Muslim outrage, huh? OK ? let?s do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:


* Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.


* Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a
burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.


* Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school
in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.


* Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim
outrage.


* Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels
in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.


* A Muslim attacks a missionary children?s school in India. Kills six. No Muslim
outrage.


* Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia.
Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.


* Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer
Olympics. No Muslim outrage.


* Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel.
No Muslim outrage.


* Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and
busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.


* Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim
outrage.

* Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.


* Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage


* Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the
125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.


* Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes,
then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.


* Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed.
Muslims are outraged


Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses.
Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims ..
no Muslim outrage ? But publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb
in his turban and all hell breaks loose.

Hey now, it's obviously a religion of peace!! Only the fringe extremists are involved...eerrrr wait it's not so much fringe now is it, it's becoming the main body. So now does it follow that the fringe extemists are the peaceful ones?

Sadly we as nonMuslims are slow to catch on atm.

Fandros

Crusades II

Why label the peaceful because of the atrocities of another who has a similar background?

Kinda like calling me an asshole because I'm a white American. I'm not an asshole because I'm a white American, I'm just an asshole no matter what package the personality is wrapped in. ;)

Fandros, "peaceful" is a relative term (well, with regard to religion anyways ;)). The Qur'an, when interpreted a certain way, certainly seems to contain incendiary devices, but so does the Bible. Given that Islam has over 900 million subscribers (a most conservative estimate; 1.5 billion is the largest I've heard), if the majority were violent, we'd be in a lot more trouble than we are now.

Yeah, where are we going to get enough ammo =\

I'm not an asshole because I'm a white American

Well, the thing is, radical Muslims would disagree with this.

Personally I think their whole culture has their heads rammed waaay up their ass. They seem to look for excuses to incite themselves to violence over trivial things. People ridicule and make fun of others all the time and they whine when its their turn.

One thing that the OP didn't mention was the lack of muslim outrage towards 911.

Name one thing that their culture has contributed to the world lately other than senseless violence.

Mohammed Ali!

Mohammed Ali!

Doh, Cassius Clay had already established himself as the top fighter before converting to Islam.


And, the jury is still out on whether he converted simply to avoid military service and the potential of being sent to Viet Nam.

relax it was a joke!!

There's a small sect of muslims that are just flippin stupid when it comes to the whole thing, but lets be careful not to label the entire religion. Zealot Christians have murdered far more people since the creation of their religion in the name of God than the Muslim community has to date I'm afraid :(

It remains sickly amusing that people are willing to denigrate Islam as the "religion of extremist violence" while ignoring the "terrorist" actions of Christian extremists in the US, South America, Ireland, and the Pacific Rim, or the terrorist actions of Aum Shinrikyo (sp?) in Japan, or the dozens of other sects with potentially volatile rhetoric and charlatans willing to abuse it.

The obvious problem is religion itself, and we should create a secular authority to declare righteous war against it.

Where was the US outrage when we deposed governments and commited murders all over South America and the Middle East? Absent or unheard. Where was the British outrage when they invaded Egypt over the Suez canal? Absent or unheard. Where was the outrage in France over their failing empire of violence in Southeast Asia? Absent or unheard. Backwater towl heads have no monopoly on myopia and ends-justify-the-means thinking, and ironically our own moron element is dead set on erasing the thin line that allows us to say "There but for the grace of god go we."

Personally I think their whole culture has their heads rammed waaay up their ass. They seem to look for excuses to incite themselves to violence over trivial things.

Keep in mind that depictions of Mohammed are not trivial to the Muslim faith. If you go back far enough in time and place (e.g., 8th century Byzantium), Christianity had a similar iconoclasm following the commandment against graven images. This ban is felt more strongly in Islam, and the depictions essentially blaspheme their prophet. Which bothers me not at all, but kindles their anger (opportunistic religious leaders only fan the flames).

A couple 9/11 anniversaries ago I saw a website sponsored by some radical Islamic bunch "mourning the dead." However, the dead they referred to weren't those who perished in the Pentagon and WTC but Muslims who had perished due to this or that war or action by some government or other. The point is, anyone can make lists of atrocities, wrongs left unpunished, and cast aspersions on the supposed apathy of others. The history of our world makes such tirades easy to come by and useful to those who want to justify their own outrage, to fan their own flames, to justify apathy in the face of retaliation.

People seek validation for their thoughts, feelings and behaviors; and they're willing to go to considerable lengths to do so (especially, it seems, when following more atavistic urgings). Muslims justify their outrage by pointing at the West; the West justifies theirs by pointing back; round and round we go. Remember, all cultures have a history of violence. Our past is their present.

I guess after the "you can make a poll say anything you want" saying, it's now suitable for lists. ;)

atavism
The recurrence, or a tendency to a recurrence, of the original type of a species in the progeny of its varieties; resemblance to remote rather than to near ancestors; reversion to the original form.

Thanks...make me have to look shit up.

Anyway, very well put, Thormir. We can only hope that their future becomes our present. Or maybe what we soon become, anyway. Or what I hope we become. That is, a more tolerant nation. I hope we are headed in the right direction. Who knows...

At any rate, running down to the local Arab run mini-mart and cappin' Ali isn't gonna solve the terrorist problem. The more I look at what's happened and continues to happen, I just shake my head and wonder. I couldn't hope to begin to unravel the mess that is West vs. Middle East.

I think I'll go find a hole in my backyard and insert my head. I'm completely dumbstruck.

Malse,


Trying to compare this to past government acts is comparing apples to oranges. Now, if this discussion was about how we go into Somalia to help the local people from being wiped out, but ignore the ethnic clensing in Africa, then that would be a good analogy. But this is about a religion that puts out death contracts on people who right books or direct movies that question the beliefs of that religion, but then turn around and say that it is the religon of peace.

When is the last time that a Christian randomly killed a Muslim priest because of a cartoon? Or strapped a bomb on thier back and killed children? Stoned someone to death because they showed thier face in public? Ya, Christianity has had its dark days, but there is also a tolerance that allows people who are of different faith to co-exist. You have the right to be athiest, or even a druid, or whatever you want to be... try that in Afganistan, or Iraq before we were there. Ask the Kurds how easy it is to be Christian surrounded by Muslims.. I know I have.

Well how come all the muslims in America are not our running around with their heads cut off trying to burn buildings over cartoons...oh unless they are burning churches in the south?

The American Muslims aren't nearly the appreciable percentages of our populace that they are elsewhere in the world. For one we don't allow the relgious domination of their followers that is seen in many other areas. That really detracts from the power thier religious leaders have to invoke said riots.

Fandros

When is the last time that a Christian randomly killed a Muslim priest because of a cartoon? Or strapped a bomb on thier back and killed children? Stoned someone to death because they showed thier face in public? Ya, Christianity has had its dark days, but there is also a tolerance that allows people who are of different faith to co-exist.
Eric Rudolph springs to mind. Obviously he's in the minority, but his actions were condoned by many.
Well how come all the muslims in America are not our running around with their heads cut off trying to burn buildings over cartoons...oh unless they are burning churches in the south?
A significant source of Muslim outrage in other parts of the world is simple jealousy of the West. "Why," the reasoning goes, "should those countries be so wealthy and advanced and powerful and ours be poor, primitive and weak when we are God's true followers?" However, most Muslims in the US enjoy the benefits and (importantly) acculturation of living in this country. Acculturation is particularly important; recent events in Britain and France can be traced, in part, to the alienation many Muslims feel living in those countries. Also, Muslims in the US simply have more to lose by lawless actions than they would in Middle Eastern lands.

If I have time I might look for online papers in the Dearborn, MI area, which includes a heavy Muslim population. That there haven't been riots in such areas (at least that I've heard) is telling.

Trying to compare this to past government acts is comparing apples to oranges.

All my examples were of things in the last 50 years. The last time a "Christan blew up a bunch of children" covers a number of things including Eric Rudolph and the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. "stoned to death for showing their face in public" -- try about 25 homosexual lynchings in the last decade in various Bible Belt states .. those are just the ones known to have been so motivated. You might also ask the Branch Dividians what they think of religious tolerance, except most of them were killed by the BATF.

There is no magic distinction you can make that separates people like you and me from a numinous badness in the world, like the Pakistani that murdered his own daughters because they *might* commit adultery. Change a few words and that happened in Britain, too.

Thor covered the basics behind why there aren't riots in the US. The cartoon is a triviality, iconoclasms like that are common enough. I suspect the majority of violent towel heads don't even know what they are truly upset about, but this has made an easy outlet to vent on their economic problems, irrelevance in world politics, etc.

The link didn't work, but I read from one site that:
Iran has decided to rename Danish pastries "Mohammedan" pastry - a new twist in the crisis which has triggered protest by Muslims throughout the world against cartoons of Mohammed first published in Denmark.recalling the "Freedom Fries" retardation of a couple years ago. I wonder if referring to Mohammedan pastries as being "da bomb" would result in a fatwa against you a la Salmon Rushdie.

In other news, the Russians are taking a stand (http://upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060207-072431-9805r) for freedom of the press:
A Moscow museum has announced it will exhibit the entire series of cartoons of Mohammed that have caused riots throughout the Islamic world.

Yury Samodurov, director of the Sakharov Museum and Public Center, said on Russian television that the center was ready to organize a public exhibition of the cartoons satirizing the founder of Islam that originally were published in a Danish newspaper, Pravda.ru reported Monday.

"We must show the whole world that Russia goes along with Europe, that the freedom of expression is much more important for us than the dogmas of religious fanatics," Samodurov said. I don't know that the museum and the government interface in viewpoint, but this is interesting in light of Russia's agreement to review Iran's nuclear research with the UN Security Council.

Calling McVeigh, Eric Rudolph and any other domestic terrorist in America a Christian is pretty fucking baseless.

Christianity had some awful things done its name in the past, but these guys were more political and racist/homophobic than anything else... and a quick glance at the facts would dispel you of that notion.

The underlying problem of Islam is that there's no leading clerics or religious leaders calling "Bullshit!" when they start spewing their hate. UNLIKE Christianity today. What happens when Pat RobertsON goes diahrea at the mouth? I and practically everyone else on this board scoff at his stupidity. Islam is lacking those checks presently. That's the problem.

MSNBC News Services
Updated: 9:29 a.m. ET Feb. 8, 2006


KABUL, Afghanistan - Police shot four protesters to death Wednesday to stop hundreds from marching on a southern U.S. military base, as Islamic organizations called for an end to deadly rioting across the Muslim world over drawings of the Prophet Muhammad.

Danish newspaper cartoons = United States as target of insurrection?

Go figure....


“Islam says it’s all right to demonstrate but not to resort to violence. This must stop,” said senior cleric Mohammed Usman, a member of the Ulama Council — Afghanistan's top Islamic organization. “We condemn the cartoons but this does not justify violence. These rioters are defaming the name of Islam.”

As with most people/religions I have been fortunate enough to encounter, there are those who see violence as an unacceptable way of getting the message across.

As has been demonstrated in the recent past, it appears that a very small handful of Islamic "holy men" are behind the uproar. It seems to me that they have missed the mark somewhere along the way. Most "Christian" type religions abhor violence and actively seek peaceful ways to resolve conflict.

Are there those who take matters into their own hands and commit violent acts? Certainly, but I have not yet seen Pat Robertson (even with all his flaws and inappropriate comments) on national television advocating that his followers arm themselves and attack those who oppose his point of view.
I don't agree with Robertson, but he seems to be the mouthpiece of a lot of Christian believers, or at least is perceived to be. I was simply using him as an example.

Back to the point... I have nothing against those who follow any religion, but I do have issues with so-called "holy men" calling for acts of violence from the general populace.

Calling McVeigh, Eric Rudolph and any other domestic terrorist in America a Christian is pretty fucking baseless.

Christianity had some awful things done its name in the past, but these guys were more political and racist/homophobic than anything else... and a quick glance at the facts would dispel you of that notion.

The underlying problem of Islam is that there's no leading clerics or religious leaders calling "Bullshit!" when they start spewing their hate. UNLIKE Christianity today. What happens when Pat Roberts goes diahrea at the mouth? I and practically everyone else on this board scoff at his stupidity. Islam is lacking those checks presently. That's the problem.


Heres an FYI for you...in Rudolphs own words:


In the summer of 1996, the world converged upon Atlanta for the Olympic Games. Under the protection and auspices of the regime in Washington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington%2C_D.C.) millions of people came to celebrate the ideals of global socialism. Multinational corporations spent billions of dollars, and Washington organized an army of security to protect these best of all games. Even though the conception and purpose of the so-called Olympic movement is to promote the values of global socialism, as perfectly expressed in the song "Imagine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagine_%28song%29)" by John Lennon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lennon), which was the theme of the 1996 Games even though the purpose of the Olympics is to promote these despicable ideals, the purpose of the attack on 27 July (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_27) was to confound, anger and embarrass the Washington government in the eyes of the world for its abominable sanctioning of abortion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion) on demand. The plan was to force the cancellation of the Games, or at least create a state of insecurity to empty the streets around the venues and thereby eat into the vast amounts of money invested.
Also please note:

The Army of God (AOG) is a name that has been and is used by multiple groups. Ignoring possible uses for historical military crusades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades), the term was first coined when Don Benny Anderson (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Don_Benny_Anderson&action=edit) kidnapped an abortion doctor and his wife, promising to release them if abortion would be outlawed in the United States.

AOG does not claim to be an actual organization, but rather, a like-minded group of Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) terrorists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorists) who have commited violent acts against abortion doctors and abortion clinics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_clinic). It is guessed to be a nebulous Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) terrorist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist) group that is far right-wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing) and advocates violence. They have been known to attack the abortion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion) providers and abortion clinic staff, as well as praising the beheadings of homosexuals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuals) in Saudi Arabia.

AOG is associated with several notable individuals:

Eric Rudolph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph)
Clayton Waagner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayton_Waagner)
Rev. Michael Bray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bray), is considered the "chaplain of the Army of God".
Others loosely affiliated with, or in some support of, the "AOG" include:

Neal Horsley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Horsley) occasional spokeman for AOG
John Brockhoeft (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Brockhoeft&action=edit)
Father David Trosch (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Father_David_Trosch&action=edit)
Dan Holman (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dan_Holman&action=edit)
Bob Lokey (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bob_Lokey&action=edit)
Chuck Spingola (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chuck_Spingola&action=edit)
Drew Heiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drew_Heiss&action=edit)
Paul deParrie (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paul_deParrie&action=edit)

Heres another great site extolling the virtues of the modern Americans version of Mullahs (http://www.christiangallery.com/)

Calling McVeigh, Eric Rudolph and any other domestic terrorist in America a Christian is pretty fucking baseless.

Christianity had some awful things done its name in the past, but these guys were more political and racist/homophobic than anything else... and a quick glance at the facts would dispel you of that notion.

To rephrase what you just said ..


People that similiar to me obviously can't be as bad.



The underlying problem of Islam is that there's no leading clerics or religious leaders calling "Bullshit!" when they start spewing their hate. UNLIKE Christianity today. What happens when Pat Roberts goes diahrea at the mouth? I and practically everyone else on this board scoff at his stupidity. Islam is lacking those checks presently. That's the problem.

So you're saying the people on this board are religious leaders? Because it sounds to me like the four hundred someodd different Christian sects don't have any leading religious leaders (who work for the Department of Redundancy, it would seem), and in fact most of them exist as unique groups specifically because they rejected the "leadership" of other Christian authorities.

After nearly 30 years of hate mongering, intolerance and outright tastelessness, Pat Robertson is still on TV.

The plan was to force the cancellation of the Games, or at least create a state of insecurity to empty the streets around the venues and thereby eat into the vast amounts of money invested.

Hmm, no mention of killing the infidels and getting an express ticket into heaven. Looks political to me.

Thanks for proving my point Rover.

Regardless Rover, we as a nation and religion have never set out to kill/maim and destroy over a damn cartoon.

That's the point here, and it's important one as well. This type of behavior will only continue to inflame if we marginalize it's importance.

Fandros

So you're saying the people on this board are religious leaders? Because it sounds to me like the four hundred someodd different Christian sects don't have any leading religious leaders (who work for the Department of Redundancy, it would seem), and in fact most of them exist as unique groups specifically because they rejected the "leadership" of other Christian authorities. The overwhelming majority of
Christians in this country and those around the world deplore violence as a means for political and/or religious gain. And they speak out daily against it.

After nearly 30 years of hate mongering, intolerance and outright tastelessness, Pat Robertson is still on TV. And he's routinely scoffed at and marginalized as well. See Gandaar's reponse...

...I have not yet seen Pat Robertson (even with all his flaws and inappropriate comments) on national television advocating that his followers arm themselves and attack those who oppose his point of view.

Islam needs more of this...
http://www.dose.ca/toronto/news/story.html?s_id=WIgL8KOsLitVk4fDeNRRzdShAceSvkMa%2 B8uzgO3EtgRjY5ffDnUc0Q%3D%3D
However, many Muslims have protested peacefully, with some expressing their anger through a boycott of Danish goods.

Several top Muslim clerics, including those in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, have condemned the attacks.

Iraq's top Shi'ite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, criticized Islamic militant groups for distorting and manipulating the faith.

..at the TOP of the articles though.

Al-Jazeera is regularly maligned, but their byline (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B9F71476-D6A9-409E-8C01-FB0139746391.htm) (Radicals 'exploiting cartoon backlash') suggests the editors take a reasonable view to all this. The article details Indonesia's response, warning against violent protests while still opposing the cartoons in question.

Another Danish Cartoon
http://www.netmediazone.net/virgins.jpg


I am now on the muslim shitlist for posting this :(

..at the TOP of the articles though.

So, it isn't really Islam, but in fact the liberal media that is to blame.....

Fil

I suspect the majority of violent towel heads don't even know what they are truly upset about, but this has made an easy outlet to vent on their economic problems, irrelevance in world politics, etc.

The Saudi's, mindful of the outpouring of anger following the last pilgrimage and it's associated death toll, were careful to deflect the anger this year from the deaths of pilgrims to a more easily focused enemy....the blasphemous attacks on their Prophet.

I get pissed off because I work all day and come home to see thousands of men running around (in the news) getting bent about a cartoon...man if only I could run around all day with my brothers and friends pissing and moaning about all the shit I dislike.

http://www.mohammeddance.com/

Wonder how long till he gets car/suicide/roadside/sheep bombed

I have a fraternity brother who is Iranian. He is a Political Science major at a reputable university, yet on this issue he is sympathetic to this Muslim 'outrage'. People need to pull their heads out of their asses.

I asked him if he thinks their response is proportionate to the offense, and if so, would it be deemed acceptable were the United States to be in the position of Iran. Of course he came back with the cookie cutter "It's a different region with different customs and culture yada yada". I also read somewhere that there were going to be/already are cartoons put out in response to this attacking people of Jewish descent via the Holocaust. While most level-headed individuals would clearly see the blatant differences between making parody of a diety and degrading the loss of millions of fellow human beings, nationalism and religious pride of course took precendence in this matter and he could never admit that there was a difference.

This region is such a clusterfuck. We need to put heavy spending towards alternative energy sources and get the mother fuck out of the Middle East. And please, can we get a level-headed individual in office who can look at the Israeli situation objectively, as opposed to just following decades of precedent? Growing up of course I was indoctrined with the pro-Israel attitude that is present in our country, but the more I learn about the situation the more I wonder how anyone can really support Israel, much less the full-fledged rimjob America has been giving them for the past century.

Its pretty obvious now that the groups and people who incited the most violent riots were not in any way doing it because they were humiliated, it was all for political purposes. for example the embassy burnings were both orchestrated by the syrian regime or the militant groups directly tied to them, to both try to show lebanon as unstable (to attempt to regain control) and to shift the focus from regime critics to the europeans. I read a piece in a local newspaper where a swedish terror expert claimed that the groups who started the protests in palestine were all part of Fatah's non-religious militant groups, while hamas pretty much stayed calm with some peaceful protests. he also said the "real groups" havent done anything yet, and its just the "kiddy" organizations who are doing it.

which is all pretty sad, really. that they now have an excuse to further tighten their grip on the population. I mean if a "moderate" muslim speaks out right now about the numerous quran commandments the regimes in for example syria are breaking, hes just gonna be imprisoned/tortured/killed/owned/etc.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4697286.stm


- I think there's a few problems here.
The main one is that democratic countries are free - well more so than most - and as such it is a society of open thought and opinion. Newspapers tear just about every topic apart, and if there's a side to riddicule, it'll be riddiculed.
The muslim, dictator/monarchic countries don't understand this, and why should they? They live in a world that existed in the nineteenth century. It's not a wrong place, it's not an evil place, it's just an old place. And why shouldn't it be? We have no right to assert our civilization as the progressive, advanced, RIGHT one. It's just a different one, with different values and ways.

The problem is that if Muslims wish to live in Europe and other democratic places, they will simply have to get used to our openess and freedom.
I say reprint the cartoons, back the Danes, and don't give a damn about the whining protestors.
The Middle Easterners can moan, I don't blame them, but not those easterners who live in the West.

The muslim, dictator/monarchic countries don't understand this, and why should they? They live in a world that existed in the nineteenth century. It's not a wrong place, it's not an evil place, it's just an old place. And why shouldn't it be? We have no right to assert our civilization as the progressive, advanced, RIGHT one. It's just a different one, with different values and ways.
So Afghanistan 2000 was not an evil place, it was just an old and out of date place that was of no concern to us? Iran as it is today is of no concern to us? Nothing to worry about? It's just a nuke in the hands of a Armageddon-wishing Holocaust-denying Look-at-me-I-have-a-halo whackjob.

Move along now, nothing to see.

The muslim, dictator/monarchic countries don't understand this, and why should they? They live in a world that existed in the nineteenth century. It's not a wrong place, it's not an evil place, it's just an old place. And why shouldn't it be? We have no right to assert our civilization as the progressive, advanced, RIGHT one. It's just a different one, with different values and ways.


Do you seriously think like this? I don't even have the words for you. Open your fucking eyes and look at those hardliners. Seriously, do you even read what goes on overthere or do you just look at the pictures and come up with your own conclusions? Your thought pattern is mind boggling.

The U.S. is trying to push our ideals on them? Hardly, we are trying to free a people. We are trying to allow the people to decide what they want. That is why we have brought to them free elections. That is why these people are risking their very lives to vote in said elections. Taliban were killing people that had the voting dye on their fingertips. Yet in the morning of the elections, these people prayed a death prayer, because they knew by voting they might have sealed their fate if caught. They risked their lives for freedom. We risk OUR lives for their freedom. Say what you want, you will anyway. But the troops that believe in this cause, believe in it because we see the appreciation in the eyes of the people, the children. School houses now have working electricity, woman are voting and educating themselves, becoming real people and not just dogs to be butchered at the will of their husbands.

But, they just lived in an old culture....That's why they were building weapons, that is why they "had" aircraft with semi advanced weaponry. That is why they have radar and internet.....I call bullshit on you. So much bullshit that you are swimming in it.

You must just do this to get a rise out of people, if your thinking is really this way you might want to reevaluate the education system in your country. :spade

:devil

Hardly, we are trying to free a people. We are trying to allow the people to decide what they want. That is why we have brought to them free elections.

To be fair, we only allowed them to decide what we wanted them to decide. When people actually decide what they want, as evidenced with the recent Hamas government and the mass recall in Spain a few years ago, the US trots out its Keystone Cops to condemn them .. or clandestinely invade them, if they're in South America.

We had no problem with the Taliban in Afghanistan when they were on our side.

'It's just a nuke in the hands of a Armageddon-wishing Holocaust-denying Look-at-me-I-have-a-halo whackjob.'

- Wait, are you suggesting that a nuke is any less threatening or dangerous in the hands of other countries? Hello, YOU are the only fucking people to have used one. You're the only country running around invading everyone who doesn't step in to the Americana line. Pax Americana? Yeah, seen that one before. Us Brits called it civilizing, so did the Spanish and Romans. Every imperial people have their civilizing reasons. Great Casus Belli that.

"DEMOCRACY OR DIE!!!" "FREEDOM OR WE'LL KEEL J00!!11"

Yes, you uncultured swine, a different civilization and culture doesn't mean a wrong one. Your country is suffocated under a world of Western-consumerism. The Mid East is suffocated under a world of religious-primacy. As far as I'm concerned, you both suck, but I won't play god and decide who's wrong or right.
Sorry mate, seems like you've been sucked in to the Bush "black, white, evil, duuhhh how dude you spell it'z?1" frame of mind.

'We are trying to allow the people to decide what they want. That is why we have brought to them free elections.'

- The arrogance is astounding. You can't force a social-political state of living on a people, certainly not by invading, killing fifty thousand, and then asking them to vote for pro-American parties.
I'm sure if they wanted Saddam back then you'd toss him out of jail and enthrone the bastard again. Slap my arse and call me Betty, I don't think you would.

'School houses now have working electricity, woman are voting and educating themselves, becoming real people and not just dogs to be butchered at the will of their husbands.'

- Sounds like the Afghanistan debacle you "freed", haha. No, no seriously. It does.
Betty.

'That's why they were building weapons'

- Good morning Skippy, this is radio-1954! Where ya been mate? They didn't actually have any of those scary old weapons you folks said they did. Remember? The entire reason for war? The big ole false one. I thought that's why you went in there, not to "free" them, but to disarm them? Guess you did a little "freedom fighting" when the world realised it was all a bit of a waste of time?

'I call bullshit on you. So much bullshit that you are swimming in it.'

- I didn't know you got freaky like that. Where you been all my life?!

'You must just do this to get a rise out of people, if your thinking is really this way you might want to reevaluate the education system in your country. '

- It's called Britain, the place most of the rich in the world send their kids to be educated. It's nice, free of those high-school massacres you guys across the pond are so fond of.

You are correct. You do like the bullshit.

Last I checked Britian was side by side the US in Iraq there mate. Your hands are just as bloody as the rest of us. I would wager that many, many, more people come to the US for an education than your wig wearing stale fucking culture.

I will agree with you though on forcing our opionions on other people/cultures. The whole thing just doesn't sit right with me anymore and it sure as hell would be interesting to see if the people wanted Saddam back in power (if it was an option) and they won...what would happen? Lol nothing is impossible anymore.

Thoughtful post (http://volokh.com/posts/1139425797.shtml) over at Volokh Conspiracy relating feelings about the cartoons by Muslims to feelings about flag burning by those who support a ban on such behavior.

This must be a good topic if it is dragging this many old timers out of the wood work and getting them back to the same old flames.

Excuse me while I get some coffee brewing and make some popcorn......

OK. *cracks knuckles*
On with the show!


All this death and destruction over religion. Sucks. Wars used to be over claims to more territory or resources or political idealogy. Its really horrible though when people decide that wars must be fought over who has the better answer for the question of Life and Death and the Universe and Everything. Everyone is so eager to die for their god. What a bunch of crap. Bunch of mindless zombie sheep in this world. Ranging from our bible thumping president to that Pat "My Brain and Mouth are not Connected" Robertson to the idiots burning down embassies to the Stockholm Syndrome bitch demanding that the US give her captors whatever they want but is still confident she will be released because she is a good Muslim. Might make one hope that all that have died come to find out that the Creator is nothing more but an alien graduate student sweating over the impending F from this failed experiment and is one step away from throwing it in the recycle bin in utter disgust.

'I would wager that many, many, more people come to the US for an education than your wig wearing stale fucking culture.'

- Stale?
Did you just take a jibe at MY culture? Yours centres around Macdonalds and Britney Spears.
Wait, you DON'T have a culture.

'Last I checked Britian was side by side the US in Iraq there mate.'

- Uh, did I say Britain wasn't?

Bloody colonials.

You had said in a previous post:

You're the only country running around invading everyone who doesn't step in to the Americana line. Pax Americana?

Then I responded with:
Last I checked Britian was side by side the US in Iraq there mate.

- Uh, did I say Britain wasn't?

So in other words Britian only attacks countrys that the US feels like invading? Does that make you our bitch now?

Stinking Red Coats.

Pretty much.

We've been dependent on you since WW2. And in terms of foreign policy, we've been your "bitch" since the Suez War.

We're not running around invading everyone, we're just stepping in line with the "pax Americana", mate.

But if we can't vouch to have an independent foreign policy, we sure as hell can make claim to have culture. Which is more than yourself, colonial.

Falkland island much Halo?

As for lack of culture, as much as I hate Hollywood and it's cretins I'd have to safely say it's part and parcel a section of global as well as national culture.

Chatting up a serious subject while daft in the pub isn't a sign of good conversation Halo.

When did they start letting you get away with chatting it up on the net at the pub? Last time I caroused with Brits they'd have thrown your ass through a pyramid of big ole beer and apple jack cans for being a git....;P

Fandros

Halo is right. We should have let the huns have their lebensraum. What concern should we have had whether he speaks English or German? Absolutely none of our business. We're all capitalists afterall, we can do business with anyone.

No American history, no American culture....omfg.

I just don't think you're serious. You can't be.

:devil

Halo,,

American culture isn't McDonalds...thats a business which is owned by an American(s). Saying that this is our culture is the same as if we said "British culture is a bunch of vile punk rockers, they must be...look at Sid Vicious"

We export hamburgers and clowns to you...you export Sid Vicious and the likes to us.

Maybe it is our fault for the world viewing American culture as being McDonalds but hey..get over it.

The culture of America is made up of the cultures of many nations along with some traditions that have started here in this country. I am certain that by some of the posts that are here it would be quite easy to make the assumption that we are made up of a bunch of priveliged right wing chicken hawks...but I assure you...they are quite the minority in the USA, they just bitch alot and get noticed.

I'm sure you have a pretty good grasp of history and are probably just flinging poo to watch the Americans freakout.

Actually.. before you accuse Halo of having a firm grasp of history, allow me to tell him how much he doesnt know.

Look.
Dont try to pull that "America has no history" shit. America shares the same history as England. America IS the end result of 1000 years of European history. The Enlightenment, the Reformation, The Renaissance, the Scientific Revolution. All those roads end here as they reached their fruition in the New World.
Europe is dead.
It died from self inflicted wounds on the battlefields of the Somme and Verdun. It lost all its hope and all its vision. Europes best and brightest died alongside its optimism and belief in Humankind. It lost its will and its backbone to lead and it lost the ability to inspire. All it could do was try to hold on with disasterous results in its colonies.
England officially shed the mantle of leadership when it showed the lack of courage in Chamberlains appeasement of Hitler. Your people showed how beaten down they were, how unable to summon the conviction needed to lead. If it wasnt for relic from an earlier age, and old man who should have been dead long before, whose ideas had made him an outcast until the point that your people realized that they needed the spine of Winston Churchill to just hang on long enough for the New World to come to the rescue.

You are in the ass end of a once glorious empire. You live in the final stages of Colonialism where the once subjected now colonize the homeland. Because your people no longer have enough children to support the economy, waves of immigrants now pour into Europe, strip mining your unclaimed opportunities and sending them back to their homes, never becoming part of society as they do in America, just feasting off the rotting carcass of a once mighty beast. You now try to band yourselves together in this EU like drowning sailors struggling to stay afloat after a shipwreck, but in the end only sinking each other, as the weakest swimmers pull down the strongest.

You say America has no history. I say this to you. Thats all Europe has. History. A half forgotten memory of a time nobody alive ever saw. The future no longer belongs to Europeans. Innovation, leadership, idealism, hope and vision no longer will grow on your barren soil. It belongs to the New World, and to the brown and yellow faces that you once imposed your will on.

Enjoy the show.

nothing to add after that....well said L2

Fandros

no shit that was classic. wonder what his faggot smoking ass will say to that one. :)

disclaimer: faggot is European for cigarrette :)

:devil

'disclaimer: faggot is European for cigarrette'


- It's just these types of shit-fucks I have to deal with on this forum all the time. It's somewhat depressing.
Faggot is English for burning wood, such as you throw on the fire. "A faggot of wood". English is also the language you speak, but I do believe you "folks" in the "hood" use it as a word for homosexuality. Word.

Right, one "faggot" out of the way. The biggest to cum. (hahaha, I said CUM, as in SPERM, HAHAHahroflfoalala). Ahem. Anywho.

'nothing to add after that....well said L2'

- You just added something. Twat.

'before you accuse Halo of having a firm grasp of history, allow me to tell him how much he doesnt know.'

- You made my evening. On with the show!!

'America IS the end result of 1000 years of European history'

- It's actually the result of 100 years of friction-filled colonial control. Juiced up with 300 years of dumping the shittiest of the shittest of Europeans across the ocean. That's where you have something in common with the catholics and criminals of the Australian colonies. You weren't a product of the Englightenment, you're a product of not wanting to pay taxes for your own defence.

'Europe is dead. '

- This is where the comedy begins.

'It died from self inflicted wounds on the battlefields of the Somme and Verdun'

- I forget, did they have higher or lower deathcounts than the American civil war? Didn't you folks bleed away 50,000 in an undeclared war in the Vietnam jungles? Didn't you bleed your flower-generations in the Pacific islands?
I was under the impression that you bled to death on the Korean penninsula.
Stop me when I ramble, please.

'All it could do was try to hold on with disasterous results in its colonies.'

- I dunno, think we handled the pulling out of Empire better than you did the conflicts with Communist Russia. OMG, COMMIE, KEEL HEEEMMM!!1

'England officially shed the mantle of leadership when it showed the lack of courage in Chamberlains appeasement of Hitler. Your people showed how beaten down they were, how unable to summon the conviction needed to lead'

- It's called the United Kingdom. We fought the second world war alone, for a year. We fought off Hitler's invasion, just as we bottled up the Germans in their ports, held the Western Front, drove the Nazi's out of North Africa, supplied the Russians and invaded France and Italy. Lead? Lead?
We were *the* only leading nation for some time.

'If it wasnt for relic from an earlier age, and old man who should have been dead long before, whose ideas had made him an outcast until the point that your people realized that they needed the spine of Winston Churchill to just hang on long enough for the New World to come to the rescue.'

- The New World? Oh right.. you came, late - as always - when the Japs caught you with your panties down.
Who do we blame in your country for not having "the spine" for so many more years than us?

' Because your people no longer have enough children to support the economy, waves of immigrants now pour into Europe'

- We really should name the US "New Mexico".

'never becoming part of society as they do in America'

- How much of the population speak English in America, do remind me.

'You now try to band yourselves together in this EU like drowning sailors struggling to stay afloat after a shipwreck, but in the end only sinking each other, as the weakest swimmers pull down the strongest.'

- About as smooth as the United States birth, right? I'm sure we'll descend in to chaotic, bloodthirsty civil war any moment.

'It belongs to the New World, and to the brown and yellow faces that you once imposed your will on.'

- Well, you're right about one thing. It does belong to Brown and Yellow faces. The New world, like all worlds, becomes the Old. Pax Asiatica, bring it on.
Imposed our will? Who "opened up" Japan? America is an empire. You spread across the continent like a virus, wiped out the natives, and fought the Spanish and Mexicans for control. You continue to impose your will on those who do not accept your values, regardless of original casus belli.

Your story is not remotely different from every other Empire and Power. You rise, you stagnate, you fall.

Pax Americana, indeed.

Enjoy my show.

See ya in two days, Hullo Wales, the backwater of all backwaters.

^^^

I present to you a case study in people ranting about something other than what really upset them.

Sort of back on topic, I read a funny comment today wondering what would have happened if a European cartoonist satirized Jews.

http://volokh.com/files/bok_cartoon.jpg

http://www.0et0.com/images/charlie-hebdo-mahomet.jpg
Translation could be :
Muhammad overwhelmed by integrists.

"It's tough to be loved by assholes..."

While I immensely enjoy this topic, mostly due to Halo's contribution, there is one thing....

Halo is right. We should have let the huns have their lebensraum. What concern should we have had whether he speaks English or German? Absolutely none of our business. We're all capitalists afterall, we can do business with anyone.


WTF do the Huns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns) have to do with "lebensraum" and the German language? The two concepts are at least 15 centuries apart....

If you mean Hungary being allied with Germany in both world wars then that's like saying the Romans have their lebensraum because Italy was in that mess as well.

:confused:

http://www.library.georgetown.edu/dept/speccoll/britpost/p16s.jpghttp://www.tearsofllorona.com/hun2.jpghttp://www.ww1-propaganda-cards.com/images/wall05v.JPGhttp://www.ww1-propaganda-cards.com/images/wall04v.JPG

I found something ironic in the newspapers that ran the Abu Grabi pics into the ground and casting a bad ( rightly so) light upon the US wouldn't run the Muslim cartoons for fear of inflaming them.

Guess the Mulsim rioters have a new voting bloc/political power. Simply threaten to burn down buildings and newspapers will adhere to their wishes.

Fandros

Or the Brits beating an Iraqi on video... or false allegations of Koran flushing... the list goes on ad naseum. "Let's cause a riot! ...as long as it's not our building they'll burn down."

Buy Danish.

No embassies burned in this demonstration... Lebanese rally draws 500,000 to mark Hariri's death (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-02-14T130338Z_01_L14277960_RTRUKOC_0_US-LEBANON-HARIRI.xml&archived=False)

Baby steps. More please.

Muslims:

No further need for proof that the world is full of morons and idiots.

Whats is purely senseless in Pakistan is that the rioters burned so called "Icons" of american business. All fanchise operations mostly. Chances are these savages burned down businesses owned by fellow muslims that employed fellow muslims. So some muslim families are now deprived of their livelyhoods and all the folks that worked there...probably muslims since McDonalds probably doesn't send people hired in California to work in a McDonalds in Pakistan, into unemployment. "Peace" and "Muslim" are not to be used in the same sentance. This is a culture of savages following a militant religion hell bent on death and destruction that spoils any notion that there is a single peaceful and intelligent muslim on this globe. Outside perceptions are that muslims would rather see time spent alive on earth eating camel dung while living in a hole in the ground in the desert than actually enjoying meaningful productive lives before this afterlife they are in such a damn hurry to get to. They have no problem killing other sects of Muslims as well as all the so called infidels out there. Or so the PR depicts at this point. 2 people in Pakistan died today because of this cartoon. Killed over a CARTOON? Does anyone commit murder over a political cartoon if they are of a sound mind? But according to the pompous and aristocratic windbag named Halo, its all the USA's fault that the Muslim world is full of militant fantics. Or maybe its just how these people interpret the Koran.

Savages. Best hire some really good Public Relations experts to doctor that spin since its a good chance that cartoon would have never been drawn if there was not some underlying notion to provoke it.

"Peace" and "Muslim" are not to be used in the same sentance. This is a culture of savages following a militant religion hell bent on death and destruction that spoils any notion that there is a single peaceful and intelligent muslim on this globe.

I'm frustrated by these comments. Before you make such claims, ask yourself this: have you ever made a proactive effort to research Islam and its culture? Or, has all the information been presented to you throughout the course of your daily activities?

There's a profound difference between the two. If you want proof, go research the word "jihad." I think you'll find that its usage in the U.S. differs greatly from its actual meaning.

On the other hand Rol, I think you'll find it's definition misused by certain religious leaders of that very religion...

Fandros

Hmm, I think you'd have to be more specific, Fandros. Although I'm certain it has been, I haven't often heard the term misused - terrorism in the name of religion is possibly one type of jihad - but that, based on its common usage in the U.S. and other English speaking countries, its meaning has become limited to "holy war," and not "holy struggle."

Most would consider it a subtle difference, but I think it exemplifies how the popular perception of Islam as a violent religion has formed. Were I to speak to an audience of 100 non-muslims, and use the term jihad to describe memorizing the Qur'an, there's little chance that any in the room would understand what I was saying. The word has been stigmatized in such a way that many muslims avoid using the word at all - even to describe non-violent "holy struggles."

My main point is that it's dangerous to form an opinion about an entire culture only from knowledge you've gained via osmosis. We've seen countless conflicts between peoples throughout history, and this method of forming an opinion has almost always played a role in those conflicts.

I guess my perception is more inline with overuse than misuse.

A Jihad was to be more of a last resort, when all else fails kinda thing.

Hell , now the Iman's and Mulah's are yelling Jihad when you cross the street and lead with the wrong foot anymore.

So, change my term to overused....that make sense?

Fandros

My main point is that it's dangerous to form an opinion about an entire culture only from knowledge you've gained via osmosis. It's only dangerous if you're forming an opinion about Muslims.

You have a tribe of people living in the desert, with little in terms of resources other than what drinkable water they can find and the small patches of fertile ground here and there. There are constant wars with the other tribes over these few resources.

One day, one of the popular military leaders shares his vision that he was "given by God", and outlines the rules by which the tribe should live; and, if the people will follow these rules and live their lives in accordance with his teachings, they will have all kinds of wondrous rewards when they reach heaven.

These teachings start to spread to other tribes though intermarriage, conquest, etc. A new religion is born. As populations grow, people spread out further, and more are brought into the faith. When you have so little in life, the belief in so many rewards in the afterlife becomes precious. Over the course of centuries, different sects are established with their own "spin" on the teachings or their own tribal ways of interpreting the teachings. The religious teachers become revered, like the Shaman of old.

Enter the modern era, and oil is now found to be a huge resource in these deserts, and commerce becomes more of an economic boon to these people. They are exposed to other cultures, and they see others who have so much more than they have, and who live lifestyles so opposed to the teachings they have based their lives on for so many generations. Envy, jealousy, racial pride, and religious intolerance all bubble to the surface.

It is understandable when you look at these people to see why they would react in an insane (to us) manner over cartoons depicting their prophet., as it is all they have been taught and is ingrained into their way of life.

Only those who have lived outside the region, and/or been educated in western schools might be able to grasp our sense of freedom of speech; those who have lived within such a closed culture and religion all their lives will be very difficult to reason with on any topics related to their religion.

There will be another world war, and it will be based on religious beliefs.
And so, Iran must not be allowed to get nuclear capability, or it will be a Nuclear war.

And so, Iran must not be allowed to get nuclear capability, or it will be a Nuclear war.
Well, in the respect that if Iran uses a nuke it will thereafter cease to exist, and nukes may be involved in that. A protracted world-wrecking campaign seems unlikely to unfold.

Well, in the respect that if Iran uses a nuke it will thereafter cease to exist, and nukes may be involved in that. A protracted world-wrecking campaign seems unlikely to unfold.

I agree that it would not be a nuclear war in the sense of everyone tossing bombs at everyone else, but the use of such ordinance even if only on Iran (and whoever Iran attacks with their weapons), would make it a nuclear war.

It would be a world war in that there are fanatical Muslims spread all over the globe, and so all out warfare to root them out (and their attempts to destroy non-believers) would undoubtedly touch upon even more countries than were involved in the last global conflict.

Iran must not be allowed to get nuclear capability, or it will be a Nuclear war.

Or it could bring a stable peace to the Middle East that noone has thus far managed to pull off. MAD is the most powerful peacekeeper in the world. If you nuke me, I will nuke you back. Everyone loses. Israel is so far the lone nuclear power in that region and thus really has all the muscle. With the US backing them up, there really is no reason to compromise. Arab Muslims lose every time. Push comes to shove, Iran's military against the western nations (minus a nuke) is as pitiful as Iraq's was. No contest at all. The US has more to worry about from the global backlash that the act of aggressing another slightly backwards Islamic nation would cause and not so much the actual conflict. Throw in a nuke used on an invading army as a deperate defensive measure and you no longer have a rout. You have alot of dead soldiers and poor public sentiment at home with the fear of nukes being used on US soil in addition to whatever uproar the rest of the world would bring against the US. A big eye opener.

Well, anyway, enter the Iranian nuclear weapon. Lets say they build two of them, and load one up on a truck and take it out into the desert.....and blow it up. They don't bother to test it underground. Why pussyfoot around with that kind of nonsence? They make a nice big mushroom cloud that the whole world can see from orbiting cameras. They take the other one and squirrel it away somewhere and boast they can make a bunch more. Suddenly Islam is not hijacked airplanes crashing into buildings, car bombs, burning tires and kids throwing rocks. Its not fanatics wearing suicide vests in crowded shopping plazas. No, islam will have REAL teeth, and will want some respect. They will want to be dealt a hand and have all those doors that having a nuke tends to open opened nice and wide for them. There now IS reason to compromise. Compromise for everyone. Even the Iranian government will need to compromise, who just so happens to have a large population of college aged people who want a bit more out of life than to be bottled up under strict Islamic law that probably made more sense a thousand years ago but doesn't translate well into modern times. Good bet those kids won't all want to be vaporized in Allah's name.

Nuclear power is an investment in the future. An expensive one. It represents forward thinking. They could burn all that oil they sit on to make power but perhaps using the atom might be like being a drug pusher who doesn't actually use their product they push. Sell the crude, skip the refinery construction, bank the profits and develop technolgy that brings reliable fossil fuel free power AND weapons. If you want to, you can turn off the oil pumps, grab the world by the balls as prices skyrocket and still keep the lights on. Even though the US buys no oil from Iran, Iran shutting down production will still ripple around the world due to their being less aggregate supply to go around. Oh, you want to bargain by sending in troops to turn the oil spigots back on? Well say hello to my trusty fission bomb! Pissing off Israel or the US by nuking them in some kind of sneaky attack will run counter to that forward thinking.

Most governments (not all), no matter how much stupid trash their figureheads spew, want the BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME for their subjects. Its not entirely in human nature to destroy ourselves, even if the afterlife promices greater rewards. Iran's future should by all rights be looking brighter as compared to those days before petroleum when life offered no ways out but a belief in a better existance after death. Nuclear war with Iranian weapons in play pretty much would flush any gains Iran ever made straight down the toilet. With it would also go any last speck of respect Muslims still cling to in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Oh, and Roliel.... I am well aware of the fact that not all of Muslim people, teachings and prophecy centers around lopping off heads and mass killing. Most are just everyday people who have beliefs and would rather just be left alone just like anyone else. My remarks are more about the perceptions that many of their more extreme followers leave, which is very tarnished and tends to marginalize whatever gains and respect most muslims seek. Typical Joe Barstool types don't bother to do research to try and understand the news. They look at the TV, see muslims acting like assholes and then go back to the day to day things that don't allow most people to gain the knowledge to be a bit more objective in their conclusions.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up, Lummus. Rereading it, I now understand what you meant; perhaps I was eager for a fight. ;) Apologies.

'But according to the pompous and aristocratic windbag named Halo, its all the USA's fault that the Muslim world is full of militant fantics'

- I don't remember saying that?

Buy Danish, IMO.