But after your absolutely idiotic comparision of slavery to current freedoms I don't know if your judgement is sound anymore.

No no no San keep to whatever your doing.

Yes Slavery and modern live are exactly the same.

Wow, you have divorced yourself from all sanity. I'm glad we don't share, what was it you said...chi?

weirdo...

I said there were parallels between slavery centuries ago and our current condition. I never said they were the same thing. Obviously, they are not precisely the same animal.

It's interesting to watch the reaction when suggesting that we may not be as free as social norms would have us believe.

It's simple, really. Forget all the talk about food, jobs, shelter, etc and stop to consider only one thing: money.

Without US Dollars, it's damn near impossible to function in this country. Most of us have transacted every monetary exchange in our lives using US Dollars.

US Dollars -- more accurately Federal Reserve Notes -- are only created through debt. If you hold a single US Dollar printed in the last several decades, you are holding a representation of someone's debt. Simple as that. It could not exist without debt having been created to back it.

So, what is debt? Well, we all know what it is, but let's refresh:

- Something owed, such as money, goods, or services.
- An obligation or liability to pay or render something to someone else.
- The condition of owing.
- An offense requiring forgiveness or reparation; a trespass.

Pretending that debt is not a form of slavery is nearly as absurd as suggesting that wage slavery and plantation slavery are exactly the same thing. The living conditions may be quite a bit better, but being indentured is still being indentured. You and I are little more than glorified vassals.

All of the other arguments, like those that I made on the other thread, really stem from this root cause in one way or another. As long as we are conditioned to trade in debt, we will always be on one end or the other of this wage slavery stick.

I invite you to step back, look at the bigger picture, and actually give it critical thought, before firing off the predictable ad-hom retort.

How many of us are truly free to do as we desire in this country?

In my philosophical mode id say to Sancheks claim that nobody is really free, because we have bills and responsibilities. I disagree. Most of that enslavement to our desires and wishes, selfish or otherwise.

I agree with you 100% that we are our own worst enemies, when it comes from limiting success within the system. People who blame their failures on others are typically lazy, irresponsible idiots.

However, I don't think any amount of success changes the fundamental nature of the system within which we (potentially) succeed.

wouldn't the essence of lack of freedom, or slavery, be the total subversion of your own desires, and subsequent choices for someone elses?


Commitments and duty are different from slavery. As long as we willingly entered the agreement, then it cannot be called slavery in my opinion.

With debt, there is an exchange of goods or services. Yes, I have to pay this debt, but I received something for it that I desired. With slavery there is no agreement or exchange. We go to work and trade our most precious commodity, time on this earth, working for another in exchange for payment. A value is set on our time, and during those hours, we subvert our own interests for anothers. Is this slavery? No, because we have entered into a contract.

Seems like you guys are talking about two different issues.... but both of you are correct.

With debt, there is an exchange of goods or services. Yes, I have to pay this debt, but I received something for it that I desired. With slavery there is no agreement or exchange. We go to work and trade our most precious commodity, time on this earth, working for another in exchange for payment. A value is set on our time, and during those hours, we subvert our own interests for anothers. Is this slavery? No, because we have entered into a contract.

You're mixing up discrete, personal debt with our aggregate monetary system.

Personally, I am 100% debt free today. Yet, every dollar I physically hold in my safe and bank account is created through debt. Even though I've earned those dollars without forcing anyone into debt, those dollars were created by someone's debt to the FED or its affiliates.

Even though I'm not party to any debt related contracts, I have little choice but to participate in this debt slavery system. None of us do. Every single dollar you've ever held in your hand and spent has been created through the debt of someone else. Their servitude to some master.

It is mathematically impossible to pay all debt owed in our system. It is a system of implicit, perpetual servitude.

I think you may be twisting the definition of debt somewhat when talking about the money system.

People can absolutely choose to live outside of our current system, and do so quite happily. For my part, largely because of my wife, I choose to live inside the system. I don't owe any debt beyond my student loans, but I do own a house and vehicle, and if I don't keep working I lose those items (property tax, insurance, upkeep). I consciously choose to purchase those items knowing the limits they placed on my life. That's not slavery, that's a lifestyle choice. Servitude and slavery are different concepts.

Forget about personal debt. I'm not talking about your house or car loan. Those are certainly things that bind you, but you're right that they were your own choices.

Even if you are completely free of personal debt, every dollar you hold still represents a debt somewhere. US Dollars literally cannot exist without being created through debt.

What's worse, part of your income taxes go to pay back the interest on the Federal debt necessary to create the very dollars you pay the tax with. It's a bottomless hole.

Mental masturbation :rolleyes:

Beats mental flaccidity!

Beats mental flaccidity!

:eek:

Ayonae ro = mental viagra!

I do see your point ******** btw...

Not only is it a bottomless hole of modern serfdom, it's also destined to self-destruct when the debt instruments of the monetary source are devalued or otherwise stop being bought.

I've been suspicious of the credit issue for quite some time in this country. It seems apparent to me that it perpetuates it's own power and as such is reaching to all areas of life.

It would be interesting to see if the big 3 credit check companies have any ties to any of the credit lending institutions.

If? That's like saying it would be interesting to see is Bush and Cheney have any ties to big oil and defense contracting companies.

heh

Most of the credit counseling services are little more than fronts for credit card companies too. They get the majority of their funding from them.

It's important to note that even credit cards aren't the root of the evil here. If there were no credit cards whatsoever, our entire system of money would still be based on debt. Even if you removed loans between banks and persons/business, every dollar in the system would still be created through debt.

As long as we continue with the FED, there is no escaping the fundamental nature of our monetary system.