a way to keep getting funding, so they will come up with all kinds of dooms-day ideas. I am willing to bet that one volcanic eruption spews more "gases" into the air then any amount of pollution that we introduce.

It does bother me that a majority of our gas refineries are down in such a disaster area.

Exactly.

Volcanoes put out a ridiculous amount of CO2. Many earthquakes also.

On top of that, ice core research has suggested that CO2 levels rise after temperature changes, as a result (heat + ocean = CO2) of the warming and not a cause.

The same ice core research shows periods of sharp temperature and CO2 increases (followed by slight global cooling) thousands of years ago. Unless the Vikings had outboard engines on those ships, the link between man and the increases seems tenuous at best.

More likely, there's a cyclical pattern of warming and cooling much more powerful than anything we contribute either way. All in all, it's blown completely out of proportion.

This is an interesting site about some of the facts. Like anything slanted to one side, I'd take it with a grain of salt, but their advisory board is clearly not a bunch of quacks.

http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?ide=2

Its all the added black top highways thats reflecting the suns heat and melting our polar ice caps!!!

I don't buy into global warming ..considering they show that some of the polar ice caps are shrinking ...while others are getting bigger.

I went to fill my gas tank last night 10pm-ish, Phoenix metro area, and several of the pumps were already closed. I stopped at three 'empty' stations before finding reasonable traffic and pricing at gas station number four. The attendant at the gas station said that they were already receiving calls that the Labor Day weekend will be plagued with gas shortages and price 'increases.'

In the city of Tempe, also Phoenix metro, they were lining up- over half a mile back at some pumps. Some of the Tempe location pumps were already tapped out as well.

We feel it out in the West, too. Cheap 'ol Unleaded- good price: $2.85...

What a mess.

I know that New Orleans will be rebuilt but sometimes I've got to wonder how smart that would be, given the geography of the city. With predictions of increasing hurricane activity in the coming years, how many more times will that area get hit in the next decade? Are we going to be facing this over and over again? It is going to require some truly impressive engineering and wetlands management to make New Orleans safer.

Regarding global warming: My understanding is that there is strong evidence of a natural cycle of warming and cooling that takes place over many thousands of years. According to the cycle, we are approaching another warming period regardless of what humans do or don't do. The question is really if human activity is speeding up the next cycle's arrival before it would otherwise come. There is evidence that is the case, but people need to remember its going to happen regardless of what we do at some point, just as another ice age is inevitable at some time in the future. We are going to need to adapt in one way or another. On the bright side, our technology has advanced to the point where more of us should be able to adapt and survive when the inevitable changes come.

My sympathies go out to those who have lost family and property. I'll be donating what I can.

My gf left for work at 6am today and called me at 6:30 to tell me she was at the pump and watched the gas station raise the price $.40 while she was pumping gas!!! So I grabbed my mom and we drove 8 miles to fill up our tanks at $2.79 a gallon instead of the $3.00-$3.09 that was close to my house. EEEEEK!!!!

Little energy update:
The news is starting to trickle in on damage caused by Katrina. As this occurs, prices on the NYMEX (crude oil, heating oil, natural gas, and gasoline) will start to react. It should be noted that the majority of trading on the NYMEX is not currently being done by commercial players because your larger producers aren’t trading as they assess their facilities. Instead, the speculators and hedge funds have the majority of control over the NYMEX, and over price direction. As they have done in the past, the speculators are looking for a quick profit, and Katrina has provided the perfect opportunity.
According to the Minerals Management Service, about 95% of the Gulf of Mexico oil production remains shut in and 89% of the U.S. Gulf gas production remains shut in. As damage is assessed, oil and natural gas production will come back on-line where it can safely. Assessing damage isn’t always a speedy process because many of these areas do not have electricity.
At this point, there are some rigs afloat in the Gulf, but the government has hinted that Katrina may have struck a more severe blow to refineries than actual production. The Department of Administration stated, “Unlike Hurricane Ivan, which was a major hurricane that affected oil facilities last September and had a more lasting impact on crude oil production in the Gulf of Mexico, it appears that Hurricane Katrina may have a more lasting impact on refinery production and the distribution system.” There are nine refineries in southeast Louisiana and Mississippi that remain shut in. There is a lot of attention now being paid to gasoline stocks, which were already at a 21-month low prior to Katrina. Some analysts now warn that even if oil and natural gas production doesn’t experience significant damage from Katrina, the lack of gasoline stocks will become the price leader for both crude oil and natural gas – this would certainly be a new twist to the energy industry.
There have been several developments in the past day:
* President Bush announced that the Administration will loan oil from the nation’s Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR) to at least one U.S. refinery as the Lake Charles, LA, refinery resumes operations today. The Lake Charles refinery didn’t have any damage, and there are three other refineries with requests into the Administration to also receive loans from the SPR. This was also done in 2004 for Hurricane Ivan for 5 refineries.
* The Louisiana Offshore Oil Port regained power at St. James, LA. This is a significant port as it imports foreign crude oil deliveries and takes it to refineries. It can also export oil if necessary.
* The Bush Administration has invoked a waiver of the EPA Clean Air Standards.
* While damage to production rigs is always a concern, damage to underwater pipelines is even a greater issue because of the time it can take to repair. NiSource has announced that it has found no significant damage to its underwater Columbia Gulf pipeline system, but it isn’t yet operational. In addition, natural gas is starting to flow again from three other underwater natural gas pipelines in the Gulf, which withstood the storm.
* Kerr-McGee, Swift Energy, and Forest Oil say their production areas are in tact and are working on restarting productions. It is estimated that 117 rigs had to weather the storm – 48 incurred winds in excess of 74 miles per hour and 69 experienced winds of between 36 to 74 mph. Initial reports aren’t showing much, if any, damage to the 69 that weren’t in the direct path of Katrina. Of the 48 that were in the direct path, reports so far show that there are about 5 rigs that are lost or are afloat, but there are several others that have indicated that their facilities didn’t sustain any damage. Damage reports will continue to come in over the next week.
Right now, the October natural gas NYMEX price is around $11.50 per dekatherm and the October crude oil NYMEX price is around $69 per barrel. The EIA storage report will be released today, but the benefit that would have been expected from a strong storage injection will likely be overshadowed by anxiety in the marketplace as it relates to Katrina damage.
So, until more damage reports come in, there is no way to determine price direction.

Valerie K. WoodEnergy Solutions, Inc.

wow..
account from another board.

First off I wanted to post what REALLY is going on in this city. Please don't get this thread locked people. The news stations are only showing a minuscule of reality. This post may offend some people but I will post what I saw, like it or not it is REALITY.
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Well last night I was watching the 6pm news when they announced the 17th street canal pumps failed as well as another break in the levee. My house is right off St. Charles Ave. and up to 6pm yesterday is was the only part of the city that was dry. Since the pumps failed and the new break St. Charles Ave. would be under 9ft of water in the next 12-15hrs. My brother and I felt if we wanted to save anything we had to leave NOW. We loaded up flashlights, rope, our medical ID's, both our .45 Glocks, 2 shotguns and rode out. En-route we listened to the radio which broad casted all the news about the looters and what not, in hindsight it was a mistake. My mother didn't want us to go by dad who is a Vietnam vet told to be safe and "shoot to kill" if it ever comes to that.

One the way we had to pass 5-6 checkpoints to allow entry into the city. We stated we were medical personnel who were activated, showed our ID and off we went. On the radio reports were coming in about the officer who was shot in the head, the 2 gunman who opened fired on the NOPD station, and how looters were carjacking cars to get out of the city. This started making my brother nervous and giving seconds thoughts.

Anyway we get to the city and it looks like a freaking war zone. The best visual I can give is the movie "Blackhawk Down" when all the Somalians are rushing the city. They are people EVERYWHERE, they are pissed off, and all have weapons, 2X4's, Axes, and guns. If this wasn't bad enough we are 2 white boys in a truck in a sea several hundred armed pissed off blacks. There wasn't a white person to be found. I couldn't get over the little 8-10yr old kids with weapons, I ever saw one carry a claw hammer!

These people were absolutely nuts rammed trucks(stolen I'm sure) in to jewelry stores stealing items, they were tearing apart Wal-Mart carrying out TV's, Playstations, DVD players, etc. One lady was wheeling out an entire rack of merchandise, not sure what it was but sure wasn't clothes for food. They were all laughing and carrying on like it's freaking Christmas.

We got stuck in traffic when we see the group of guys walking down the street w/ AK-47's, at that point the "pucker factor" kicked in, a couple Glocks and shotguns were no match for that. We haul azz trying to get to Uptown when we see these people chopping down the front door w/ an axe of this $4-5 million dollar mansion on ST. Charles Ave. I was just in total awe because it was so surreal. Making matters worse it's 11pm at night there is no electricity and you really can see anything or anyone until they are right up on you.

Our plan was to be in and out in 30min, this included putting his Harley on the trailer. It would have taken me 5-10min tops to get my stuff, all I wanted was my pictures from college, my clothes/shoes, and my computer tower. Well he got scared saying we are going to get jumped while putting the bike on the trailer. Keep in mind this is the only area in the city that is dry. So just like rats who move to higher ground these people were doing the same. Word must have gotten out that Uptown was dry so there started to be a large influx of people.

Needless to say he wanted to go home rather than take our chances. While it was the smart thing to do I was beyond infuriated w/ him because we made it this far. He just kept saying our lives aren't worth it. So we turned around, our next challenge was getting out of the city while not getting jacked. Reports came out that people were jumping in the back of truck holding the drivers at gunpoint. Traffic started to slow so I just nailed it got out as fast as I could.

Even though he was the voice of reason I'm still pissed. All I have is my life and the clothes on my back. I lost my house(which is now 9ft underwater) ALL my clothes, TV, computer, furniture, and photo albums and videos from childhood and college. What makes this worse is my brother owned the house and I was a tenant and I didn't have renters insurance, hindsight is 20/20.

I also hope everyone of the farking looters get Tetanus, E-Coli and F*(KING drown. I'm serious I really hope the all die for what they were doing to the city, killing people, and destroying homes. Never in my life have I ever seen people act live savages, it was truly sicking.

where is maynard when you need him
Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshiats.
Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will
I sure could use a vacation from this
stupid shit, silly shit, stupid shit...
One great big festering neon distraction,
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Mom's gonna fix it all soon.
Mom's comin' round to put it back the way it ought to beeeeeeeee.

fuck L Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones.
fuck all these gun-toting Hip gangster wannabes.
fuck retro anything. fuck your tattoos.
fuck all you junkies and fuck your short memory.
fuck smiley glad-hands with hidden agendas.
fuck these dysfunctional, insecure actresses.
Cuz I'm praying for rain
and I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna see it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all awaaaaaaaaay.

Time to bring it down again.
Don't just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.
I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend.
I wanna see it come down.
Flush it down.

Wonder how soon until they declare Martial law to stop the looting...

I think martial law was already declared, but too few are/were present to effectively enforce it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

Sanchek, what's the source of that graph you posted?

I think martial law was already declared, but too few are/were present to effectively enforce it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

I've read the Louisiana state constitution doesn't grant the governor authority to declare martial law. Not that it really effectively matters at this point, since the only law in New Orleans right now is martial. It's frightening how less than 48 hours can bring the total collapse of civilization in an area. One of my coworkers is currently traveling through northern LA trying to find a way to rescue her daughter's family from the mess. Seeing the chaos going on in the area we're more and more concerned that her car-load of gas, food, and water is going to get her killed.


Heh, report from someone working with the USMC currently setting up operations in NO:


Looting: The police are looting. This has been confirmed by several independent sources. Some of the looting might be "legitimate" in as much as that word has any meaning in this context. They have broken into ATMs and safes: confirmed. We have eyewitnesses to this. They have taken dozens of SUVs from dealerships ostensibly for official use. They have also looted gun stores and pawn shops for all the small arms, supposedly to prevent "criminals" from doing so. But who knows their true intentions. We have an inside source in the NOPD who says that command and control is in chaos. He reports that command lapses more than 24 hours between check-ins, and that most of the force are "like deer in the headlights." NOPD already had a reputation for corruption, but I am telling you now that the people we've been talking to say they are not recognizing the NOPD as a legitimate authority anymore, since cops have been seen looting in Walmarts and forcing people out of stores so they could back up SUVs and loot them.

I think martial law was already declared, but too few are/were present to effectively enforce it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

Martial law was declared, and they have now also ordered (number I heard) approximately 1500 of the police force to abandon search and rescue and to enforce the law against looters. Also, Bush has committed 30,000 national guard troops, according to this evening's news.

Watching the network coverage and seeing the newspaper photos, it is really hard to get a perspective on this.

If you have no home or food or water and are trying to keep your children alive, are you really going to have second thoughts about walking into the flooded grocery store and taking whatever you can to provide for them?

If you have no idea if your loved ones have survived, or where they are, or where your next meal or water is coming from, and nobody is able to answer any questions for you, how soon would you be saying "screw it", and how would your personal "screw it" manifest itself?

If you have lost everything you had, and even your place of employment is now destroyed, what do you have left?

With the mayor and disaster relief folks saying it will be 60 to 90 days before much of the city is once again habitable, where can you go?

Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome therapists will be putting their kids through college for years after this disaster, not to mention the books and TV movies that are going to come popping up as soon as the tragedy has moved off the front pages. I just hope that people's current charitable impulses last longer than the media attention, because there are going to be people needing help for years to come after this storm.

I wouldn't fault anyone, nor do I think the authorities will, for stealing food from a grocery store, clothes, supplies to survive. But a van load of brand new TVs, guns, etc etc =\= necesity Hopefully things don't get too ugly, because in a martial law situation they can very quickly. Thats why we try so hard to keep the military out of normal every day policing.

I know a bunch of people that are going down from the Alaskan Guard to help with the relief efforts, It's a frikken mad house down there. But the one thing that stays ever present in my mind. Where the fuck are all of our 'allies' in all this? I've heard rumors that most of our friends across the pond are blaming this on Global Warming, and saying it's our own damn fault so they should stay out of it. Please tell me this bullshit is not true.

But the one thing that stays ever present in my mind. Where the fuck are all of our 'allies' in all this? I've heard rumors that most of our friends across the pond are blaming this on Global Warming, and saying it's our own damn fault so they should stay out of it. Please tell me this bullshit is not true.

The Israeli government has offered to send over portable hospitals and staffing and supplies, among other things. I believe I heard the British have offered to help with energy supplies, and I think the Saudis have also done something along the lines of oil. And, Venezuela has also offered to help with oil, despite Pat Robertson trying to alienate them.

That is about the extent of what I have heard or seen, tho.

Sanchek, what's the source of that graph you posted?
I can't remember where I found the actual graphic, but it cites its source for each of the graphs on it.

With the mayor and disaster relief folks saying it will be 60 to 90 days before much of the city is once again habitable, where can you go?
That's a fantastically optimistic estimate. 1-1.5 months to make anything Katrina hit habitable tends to make me believe someone was high or in total shock when that statement was made.

No kidding....I'm hearing on the news some people are saying they won't have power until March in some places.

That's a fantastically optimistic estimate. 1-1.5 months to make anything Katrina hit habitable tends to make me believe someone was high or in total shock when that statement was made.

60 to 90 days would be 2 - 3 months, by my calendar, which is still awfully optimistic that anything would be really habitable again that soon. Some of the "experts" interviewed on the morning radio have said any structures that have had that contaminated water standing in them for days will need to be torn down, basically; it is virtually impossible to decontaminate at that large a scale, and the combination of petroleum byproducts, waste water, etc. offer too wide a range of potential health risks to allow folks to return. However, as we have seen so often before, when it gets to the bottom line of how much money is available and willing to be spent we may see more leeway being taken on what is considered acceptable risk.

You know what I don't get...why in the hell are we not even able to get helicopters in with Water/food...fly by and drop the shit. Who ever is in charge of disasters has seriously screwed the pooch. I know things take time ...but come on we are not talking about going across the Ocean here.

I hope that the http://www.thecanalstreetbrothel.com is ok.

Ibudin, they have been, then people started shooting at them...

http://www.hollowroom.plus.com/nagin.mp3

He brings up a point that I had overlooked myself. A lot of the irrational violence is probably fueled by drug and alcohol related issues. How many crackheads looted a gun and have been fiending for a fix the last several days?

According to the BBC, there are 10,000 *more* people at the Superdome this morning than there were when 'evacuations' began, and thousands of people are also trying (im)patiently to cope at the convention center, where folks were initially told to go when conditions at the Dome began to deteriorate (and found no food nor aid when they arrived, or since). Yes, widespread looting has happened (a group of doctors who set up a clinic at the Ritz-Carlton 'raided' a couple of pharmacies as well) and violence has broken out in several areas, but the vast majority of the folks stranded there are simply trying to survive until help arrives. The real crime will be if tens of thousands perish waiting for a rescue that is too little, too late, because half of the Louisiana National Guard as well as much of its heavy equipment, generators, etc, is in Iraq. Furthermore, because of 'security concerns', refugees aren't being allowed to *leave* downtown, instead being turned around at the bridge and told to head back to the hellish Superdome for evacuation.

Supposedly about 1,900 Guard landed in New Orleans this morning. Let's hope they get some semblance of a system going for getting those folks out, because the death toll will rise exponentially in the next few days otherwise...

I don't know when, but there will be a semi leaving my area stocked full of water, and other supplies heading towards that area. I think the plan was to head out this afternoon. I hope they get pictures of how full the semi is.

Our company got together and decided to start acquiring donations from our membership and employees and the company is going to match whatever contributions we get. Someone walked into the building yesterday to donate $1,000 to the relief effort. It was good to see. I just wish the relief could get there sooner.

A transcript from last evening's interview on WWL (the local AM radio station) with Roy Nagin, the mayor of New Orleans, can be found here (includes a link to a 12 minute video):

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin.transcript/index.html

Sanchek is correct in that New Orleans, as a major port town, has a significant drug problem (we have the same down here in Laredo); and that most of the more egregious looting/violence is coming from these folks, who are making it difficult for the citizens who are stuck there merely because they are poor, or infirm, to receive aid...

Regards,
Nydia

Nydia, I notice you felt good about doctors raiding for medical supplies (I agree as well).

How about those people out there "stealing bread" right now? Should we not be shooting the well-intentioned looters?

Just food for thought.

As an aside, I hadn't seen the google main page for a while. How long ago did they put a link to the relief page at Amazon?

Think thats a no brainer Palimax...common sense tells one that you don't need a 27" TV to survive but that bread thats going to spoil..eat it up.

As an aside, I hadn't seen the google main page for a while. How long ago did they put a link to the relief page at Amazon?

Two or three days ago.

Nydia, I notice you felt good about doctors raiding for medical supplies (I agree as well).

How about those people out there "stealing bread" right now? Should we not be shooting the well-intentioned looters?


Those people seeking food, water, etc, are trying to survive.

Those people using the situation to go through the window of the nearest jewelry store, or carting off electronics, or breaking in to mansions to pilfer whatever they can, are making the effort to assist survivors more difficult and rather than be allowed to hinder that effort have forfeit their rights to due process as far as I am concerned.

My cousin called me from houston, He told me there has been over 200 assaults so far in the astro dome. and a series of car jackings in the area, from people arriving and taking cars and gas. :(

I thought this was a great summing up of the press atm depending on which networks you watch. http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15565

I'm more interested in all the people squatting in the un-destroyed homes of people who were forced to evacuate.

Tonight's reading assignment will be Dostoyevsky.

For those of you only familiar with Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment," I offer the following passage from "The Dream of a Ridiculous Man" (http://www.fyodordostoevsky.com/etexts/the_dream_of_a_ridiculous_man.txt) instead...with apologies for the unmelodic translation. (Or maybe Russian is just unmelodic.)
"And yet how simple it is: in one day, in one hour everything could be
arranged at once! The chief thing is to love others like
yourself, that's the chief thing, and that's everything; nothing
else is wanted - you will find out at once how to arrange it
all. And yet it's an old truth which has been told and retold
a billion times - but it has not formed part of our lives!"

Free ebook downloads of his work http://www.fmdostoyevsky.com/ebooks.php

Update Notes : 9/02/2005 7:00 AM


Please Lend a Helping Hand in the Wake of Hurricane Katrina

Hurricane Katrina has left an incredible wake of destruction across the Mid-Atlantic States. Sony Online Entertainment would like to ask you to take a moment to make a donation to the American Red Cross in order to help alleviate some of the suffering.

In EverQuest II we have added the /donate command--type in /donate to be taken to the American Red Cross's Hurricane 2005 relief page. The American Red Cross will process your donation and make sure that it is put to maximum use to help those whose lives have been affected by the hurricane.

For our 13,000+ players in the affected areas, we will be suspending billing until such time as they are able to play again. In addition, any items or structures in any of our games that decay over time will be preserved until the user's next login.

Thank you in advance for your support and generosity.

The SOE Family

Personally, I found the 'shoot to kill' message not a little disturbing myself, and am waiting for the first child, elderly person, health care worker, or hungry parent of four that gets aired out by confused/tired/overzealous law enforcement and the proverbial doo-doo to hit the fan. The issue is further complicated by the fact that the refugees (and NO's population in general) are overwhelmingly black and poor, while most of the Guard/police there are middle-class and white. I understand the tough tone of the message - they're wanting to make an impression on the folks engaging in criminal activity 'for profit' as it were - but my overall feeling is that it will have little impact on those people, and may result in the deaths of innocent people, either through shooting or neglect because of suspicion/concerns about 'security'. Adam Brookes of the BBC, who has been on the ground in NO for several days, posted this afternoon:

I went to the Superdome and there are about 15,000-20,000 people. The pace of evacuation there is unbelievably slow. We seem to see columns of buses going in but the number of people going out does not seem to change. There are helicopters which throw food and water out and men fight over the relief aid. So the elderly and mums and pregnant women don't get anything. It's an extraordinary situation.

At either end of the centre are armed troops and police but nobody is walking up and down the crowd that are outside. They are not trying to figure out who to give water to, baby formula, or antibiotics. We discovered this morning that a number of children are starting to go down with diarrhoea which I think may be the most serious development overnight.

The Governor is attributing the worst of the violence in the city to drug addicts who have looted gun shops and are now prowling the city to get a fix any way they can.

There's a very aggressive police presence. They don't stop and talk to the refugees at all and they don't communicate with them. They just speed by in their pick up trucks and their cars pointing shotguns out of the window as they go. It's quite extraordinary behaviour. And these desperate people are waiting for evacuation. The police behaviour makes them all feel like suspects.

Every now and again a military helicopter comes in, it hovers over a car park and soldiers throw out big boxes of bottled water and food ration packs and then a great tide of young men come running in and start fighting for the food. This means that the most vulnerable people, the sick and elderly, many families don't get a shot of the food coming down. There are five corpses there, at least from what we've seen today, it could be a serious development.

Elsewhere at the Convention Centre, there isn't a bus in sight. The only thing you see out of 2,000-3,000 people is police cars going through pointing shotguns. These are unbelievable conditions. Words begin to fail me.

For the first couple of days after the hurricane hit, the Uptown/St. Charles area (where a lot of expensive homes are) was dry, but it has since flooded with the failure of Pump station #6 and the London Avenue levee break. There isn't much of the city that *is* dry, and considering how horrific conditions are at the Superdome and Convention center, it wouldn't surprise me if there were still thousands to tens of thousands of folks still stranded and/or squatting wherever they can because it isn't feasible for them to move family members through the now toxic and hazardous floodwaters to get to one of those places to be evacuated.

It is my hope that the authorities wouldn't actually think about prosecuting people who are just trying to stay alive and who have had to take matters into their own hands in the face of (up until now) anarchy and a totally inadequate relief response. As the mayor indicated, if the troops had been mobilized, and command and control established early, they wouldn't have half the mess they do now, but it, sadly, doesn't surprise me that in the early going priority was placed on protecting property over people, either, considering the socioeconomic status of most of the refugees.

I feel kind of odd posting about this topic on here at all, actually - it's not as if our mental masturbation is going to get anyone fed, cleaned, and rescued, but considering the enormity of the situation, I think that the nature of our response to it speaks volumes and will have repercussions for a very long time to come.

Regards,
Nydia

They definitely shouldn't prosecute anyone looting food, water, hygiene, or other necessary products. They should spare no mercy for the people looting guns and plasma TVs though.

I need my freshly looted shotgun, because others have looted shotguns.

...and, yeah, it must suck (more than usual) to be a drug addict in NO.

They should spare no mercy for the people looting guns and plasma TVs though.
BOOM ! HEADSHOT!

first of all, i would like to know WHERE THE HELL DO YOU MOVE TO THAT WON'T BE AFFECTED BY ANY KIND OF CALAMITY??? please, tell me and i will move there. seriously. it doesn't exist.

yes, i live in louisiana. yes, i live 70 miles north of new orleans. we did get some damage to the house we live in but we have insurance. have to. we pay the premiums and it will get fixed (by ourselves - not claiming something we can fix ourselves). and we live far enough inland that by the time the storm reaches us it's downgraded and not as much as a threat. but i don't think people thought it was going to be that bad. i know i went to bed saturday night to a category 2 storm and woke up the next day to a category 5.

we get hurricanes maybe once or twice a year here. they always evacuate new orleans but not everyone can or does leave. some got used to people leaving because of a storm but then it moves off to the florida coast. it's like crying wolf.

then some people can't leave because they have no way of leaving. so they go to a shelter or tall building. they figure it'll be safe and they can ride out the storm.

others can't leave because they're in a hospital or nursing home. and then you have to have someone there to take care of them. they just can't leave patients.

there is no communication to speak of in new orleans. no power, no phonelines, no cell phones. nothing. i don't even live in new orleans itself but i can't call anyone most of the time, the cell towers running on generators since there's no power. i can't charge the phone up because there's no power.

and i've been through lots of hurricanes. i was here when andrew went through louisiana. we had a lot of damage then too, but we were sending relief to the people in southern florida where the houses were destroyed.

i don't like what happened in new orleans any more than any of you. but it absolutely sucks here. the city i live in has doubled in size overnight. rumors are flying everywhere. there's shortages on gas, food, water. people are on edge here. they have lost everything. but we will come back even stronger than before.

and if anyone wants to know, yes, i'm doing my part. we're donating food and clothing to the needy and we're housing a family who lost their home to the hurricane. i just wish you guys would find something else to flame about. we really don't need any of this right now. it's only making a horrible situation worse.

The issue is further complicated by the fact that the refugees (and NO's population in general) are overwhelmingly black and poor, while most of the Guard/police there are middle-class and white.

C'mon now Nydia, thats a hugely ignorant statement. Maybe the police are, but a rather large portion of the Guard, are black, hispanic, etc even here in Alaska. Saying bullshit like that only feeds into these retarded claims that the (lack of) response to the hurricane was somehow racially motivated rather than just plain old fashioned shit poor planning.

People need to stop the fucking blame game and focus on what the fuck we can do to fix the situation bitching and complaining does nothing except make the situation worse.

I'm not saying that the lack of response was racially motivated (it was just piss poor initial response and planning); I'm saying that that tension along race lines has, and does, exist between the NO police and many of the downtown residents and the extreme stress of the situation doesn't help matters, especially when orders like 'shoot to kill' are given. I'm also saying that the fear about violence and mayhem has been so played up that the Guard, as well as the police, are so hopped up according to *today's* reports that most of them are riding around in their trucks guns a-blazing rather than risk interacting with the refugees. I'm not saying that the Guard is homogeneously white (I live in a town that's 95% Hispanic and our local Guard, as you might expect, has a fair Hispanic population as well), but I do think that racial fears/tensions have been exacerbated by the situation.

Regards,
Nydia

Risk interacting with the refugees? The view of NOPD for a LONG time has been that they are a crooked, racist and any other negative adjective you want to place in front of police department. For about 10 years now, the issue of interdepartmental corruption has been addressed, in some areas, to no avail. The view of inner-city residents hasn't changed towards law enforcement. It's been the view that they are there to oppress, never to assist the citizens of certain areas with any degree of betterment even in the wake of this disaster. Also, considering that the african american population of Orleans parish is mid 60ish%, the race card could be easily played here, but it would be the work of a fool to implement that school of thought. The inner city residents are impoverished, with Mississippi being the only state to surpass Louisiana in percentage of residents living below poverty level. The fear, violence and mayhem has in no way been 'played up'. 10 year old girls being raped, beaten and left for dead isn't playing anything up. I can empathize with the frustrations of the refugees, but understand this. The US, nor any other nation in the world, can ever entirely be prepared for any true catastrophy it is forced to experience. Does anyone here honestly believe that had circumstances been different the response would've been different? Small rescue operations take hours. Had these refugees been middle-class white NO residents, do you think the mobilization of rescue and relief efforts would have taken less time? No, it wouldn't have been a factor. People who get into ems, fire and law enforcement generally join the ranks as an outward entension of a willingness to help people. Not whites, not blacks, not hispanics, not asians. People.

I think the lack of response is way overblown. The logistics of finding a place for all those people, getting in there, tending to them, and getting them out is massive. I know the Air Force and Coast Guard were on the scene already on Monday with helicopter rescue teams, going nonstop. But, they could only do so much. They couldn't feasibly fly every four people they rescued to Houston instead of the dome.

The thing is, you can pour all the money and political power you want into the situation and that still doesn't unblock the roads or change the fact that there's no gas West of Birmingham. Getting a supply chain in place for something of this scale isn't all that easy. I would hazard a guess that (minus the actual fighting) getting into Baghdad was probably easier than getting into downtown New Orleans.

I blame the French

I could care less about stores being looted. Im not saying its okay. But its really just "stuff". There is no way in hell anyone should be shot dead for stealing a TV from flooded Best Buy.

The thing that I hate and sickens me is peoples homes being looted. Thats personal, thats more severe and that, I think, warrents being shot.

Some one was telling me that the patrol officer in NO can expect to make a whopping 20k a year. Id say thats hardly middle class if its true.

Obviously, no one should be shot dead for looting a TV, but reasonable force should be used to draw a line in the sand; even over TVs. If you're talking about an armed looter, at least a shoulder shot seems reasonable.

Especially at this point, they've got to get things under control or they're just going to keep getting worse. That means no exceptions.

Dear Ibudin:

Wages are very low in New Orleans and all of the Mississippi delta; I interviewed for a teaching job at Delgado Community College last year (in downtown NO), only to find out that I would have to accept a 20% pay cut from *Laredo* wages (which are low for Texas) if I took the job. 20k may not sound like much (and it isn't, although I think they start in the 24k range now), but it's in line what other public service professionals make in the area, and beats the heck out of what the folks in retail and hospitality make. It can be kind of mind-boggling to think that a city like New Orleans, with all its mystique (and millions in tourist dollars flowing through it) can be so economically bad off, but it is so - like most port cities, lots of money goes *through* the town, but very little actually stays around and benefits the citizenry. Also, as has already been mentioned, corruption is a *huge* problem there, in part because wages are so low and the drug traffic so lucrative and omnipresent in a huge port city (we have a big problem with it as well and bribery and corruption probes/arrests of police, border patrol agents, and city judges/councilmen are frequent here).

As far as the relief efforts go, reports indicate that aid via the Guard and other federal agencies is finally starting to reach the folks at the major refugee gathering points (the Superdome/Convention Center), but that the police still have not been, shall we say, very helpful (this is from the BBC once again):

The convention centre is still dismal, but people there now are getting food and water distributed by troops.

Around 15,000 people are still at the stadium and they too are getting bits and pieces of aid.

This will alleviate the situation slightly but the centre of New Orleans is grim indeed.

New Orleans is a stinking hell hole of a place right now. People are told every day that buses will come and then none turn up.

Once the people are helped out of here, then the clean-up begins and that will take a long time. The water needs to be pumped out.

There will be dead bodies found. Many, many dead bodies will be found everywhere; floating in the streets, in houses, in attics, everywhere.

Then the re-building needs to begin.

In my view the police are not being very helpful and are adding to the alienation by several notches. The police look to me like they have gone really overboard; they are heavily-armed, aggressive, not communicating and they look very, very menacing indeed.


I do have sympathy for the police; this is their home, after all, and it has to be very upsetting to see it destroyed and anarchy being the order of the day for several days in the vacuum before sufficient military aid came; they must be very stressed indeed. Do I think that many of them, regardless of race, went 'Bubba' and overboard in response to the crisis? Yes. There were, also, multiple reports of *police* looting that went on, and not just for survival supplies, the NOPD sometimes chasing looters out and then looting a location themselves, but I think most of that opportunistic looting paled/faded away once a couple of days went by and the enormity of the very real crisis dawned.


My concern/curiosity at this point is with what is going to happen, not when the last of the refugees that have been waiting for aid is bussed/flown out, but what will happen in the city once the 'official' evacuation is concluded. It is evident that the city will have to remain evacuated for a month or more while it is drained and rudimentary repairs made to infrastructure. What about the people stranded in remote locations, who may take a while to be found? Perhaps more provocatively, are there pockets of people (and I suspect there are) who are holed up who *don't* want to be rescued (either the criminal element, or religious and other survivalists)? I imagine a house-to-house search will be conducted at some point, but what will happen to these people? And how much will we actually hear about it on the news?


Regards,
Nydia

first of all, i would like to know WHERE THE HELL DO YOU MOVE TO THAT WON'T BE AFFECTED BY ANY KIND OF CALAMITY??? please, tell me and i will move there. seriously. it doesn't exist.No place is completely safe. Plenty of places have a much lower risk of natural disaster. Try, Utah.

Not everyone has the capacity to pack up and move. Not everyone has the financial means to move. The vast majority of the people that stayed behind were poor people with no means of transportation and no where to go. Now, this is in an emergency situation they didn't have a means to get out or a place to go. Packing up and moving to the poorest of the poor isn't an option. Family is all they have, and if their family is in NO, and their family has been in NO for 100+ years, where do you expect them to move?

It's not easy for an under educated poor person to just pack up and move. Finding work as an under educated person isn't going to be easy, transportaion isn't available, and they'd have to leave everything they know behind.

Is it more safe for a person to stay with their support net when poor, or attempt to move themselves and their family to an unknown area without a job or a place to live? Saying that someone below the poverty line should just up and move is very ignorant of the real problem of poverty in this country. 30% of New Orleans is below the poverty line. Where do you expect 300,000+ poor people to go to find a better life? I have 2 college degrees and can't find good employment here in Ohio. Sure they could move somewhere and get a McDonald's job, but does that pay moving expenses for an entire family. How do you expect them to move their possessions without a car? How do you expect them to rent a UHaul with no money?

Oh but they should move, they should know that where they live isn't safe. Well, no major hurricane has hit New Orleans since 1953. So they "know" the danger? Most of them weren't alive the last time NO was hit to even catch a glimpse of the danger.

When a person is living day to day, trying to support themselves, and their extended families in many cases, moving to get away from natural disasters couldn't be further away from their day to day thoughts. Do you expect them to move away from their older parents that can't move and leave them behind? Do you expect an under educated poor person to be able to find work in another area of the country to support a large family AND pay for housing, and buy a car, etc.?

Just because you are a middle class white person doesn' t mean everyone else in this country is afforded the same luxury or ability to move on a whim.

Historic Earthquake info from FEMA (http://mapserver2.esri.com/cgi-bin/hazard.adol?s=2&c=-103.503333,40.582020&p=6&cd=z&d=0)
Historic Tornado info from FEMA (http://mapserver2.esri.com/cgi-bin/hazard.adol?s=3&c=-103.503333%2C40.582020&d=0&cd=z&p=6&x=111&y=12)
Historic Hail Storms info from FEMA (http://mapserver2.esri.com/cgi-bin/hazard.adol?s=5&c=-103.503333%2C40.582020&d=0&cd=z&p=6&x=87&y=10)
Historic Hurricane info from FEMA (http://mapserver2.esri.com/cgi-bin/hazard.adol?s=6&c=-103.503333%2C40.582020&d=0&cd=z&p=6&x=76&y=8)

Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, Utah seem your best bets. Although Wind Storms (http://mapserver2.esri.com/cgi-bin/hazard.adol?s=4&c=-103.503333,40.582020&p=6&cd=z&d=0) might move you back to Arizona and Colorado.

Every state has *some* flood activity.

And of course you completely ignore the feasibility factor of up and moving simply because you'd be able to do it if you wanted too. Now is obviously when they will move out of NO if they have nothing to go back too, but before this, it's all many of these people know.

And like I said, the majority of these people are under educated too, you think most of them look up shit like disaster areas? Do you think the majority of them had internet access for that matter?

Next you are gonna say that they shouold go down to the library to use internet access there to look up disaster zones.

To the people that live on hillsides in million dollar houses that burn down or get washed out by a mudslide, I don't feel so badly for that person. To a poor person with no options, that had been all but abandoned by our government for 5 days, I feel HORRIBLE.

Just because you are a middle class white person doesn' t mean everyone else in this country is afforded the same luxury or ability to move on a whim.My color has to do with what?

And of course you completely ignore the feasibility factor of up and moving simply because you'd be able to do it if you wanted too.Taleran, someone ASKED where, and I answered.

Look, I get the fact that most people in New Orleans didn't have a "choice." They do when they rebuild. They do. Living at 35' above sea level, and below lake/river level turned out to not be such a good idea.

your color/financial status has to do with your inability to even empathize with what these peopel go through day to day. Obviously with your solution that everyone should just move out of these areas is very short sighted. Not everyone has a means too but your economic and social status apparently doesn't afford you the ability to see that reality.

Next you are gonna say that they shouold go down to the library to use internet access there to look up disaster zones.No Taleran, people should just be sheep. Eat, work, sleep, consume, repeat.

Dammit that's the second time you've spelled my name incorrectly, at least if you want to debate with me, spell my name correctly.

As much as I hate to admit it, socio economic factors are playing a major role in this tragedy. I hate when I turn on the TV and see an african american state how everything has racial undertones. Unfortunately, in this circumstance, I have to agree with that stance, that many of the problems here from our government are racially driven.

I won't completely agree with what was said last night "George Bush hates black people," but I would agree if what was said was "George Bush doesn't care about poor black people as much as rich white people."

if not ValidArgument()
random (1)
if random
call InsultSpelling
else
call InsultGrammar
end if
end if
if @error call Hitler

I didn't insult your grammar, didn't talk about hitler or make any comparisons. I asked you to spell my name correctly if you wanted to debate with me. My name is Mike and if a person kept mispronouncing it when addressing me irl, it would be incredibly rude. I also noticed you were able to quote me and spell my name correctly but then not able to type it out correctly twice two posts in a row. It's not a grammar thing, it's a respect thing. You may not like what I'm posting about, that doesn't make it invalid. Just like me not agreeing with your posts doesn't make them invalid.

Misspelling my name over and over, when you've known me for 6 YEARS and talked to me countless times in game, is just rude, especially when I know you know how to spell it.

Mike, your name gets quoted correctly automatically if I hit the "quote" button on these forums. Your name get echo'd correctly if I hit the "R" button in EverQuest. I get your name auto-populated in /tt commands as well. If I mis-type it in EverQuest, it tells me Taleran isn't online.

The truth, Taleren, is that you shouldn't flatter yourself. I obviously don't know how to spell your name. I remember the "sound" that Tahl'er'n makes, and, obviously, I couldn't have told you if it had two A's or two E's.

I'm so inconsiderate.

Oh yes lets let all those colored people starve, drown, and just be misserable. Anyone who thinks this is racially modivated (the relief/rescue efforts) more than just being plain old "unprepaired" or simply sucking at ones job....I don't know what to say for you.

I personally don't believe for one milisecond that any or lack of effort in getting NO back in action and its people taken care of...has anything to do with color.


Now I do have a question to Taleran.

I totally believe how hard it is for one to move across country when all you can afford is a cheese sandwhich for the day..but how can you tell all these illegal immigrants (some not) are all the way to hartford, WI from MEXICO..working in a factory printing magazines? Maybe they just have a stronger will to live/survive? Also..we are talking about getting out of the city just for a few days so that you don't DIE...I can get pretty far on a bicycle in 24 hours and sleep on a bench in a park ..rather than be killed from a hurricane and its aftermath.

Hmmmm Utah isn't safe by a long stretch. We're , experts predict, 40 years overdue for a MAJOR 7.0+ earthquake on the Wasatch fault. Since 80% of our population live over the blasted thing coupled with our dam network we're in a precarious position.


Fandros

I found this very impressive:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/katrina.world.aid.reut/index.html



Sri lanka even offering up money when it has very little itself. I am pleased to see many countrys on that list offering up some sort of help.

As mnay might remember im involved with a internet Radio station. We have one of the Co-Owners and some of our support staff that live in Macomb, Miss. and Slydel, Miss. Inhibitor the Co-Owner of the company is a terestrial DJ there and has been keeping us posted about whats going on around there. Seems there have been alot of generator thefts and gas can thefts and 2 gas tanker got hijacked at the state line but he also reported that a 18 year old girl some how got a semi and got it filled with dry goods and talked someone into driving it there.

Right now the station is doing a donation drive, so far we have almost 3k donated that is. Its amazing to see what a bunch of gamer geeks that listen to us can do. If you wanna see just whats up drop on by the sight (Im Shortburst there and if we get 10k some how i have to get a FULL body wax which im dreading) anyway the new site is www.wor-radio.com

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2005/09/03/starr.gen.honore.no.guns.cnn

That guy is the man, plain and simple. It's good to see someone stop pointing fingers and stepping up to get the job done.

Also, note that there's no small amount of white people still trapped in the city, looking at that video. It's interesting how the composition of race changes when they aren't purposely trying to force a certain point of view to match what they want to write about.

Japan has sent help to New Orleans as well. (http://nokatamaricleanup.ytmnd.com/)

Yeah apparently Japan sent $200,000, Australia over $6 million, and China $5 million, among others.

I was watching some newscast on CNN where it showed some clips of foreign news and it made be pretty mad somewhat. One clip showed an English man saying that (almost exact quote but I don't remember every little word):

"this just shows that America isn't all mighty and invincible after all; one storm and they're out."

That really made me angry for a bit. He was right in the sense that we as a country are so unprepared for disasters like these, but the way he said it (in a haughty, laughing manner) really got under my skin. This isn't about politics and who's better than who, it's about recovering and saving lives!

Ya know the problem?
Human beings suck at empathy.
We are virtually, by and large, unable to understand the viewpoints of people unlike ourselves without dramatic presentation. This is a universal truth. We cant understand the situation of people in New Orleans. We cant understand why other countries resent us. They cant understand why we(perception) either hate them, or express complete apathy toward them.
Lemme start with a small example.
Rap Music.
Why is a form of music so atuned and focused for and about african americans so popular across the spectrum of America and the world? Think Rosetta Stone. You know that stone that Napoleons Armies found in Egypt that enabled the modern world to decifer the Egyptian hieroglyphics.
Apply that concept to modern day America. We live in a culture with so many people living side by side, and with each other, but we still cant summon enough natural empathy to gain an understanding for people we interact with on some basis on a daily level.
Rap Music does that. It basically translates a culture so middle america can understand it.
''In a strange, somewhat disquieting way, Dre and Snoop had become reassuring, as if their presence now signified that the difference between the ghetto and the exurbs needed not be measured in social indicators but in degrees of cool,'' Chang writes. ''The Black thing you once couldn't understand had now become a G thang you could buy into -- the chronic, the crip walk, condoms, ConArt, Chevrolet, Pendleton, Zig-Zag, Seagram, Remy, Hennessy, Tanqueray, Desert Eagle, Dogg Pound, Death Row. Here was the short-lived post-truce freedom recast as the sweet sound of rapsploitation and a new corporate multiculturalism.''

If it takes this intense over the top medium to grant even a distorted sense of empathy, how can any of us hope to gain insight into people from other nations, or expect them to understand us.
We Americans vacillate from either the conservative side which subscribes to an Underlying both conscious and unconscious belief in America's inherent goodness and benevolence. Too many Americans simply cannot understand why other nations might distrust the United States and be unwilling to follow its lead. "The only possible explanations must be that they are either ill informed, in which case Washington must talk at them more loudly, or led by evil people, who must be destroyed. Or the Liberal side which thinks that American is inherantly evil or over-aggressive" Both sides equally idiotic, naive and damaging.

So stop the pity party about who sent what. Life as the Hegemon is lonely, as it always is at the top... poor us... get used to it

LOL, intellectualizing Rap music to make it something more than crap music, giving it some lofty transcending power is sheer mental masturbation. Kids listen to rap for the same reasons we listened to the Beatles at that age, or the reason our parents/grandparents went for Benny Goodman and Glen Miller's swing music in their day......it was something different than what our folks were listening to, and it allowed us/them to rebel.

Other than that, all the gobbledy-goop comparing it to the Rosetta Stone is silly. Rap's popularity was driven by the same machine that convinced people Paris Hilton was worth their attention, or that reality televison is creative programming, or that Jennifer Aniston is more than simply this generations Farah Fawcett (moderately talented and moderately attractive with a good haircut in an ensemble program).

/hijack off

I have been extremely impressed with the offered aid from many surprising countries, such as Sri Lanka which is still in the early stages of rebuilding after the tsunami, or Cuba which has so many reasons to thumb it's nose at Bush but instead has made offers of doctors and medical assistance.
Tragedies of this magnitude bring out many facets of human nature, and the best always seems to shine through.

Im not a huge fan of Rap either, (other than some choice Tupac, Biggie, NWA, Snoop and Eminem) but to not notice the huge societal impact that has is to not pay attention. Rap does act like a Rosetta Stone to kids (not just Suburban white kids) all over the world. Take it from someone that deals with 100s of teenagers every day.
Rap has been the dominate form of music for about 10 years in America. What was the last Rock album that had ANY societal impact? Nevermind by Nirvana? I would even say that Rap as a whole has had more impact than the Beatles or Elvis as far as setting norms and influencing youth.
Think about it.
How many mediums can a teen access music, Radio, TV, Ipod, CD, movies, computers. How many kids perpetually have an Ipod or a walkman on thier ears? In too many cases, 50 Cent is "raising" kids more than parents are. He has their attention 10 hours a day.
What was the way with Benny Goodman? An hour each night with the parents?

Its hard to say ...would be more kids these days would listen to Justin Timberlake then some trash rap. Can't tell me that the majority of mexican teenagers are listening to rap. I really haven't done any searches on records sold in the US but hell...just going off of my demographics and what I am seeing here.

Quick question here..what ethnicity is becomming the majority fast in this country?

Quick question here..what ethnicity is becomming the majority fast in this country?

In the area of PA that I live in....Hispanic

LOL, intellectualizing Rap music to make it something more than crap music

I stopped caring there.

Rap you hear on the radio/tv now is certainly horrible. But what L2 said was certainly true back in the 80's and early 90's. N.W.A? Public enemy? Just because you're biased against the genre of music doesn't mean you can deny the effect it has had on our culture.

But please please please don't put shit like 50 cent and whatever else is popular now in the same sentence as ones that have actual talent.

Oh, and Justin timberlake has some catchy stuff. :p

I read alot about those international offers, but where is the help?
I can understand that you can't open gates like this and let every country in the world come and help as they can, but why does it take so long for 1st helps to come?

/hugs Gaed, glad to hear you're fine.

Dramatic Foreshadowing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_the_Levee_Breaks

If it keeps on rainin’, levee’s goin’ to break,
If it keeps on rainin’, levee’s goin’ to break,
When the levee breaks I’ll have no place to stay.
Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan,
Lord, mean old levee taught me to weep and moan,
Got what it takes to make a mountain man leave his home,
Oh, well, oh, well, oh, well.
Don’t it make you feel bad
When you’re tryin’ to find your way home,
You don’t know which way to go?
If you’re goin’ down south
They go no work to do,
If you don’t know about chicago.
Cryin’ won’t help you, prayin’ won’t do you no good,
Now, cryin’ won’t help you, prayin’ won’t do you no good,
When the levee breaks, mama, you got to move.
All last night sat on the levee and moaned,
All last night sat on the levee and moaned,
Thinkin’ ’bout me baby and my happy home.
Going, go’n’ to chicago,
Go’n’ to chicago,
Sorry but I can’t take you.
Going down, going down now, going down.

Actually... in the catagory of "actually useful help", Kuwait has offered to give the US 500 Million dollars worth of free oil
http://www.finance24.com/articles/economy/display_article.asp?Nav=ns&lvl2=econ&ArticleID=1518-1785_1764970

Wont see this article on any of the Right Wing, "Nobody Helps Us" Crybaby sites, but I thought it was pretty damn cool of them, surprised me.

Perhaps the Netherlands should help us construct new levees :).

You see that Qatar offered us 100 mil too L2?

Yeah apparently Japan sent $200,000, Australia over $6 million, and China $5 million, among others.

I was watching some newscast on CNN where it showed some clips of foreign news and it made be pretty mad somewhat. One clip showed an English man saying that (almost exact quote but I don't remember every little word):

"this just shows that America isn't all mighty and invincible after all; one storm and they're out."

That really made me angry for a bit. He was right in the sense that we as a country are so unprepared for disasters like these, but the way he said it (in a haughty, laughing manner) really got under my skin. This isn't about politics and who's better than who, it's about recovering and saving lives!

I've lived in a foreign country (Canada) and been involved with a foreigner (Australian) and can tell you that once one steps outside of the USA, one is going to run into anti-Americanism. A lot of it. From countries that one might think is friendly with us. From people one might think are their friends. This is nothing new, just someone finding an opportunity to stand on their soapbox.

Tacky yes, but I've also had people say what I considered insulting anti-American comments to my face in polite company.

Btw, how I plan to contribute to New Orlean's recovery is once the French Quarter opens (in a couple months I hope) I think I'll book a weekend at a nice hotel there. Have dinner at Emeril's, brunch at Brennan's. Drink some (ahem) hurricanes at 8am while wandering around the riverfront. Do some touristy things like visit a museum, drop some change on a few street performers, do a riverboat ride. Nosh on some beignets and chicory coffee. Have some oysters at Crescent City Brewhouse. All the things I appreciate about New Orlenas.

Btw, how I plan to contribute to New Orlean's recovery is once the French Quarter opens (in a couple months I hope) I think I'll book a weekend at a nice hotel there. Have dinner at Emeril's, brunch at Brennan's. Drink some (ahem) hurricanes at 8am while wandering around the riverfront. Do some touristy things like visit a museum, drop some change on a few street performers, do a riverboat ride. Nosh on some beignets and chicory coffee. Have some oysters at Crescent City Brewhouse. All the things I appreciate about New Orlenas.

Now that sounds like a plan I could definitely get with:cool:

Rap you hear on the radio/tv now is certainly horrible. But what L2 said was certainly true back in the 80's and early 90's. N.W.A? Public enemy? Just because you're biased against the genre of music doesn't mean you can deny the effect it has had on our culture.

But please please please don't put shit like 50 cent and whatever else is popular now in the same sentence as ones that have actual talent.



Well, I hope the comment about 50 cent was in reference to L2's comments, because it looks like you are directing it at me after the quote, and I said nothing about him.

As for my comments in general regarding rap music, I am not biased against it, as you say. It is not to my liking as far as what I listen to, because of a number of factors: I dislike having songs I enjoyed years ago taken and "sampled" in order to make a new song and have someone take credit for being creative; I dislike hearing the same basic three or four beats over and over and over and having folks take credit for creativity; I dislike hearing the glorification of street violence and domestic violence and the disrespect of women; and, I dislike the culture of violence that I see taken outside of the music into the real world which cost us one of the few rappers that I did enjoy, Tupac.

I listen to music before deciding if I like it or not, and having a 21 year old son I have listened to a lot of rap (ever try to drive somewhere with your kids in the front seat and the radio within their reach and not end up listening to their music); I enjoy almost everything with the exception of polka music.

As far as Rap's effect on the culture, it is just as I was saying, each generation takes hold of a new music style and that has always included changes in the culture. The Beatles impact was the most profound I think to date, seeing how it impacted music, fashion, television and movie making, etc., at a time that was markedly more conservative than what we had when Rap came on the scene. Rap has had it's own huge impacts on these things, but the groundwork to allow for and accept something such as Rap was laid by the Beatles.

This is just my opinion, of course.

Now lets get back to talking about Katrina aid.:o

"Louisiana is a city that is largely underwater..."

--Michael Chertoff, Secretary of Homeland Security

I'm back after a few days away.

If you want to talk about rap, please start another thread. I need to catch up on the news, but it looks like FEMA hasn't responded to this very well.

Thor, that's the (under)statement of the year. I think 'depraved indifference' is probably the most accurate description of FEMA/Homeland Security's attitude/actions in the first several days following Monday...

I have a lengthy post on my work computer on this topic that I was hammering on today in the one hour I wasn't teaching my overload *and* subbing for a co-worker's lecture. I'll finish pounding it out after my morning lectures, but my brain is jello atm...

Regards,
Nydia

LL...Actually... in the catagory of "actually useful help", Kuwait has offered to give the US 500 Million dollars worth of free oil
http://www.finance24.com/articles/e...18-1785_1764970 (http://www.finance24.com/articles/economy/display_article.asp?Nav=ns&lvl2=econ&ArticleID=1518-1785_1764970)

Wont see this article on any of the Right Wing, "Nobody Helps Us" Crybaby sites, but I thought it was pretty damn cool of them, surprised me.

Come on.. The major bitch on the "Nobody Helps us" sites was because of the bullshit that was spewed forth when it took the US "48"hours to respond to the Tsunami. Everyone was whining that we did not act fast enough with Aid and shit. If you notice, it took most countries a week to come forth.. not 2 days.

Tal... Come on man, I have known you for a while now, both in game and out, and some of the shit you are saying is way off base. To say that Pali cannot understand the plights of poor minorities because he is white and middleclass is off base and ignorant. Last time I checked you were not black and poor.

To say that Bush was slow in his response because he does not care what happens to the poor black people, only the rich white? Please just look past your own hatred for Bush and look at that statement objectively.. It was not Bush that failed to activate the National Guard of Lousiana for over 24 hours after the disaster. That is the act of the Commander in Chief of the STATE. It was not Bush who after telling the citizens to evacuate failed to mobilize the Public school busses to move the "poor people who are incapable of moving" out of the city. No, those busses were locked away all in neat rows getting a free wash and waxing from Katrina.

Do I think that there was a slow response, and that there could have been alot better ways of handling this? Hell ya. Do I think that other countries donating to this cause is great, even if it is a week later? Hell ya. Do I think that there are people who are drooling over this disaster to twist it into politcial advantage? OH hell ya.

Shanno

All President Bush had to do was declare this a National disaster and he could have sent troops in without waiting for the governor of LA. The governor of LA has done a horrible job here too.

And you are right I don't quite understand what the people from down there are going through either, though I do know what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck (as I'm a stay at home dad right now and the wife makes just enough for us to get to the next paycheck). If my parents lived with us, or down the block from us like the people in NO, I wouldn't have anywhere to go either. The wife, baby and I couldn't afford to go stay at a hotel. We don't keep credit cards because I'll be honest, we aren't responsible to not be a day late on a payment here or there and I don't want 27% interest rates. We use a debit card to book any reservations we get for hotels, but when the money is gone from that, it's gone.

It's not reasonable to expect everyone to be able to pack up and leave a city in 24 hours notice. The plight of the poverty stricken make this even more so the case in light of what happened in NO. To completely dismiss it, or to seem to dismiss it, like Palimax has done show's that he can't and doesn't want to understand how difficult the poor have it, especially in the time of disaster. It's not reasonable to say that the poor should up and move because that's what Pali would do if his area had the potential for disaster. Not everyone has the means to do that, and I'll stick by my guns to my statement that Palimax doesn't understand their plight when he offers up such suggestions.

You tell me to get my head out of my ass because I don't follow Bush blindly, though I've seen him make countless mistakes over the last 5 years. As an American I have a right to speak my mind about such matters. You being a military guy (who's still enlisted as far as the last time we spoke), are trained to take the word of your commanders blindly and follow. As a citizen, I have the right to not follow him blindly. I can support the troops like you, Gheric, my brother in law, Shancc, etc. without supporting all the choices made by Bush.

Do I think that there are people who are drooling over this disaster to twist it into politcial advantage?

Anyone...ANYONE drooling over this disaster is unequivically an asshole. Anyone saying that being critical of Bush, his policies and his administration surrounding this disaster is drooling over this disaster...is an asshole. Hopefully that is not what you are saying....so it wouldn't apply to you.

Bush's administration was charged, since 9/11, with making the country more prepared to respond to sitiuations like this, terrorist attack or natural disaster, they, and many others*, have failed. The leavies should have been strentgthened or backed up years ago, and the response shouldn't have been delyaed like it was. Point the fingers where you want, most of the governmental agencies involved with ensuring public safety and relief, failed. As a result, many lives were needlessly lost.

* - The current and past Govs of Louisianna and Mayors of NO along with past federal administrations...to name some.

Whoa whoa whoa there nelly.

In the late 90's some 10+ billion dollars were appropriated by the Army Corps of Engineers to make the NO levies capable of handling a Type 5 hurricane.

The EPA threatened a huge lawsuit due to the waterways being changed and the potential for some foriegn materials slipping into the Lake.

Same lake will now be dead for years to come...

So, before you point too god damn many fingers at the current administration there bucko. Remember the legal battles required to get anything done to any waterway nowdays...

Ahhhh and of note...late 90's wasn't Bush's baliwick. Funny how folks don't want to look there...

Fandros

Even if it would have been strengthed there is no guarantee that they would have held and kept the area from flooding. Mother Nature has a mind of her own. It's all hypothicial. Bottom line, we had/have a natural disaster on our hands and people are dying or in desparate need of care.

So, before you point too god damn many fingers at the current administration there bucko

Read the post BUCKO!!

The current and past Govs of Louisianna and Mayors of NO along with past federal administrations...to name some.

edit addition - Personally I don't buy the crap coming out blaming the leavies on Bush...they should have been shored up years before he was on board. I do think criticism is warranted for the "unacceptable"* response to the disaster.

* - Bush's own words

You took personal what I was saying generally there Ail.

I'm a proponent of blaming the administration all along of too god damn red tape.

EPA among other overblown orgs are far too short sighted in the name of political gain.

Now, we all have to bear the brunt of too many hands in the pot.

1) The Gov didn't issue a mandatory evac until early Sunday...TOO LATE
2) To damn many folks refused to leave, and are still refusing to leave. How much time is wasted on these folks?
3) Martial law should've been enforced early on. All looters armed shot on sight. Levy engineers being shot at while rebuilding the levies? wth
4) All these Hollywood armchair politicians , including that rapper from the other night, running their worthless mouths? How bout shutting up and putting feet on the ground at ground zero losers?
5) Also, our nation is set up such that the State is supposed to request aid. The Gov didn't request till when? In my mind much of the confusion twixt State/federal lies at this level.
6) All need to remember, this is a disaster. Any politician , read Howard Dean here, that uses it to further political future? Axe'em....

Random thoughts here....no real focus atm.

Fandros

To add to what Fandros had to say...

... Consider the amount of time necessary to organize relief, locate and arrange transportation for people, locate and arrange for trucks/transport, load those trucks with supplies, and then the drive to get anywhere close to the city.

Also, let's consider that the airport was unusable and the nearest airfield where military transports could land was several hours away by truck.

This addresses the situation immediately after the disaster. Could more have been done? Surely... but why wasn't it?

This SHOULD have been a textbook exercise in disaster recovery. Disaster recovery does not start when the storm moves away... disaster recovery starts BEFORE it hits.

It appears that they had no plan, people didn't know what to do, where to go, or what to expect. For this, I blame the mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Lousiana.

In the IT industry, we routinely practice what-ifs. When I worked in the insurance industry, we practiced what-ifs. What if a disaster hits this city, what do we do? Where do we go? Where do we house our relief people? How do we get them there? Do we have alternate locations we can move to if the situation warrants? Do we have resources that are far enough outside the disaster area that we can count on? And the questions go on and on until we are satisfied that we have all the bases covered.

Someone did not do their homework BEFORE the disaster. Compound this with delayed requests for help and it's a recipe for death and destruction that could have been lessened.

Will there be some lessons learned from this? I certainly hope so.

You took personal what I was saying generally there Ail.

Sorry Fan

1) Agreed!!

2) Refused, and had the means, they've accepted the consequences...not enough was done to utilize public trans for those unable to leave.



3) Agreed, but looters should have been mostly ignored, lives needed to be saved first and foremost. But I agree, deadly force against those inhibiting relief efforts.

4) No real comment, not usre who your referring to...but I like the sentiment.

5) From all accounts State officials are as much to blame as anyone.

6) Howard Dean is the stuff that sticks to the bottom of your shoe while walking through a pasture full of cattle.....Like Bush or not, we need to fix the system so it can respond to crisis, end of story. The scariest thing about this whole thing to me is how unprepared the US is for a natural disaster or terrorist attack.

This isn't a time for partisan finger pointing...we need to make sure this never happens again (the poor response that is) as Americans.

Aye, fix the system and ignore the politics atm.

I agree...

Ahhh the rapper I'm referring to is Kayne West. Garbage , garbage, garbage...

Fandros

It's moments like this that I realize how freaking old I am (only 30) in comparison to today's youth. I have no clue who this rap guy was until his moment of infamy.

The most important point anyone has brought up in these several pages of finger pointing and political blamestorming is that it doesn't matter who is to blame right now....let's do what we can right now and fix it and then blame last.

from shanno:] Come on.. The major bitch on the "Nobody Helps us" sites was because of the bullshit that was spewed forth when it took the US "48"hours to respond to the Tsunami.

No, the major bitch was that the amount of aid offered was so small in the wake of such a large disaster ($15 mil, IIRC). After another week or so, the amount of aid was increased following this criticism.
[from Fandros:] EPA among other overblown orgs are far too short sighted in the name of political gain.
Worse, politics and policies too often dictate how the EPA reacts to scientific findings (e.g., cherry picking what's preferable to an administration while ignoring conflicting -- often overwhelmingly so -- evidence. We're seeing the same thing now with the FDA and the 'morning after' pill.
1) The Gov didn't issue a mandatory evac until early Sunday...TOO LATE
An earlier evac declaration might have saved some lives. It's hard to say, since so many of those who remained behind either refused to leave or lacked the means. Or were tourists stuck when all rental cars, Greyhounds, etc had left. But, too, where was FEMA/DHS? News crews were heading into the city directly following the hurricane.
2) To damn many folks refused to leave, and are still refusing to leave. How much time is wasted on these folks?
Way too many refused to leave, no doubt. And no doubt many have paid a high price for their foolishness. However, leaving now isn't that easy. Even with evacuation efforts underway, it's a slow process when dealing with tens of thousands of people.
3) Martial law should've been enforced early on. All looters armed shot on sight. Levy engineers being shot at while rebuilding the levies? wth
Arguably so, though I'm not sure who would give the "shoot on sight" orders. Also, once you open that can of worms, a lot of mistakes can be made with regard to just who gets shot and who doesn't (with the Brazilian guy in London being a good example from another situation).
4) All these Hollywood armchair politicians , including that rapper from the other night, running their worthless mouths? How bout shutting up and putting feet on the ground at ground zero losers?
Ooohhh, Hollywood hate, how cliche`. Look, responding to natural disasters requires a measure of training that people in Hollywood are unlikely to have. What they can do, and they do it well, is raise money. Whatever you want to say about Kanye's comments, he was playing a role in hurricane relief. I just came from a large convention in Atlanta attended by a variety of notables from sci-fi/fantasy/horror TV and movies. They charged $20 a pop for autographs, with all proceeds going to hurricane relief. Tricia Helfer (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1065454/) won't be chucking sandbags around with her too thin figure, but she can pull in a few grand for the cause.
5) Also, our nation is set up such that the State is supposed to request aid. The Gov didn't request till when? In my mind much of the confusion twixt State/federal lies at this level.
Blanco declared (http://gov.louisiana.gov/2005%20%20proclamations/48pro2005-Emergency-HurricaneKatrina.pdf) a state of emergency on the 26th. The White House recognized (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html) the state of emergency the following day. You may (hell, are probably) right that there's confusion of some sort between state and federal emergency management. I don't think LA was in any position to go solo on a disaster of this magnitude, however.

Dear Gandaar:

Does that 'lack of preparation' on New Orleans' end in any way excuse the fact that Brown and Chertoff claim that they *did not know* for over two days that New Orleans was flooding when it was being broadcast live on every TV station in the country, and internationally as well? They head FEMA and Homeland Security, isn't it their job to pay some semblance of attention to natural disasters in progress? That it took *four* days to get buses in to start getting people out, five before they were actually moved? (it doesn't take four days to drive from *Seattle* to NO). That numerous offers had been made and trucks were ready to roll from New York and other states on Monday, but that the requests languished at FEMA for four days? That the Federal response, when it did come, was more focused on 'containment' than aid and rescue, so that hundreds, perhaps thousands, died in the city, many while being held in the Superdone and Convention Center without food or water *at gunpoint* and all the while aid from the Red Cross and other organizations was not *allowed* into the city (and still isn't, as they would rather people starve to death than remain in the city, even though there are always those who will not leave)? That, even now, FEMA is dragging its feet at releasing thousands of trailers kept in Atlanta for the homeless in Mississippi over paperwork issues?

I'd like to add that Michael Chertoff, when advised last Thursday that several thousand people were stuck at the Convention Center without food or water, and asked what would be done about them, replied "We don't respond to rumors" (mind you, numerous journalists, the mayor, and other folks had confirmed the situation, one reporter even taking a *taxi* over there to document it on videotape).

Yes, I'm aware of all the arguments that New Orleans could have done more, that Louisiana could have had a better evacuation/response plan in place, etc. Some of this is true (the failure to commandeer the buses to evacuate people, as spelled out in the contingency plan, once the city began flooding, is a case in point); but it is also true that laws put in place detailing the rights/responsibilities of FEMA and Homeland Security as of 2003 place the authority to take action squarely in their hands. The federal government *knew* that there was a mounting catastrophe as a result of the levee damage by Monday, had been asked for help by that night, other states were asking to send aid, the Red Cross was asking to send aid, and what happened was... nothing. Sure, New Orleans could have been better prepared, but once the scale of the disaster became apparent and the mayor and Governor *asked* for help, that help should have been mobilized immediately. There's *no* excusable reason for why it shouldn't have; 10,000 National Guard troops were in Florida within 24 hours after Katrina hit there, and it was only a Cat 1. We know that, in this case, it *wasn't* mobilized immediately, and that beyond that, that offers of aid from other states were initially *refused*, as were offers from other countries.

This was a disaster of an unprecedented scale, made worse because of the sheer incompetence and arrogance of the Federal authorities who had the ultimate responsibility, and authority, to deal with this situation, and Michael Brown in fact reassured the public on last Sunday that FEMA was ready for Katrina. I don't give a rat's ass about people's political affiliations in such a situation, and neither should anyone else involved with in the handling of such a tragedy - but I can't *help* but thinking, after having watched this spectacle unfold, if part of the reason downtown New Orleans was allowed to languish in such incredible misery for so long wasn't 1) that old boogeyman, racial/socioeconomic fear - that the hurricane victims, if they were still there, must be there for suspect reasons and needed to be 'contained' above all else - even feeding or rescuing them; 2)
to 'punish', in some sick way, their Democratic mayor, Governor, and Senator. That may sound like I'm reaching for the tinfoil hat, but in this case the ignorance/arrogance/incompetence was just so high, the mismanagement so bad, that it begs the question: Did the directors of FEMA and Homeland Security fiddle, as it were, while Rome burned?

This: http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4925
is an interesting essay written yesterday by a local New Orleans conservative Republican talk radio host. He is no fan of Nagin or Blanco, and has ruthlessly and frequently criticized them, but there's no question of whom he holds responsible for the major failures in this instance. I found this section particularly interesting:

FEMA also displayed incredible bureaucratic mismanagement. According to Broussard, FEMA prevented water shipments from reaching the parish before the storm, stopped aid shipments after the storm and cut phone lines of emergency personnel. Jefferson Parish Sheriff Harry Lee had to post deputies to protect the parish’s communication network from being destroyed by FEMA, our own federal government!

What *possible* interest would be served by cutting the communication lines of local emergency responders on the ground in the city? I'll leave that one for you folks to ponder...

Regards,
Nydia

You can read the National Response Plan (http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf) here. On page 43 is a section titled "Proactive Federal Response to Catastrophic Events." From this section (emphasis mine):

Implementation of Proactive Federal Response Protocols



Protocols for proactive Federal response are most likely to be implemented for catastrophic events involving chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, or high-yield explosive weapons of mass destruction, or large magnitude earthquakes or other natural or technological disasters in or near heavily populated areas.

Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response
Guiding principles for proactive Federal response include the following:
■ The primary mission is to save lives; protect critical infrastructure, property, and the environment; contain the event; and preserve national security.
■ Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of
catastrophic magnitude.
■ Identified Federal response resources will deploy and begin necessary operations as required to commence life-safety activities.
■ Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources. States are urged to notify and coordinate with local governments regarding a proactive Federal response.
■ State and local governments are encouraged to conduct collaborative planning with the Federal Government as a part of "steady-state" preparedness for catastrophic incidents.

Implementation Mechanisms for Proactive
Federal Response to Catastrophic Events
The NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement (described in the Catastrophic Incident Annex) addresses resource and procedural implications of catastrophic events to ensure the rapid and efficient delivery of resources and assets, including special teams, equipment, and supplies that provide critical lifesaving support and incident containment capabilities. These assets may be so specialized or costly that they are either not available or are in insufficient quantities in most localities. The procedures outlined in the NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement are based on the following:
■ The pre-identification of Federal assets and capabilities;
■ The strategic location of pre-identified assets for rapid deployment; and
■ The use of pre-scripted mission assignments for Stafford Act declarations, or individual agency authority and funding, to expedite deployment upon notification by DHS (in accordance with procedures established in the NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement) of a potential catastrophic event.
I believe this plan was set up and approved by the Bush administration -- certainly a good move. But it's only effective if followed.

Nydia quoted a conservative talk show host speaking about events in Jefferson Parish. The president of Jefferson Parish spoke on Meet the Press a couple days ago, breaking down at the end:
Sir, they were told like me. Every single day. The cavalry is coming. On the federal level. The cavalry is coming. The cavalry is coming. The cavalry is coming. I have just begun to hear the hooves of the cavalry. The cavalry is still not here yet, but I have begun to hear the hooves and were almost a week out.

Three quick examples. We had Wal-mart deliver three trucks of water. Trailer trucks of water. Fema turned them back, said we didn't need them. This was a week go. We had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a coast guard vessel docked in my parish. The coast guard said come get the fuel right way. When we got there with our trucks, they got a word, FEMA says don't give you the fuel. Yesterday, yesterday, fema comes in and cuts all our emergency communications lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in. he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards said no one is getting near these lines.
...
The guy who runs this building I'm in. Emergency management. He's responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said. Are you coming. Son? Is somebody coming? And he said yeah. Mama. Somebody's coming to get you.. Somebody's coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody's coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody's coming to get you on Thursday. Somebody's coming to get you on Friday. And she drowned Friday night. And she drowned Friday night. Nobody's coming to get us. Nobody's coming to get us. The Secretary has promised. Everybody's promised. They've had press conferences. I'm sick of the press conferences. For god's sakes, just shut up and send us somebody.

Taleren

As an American I have a right to speak my mind about such matters. You being a military guy (who's still enlisted as far as the last time we spoke), are trained to take the word of your commanders blindly and follow. As a citizen, I have the right to not follow him blindly. I can support the troops like you, Gheric, my brother in law, Shancc, etc. without supporting all the choices made by Bush.

You are right, you can support the troops and not support Bush. That was not my point. My point is, that I know you are not a uneducated person, and to say that Bush could give a shit about poor minorities without even a sniff of proof, is bullshit, and spitefull. In addition, just because I am in the military, I do not follow orders without question. You know me, and should realize that I am not a robot.

Ail...
Anyone...ANYONE drooling over this disaster is unequivically an asshole. Anyone saying that being critical of Bush, his policies and his administration surrounding this disaster is drooling over this disaster...is an asshole. Hopefully that is not what you are saying....so it wouldn't apply to you

That is what I am saying, so I guess that makes me an asshole. But to sit here and say that all this misery is Bush's fault is a joke. It will only be a matter of days before you see some nut come out and say that Bush had secretly built a hurricane machine so that he could divert the media attention from Iraq and Cindy "where is all the damn media??" Sheehan. There are politicians that are drooling over this.. call me an asshole if you will.. but it is the way of the wolves....

Thor..
No, the major bitch was that the amount of aid offered was so small in the wake of such a large disaster ($15 mil, IIRC). After another week or so, the amount of aid was increased following this criticism.


Ok, I will agree there, but when that aid was offered, there was still alot about the devastation about the tsunami that we did not know about. There was so much damage and death that was unknown about it until at least a week after. Not to mention, the tsunami occurred on X-mas eve. If I am not mistaken, when the 15 million was sent, they were told that there was more on the way.

Ok, I will agree there, but when that aid was offered, there was still alot about the devastation about the tsunami that we did not know about. There was so much damage and death that was unknown about it until at least a week after. Not to mention, the tsunami occurred on X-mas eve. If I am not mistaken, when the 15 million was sent, they were told that there was more on the way.
I think that initial reports justified promise of a lot more money, but it's not a major quibble. If I discovered that the original 15 million dried up days before more aid was offered I'd call foul, but I've not seen anything to suggest that.

From your response to Ailwon:
It will only be a matter of days before you see some nut come out and say that Bush had secretly built a hurricane machine so that he could divert the media attention from Iraq and Cindy "where is all the damn media??" Sheehan.
I've seen at (http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/9/22005b.asp) least (http://www.visionamerica.us/) two leaders of Christian groups blame the hurricane on gays, making Katrina an "act of God" in the most literal sense. The second guy requires a subscription to read his news letter, but here's an excerpt:
After September 11, 2001, "God bless America" was on everyone's lips. But what, exactly, are we asking God to bless - a nation moving a breakneck speed toward homosexual marriage, a nation awash in pornography, a nation in which our children are indoctrinated in perversion in the public schools, a nation in which most public displays of The Ten Commandments are considered offensive to the Constitution, a nation in which the elite does all in its considerable power to efface our Biblical heritage?

We are sowing the wind. Surely, we shall reap the whirlwind.

One other factor which must be considered: Days before Katrina nearly wiped New Orleans off the map, 9,000 Jewish residents of Gaza were driven from their homes with the full support of the United States government. Could this be a playing out of prophesy ("I will bless that nation that blesses you, and curse the nation that curses you")?
And lest you think these folks are fringe characters on the order of Fred Phelps, note the guest list at the Countering the War on Faith (http://www.visionamerica.us/cwofreg.asp) conference the second fellow is holding.

The nuts are already out there, and they're a lot more influential than a hypothetical "Bush-built hurricane machine" promoter.

Hopefully we are just mis-communicating Shanno, because you certainly don't come off as an asshole.

First, as I've said, pointing fingers and laying blame is way pre-mature. Let's save and rebuild some lives first. Even after it may not be constructive to point fingers....but even so, being critical of Bush's administration, or Bush himself, does not mean the person is "drooling" about the loss of life, limb, and property in NO. To indicate that anyone being critical of Bush is happy this tragedy occured is assinine....but I don't think that is what your saying.

But to sit here and say that all this misery is Bush's fault is a joke.

I'm very critical of how the Bush admin has handled this tragedy, and I'm certainly not happy it occurred. I recognize there's going to be a lot of areas to place blame, locally and nationally, there were a lot of balls dropped. Anyone using this for politcal gain right now...is an ass, I agree. This is not the time.

Once the lives have been saved, the town rebuilt...and safe. Things need to change in a big way.

i dont understand the "no one is helping us!" thing that is going on, i know swedens national emergency agency (roughly translated) mobilized pretty early (1-2 days after the destruction started) and waited for a call for aid. they had a hercules plane waiting with water cleansers and aid personell, they also had temporary relief tents for people to sleep in etc. but your officials claimed they didnt have the infrastructure to recieve and utilize the aid properly. im not saying they lied or whatever, im just saying dont say we didnt try.

It's not that Wiggo, your countries aid is VERY Appreciated.

The problem being is the infrastructure that should have been set up by the State Gov prior to the Hurricane never happened.

There's plenty of help, more needed mind you, but hard to find where to apply said help in some cases.

Fandros

It will be interesting when all is said and done to find out what offers were gratefully accepted and what were turned away, and maybe get some rationale for the choices. Russia and Cuba were both immediately ready and offering help, but will that ever be accepted? Israel's offer of medical staff and field hospitals has not been decided on either, as far as anything I have heard. We have already seen the fiascos on state levels with Fema tripping over it's own red tape, so the international level is probably going to have just as many screwups, whether due to communication, politics, or someone forgetting to return a phonecall.

If the data is not classified secret, that is....:rolleyes:

Ya Wiggo your countrys offering of help put a smile on my face but I don't think the US government even understands how to except the help sadly and hell look at the fiasco with all the trucks ready to deliver goods but FEMA isn't saying send them in. Pretty fucked up if you ask me.

The number one and two people to blame for the lack of response, is first, the Mayor, second, the Governor. State handles this shit first, then the Federal Government. The state didn't do a damn thing, they should have hand emergency plans in place first. Just saying ah well fuck the Feds will help out if it's bad is not an adequate plan. As they're seeing now, but hey it's always easier to blame up, rather than accept responsibility

That's true to a point, but it gets tiresome hearing FEMA say they didn't offer such and such support because it was never officially asked for. You would think when it came to saving lives and property, you would take some initiative and send in what was needed.

To hear the NO mayer talk about it, he claims he was asking for help from day 1.

What is FEMA's job? Hint: The job is not to sit on its ass and wait for the clearly visible shit on the horizon to hit the fan. FEMA does not have to wait for state requests, as the National Response Plan I linked to clearly points out. Both Blanco and Bush declared the area an emergency before the storm even hit, thus placing the situation squarely in the hands of both state and federal emergency management. States were ready to send National Guard troops to LA before the storm hit, but despite Blanco accepting the offer (e.g., from Richardson of New Mexico), paperwork delays (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_national_guard) in Washington delayed the process for days.

Nagin and Blanco may not be entirely free of blame in handling this situation, but they didn't cut millions from budgets meant to protect NO against just this kind of event, and they aren't disaster management experts.

Of course, neither is the head of FEMA -- Michael Brown -- who received his position due to political patronage. His previous management position involved overseeing horse shows for the International Arabian Horse Association, a position from which he was fired due to mismanagement. Fortunately, he used to be a college roommage of the previous head of FEMA, Joe Allbaugh, and now here he is.

I wonder which medal Bush will give him when this is over.

Nydia:

You make some very valid points and I mostly agree with you... and most others here. I was trying to point out that a lot of people are/were expecting relief to be there within 24-48 hours. It just doesn't work that fast.

As you can see with the current situation regarding the apparent footdragging that FEMA is in the midst of, even the best laid plans don't always work out.

Who is "at fault"? People can point fingers at each other until the sun ceases to shine and it's not going to change the fact that LOTS of people died and many, many thousands lost their homes and all they had in the world.

I spent almost a year in Miami, FL after hurricane Andrew and have seen the devastation firsthand. Even during Andrew there was a great deal of confusion, frustration and anger because the situation was not handled quicker.

It all comes down to this....

If it's finger pointing they want, then start at home and work your way up from there.

1. The people who lived there knew they lived in a city was mostly below sea level and the water was held back by a series of levees.
2. Those same people were told to evacuate and didn't.
3. The city of New Orleans does not appear to have had any workable disaster recovery plans in place. The were not acting, they were REACTING.
4. The state of Lousiana should have acted sooner whether the mayor of New Orleans did or not.
5. The President should have declared the area as a disaster area quicker than he did.
6. FEMA should have been sending resources there before they did.
7. Governmental red tape has killed a great number of people.... unfortunately, it's not the first time nor will it be the last.
8. I'm sure I am leaving out numerous points here, but you get the idea......

Who did what to whom, when and how, is not the important issue here. The priorities are to get the surviviors out of the area, begin recovery efforts of the deceased, begin cleanup efforts in the city and work toward finding a place for the displace people to live.

The most important thing that should come out of this is to LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES.

Will that happen? Probably not. What we will wind up with is a shakeup in the local government in New Orleans, maybe some heat for the governor and some redirection for FEMA and more government paperwork and red tape.

No matter what the disaster, no matter how well prepared people are, there is always going to be that confusion and disorientation that comes with crisis. This catastrophic event should tell us that we did not have people trained in crisis management in the proper places and FEMA is not providing a rapid response in time of need. After this settles down, a cold hard look needs to be directed at how FEMA does their job and locate the bottlenecks they encounter.

On the whole, I agree with you... I think we need to get past the fingerpointing and move in a positive direction.

*tosses two coppers into the hat*

My biggest disapointment at the moment is how incredibly inept the Mayor of New Orleans is. I listen to the man talk, to Oprah and others, and I think to myself "dahell is he still getting quality crack from?"

Ahhhh and Oprah....special place in hell awaits that manipulator...

Fandros

On a positive note Utah took several hundred folks from N.O. Many of them are receiving housing help and are speaking of settling down here. Also they are being taken out shopping to resettle. Jobs are also being lined up.

I assume this is true for all states that stepped up to the plate. It's really good to see the positive side of human nature.

Fandros

We started getting our first arrivals to Pennsylvania yesterday. About 5,000 made their way to Philly. I saw somewhere today that most Americans (those polled) think that N.O. will never recover.

Well, did some research on that Fil. Regardless of what we think we need New Orleans right where it is. It's one of the, if not THE, largest naval seaports to service the lower central US. Now perhaps it would be wise to build a huge retaining seawall and maybe reengineer the levies before they rebuild the city proper. But the seaport is vital to the Mississippi.

Fandros

After reading many first hand reports, I have come to some conclusions about the so called "looter" problem. I think the powers that be in NO were downplaying the severity of the situation, and trying to control looting. Later we learned that most of the looters were people who were starving, thirsty, needing medications, needing toiletries, needing baby food and they were "looting" walmarts, walgreens, grocery stores, liquor stores. Granted, I read a story about someone coming out of a mall with arm loads of expensive purses, but the law enforcement was prohibiting people who were in dire need from getting the basic necessities they needed, because it was stealing. It's scary to think that law enforcement can't use a little common sense to realize they don't need to protect the grocery store from starving, dying people. Go protect the levee repair crew from snipers.

There are about 400 refugees in a nearby shelter. Also, Duke (and, I think, one or two other local universities) are taking in students gratis, while the already overloaded Wake County school system is working to speed enrollment of refugee children. No shortage of fund raisers for $$ and supplies as well -- a few rays of light penetrating the clouds.

One of my guildmates is a facility program manager for mass transit in Houston. He was telling us some stories yesterday, very sad stuff. He has been working 14hr days busing, trucking, and convoying people from shelters to airports and shelters in the Houston area.

One other guildmate is a nurse who is currently on leave but trying to volunteer to get there. She is completely frustrated b/c her hospital is trying work with FEMA to get the nurses and doctors to shelters but apparently FEMA is saying they don't need any even when people on TV are asking for more. They apparently have a waiting list at her hospital for doctors and nurses who want to volunteer but can't.

It's a similar thing here where I work. The higher ups are organizing and taking names and guaranteeing your job will still be here when you get back. You can use PTO but if you don't have enough they won't pay you. And you're responsible for your own transportation.

Here is some correspondence from the VP of Care Management for where I work.



The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) is seeking the help of the nation’s hospitals to help staff and manage emergency medical shelters for victims of Hurricane Katrina. HHS will work through the various state hospital associations to coordinate this effort.

<name> has been asked by the Hospital and Health System Association of Pennsylvania (HAP) to solicit the names of healthcare professionals who would be willing to volunteer their professional services to staff these emergency medical shelters. HAP is working with the American Hospital Association (AHA), the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency (PEMA), and the PA Department of Health (DOH) to coordinate physician, nurse, and allied health professional volunteer information in Pennsylvania.

We are developing a web site accessible through <our website> that will allow our employees, affiliated physicians, and other healthcare professionals in the community who wish to volunteer to register for service. This web site will be available by the end of business today. We expect it will evolve over the next few weeks as an important source of information regarding our organization’s response to this disaster. We will forward this information regarding potential volunteers to HAP who, with PEMA and DOH, will develop teams of volunteer health professionals for deployment to the affected regions.

There are still many unanswered questions regarding the coordination of the medical response effort at the state and federal levels. A significant part of HAP’s efforts is focused on the collection of volunteer information. Questions remain in regard to:

· What type of information will be needed such as licensure, specialities, social security number, etc. (our web site will not collect social security numbers).

· Mechanism for verification of credentials.

· Details regarding necessary inoculations and other health-status needs.

· Liability and indemnification issues.

· Transportation and logistics. At this time the federal government has not made a commitment to provide transportation or reimbursement for volunteers.

We appreciate the outpouring of concern, generosity, and compassion within our health care community and individuals’ willingness to disrupt their lives to assist with this catastrophic event. <name> Health will work closely with HAP to assure our services and donations are used in a timely and meaningful manner.

Please feel free to email (xxxxx) or call (xxxxx) if you have any questions or suggestions



Here is more, this one was a bit earlier than the one above...



A number of <name> Health staff members have expressed an interest in volunteering their medical and non-medical services to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina.

This morning a meeting was held with approximately 30 representatives of <several area hospitals>

, the PA Department of Health (DOH),County Emergency Management Agency (EMA), the County Red Cross, and other local disaster relief agencies. We reviewed information provided by the federal and state governments, the Hospital Association of Pennsylvania (HAP), and heard front-line reports from staff of the American Red Cross. This group has meet on a bimonthly basis for over 3 years developing a regional medical disaster response system. We will continue to meet on a frequent basis over the next few weeks monitoring this tragic situation but can offer the following recommendations to our organizations.

Staff members who want to volunteer non-medical services should contact the Chapter of the American Red Cross at <number>. The federal government has advised hospitals that requests for volunteers for medical services will be coordinated by the various state hospital associations. Staff members who want to volunteer their medical services are encouraged to contact the Hospital and Health System Association of Pennsylvania (HAP) in Harrisburg at (717) 564-9200. Although the need for medical personnel is undefined at this time, HAP has indicated that they, in conjunction with PEMA and DOH, will coordinate the medical efforts for the state. HAP has also stated it will establish a 1-800 hot line to coordinate volunteer requests.



staff members interested in volunteering should coordinate there time away with their department director. It is important to balance the needs of the communities with those of the victims of this disaster. We have been advised by the American Red Cross that volunteers should expect to serve no less than 3 weeks at a time.



If staff members volunteer, they must use PTO. If they have no PTO, they may be granted a leave of absence which keeps their benefits intact. Volunteers who provide professional services must recognize that they are not covered by malpractice insurance.



If you wish to aid relief efforts in the areas affected by Hurricane Katrina, you may want to consider making a donation to the American Red Cross’ National Disaster Relief Fund. Anyone wanting to donate should send their check as follows:

Made out to: American Red Cross

Memo: National Disaster Relief Fund (preferably) or Hurricane Katrina.

You may mail or drop off your donation to:

County Chapter - American Red Cross

<address>

For more information, go to www.redcross.org (http://www.redcross.org/). You may make donations using this web site but we’ve been advised that you will receive more timely notification of your donation if it is made to the local chapter.

The need for medical and non-medical volunteers in the disaster area is expected to be significant for a number of months.


As more information becomes available and specific medical needs are defined, we will keep you advised of any coordinated efforts or how individuals can be most helpful in this time of national need.





Sorry for the edits, I don't want any stalkers. I'm sure it's the same for other hospitals and healthcare organizations throughout the country. We're pretty big but definitely not the biggest I know.

So far, we are taking in 3,000 to be housed at the Camp Ripley base for up to 45 days while more long-term housing is found. Also, the University of Minnesota is taking in some students.

As far as the looting, they showed clips on the news of police allowing people into stores to get food and water and necessary items, so saying they were not letting people get basic necessities is not a good general statement, tho maybe true in many cases; and, they were also discussing this morning how a gang from Baton Rouge area had moved into NO to try to accumulate some goodies after seeing the news reports of the anarchy, so since these folks could be classified as insurgents at that point the shoot to kill order seems justified.

Interesting story here (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.%2020050906.wxstormstronach06/BNStory/National/) about Canadian zillionaire Frank Stronach's bid to bring 300 refugees to a groom and thoroughbred training facility of his in Palm Beach, there to remain until he builds a trailer park for them back in LA.

LOL, just was watching rerun of last night's Daily Show, and correspondent Ed Helm was discussing the Bush plan to build a dam in Arkansas, to fight the water there, so they would not have to fight it in New Orleans.

Well, it was funny when he told it:p

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179587/site/newsweek/


dont know if anyone has posted this yet but its a good read

Some talk going around about FEMA denying the media access (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8045532/#050907c) to the city:

...An interesting dynamic is taking shape in this city, not altogether positive: after days of rampant lawlessness (making for what I think most would agree was an impossible job for the New Orleans Police Department during those first few crucial days of rising water, pitch-black nights and looting of stores) the city has now reached a near-saturation level of military and law enforcement. In the areas we visited, the red berets of the 82nd Airborne are visible on just about every block. National Guard soldiers are ubiquitous. At one fire scene, I counted law enforcement personnel (who I presume were on hand to guarantee the safety of the firefighters) from four separate jurisdictions, as far away as Connecticut and Illinois. And tempers are getting hot. While we were attempting to take pictures of the National Guard (a unit from Oklahoma) taking up positions outside a Brooks Brothers on the edge of the Quarter, the sergeant ordered us to the other side of the boulevard. The short version is: there won't be any pictures of this particular group of guard soldiers on our newscast tonight. Rules (or I suspect in this case an order on a whim) like those do not HELP the palpable feeling that this area is somehow separate from the United States.

At that same fire scene, a police officer from out of town raised the muzzle of her weapon and aimed it at members of the media... obvious members of the media... armed only with notepads. Her actions (apparently because she thought reporters were encroaching on the scene) were over the top and she was told. There are automatic weapons and shotguns everywhere you look. It's a stance that perhaps would have been appropriate during the open lawlessness that has long since ended on most of these streets. Someone else points out on television as I post this: the fact that the National Guard now bars entry (by journalists) to the very places where people last week were barred from LEAVING (The Convention Center and Superdome) is a kind of perverse and perfectly backward postscript to this awful chapter in American history...

Some details (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090702125.html) on the upcoming Congressional review panel regarding Katrina:
[Republicans] rejected Democratic appeals to model the panel after the Sept. 11 commission, which was made up of non-lawmakers and was equally balanced between Republicans and Democrats. That commission won wide praise for assessing how the 2001 terrorist attacks occurred, and for recommending changes in the government's anti-terrorism structure. House and Senate GOP leaders announced the "Hurricane Katrina Joint Review Committee," which will include only members of Congress, with Republicans outnumbering Democrats by a yet-to-be-determined ratio. The commission, which will have subpoena powers, will investigate the actions of local, state and federal governments before and after the storm that devastated New Orleans and other portions of the Gulf Coast.


"Congress is actively responding to the disaster caused by Hurricane Katrina," House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) said in a statement released during an appearance attended only by Republicans, after an all-GOP planning session.


The announcement came a day after President Bush said his administration would conduct an investigation into the Katrina response and House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) ordered the House Government Reform Committee to suspend plans for immediate hearings. Democrats denounced both actions, and they called the Frist-Hastert plan inadequate. They vowed to push their own proposals for helping the storm's victims and investigating government agencies' responses.

A Republican-led Congress cannot be trusted to make a thorough investigation of a Republican administration, said Senate Minority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.). "Democrats strongly prefer that the response to Hurricane Katrina be investigated by a commission of independent experts like the 9/11 commission," he said.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said the new commission "is not truly bipartisan, will not be made up of equal numbers of Democrats and Republicans, cannot write legislation and will not have bipartisan subpoena power."

Pelosy is the last person I'd credit with a viable opinion. She's a nutbag of the highest order.

Considering all the oversights being leveled at the 9/11 commission I'm unsure I'd want to model anything after it. Too much was politized and far too much "swept" aside...Able Danger being one possible huge situation of note.

Fandros

I don't think you have to trust Pelosi's opinion; you can judge the make up of the commission on its own merits/flaws. If you think a bipartisan commission independent of the Congress is politicized, what do you think of a GOP dominated panel capable of determining by majority vote what gets examined will be like?

The 9/11 commission wasn't free of political interference: Pat Roberts neutered its efforts in examining Bush's role in 9/11 (already delayed until after the elections), and attempts by 9/11 panel members to reconstitute their inquiry following the reveal of Able Danger (an affair I still can't form an opinion on) was similarly thwarted.

So, while 9/11 wasn't perfect, it still serves as a good model from which one can prune political interference. I trust such a design far more than I do one led by Congress, and the idea of Bush leading an inquiry involving himself is simply laughable.

So, while 9/11 wasn't perfect, it still serves as a good model from which one can prune political interference. I trust such a design far more than I do one led by Congress, and the idea of Bush leading an inquiry involving himself is simply laughable.


Agree with you here, but it's too bad when it comes to these commissions we can't get a true independent panel free of political bias to investigate. It wouldn't matter which party was holding the majority in Washington or in the White House I'm sure the finger pointing would still be going on.

They announced on tonight's news that 90 semi-trucks have so far been filled with donated goods and sent on their way to the affected gulf areas, and varied evacuee holding areas; said goods being clothes, toiletries, water, food, and whatever basic needs folks wanted to try to fill.

And the drop off locations are still getting swamped (mostly in the Minneapolis/St Paul area). Wish folks had this kind of heart all the time.

yep my gf has been all about this water thing they got going on here. she's been collecting money and buying up cases of water to take to the various donation points. my area has filled two semis with cases of water and they should be on their way today. I just hope it gets to the people it needs to get to.

it is true that human tragedy has a tendancy to bring out the best in people. I agree with you; it's sad people aren't always this kind.

The company I work for, Quad Graphics, supplied 16 trucks filled to the brim with goods donated in the Milwaukee area. Hope as well they don't get tied up in red tape and the good actually make it to the people.

This is an email from my brother and it sickens me. It's amazing how far apart we are in our views and what making a few hundred thousand a year does to some people. As well as that damn neocon church in Forsyth county.

sad, he totally forgot where he came from.

Hi,

I lay the problems of New Orleans in the lap of the local government and the local people. Look at the videos of buses under water. Buses that could have been used to evacuate people. Its was estimated that it would have only taken 2300 buses to evacuate 100K people in a single trip for each of the 2300 buses.

You have to asked yourself if this would have happen to our grand parents. I bet not. They did not expect hand outs from the government. They saved, and prepared for the worst of time and problems.

After the storm, the people could of made their way out of the dome and organized themselves. They could have taken care of themselves, but they were looking for hand outs. This may be the very reason why they are "the poor". They did not get up and try to make things better for themselves.

In addition, it is not the federal governments place to enter a state. The state must ask for help. If the federal government was first on the scene in state matters, we would all be living under a military government. Thank God we do not, and that our fore fathers built our government around state rights/governments and federal military protection.

Stop blaming the federal government when the state and local government is at fault. The city of New Orleans had plenty of time to get the people out and to ask for help.


The only blaming that needs to be done is to blame the Mayor of New Orleans. It was his responsibility to arrange for the evacuation of his town people. You could also Blame "the poor" for not trying.

Have not much worst storm hit other parts of the US and did those people wait on death.

We see now that asking for help after the storm was to late.


My thoughts.

What part sickens you? The part where the blame is mostly on the local government? Or the poor being lazy?


As for his opinion of the poor, I am not going to agree there. Since I was not there watching the reactions and the "I expect handouts" mentality of the people, I cannot and will not make that assumption. I will have to say, that no matter if you are rich or poor, the safest place that you think there is in a crisis is in your home. I have never been in a situation where I would have to evacuate, so I cannot speculate. The worse we get here in Michigan where I live is the occasional Tornado or Blizzard. Nothing to evac over. So I can sympathize with some of the decisions to ride it out.

But his opinions of the government is dead on. It was a failure to enact a preplanned evacuation plan, and the short-sightedness of the local government to use all the local resources to help the people. Where I will fault the federal, and local government is the powerstruggle that does go on between the two. For example, look at this baseclosure stuff that is going on. The states want the federal government to fund them, but when they want to cut them out to save money, the States are suing. The point is made over and over that the National Guard is under the control of the Governers of that State. Only if the soldiers are activated and put on title 10 can be directed by the President.

Pay particular attention to paragraph 3....

Sec. 12406. National Guard in Federal service: call



Whenever - (1) the United States, or any of the Territories, Commonwealths, or possessions, is invaded or is in danger of invasion by a foreign nation;
(2) there is a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States; or
(3) the President is unable with the regular forces to execute the laws of the United States; the President may call into Federal service members and units of the National Guard of any State in such numbers as he considers necessary to repel the invasion, suppress the rebellion, or execute those laws. Orders for these purposes shall be issued through the governors of the States or, in the case of the District of Columbia, through the commanding general of the National Guard of the District of Columbia.

Source(Added Pub. L. 103-337, div. A, title XVI, Sec. 1662(f)(1), Oct.5, 1994, 108 Stat. 2994.)

So... I do blame the local government...because the governor could have activated the troops from day one in Lousiana, just like the governors from Mississippi and Alabama did.

Shanno

Except there was already a state of emergency, and a forseen disaster of this level after a hurricane of this force. As someone on the Interdictor site commented, it's almost like the government was waiting for a certain body count before helping out. Maybe going for a record for this administration?

Even if the mayor of NO and the Gov hopped the first plane out of town and weren't heard of for a week, never asking for any help, human decency and common sense should have sent aid in immediately. Nagin was on the news what, Tuesday or Wednesday asking for help? Even if that doesn't qualify as filling out the right form, there's his cry - the Federal government sat back and did...well....not a whole lot. I guess if you listen to Brown they didn't even know there was a problem until Thursday.

I hate party issues, and the whole party system is a load of crap that has hurt American politics. There's no way you can't look at this mess and not cry politics though. In this case, it's costing lives and the Republicans in power are still dragging their feet on what needs to be done. Not that I have much more faith in the Democrats, but I hope when all is said and done we see some major power shifts after this, a lot of public apologies, and a lot of people fired for watching others die.

The part that sickens me is him saying the blame could also be on the "poor". I thought that was made pretty clear in my post.

I took it that you were sickened by the whole post. I agree with you that it was not the "poor" people who were at fault and do think that was in poor taste.

For those that are curious.. read this post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/08/AR2005090801862_pf.html

The part that is interesting is...



Historically, practical as well as legal considerations have favored relying on leadership at the grass-roots level.

"The police and fire departments and local emergency-service people are, by definition, the first ones on the scene," said H.K. Park, a former defense official who worked on homeland security issues during the Clinton administration. "And they have the advantage of knowing their communities.

"There's also a legal dimension," he added, "involving states' rights versus federal rights."

Further, military forces remain constrained from a domestic law enforcement role by the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act. Though the Pentagon has committed more than 8,000 active-duty Army and Marine troops and about 10,000 sailors, it has made it clear that these forces will not perform police functions.

National Guard troops, now numbering more than 46,000, constitute a far larger share of the military presence in the disaster area. They bring two main advantages. First, they possess medical, engineering, communication and logistical skills required in relief work. Second, Guard units, when operating under the command of state governors, are not limited by Posse Comitatus.

Any move to assign greater responsibility to the Pentagon for domestic emergency management is likely to face resistance, particularly since the armed forces are already strained by the conflict in Iraq. Commanders remain sensitive to the notion of U.S. troops becoming an occupying force in their own country.

When Guard forces arrived in New Orleans late last week, Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, who is overseeing military operations in the region, ordered them to point their rifles down to reinforce the message they had come to provide assistance, not occupy the city.

Politically, too, the idea of an enhanced federal role may be a hard sell to some local and state officials if it means diminishing their authority. Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco resisted a Bush administration effort last week to exert federal control over all local police and state National Guard units.

Some experts also contend that an attempt to federalize a relief effort could backfire, resulting in less flexibility rather than more.

"You don't want to federalize the Guard," Park warned. "When Guard forces are controlled by the governor, they can engage




and for those that do not know about the Posse Comitatus Act..



20 Stat. L., 145

June 18, 1878

CHAP. 263 - An act making appropriations for the support of the Army for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, eighteen hundred and seventy-nine, and for other purposes.

SEC. 15. From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section And any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment.

10 U.S.C. (United States Code) 375

Sec. 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel:

The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

18 U.S.C. 1385

Sec. 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of
Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to
execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

The part that sickens me is him saying the blame could also be on the "poor". I thought that was made pretty clear in my post.

Call me a sicko, but in some instances I do think "the poor" bear at least some responsibility for their own well being (at least in the case of the able bodied). Take the convention center as an example. I realize the city officials told people to gather there in addition to the Superdome, but once reporters and others started showing up in land vehicles and buses didn't, why did no one make an effort to walk out of the city? Especially once the assaults, rapes, robberies, etc started up in earnest. Sure, that would not be an option for the infirm or very young, but there were an awful lot of able bodied citizens there from the video I have seen. Maybe I just haven't heard about it, but it appears to me *no one* there made any effort to organize things (collect and ration supplies, jury rig conveyances to assist others, maintain some semblance of order, etc). Everyone just sat there in misery for several days because they didn't think to rescue themselves. They would rather wait for someone else to take care of them.

Where were these people supposed to go?
A Hurricance the size of England hit their area, one that intensified from a Cat 1 to a Cat 5 in like 4 days.
"OMG GET OUT"
Fine... where to?
Where are these people supposed to go? They live in one of the Worst, if not THE worst, ghettos in America. Do you think they choose to live there? What exactaly are you thinking these peoples options are? Maybe a week or two at the Ritz Carelton? They live where they live because they have NO WHERE ELSE TO GO.
Its times like that this that makes me really believe there really are two Americas.

http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Uc=14ewb3ap.b147fdut&Uy=nyvoby&Ux=1

Photo Essay of the NOLA flood

Its times like that this that makes me really believe there really are two Americas.

Yeah, the one you live in, and the one the rest of us live in,we like to call it reality land...

Yea, sure.
But the reality of it is, with over a week of retrospection, you still cant tell me where these people were supposed to go.

Floating on down that river that is natural selection...

right
08 Sep 2005
SHELBIE, Veranisha and Tajihnea
Please contact me with any information on the whereabouts of these two 5 year old girls. Last seen in Chalmette. Mother''s first name: Melissa. Father: Derrick Shelbie of New Orleans.

http://www.nola.com/forums/searching/
http://home.tulsaconnect.com/everlast365/ndhforum/portal_content.asp

Seriously.. the early 1900s called, they want their failed ideology back.

Your ability to redirect mild humor into a tear jerker is admirable. I think Sally Struthers needs a co-host on Save the Children.

More seriously though, I doubt nature gave a rat's ass about little Jimmy and his toys over the last few million years as it hardened us into the dominant species on the planet.

Since you were citing Jared Diamond's Collapse earlier, I assume you've read Guns, Germs, and Steel? The point he made about natural selection and the people of tribal cultures is interesting to contrast to this NOLA situation isn't it?

There really is no need to "redirect mild humor" when the connotations of the joke are so very unfunny.

It is quite possible that you did not intend the overtones that are conjured when you bring up natural selection and the situation in New Orleans, they are, however, there.
When we look at the bodies and victims of people in New Orleans, what we see are almost invariably black people. When you say "Natural Selection", and there is no way around the racist backdrop of this theory, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism) what can be inferred is plainly clear.
1. The least able to survive in New Orleans died.
2. That determination was arrived at by racial characteristics.
3. The fate of these people was determined by genetics as much as floodwaters.

nature.... hardened us into the dominant species on the planet.
Here I think you are mistaken. It wasnt nature that propelled man to the position of dominance, rather our ability to live outside of the influence of nature. Our ability to insulate ourselves and to even prevail against it has created the wonder of human civilization. We have mastery over nature. This was truth since man first dropped the seeds of wheat into the Tigris river basin in hopes to grow his own food. However, like a man who mistreats a dog, mistreatment of the beast leads to violent collision. To live in nature is to be an animal, to live outside of it means to be Human.
This is why New Orleans will be rebuilt. We are not cockroaches who use up the resources of an area and move to another one. We will do what man has always done , we will do what makes us great. We will build. We throw our stakes in the ground and we shout that we will not be moved. Here is my land, and I will make it work for me. I will build dams, I will build skyscrapers, I will bring water to the desert and land to the ocean. I will break through all the barriers and uncover all the secrets, I will live in every climate and I will thrive, because we are the only species on the planet freed from the dominion of nature.
We will look at the problems of a city being where New Orleans is and we will overcome them. We do this because our survial as a species depends on us being able to do this.
"Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'"
We shout this at nature and God every time we build a skyscraper or move a river or level a mountain. And after New Orleans is rebuilt, we will shout it again and beat back any thing nature throws at it.

Since you were citing Jared Diamond's Collapse earlier, I assume you've read Guns, Germs, and Steel? The point he made about natural selection and the people of tribal cultures is interesting to contrast to this NOLA situation isn't it?
Im not sure of your point regarding GGS.
Diamond writes in GGS: History followed different courses for different peoples because of differences among peoples' environments, not because of differences among people themselves.
-Jared Diamond, Guns, Germs and Steel

Natural Selection, as I understand it, pretains to people being genetically disposed to survival or not. in that sense, the species best able to survive will in the end dominate and eventually destroy the other, i.e. Cro Magon and Neanderthal.
Diamond is saying the opposite. It is in fact the controllable and man made forces in an individuals life that determine his fate. In this sense the dooming factors of the people who died in NOLA were not inadequecies in DNA but in failures of a society to allow for equal opportunity of development of its citizens.

Natural selection is one of several factors involved in biological evolution, which in turn is the frequency of allele change over generations. In bringing up Social Darwinism, you're departing from the biological and proceeding into the sociological -- "survival of the fittest" is the term you're looking for, which comes to us courtesy of Herbert Spencer.

But while natural disasters or any change in environment can affect evolution of a species, humanity's ability to control its environment -- which L2 rightly noted -- counters in large part the various factors of evolution.

I don't have time to get more detailed on the evolution topic (but I want to) till later or tomorrow, but the bit of GGS I was talking about is on pages 18-22 in the introduction if you have it handy and want to take a look at it.

Ecological selection and sexual selection are typically considered subsets of natural selection. If you prefer Wells' work to Darwin's, that's all good, but it's fundamentally the same thing with different terminology (and about fifty years earlier than D).

A situation (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=361980&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ct=5) I'd hate to be in, even though it's arguably the right call.

Wow, that's just...wow. Gutsy, and after everything else that happened I'd be curious to see if they're ever charged with anything.

CNN had another interview with a doctor who was inside the stadium. The guy said he'd gone thinking he would assist other doctors, and when he got inside he was the only one there. In his words he said there weren't any officials inside, doctors, police or otherwise, and he had a few horror stories to tell. The more things I hear like this out of the hurricane the more I hope criminal charges are brought against those who were in power - Be it FEMA, Homeland Security, NO mayer, whoever screwed up.

I am not sure that a court would ever hand down indictments, let alone find a verdict of guilty, regarding these doctors doing what they thought was best for the patients in those circumstances.

There are too many similar stories, and the courts would be trying to untangle them for years if they were to try to prosecute. In one nursing home (I am pretty sure I have this right, and it might even be from a previous link here) they had thirty residents that were left to drown because it would have been more dangerous to try to move them. People were forced to make terrible decisions, and should never have had to be put in that position.

I think there are going to be heads rolling on this from the mayor and governor all the way up through the Bush administration. People screwed up, plain and simple.

What is still pissing me off is some of the Fox idiots trying to "spin" this, like Chris Wallace yesterday challenging the Democratic Senator from Louisiana with the 'fact' that Bush had asked for more funding than Clinton had for Levee work/repairs; he never said if the funds were granted, allocated, or used and not redirected to another Bush priority, he just made the issue that they were asked for as if that should be enough.

If nothing else comes of this, hopefully it will put the spotlight on the appointment process used in Washington, and bring some demands for qualified people to be put in positions of trust rather than friends and reward for services system currently in place.

Michael Brown seems to have resigned as head of FEMA.

http://www.dantrujillo.com/blog/fallonsword_award.gif

Just to be clear - I want criminal charges against the leaders who screwed this up and cost lives, not the doctors placed in terrible positions to make decisions like that. When FEMA drags their feet through red tape and other stupidity and costs lives, the government agency responsible for responding to disasters should be punished accordingly.

It would be the same as a malpractice suit against a doctor, or the new lawsuits popping up against teachers who didn't prepare students adequately for tests. If these people can legal repercussions for their actions, why shouldn't officials who failed to do their job, despite plenty of warning and asking for help?

Anyone else catch the quote from Chertoff blaming the media misreporting the hurricane damage as the reason for the lack of government response? That's the same as saying that Homeland Security, the group supposedly in place to protect us from future terrorist attacks, gets it's intelligence from the daily newspaper. Comforting, eh?

Where were these people supposed to go?

For those who are able, how about walk down the road the news reporters were coming from? To where there was some semblance of order and help *was* available in the form of transportation, food and water? Not to mention protection from lawlessness. I know I would not sit and hang around for four days with no supplies waiting for a bus to come pick me up when I could walk out in one day (assuming I am able bodied). Some people did take action to rescue themselves (see the teenager who grabbed a bus and drove himself and a lot of others all the way to Houston). He was hardly a rich kid. I also note that no one was being refused food, shelter, or other help even if they had no money. Using that as an excuse just doesn't fly.

A lot of people (not all of them poor) chose to stay in NO because they thought they could ride it out and didn't want to leave their homes. Hell, there's people that *still* don't want to leave. It's not a completely economic response, its an emotional response. I've been in the path of a hurricane before and people around me refused to evacuate then too, thinking they would be OK and wanting to "ride it out". It had absolutely nothing to do with lack of money (these were solidly upper middle class people).

I do have sympathy for the victims. They had been subjected to a lot of stress and many had lost family. I would not expect someone to think clearly in that circumstance. Many also had to stay to look after family who could not move on their own. But I also sense a lack of belief in themselves or at least a lack of self reliance. IMO that leads them to passively accept their condition without trying to help themselves out of the situation when it's clear that outside help is not imminent.

I read about some poor people who initially refused a helicopter ride out of their flooded home because they thought they'd have to buy a ticket. This is astonishing, and suggests that any of us would have a deeply difficult time truly understanding the mentality of many of the poorest victims of the hurricane. Can such people fathom escaping the city into what may be, for them, a lesser known quantity than their own flooded homes?

Don't forget, too, that the Chief of Police of adjoining Gretna turned back (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/10/national/nationalspecial/10emt.html) hundreds of evacuees, in order to prevent a migration of potential troublemakers into his back yard:
Police agencies to the south of New Orleans were so fearful of the crowds trying to leave the city after Hurricane Katrina that they sealed a crucial bridge over the Mississippi (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/mississippi/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) River and turned back hundreds of desperate evacuees, two paramedics who were in the crowd said. The paramedics and two other witnesses said officers sometimes shot guns over the heads of fleeing people, who, instead of complying immediately with orders to leave the bridge, pleaded to be let through, the paramedics and two other witnesses said. The witnesses said they had been told by the New Orleans police to cross that same bridge because buses were waiting for them there.


Instead, a suburban police officer angrily ordered about 200 people to abandon an encampment between the highways near the bridge. The officer then confiscated their food and water, the four witnesses said. The incidents took place in the first days after the storm last week, they said.

"The police kept saying, 'We don't want another Superdome,' and 'This isn't New Orleans,' " said Larry Bradshaw, a San Francisco paramedic who was among those fleeing.
There are those clearly culpable for their presence in NO during and after the flood, and there are those whose options were limited in any number of ways.


And there are assholes like Gretna Chief of Police Arthur Lawson, who only exacerbate the problem and should be stripped of their job.

I agree 100%. That account in particular is horrible. IMO the real ones responsible are the local authorities and politicians who acted very inappropriately.

That guy needs to be raked over the coals- but plenty of other municipalities had no such issues.

I'm VERY impressed by this. Many here know that I don't care for George W. Bush, but this impresses me more than I can express.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/katrina.impact/index.html

Watch the video a bit down the page. I see and hear what I feel to be genuine contrition in his voice. I honestly can't remember hearing him speak about a mistake he has made, and it makes me respect him more for it. Even moreso, I didn't even see the sly smile on his face while he spoke.

That's just coaching, dude.

We'll see if he can live up to this sudden act of sadness and apologizing, since last week the official line was that the government hadn't made mistakes.

Regarding the masses left in NO - remember that many of them did do what they were told and evacuated to the Superdome - conditions inside being one step away from hell. What was offered by the authorities wasn't much better than what they had out on the streets.

Nonpartisan report (http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/crskatrinarept91205.pdf) on the Katrina response. Pages 1-4 review the Stafford Act and provisions for emergency declaration, page 5 focuses on Blanco's declaration of emergency, Bush's declaration is on page 6, and so on.