http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/07/03/north.korea.ap/index.html

Anytime I have thought about nuclear attacks in the US, it has always been a dirty bomb and I assumed it would be on the east coast, and originate in the middle east. Unfortunately, I am now forced to be aware of the fact that north Korea supposedly has an icbm that can deliver a nuke to southern California. What are the possible scenarios being bandied about? It reminds me of a cops show I once saw. There was a man who was holding a baby hostage with a knife up to its neck. There was an army of police trying to negotiate with him. The longer you wait without doing anything the chances that he will kill the baby increase (I guess). If you take a sniper shot and miss, he will surely kill the baby. The only real chance is to take the sniper shot and get him between the eyes. So with Korea do we do an overwhelming pre-emptive strike on all facilites that can launch a missle and hope we dont miss any or they dont get one off before we can get it? Because we know the anti missle system is poor at best. Or do we just wait and see what he does? That missle that he put on the launch pad the other week was supposedly able to reach the west coast and who knows if it had a warhead or not. Do we want to risk them launching a real weapon under the guise of a "test" and find out it's live once it destroys CA? Bush totally dropped the ball by involving us in Iraq while Kim jong il was totally unchecked. Should I just move? :(

Bush totally dropped the ball by involving us in Iraq


Yeah sad isn't it. But don't forget...we fight them over there because if we didn't we'd be fighting them over here.

Sadly there is about 30% of the US that is mesmerized by the Bush administration and actually believes the only thing he has done wrong is nominate Harriet Meyers to the Supreme Court...other than that he's done an excellent job when it comes to anything else.

Its a shame that the liberal media has done so much damage to the war on terror by once again pointing out a national secret because until they started printing stuff like "North Korea has nukes" no one knew except those in the Whitehouse, now North Korea knows we know and they will now tellother countries we know things about them which will allow them to know that we know what they didn't think we know but now we know and they know too. Proving its not so much as what you know but who knows you know it.

It wouldn't surprise me if their missile blew up in its silo. Was it Kruschev's son who said something like, "Had the US and USSR gone to war, half of the Soviet Union's missiles would have failed to launch"? Something like that anyway. Obviously, we should be concerned. Ultimately, Iraq may be irrelevant to the NK situation -- invading NK would result in massive casualties even were we at 100% readiness. Cruise missiles are more likely. Or maybe that di-...dip-...that thing where we talk to them.

US and Japan hanging and banging together is getting NK increasingly nervous. US to the best of my knowledge is upgrading bases, even making them bigger, in Japan and installing defenses to hit NK's possible missle attack/even stop them before they get to far. It would take a lot for a missle to fly all the way from NK and hit the US but then again anything is possible.

Given the US has outright stated that we will attack anyone we want, whenever we want, it's not surprising (however deplorable) that nations we have identified as not toeing our line make such threats. I know it's going to sound crazy given the last 50 years of US political thinking, but the best way to avoid war with North Korea is to effect a transparent and gradual recall of our extensive and functionally useless base infrastructure on the DMZ there. As it stands, we shuffled troops and planes there every so often to remind NK that we can hit them at will, in what has to be the single longest standing edifice against reconciliation ... it's been there twenty years longer than the Berlin Wall.

Don't forget these other important issues that have been occupying those who govern our country.

Terry Schiavo
Evolution
Resolution saying stay in Iraq
Video Games and poor kids stealing cars
Gay Marriage Ban Amendment
Flag Burning Amendment
The traitorous NY Times
The Latest and Greatest! - Christian film's PG rating

With the listed problems above how can any of you expect our leaders to be concerned with such trivial matters as North Korean Nuclear (Nukular) missiles.

Jesus, Malse....

your total lack of understanding of all things Military sicken me.

Fandros

Btw Rover...

I think we will end up having to do something about NK, as always folks like you who would rage after the fact are the ones dragging your feet before the fact on this one.

Fandros

We wont do anything...
Maybe we will lob a few cruise missles in.. Probably wont.

It just isnt worth the trouble.

Btw Rover...

I think we will end up having to do something about NK, as always folks like you who would rage after the fact are the ones dragging your feet before the fact on this one.

Fandros

Dragging my feet before the fact? I was wondering about a year ago why your exalted leader was just letting the NK thing go. I think you rage after the fact...after the facts show that you bought into a bunch of bullshit spoon fed to you by Bush.

But wait...what are we saying...we must get Bin Laden...he is the biggest threat to our nation. So much of a threat that President Bush and Vice President Cheney tell us so in every speech they give, so much of a threat to our nation that we have created special intelligence units to handle this very threat...

NY Times -July 4, 2006
C.I.A. Closes Unit Focused on Capture of bin Laden
By MARK MAZZETTI
WASHINGTON, July 3 ? The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday.
The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said.

The decision is a milestone for the agency, which formed the unit before Osama bin Laden became a household name and bolstered its ranks after the Sept. 11 attacks, when President Bush pledged to bring Mr. bin Laden to justice "dead or alive."

The realignment reflects a view that Al Qaeda is no longer as hierarchical as it once was, intelligence officials said, and a growing concern about Qaeda-inspired groups that have begun carrying out attacks independent of Mr. bin Laden and his top deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Agency officials said that tracking Mr. bin Laden and his deputies remained a high priority, and that the decision to disband the unit was not a sign that the effort had slackened. Instead, the officials said, it reflects a belief that the agency can better deal with high-level threats by focusing on regional trends rather than on specific organizations or individuals.

"The efforts to find Osama bin Laden are as strong as ever," said Jennifer Millerwise Dyck, a C.I.A. spokeswoman. "This is an agile agency, and the decision was made to ensure greater reach and focus."

The decision to close the unit was first reported Monday by National Public Radio.

Michael Scheuer, a former senior C.I.A. official who was the first head of the unit, said the move reflected a view within the agency that Mr. bin Laden was no longer the threat he once was.
Mr. Scheuer said that view was mistaken.
"This will clearly denigrate our operations against Al Qaeda," he said. "These days at the agency, bin Laden and Al Qaeda appear to be treated merely as first among equals."

In recent years, the war in Iraq has stretched the resources of the intelligence agencies and the Pentagon, generating new priorities for American officials. For instance, much of the military's counterterrorism units, like the Army's Delta Force, had been redirected from the hunt for Mr. bin Laden to the search for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who was killed last month in Iraq.

An intelligence official who was granted anonymity to discuss classified information said the closing of the bin Laden unit reflected a greater grasp of the organization. "Our understanding of Al Qaeda has greatly evolved from where it was in the late 1990's," the official said, but added, "There are still people who wake up every day with the job of trying to find bin Laden."
Established in 1996, when Mr. bin Laden's calls for global jihad were a source of increasing concern for officials in Washington, Alec Station operated in a similar fashion to that of other agency stations around the globe.

The two dozen staff members who worked at the station, which was named after Mr. Scheuer's son and was housed in leased offices near agency headquarters in northern Virginia, issued regular cables to the agency about Mr. bin Laden's growing abilities and his desire to strike American targets throughout the world.

In his book "Ghost Wars," which chronicles the agency's efforts to hunt Mr. bin Laden in the years before the Sept. 11 attacks, Steve Coll wrote that some inside the agency likened Alec Station to a cult that became obsessed with Al Qaeda.

"The bin Laden unit's analysts were so intense about their work that they made some of their C.I.A. colleagues uncomfortable," Mr. Coll wrote. Members of Alec Station "called themselves 'the Manson Family' because they had acquired a reputation for crazed alarmism about the rising Al Qaeda threat."
Intelligence officials said Alec Station was disbanded after Robert Grenier, who until February was in charge of the Counterterrorist Center, decided the agency needed to reorganize to better address constant changes in terrorist organizations.

Nah, your lack of understanding and total blind rage against the right have you sucking at the hind teet of the machinations of those that think for you.

I digress tho, NK should be handled by China and those in theatre. I know China has been pushing for them not to test that missile.

I agree with Thor, I wouldn't be suprised if that missile blew up in it's silo.

Fandros

Dragging my feet before the fact? I was wondering about a year ago why your exalted leader was just letting the NK thing go. I think you rage after the fact...after the facts show that you bought into a bunch of bullshit spoon fed to you by Bush.



oh and you did't? Thats right you were not even on this forum when the war with Iraq broke out, unless of course you changed your name? There wasn't but one or two people on this forum at the start of the Iraq war that said anything about being spoon fed...and you sure as the hell wasn't one of them.

Look, there are perfectly valid reasons to dislike or distrust Bush and his administration. That I, or Rover, or whoever fall into that camp doesn't impact the validity of a good argument. That doesn't mean all arguments are necessarily good, only that they should be examined based on their merits. Likewise, general support for Bush has little to do with the merit of a given argument supportive of his policies.

Statements like "you're being spoonfed by Bush/the media/Bush haters" are non-starters because they're so easily reversible. "Your love of Bush blinds you to his misdeeds!" "Your hate of Bush makes you not see reason!" "Your mother is ugly!" None of it's worthwhile (unless your goal is to jerk the other person's chain, of course).

Back to the topic at hand, I hope China handles the NK issue sensibly, and that NK will back down. But China has a hell of a disagreeable streak when it comes to international matters, and they're not in the crosshairs. They'll be interesting to watch as this missile issue continues to unfold.

It unfolded:

North Korea Fires Missiles Into Sea of Japan

oh and you did't? Thats right you were not even on this forum when the war with Iraq broke out, unless of course you changed your name? There wasn't but one or two people on this forum at the start of the Iraq war that said anything about being spoon fed...and you sure as the hell wasn't one of them.

OMG you caught me..whatsover shall I do. This makes you less of a chickenhawk because?

Showing your true colors again I see. Now I know what happened to Jed.

According to the news, Norad has detected (depending on source between 3 and 6) missiles fired into the Sea of Japan. One of the new Tae-po-schlong 2 missiles was launched and failed approx 35 seconds after launch. American officials are in contact with both Japan and China, and have called the launches an act of provocation.

While attempting to be aggressive, they have now embarrassed themselves with the failure of their new long range missile. No doubt, some people have already been imprisoned and their families removed from any privileged situations for this blemish on the people of North Korea. My hunch is that they will make sure the missile is going to work before wagging their dick's at us and the rest of their geographical area again.

Now, the next thing to watch is for the response to this, as so many of the "consultants" featured on the talk shows seem to want to talk stupid over this, as tho' we were the only power on the planet and need not worry about any but ourselves. North Korea attempted to force their way into a race with their shoelaces tied together, and now it will be up to the their neighbors and the UN Security council to form a reply to today's action.

Might I recommend "The Mouse That Roared" with Peter Sellers for your viewing pleasure.

Thanks Bylimet for getting back on topic. I am interested to know what the US/international response is to this. I was hoping for more discussion about the option of striking all their launching pads / nuclear facilites in one fell swoop. Back to my example, do we wait to see if he kills the baby while attempting to negotiate or do we give the sniper the go ahead?

In the case of Iraq, I think it was a huge mistake of an elective war for oil and profiteering. In the case of NK I think a pre-emptive strike is well deserved, and I support it.

As much as I hate to think it, a pre-emptive strike may actually be the best thing in this scenario. If we could get China on board as an active participant it would be all that more a strong message that the world will not tolerate any loose cannons in this day and age.

China's emergence as a major economic player makes it a more possible option as North Korea would be a threat to their well-being if it were to continue it's current course. But, if China is adamantly against this option, we may be opening an even larger can of worms to do it on our own in their sphere of influence.

Honestly the thought of going to war with North Korea scares me. Shit with the uproaor over the number of casualties in Iraq which (and I in no way mean to belittle the sacrafices made by those who have died there) are far lower still than we expected on the initial push to Baghdad back in 2003. Korea would(will) be a huge mess if(when) we go to war with them. Rather than the hand wringing and shouts of quagmire we hear now about Iraq, it will be a sad reality in North Korea. We have seen it once before in the last century. I hope we never have to set foot in the God forsaken country ever again.
Hopefully if it does come to military action they'll use more of the methods that we did in Kosovo, and bomb the bejesus out of them before we ever move in on the ground.

And once again Malse speaks up, and has no clue what the hell he is talking about, but thats a whole other issue.

North Korea is a very scary place, undoubtedly one of the most opressive regimes to ever exist. I wonder if it would turn into an insurgency or end up being the "war of liberation" that was hoped for in Iraq.

Who are the allies of North Korea? Is Russia? From what I understand China is not in love with them, but would China allow for a US military action right on their border? South Korea has a fairly disciplined and effective military, maybe it should be up to them to take a lead here.

Also when it comes to a nuclear strike by NK, I would think that one of our strategic subs could pretty much obliterate them if we needed to go that route.

Really I don't think it's a question of if we could obliterate North Korea or not, it's just what would happen if we did launch a first strike. And if we don't and they do nuke us first, what kind of damage/fall-out (both literal and political) will there be.

I think with today's development that you'll see serious sanctions against North Korea.

Which is what their crazy lil leader wants so he can cry to his people how the West is keeping them down. That their only option will be to attack South Korea.

Fandros

I'd like to think that orders to attack SK would incite an insurrection against Kim Jong Il, but maybe that's the mimosas talking. Given the state of the country, I'm amazed it hasn't happened already.

You guys need to watch a couple documentaries about North Korea.

There will never be an insurrection.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3787046457101273554&q=North+Korea

And another missile is launched this morning.

/sigh

/nods L2.

I don't think we, as a free society, can fathom just how opressive a regime NK has.

Those folks barely have the option when to sleep...

Fandros

I found it alarming and curious that the first missle was launched yesterday just minutes before Discovery lifting off. I also found it alarming and concerning that China announced it would be visiting with NK shortly before the first launch.

Did China know what NK was up to?

The main problem I see with economic sanctions is that since Kim dick-suck il or whatever his name is, has such complete control over the minds and will of the people, he will continue to take from them and they will ultimately see him as a savior standing up to the evil westerners that are trying to kill him. When you have social engineering that goes on to the scale that NK imposes on generations of people, it is hard to convince them otherwise. Look at what China is doing.. most teenagers there have no clue who the man in front of the tank is. Slowly, and with the help of Google and Yahoo, they will soon forget him entirely.


As for what we should do? I agree first and formost that that Di- or Dip- word that Thormir was trying to say should be used.

By the way.. where is all that oil we got from Iraq... I have not seen it at the Gas pumps.. it has to be somewhere..

China is not in cahoots with NK, you can be sure of that.. NK is the ultimate loner.

NK is a destablizing force in the region. Having a nuclear North Korea is in nobodys best interest. It almost automatically triggers a regional arms race and invites more American presence. Today China is all about free trade, it is much closer to South Korea than it is to North Korea due to trade and economic ties. They mutually and benefically co-exist. China and South Korea have trade which exceeds 150 Billion per year in volume.
North Korea is a drain on Chinese resources.

The first salvo from North Korea in response to a US air strike will be a massive bombardment of Seoul, a city of 12 Million people and the linch pin of SK economy.
Seoul is within ARTILLERY range of North Korea, they dont need missles or bombers. They will simply open up from their fortified hidden bunkers along the border at the 38th parallel and incinerate Seoul.

So before we undertake ANY military action against NK, we need to ask ourselves is it worth the loss of Seoul? What are we willing to sacrifice the lives of 12 million people for?

/nods

We have a substantial military presence ourselves in South Korea and the loss of American life would overshadow quickly what we've lost in Iraq.

Black ops time, drop the dime on Kim Ill whats his name as well as his supporting cast. Hell work China into the ops for all around warm fuzzies.

Fandros

8th biggest Army? Biggest Navy in the world? Hitler-esque regime? I see dark times ahead.

Their military might is inconsequential (sp) as a matter of direct threat to the US and I think it highly unlikely they'd be willing to push North into areas controlled directly by China.

What is of concern is the 12 million folks that would immediately feel the wrath of NK's insane leadership. In effect they are held hostage by those hidden bunkers L2 pointed out.

I highly doubt the recent missile launchs would have taken place if Seoul wasn't being held in NK's sights.

Fandros

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/korea/articles/20060705.aspx
Meanwhile, North Korean officials engage in even more bizarre behavior. For example, food and fuel supplies sent to North Korea have been halted, not to force North Korea to stop missile tests or participate in peace talks, but to return the Chinese trains the aid was carried in on. In the last few weeks, the North Koreans have just kept the trains, sending the Chinese crews back across the border. North Korea just ignores Chinese demands that the trains be returned, and insists that the trains are part of the aid program. It's no secret that North Korean railroad stock is falling apart, after decades of poor maintenance and not much new equipment. Stealing Chinese trains is a typical loony-tune North Korean solution to the problem. If the North Koreans appear to make no sense, that's because they don't. Put simply, when their unworkable economic policies don't work, the North Koreans just conjure up new, and equally unworkable, plans. The Chinese have tried to talk the North Koreans out of these pointless fantasies, and for their trouble they have their trains stolen. How do you negotiate under these conditions? No one knows. The South Koreans believe that if they just keep the North Korean leaders from doing anything too destructive (especially to South Korea), eventually the tragicomic house of cards up north will just collapse. Not much of a plan, but so far, no one's come up with anything better.

8th biggest Army? Biggest Navy in the world? Hitler-esque regime? I see dark times ahead



As Fandros said.. Thier military is not really a threat in the sense of striking America. They cannot project thier might, and that would be thier downfall. Air superiority wins wars.. not naval. Not to mention that when you take size of military into consideration, they count equipment that is outdated but still functional. What do you think thier equipment is like? I once read somewhere that one of the "military" parades that Kim had (the ones where the mililtary is goose-stepping down the street)was the same group of soldiers circling the block multiple time to make it appear larger. Not sure if it is true.. but that would sound like something he would do.

As for China, I am not so sure about how well they can project thier military might either. I have stated before, that China is a giant sponge when it comes to repelling invasion, but is not equipped to project war outside its borders. It is my belief that thier infastructure is so "fragile" that a disruption that could interfer with harvesting of crops or similar situations, could be very bad. When you have a billion mouths to feed.. there is not alot of room for failure. But then again.. shown my track record for mind-reading and guessing, I am probably wrong.

Russia is who we need to get directly involved..They have not had a good war in a while.. I am sure the Spetsnaz have some build up fustrations they could get rid of.

I wasnt talking about them striking us, Im talking about us striking them

I knew what you meant Mog, and in a way I agree, but overall, they are really not that big of a threat other than what they can do to South Korea. They have no friends, and since Icrarus was destroyed by 007, we have nothing other than those cool armored hovercrafts to worry about. Seriously though, NK is dangerous, but I think that being pressured on all borders will give Kim something to think about at night. Then he can truely sing "I'm so lonely..so lonely..", until the FAGs come to save him.

If we do something, we're war mongers and innocent American lives are lost (soldiers). If we do nothing, innocent lives are lost (Seoul). Loose/Loose

Maybe if Hilliary gets in office maybe she, in her infinite Liberal wisdom, will figure it out. Hell, maybe she broker some kind of land deal in NK?

It'll be a loss anyway and the Republicans can fling back some of that shit that's piled up around their feet.

About the only way we could 'win' in a military offensive against North Korea and save on civilian and military casualties, would be to launch a blitzkreig against them. I don't mean a few surgical air strikes. I mean an offensive
strike that comepletely obliterates their military in a very literal and figurative sense. We're talking a glass parking lot, and all happening within 5 minutes of the first bomb hitting. If/When war breaks out, this will be ugly. Vietnam won't have shit on this one.

Well yer right, if we go into North Korea like we did Vietnam then we'd fight a very very ugly war.

Fandros

There is no solution to the North Korean problem.
Golda Meir once said that often times in the course of the history of a nation we are forced to compromise our principles in the cause of survival.
This is one such case.

Can we win a war vs North Korea?
Yea. Im pretty sure we can. It wont be pretty however.

Remember, this is nation the size of Georgia with approxiamtly 1 million uniformed troops. They are highly trained and highly motivated. The Military, about 10% of North Koreas population enjoy food on regular basis and many other luxuries, like running water and a roof. Additionally, North Korea has the ability to call up upwards around 2 million in reserve troops.

Keep in mind that this is a regime that is built around 2 parts, 1 part is fanatical devotion to the supreme leader (even more intense to WW2 era Japanese devotion) and the second part has been constant fear of an American Invasion. They have been preparing for 50 years for the Americans to invade. Most of it as tool of control for the population. But the general sentiment is that it is inevitable, and they wait, and look for the Dear Leader to protect them, and they to protect him.

Here is an detailed analysis of North Koreas standing army.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/kpa.htm

In addition, most of the country is a fortress.
This is a picture of North Korean roads.
http://www.tema.ru/travel/choson-2/_MG_0031.jpg

Notice the blocks, they are designed to be dropped as to trap tanks from using the roads.
http://www.tema.ru/travel/choson-2/_MG_0064.jpg

These are on every road within 50km of the border and every major city.

Seriously, Invading North Korea is a really, really really bad idea.

I can't even comprehend how hard it would be to beat a people that is that devoted to there cause and there leader.

I can't fathom oppression on this level. Do they have TVs or radios at all? You have to wonder what they think life is like in other places. The fact that Dong Il enjoys Westernized things like movies surely one of his aides has seen this and has told their starving family about his opulant life style in comparision to the rest of the country.

I guess I have too much hope in human nature to not believe someone could be subverted to this degree. Rather, I think I just don't want to believe it. It blows my mind.

I worry about NK; this is scary.

I can't fathom oppression on this level. Do they have TVs or radios at all? You have to wonder what they think life is like in other places. The fact that Dong Il enjoys Westernized things like movies surely one of his aides has seen this and has told their starving family about his opulant life style in comparision to the rest of the country.

I guess I have too much hope in human nature to not believe someone could be subverted to this degree. Rather, I think I just don't want to believe it. It blows my mind.

I worry about NK; this is scary.



Sure they have radio's (probable not much TV), but when the airways and newspapers are controlled by a single source, and all that they do is preach one message, then over time you get conditioned. For example, if you are 6 years old, and the school system teaches nothing but how Kim suck-dongs father was the "the Great Leader", and how Kim is his wonderful son who provides what little food, and energy you have. Or that he protects you from the evil Westerner's that are conspiring with South Korea to steal your children out of thier beds, you will over time become a devoted follower. Another good example are the German's in WWII. Do you really think that they were all evil? Or did Hitler have the abililty to condition the people into believing that the Jews were lower then dogs and did not deserve to live? Did he condition them to believe that they were superior to everone else? Remember, these were a people that were still smarting from WWI and needed someone to believe in and to lead them back to a margin of self-respect. Unfortuntely he led them beyond that.

The best way of dealing with NK, would be by giving the general population the internet and allow them unfiltered access to the world (unlike China). Then the people could see how they are treated compared to the rest of the world and they would handle Kim for us.

Sure they have radio's (probable not much TV), but when the airways and newspapers are controlled by a single source, and all that they do is preach on message, then over time you get conditioned. For example, if you are 6 years old, and the school system teaches nothing but how Kim suck-dongs father was the "the Great Leader", and how Kim is his wonderful son who provides what little food, and energy you have. Or that he protects you from the evil Westerner's that are conspiring with South Korea to steal your children out of thier beds, you will over time become a devoted follower. Another good example are the German's in WWII. Do you really think that they were all evil? Or did Hitler have the abililty to condition the people into believing that the Jews were lower then dogs and did not deserve to live? Did he condition them to believe that they were superior to everone else? Remember, these were a people that were still smarting from WWI and needed someone to believe in and to lead them back to a margin of self-respect. Unfortuntely he led them beyond that.He is correct.. this works, and works well - religions and governments have been doing it for thousands of years. Restrict access to 'subversive' information, start young, and have people recite the party-line mantras constantly. If anyone rebels/disagrees, call them a traitor/heretic/"helping the enemy"/etc. and punish accordingly.

What the people in North Korea believe Kim Jong Il has done would make Chuck Norris blush.

North Korea's Dear Leader Kim Jong-il never forgets a phone number, a cadre's career or a line of computer code.

According to an article posted Tuesday on a Web site run by North Korea, Kim wakes up early every day for intensive memory training where he sits down and commits to his keen mind items such as the phone numbers of workers in his Stalinist state.

"I remember all computer codes and telephones that workers are using now," Kim was quoted as saying on the Web Site "Uri-Min-jok-kiri" (www.uriminzokkiri.dprkorea.com), or "Among our People."

Kim surprised a group of North Korean officials attending a meeting in 2002 by recalling all their phone numbers "with lightning speed," the site said.

On a day Kim visited a cemetery, he looked around at the tombs and he remembered the achievements, characteristics, tastes and bereaved family members for hundreds of the dead by a quick glance at the names on tombstones, it said.

"All the attendants were surprised at his incredible memory," the site says.

North Korean propaganda is ripe with the amazing achievements of its Dear Leader. The highly controlled state also closely monitors its citizens to make sure they do not speak out against Kim or challenge his rule.

Kim pilots jet fighters, pens operas, produces movies and accomplished a feat unmatched in the annals of professional golf by shooting 11 holes-in-one on the first round he ever played.


He's my new idol, he can remember everybody's phone number, fly jets, make movies and he shot 11 hole-in-ones his first time to golf!!

Air drop in enough wireless laptops with total access and run air cover over that can give them wireless access!!!!

Fandros

And several thousand IT specialists.. Fuck we have enough of em here, and most of them are annoying enough to deserve it.

Instead of Operation Dumbo Drop we could call it Operation Wake the hell Up?

/nods IT folks as well, would we be allowed to grab Earthlink's Indian Customer Service IT folks and add them to the mix?

Fandros

Yea.. and those dudes from AOL "Customer Retention"

LOL @ the AOL dig. So ungodly true though.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82755

Lots of pics... keep scrolling, and many pages...

We all joke about the stupidity of Bush Administration, and while its mostly 50/50 serious/sarcasm, to take military action against Korea would seriously be a mistake.

At this point in time i am glad i am geographically about as far from Korea as possible....

Good link Akip. Guess I epxected to see more people out and about. Everything looks pretty much abandon in most the pictures.

"NK is really, really hard!!"

So it's stick to the good ole US principles, as long as it's not hard.

CNN did a great special on North Korea a few months ago. Was strange to see huge highways with no cars on them.

Shut up Halo.

Im still mad at the British for fucking up the Middle East.

Oh you just HAD to have your cheap oil from Iran.. fucking Imperialists.

You had to know this was coming

US Invades to Stop North Korea Nuclear Proliferation
AP Wire

US forces gained ground in a spectacular landing on enemy beaches in response to the missile tests of North Korea.

The landings consisted of the 1st Marine Division, 5th Infantry Division, 43rd Tank Brigade and units of the 82nd Airborne Division.

In message to North Korean leader Bush tells him "Bring it on, launch everything you have at us."

Bush to give speech to the nation from the oval office 9 PM ET

President Bush will give a speech tonight from the oval office on the US incursion to stop North Korea.

Whitehouse releases statement on the invasion by US forces:

This incursion by US forces is in response to the direct challenge posed by North Korea. We have chosen to take the fight away from the shores of the US and its allies by choosing the ground we are fighting on we will have the operational advantage over the North Koreans.

In a brilliant plan quickly devised by Vice President Cheney, Paul wolfowitz and Donald Rumsfeld the choce to invade Togo has proven very fast that we hit the correct target as we have seen a total collapse of North Korean resistance there, one US commander was quoted "Its like there were never any North Koreans here, we have seen no sign of them, they must have cleared out when the first bombs dropped" We will not leave Togo as long as the North koreans are a threat said Cheney.

Link your source.

Do you really think we would invade Togo to stop north korea? Did you read the whole post?

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82755

Lots of pics... keep scrolling, and many pages...

That is one hell of a travelogue.

Thanks for that link, Akipt.

There is no solution to the North Korean problem.


Sure there is. We just haven't had an administration willing to pursue it, or even acknowledge that after fifty years our "starve them out" policy of encouraging regime change hasn't worked (see also, Cuba). North Korea is sandwiched between two historically belligerent powers that could militarily annihilate it, and have unsuprisingly responded by making it as expensive to do so as they possibly can.

These recent missile launches are a perfect illustrative example of how the ruling party there is acting in an entirely rational, yet abjectly stupid way, to external forces that haven't made sense in decades. As has been very evident in the last century, nationalist hate rapidly and effectively builds an enduring and pervasive social complex. The only two solutions we've yet seen work are a) complete and total destruction of the afflicted state, a la WW2 era Germany and Japan, or b) somebody voluntarily backing down and moving on. (B) takes a lot longer but has worked quite well, notably in Vietnam, which after years of cool antagonism with its former occupiers has been allowed to rejoin the international community much to its economic benefit. Another good example in reverse would be Russia, which largely abandoned its own imperial designs to end the Cold War and revitalize its economy.

"Only Nixon could go to China," and sooner or later we will find the somebody that can go to North Korea, or the Korean that can come to us. It'd be a nice change of pace if we were the good guy in that one.

That was a great link, Akipt... and wow. There are some real eye-openers there.

I suppose my ignorance is showing, again. Maybe that's why I keep coming back to the RL forums, I occasionally learn stuff (if I'm not playing the fool).

As of recent North Korea has never been effectively "starved out". China has always kept them supplied via the railroads.

What an abject tool you are Malse, North Korea's leader is acting in a rational manner? Good lord man, do you spew this baseless bile to everyone or just save that lobotomized portion of your intellect and persona for here?

Fandros

Malse, what the hell? You eat your fucked up idea flavored wheaties this morning or something?

Kim Jong-Il is acting rationally?

Seriously, normally I'm against drug use, but whatever it is you're using to alter your sense of reality that much, it's good to be some quality shit; hook a brother up!

I kind of see what Malse is saying, I just think its coming out wrong.

At any rate, do you think N.K. is acting rationally shooting off shitty missles with no control that actually land 200 MILES from Japan? I don't think its a good idea to launch missles that could potentially land in another country, accidentally or not. If that test missle would of crash landed on the shores of Japan and killed some people. We would be seeing something unfold like nothing before one would bet.

I haven't been much concerned with NK myself... but this is going to the next level:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/06/AR2006070600180.html

TAIPEI (Reuters) - Taiwan plans to test-fire a missile capable of hitting China, alarming the island's main ally, the United States, a cable news network said on Thursday.

NK is really, really hard!!"

So it's stick to the good ole US principles, as long as it's not hard.

__________________
[Haloface Jokerblood]

"We know too well the beastial assault you are making upon the Russian people, to whom our hearts go out in their valiant trouble. We will have no truce or parley with you or the grizley gang who work your wicked will. You do your worst, and we will do our best." - Churchill to Hitler, 1941.


Ya, as we all know, the US backs down from any challenge if it is too hard.. Good thing we did not back down from the most powerful army in the world back in 1775-6.. I mean hell.. a few farmers against the invincible redcoats. Imagine.. Halo.. you are a clown. Go back to drowning your inferiority complex in your beer and shut your ass up.

btw.. I found a better quote for you...



"To have the United States at our side was to me the greatest joy. Now at this very moment I knew the United States was in the war, up to the neck and in to the death. So we had won after all!...Hitler's fate was sealed. Mussolini's fate was sealed. As for the Japanese, they would be ground to powder" -- Winston Churchill



I think it is more fitting

As for Tiawan.. what the hell are they thinking??

Taiwan is the start of the Greater Asian Arms Race.

China is building up its military to epic proportions, Korea is testing missles, Japan is feeling the pressure and starting its rearmament.. Why not Taiwan? They probably have nukes already. I would If I were them. They most certainly have the technical know-how.

There are going to be some very happy arms manufacturers this Christmas..

cut and pasted from CNN, no I can't make this shit up

There are no signs that North Korea is preparing to launch a second long-range Taepodong missile, U.S. officials with access to untelligence reports tell CNN.

untelligence... freudian slip?

they've fixed it now, heh

Since I'm nowhere near an expert in foriegn events, how's Japan's military lookin'?

They have one if that is what you mean, but it is not large by any means. But, why would it, just like the Bahamas, they have the most powerful in the world already... the United States.

Well.. Japan is very interesting. For starters, they could have a ICBM type Nuke, like, tomorrow if they chose to. But they have resisted doing so, openly at least.

As far as their conventional forces, it is all self defense based. They probably have the worlds best Air and Sub defense network. A fly cant intrude on Japanese airspace without they knowing about it.
They have the full gamut of weaponry in that regard, Missile Shield, AWACs, extreme SAM batterys, over 50 mobile radar sites.

interesting read.

In November 2004 November Defense Agency officials established three scenarios of possible attacks by China on Japan as the agency prepared to revamp the national defense strategy. Under the first scenario, China may attack parts of Japan to prevent aid from US forces in Japan in the case of a clash between China and Taiwan . In the second scenario, China might take military action to seize the Senkaku Islands between Taiwan and Japan [which China calls the Diaoyu Islands]. China claims that there is overwhelming evidence to indicate the Diaoyu Islands have been part of Chinese territory since ancient times. Under the third scenario, China might move to secure its interests in the East China Sea. China's oil and gas explorations in the East China Sea are being carried out in what China regards as indisputable coastal waters, the source of wrangling between the two countries over energy and territory in the East China Sea. Tokyo and Beijing dispute the development of gas fields near their maritime boundary.

Since I'm nowhere near an expert in foriegn events, how's Japan's military lookin'?

There are periodic rumblings about amending their constitution, but they are currently still legally self-forbidden from building a military capable of anything but immediate self defense.


At any rate, do you think N.K. is acting rationally shooting off shitty missles with no control that actually land 200 MILES from Japan? I don't think its a good idea to launch missles that could potentially land in another country, accidentally or not.

Superficially, it seems high on the Bad Idea scale, but that's ignoring any perspective from NK itself. KJI and his government are subject to enormous pressure, both internal and external, to be seen as effective. In the same way we get periodic terror alerts and raids on illiterate Haitian immigrants who were entrapped into being Al Qaeda operatives by the FBI, that regime has to be seen as doing whatever "something" is a viable response to immediate pressure. Standing up to the USA is never bad press in many parts of the world.

In practice, the NK missile program won't represent a real threat to anyone for years, possibly decades, and possibly never becaus their economy simply can't support much further military investment. South Korean, Japan, China, and ourselves could all go dollar-for-dollar against them military and win quickly and decisively, and they know it and so do we.

If you want a far more successful, but equally hare-brained idea, JFK spent billions to "prove" we were smarter than the Russians by getting largely impotent missions to the moon. Try explaining that one from a modern perspective.

I thought Japan can't rearm themselves b/c of WW2?

http://www.globalfirepower.com/

pretty good info..

I thought Japan can't rearm themselves b/c of WW2?

I believe that is what Malse is referring to when bringing up a constitutional amendment on the part of Japan.

Also to Malse's point, given the culture of North Korea, how many citizens do you think know the missle was a failure. My guess is zero.

Also to Malse's point, given the culture of North Korea, how many citizens do you think know the missle was a failure. My guess is zero.I was thinking the same thing, that to the average citizen the world may very well be trembling in fear at the demonstration of Democratic People's Republic of Korea's awesome military power.

Aye Malse got his reply in before me. But, there is mention it's self-induced I guess I thought this wasn't the case and they are bound by some other thing (what I don't know) that they couldn't rearm. Perhaps they were at one time but that is over now? I really don't know much about it. Perhaps it is their constitution but I thought the alies had something to do with that as well.

two words....
John Rambo

Aye Malse got his reply in before me. But, there is mention it's self-induced I guess I thought this wasn't the case and they are bound by some other thing (what I don't know) that they couldn't rearm. Perhaps they were at one time but that is over now? I really don't know much about it. Perhaps it is their constitution but I thought the alies had something to do with that as well.

Not really self-induced, we wrote their constitution :):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/macarthur/peopleevents/pandeAMEX102.html

And one morning I came in..., it was ten a.m. and General Whitney [head of the government section] called us into a meeting room. It was too small for all of us. Some of us had to stand because there were about 25 of us. And he said, "You are now a constituent assembly." You can imagine how we felt. "And you will write the Japanese constitution. You will write a draft and it will have to be done in a week." Well, I mean, we were stunned of course. But, on the other hand, when you're in the army and you get an order, you just do it. You just go ahead.

After marathon negotiations in early March, Japanese officials accepted the American draft with only minor revisions.

These threads do make me laugh in that while everyone agrees that going to war with North Korea is an exceptionally bloody and undesireable proposition, I'm a crazy nutjob for even thinking it conceivable to make peace with them as an alternative.

You guys are my anti-drug.

Your idea of peace is giving NK everything they want, including SK, and then being blatantly ignorant enough to think it's a good thing.

Head in the sand bud, not living one day in the real world evah.

Fandros

I honestly think the only thing that KJI wants at this point is sustainment of his regime.

NK existed on Soviet oil subsidies for 40 years... they are looking for a way for the needs they never had to provide for themselves to be provided.

Is this option acceptable? I dont know, I do know its a quandry because the only principled stand leads us into a bloody bloody war. KJI is practicing nothing to lose brinksmanship.. because he has nothing to lose, his regime is dying slowly... so he is forcing the world to make a choice. And if he goes down, he is letting everyone know , it wont be quietly.

FOTA (fear of the alternative)

I agree with L2, on all the recent history programs about KJI lately the same theory seems to be popping up that KJI is just trying ot keep his fathers regime alive.

I honestly think the only thing that KJI wants at this point is sustainment of his regime.

NK existed on Soviet oil subsidies for 40 years... they are looking for a way for the needs they never had to provide for themselves to be provided.

Is this option acceptable? I dont know, I do know its a quandry because the only principled stand leads us into a bloody bloody war. KJI is practicing nothing to lose brinksmanship.. because he has nothing to lose, his regime is dying slowly... so he is forcing the world to make a choice. And if he goes down, he is letting everyone know , it wont be quietly.

FOTA (fear of the alternative)

I must agree with L2 here.

NK has missiles that can hit both Japan and SK; both of these potential targets are large trading partners with many countries both within that sphere and across the globe. With the attention paid to other "threats" by the US and the Euro folks, I am sure NK is both jealous and flat out pissed off that they are not receiving anywhere close to the same level of attention.

Kim is making an all-out effort to take control of the world stage (being he considers himself a director it is appropo) and gain himself and his country the same respect and concessions being offered to other "potential threats". As evidenced by the act of holding the Chinese trains that were bringing in aid, Kim is not exactly a rational "director" and so we can not foresee what his move will be from day to day, making him much more dangerous than any hate spewing leader of a Middle eastern country.

We know very little about the inner machinations of the North Korean regime and people, and it may very well be that he is seeing his hold on the country weakening due to the extended lack of sufficient energy and food supplies needed by his people. This may very well be a last ditch effort to ensure his place as a "Great Leader" among his people and their history.

It is truly unfortunate that this is such a closed society, making it all but impossible to engineer a "covert" action.

'Shut up Halo.
Im still mad at the British for fucking up the Middle East.

Oh you just HAD to have your cheap oil from Iran.. fucking Imperialists.'

- Well it was more that we had to secure the communication lines to India, and dismember the Ottomans, you know, the guys on Germany's side in WW1.
It was either us or the Russians, eh.

Oh, and don't think you guys haven't taken on the British Imperial mantle.
So "fucking imperialists" indeed.

No, YOU shut up!

'Ya, as we all know, the US backs down from any challenge if it is too hard.. Good thing we did not back down from the most powerful army in the world back in 1775-6.. I mean hell.. a few farmers against the invincible redcoats. Imagine.. Halo.. you are a clown. Go back to drowning your inferiority complex in your beer and shut your ass up.'


- Haha. I just saw this little nugget.
You presumptious prick.
Do you know a single thing about history?
Are you so brainwashed or ignorant, or out of sheer stupidity, to believe that the American Army was the instrument of British defeat during the Rebellion?
For one, Britain's army was no where near the most powerful during the eighteenth century, nor would it ever be. Compared to France, the German states or Russia, its army not only was frightfully small in comparison, but more mercanery based than any other. Especially during the American rebellion, you could have probably called it the Hannoverian Army (being a satellite of Britain's until Victoria's acsession, as female's were not allowed to take the throne). But it was not, of course, the worst army around. For starters, who do you think the recruits for the British expeditionary forces were? A standing army? Probably farmers, too. Mostly penniless drunks who were press-ganged in to taking the King's Shilling. Secondly, the majority of battles during the rebellion were British victories.
The overwhelming obstacles to British victory during the rebellion were the united forces of French, Dutch and Spanish naval-power (where the British did excel, unlike on land), the hurrendous distance of supply and transport that Britain had to overcome (a miracle in itself, during the eighteenth century. Unseen before, thousands of troops and supplies over thousands of miles, for so many years). Add to that the fully armed and hostile populace (well, not all, as scholars such as McCullough have shown) and the huge, Boer-war like distances to be covered and campaigned in.

Well, one might say a rebellion and determined break for independence was almost a foregone conclusion from the start.

Don't start on history with me, boy. Or next time i'll actually pick up one of my fucking books. Back in the corner with you, trife.

Just a note,

The Quote Feature is Your Friend

Byl...

Kim is not exactly a rational "director" and so we can not foresee what his move will be from day to day, making him much more dangerous than any hate spewing leader of a Middle eastern country.

If you're referring to the current hate spewing, apocolypse preaching, holocaust denying, wipe-Israel-off-the-map leader of Iran, I fear you are dreadfully wrong my friend. Kim Jong Il with a certified nuke does not make me no where near as worried as that 12th-Imam/I-had-a-halo wackjob trying to obtain a nuke does.

Kim Jong-Il has far more control over his country than Ahmadinajar does over Iran.

Which is just one reason why he doesn't frighten me.

Byl...



If you're referring to the current hate spewing, apocolypse preaching, holocaust denying, wipe-Israel-off-the-map leader of Iran, I fear you are dreadfully wrong my friend. Kim Jong Il with a certified nuke does not make me no where near as worried as that 12th-Imam/I-had-a-halo wackjob trying to obtain a nuke does.

The Iran wacko has a souce of power via the oil reserves, which also provide a cash flow, therefore something to lose.

Thje NK wacko has nothing to lose.

Two different animals.

Remember, Iran still considers itself a REVOLUTIONARY republic. Just like the french or the russians, revolutions seek to export themselves. Iran seeks the nuclear umbrella in order to give itself free regional reign to export, foster and encourage Islamic Revolution.
They seek to create a Persian/Shia superpower stretching from Baghdad to Pakistan. They seem unlikely to use Nuclear weapons under normal circumstances, but will not hesitate to use them in a defensive fashion. The risk of Iran using nukes is low, but the real danger is the triggering of a regional arms race and the proliferation of nuclear arms to unstable regimes.

North Korea is looking at Nuclear weapons as an investment that requires a significant return. They are the ultimate turtle. Any offensive move against them is pretty much impossible, as such the policy of ignoring them was put into place with GWB very early. That hasnt worked out so well as KJI has constantly rattled his cage and is acting in very outward fashions in order to attract attention.
Make no mistake, KJI will escalate this situation to the point where we either backdown and give him what he wants or we are forced into some kind of confrontation with him.
He is counting on us backing down and giving in.

/nods L2

I believe someone said it earlier that his regime was crumbling and infrastructure suffering under wear and tear of internal pressures.

The powers that be in NK have to force a real change soon or face an entropic slide into a cesspool of economic woes.

Fandros

Reports stated that the long range missle was targeting Hawaii. Those SOB'S!

Reports stated that the long range missle was targeting Hawaii. Those SOB'S!

Seems an appropriate target, when you look at any picture from the link Akipt provided and then look at almost any picture of Hawaii in comparison.

Just like the people living in caves wanted to target the seats of power (financial and political), the people living in a chilly, desolate place would want to target that place which is associated with luxury vacations, and so forth.:p

If true they were actually targetting an American state, I wonder what our response will be now?

If it can be proven? We have an absolute right to turn their military installations into smoking rubble.


Fandros

I agree we would be in the right to do that Fandros. I'm just asking what our response actually would be. How concerned are we about the well being of our 37,000 troops over there and Seoul for example?

Can we afford to be in a war in a 3rd area at this time? Obviously if it had hit Hawaii, we should kick the holy hell out of him, and with this if proven we would be in the right to do so as well.

North Korea is such a touchy situation with it sitting against our largest trade partner, attached to one of our biggest allies in east Asia, and not too far across a sea from one of our largest allies in the world. Obviously NK would be a very messy war as well.

What are people's opinion here if were actually able to dispose of Kim Jong Il? Do you think they would unify with SK as a democratic society, or just get another looney like KJI again?

EMP multi pulse the DMZ, cruise missile the hardened sites...then send in Jack Bauer and as back up Chuck Norris!!


Fandros

Yeah I neglected the Chuck Norris approach, that's obviously the way to go.

Yeah I neglected the Chuck Norris approach

And this is why you will never be chosen to lead our forces:p

I was linked this source on another forum I frequent. Reliable? You guys are the experts just thought I would toss this link in here.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885938582&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885938754&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

and another :)



http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060707/3/2mty8.html

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/07/11/koreas.japan/index.html


Of course China thinks Japan is making a big deal out of this...maybe they should talk to their buds in North Korea and have them test all of their missles over Chinese controlled land for now on.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/07/11/koreas.japan/index.html


Of course China thinks Japan is making a big deal out of this...maybe they should talk to their buds in North Korea and have them test all of their missles over Chinese controlled land for now on.

I think we all know that if an NK missile was even remotely aimed at the new dam they have erected that China would turn NK into a large gravel pit. It is sad that that is about the only thing that would get the Chinese to act, but I am sure the Chinese are also thinking of the huge drain on resources the NK people would be if they were conquered.

The reason that the missile failed is Chuck Norris jumped into air from southern California, met the missile over the sea of Japan, and back roundhouse kicked it out of the air.
He then used the momentum the missile imparted to him to alter his trajectory, and allow him to safely land back at his home in sunny southern California.
Hence, the Chuck Norris option has all ready been placed into effect, you dweebs.

Remember kids!

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2161615http://www.pbase.com/image/63248503/original.jpg

The Halo is a nice touch.
"long live the great jughead"?

lol Sixee, that is what that looks like it says doesn't it.

He looks kind of chunky for an Asian. Maybe he likes McDonalds while he watches those western movies he adores.

that or he's just eating all the rations that should be going to people in his country.

What I like most about the picture, in a close second to the gentlemen "raising the roof" in the back, is that the view out the window is the sort of mountain retreat you'd expect from a Bond villian.

"No Mr Bond, I expect you to DIE!"

Where's Chuck Norris in that picture, I wonder?

He is also about a foot taller than he is in real life.... or they are all 4'11'' ......

Perhaps they are all congratulating him on his 11 hole in ones

LOL I didn't notice how he was taller until you said something Bise. I want to be a dictator and have everyone worship me :(

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0453535/bio states that he's 5'3". I saw anotehr source that lists his height at 5'2," but that he tends to wear lifts in his shoes. Those are some big lifts to make him that much taller than everyone else, or everyone in the room with him is an oompa loompa.

Oh, I know where Chuck is.....
He's about to explode outwards from the "Glorious Leader's" <tm> insides.
This explains the chunkiness that Fild noted, and his increased height...