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Original letter which broght him up on charges:
<www.donferrioli.com/creativity/march14.htm (http://www.donferrioli.com/creativity/march14.htm)>

I don't see him as disloyal, just stupid. One does not publicly criticize one's boss if one intends to remain employed. He may not like it, but Bush is the commander in chief of the armed forces of the US while he is president and no commander will utilize someone he does not trust in a position that is sensitive in nature (especially intelligence).

US servicemen are pledged to defend the constitution of the US, not the president. But General MacArthur showed that opening one's mouth against a sitting president will get you canned. I am not sure I want someone with so poor a grasp on politics analyzing for our intelligence services. If he could not see the obvious repercussions of his letter, he is obviously not going to do better dealing with foreign situations.

I think it is safe to say there has never been a president who did not have members of the military disagree with them. But private disagreement and making political statements in a newspaper are two different levels of disagreement. Getting tossed out of the service for this sort of letter is not a recent development...it is almost tradition.

It is normal, and acceptable, for people to get canned from government work/the military for speaking out against the government's political policies?

Meh. Talk about a good way to monitize politics.

No its not normal for people to get fired for speaking out against the government's policies. Politicians build their careers on speaking out against the policies of the current schmucks in office in the hopes of getting elected.

It isn't against the law to disagree with the President or be of an opposing political bent when you are in the military but there are regulations governing visible and vocal displays of that. Its a fine line and may or may not have been crossed in this particular instance.

There was a case during the first gulf war where a Marine ultimately was discharged for declaring he was a conscientious objector. The kicker was, he didn't declare this until after his unit had received orders to be deployed to Saudi Arabia.

I remember that case. It was almost funny. You can get away with a lot more if you get your story to the press.

There is a fundamental difference between a congressman and a soldier publishing criticisms of a president. The congressman does not work for/under the president while a soldier does.

A private citizen also falls under civil law while a soldier is tried under military law which is more strict. Public insubordination is a serious offense, even though to a civilian it may seem like "free speech".

Any other politician who works in the executive branch and bad mouths the boss gets canned too, just like any other organization.

Funny, In alot of countries he would have just been shot.

You're right...that's a much more acceptable way to deal with the situation!

If he had any other job than in the military I would say that it was rediculous that he got fired.
However he is in the military and by joining the millitary he gave up the right to freedom of speech on certain issues.

The big question here is : was this such a case?
I think so he questioned the reason for the war and that is a cardinal sin for a soldier.
Be it indirect but still.
I don't see how critisicing the president could be the reason for him being fired in this case. You don't have to like the guy to be able to a good job for him.
But saying you are against a war you're fighting in is a big no.

If I were employed somewhere, went to a newspaper and griped about the CEO of my company's politics I would also expect reprocussions. Demotion or firing among them.

Regarding his statements about the Dixie Chicks receiving death threats and some woman never being allowed to play Borders again:

The CIA, FBI, NSA etc...were not the ones sending death threats to the Dixie Chicks. They made a public statement about how embarrassed they were that Bush was the president. They did not realize there was going to be such a backlash. This is not the government (or anyone else's) fault. Just like they have a right to say what they want, we have a right to say "Your an idiot". It bothers me that people think there will be no reaction when they say something contreversial. How dumb are they?

Regarding the woman who will never play Borders again, wouldn't that decision be up to the President or CEO or Board of Directors of Borders? They can hire and fire whoever they want. If they don't want to take the chance on someone spouting off political commentary thats their business, not his. As it turns out, I think Borders was heavy handed in that situation and they overreacted horribly, but it is their perogative to do so. It is their store.

Moral of the story: Dont bite the hand that feeds you and wonder (publicly) why you get the newspaper to the nose. If you do, your a moron.

ever heard of freedom of speech ?

isnt that part of the american constitution and part of most constitutions in the democratic western countries ?

if you ignore that right of freedom of speech and cannot live and work with different point of views you not better than saddam hussein and the taleban regime ;)

i would rather say conservative people are not loyal to the constitution .... if it come to the freedom of speech.

keep quiet or get kicked ... that kinda lame and weak. that works until someone kicks back ...

Well.. surpisingly.. again you have no clue Hartmut.

Freedom of speech only protects a person from being arrested for what he says. You are allowed to critisize the government as much as you want.
He may have a lawsuit for wrongful termination.. depends on the rules he entered employment under.. and I dont know about the military.

Freedom of speech does not protect you from consequences of saying what you say... There are other laws that do that independant of that Right. IF applicable...

The Dixie Chicks, for example had no reason to cry about freedom of speech. They used theirs, and people responded..

Freedom of Speech is not Freedom from repercussions of stupidity

LL, explaining this concept to Hartmut is just a waste of time. If he doesn't get it by now, after NUMEROUS explanations, then he never will.

My conclusion is that he ain't got the sense that god gave a bowling ball.

I point to Zehn's sig as the best example of "omg no my freedom of speechz0rs" promoting stupidity.

--Cen

Who with the what now?

In America Freedom of Speech does *NOT* give you the unilaterral right to say anything you want at any time. Running into a crowded movie theatre and shouting "FIRE" is ILLEGAL and not an extension of Free Speech.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and ideas - however expression of those ideas/thoughts/opinions are governed by both criminal and civil laws in the US. For example, I can call someone a drooling idiot in public, and they can turn around and SUE me for defamation of character....

Having the right to speak freely does not give one license to speak anything at any time w/o consequense. Same goes with the "freedom of expression." For example, while it is legal to burn the US flag in Texas, it is also *perfectly* legal to walk up to said flag burner and punch them *ONE* time as an expression against burning US flags...

In the case of this Marine... UCMJ makes public statements such as this one borderline, if not over the line, illegal for service men/women. If it was a conversation he was having with someone in a bar it would have been completely overlooked - but because it was published in a newpaper and made public knowledge it counts as insubordination towards a superior officer which IS punishable under UCMJ. This guy really should have known better than to post a letter to the editor of a newpaper with these kinds of views. It is *WELL* known in the military that such actions are several CLM (career limiting maneuvers) and can land your happy ass in jail.

Just my 2 cents...

>> ever heard of freedom of speech ?

Sure. It means that the government cannot jail you for speaking out against it. It is in no way a guarantee of employment of said government that you are bashing. If I went to the local bigwig newspaper where I live and started bashing my CEO to a reporter, who then printed that bashing, I would expect to be demoted or fired. To expect less is to not realize that there are reactions to your actions. As the saying goes, his mouth wrote checks that his body (in this case his career) could not cash.

>> isnt that part of the american constitution and part >> of most constitutions in the democratic western >>
>> countries ?

Yup. But they only make up a small part of the world. In most countries (see: Cuba, N. Korea, Libya, Iraq (pre Saddam) etc.. he would have just been executed

>> if you ignore that right of freedom of speech and >> cannot live and work with different point of views you >> not better than saddam hussein and the taleban >>
regime

He was fired, not shot. He can still go out and get another job, utilizing the skills he gained during his military stay. He was not drawn and quartered. Or castrated. Or burned with acid. Or had any of his limbs chopped off. These are the kinds of things that happen to NORMAL people who spoke out against the government in the countries you mention. You cannot compare them. They are not on the same scale.

Anyway, we are not ignoring his freedom of speech. We are just reiterating that what you say has meaning. And sometimes, reprecussions. If you don't believe me, head to Harlem and start shouting some good racial epithets. Then try to explain to the mob that is kicking your ass how you have the right to say whatever you want.

And I quote:

Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Show me where it says freedom from reprecussions.

>> keep quiet or get kicked ... that kinda lame and >>
weak. that works until someone kicks back ...

As long as you agree with what is being said, right? Your a moron. grow up.

thanks for the answers , and STFU to the people that just insulting me. if you cant firgure out exaggeration in a posting you should take some more english lessions in school i guess.

anyways questioning authorities is always a diffucult thing , but its much different handled here in germany i think , guess less "patriotic" .

but i doubt this guy will get easy a new job now after the mediacoverage nobody wants to burn his fingers by giving him a job and draw his "bad reputation" on the company.
he got not executed, but his economical future is executed for the next months/years for sure.

so i guess he must have hit a waspnest when starting questioning his authorities ....

but i doubt this guy will get easy a new job now after the mediacoverage

McDonalds probably wont care. He can work there.

and STFU to the people that just insulting me

Over the years you have limited the options in responding.

if you cant firgure out exaggeration in a posting you should take some more english lessions in school i guess.

Maybe you should too.

but i doubt this guy will get easy a new job now

(To wit) Yes, that's possible, but if I cut off my johnson I've got one guy to blame if not easy will I get laid.

but its much different handled here in germany i think , guess less "patriotic" .

"Plees, schtep into zees room for delousing...Jude."

...

I can't argue with you on that point.

Lovingly yours,

thanks for the answers , and STFU to the people that just insulting me. if you cant firgure out exaggeration in a posting you should take some more english lessions in school i guess.

Perfect example of Freedom of Speech... and the potential backlash which can result.

anyways questioning authorities is always a diffucult thing , but its much different handled here in germany i think , guess less "patriotic" .

Dude, this has *NOTHING* to do with patriotism. This has to do with well established and documented LAWS which all US military personell live under while serving in the military (called the UCMJ) This soldier, under articles in the UCMJ, BROKE THE LAW with his letter to the newpaper. Please explain to me how this has anything to do with patriotism.

As to his economic future - I have no doubt this fellow will have no serious issues in obtaining gainful employment within a month or 2. US is huge, and there are thousands of companies in each city hiring - I am sure that he will have no problems.

>> but i doubt this guy will get easy a new job now after the mediacoverage nobody wants to burn his fingers by giving him a job and draw his "bad reputation" on the company

In two weeks no one will remember his name. Look at it as a blessing or a curse, but it is the way it is.

you know this is hilarious...

> thanks for the answers , and STFU to the people that just insulting me. if you cant firgure out exaggeration in a posting you should take some more english lessions in school i guess.


concidering if you want to make yourself seem to be exaggerating in a post, you NEED TO HAVE SOME PROPPER ENGLISH to establish that, or put something in there that was an exageration, but it just seemed to be another one of your typical bull shit posts