Interesting, Kerry is calling on Bush to denounce the Swift Boat commericals....

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/19/kerry.attackads/index.html

But I never seen him come forward and Denounce Michael Moorer's lying sack of shit movie for doing the same thing the ads are doing to Kerry....

Ahhhhh how's it feel ya sad sack of dung. Reap what you have allowed to be sown Mr Kerry.

Fandros

What's the difference between a movie, shown to paying consumers and a commercial shown over public airwaves?

Anyone?...Bueller?


(edit: Had you denounced say... moveon.org, I'd tend to agree with you, as their ads are similar in flavor to the SBVT ads, however, unprovoked, the pointless Moore [M-O-O-R-E] bashing is a little tiring to say the least.)

Tiring perhaps to you Talid, but this is yer first election aye? So likely you've not the endurance nor understanding of the political machinations of both parties.

Keep the snide comments for your hallway buddies aight?

Fandros

Okay, while I'm sure you guys jaw on and on about politics while scratching yourselfs and aiming for the spittoon all day long around the raging bonfire that has been at the trailerpark for years and years, that doesn't make you a political expert.

Moore has nothing to do with political advertising, aside from using what little celebrity he has to throw his support behind a democratic candidate. You've repeatedly brought him up when it's irrelevant to the subject at hand and it made no sense in this context. Michael Moore makes movies. People pay to go to these movies, it's extremely unlikely that someone went to see Fahrenheit 9/11 unless they wanted to see it. The difference between a commercial on public airwaves and a movie released on dvd/video and in the theatres is this : you go see the movie if you want to, commercials - especially of this nature at this cycle of time in the US - are prevailent everywhere. People who maybe don't have the ability or initiative to go out and find out more about the issues are being spoonfed things that Kerry considers (slanderous perhaps) lies about his character.

You missed this story from two days earlier....

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/17/war.records.ap/index.html

Fil

Hundreds of millions of dollars spent in commericals that range from comparing Bush to Hitler, to accusing him of being AWOL and Bush just grins and bears it.

One donor from Texas with $150,000 helps make one anti-Kerry commercial and Kerry's campaign comes unglued. He's had to already "correct" his biography twice ? and refuses to answer the rest. Instead, it's all Bush's fault.

Someone said, "you know you're going to get an anal exam running for president, just bend over and get it over with."

What a pussy.

http://www.brendanloy.com/blog/images/kerry-football1sm.JPG

"Denounce" the ads and every Democrat from Stern to Carville will be hollering "suppression of free speech." It's just a trap for Bush; hopefully he won't fall into it.

What a pussy. You are a clown. What the fuck do you know about being tough? Or being a pussy?
Let me tell you something, Ive spent a good portion of my life struggling with this question. Let me impart some of the lessons ive learned.
My grandfather was bricklayer. He was old school Italian from Milan. Tough, blue collar, hard nosed. Old timers used to love to tell me stories of the fights he got into, how "tough" he was. At age 60 he was arrested for beating 2 30 year olds with the but of a shotgun in a bar parking lot. But ya, bars, bars and booze. My grandfather would lay brick 12-16 hours a day then go to the bars, get drunk and go home and beat my grandmother, until she died. Then after she died, around the time my father was 12, became his favorite target. This massively powerful man would wipe the floor with my father on a nightly basis, for years. My dad got into sports and boxing to get out of the house.. One day when he was 17 he stood up to my Grandfather and was thrown out of the house.
My Dad laid bricks for a while. Then he and my mom had me, so my dad decided he needed a better, more steady job, so he joined the State Police. I hear stories from Troopers all the time about my dad, how much respect they have for him. How "tough" he is. But I never understood the difference in the description of the two men.
One thing I learned was the nature of TOUGHNESS. Despite all that abuse, and all that anger, and all that horror. My father NEVER once hit me. Never hit my mom. Never cheated or left or failed in any his responsiblity as a man. Thats tough. Change is tough, Love is tough.
I chased what tough meant to me for YEARS of my life. So many stupid fucking fights, so many attempts to be "tough" when I had no concept of what it really meant. When I was senior in high school getting ready to go play ball , I remember my friend and I getting into a fight with a group of a couple Marines back and acting like tough guys in a local bar. They could not comprehend that they had got their ass kicked. The shattered illusion of thier belief in their own toughness became a lesson to me. I still chased it though, ripping the facemask off a teammate and punching him with it in practice, making me catch a suspension for a game. Still getting into fights trying to prove something. Dumb.

When I got older, I started to understand that the ideal of toughness was my father, not my grandfather. The only innate strength is the strength of the individual as so far as he can determine FOR HIMSELF who he wants to be.

I see ZERO toughness in Bush. I see an man who at every opportunity has had a life of privilage and when asked to overcome what the nature of it was, he failed. He took the easy road. Booze, Coke, halfassing his sworn duty. He was the son of rich and powerful man and he never had to EARN anything he had. Yale and Harvard on poor grades, 25% percentile on his pilot test, owner of oil company and baseball teams on OTHER peoples money. He was so moldable and able to be influenced, he is a FACE for Cheneys ideals. On the most core and base of my values Bush is repugnant. He becomes what others want him to be. There is nothing there. No real character, no real commitment. Just a charismatic puppet. Packaged and marketed and sold to the Conservative party to be everything they want him to be. And he can do it, because there is nothing there.
He wanted to prove his toughness and avoid the "wimp" factor that did his father in. So we go to war that COULD have been avoided. A man who has NO REAL CONCEPT OF WHAT BEING TOUGH IS. Is it any surprise that he picks such an inappropriate way to make his case?

So it makes me fucking sick when you paper tiger phony ass Neo Cons think you have some monopoly on toughness. Because for the most part, you havent got a fucking clue. Get a grip on yourself and learn to be a man, and when you do... someone go tell Bush
He’s a real nowhere man,
Sitting in his nowhere land,
Making all his nowhere plans
For nobody.

Doesn’t kave a point of view,
Knows not where he’s going to,
Isn’t he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere man, please listen,
You don’t know what you’re missing,
Nowhere man, the world is at your command.

He’s as blind as he can be,
Just sees what he wants to see,
Nowhere man can you see me at all?
Doesn’t kave a point of view,
Knows not where he’s going to,
Isn’t he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere man, don’t worry,
Take your time, don’t hurry,
Leave it all till somebody else
Lend you a hand.

He’s a real nowhere man,
Sitting in his nowhere land,
Making all his nowhere plans
For nobody.

I don't think Bush has any obligation to denounce it unless he is shown to be somehow connected to it....which he hasn't been. I haven't heard Bush or one of his advisors or compatriots bring up issues with Kerry's war record, though I moight have missed it.

On the looney Moore movie it's the same thing. It is not endorsed by Kerry, so why should he denounce it?

If he tried Bush would probably do one his word fumbles and say something like:

"I do denounce Mr. Kerry's Swiftboat...he got shot in the ass and got some medals on that battleship, right?" <jk :)

Trailerpark....

Funny kid , bet you make everyone laugh in school by making faces too eh?

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that since I'm proud to be a countryboy that I live like the stereotype eh?;P

The reason I draw a similarity twixt what Kerry feels the Swifties are doing and what Moore did to Bush is very simple.

Follow the bouncing ball jr, and take the spoon out of your mouth that the High School teacher has fed all yer knowledge with this is important. Something you missed in your half assed attempt to seem smert.

It's called character assassination ( spelling just waking up), it's a time honored ( if sneaky as hell) tradition used by BOTH parties to sling mud without getting the primaries dirty.

Now,I've never considered myself a political expert by any means. But I've been trying to wade through this muck since 2 years prior to Reagens election. Would put me at a grand old 13, just shy of how old and wise you are I know. And to be honest I made some of the same "Oh my god I'm young and know everything ( even if it's only what I just learned last week from school" and those old folks, omg they're beneath me".

Now, did the point sink in lil one? Think about it during your second recess today, after the daily roughing up by the lil bullies.

Fandros

As a side note Kerry is trying to force the publishers to cease printing and selling Unfit for Command.

I don't think Bush has any obligation to denounce it unless he is shown to be somehow connected to it....which he hasn't been. I haven't heard Bush or one of his advisors or compatriots bring up issues with Kerry's war record, though I moight have missed it. Some information for you. First, from the Austin American-Statesman:
The [Swift Boat] group was organized last spring with the assistance of Merrie Spaeth, a Republican public relations executive from Houston, who also was a public relations consultant to independent counsel Kenneth Starr during his investigation of former Democratic President Bill Clinton. Her late husband, Tex Lezar, ran for lieutenant governor of Texas on George W. Bush's GOP ticket in 1994. So Bush's Lt. Governor's wife helped set up SBVT; therein lies a connection. Remember, too, that the group receives considerable funding from a major Texan GOP donor. I doubt you'll find any such connection between Kerry and Moore.

There's some disingenuousness on Bush's part in all this, too. While he has oft stated that he thinks Kerry served honorably in Vietnam, he refuses to condemn an ad (and group) that accuses Kerry of not serving honorably. Bush's disclaimer is faint-praise political rhetoric and nothing more.

Furthermore, Bush's campaign refuses to address the question. Consider the following exchange between reporters and presidential spokesman Scott McClellan:
Q Well, the charge, though, has been made not just in advertisements, but it has now been made directly to the President. MR. McCLELLAN: And there have been a lot of false, negative charges made against the President by these shadowy groups. So if he would join us, we could get rid of all of this unregulated soft money activity.

Q Let me ask it this way: The President has said and believes that John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam, right?

MR. McCLELLAN: Yes, he's made that very clear. We've made it very clear that we will not make his -- will never raise questions about his service. We haven't, and we won't.

Q This advertisement raises questions about his service, and in fact concludes that he served dishonorably. So the President thinks this ad is false, right?

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, the issue here is these unregulated soft money groups that exist. The campaign finance reforms were passed in order to get rid of this kind of activity. Yet there is a loophole in the law, and the FEC has refused to address it. We think that all of this activity should be stopped.

Q Could I follow on that? Because what Terry seems to be getting at, what's clear from this event that Bush had last week --

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, let's not be selective here. Let's look at the overall activity that's going on by all of these shadowy groups. I think we're being a little selective right now. And Senator Kerry is being -- is trying to have it all ways, yet again. He says one thing, while his campaign goes out there and does another thing. Dodgy, to say the least.

Mr. Kerry could clear this all up by simply releasing all of his military records. If the SVT are lying then those records will support Mr. Kerry's version of events.

Instead he's playing the political version of "I know you are but what am I?" with the SVT by attacking their character in the same way he claims they are attacking him.

He's attempting to stifle the right to freedom of speech of the SVT by having their book taken out of print and off the shelf instead of pursuing legal recourse (if they are in fact lying).

He's had to restate what he remembers of his time in Vietnam and now appears to be recounting an experience substantially different from both his public statements in the past and what was printed in his book.

If the story is as simply as Mr. Kerry says it is wouldn't it make sense and be simpler to just release the records and disprove the SVT? It would certainly allow him and his campaign to divert their energy to more important things....like coming up with a platform* a little more solid than "Hope is on the way!"

*edit: it helps to type the whole sentence

I doubt you'll find any such connection between Kerry and Moore.Maybe, maybe not. But you're ignoring the fact that Moore is not the only anti-Bush guy running attackings. Moveon.org and its two other 527s split offs have spent more than $76.5 million on ads to attack Bush (Hitler, AWOL, Lied about WMD...)

The top forty-nine 527s by political agenda? Democrat $176 million, compared to the Republican $10.8 million.

The money is always going to be there, can't get rid of it. All you can do is play by the rules - and what you say you're going to do, stick to it.

Which Kerry can't even do...

There's some disingenuousness on Bush's part in all this, too. While he has oft stated that he thinks Kerry served honorably in Vietnam, he refuses to condemn an ad (and group) that accuses Kerry of not serving honorably. Bush's disclaimer is faint-praise political rhetoric and nothing more.Bush is remained consistent in this. He's not going to make a statement against Kerry's service, nor is he going to go beyond "I praise his service in Vietnam." Bush has continued to be a critic of all these 527 ads.

But on the other hand you have Kerry who has stated before he was going to refrain from commenting on Bush's military record... now he's out trashing that too. Can Kerry be consistent in at least one thing, other than being inconsistent?

Seriously, he has no spine. And L2, you need to get a grip dude. Name ONE thing Kerry has remained consistent on that is an issue for this election? Where is he going to stand in 3 years? 3 months? hell, 3 days? Where he lands, nobody knows.

Dodgy, to say the least.
Yup, Kerry is.

Maybe someone just wasn't on hand to tell him how to react?

"So Mr.President, what do you think has been your most difficult time in office?"
"Well, uhhh..."
5mins later.
"uhhh..."
15mins later.
"Well ya see.. uhh..
24 hours later.
"That's, that's tough. I mean, uhhh.."
Year 2210.
"Bugger, you put me on the spot. Uhh.."

BUSH second term - just say no!

I agree with Akipt. I agree with him calling Kerry a pussy too when it concerns him crying over those Swiftboat ad's. He may be billy bad-ass on other things (which I have yet to see) but concering the ad's he is puss.

If Bush wanted to cry over all the equally harsh, and massively funded ad's targeting him I would lose repect for him. But he hasn't cryed like a Mr Bronze Star, Kerry. Makes me even more skeptical about his bravery and ability while serving.

While your story concerning your lineage was an interesting read, it really doesn't apply to this specific case of Kerry whining about one group taking issue with what happened in Vietnam.

EDIT: WTF does old Beatle Songs have to do with your post LOL

EDIT: WTF does old Beatle Songs have to do with your post LOL
it describes bush perfectly:
Nowhere man, don’t worry,
Take your time, don’t hurry,
Leave it all till somebody else
Lends you a hand.

it describes bush perfectly:
Nowhere man, don’t worry,
Take your time, don’t hurry,
Leave it all till somebody else
Lends you a hand.
Like Kerry will if he gets in office? He wont make a move until the UN give him the go-ahead. I would rather be procative that let the world dictate how we defend our US interests (I dont mean to derail the thread just responded to the song)

A good song for kerry would be

(while at the egg factory)
I am the eggman
I am the eggman

(then later that day at the walrus club)
I am the walrus!

(then later when asked about his swift boat stuff)
goo goo ga joob!

So Bush's Lt. Governor's wife helped set up SBVT; therein lies a connection. List of Texas Lt. Governor's:

http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/ltgov.html

Bush was Governor from 1995-2000. When are you saying Tex Levar served as Lt. Governor?

The article actually states that he ran for Lt. Gov on Bush's ticket, not that he became Lt. Gov.

Okay I think I unraveled the mystery. Tex ran for Lt Governor in 1994 and lost. He was a republican (and so is Bush) so the assumption was made that they were a "team". Now you obviously don;t run for Gov/Lt gov as a team in Texas (or anywhere else that I can find) because Tex LOST and Bush was elected.

Now to make this connection even more irrelevant in my mind.... the man DIED Jan '04. So his wife (who hasn't run for any office) is picking up the baton and carrying it for her late dead husband. Now if I pieced this together correctly that is a pretty lame connection.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/state/7645432.htm?1c

That is a great little tangent you wandered off into about your self enlightenment Lleauaric, but not only does it not disprove the idea that Kerry is being a total pussy about this..it doesn't even address it.

Buckle down, thread is this way.

Anyway, yeah Kerry is starting to get desperate and is cracking..this whinefest he is on now is just the beginning imo..it'll go downhill from here.

but not only does it not disprove the idea that Kerry is being a total pussy about this..it doesn't even address it.

So a persons actual life experiences have no bearing on the judgements they make? Bullshit.
How can you make call a man a "pussy" when you yourself have no fucking concept of the criteria to make the judgement? This name calling from little half men who somehow placed the standard of their manhood in their political affiliation is pathetic.

You lie, you and accept lies all in the name of your politics. You rationalize the disgusting hatchet job and ignore the money trail for your own ideological expedience. It sickens me that honor can mean so little to some people. I know how people felt in Germany in the 1930s talking to some of you people on these boards. Any ends justify the means. Everything is okay as long as its for the greater good. Fuck truth, fuck integrity. Just get re-elected baby. Hide, distort, malign... The Republican Party can do anything they want, and youll make excuses for them.
"but.. but... Clinton". Fuck Clinton, he was a liar too

And this is part that distrubs me most. Because you people KNOW there are lies, but you are willing to overlook them, to excuse them, in the name of the objective. To win!! It makes me sick.

That's a tall, tall horse your prancing around on today.

yep.
the stench of this toliet bowl got to me.

But I do not lack the courage of my convictions.

But I do not lack the courage of my convictions.So what are you doing about it? Forming another political party who will play nice?

You lie, you and accept lies all in the name of your politics.We lie? Where? When?

Which candidate has had to rewrite his biography to "correct" actual events? Which candidate is saying 64 other people are liars?

You rationalize the disgusting hatchet job and ignore the money trail for your own ideological expedience.
Democrats are spending 87% of 527 attack ads in this election. Yeah, follow the money.

I'm all about the truth. I'd -love- to see Kerry get this election back onto the issues. Why doesn't Kerry have a little Russet love fest this Sunday and come clean by filing that military release form?

Wonder why indeed.

So what are you doing about it?

The only thing to do is to not enable liars. To not reward or excuse them.
People make mistakes, thats fine, but there are examples of out right lying going on here. People being intentionally dishonest, if I catch Kerry in a LIE, I would have no problem crucifying him for it. The problem is when people are ignoring the lies from their own side.

The problem is that you can bend the truth pretty far out of shape and still not be "outright lying".

I think people know. If you are intentionally being deceitful, it is lying. Dont start on the Clinton-isms

Sadly Election year politics make liars out of all those concerned.

L2 you know this as well as I do. The laughable term Campaign promises is laughable exactly because of this.


As for the coward sending me this lil missive on my rep points due to my hitting a nerve....

We are all people, all equal. And no matter how much you try to delude yourself that you are somehow better than everyone else you really aren't. The young people are the future, you are just insecure because your time has past.

I'm not targeting all young folks partner, my lil rant was directed at one person in general who continually assumes my age equates to meaning I'm nothing anymore.

I'm still very much young you lil fucknut, you lil coward and by gods unless you're a man put that comment in your piehole. ;)

Fandros

I think people know. If you are intentionally being deceitful, it is lying. Dont start on the Clinton-ismsI agree with the " If you are intentionally being deceitful, it is lying" part.

I don't think people know at all. I think some people will take whatever is spoon fed to them at face value. I think others will toe their party line no matter what is said. I think an even greater number just don't care.

I'll get off MY high horse now.

This election has me more frustrated than the others, because (as I've said before) I don't like anybody in the election. So I'm going to vote for a person I support; I'm going to have to vote against the person I dislike more.

If only Bush dumped Cheney and studied up on foreign policy- Nixon, Teddy Roosevelt or Reagan might be good places to start (considering he'd never take a Democrat's line on anything).

If only Kerry had... well, anything. The only reason I can see to vote for him is if you don't want to vote for Bush and think Nader is a loon.

If only Nader wasn't a complete loon.

LL you rationalize more than anyone on this board. Kerry was proven to be not in Cambodia as he says over and over. Yet you say well I'm sure he was in Cambodia sometime. Don't try to act like you're taking a high road.


if I catch Kerry in a LIE, I would have no problem crucifying him for it.

How about his bronze star story. Medical records show that he had a bruise on his arm, while his application for the bronze star written by him states that he was bleeding from the arm after being "hit" in the firefight which almost all of those present deny having occurred. No holes in any of the boats, no one in the task force injured by gunfire. Kerry's recent account was that he returned alone to save Rassman. His own people once again had to issue a correction on his website admitting that Kerry had left the scene and had returned to assist in rescue operations. If he wants to paint himself as a hero and distort the facts... it's his fault if he gets called on them.

I'm not sure what kind of short circuit you had to launch off about tough guys but it seems you suffer from the same delusional stereotyping as Talid. The fact is, Kerry is sending his lawyers after everyone he can to try and muffle the voices of his fellow veterans, including asking booksellers not to carry O'Neil's book, threatening those in the ad and who carry the ad with lawsuits, and attacking the credibility of the swift vets rather than addressing the accusations. So if someone wants to call him a pussy on a message board... get a grip and roll with it. Libs have been saying much worse about Bush for a long time here and where was your high horse then?

So a persons actual life experiences have no bearing on the judgements they make? How can you make call a man a "pussy" when you yourself have no fucking concept of the criteria to make the judgement?

No concept of the criteria?

Are you a moron?

Have you suffered massive head trauma?

What, in your mind I can't call anyone a pussy(even if, as in this case, it's blatantly obvious he is being a whiny little bitch) unless I go into a page long tangent about how my grandaddy was a drunk and abusive and my daddy was a good man and what tough really is?

Get the fuck over yourself.


there are examples of out right lying going on here
Who?

Where?

Oh, wait..YOU are going to just puss out now aren't you, and run away from this after tossing that out?

I'd jump on you about your bullshit "I'd crucify Kerry" line, but I think WW covered it pretty well.

Ahhh I apologize for my earlier generalization of the young. I honestly was in the wrong. I remember when I joined the Young Republicans at a tender age and helped Dan Qualye get elected in Indiana how full of spunk I was (Gods was I mistaken with him, I mistook his simple approach for honesty and earnest feelings, lil was I to know at that time he was going to be a potato"e" headed git!) I'm sure ya'll will recognize that early opinions are often clouded by spoonfeeding eh?

Please by all means folks, young and old alike , get involved and feel free to feel the fire of knowing you help make a difference aight?

Just respect the fact that some of us have been sifting through the muck so long that we're likely to mistake zeal for self righteousness. ;)

My original point stands, Bush should no more recant the actions of others than Kerry should recant the same.

Shows a flaw in Kerry to whimper so much when he won't put up the proof to prove different aye?

Bush will win, the big guns have yet to come out and Kerry is afraid to debate more than Vietnam...

Fandros

Are you a moron?

Have you suffered massive head trauma?

haha. That's all you are.

Once upon a time Lleauaric you actually had thoughtful, intelligent posts. I don't know what happened, if you are trying to kid yourself into believing you're just playing devil's advocate or what..but you've gone to absolute shit.

You need to take a step back and really think about what an ass you sound like with statements like you've made in this thread.

but you've gone to absolute shit.

LOL

I think YOU need to step back and get a grip on the fact that you get off on insulting and abuse.

How can you make call a man a "pussy" when you yourself have no fucking concept of the criteria to make the judgement?

You can tell yourself whatever you want to make you feel better, but the "insults and abuse" have their start on your end much more often than mine...and more importantly I don't make statements like the one above.

he never had to EARN anything he had.
owner of oil company and baseball teams on OTHER peoples money.
He becomes what others want him to be. There is nothing there. No real character, no real commitment.

I am actually coming into this discussion kind of late but I read Lleauric's post and what crossed my mind was......................
HAHAHHAHAhahahahahahahahahahahaha.
John Kerry is the richest man to ever run for president on whose money?!! And does "I voted against it before I voted for it" ring a bell? does that show commitment and character? Kerry is running on his Vietnam War record because his 20 year voting record is horrendous. If you are going to cast dispersions one way make sure they do not fit the other way. I heard Kerry blaming Bush for loss of manufacturing jobs due to outsourcing. How many factories does is his wife own that are overseas? Kerry is the worst kind of candidate in any election. Trying to appear as a centrist democrat instead of showing his true colors as way out left.If democrats wanted to get rid of Bush they should have came up with a better candidate than John Kerry.

You forgot. Marrying for money takes an awful lot of work. Those prima donnas require a lot of pampering. And after all that she still doesn't think you are qualified to be President!

And this is part that distrubs me most. Because you people KNOW there are lies, but you are willing to overlook them, to excuse them, in the name of the objective. To win!! It makes me sick.
Been pointing out the lies... and you've been trying to justify them. Actually mostly you just ignore them and start posting Bush bashing irrelevant photos you find on libweb. This high road bullshit you're off on now makes me ill. If you can't win at your own game... at least don't whine about it.

Here's Kerry speaking in one of those ads, which ran in South Carolina earlier this year:

"There's this sense after Vietnam that every day is extra. That you have to do what's right. You know it's right to roll back the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy to guarantee all Americans health care and invest in our kids. That's why I'm running for president."


Lol.. classic.

Here's from an anti-Bush war veteran who says he honors Kerry's service but has a question.



John Kennedy, a war hero, didn't morosely recall at each campaign stop the painful details of his experiences in the South Pacific during World War II.

Former U.S. Sen. George McGovern, whose loss to Richard Nixon in 1972 seems to be the benchmark for failed presidential campaigns, is a decorated war hero, too.

McGovern flew 35 bomber missions over Europe during World War II. But he didn't jut his jaw each morning and boorishly remind America how heroic he was when he was 22.

Granted, saying that you love your country enough to die for its ideals wouldn't have served McGovern well among his antiwar constituency.

Still, even today, he rarely speaks about his time flying B-25s into night skies crammed with exploding German flak.

Fact is, your typical American war vet is notoriously clam-like when it comes to what he saw and did on the battlefield.

Sure, we set aside this weekend each year to remember the dead and honor survivors of great battles with parades and speeches and department store sales.

But most veterans cop the same attitude toward their service that my late grandmother did toward her birthday: a slight annoyance that anyone would make a fuss.

Kerry, though, can't be fussy enough.

Veterans who fought and bled and remain haunted by their experiences might be surprised to learn Kerry took an 8mm home movie camera to Vietnam to capture himself in battle, an act of vanity that smacks of calculation.

Clips from those home movies are spliced into Kerry's TV ads to burnish his war-hero image.


I wonder if he got a letter from Kerry's lawyers after that.

I wouldn't bet against it, his lawyers are awfully prolific with those letters

I served in Vietnam. And so I know how to improve the economy.

Kerry must denounce!

The following 527s have attacked President Bush, and are run by the DNC and Kerry!

Media Fund has spent over 27 million this year

Media Fund is run by Harold Ickes, who was not only Clinton's Deputy Chief of Staff, but chaired his campaign in New York Ickes was also investigated in relation to campaign funding multiple times(as in by Congress and special investigation by the AG).

America Coming Together for Victory has spent over 20.8 million this year

ACT CEO is Steve Rosenthal, who was not only a Clinton appointee to the Labor Dept, but Deputy Political Director for the Democratic National Committee

Another ACT Founder, Minyon Moore, is a former Chief Operations Officer to the DNC and before that Assistant to President Clinton and Director of White House Political Affairs

Another ACT Founder, Gina Glantz, was Bill Bradley's National Campaign Manager

The AFLCIO has spent over 16 million this year

The Executive VP of the AFL CIO, Linda Chavez-Thompson, is the current Vice Chair of the DNC

Moveon.org has spent over 12.5 million this year

The Executive Directover of Moveon, Peter Schurman, worked extensively for Democrat Gary Ackerman, leading Congressman from New York

EMILY'S List has spent over 2 million this year.

The top donor for EMILY'S List is the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, coming in at $1,610,000

Democrat Governor Bill Richardson even has a 527!

____

The AFLCIO donated over 2 million directly to the Democratic party in 2002(to be fair they also donated some to the GOP..around $8,000).

EMILY'S List donated over 2.2 million directly to the Democratic party in 2002.

Totals for this election year are not available.
____

Let's compare that to the WBVFT numbers and look at the connections between wife's brother's sister's cousin's daughter's compared to actually being high profile members of the Democratic Party.

What's that you said Lleauaric?


You rationalize the disgusting hatchet job and ignore the money trail for your own ideological expedience.
Any of this information is available at The Center for Public Integrity's website.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129729,00.html

I don't think he had to, but Bush once again shows he's better character than Kerry.

Now ,Kerry should step up and stop the moveon.org and Mr Moorer's of the world...

Fandros

I don't think he had to, but Bush once again shows he's better character than Kerry.
heh.. so wait.. If I set your house on fire, then I put it out, Im a good dude?

Note that Bush didn't denounce the ad, all he's said is that all such ads should be pulled (which is a separate issue). Here's the exchange:

QUESTION: But why won't you denounce the charges that your supporters are making against Kerry? BUSH: I'm denouncing all the stuff being on TV, all the 527s. That's what I've said.

I said this kind of unregulated soft money is wrong for the process. And I asked Senator Kerry to join me in getting rid of all that kind of soft money, not only on TV, but to use for other purposes as well.

I, frankly, thought we'd gotten rid of that when I signed the McCain-Feingold bill. I thought we were going to once and for all get rid of a system where people could just pour tons of money in and not be held to account for the advertising.

And so, I'm disappointed with all those kinds of ads.

QUESTION: This doesn't have anything to do with other 527 ads. You've been accused of mounting a smear campaign.

Do you think Senator Kerry lied about his war record?

BUSH: I think Senator Kerry served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record.

But the question is who best to lead the country in the war on terror? Who can handle the responsibilities of the commander in chief? Who's got a clear vision of the risks that the country faces?

QUESTION: Some Republicans such as Bob Dole and some Republican donors such as Bob Perry have contributed and endorsed the message of those 527 Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ads.

QUESTION: When you say that you want to stop all...

BUSH: All of them.

QUESTION: So, I mean...

BUSH: That means that ad, every other ad.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

BUSH: Absolutely. I don't think we ought to have 527s.

I can't be more plain about it. And I wish -- I hope my opponent joins me in saying -- condemning these activities of the 527s. It's -- I think they're bad for the system. That's why I signed the bill, McCain-Feingold.

I've been disappointed that for the first, you know, six months of this year, 527s were just pouring tons of money -- billionaires writing checks. And, you know, I spoke out against them early. I tried to get others to speak out against them as well. And I just don't -- I think they're bad for the system. As one commentator put it, if you're asked to denounce Stalin's purges and you say, "Well, I denounce any politician that's for the death penalty," you haven't really denounced Stalin.

Bush is showing a distinct lack of moral character here. And his current crowing against 527s seems to contradict his earlier viewpoint (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020327.html) on this kind of advertising:
However, the bill does have flaws. Certain provisions present serious constitutional concerns. In particular, H.R. 2356 goes farther than I originally proposed by preventing all individuals, not just unions and corporations, from making donations to political parties in connection with Federal elections. I believe individual freedom to participate in elections should be expanded, not diminished; and when individual freedoms are restricted, questions arise under the First Amendment.

I also have reservations about the constitutionality of the broad ban on issue advertising, which restrains the speech of a wide variety of groups on issues of public import in the months closest to an election. I expect that the courts will resolve these legitimate legal questions as appropriate under the law.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/17/war.records.ap/index.html

Wait...what?!
Kerry condemns anti-Bush ad
But surrogates criticize president's Vietnam-era service
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 Posted: 9:52 PM EDT (0152 GMT)
So you mean...Kerry condemed a specific anti-Bush ad, a week before Bush said 'all 527's should be banned' ? Which one is more effective? ''I don't like any of them.'' or "I don't like vanilla icecream"

/chuckle

While likely your right L2, and to follow your analogy, both side set fire to each others houses using 3rd party thugs.

I would put forth that Mr Moorer's flick running rampant in Islamic countries now is more damaging to the foundation of the house, and in the end endangering our folks even more.

So, yes Bush asking a for soft money ads to be stopped is of greater character than Kerry denouncing one small ad.

Fandros

I don't like any of them is more effective in my opinion since it denounces the specific ad at question as well as all other 527 ads. Hopefully Kerry will step up to the plate and denounce the ads as well. I won't be holding my breath though.

Bush did better than you complained him to do. He denounced all 3rd party ads. But since he did that you cant even give him tiny bit of credit for doing something Kerry hasn't. Your blinded by your fanaticism L2.

He denounced all 3rd party ads
>cough<
Bullshit.
he did not do "better than I complained" (sic) Basically what he did was the equivilant of if someone asked you to denounce Stalin, you denounce the death penatly. It is crap. Mention "swiftboat vets for bush" by name. Mention Move-On.org. Do not hide behind broad generalizations that dont really answer the question and seem to say "Its okay because the other guy is doing it" Which is bullshit again.

Your blinded by your fanitism L2.
Fanaticism for what? For the truth? Ya some of that would be nice. Fuck, half you guys could walk in GWB fucking your poodle and you would still vote him, so dont give me that shit that Im a fanatic. It is uninformed, ignorant, hypocritical and ironic.

So you think Kerry should denounce Moore's film? Since your for the truth. Or when its released on DVD next month, Kerry should just look other way whole time while complaining that 3rd party vets group who dont like him are an evil plot from the devil himself (this would be Bush)?


Seen a truck load more attack adds from DNC against Bush myself than the few ads from swift boat guys against Kerry. I have learned that Bush is just past Hitler on the evil scale, while Kerry is the greatest hero on the face of this planet to ever server 4 months in Nam. But of corse Colorado prob aint as important to dump ad revenue into so I could be missing some entertaining ads right now.

Your blinded by your fanaticism L2.

It's less fanaticism, and more being fashionable by being anti-Bush. Hell, he's a teacher. It's the "in" thing to do. Most of my teacher/administrator buddies here are anti-Bush for the sole reason of not being ostracized by their co-workers and peers.

to ever server 4 months in Nam. Actually, he served 2 tours, 4 months of which was on the more dangerous assignment he volunteered for.

So you think Kerry should denounce Moore's film? Since your for the truth. Or when its released on DVD next month, Kerry should just look other way whole time while complaining that 3rd party vets group who dont like him are an evil plot from the devil himself Apples and oranges.
I have on this board denounced the Moore film. But it is a different catagory.
Created by the Bush team (Rove), financed by them, orchestrated by them and set loose.


have learned that Bush is just past Hitler on the evil scale Sort of....
http://jon.hedley.net/Jon/.rsrc/PoliticalCompass/compass.gif

http://metaphorge.cyber1a.net/livejournal/politicstest.jpg

It's the "in" thing to do. Yeah! 'Cause all the cool kids are doing it. Silly.

Didnt ask if L2 denounced Moore's film. Asked if wizard thinks Kerry should?

Apples and oranges.

No, should he denounce "The West Wing"?
The book, awesome.. great. First Amendment. Read it, buy it. The Website, fine, go there if you want, dont go.. whatever.

The TV ads cross the line. The TV ads have no place on TV. Moore doesnt pop during your favorite show and spew his lies.
The ads are lies in their very nature. They act in collusion with the Bush campaign. Guys lying about gunfire, doctors who didnt treat Kerry talking about his wounds..

If they want to say that Kerry isnt fit to be President because of his actions after the war, thats cool... but this trying to disparage a Hero. And he was a hero in Vietnam. He saved mens lives, his crew goes to bat for him, he was given a silver star for gods sakes.
The TV ads are deceptive and dishonest and manipulative

Bush is showing a distinct lack of moral character here. And his current crowing against 527s seems to contradict his earlier viewpoint (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020327.html) on this kind of advertising:


So 527's have spent over 140 million on behalf of Kerry, and 527s have spent 9 millino on behalf of Bush, yet Bush is the one showing a lack of moral character? Lol... you're a puppet.


Do not hide behind broad generalizations that dont really answer the question and seem to say "Its okay because the other guy is doing it" Which is bullshit again.


The only reason Kerry every brought the issue up... and the only reason the media every picked the issue up... is because the ads against Kerry have struck paydirt finally. Remember the media firestorm when Bush applied to the FEC objecting to Kerry's ads? Oh yeah there wasn't one. Now suddenly even though 527 groups have spent 1/16 on behalf of the Bush campaign of what they have spent on Kerry, we're supposed to believe that Bush is the bad guy here. Nice try. Where was all the indignation you show now when Bush's National Guard duty was under fire for hundreds of hours on the national news day after day? When Kerry puts his Vietnam service in the forefront... you bet it should be critiqued. So far he's not standing up to it very well.


Fanaticism for what? For the truth? Ya some of that would be nice. Fuck, half you guys could walk in GWB fucking your poodle and you would still vote him, so dont give me that shit that Im a fanatic. It is uninformed, ignorant, hypocritical and ironic.

Lol. You're blinded by faith LL. You ignore all the evidence against you and rant on. Way to keep the faith.

http://www.vnsfvetakerry.com/photogallery/Warrecord.jpg

Apples and oranges.
I have on this board denounced the Moore film. But it is a different catagory.

You mean like the category of Moore sitting right next to Jimmy Carter at the democratic convention? Are they showing the Swift Vets commercial in Cuba and the Middle East as propaganda against the US? You mean like the category of complete distortions and lies versus opinions expressed by people who were actually there?


Sort of....
http://jon.hedley.net/Jon/.rsrc/PoliticalCompass/compass.gif

Huh? The Hitler-Bush thing is funny cuz you just got done whining that you're not fanatic yet you agree with moveon.org, which is an ACTUAL shadow group that ACTUALLY received a great deal of money from foreign nationals and ACTUALLY makes propaganda attack adds with no factual basis, simply smear tactics. You know John O'Neil didn't wasn't even active against Kerry since the early 70's until Kerry smeared him in his book last year.


Moore doesnt pop during your favorite show and spew his lies.

There were tons of adds for the film, and hours and hours of political commentary on talk shows and on the news.


The ads are lies in their very nature. They act in collusion with the Bush campaign. Guys lying about gunfire, doctors who didnt treat Kerry talking about his wounds..


That's funny... a lot of those things you call lies have already forced Kerry to change his story on several counts. I know you'll go on ignoring it because it's convenient for you, but he's the one that's had to backtrack.


but this trying to disparage a Hero. And he was a hero in Vietnam. He saved mens lives, his crew goes to bat for him, he was given a silver star for gods sakes.
The TV ads are deceptive and dishonest and manipulative

In other words... they're impinging on your reality so they must be wrong. You know what Rassman's job was in Vietnam? He was in charge of helping people put in paperwork for medal citations. He wasn't even supposed to be out in field operations technically. It's funny that Kerry buddied up with the guy in charge of helping file paperwork for medals. My stepdad tells me that it wasn't entirely uncommon for officers to put in their own requests for medals, and that when you're on a boat, and a commander gets a medal, usually a few of his shipmates get medals as well. So they're all linked together and therefore... they back him. Circumstantial evidence but oh well. All the controversy over whether Kerry was the one who filed the report could be easily cleared up if he would just release the records.

Thormir, I expect this from Lleauaric...


Note that Bush didn't denounce the ad

You then go on to quote the interview, the first sentence out of Bush is:


I'm denouncing all the stuff being on TV, all the 527s.
I can't imagine how you could post that with a clear conscience.

That stuff btw about Kerry accusing other soliders of doing whatever, is yet another falsehood.
The entire transcript reveals that he was relating what other vets from Vietnam told him THEY did at the Winter Soliders conference.

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese....

Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doen'st have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say they we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."

We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? But we are trying to do that, and we are doing it with thousands of rationalizations, and if you read carefully the President's last speech to the people of this country, you can see that he says and says clearly:

But the issue, gentlemen, the issue is communism, and the question is whether or not we will leave that country to the Communists or whether or not we will try to give it hope to be a free people.

But the point is they are not a free people now under us. They are not a free people

I know chopping up quotes and placing them completely out of context is a favorite lie for the Bush campaign, but its nice to have the actual ones availible.

I'm denouncing all the stuff being on TV, all the 527s.
Thats a justification. He knows he is responsible for the Swiftboat ads, but by claiming all of them are equal in wrongness, he tries to wash his hands clean. A few republicans have come out against the ads, powerful senators, the political danger of the ads is there. That statement says he isnt going to do a thing until all the 527s are removed. Until then, he justifies letting them continue.
Its called bullshit.
I can't imagine how you could post that with a clear conscience.
Never stopped you.

Where is Kerry in saying the attackes against President Bush should stop LL, he is no where. This didnt become an issue until Kerry was being attacked by this group, not the multiple groups that attack President Bush. But those are ok because they are attacking you opponent right, because you sure as hell have said a thing against those ads.


Rev

Because there is a difference.
The equivilant of the Swiftboats would be to find a group of people to get on some TV ad and say
"Hi, I drank with George Bush all night into a drunken stupor about 15 times in 1975"
"George Bush says he is against drugs, but I snorted coke with him at the Dallas Hotel bar when he should have been at his National Guard training"

Would that be fair?
Show me the equivilant of the Swiftboat attacks. Show me the level of indecency that attacking a man who volunteered for the war, volunteered for more dangerous assignments, and served his country with honor by Move-On.

Kerry denounced attacks on Bush's national guard record. Specifically. Broad generalizations by Bush are a way of avoiding the issue.
Denounce the attacks, or embrace them, stop trying to tap dance.

THere isnt a difference an attack is an attack. Bush has said, I am against all of the 527 ads, where is Kerry. No where because the ads are playing in battleground states. They are helping is campaign and he wont speak against them. Kerry wants Bush to say the swifties shouldnt be saying anything, guess what it is thier right, wether or not Bush or Kerry agrees. If Kerry wants to show what he is made of he needs to denounce all the ads just like Bush has and perhaps you will see an end to this type of political assasination. But for Kerry to say, hey I dont like this ad you should tell them to stop, when you and everyone else has but suposition to support that Bush is tell them to run it is foolish. You are always saying Bush needs to denouce this, he has and Kerry is still sitting on the side lines, and until he does it him crying in his milk.

My wife and I are both trying to deciede who to vote for, shes a Dem leading towards Bush and I am completly undecieded as niether candidate has shown me much of a reason to vote for them, at this rate it will come down to the Devil you know is better than the devil you dont know.

Actually.. There is a difference.
Its a legal one. Collusion between a 527 and a campaign is illegal.

The connections crist0 posted are irrelevant. They only show that the people involved in the 527s are Democrats. Despite many neo cons fondest wishes.. being a democrat isnt illegal.

A 527 being set up and funded with the cooperation of the campaign is illegal.

Its a legal one. Collusion between a 527 and a campaign is illegal.
Yup. Like this (http://www.democrats.org/wvc/weekinreview/200305120002.html)?

The Democratic Party is partnering with MoveOn.org, People for the American Way, Campaign for America's Future, and dozens of other groups representing millions of Americans to organize a massive public mobilization. On Wednesday, May 14, join us by calling and emailing your representatives in Congress to let them know that the majority of Americans oppose more irresponsible tax cuts that go overwhelmingly to the wealthiest sliver of Americans.
Or this (http://www.democrats.org/news/200311140002.html)?

The DNC is also conducting a major petition drive in partnership with MoveOn.org. More than 310,000 Americans have signed the petition to protect our courts - with more than 172,000 of those signatures coming in the past 36 hours.
http://photos1.blogger.com/img/181/1232/1024/courts2.1.jpg

No collusion here! just "DNC Chief Operating Officer Josh Wachs (left),
Senator Leahy, and Zack Exley from Moveon.org
pose with the more than 310,000 signatures."

Two weeks later, Exley jumps onboard with Kerry's campaign... CNN: Kerry hires online chief from MoveOn (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/07/kerry.exley/)

All you have connecting the Swift Vets and Bush are donors and more tin-hat theory. Stop making a joke of yourself L2.

SO now you have colusion on both side, depending on how you define it, until either party is found to have emailed the repective 527 with the play this ad in this state since we wont be letter all you have is supposition. Strong supposition but supposition none the less, it doesnt answer the question, where is Kerry on this, why hasnt he denounced the 527 ads? If he wants to be President he has to stand up, Bush did by not just comdeming these 527's but singing a bill, a bipartisan bill at that if memory serves, he thought would remove thier existance once and for all. SO tell me LL why hasnt Kerry come out against them? Because other than the swifties site they serve his purpose? Just wondering where you think he stands.

Rev

I can't imagine how you could post that with a clear conscience. I explained it in the context of my post; hate for you to have to rely on your imagination. ;) Bush has been asked specificially to denounce the ad that's been doing his dirty work, and he repeatedly dodges the question. He could easily answer, "I denounce this ad and all the rest," but he won't do so, because he knows who his friends are. Bush's denouncement of 527s is mere political rhetoric, and he's using it well. He's having his cake and eating it, too: his allies savage Kerry with their ads, Bush denounces all such ads with a nudge and a wink, knowing he benefits from them as much as Kerry does ($$ buy ads, but can't make them effective, and I'd say the SBVT ads are effective).

So it's with a very clear conscience that I present what might be views of a pro-Kerry person (which I'm not). After all, we get plenty of anti-Kerry stuff from you, Winterworg, akipt, that 666 guy who follows you all around like a lost duckling... Kerry really just has L2, and I have a soft spot for the underdog. And, of course, I loathe Bush.

I denounce this ad and all the restBush has said that repeatedly.

Bush has been asked specificially to denounce the ad that's been doing his dirty work, and he repeatedly dodges the question

I'm sorry, but when he said he denounces ALL of those organizations and the ads they produce, that ad is somehow not part of it?
Even when he makes it a point to(again) praise Kerry's military service?

The entire transcript reveals that he was relating what other vets from Vietnam told him THEY did at the Winter Soliders conference.Ok, all the vets but the Swifties...

BRANT: "You should know what you said when you came back, the impact it had on the young sailors and how it was disrespectful of our guys that were killed over there.

KERRY: "When we dedicated swift boat one in '92, I said to all the swift guys that I wasn't talking about the swifties, I was talking about all the rest of the veterans."
So, logically one has to wonder if Kerry meant ALL the Swift boat veterans, or just the ones he was talking to at the dedication?

Seriously L2, and you went so far as to say "let's avoid the Clinton-isms" in a previous thread. HAHA

HAHA
Oh, you like to laugh?

By any standard, President Bush heads into his convention in a very weak position. His current position stems from the fact that voters judge the incumbent on his performance and on the state of the nation. By this measure, the president is in grave difficulty. To be counted a success, the Republican convention must fundamentally alter public attitudes on President Bush's stewardship of the country.

There are some basic benchmarks by which an incumbent's success can be measured as the campaign heads into the fall:



The average winning incumbent has had a job approval rating of 60%. Indeed, every incumbent who has won reelection has had his job approval in the mid-50's or higher at this point. In recent polling, Bush's average approval rating has been 48%. President Bush must emerge from his convention having dramatically altered public perception of his performance in office.
In recent years, when incumbents have gone on to victory, 52% of voters, on average, said the country was on the right track. Now, just 37% think things are moving in the right direction. Thus, President Bush must convince the electorate that the nation is in much better shape than voters now believe to be the case.
Every incumbent who has gone on to be reelected has had a double-digit lead at this point.
Following their conventions, the average elected incumbent has held a 16-point lead, while winning incumbents have led by an average of 27 points. Bush will need a very substantial bounce to reach the mark set by his successful predecessors.
Incumbents have enjoyed an average bounce in the vote margin of 8 points.
On average, incumbents' share of the two-party vote has declined by 4 points between their convention and Election Day.
President Bush has the opportunity to achieve an average, or even greater, bounce from his convention. Typically, elected incumbents go into their conventions with a 9-point lead, while incumbents who have gone on to win enter their conventions with a 21-point lead. Most current polls show the race quite close. This gives the president substantial room to bounce. By contrast, Senator Kerry entered his convention in a far stronger position than the average challenger. The average challenger goes into his convention 16 points behind, while Senator Kerry entered his convention with a 1-2 point lead. This gave Senator Kerry much less room to bounce.

However, as the data above makes clear, average is not enough for President Bush. Incumbents who went on to win reelection had an average lead of 27 points after their convention. Indeed, the average elected incumbent -- winners and losers -- had a lead of 16 points after their conventions. An average bounce would still leave Bush well below the historical mark set by other incumbents, particularly those who went on to victory.

Perhaps most important, the average elected incumbent experienced a 4-point drop in his share of the two-party vote from the post-convention polling to Election Day. Thus, to beat the odds, President Bush will need to be garnering 55% of the two-party vote after his convention. Anything less than that and the president will remain in grave political danger.

Great attacks on Kerry. But they dont change votes. Just undecideds more likely to be disgusted and fed up on election and stay home.
So, how is Bush going to change opinions about him? More Swiftboat ads????
>chuckle< now THAT is funny.

Even when he makes it a point to(again) praise Kerry's military service?He can afford to praise Kerry's service because he knows his allies are attacking it thoroughly. He refuses to specifically condemn SBVT (very easy to do) because he doesn't want to interfere with the fine work they are doing on behalf of the Bush campaign. Really, Crist0, the motivations here are not that opaque. Take off the blinders.

L2, I read elsewhere that a number of indicators show that Bush will likely win the vote. They were very indirect (can't find the link at present), so how much stock can be placed in them is hard to say. I'd hold off on poll watching til after the RNC, personally.

Those are historic indicators. Now the history doesnt necessarily bind the present, and things are possible to happen that are unique for whatever reason... but.. it doesnt look good for Bush there. No incumbant has ever won from the position he is in.

oops

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A27092-2004Aug23?language=printer

OMG Goss supported reorganizing and centralizing intelligence 9 years before current suggestions to do the same thing!

Talk about being prescient.

Ohhh... I get it..
Its only bad when a DEMOCRAT does it.
gotcha

You guys are impossible. There's no point in arguing it with you, your lights are on but no one's home. Your hypocrisy is breathtaking to behold.



Kerry has already had to completely change 2 of his bogus stories due to the work of his fellow swift vets. If he would just tell the truth, they wouldn't have anything to go after him on. If he would release the rest of his records, we could see if they are his words on the citations or someone elses. He did nothing when Bush cried foul months ago about the 527 attack ads coming from his side... now suddenly Kerry's all indignant. Fuck Kerry. He and the dnc lined out the rules, now they don't want to play by them anymore. Tough shit. You say Bush wants to have his cake and eat it too? LMAO look in the mirror and wipe the frosting off.

Lol, you guys bitch and complain that Bush didn't denounce the swift boat ad and then when he does, you bitch and complain about him denouncing all 527 ad's and not just specifically the swift boat one. Also I find it funny that most of the people outraged by the swift boat ad. are the free speech liberals (those who think you can say anything you want at any time), well I guess they only believe in that when it helps their cause.

Has Kerry denounced moveon.org, moore's lies, and all the other 527 groups the anti-bush people are running?

I have no fucking idea where Kerry stands on most issues. It is almost 2 months until the election and Kerry pussy foots around every question thrown at him. Its almost as if he is afraid to answer and take a stand on controversial issues. Instead he just lets moveon.org and moore do his dirty work. My favorite is when a reporter asked Kerry if he would have went to Iraq knowing everything we know now and he answers "you bet we might have" or something to that effect.

Going back to the swift boat veterans for truth, Kerry can clear this whole fucking thing up and prove the swift boat veterans to be wrong (at this point there is no 100% proof that they are for sure wrong) if he RELEASED HIS FULL MILITARY AND MEDICAL RECORDS.

Why is Kerry so hesitant to release all his military and medical records? It will clear up the truth once and for all, and put this stupid issue of who did what over 30 years ago to rest, Kerry needs to understand people care more about what he is going to do today with the country rather than what he did over 30 years ago in Vietnam.

Has Bush released his full NG records?

Shhh L2, you know daddy had 'em shredded :)

...and Kerry hasn't finished doctoring his...who cares they're politicians!!

Main Entry: pol·i·ti·cian http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?politi06.wav=politician'))
Pronunciation: "pä-l&-'ti-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : a person experienced in the art or science of government; especially : one actively engaged in conducting the business of a government
2 a : a person engaged in party politics (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=politics) as a profession b : a person primarily interested in political (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=political) office for selfish or other narrow usually short-sighted reasons
3 : Dumbass
Notice the "selfish or other narrow usually short-sighted reasons"...obviously number 1 doesn't apply in either case.

Yes I added #3.....sorry :)

Yes Lleauaric, Bush released his service records to the public some time ago.

or not

Although Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry is under fire from a GOP-backed group of retired naval officers who claim he lied about his combat record in Vietnam, a number questions about President Bush's 1968-73 stint in the Texas Air National Guard remain unanswered.

For example:

•Why did the young Lt. Bush stop flying fighter jets in the spring of 1972 and fail to appear for an annual physical exam required of all pilots?

•What about the gap in the president's Guard service in 1972-73, when commanders in Texas and Alabama say they never saw him report for duty and military records show no pay to Bush when he was supposed to be on duty in Alabama?

•What preferential treatment did Bush receive to get into the Guard and secure a coveted pilot slot despite poor qualifying scores and a record of arrests for stealing a Christmas wreath and rowdiness at a football game during his college years?

Although the White House released some records, the files released so haven't answered those questions. Since the documents were released in February, at least a half-dozen news organizations have filed new requests for Bush's military records under the Freedom of Information Act but the White House has stonewalled many of those request.

Claims presidential spokesman Dan Bartlett said: "Some are taking longer than others, but all will be addressed."

But the delay has helped make past military service and qualifications to be commander in chief a central theme in the 2004 presidential campaign.

And while the high-profile campaign about Kerry's Vietnam service dominate current news, questions about Bush's record predate the current campaign. The gap in his Guard service first surfaced before the 2000 election, when The Boston Globe reported that Texas Guard commanders were unable to account for Bush's whereabouts from May 1972 to April 1973.

Bush will not say what, if anything, he did in the Guard during that period. A statement by a former Alabama Air Guard officer who said he saw Bush report for duty there in the fall of 1972 and a dential exam on Jan. 6, 1973, are the only indications he was ever at Dannelly Air National Guard Base in Alabama.

Bush claimed in a TV interview in February that he would make "all" his military records available. The White House released more than 400 pages of Bush military records, including some duplicates, and said the documents were a complete catalog of his personnel files.

But some documents still have not been made public. The White House did not release Bush's medical records from his Guard files but allowed a group of reporters who cover the White House to review them for 20 minutes. They found nothing unusual. Kerry released some of his military records earlier this year. He has also declined to release his complete medical records but showed them to reporters as Bush did.

In February, the White House banned all Guard and military commanders outside the Pentagon from commenting on Bush's records or service. Requests for information must go to the Pentagon's Freedom of Information Act office.

The Pentagon last week responded to a 4-month-old request for additional records from Bush's files by sending another copy of documents that were released by the White House in February. The documents do not address the unexplained year in Bush's Guard service or his decision to stop flying.

The Associated Press filed a lawsuit this summer requesting copies of Bush's military records stored in a Texas archive on microfilm. It sought information that might explain why Bush did not take his flight physical and whether he showed up for duty in Alabama in the fall of 1972, AP spokesman John Stokes said

If Bush was running a "vote for me because I was a great soldier" campaign, like Kerry is trying to do, then it would matter a lot more what he did when he was in the Texas Guard. Kerry can't make his service in Vietnam a cornerstone of his election hooplah and then act surprised when it comes under the microscope. Especially after what he did/said when he came back from Vietnam.

LL answer the question, why hasnt Kerry come out at moveon.org or the other 527's attacking President Bush? There are two reasons, they are exercising their free speech and they are hurting President Bush(possibly). So you have a President who has multiple time denounced the 527's, mind you not just the ones attacking him, and a candidate who sits on the side and whines about the 1 527 running ads that attack him. Whether or not the SBVFT(is that right) are telling the truth or not is impossible to show, as are Kerry stories, since you have folks that were all there saying different things. The one thing you do have is a candidate taking a stand and saying these 527's are wrong and 1 sitting on the side lines whining, doesnt give me warm fuzzies on it. on a side note, a guy here at work was going to vote for Kerry till all this stuff started happening and now hes undecieded again.

Rev.

rowdiness at a football game during his college years?

Rowdiness!?! Football game?!!? DURING HIS COLLEGE YEARS?!?!

MY SWEET GOD!

The horror....the horror...

Kerry denounced the attacks on Bushies service record.

Bush denoucing ALL 527s is a weasly attempt to change the topic.

Rowdiness!?! Football game?!!? DURING HIS COLLEGE YEARS?!?! To the point he was arrested for it...
SO basically we are voting for one These guys
http://www.eteamz.com/arlingtonhoops/images/HallofShame-FBPic2002-10.jpg

But wait, how can that be!
Wasnt he doing other manly activities at that time? Like CHEERLEADING!
http://www.funnycelebpics.com/items/39.gif
Vote for President Pom Pom!!

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:Zquc2JqINZ4J:http://www.starnet.com.au/dwomen/PageMill_Images/cheerleader.gif

What is weasly about taking a stand and saying These are wrong and I denounce them, not the ones I like but the ones I dont like also. by your logic President Bush should be asking Kerry to denounce the Moveon.org ads or some other group he doesnt like.

Now the WP reports that the Cheif outside council to the Bush campaign has also advised the SBVFT. The Democrates on this board and outside it will now come out and say its proof that the Bush campaign is telling them what to do, because of course a lawyer couldnt have more than 1 client.
nice bit from from the article in MSNBC

/Qoute "The type of work Ginsberg has done has not been deemed improper by Kerry's campaign. The law firm of Perkins Coie represents the Kerry campaign, and Robert Bauer, an election lawyer at the firm, represents the anti-Bush 527 group America Coming Together, which has been mobilizing voters for Kerry."

So where is Kerry on denouncing the 527's? does anyone know if he voted for the McCain-Feinbold(SP) act?

Are those pictures the best you can do, because it isnt a good argument it shows pettiness at best, because I am sure you wouldnt do anything to support you school that wasnt considered manly(SP).

But wait, how can that be!
Wasnt he doing other manly activities at that time? Like CHEERLEADING!
This from the man who posted a tirade about real toughness being reflected in a person's character not the degree of physical stress they could deal or endure?

By all means, attack Mr. Bush's manliness if you have to but stick to one standard.

Kerry denounced the attacks on Bushies service record.Like all things John Kerry, he was for it, before he was against it...

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0427b.html

I tell ya what. How about you educate yourself.

http://www.fec.gov/members/smith/smith.html

http://reason.com/interviews/bradleysmith.shtml

The problem isnt the existance of 527s. The problem is the administrations support for intentionally slanderous dis-information.
He did the same thing to McCain, it was disgusting then, it is disgusting now.
Imagine if Clinton had called into question Doles wounds, suffered when a tossed grenade bounced back off a tree. What if he called them "self-inflicted"?
It would be sickening, it would be wrong... This is sickening, this is wrong.. The Bush Campaign created the Swiftboats with support, vision and funding.
because I am sure you wouldnt do anything to support you school that wasnt considered manly
Meaning I wouldnt be a cheerleader? Ya. Especially if I had a C- GPA. Instead of urging on people into combat, he should probably have been studying information.. kinda like today..

The Bush Campaign created the Swiftboats with support, vision and funding."The problem is [L2's] support for intentionally slanderous dis-information. "

HAHA Good one.

Imagine if Clinton had called into question Doles wounds, suffered when a tossed grenade bounced back off a tree. What if he called them "self-inflicted"?
Dole didn't come back from WW2 protesting America's actions there.

Dole didn't accuse his fellow brothers of atrocities.

Dole didn't write a biography that gives an entirely different set of events than what he now says happened. Two, three changes so far in Kerry's world?

Dole didn't refute any of his wounds IN HIS OWN DIARY:

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040825-125217-7993r.htm

The newly exhumed passages were first reported by Fox News Channel in a televised interview with John Hurley, national leader of Veterans for Kerry.

"Is it possible that Kerry's first Purple Heart was the result of an unintentionally self-inflicted wound?" asked reporter Major Garrett.

"Anything is possible," Mr. Hurley replied.

The Swift Boat Veterans say that means Mr. Kerry is now backing off of his first Purple Heart claim, just as he has apparently changed his claim that he spent Christmas 1968 on an operation in Cambodia.

"It's a house of cards," said Van Odell, one of the veterans. "What he wrote in 'Tour of Duty' and how he used that is nothing but a house of cards, and it's exposed."
As you're wont to say, apples and oranges.

I will ask you again, where is the concrete proof that either side is deliberatly tell the 527's what to say. you dont have it because it doesnt exist, there is supposition and
innuendo that both parties are directly tell these 527's where to run ads. The difference is Bush has said "I am against all 527's" and Kerry hasn't said anything beyond the SBVFT ads. Admit it, Kerry wont take the same position because the 527's are helping him just as much as they are President Bush.

So you best reply to it being childish is he should have been studying, cause god knows on a friday or Saturday everyone should be studying more and not going to sporting events. What do you teach again? History, English, Science, Phys Ed( or what ever they are calling it now)?

Oh yeah! I almost forgot.. let's see what Bob Dole has to say about all this:


Bob Dole had enough and gave this sobering assessment, “I think this can hurt Kerry more than all the medal controversy. I mean, one day he's saying that we were shooting civilians, cutting off their ears, cutting off their heads, [and then Kerry was] throwing away his medals or his ribbons.” Dole continued, “The next day he's standing there, I want to be president because I'm a Vietnam veteran."

Dole then reminded the CNN audience that he had given John Kerry some friendly advice earlier in the campaign, “I said months ago--John, don't go too far." But Kerry had no choice. He’s been in the US Senate for 19 years and it has been a very unspectacular run. Mr. Dole himself understood that, “You know, I would like to talk about --I think they ought to talk about the record. But Senator Kerry's record in the Senate, I served with him for 14 years, I can't remember a single piece of legislation that bore his name. And maybe he did a lot of good work, but it wasn't very obvious.”

Ouch!

And Bob Dole was just getting started, “Maybe he should apologize to all the other 2.5 million veterans who served. He wasn't the only one in Vietnam. And here's a good guy, [and a] good friend. I respect his record. But three Purple Hearts and [he] never bled that I know of. I mean, they're all superficial wounds. Three Purple Hearts and you're out.” And indeed John Kerry was able to get himself out of a scheduled year-long tour in Viet Nam in only four months. And Bob Dole and countless other veterans have never forgotten that.

Kerry was in hiding on Sunday night and all day Monday but he found time to surprise Bob Dole on Monday with a phone call saying he was disappointed and telling Dole, “I thought we were friends.” Dole replied that they were and then Dole appeared on the Sean Hannity radio program to tell the audience exactly what he told Mr. Kerry. “Bush is my guy and I’m tired of people on your side calling him everything from a coward to a traitor to a deserter.” Bob Dole then told John Kerry to call President Bush and say to the president, “Let’s stop all of this stuff about Viet Nam and concentrate on the future of this country.” Bob Dole also reminded John Kerry that these SwiftVets have “first amendment rights, just as you have first amendment rights.” Dole then bluntly suggested that Kerry should apologize “for past testimony before Congress about alleged atrocities during the Vietnam War.”

The next day Kerry allegedly called some of the Swift Vets... to apologize? no, of course not.

Dole didn't come back from WW2 protesting America's actions there.
So thats reason to attack him and make up lies? Ends justify the means again right?

Dole didn't accuse his fellow brothers of atrocities.
Neither did Kerry, if it is his speech before congress you refer to.. The entire quote reveals he spoke of what men admitted to him at the Winter Soliders conference.

The difference is Bush has said "I am against all 527's"
Wrong, what Bush has SAID was basically... "Dont hate the player, hate the game" to use a more down to earth vernacular.
(spoken)Im against all 527s (unspoken)but as long as my opponent is using them im justified

Bush is trying to change the topic of the debate. Sorry, not gonna happen. The Swiftboat ads are wrong for reasons beyond what tax code they fall under.
Question: Mr Arafat, are you opposed to Terrorism?
Answer: I am opposed to all entities that seek to oppress a group of people with force and violence.
Nice. See that little trick there? So common, so blatent. Some people seem to fall for it as easily as people in Arab countries. Why wouldnt you? We are no better, no different. If people are uninformed and unaware, they are easily manipulated.



As far as Bob Dole, >shrug< I like Bob Dole. Bob Dole is a hero and a great American. He is also a good solider. And someone who has a few debts to repay in getting the WW2 monument built. I dont doubt Mr. Doles integrity and his belief in what he says, but I know the reason the administration trotted him out.

But three Purple Hearts and [he] never bled that I know of. I mean, they're all superficial wounds. Three Purple Hearts and you're out.”
John Kerry still has a piece of shrapnel in his leg. If you can explain to me how he managed to get that piece lodged in his leg without any blood being spilt, Id be impressed, other than that, Mr. Dole is underinformed about what he speaks of in this case.

And indeed John Kerry was able to get himself out of a scheduled year-long tour in Viet Nam in only four months. And Bob Dole and countless other veterans have never forgotten that.
But they seem to forget that it was his second tour. He reinlisted after his first tour and volunteered for the more dangerous Swiftboat assignment.

Kerry was in hiding on Sunday night
Goes to integrity of the writer.

Neither did Kerry, if it is his speech before congress you refer to.. The entire quote reveals he spoke of what men admitted to him at the Winter Soliders conference.Nope nope nope. That speech was against ALL veterans EXCEPT his fellow Swifties. He corrected that much in 1992's dedication of a Swift Boat.

You making this shit up as you go along parroting what others want Kerry to say or what?

Bush is trying to change the topic of the debate. Sorry, not gonna happen.
LMAO Your boy is in melt down, or didn't you notice?

...And someone who has a few debts to repay in getting the WW2 monument built.
That's the lowest yet I've seen you go. Congratulations!

"The problem is [L2's] support for intentionally slanderous dis-information."

Basically, he used plain english, qouted from CNN

"That means that ad, every other ad. Absolutely. I don't think we ought to have 527s."

He didnt dance around it, he didnt embelish he came out and said, this ad, the SBVFT ad, and all others. there is no doubt, unless you can read his mind, which we all know you can't. He took a stand, Kerry hasn't and probably won't, the sheer number of 527 on his side and the money they have would be foolish to say you want to side line. But for god sake quit trying to add you own personal embelishments to what someone says, just admit Bush said what he said and that Kerry hasn't. Then we can move on and discuss something useful like the candidate differing positions on health care or balancing the budget.

All Kerry has to do is sign the form and if he has nothing to hide the question will go away.


Kerry intentionally, personally, and through surrogates doggedly attacked Bush's national guard record, now suddenly he wants it both ways when he's getting his ass handed to him.

He lied about Cambodia, his first purple heart is a fraud, he lied about the facts of the March 13 1969 incident to make himself look like the only boat that came back, and other facts are called into question by many of the people who were also there. Those facts are indisputable and only brought to light through the actions of the Swift Vets. If they were right about those facts, IE if Kerry wasn't telling the truth about thos facts, then they could very well be right about the things that have yet to be proven. All he has to do is release the rest of his records and it will go away if he's telling the truth.

Nope nope nope. That speech was against ALL veterans EXCEPT his fellow Swifties. He corrected that much in 1992's dedication of a Swift Boat.

You making this shit up as you go along parroting what others want Kerry to say or what?

Hmm

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

Thats the quote.. Who is he accusing? Like it, dont like it, whatever.. his words are right there.

All he has to do is release the rest of his records and it will go away if he's telling the truth.
How about these swiftboat guys offer to go and take polygraph tests by independent parties.

Wouldn't be necessary if he would sign the form. How about Kerry authorize republication of his book New Soldier and stop his lawyers threatening anyone who uses pictures or quotations from it?



How about he publicly apologize for his testimony since it has now been shown that many of those 150 he mentions were frauds, including the vp of VVAW who was not an officer as he claimed and who was never anywhere near Vietnam though he had some pretty wild stories about it.



"The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned with a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped."

How bout that part of his testimony? You think that helped or hurt men coming back from Vietnam? Oh yeah... they made him say it I forgot.

Answer this... do you think that the vast majority of men who returned from Vietnam and were scorned by the public thanked Kerry for his testimony, or hated him for what he said?

The REAL betrayal was the "Vietnamization". The Slow Motion Retreat.

Thats what Kerry was talking about. We were no longer fighting a war to win. We realized we couldnt win. Not enough Vietnamese gave a shit if they were communist or not. So if you are in Vietnam, and every day you hear how we are slowly pulling out to let the Vietnamese take over, you realize what a joke that is.
We understood that we could never achieve victory unless we invaded the North, and we just werent willing to do that. We didnt consider South Vietnam important enough to go to war with China and/or the Soviet Union.
So maybe some kid from Chicago was sitting in some rice paddy thinking to himself "Why the FUCK am I here, while some rich politicans son is back home living it because his Daddy had connections, we arent even fighting this war to win."
John Kerry imbolstered the Enemy??? HA! Nixon announcing the gradual withdrawl from Vietnam did more the embolster the enemy than anything. North Vietnam had victory parades after that.

Is it true that John Kerry is memorialized in North Vietnam museums of history? Someone at work told me that he has a display in such a museum. If that is the case, then it has to make you wonder....

Edit: NM found it http://www.tinyvital.com/Misc/KerryHonoredByCommunists2.htm

I found this while searching for the Vietnam connection with Kerry... Remeber, this is a pro-republican site (or I am assuming since the address is 'blogsforbush') but it still makes valid and relavent connections in my mind.

http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt/images/infographicfull.jpg

Eh, considering both the source and content of that image, I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

To start, it links Zack Exley to MoveOn.org (the people who compared Bush to Hitler). It says Exley "formerly did the same work for MoveOn.org," and states his position as Kerry-Edwards Internet Director, whatever that is. If you ask me, that's a pretty weak connection, and doesn't imply any direct contact between the Kerry-Edwards campaign and MoveOn.org.

After Exley you've got Jim Jordan, who was formerly (seeing a pattern here?) a Kerry campaign manager, and is now a spokesman for a 527. Once again, no direct connection, and to make it even more vague, he's not even part of Kerry's campaign anymore.

The next possible 'connection' is through Mary Beth Cahill, a Kerry-Edwards Campaign Manager. Cahill is not affiliated with any 527s, but she's connected to Harold Ickes. The chart says Cahill and Ickes are 'friends.' Ickes is on the DNC executive board, and is a "driving force behind The Media Fund." (The Media Fund is another 527) What constitutes a "driving force?" Is he a member of the group? If so, state his position. Is he giving them money? If so, state how much. Seems pretty simple to me.

Finally, next to Kerry, you've got Edwards. The chart links Edwards like this: Edwards ---> Fred Baron (financier of Edwards during the primaries) ---> Terry McAuliffe (DNC Chairman) ---> Steve Bing (Hollywood Producer). First off, helping Edwards during the Primaries in no way directly connects Fred Baron to the current Kerry-Edwards campaign. Secondly, there's no information provided as to how McAuliffe fits into this scheme, aside from being a DNC chairman. They connect him to Bing by saying Bing gave money to the DNC. Still, pretty vague. My guess is, McAuliffe serves as a face to put down on that chart, because just putting the DNC (which would have been much more valid) isn't as effectively manipulative.

It's just a smear. Trying to throw in a mob hitman into that ring, aside from being extremely laughable, just bolsters that fact even more. You can whip up effective, truthful smears, but they usually have a lot more substance, and aren't so intentionally misleading.

Roliel, ya I agree with you basically. I was just pointing out that it iffy but relavent in the way connections can be made if you want to connect someone to something :)

The chart links Edwards like this: Edwards ---> Fred Baron (financier of Edwards during the primaries) ---> Terry McAuliffe (DNC Chairman) ---> Steve Bing (Hollywood Producer) ----> Kevin Bacon (actor)

Wow, 4 degrees from Kevin Bacon!!!

Gah, you people just don't get it. The blogsforbush is a fucking joke in response to this (http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/web_of_connections.pdf).

Again, $150 million for the Democrats' 527 ads - compared to $150,000 by the SBVT. Well, now it's more like $1 million for the SBVT ads because Kerry completely fell on his face trying to ban it.

Didn't Kerry learn anything from his buddy Moore? Controversy is the best advertisement.

Bring it on! (http://www.nypost.com/commentary/18976.htm)

Devastating (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=1&u=/latimests/20040826/ts_latimes/bushedgesaheadofkerryforthe1sttime).

Devastating (http://usatoday.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=USATODAY.com+-+Poll%3A+Bush+has+slim+lead+over+Kerry&expire=&urlID=11455309&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitic selections%2Fnation%2Fpolls%2F2004-08-26-usat-poll_x.htm&partnerID=1660).

Desperation (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&u=/ap/20040826/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_18&printer=1).

I just wish the election would get here already.

LL wth are you talking about.


Let me explain this as simply as possible to you so even you can't miss it.

In that comment Kerry is playing off of a fear that had been instilled in the American people at that time, that our men were over in Vietnam committing murder, rape, torture, and learning to be criminals and that when the war was over they would be coming back and be unleashed on the American public as horrible monsters. Wth does vietnamization have to do with it?

What was Kerry's alternative to Vietnamization? Immediate pullout... he scoffed at the suggestion that it would lead to a bloodbath. What happened after we pulled out? A bloodbath. Kerry was just doing what he always does... trying to score politcal points off of whatever is popular at the moment.

In that comment Kerry is playing off of a fear that had been instilled in the American people at that time, that our men were over in Vietnam committing murder, rape, torture, and learning to be criminals and that when the war was over they would be coming back and be unleashed on the American public as horrible monsters. Adding quite a bit to that arent ya?
The fact is that the country did have a problem with returning vets for a while. The incarceration rate was pretty high for a while, PTSD was a serious problem, drug use, addictions, suicides..
I dont think Kerry ever meant what you are trying to extract from it, but people came back from that war pretty goddamn fucked up.
great americans come in all types.
Ron Kovic
http://www.probush.com/ron_kovic.jpg

http://www.probush.com/traitor.htm (everyone laugh at the looney)

http://chicago.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/10/ron_kovic2.jpg



What was Kerry's alternative to Vietnamization? Immediate pullout Well... ya.... Once we decided we didnt want to win the war, we should have left. Its that simple. Either do it, or dont get people killed in some exercise in futility.
The pullout didnt have to be immediate.. but maybe a little faster than 4 fucking years. Nixon didnt want to be the guy who presided over a US "loss".
But the Soliders never lost a single battle, the failure was one of policy. We won every single battle, we outkilled the enemy by some gross percentage as 20 to 1 or something.

Hey look! We're still arguing about Vietnam 3 months away from the election. LMAO

Nevermind Kerry's Senate testimony, just because the Vietnamese are STILL using it in defense of their own actions during the war means NOTHING. Move along now, nothing to see here (http://vietnamnews.vnagency.com.vn/2004-06/10/Stories/16.htm).

Candidate in this year’s American presidential elections, John Kerry, who fought in the war, went further in his criticism. In a statement to the US’ Senate Committee on Foreign Relations in 1971, he said the war crimes committed by US soldiers in Southeast Asia "were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."
I thought Kerry was just retelling what people told him at the Winter Soldier investigation L2? Nah, isolated incidents right? RIGHT?

What was Kerry's alternative to Vietnamization? Immediate pullout... he scoffed at the suggestion that it would lead to a bloodbath. What happened after we pulled out?

I agree that in his speech he was awfully niave about the true nature of the enemy and what they would do once we left...but either way there was going to be a bloodbath, by pulling out slowly and allowing more Americans to die, we accomplished what exactly?

Here is my take on the whole thing.

George W. Bush:
IMO he dodged service in Vietnam using his family contacts to ensure a cushy position in the Guard where he was slack in his duties. At least Kerry was there (in Vietnam). Bush has utterly exasperated much of the rest of the world and at times has shown a willingness to erode more freedoms at home than I am comfortable with. He puts on the appearance of trying to take the high road but is cheering on the Swift Boat Vets behind the scenes. I won't even go into my disagreement with some of his other domestic policies.

John Kerry:
IMO Kerry manipulated his service in Vietnam with a future political career in mind. I believe the Swift Boat Vets when they say that he faked at least one, possibly two of his medals to further that goal. I find Kerry to be an even bigger hypocrite than Bush about nearly everything of issue in the campaign. I have no doubt that he fully supports and has directed assistance to MOVEON.org and other 527's dedicated to attacking Bush whilst whining about attacks directed his way. Kerry's service as a Senator seems completely mediocre and unremarkable, likely the same traits he would exhibit if he were president.

Both of these men make me sick and neither deserve to be president of the US IMO. I have seen no real issues of substance regarding policy being debated between them to help me decide which clown will do the least damage to my country. The jury is still out on who I will vote for this November.

/applaud Gulor

Yet another election trying to figure out who the lesser of two evils is. :cool:

Gulor,

You summed up my very same feelings. I honestly could give two shits about this bunk and want to know more about the policy these two have in mind. The Economy is my biggest concern, not who did what when where. It's the here and now, I'm concerned with and as you said neither tickle my fancy.

Hahahahah that page own L2.

President elite action force figurine !!! rofl gogo action man.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040827/ap_on_el_pr/swift_boat_witness

The funny thing is how Kerry, after giving this big speech saying we need to move on and talk about the issues and how he was putting all of this behind him to do so, sends his whipping boy Cleland to Texas for this big publicity stunt about it.

whipping boy Cleland
The images...the images...please turn off the images in my mind!!! ;)

You should be glad he did that Cristo...the more the conversation stays on Vietnam, the better Bush looks.

I don't know about glad, but I do get a laugh out of Kerry's desperation or stupidty or whatever the heck it is that makes him bring this up over and over and over again.I got a real kick out of the Kerry campaign admitting he personally tried to call and get people who would eventually help form SBVFT to not speak out against what he said in his book right before he released it.

But the Soliders never lost a single battle, the failure was one of policy. We won every single battle, we outkilled the enemy by some gross percentage as 20 to 1 or something.


Lost because of people like Kerry who joined communist organizations like VVAW, who were loaded with frauds claiming to be vets, waging a propaganda war against the US, and giving hope to the enemy. That's what paralyzed the politicians.

You think I'm reading into his statement? Baloney, that's exactly what he was talking about. I believe that was right after he said that he speaks for this group of 150 vets (many of which were not vets or even ever in the military) who represent a much larger group of 2000, who represent all the men who have served in Vietnam who would all say the same thing if they were there. Yeah that's why all the vets I've talked to in the last couple weeks, to a man, hated Kerry for what he said. Kerry likes to have it both ways. I am just telling you what these people said, but I represent all Vietnam vets. You think that the VVAW gave him that speech and said read it? No he carefully crafted the thing (well there's speculation that one of JFKs speechwriters did it for him) for maximum effect without regard to the fact that he knew he was betraying his "band of brothers."

Lost because of people like Kerry who joined communist organizations like VVAW, who were loaded with frauds claiming to be vets, waging a propaganda war against the US, and giving hope to the enemy. That's what paralyzed the politicians.

Thats just overpoweringly wrong.
We lost because we didnt want to invade the North because of the risk for war with China and Russia. Thats the ONLY reason. Our troops were more demoralized by having to sit back react to whatever the enemy did, to try to guess who was VC and who was friendly, by fighting a war on "their" ground.
Saying we lost because of protestors at home isnt just clueless revisionist history, its dangerous and at its core, in favor of suppressing dissent.

Let me ask you this. Is protesting a War the United States is in Immoral? Should we support any war this country enters into no matter how we feel about it?

LL, you're asking a guy who is only allowed to think when Mr.Bush gives his nod of approval.

Infact, I think Mr.Bush has his hand up Winterwong's arse like a puppet.