So lobbyist, Jack Abramoff has cut a deal. Any thoughts on whether this will be a positive step towards cleaning up the crap in Washington? Or will it be swept under the "rug" and soon forgotten, with business as usual before the next 3 months are out?

Abramoff's ties are extensive. It has the potential to dramatically impact Congress; the main question is how long it will take.

My money says that this will have a large impact on the coming mid-term elections, and that we may see some resignations prior to November.

What a slap on the wrist. I'll be (pleasantly) surprised if he spends a day in jail, and that $25m is likely 1/10th of what he got away with.

Nothing comes for free.... hopefully

I'll be (pleasantly) surprised if he spends a day in jail


He's not supposed to spend a day in jail. No one cares about him. He's supposed to provide a paper/email trail about DeLay et all.

The conservatives are suspiciously quiet today.

But at least he didn't get a blowjob from an intern!!

The conservatives are suspiciously quiet today.

Dunno why, there's egg on both party's faces. I've said it before, lobbyists and their money is not the problem. Remove the power that that money buys is the solution, ie smaller government!

Dunno why, there's egg on both party's faces. I've said it before, lobbyists and their money is not the problem. Remove the power that that money buys is the solution, ie smaller government!

2 things:

Can you define your meaning of smaller government?

I'm not sure that smaller government is the answer. The money and lobbyists would still be there and the problem would not go away. The smaller government that the so called "conservatives" want seems to be less about small than it does about intrusive.

Everyone assumes that he is strictly tied to conservatives. I hear he plays both sides of the fence... but that is just rumor.. We shall see

The Republican party did some very aggressive lobby association controls in the mid 90s in what is sometimes refered to as the "K Street Project" so it is entirely possible his interactions were limited to that side of the aisle. The Bush apologists can note that doesn't imply the Democrats are somehow clean, just not specifically dirty this time.

Can you define your meaning of smaller government?I just realized my problem. I can't discuss core values and beliefs with a toon that has his finger up his nose.

Several Democrats received funds from Abramoff-related client groups. Perhaps impropriety was involved somewhere; we don't know yet. Only Republicans received money from Abramoff himself, and at the very least Bob Ney of Ohio is caught in the crosshairs. Abramoff himself has said his dealings "could implicate 60 lawmakers" according to the WSJ. It's improbable that all those are Republicans, but Abramoff has been the primary Republican meta-lobbyist for years now.

"The health of a nation is inversely proportional to the number of laws needed to govern it." - Thomas Frey - Executive Director, The DaVinci Institute

I just realized my problem. I can't discuss core values and beliefs with a toon that has his finger up his nose.


Changed, for discussion purposes!

Tucker Carlson has quite an interesting take (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10693414/#060104a) on this

hmmm

http://www.wgal.com/news/5839780/detail.html

Thor,

ever heard the term 6 to one, half dozen to another? Who gives a rats ass if you get money from the person or his front company. EVERYONE knew where the money was coming from, and to try and minimize it for the democrats that way is cheap. That is like saying Clinton did not have sexual relations..his cigar did.

Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow knew exactly where they were getting paid from when they pushed for what abrahoff wanted. But I am sure that the media will focus mainly on Republicans...spin, spin and spin some more...

Actually, some portions of the media (it's not the monolithic contrivance some like to portray) is making it all look more bipartisan than it is. But Abramoff has always been a Republican bulldog (he even used to chair the College Republicans), with DeLay being among his closest allies. What matters is whether the donations were illegal or not and whether it can be shown that Abramoff laundered donation money through front charities such as the DeLay-tied Celebrations for Children.

If Dems are culpable, then they need to be treated as such according to the law. But Abramoff is the chief player of the Republican money funneling machine that is K Street; it'll be very interesting to see how far the investigations go.

Related to the Tucker Calson thing:

http://www.di-links.com/audio/Sermon-on-Homosexuality.mp3

great stuff there.

Yes ...lesbians...those disgusting creatures. I agree with the reverand.

I've studied lesbians as I've said before. I find it difficult to believe that others havent noticed the hypnotic powers they hold over us. Powers that could only come from the devil himself...as they passionately grind their bodies against each other...small beads of sweat forming on them...the breathing...soft moans...

OMFG...see...they have this power. Its almost hypnotic at times.

Playing both sides....



UGLY TROUBLE FOR BIG-SHOT DEM

Harry Reid Caught in Abramoff Plea Deal?

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/REID.jpgThis morning's announcement that Washington super-lobbyist Jack Abramoff has reached a plea bargain deal with the Justice Department has reporters salavating over what they hint is going to be a Republican mega-scandal.

But it turns out that the most prominent player in Abramoff's web of influence was reportedly none other than the Senate's top Democrat, Harry Reid.

In a little noticed story in November, the Associated Press revealed that Reid had accepted tens of thousands of dollars from an Abramoff client, the Coushatta Indian tribe, after interceding with Secretary of the Interior Gail Norton over a casino dispute with a rival tribe.

Reid "sent a letter to Norton on March 5, 2002," reported the AP. "The next day, the Coushattas issued a $5,000 check to Reid's tax-exempt political group, the Searchlight Leadership Fund. A second tribe represented by Abramoff sent an additional $5,000 to Reid's group. Reid ultimately received more than $66,000 in Abramoff-related donations between 2001 and 2004."

Questioned about the donations last month by "Fox News Sunday's" Chris Wallace, Reid immediately turned testy.

"Don't try to say I received money from Abramoff. I've never met the man, don't know anything," he insisted.

When Wallace protested: "But you've received money from [one of his Indian tribe clients]," the top Democrat shot back: "Make sure that all your viewers understand - not a penny from Abramoff. I've been on the Indian Affairs Committee my whole time in the Senate."

When the Fox host pressed again on the Abramoff-linked donations, a flustered-sounding Reid continued to stonewall, saying: "I'll repeat, Abramoff gave me no money. His firm gave me no money. He may have worked a firm where people have given me money. But I have -- I feel totally at ease that I haven't done anything that is even close to being wrong."

--Newsmax

66k? That's petty cash.

True but leftists are jumping on the BUSHITLER band wagon with this and they need to understand this will throw everyone under a bus not just righties!

Newt Gingrich summed it up pretty well on Fox this afternoon. The reason more republicans are being seen as taking money from the guy is because they are the ones in power; if you want something done in DC you naturally are going to go to the ones with the influence and power. And, when the Dems were in power it most likely was reversed.

Neither side is any more corrupt than the other. Power corrupts, and whoever has it at the moment will have more opportunity to be corrupted.

I love this new Amorality.

Its totally fine if someone else it. "Party of Personal Responsibility" my ass.

Hold your leaders accountable? Fuck no... just find some Democrat who did something closely related and the normal boundries of right and wrong vanish in some self insulated cocoon of denial, distraction, disinformation and deceit. If that doesnt work, play yourself off as the hapless victim of some evil liberal conspiracy. And if all else fails, fight against some made up war against Christmas...

How about, Oh I dont know... have principles. Its a farce watching conservatives morph into what they profess to despise.

How about, Oh I dont know... have principles. Its a farce watching conservatives morph into what they profess to despise.


Amen!

The party of less government has imposed more government into people's lives than anyone would have imagined even as recently as Reagan.

The party that complained about out of control spending has once again sunk the country into enormous debt, which will take a generation or two to pay off.

The party that claims patriotism and morality as its guiding principles has shown once again that money and power are more tangible and therefore more important. (And this covers much more than simply the recent Abramoff scandal)

I wonder if any of these folks have looked at the Contract With America lately. They have obviously forgotten much of the rest of the last 15 years of history.

LL,

I never said that I am not holding anyone on the republican side accountable.. but I am not going to sit by and listen to people point at only one side of the table. Especially with elections coming up, everyone needs to be put under the spotlight, not whoever the media decides to pick and choose ( Delay). When you have people on the news saying this could be the biggest scandel of all time and not mentioning how BOTH sides of congress are on the take, then that is wrong.

The main stream media wrong? NEVER! There is NO liberal bias in the media! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

"The traitor Murtha says he would no longer join the military. Thank God. Anti-American scum like him has no place in the armed forces."
-Gunny Bob Newman - 850 KOA 7-10p


Funny how this guy Gunny Bob speaks with disrespect for John Murtha. 20 years in and retires as an E-7 (makes you wonder who he pissed off).

Marines don't shit on Marines. Murtha didn't shit on Marines, I wonder why this Gunny Bob did.

I hate the cut and paste thing but best to let Gunny answer that for you...



GUNNY BOB'S COLUMN DECEMBER 06, 2005:

America’s Traitors: Hang ‘Em High

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/rosenbergs.jpg
Julius and Ethel RosenbergJulius and Ethel Rosenberg. Robert Garwood. Clayton Lonetree.

Four Americans with one thing in common: they betrayed their country for personal gain.

In the case of the Rosenbergs, the communist spies and traitors helped their beloved Soviet Union acquire classified intelligence at America’s expense. America’s loss and the Soviet Union’s gain equated to the Rosenberg’s political gain.

Robert Garwood, a Marine in the Vietnam War, was captured and then went over to the enemy’s side in exchange for favorable treatment.

Clayton Lonetree, also a Marine, passed on classified intelligence to the Soviets in exchange for sexual favors.

Note that America never declared war on the Soviet Union or North Vietnam, yet the Rosenbergs, Garwood and Lonetree were all charged and found guilty of crimes based upon treasonous activity: espionage in the case of the Rosenbergs and Lonetree, collaborating with (aiding) the enemy in Garwood’s case.

The Rosenbergs got their due, whereas Garwood and Lonetree got off comparatively light.

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/Murtha5.jpgToday we have a fresh crop of American traitors. To the great humiliation of the legendary Marine Corps, one is a retired Marine Reserve colonel. Another is a former naval officer. The third is a medical doctor and former governor. All three have openly and brazenly aided the enemy by offering them encouragement and incentive to continue their war against America, and all three have knowingly and willingly insulted the American military and attempted to demoralize the very men and women serving in our armed forces, whose mission it is to defend the Constitution of the United States that guarantees the rights of all Americans.

Yet no charges have been brought against these traitors–Rep. John Murtha, Sen. John Kerry and Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean–and none will, despite their hero status within al Qaeda.

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/Kerry5.jpgAfter John Kerry aided the enemy following his service in Vietnam as a naval officer, he was declared a hero of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam and even traveled to that nation to receive the honors. Until recently, when it became a political liability, his photo and award hung in the War Remnants Museum there. On CBS’ "Face the Nation" last Sunday, Comrade Kerry again aided the enemy, this time by telling host Bob Schieffer, "And there is no reason, Bob, why young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children . . . "

Naturally, the far-left Schieffer refused to challenge Kerry on this jaw-dropping claim.

Osama grooves on John Kerry.

Last month, in a continuance of his run-for-it doctrine we first saw in the 1990s with America’s attempt to feed the starving in Somalia, Rep. John Murtha gave a big leg up to al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al Zarqawi and Osama bin Laden, when he demanded that America retreat, surrender and then negotiate with the enemy.

Osama loves John Murtha.

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/howard_dean.jpgAnd yesterday, in a radio interview, Howard Dean insisted that the American military was so incompetent and moronic that it stood no chance of victory against al Qaeda in Iraq. Absolutely no chance.

Dean is now on Osama’s Ramadan card list.

The outrageous statements of this treasonous trio directly aided the enemy by giving them marvelous ammunition in their recruiting and propaganda campaigns. That’s called knowingly and willingly aiding the enemy. In the case of Kerry and Murtha, because they have sworn oaths of allegiance to the United States, they are in violation of U.S. Code Title 18, Section 2381, "Treason," which is punishable by death:

"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

Sadly, Dean appears to be off the hook when it comes to treason because he has not sworn allegiance to America.

U.S. Code, Title 18, Section 2388 states in part:


"Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully makes or conveys false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."All three members of the treasonous trio are covered by this law.

Even more sadly is the fact that none of these collaborators will be charged. Most Americans simply don’t see treason and aiding the enemy as being all that bad. (This fact will be demonstrated once again by the hate email I will receive from those who loath me for citing the law and speaking the truth.) And purely for political purposes, there’s no way the attorney general of the United States is going to bring charges against them.

Kerry, Murtha and Dean have betrayed their country and aided the enemy for personal gain.

Somewhere, two ropes and prison cell are being wasted.

Sorry I don't have the exact quote, but, after his comment that "The National Guard is worn out, and can't effectively fight any more" Sen. Murtha needs to sip on a big glass of shut the fuck up.

He's a fuckstick.

I hate the cut and paste thing but best to let Gunny answer that for you...



GUNNY BOB'S COLUMN DECEMBER 06, 2005:

America’s Traitors: Hang ‘Em High

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/rosenbergs.jpg
Julius and Ethel RosenbergJulius and Ethel Rosenberg. Robert Garwood. Clayton Lonetree.

Four Americans with one thing in common: they betrayed their country for personal gain.

In the case of the Rosenbergs, the communist spies and traitors helped their beloved Soviet Union acquire classified intelligence at America’s expense. America’s loss and the Soviet Union’s gain equated to the Rosenberg’s political gain.

Robert Garwood, a Marine in the Vietnam War, was captured and then went over to the enemy’s side in exchange for favorable treatment.

Clayton Lonetree, also a Marine, passed on classified intelligence to the Soviets in exchange for sexual favors.

Note that America never declared war on the Soviet Union or North Vietnam, yet the Rosenbergs, Garwood and Lonetree were all charged and found guilty of crimes based upon treasonous activity: espionage in the case of the Rosenbergs and Lonetree, collaborating with (aiding) the enemy in Garwood’s case.

The Rosenbergs got their due, whereas Garwood and Lonetree got off comparatively light.

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/Murtha5.jpgToday we have a fresh crop of American traitors. To the great humiliation of the legendary Marine Corps, one is a retired Marine Reserve colonel. Another is a former naval officer. The third is a medical doctor and former governor. All three have openly and brazenly aided the enemy by offering them encouragement and incentive to continue their war against America, and all three have knowingly and willingly insulted the American military and attempted to demoralize the very men and women serving in our armed forces, whose mission it is to defend the Constitution of the United States that guarantees the rights of all Americans.

Yet no charges have been brought against these traitors–Rep. John Murtha, Sen. John Kerry and Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean–and none will, despite their hero status within al Qaeda.

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/Kerry5.jpgAfter John Kerry aided the enemy following his service in Vietnam as a naval officer, he was declared a hero of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam and even traveled to that nation to receive the honors. Until recently, when it became a political liability, his photo and award hung in the War Remnants Museum there. On CBS’ "Face the Nation" last Sunday, Comrade Kerry again aided the enemy, this time by telling host Bob Schieffer, "And there is no reason, Bob, why young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children . . . "

Naturally, the far-left Schieffer refused to challenge Kerry on this jaw-dropping claim.

Osama grooves on John Kerry.

Last month, in a continuance of his run-for-it doctrine we first saw in the 1990s with America’s attempt to feed the starving in Somalia, Rep. John Murtha gave a big leg up to al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al Zarqawi and Osama bin Laden, when he demanded that America retreat, surrender and then negotiate with the enemy.

Osama loves John Murtha.

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/howard_dean.jpgAnd yesterday, in a radio interview, Howard Dean insisted that the American military was so incompetent and moronic that it stood no chance of victory against al Qaeda in Iraq. Absolutely no chance.

Dean is now on Osama’s Ramadan card list.

The outrageous statements of this treasonous trio directly aided the enemy by giving them marvelous ammunition in their recruiting and propaganda campaigns. That’s called knowingly and willingly aiding the enemy. In the case of Kerry and Murtha, because they have sworn oaths of allegiance to the United States, they are in violation of U.S. Code Title 18, Section 2381, "Treason," which is punishable by death:

"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

Sadly, Dean appears to be off the hook when it comes to treason because he has not sworn allegiance to America.

U.S. Code, Title 18, Section 2388 states in part:



"Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully makes or conveys false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."All three members of the treasonous trio are covered by this law.


Even more sadly is the fact that none of these collaborators will be charged. Most Americans simply don’t see treason and aiding the enemy as being all that bad. (This fact will be demonstrated once again by the hate email I will receive from those who loath me for citing the law and speaking the truth.) And purely for political purposes, there’s no way the attorney general of the United States is going to bring charges against them.

Kerry, Murtha and Dean have betrayed their country and aided the enemy for personal gain.

Somewhere, two ropes and prison cell are being wasted.


LOL...this guy makes it pretty hard to not trash his average service record. He forgets that one of his duties as a Marine was to protect the rights of American citizens, one of those rights being free speech.


Those that turn a blind eye to the wrongful actions of government are as guilty of the crimes that government commits. (Ever see films of German citizens burying dead concentration camp victims?)

Heres some excerpts of John Kerry's testimony before the senate in 1971. (The testimony that the so called right finds treasonous)


...In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart....


We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastically molded after our own image were hard put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.



We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone on peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Vietcong, North Vietnamese, or American.


We watched the U.S. falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while month after month we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using weapons against "oriental human beings," with quotation marks around that. We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater or let us say a non-third-world people theater, and so we watched while men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken, and after losing one platoon or two platoons they marched away to leave the high for the reoccupation by the North Vietnamese because we watched pride allow the most unimportant of battles to be blown into extravaganzas, because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point. And so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill 881's and Fire Base 6's and so many others.


We are also here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We are here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatric, and so many others. Where are they now that we, the men whom they sent off to war, have returned? These are commanders who have deserted their troops, and there is no more serious crime in the law of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded.
The Marines say they never leave even their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They have left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching begin them in the sun in this country....


I think it is ridiculous to assume we have to play this power game based on total warfare. I think there will be guerrilla wars and I think we must have a capability to fight those. And we may have to fight them somewhere based on legitimate threats, but we must learn, in this country, how to define those threats and that is what I would say to the question of world peace


You can read the full transcript here (http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html)


Please explain to me what those dead Marines at Khe Sanh died for? Or why those 101st Airborne troops died on Hamburger hill? Now, if you don't think its a fucking crime to have American soldiers take a piece of ground only to willingly abandon it to the enemy for no other reason than you feel it is no longer strategically necessary. If you don't think that it is a criminal act to have a policy of "if its dead and Vietnamese then its a VC" as a way to inflate body counts. If you don't think that it is in anyway wrong for the American government to have fought a war and based its measure of victory not on the ground held but by the number of deaths that were caused, then I have no words that will describe your ignorance of reality.

Shanno..
Abramoff is FARRR more involved with republicans than he is with any democrats..

In college, Abramoff organized Massachusetts campuses for Reagan's 1980 presidential campaign. He graduated from Brandeis University in 1981 and earned his JD at the Georgetown University Law Center in 1986.

After a campaign managed by Grover Norquist and aided by Ralph E. Reed, Jr., Abramoff was elected chairman of the College Republican National Committee. "It is not our job to seek peaceful coexistence with the Left," Abramoff was quoted as saying in the group's 1983 annual report, "Our job is to remove them from power permanently". Abramoff "changed the direction of the committee and made it more activist and conservative than ever before," notes the CRNC. [14]
At the CRNC in the 1980s, Abramoff developed political alliances with College Republican chapter presidents across the nation, many of whom went on to active roles in state and national politics and business. Some of these long-standing alliances are the subject of various federal investigations into Abramoff and his political and business dealings.



In the second half of the 1990s, Abramoff was employed by Preston Gates Ellis & Rouvelas Meeds LLP, the lobbying arm of Preston Gates & Ellis LLP, based in Seattle WA. Abramoff joined the law firm of Greenberg Traurig, which once described him as "directly involved in the Republican party and conservative movement leadership structures and is one of the leading fund raisers for the party and its congressional candidates." With the move to Greenberg Traurig Abramoff took as much as $6 million dollars worth of client "work" from his old firm.

Abramoff spent ten years in Hollywood, producing such movies as Red Scorpion, an anti-communist film made in 1988 just after his term with the College Republicans ended. This movie was filmed in South-West Africa (Namibia) and was funded by the apartheid regime in South Africa — see International Freedom Foundation.

Abramoff joined Citizens for America, a pro-Reagan group that helped Oliver North build support for the Nicaraguan contras and staged an unprecedented meeting of anti-Communist rebel leaders in 1985 in Jamba, Angola. His membership ended on a sour note, however, when the group's millionaire founder, Lewis Lehrman, a former New York gubernatorial candidate, concluded that Abramoff had spent his money

"Sadly, Dean appears to be off the hook when it comes to treason because he has not sworn allegiance to America."

If the above statement means because he has not served in the military, than I guess it will apply as well to Cheney if, or when, they find that he and Halliburton provided assistance to Iran in the development of it's nuclear program.

I wonder what Gunny Bob's take on that situation will be. And I wonder further why he was brought into the thread at all.

So, instead of congressional ethics committees doing their jobs, Republicans have settled on, "Some Democrats are so sleazy, they get involved with the likes of us." (courtesy of conservative columnist, David Brooks).

We'll hear Reid's name a lot, as he's high profile. But besides sitting on the Bureau of Indian Affairs, he also represents Nevada and its casino operations. Much of the money channeled through Abramoff's various clients and fronts pertained to Indian affairs. No surprise that a congressman of Reid's stature and background would receive lobbyist money. Which isn't to say nothing illegal happened; that's for investigators to decide. It's entirely possible that bribery of some sort can be shown to have occurred. But to simply point at Reid and say, "He took money from a lobbyist!!!!" isn't saying much -- lobbying itself isn't illegal, and presumably not every act of Abramoff's was illegal either.

If only a blow job was involved; I'm sure the ethics committees would swing into full action.

I wonder what Gunny Bob's take on that situation will be. And I wonder further why he was brought into the thread at all.
Because otherwise, Osg has nothing to say outside his sigs.

So he is more involved with the Republicans.. but that does not excuse the fact that he is paying off BOTH fucking sides. As I have said before, I am not defending anyone, but when it is only being reported one way, it clearly shows an agenda by the media to once again make the news, and not report it. Just look at some of these headlines, the read the article.

http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/01/05/ap2428622.html
(One tiny fucking line about hillary)

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1472940


The plea came a day after Abramoff entered guilty pleas to three other federal charges as part of an agreement with prosecutors requiring him to cooperate in a wide-ranging corruption probe that could involve up to 20 members of Congress and aides, including former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas.

President Bush joined several lawmakers, including DeLay and House Speaker Dennis Hastert, in announcing plans to donate Abramoff's campaign contributions to charity. Bush's re-election campaign is giving up $6,000 in campaign contributions connected to Abramoff.



No where do I see Democrats even listed.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/01/05/bush_delay_give_back_abramoff_funds/

The headlines are what sells stories. Why mention Delay and not Reid? I did find this interesting though



The Senate minority leader, Harry Reid, who wrote a similar letter to Norton, said through his spokesman yesterday that he would not return the $30,500 that he received from Abramoff's clients. Reid's spokesman, Jim Manley, said the Democrat did nothing wrong, and sought to keep the focus on the GOP, saying, ''This is a Republican scandal."



My whole point is that 9 out of 10 articles accuse the Republicans right in the title. I have seen a few (very few) that mention Democrats, but not many.

Thor posted:



But to simply point at Reid and say, "He took money from a lobbyist!!!!" isn't saying much -- lobbying itself isn't illegal, and presumably not every act of Abramoff's was illegal either.




I agree, but it still boils down to the media saying that this is a Huge scandel and Delay and Bush need to be brought down, and not really probing a majority of the democrats that recieve the same donations. Report the news as it is... not as you want it to be....

I wonder what Gunny Bob's take on that situation will be. And I wonder further why he was brought into the thread at all.


Beyond Osg's sig I brought him into this as I was curious to know what Marine would make accusations such as treason against a Marine with a record such as John Murtha. I had thought perhaps that Gunny Bob, whom I had never heard of, was in possesion of such an exemplery record of service in the Marine Corp that the treason comment perhaps held some validity.

Sadly to say after viewing the service record of Gunny Bob I now realize that his service record was as basic as one could have as an E-7. Nothing outstanding, nothing exemplary, nothing spectacular just very basic.

You are right Gunny should have never been brought up into this as it does not pertain to Rovers delusions Marxist Socialism but just to post a last thought on his so very basic career.


Gunny Bob's Marine Corps Career: Billets, Collateral Duties, Military Occupational Specialities (MOSs) and Schools

Many listeners ask about Gunny's Marine Corps career. Here is a list of the billets (B) he filled, his collateral duties (CD), his MOSs and courses he graduated from while on active duty for 20 years.

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/recon203.jpghttp://www.850koa.com/timages/page/reconduobellows.jpg



Billets & Collateral Duties

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/2ndbn4thmar.gif81mm mortar crew assistant gunner and gunner (B)

81mm mortar platoon ammunition NCO (B)

81mm mortar platoon forward observer (B)

Reconnaissance team assistant team leader (B) and team leader (B)

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/2ndmardiv.jpgReconnaissance company training NCO (B)

Recruiter and recruiting sub-station Staff NCOIC (B)

Instructor, Water Safety & Survival Instructor Course (B)

Instructor, Water Survival Branch (B)

Survival-Evasion-Resistance-Escape (SERE) Course Instructor (B)

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/3rdbn3rdmar.gifStaff NCOIC of Field Force, SERE Brunswick (CD)

Assistant Staff NCOIC of Training Branch, SERE Brunswick (CD)

Staff NCOIC of Tropical Environment Survival Training (TEST) Course, SERE Brunswick Mobile Training Team on Antigua, West Indies (CD)

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/2ndreconRACcastusmcphoto.gifPrimary Environment Instructor, Sea and Seacoast Branch, TEST Course (CD)

Staff NCOIC Advanced Evasion Course, SERE Brunswick (CD)

Advanced SERE Course Instructor, SERE Brusnwick (CD)

Infantry Weapons Platoon Sergeant (B)

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/3rdmarbgd.gifInfantry Company Gunnery Sergeant (B)

Staff Non-Commissioned Officers Academy (SNCOA) Advanced Course Instructor and Squad Advisor (B)

Chief Warfighting Instructor, SNCOA Advanced Course (CD)






Military Occupational Specialties

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/tank.jpghttp://www.850koa.com/timages/page/3rdrecon.gifPrimary MOSs

0321 Reconnaissance Man

0341 Mortar Crewman

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/3rdmarines.jpg0369 Infantry Unit Leader


Secondary and Additional MOSs

8654 Reconnaissance Man, parachute and SCUBA qualified

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/8thmarines.jpg8563 Water Safety & Survival Instructor

8411 Recruiter

9505 SERE Instructor





Schools/Courses

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/24thmeu.jpgMortar Crewman Course

Amphibious Reconnaissance Course

Navy SCUBA Course

Airborne Course

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/dualcool.jpgSubmarine Escape Trunk Operator Course

Dynamics of International Terrorism Course

Revolutionary Warfare Course

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/fmfpac.gifSurvival-Evasion-Resistance-Escape (SERE) Course

SERE Instructor Course

Infantry Operations Course

Prisoner Escort Course

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/IImef.jpgClassified Material Custodian Course

NCO Course

Staff NCO Career Course

Staff NCO Advanced Course

Formal School Instructor Course (Instructional Systems Development)

http://www.850koa.com/timages/page/hueyrappelusmcphoto.gifhttp://www.850koa.com/timages/page/reconteam53rotorwashdodphoto.gif














Now, Rover you may continue this regualarly schedualed A-ro BushHitler fest.

Thor posted:



I agree, but it still boils down to the media saying that this is a Huge scandel and Delay and Bush need to be brought down, and not really probing a majority of the democrats that recieve the same donations. Report the news as it is... not as you want it to be....


There were 12 republicans who received direct contributions from Abramoff. There were no democrats that received direct contributions from him.

There were 19 republicans who either received direct contributions or contributions from Indian tribes.

There were 6 Democrats that received contributions from Indian tribes.

The total dollars contributed to Republicans was $806,310

The total dollars contributed to Democrats was $204,480


Of course those numbers most certainly don't reflect gifts, trips, dinners, vacations, sporting event tickets etc...

-----------



Now to Osg's post: If you even had one fucking iota of experience as a Marine you would soon realize that the service record of Gunny Bob is just average...not ONE goddamn outstanding thing about it. BASIC son...very basic.

LOL. Anyone who is career military will see allot of different duties and stations and MOS's get reclassed and whatnot what specifically is this "outstanding" military record supposed to show? That he's an average career'er? mmmmkay.

Because otherwise, Osg has nothing to say outside his sigs. Actually not true Thror.. It's just that it's absolutly useless to try and change peoples minds over the internet. You all think I am an absolute sheep for believeing in Bush and his administration. And, in the same respect, you are all just as much a "sheeple" for the propaganda you choose to follow so I have resigned to the occasional inflamitory post to get people riled up. Besides I can't just let Akipt and the other conservatives on the board go it alone. Oh, and for everyones knowledge 850 KOA is a 50k watt am station in Colorado that reaches 38 states at night and like 8 during the day. Now lets get this back on topic shall we?

Ignorance doesn't rile me up, it does make me chuckle though :D

Lol...

You all think I am an absolute sheep for believeing in Bush and his administration.


Besides I can't just let Akipt and the other conservatives on the board go it alone.

Those 2 statements contradict each other.

How would you feel if you were actually politically conservative and you understood that not only is Bush not a conservative, he's become a complete embarrassment?

It was only a damn decade ago that "conservative" meant smaller government, less spending, and no infringement on the rights to privacy. It's to the point that you can't tell people you're conservative or Republican in conversation anymore, because they assume that means you support Bush and people like DeLay, which is always good for a big laugh.

I just don't get it anymore. Do people think Bush is conservative because he talks about tax cuts all the time?

Besides I can't just let Akipt and the other conservatives on the board go it alone.

Mirdorr is correct about the contradiction, but this statement alone is a joke. For all I disagree with akipt, Furtivus, and -- in general -- other conservatives (or those defending what is now called conservatism), they at least present -- most of the time -- reasoned arguments and defenses of their points. Furtivus brings in knowledge of caselaw, and akipt at least explains himself around the usual barbs (which we all throw).

But you're just a mannequin, bearing whatever message has been pasted on to you. And rarely do your posts exceed a sentence or two except when you respond to someone pointing this out.

Why didwe not hear more about the Clinton Lincoln bedroom project? Didn't he sell sleep overs in the lincoln bedroom for donations? Why was that not all over the media?

Rover,


Look at other contributions also.

the Republican National Party received 1.04 million
the Democratic National Party received $758, 980.00

For being just a republican scandel, only recieving 25% less funding is pretty amazing. It should read 1.8 million to Zero... but hey.. the GOP recieved more.. so Democrats are innocent.

You need to also look at positions. 8 of the people on the list are from Appropriation Committees or subs that include both Republican and Democratic individuals.

One thing I will say I have noticed about this.. at least the Republicans are donating the money they received from Abramoff to charity. How about Reid, Murray, Levin, Pat Kennedy? For having the gull to call the money the GOP received dirty.. they seem not to have any problems keeping it. Oh and before I hear the "only republicans received direct handout from abrahoff, and NO democrate did" save it. As I said before, you cannot sit there and tell me that they did not know the Abramoff was the force behind it. Politicians know where the money comes from.. especially when they are LARGE amounts and result in letters and votes being required for repayment.

As I said before, you cannot sit there and tell me that they did not know the Abramoff was the force behind it.

Actually, given the array of front companies, false charities and such in the Abramoff arsenal, I can see how someone not in the loop could be ignorant of the origin of funds. For example, part of the Abramoff scandal involves donations from religious "whackos" (the term used by Abramoff partner and former DeLay aid Michael Scanlon) for anti-gambling measures that helped fund pro-gambling lobbying on behalf of Indian tribes (who already were paying millions).

It's easy to sketch down numbers in bulk, but Abramoff had his finger in many pies across the country and territories. Also, it's not just about money qua money. Like I said, lobbying is legal. For better or for worse, money does get tossed around. Not every dime Abramoff spent was spent contra the law. The legal problems begin when a donation of $300,000 to a charity was never received by said charity, but instead went to a front group that served as a gateway to DeLay. Paying for vacation trips, skyboxes, parties and other perks also strains legality. When a legislator such as Burns of Montana votes Aye on a proposal, then votes against said proposal after receiving a donation, the door opens to charges of bribery.

It's not the money, it's the illegal money.

And the reason it pays to look at Abramoff's own donations (http://www.newsmeat.com/washington_political_donations/Jack_Abramoff.php) is simply because it points to the most likely recipients of illegal perks. Who is Abramoff most likely to help under the table?

So, Harry Reid, Levin, Stabenow, and the other democrats had Zero idea that Abramoff was not the main funnel of indian casino pact money? If that is true.. then ya,, I cannot wait until they are back in power.. oh boy..


Btw.. love how the link only showed Republican donations.. nice spinning.
And who do I think that he really helped under the table? WHOEVER THE HELL WOULD GET WHAT HE WANTED DONE!!!>. Like Pat Kennedy, Delay or whoever. As I have argued all along.. BOTH sides are guilty!!!

So, Harry Reid, Levin, Stabenow, and the other democrats had Zero idea that Abramoff was not the main funnel of indian casino pact money? If that is true.. then ya,, I cannot wait until they are back in power.. oh boy..
I don't know what they knew. It's simply plausible that they didn't know Abramoff was behind some/much/most/all of the donations they received from his various clients/fronts. Those checks didn't have Abramoff's name on them. They originate from groups that were clients of his.
Btw.. love how the link only showed Republican donations.. nice spinning.
Uh, no spin. Abramoff himself didn't donate to Democrats.

Ok.

Then it is simply plausible that nobody knew the money they were getting was from a Crooked individual.. So case closed.. Next topic to bring down the President please...

Riiiight...

You do understand that there is a difference between money donated to a campaign from one of hundreds of companies/groups/charities and a vacation or tickets to a game or a few hundred grand tossed into a political slush fund disguised as a charity organized personally by Abramoff, right?

Riiiight...

Guys. It's already accepted fact that DeLay has laundered money. Why the discussion? Everyone knows he did it. They're simply trying to make the case airtight, since Delay will have an army of lawyers.

If others go down, hey, good times.

Besides I can't just let Akipt and the other conservatives on the board go it alone.

The people you're defending are not conservatives, and barely even pretend to be anymore, which is why the conservatives on the board aren't going it alone, we have all the liberal bleedingheart assholes on our side -- and if that isn't a scary wake-up call about the state of the Republican party, I don't know what is. Bush is about as conservative as Stalin, he (or rather his puppeteers) are neoliberal quasi-Friedman fiscally and socially backwards with a stiff shot of nepotism, incompetence and fear-mongering.

It's ok if the Republican Booster crew here doesn't understand that, though, since Bush honestly doesn't want you to and toeing the party line involves covering your ears too. The actual real policy differences between the Republicans and Democrats haven't been discussed in years, and that's the big idea behind huge handwaving dances over shit like gay marriage. As long as you're mad over stuff that just doesn't fucking matter, you're too busy to notice what's actually going on in those defense spending bills with riders about free trade agreements and creating domestic authority for the NSA.


Btw.. love how the link only showed Republican donations.. nice spinning.

Maybe because that's the only ones that have been potentially illegal?

Face it. A REPUBLICAN lobbyist is involved in illegal money deals with REPUBLICANS who aggressively courted lobbyist organizations to keep their money and their employees REPUBLICAN. That doesn't make Democrats into shining beacons of ethical integrity, but all this stupid shit trying to somehow implicate them as to spread the guilt around is asinine and pathetic.

Why didwe not hear more about the Clinton Lincoln bedroom project? Didn't he sell sleep overs in the lincoln bedroom for donations? Why was that not all over the media?It was all over the media. Like most news, it blew over in favor of a new flavor of the week.

Oh I do understand the difference. for example..Pelosi getting her Flights paid for by Special interests...or better yet... how about the other 199 politicians. If you are going to make a point of this, then I can damn well bet that EVERY politician will be guilty.

But you are right.. I am sure Reid and crew had no idea that money was coming from the leading Republican lobbyiest...

Malse,


Care to explain how what you posted is considered illegal? Hell, so giving money to a congressman so he uses his influence to get what you want done is illegal? Hmmm.... isn't that called lobbying?? For example. Some Lobbyist (lets use Abramoff) represents a whole bunch of Indian tribes that make Millions off Gambling. Abramoff & Associates sends a check for $35,000 to some Political official (lets say Reid), for campaign funds. Even though Reid never met face to face with the CEO of the company, and has no idea that Abramoff is the CEO, he still writes a letter and helps block the building of new casino's that would have been against the wishes of said Indian tribe. Is this not using political influence to help out someone who did you a favor???

It still boils down to whether Abramoff hand delivered the checks or not, everyone involved (especially those that pushed some type of influence his way) knew that Jack Abramoff was involved. Someone give me $35,000 for my campaign fund, I would want to know a few things:

1) Why are they donating?
2) Who are they?
3) Is it legal?
plus many others.

As long as you're mad over stuff that just doesn't fucking matter, you're too busy to notice what's actually going on in those defense spending bills with riders about free trade agreements and creating domestic authority for the NSA.

I quote Malse from a few posts ago...

Then I state on my own!!

Yup cuz rider bills like that are NEW!!!!

Fandros

Edited due to my inability to use the quote feature today....heh

Fandors, what are you going on about? Your posting today is as coherent as Tourette's sufferer having a grand mal seizure.

I cut and pasted something from Malse's post rather than use the quote feature. Really looks odd now.

Fandros

ROFL..


I thought maybe you accidently posted a reply here that was meant for another thread. It would not be hard to do with 5 different threads going...

Okay =)

Ok, total rumor here, but it's hilarious. Plus, she's cute.

How did this Abramoff thing start, you ask?

http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2006/01/idiots-in-action.html

I think Abramoff was already suspect in dealings independent of all this, but his flipping (to testify in exchange for a plea deal) was preceded by Scanlon flipping on him, which may have been "encouraged" after Ms. Miller sought revenge. Makes for a fun read, anyway.

This might be interesting. Duke Cunningham wore a wire (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1146700,00.html).

Why didwe not hear more about the Clinton Lincoln bedroom project? Didn't he sell sleep overs in the lincoln bedroom for donations? Why was that not all over the media?

You must have been asleep at the wheel back then, because it was covered and it stopped as a result of the coverage.

this Come into play?

http://tinypic.com/k04kz9.gif

Can you imagine the fun during the next Democrat presidency when it's impossible to say anything about him without the constant remarks about W Bush? We can always hope W will find a pretty lobbyist in 2007 ...

Odd little tidbit related to K Street Project (http://www.kstreetproject.com/index.php?content=archives). Scroll down to "Labor Extends a Conservative Hand."
Labor Extends a Conservative Hand
January 09 2006 5:52 PM
Lynn Gibson, the former Director of the Young Leaders Program at The Heritage Foundation, is now the new Special Assistant for Conservative Outreach at the Department of Labor.No political giving could be determined for Gibson.
There's a Special Assistant for Conservative Outreach at DoL? Is there a Special Assistant for Liberal Outreach, too? Libertarian? What does such a person do, and why are taxpayers paying for it?