http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01

I have started reading it and it is very interesting so far.

Nasypany starts walking up and down the floor, asking all his section heads and weapons techs if they are prepared to shoot down a civilian airliner if need be, but he's jumping the gun: he doesn't have the authority to order a shootdown, nor does Marr or Arnold, or Vice President Cheney, for that matter. The order will need to come from President Bush, who has only just learned of the attack at a photo op in Florida.So...for all those people who said those 7 or 8 minutes while Bush kept reading to the kids didn't matter...

Great find, thanks for posting it.

Being in the situation that Bush was in that day would mentally cripple any regular person. The problem is that we should be able to expect more from our commander in chief. Interesting article though.

No. I don't want to turn this into a Bush fight, and probably shouldn't have started the thread with that - but hell, I was in the shower when I heard and had the presence of mind to get out and get to a TV for information.

I finally finished, including listening to most of the transcripts. Taking it at face value is heartwrenching, listening to them scramble and do everything they could to do their jobs and save American targets. Kicks up some of the feelings I had back then about how we had to do something, but didn't know what. I'd hate to be Nasypany, or the fighter pilots who didn't know what was going on and were faced with targets like those. Sort of a little kudos to them for what they do.

We just had no clue that someone wanted to hit us this badly.
I remember when I heard 1 plane had hit the WTC, I thought, what a horrible accident. I thought it was a Cesna or other small plane.
When I found out it was a commercial passenger plane, I thought well, it could still have been an accident.
When I heard about the 2nd one I said out loud, "Aw Crap, we are under attack."
And as far as G.W. is concerned, he was a mediocre President placed in extraordinary circumstances.

When the first plane hit, a coworker came over and said a plane hit the trade centers in NY, we went and watched the video and I said it was on purpose, the flight pattern right into a building was to precise. my coworkers were arguing with me till the second plane hit. 45 minutes later the boss sent everyone home, I got online and one of my usual group memebers asked how she was supposed to explain this to her kids. I didnt have an answer for her that a kid could understand, and I still dont.

Rev

So...for all those people who said those 7 or 8 minutes while Bush kept reading to the kids didn't matter...

If you read the article - it obviously didn't, at least for the idea of the planes being shot down.

When the first plane hit, a coworker came over and said a plane hit the trade centers in NY, we went and watched the video and I said it was on purpose, the flight pattern right into a building was to precise.
First words out of my mouth (other than, maybe, "Holy shit"), we're "Bin Laden."
If you read the article - it obviously didn't, at least for the idea of the planes being shot down.
I've not read anything that would suggest Bush's inaction led to anything that wasn't going to happen anyway. He may look bad, continuing to read or whatever, but I don't know at this time that it would have made a difference.

I read that American Airlines withheld information regarding the status of their flights, which I find curious (to be kind).

I had the same thoughts, Thormir.

The communication broke down on every side, I guess that's the result of crossing civilian activity with military actions on US soil. FAA and the airlines weren't prepared to deal with NORAD, and it sounds like the military side didn't have the authority to do what they needed.

Not pointing fingers here. It reads to me like a massive tragedy, and not really something to blame anyone just yet. We'd never dealt with that sort of attack before.

Didn't Japan attack Pearl Harbor the same day they had a training planned, and that was part of why even though we picked up their bombers we were slow to respond?

I'll leave the Bush fight for another thread. :)

Wow that was truly interesting. Thank you for the link I've just spent the past 2 hrs pouring through it all. It saddens me and it scares me; we were so unprepared for this and it could have been so much worse.

16 aircraft, just 16 that's all we had prior to this protecting us. WTF. I definitely think blame shouldn't be pointed at any one individual but Cheney and Bush talking about giving the order to pilots to shoot stuff, yeah that was sick when they didn't do it until after 93 hit.

As a citizen I hope that things are better organized now but the realist in me says it's not. This past Monday I experienced the joys of witnessing a security flaw? at BWI. I was picking up an unaccompanied minor from a flight. When someone under 18 flies special things have to happen, namely you have to give the name and address of the person dropping off and picking the child up....well I'm at the counter getting my security pass to go meet the child....I gave a flight number and they just printed me a pass with my name on it.....due to unfortunate events it was the wrong flight number and I had to wait another hour but that's a different the story....the fact is the people at the counter DID NOT do what they were supposed to do and actually verify the minor I was picking up was on that flight. /sigh

Back on track here.... the only thing I can hope is that DHS is some how better than this and damn AAirlines for with holding info. I saw the movie United 93 and I teared up, I don't know if I'll be albe to watch 9/11.

Back on track here.... the only thing I can hope is that DHS is some how better than this and damn AAirlines for with holding info. Hate to pee in your breakfast, but all I'll say is, "Katrina Management."

Edit - Actually, to go on with an intelligent thought - recent disasters in the US have fairly well indicated that we are entirely incapable of handling a massive problem. Phoenix ruptures a gas pipeline two years ago, and there is no reliable backup for fuel to the city. East coast hits a major power outage...and...um...no one is really sure why for a while, or how to fix it. Katrina - 'nuff said. Can you image what would happen if we were faced with a military surprise threat? What if 9/11 hadn't just been one attack, but an invasion of sorts? I forget who it was, some dimestore military novelist, who recounted Mexico and South America invading the US by simply flooding across the boarder. Any of a number of scenarios, and I get the feeling if it isn't a formal declaration of war, we aren't prepared to handle it at all.

That article is killer - just look at how many different ways the system broke down, and that was only four airplanes. Scary stuff.

I shall show my ignorance....

Does FEMA fall under DHS?

Yes Fild, FEMA was folded into DHS, along with 22 other Federal agencies, about the time its budget was drastically cut and most of its personnel with actual experience handling natural disasters was let go as Federal budget priorities were shifted towards terrorism post 9/11. It was created by President Carter in 1979, and its powers were expanded and relief processes streamlined under President Clinton (his appointee to lead the agency, James Witt, was the only head in its history with actual experience as a state emergency manager and much of the credit for how well the agency functioned in the 1990s was due to his influence). Despite its recent appalling incompetence and vilification, until 2002/2003 it was actually a reasonably efficient and competent agency...

Regards,
Nydia

President Carter in 1997

1979 I think you meant

Yep, I reversed the numbers, it was late, fixed :).

ahh well /sigh so much for hoping.

/bends over and kisses ass goodbye

ahh well /sigh so much for hoping.

/bends over and kisses ass goodbye

It was the fact that Bush took away the cabinet level position and folded it into DHS that was bringing so many attacks post-Katrina. Folks were able to still recall the way that FEMA had been so much better prepared and helpful during previous hurricanes, the Mississippi flooding some years back, etc; but, that was all before losing it's status as a separate entity with skilled people involved in disaster resposnse management.

And yet Katrina is still the largest and fastest response the US Government has ever given a disaster.

Bravo for swallowing the spin of the politicos.

Just remember, no one wore a FEMA hat after 9/11. It was all NYPD and NYFD... as it should have been.

And yet Katrina is still the largest and fastest response the US Government has ever given a disaster.

Bravo for swallowing the spin of the politicos.I'm not sure which way you mean that. But for the sake of argument, if that's the fastest we can manage, what does that suggest for our future in the face of bigger disasters?

And yet Katrina is still the largest and fastest response the US Government has ever given a disaster.

Bravo for swallowing the spin of the politicos.

Just remember, no one wore a FEMA hat after 9/11. It was all NYPD and NYFD... as it should have been.

Umm...you should read about the response for the 1906 earthquake in San Francisco. In 6 days every tent in the US Army was brought to SF, and that was before cars. There is a bunch more related info that made Katrina help seem soso.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2315076.html

MYTH: "The aftermath of Katrina will go down as one of the worst abandonments of Americans on American soil ever in U.S. history."--Aaron Broussard, president, Jefferson Parish, La., Meet the Press, NBC, Sept. 4, 2005

REALITY: Bumbling by top disaster-management officials fueled a perception of general inaction, one that was compounded by impassioned news anchors. In fact, the response to Hurricane Katrina was by far the largest--and fastest-rescue effort in U.S. history, with nearly 100,000 emergency personnel arriving on the scene within three days of the storm's landfall.

Dozens of National Guard and Coast Guard helicopters flew rescue operations that first day--some just 2 hours after Katrina hit the coast. Hoistless Army helicopters improvised rescues, carefully hovering on rooftops to pick up survivors. On the ground, "guardsmen had to chop their way through, moving trees and recreating roadways," says Jack Harrison of the National Guard. By the end of the week, 50,000 National Guard troops in the Gulf Coast region had saved 17,000 people; 4000 Coast Guard personnel saved more than 33,000.

These units had help from local, state and national responders, including five helicopters from the Navy ship Bataan and choppers from the Air Force and police. The Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries dispatched 250 agents in boats. The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), state police and sheriffs' departments launched rescue flotillas. By Wednesday morning, volunteers and national teams joined the effort, including eight units from California's Swift Water Rescue. By Sept. 8, the waterborne operation had rescued 20,000.

While the press focused on FEMA's shortcomings, this broad array of local, state and national responders pulled off an extraordinary success--especially given the huge area devastated by the storm. Computer simulations of a Katrina-strength hurricane had estimated a worst-case-scenario death toll of more than 60,000 people in Louisiana. The actual number was 1077 in that state.

NEXT TIME: Any fatalities are too many. Improvements hinge on building more robust communications networks and stepping up predisaster planning to better coordinate local and national resources.

I suspect, no I know that our nation's military and control centers had the exact same level of professionalism and dedication before and after Katrina that you've read about from the people in this Vanity Fair article. Multiply that by about 200,000.

So go ahead and disparage Bush for hiring a completely incompetent wanker who at times was more worried about what he was wearing for the cameras than what was really happening.

But in doing so, you're doing two things: First, you're dissing the utterly heroic efforts and successes of our nations armed forces, rescue workers, and organizations who brought aid for the aftermath.

Secondly, you're ignoring the glaringly obvious problem that still exists today.
http://www.laughtergenealogy.com/blog/pics/katrinabuses.jpg

When New Orleans chief of police cried on national TV that his officers couldn't work without having a place to poop I smirked. When I saw on TV his police officers actually looting Wal Mart, I wanted to vomit.

The governor, the mayor, all cried and wrung their hands on national TV instead of being the solid rock confidence and selflessness that was required of them.

The same corruption and selfishness at all levels of the state and local governments exist today. Another hurricane hits New Orleans in future... New president, new FEMA head, and you're going to get the exact same or worse results...

This one is going to hurt a bit Akipt.

That article in Popular Mechanics..... did you happen to notice it was written by a senior editor of the magazine... And did you catch his name???

Ben Chertoff....
Yea, he is the first cousin of FEMA director Michael Chertoff. Weird how these things work, eh?

Btw, Akipt. Something I always wondered about that school bus picture. Who was supposed to drive those things? Im thinking back to the adventures of my school bus day and some of the morons that drove the bus to school, and Im thinking Id take my chances with the flood, all things considered.
New Orleans couldnt even keep cops in town, how were they supposed to moblize the lowest paid, least motivated part of their city workforce?

Yea, he is the first cousin of FEMA director Michael Chertoff. Weird how these things work, eh?Did he write anything factually incorrect? Yes or no.

Bumbling by top disaster-management officials fueled a perception of general inaction I'm sure his cousin appreciated that.

New Orleans couldnt even keep cops in town, how were they supposed to moblize the lowest paid, least motivated part of their city workforce?And this is FEMA's fault? And practically anyone could drive a freakin bus. Puleease.

This one is going to hurt a bit Lleauric.

Photo by Benjamin Chertoff
Reporting: Camas Davis, Nicole Davis, Christian DeBenedetti, Brad Reagan, Kristin Roth

So go ahead and disparage Bush for hiring a completely incompetent wanker who at times was more worried about what he was wearing for the cameras than what was really happening.

But in doing so, you're doing two things: First, you're dissing the utterly heroic efforts and successes of our nations armed forces, rescue workers, and organizations who brought aid for the aftermath.



I take great umbrage in that statement. To speak out against the inadeqate leadership in no way disrespects the heroic efforts of the aid bringers on the ground.

It is often the inadequate leaders that disparage those directly on the ground in these impossible situations, it is not the citizen who speaks out against the leaders. We live in a nation of leaders who refuse to bare any responsibility for the decisions they make, leaders who deflect the blame to the lowest possible levels.

We've seen this with Katrina as Bush and many Senators were more openly horrified that someone had purchased a bottle of champagne with a red cross debit card than they were with the fact that contractors are overcharging millions of dollars for debris removal.

We've seen this in Iraq with the Abu Gharab scandal with the only people feeling any retribution was some poor army national guard pfc with an IQ barely 70 and the guy that was fucking her. Unfortunately our heroic troops are the ones who have paid the real price as being targeted by insurgents who were looking to make someone pay for the policies that had them thrown into that prison.

How dare you say that by speaking out against inadequate leaders we disparage the heroic efforts of our military...you are wrong...so wrong.

So go ahead and disparage Bush for hiring a completely incompetent wanker who at times was more worried about what he was wearing for the cameras than what was really happening.

But in doing so, you're doing two things: First, you're dissing the utterly heroic efforts and successes of our nations armed forces, rescue workers, and organizations who brought aid for the aftermath.



We are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

First, I truly believe Bush bungled with regard to changing the structure of FEMA in his haste to make an UBER Department of Be-all and Do-all for National Security. FEMA had proven itself to be effective and competent, from the Mississippi flooding from Minnesota right down to the Gulf back in the late 80's, to the handling of so many terrible hurricnaes, along the Atlantic coast and Florida peninsula. By having the Dept head as a Cabinet level post there was a constant flow of information available at the highest levels without the layers of bureucracy we now have.

I admit, I may be somewhat naive to the workings of the Capitol during prior disasters, but I do know what I was seeing both in broadcast news and print in the last 20 years with regard to disaster response.

Lastly, I have not dissed anyone that was involved in the attempts to assist those in the Katrina aftermath by speaking out against what I perceive to be a Bush error. That is the kind of exxaggerated spin I expect to see from the likes of Gibson and Cavuto, who are being paid to talk silly.

And, as I am not disrespecting any of those whio donated time and money and did what they could to assist, either as part of their jobs or as an act of charity, so too I hope you will not be creditting Bush with all the efforts made by so many. That would be just as silly.

Oh please Rover.

My point being, Korlis sees fit to praise the Army of last century, but other than that, nothing is noted about the heroic and titan rescue effort and reconstruction going into the region before, during, and after Katrina.

It's all about Bush... whine whine whine moan moan cry cry cry.

Grow some balls and drive a gottdamned bus to help people for God's sake. Don't loot WalMart and then get on national TV and cry about what Bush is doing in Iraq made you the sorry asshat you are today.

Fuck the spin and politics. I'm getting so sick of it.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/marketing/1100892.html

POPULAR MECHANICS.COM
Online Editor Benjamin Chertoff

Yea. No bias here. Are you serious? You see nothing wrong here? You lose at objective credibility.

And this is FEMA's fault? And practically anyone could drive a freakin bus. Puleease.

Uhhh yes. Because FEMA was meant to take control of the situation when the existing infrastructure completely breaks down. Katrina was a disaster of such magnitude that local operations were almost impossible. And no, not anyone can drive a bus. You need a special drivers license to legally operate a bus. Now, I know, your going to say "But it was an Emergency!". Yes, but think about planning. When you are planning disaster relief, no city lawyer in the world is going to sign off on a plan to allow unlicensed people drive mass amounts of people around. Once it became apparent that it was a overwhelming crisis, it was too late, there would have been no way to marshal enough people to drive those buses as the evacuation order had been given days prior.

And this is FEMA's fault? And practically anyone could drive a freakin bus. Puleease.
The school bus photo is a shot at Mayor Nagin and an attempt to deflect criticism from FEMA/Bush. And if the bus drivers had already left, along with most of the rest of the city, who was to be found that could and would drive the buses (particularly thru the poorest, often most dangerous sections of the city) picking up god knows who to cart them god knows where?

And let's not forget that Bush put Rove of all people in charge of reconstruction.

The school bus photo is a shot at Mayor Nagin and an attempt to deflect criticism from FEMA/Bush. And if the bus drivers had already left, along with most of the rest of the city, who was to be found that could and would drive the buses (particularly thru the poorest, often most dangerous sections of the city) picking up god knows who to cart them god knows where?

And let's not forget that Bush put Rove of all people in charge of reconstruction.

LOL...you are exactly dead on. So if 200 people each grabbed a bus and each bus holds 60 people now there are 12000 people being driven to....? And where were these busses to be fueled? The bus issue is at the very least a non-issue. Deflection is correct, thats all it is about.

Now moving on to Rove as the great reconstructor. Wouldn't we want someone with some type of logistics and maybe some type of construction management experience in this role?

Lets see...is Rove qualified for the job?

In the fall of 1969, Rove entered the University of Utah, majoring in political science. Hmmmm...

nope no qualification here.

Through the University's Hinckley Institute of Politics, Rove got an internship with the Utah Republican Party. That, and contacts from the 1968 Bennett campaign, helped Rove land a job in 1970 in Illinois, helping on the unsuccessful re-election campaign of Ralph Tyler Smith for the U.S. Senate.

Hmmmm...not there either.

In the fall of 1970, Rove used a false identity to enter the campaign office of Democrat Alan J. Dixon, who was running for Illinois State Treasurer, and stole 1000 sheets of paper with campaign letterhead. Rove then printed fake campaign rally fliers promising "free beer, free food, girls and a good time for nothing," and distributed them at rock concerts and homeless shelters.

Hmmm...we might be getting close...at least to qualify for commiting fraud. What better guy to have watching for fraud than someone who has committed fraud...won't pull the wool over his eyes must be the thinking from the top down.


In June 1971, Rove dropped out of the University of Utah to take a paid position as the Executive Director of the College Republican National Committee. Joe Abate, who was National Chairman of the College Republicans at the time, became a mentor to Rove.

Getting closer...hmmmm...maybe not...but hey dropping out of college to work for "The College Republicans" well...it is creative.


Rove held the position of Executive Director of the College Republicans until early 1973.

Well...Ok...he was in charge of something.

Hey he's qualified!!!!

POPULAR MECHANICS.COM
Online Editor Benjamin Chertoff


Its people like you that use facts that screw everything up for our troops on the ground whether it be Katrina or Iraq.

Speaking of Katrina, got back from New Orleans maybe a week ago - surprised how really absolutely nothing has been done yet. There is just entire city blocks taped off with "to be demolished" signs, but absolutely no construction was taking place during my entire 4-day visit. And we were going out of our way to try to find some construction for our piece. No insurance money has turned up for 90% of the folks that lived down there yet, no suitable housing is made available for those who didn't move away forever, and the blatant racism with hiring for jobs is absolutely disgusting. There was a fairly clean cut black guy we passed on our first day asking if anyone was hiring, I think we saw him four or five times over the course of our visit ducking into every resturant and bar and store there was looking for work and couldn't find anything though MOST of the resturants are horribly understaffed (took us over 2 hours to get served dinner when we went out on Bourbon Street).

What reconstruction?

What reconstruction?

The reconstruction that Karl Rove is running....god man...are you blind...you don't see it? You must be influenced by the liberal media or maybe you like terrorists.

The point is getting lost here. Response for Katrina broke down at every side, starting at the very top down to street bums who were unable to evacuate. Blaming someone for not driving a bus is silly.

I truly believe we'll never know what actually happened in the NO area during Katrina. The official reports are very different from the information coming out in blogs and forums, and panicked witnesses. Some news reports talked about gangs and widespread human violence, others claimed virtually nothing happened. Were their riots in the streets? Gun toting thugs? Gang rape in the Superdome? The end result was that it was still what, three days? before a major relief effort entered the area. And that was after Chertoff and Brown had spilled more than their share of stupid one liners.

I'm very sure there were men and women working their damn hardest to save lives. There were also lots of slow to react people at the top who refused to do what was needed, and never should have been in a place to make decisions in the first place.

There's a reason I compare that to 9/11 and even further with the NORAD article. Who would you blame for failing to find the planes, according to that article? It's hard to point a finger, it looks like a break down on every side. No one's fault, except the original organizers and planners. But that's how we respond to emergencies, and that coupled with Katrina paints a bleak picture of US disaster response abilities.

Too many people, too much land. Just imagine if it had been two sided - say, a hurricane in the east and a major earthquake in the west. Or a power outage in the north at the same time as the hurricane. Or a gas shortage. Or whatever.

You're absolutely correct Kanyli the reports we hear on the news from "officials" do not jive with people who lived it. I have family who "used" to live in Slidel, La. I say used to b/c they have been living with family since Katrina. Their accounts of the tragedy they witnessed is disgusting. A very good friend of my sister's used to live in St. Bernard Parish she moved to Colorado recently after having tried to live at home again. Home for her is not the same, crime is unreal she said most stores are closed, there are curfews and areas are becoming ghost towns. This is why she moved, it's not the same....and dead bodies? She's seen allot since she returned after the ban on residents was lifted. She has some gruesome stories.

My relatives from Slidell lost everything, their home was completely and utterly flooded. They went back retrieved what they could and have been staying with other family in Ga since. Neither of these two families have gotten insurance settlements or much help but in both cases they have decided to give up living in the New Orleans area. Both blame the federal government and the governor and Nagin.

But the fact is this... no matter how much planning for disasters organizations do...the mock trials hospitals do, etc...there is one factor which is completely unstable in the equation and that is us...humans... no one knows how they will act in certain situations...certain types of training is supposed to condition individuals to react appropriately in disaster situations but it is still up to the individual to follow through. Those people in New Orleans were poor, uneducated, and high crime risk it was a ticking time bomb. Who is to say that if this had happened in Florida or Texas or the outer banks of NC what the result would have been? Human nature weighs allot into equations. But yes, we weren't and still aren't ready for a big disaster I firmly believe that :( But the even more pessismistic side of me thinks we may never be.

Just imagine for a moment, if the money spent on toppling the Saddam power structure had instead been spent on upgrading the national power-grid (and providing appropriate security) and improvements to infrastructure and interstate highway system, and reinforcing the emergency response teams around the country........


.........now that would make me feel more secure.


I agree that the human factor can never be guaranteed to respond to a situation in any certain manner, and what we have seen from 9/11 on up thru Katrina has demonstrated some of the most truly heroic as well as some of the most despicable behaviors on the part of our people at all levels. What also bothers me is the picture our handling of the Katrina aftermath has shown the rest of the world; how many small towns and villages were seemingly neglected while the focus was on the port/entertainment city of New Orleans, where the tourists go? This was, and remains, a mess. Hopefully there are those in places of power who have taken a lesson from it and changes are in place, or being put there.