I was wondering what people thought about the whole Muslim center drama, and also what you all think about Obama's response!?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/us/politics/14obama.html

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/08/13/obama.islamic.center.support/index.html

Manufactured controversy that he was an idiot for even acknowledging.

As for the Muslim Culture Center/Mosque: Everyone has a right to worship God/Invisible Sky Elfs/FSM/etc etc in their manner of choosing (within certain limits, Manson anyone?)

I don't know that it's in particularly good taste their chosen location but if they have the means to build it, it looks like it will certainly be better than an abandoned building.

As for El Presidente: He got trolled, hard and he bought into it hook line and sinker. And it's going to bite him in the ass for a couple reason. First with the Far Right nutters they're going to use it as prove that he's in love with Islam and further proof he's the Anti-Christ. Second with the Far left, they're going to say look see he's totally inexperienced we shoulda put Billary in... Either way a lot of us on the fence so to speak are finding it harder and harder to see him ever doing anything to warrant a vote the second time around.

With elections coming up in November I kind of wonder if he's trying to sabotage his fellow Dems so that he can blame everything going further to pot when he runs for re-election.

What I find most interesting is that he said he respected their right (which is a Constitutional guarantee for all us American folks) to build a place of worship on private property.

He did not say he respected the decision to do so.

Gosh, how surprising to see the talking media heads get that twisted in their race for spin ratings.


Like has been said tho', he showed his inexperience by making any comment at all on the issue.

And, this is another item showcasing the alleged 'Republican' disdain for the Constitution they keep screaming about upholding, and wanting to rewrite at the same time. (I say 'alleged' because I have yet to see proof that most of these politicians are, in fact, Republican.)

The typical GOP talking points outlets are drumming up this fake controversy to divert attention from the fact that the GOP just blocked the 9/11 early responders bill. They should be getting skewered for that, but everyone's busy arguing about this wedge issue instead.

The Mosque is correct legally, constitutionally etc.

It is also very poor taste. If it gets built, does anyone see it having a warm welcome to the neighborhood?

Enough is enough already. There are more important things that need to be addressed by government other than penny-ante bullshit like this Mosque, and really, as Jon Stewart said on one of the few times I have caught "The Daily Show", it doesn't matter what Obama does or says. He could keep his mouth shut and get lynched or open it and get lynched. Do nothing and be accused of being unsympathetic or do something and be accused of going about it all wrong. Oh well. After November our government grinds to a halt once again for another 2 years.

I've been following the issue with conservatives on other forums, and the argument has reached disgusting levels. It's amazing the ends that some people will go to in an attempt to justify violating legal rights. It may have started with talking heads, but it's spread among the general populace. My liberal bias is showing, but most of the opposition to the mosque seems to betraying a lack of ability to separate Islam from terrorists. The most amusing/disturbing aspect of the argument is the claim from the ACLJ and others that the building is somehow 'sacred' based on wreckage from an airplane.

It is, on the other hand, fun to be a liberal on conservative forums when you're the one defending the Constitution.

Take a look at this and tell me it's not time to thin the herd in this country:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hwFYAYB-jTz3YBbh1QJsbf52MViw

It's simply unbelievable the level of utter stupidity in this country and, as much as I hate to say this, it appears to be highly concentrated the more Right or Left a person is.

As others have said and I concur, the Muslim center isn't an issue at all. They have every right guaranteed under the constitution to build it wherever they want to (assuming they legally own the property and follow all legal requirements for building).

Build it, and they will come!!!

These idiots need to realize, if they deny the rights of one religion, then all religions will suffer down the road.
All those Abortion/gay bar bombers and Dr killers, could be used as an excuse to block christian churches from being built in any town or city, by lumping there whole religion together with the few violent extremists, that every religion happens to have.

Just when you thought these right wing conservative tea bagger republicans or what ever the hell they want to call themselves (they sure arnt your daddys conservative), have reached the bottom level of stupidity, they some how manage to find a whole new bottom level.

They act like they worship the constitution, yet when they find an issue that the constitution protects and they dont like, they scream to have it changed to suit there petty needs. One day its the 14th amendment, next day there circling the 1st amendment like rabid sharks.
Now that i think about it, maybe its just the 2nd amendment they enshrine and worship and the rest is just fat around the edges that needs to be trimmed off.

They own the building and have every legal right to put their community center into it, whether or not it includes yet one more Manhattan mosque in it or not. Legally, there's no question. The notion that this is somehow in poor taste is equally ridiculous. Just how many NYC blocks does this "hallowed ground" cover? Are the extant strip clubs in the area respectful to the honored dead while a religious institution is not? Muslim governmental employees attend to their daily worship in the Pentagon, also struck by the 9/11 perps; does that need to come to a halt?

It's the faux outrage of the moment, that sadly seems to have convinced a significant number of Americans. The imam was our ambassador to the Islamic world during the Bush years, trying to show Muslims abroad the openness of the US to all faiths. Ironic that the far right, Gingriches, and Palins should try so hard to prove him wrong. I do wish Bush would step forward and speak to this.

They own the building and have every legal right to put their community center into it, whether or not it includes yet one more Manhattan mosque in it or not. Legally, there's no question.

Agreed.

The notion that this is somehow in poor taste is equally ridiculous. Just how many NYC blocks does this "hallowed ground" cover?

Here is where we disagree. The building that previously occupied the site is close enough that it was "destroyed" by a chunk of landing gear from the attack and is therefore considered part of the 9/11 destruction. The imam pushing for this particular site allegedly has been taped defending Bin Laden's violence, advocating the elimination of Israel in its entirety, and praising the same Wahabism that gave birth to Al Qaeda in the first place. He may have been Bush's "ambassador", but we all know Bush never bungled political appointments, right? To be fair, I've not yet heard these alleged tapes, but if they truly exist I would definitely have to wonder at the imam's motivations for insisting on this particular site.

A couple of less than devout Muslims of my acquaintance are telling me the whole point of the "cultural center" is to celebrate 9/11 as a victory of Islam over western ideals, at least according to the scuttlebutt in the local mosques here in Denver. That may or may not be the actual intention of the developers, but it is certainly being perceived as such amongst a segment of the Muslim American population. Maybe Jedd can shed more light on what he's heard, though I'm guessing he doesn't run in the same circles as the Sunnis I know.

Are the extant strip clubs in the area respectful to the honored dead while a religious institution is not? Muslim governmental employees attend to their daily worship in the Pentagon, also struck by the 9/11 perps; does that need to come to a halt?

Well, the perps of 9/11 were not strippers to the best of my knowledge, so there is no association made by the friends and families of the victims to cause grief. There is an association made, rightly or wrongly, with militant Islam and those that support violence against the west. Many people who sympathize with Al Qaeda and its agenda will probably congregate at the proposed cultural center and use it to propagandize its location as a victory for Al Qaeda. As to the Pentagon, Muslim servicemen and employees were praying there before 9/11 and are actively serving the country. Continuing to do so there does not have the same emotional impact as a new site built upon the ruin.

In short, I agree the mosque/cultural center/whatever has every legal right to locate there. I do, however, understand the sentiment of those who oppose its location there and would not dismiss their opinions out of hand as being mere right wing nonsense. I think that if it is built (somehow), the New York Police Dept. that covers lower Manhattan is going to have a constant drain on its finances as it tries to protect the center's visitors and prevent vandalism and/or arson attempts on the new building.

You're gonna need to provide proof for all of the hilarious stuff you just posted, since most of it is just shit people made up and Fox News then cited as fact.

Agreed.



Here is where we disagree. The building that previously occupied the site is close enough that it was "destroyed" by a chunk of landing gear from the attack and is therefore considered part of the 9/11 destruction. The imam pushing for this particular site allegedly has been taped defending Bin Laden's violence, advocating the elimination of Israel in its entirety, and praising the same Wahabism that gave birth to Al Qaeda in the first place. He may have been Bush's "ambassador", but we all know Bush never bungled political appointments, right? To be fair, I've not yet heard these alleged tapes, but if they truly exist I would definitely have to wonder at the imam's motivations for insisting on this particular site.

A couple of less than devout Muslims of my acquaintance are telling me the whole point of the "cultural center" is to celebrate 9/11 as a victory of Islam over western ideals, at least according to the scuttlebutt in the local mosques here in Denver. That may or may not be the actual intention of the developers, but it is certainly being perceived as such amongst a segment of the Muslim American population. Maybe Jedd can shed more light on what he's heard, though I'm guessing he doesn't run in the same circles as the Sunnis I know.



Well, the perps of 9/11 were not strippers to the best of my knowledge, so there is no association made by the friends and families of the victims to cause grief. There is an association made, rightly or wrongly, with militant Islam and those that support violence against the west. Many people who sympathize with Al Qaeda and its agenda will probably congregate at the proposed cultural center and use it to propagandize its location as a victory for Al Qaeda. As to the Pentagon, Muslim servicemen and employees were praying there before 9/11 and are actively serving the country. Continuing to do so there does not have the same emotional impact as a new site built upon the ruin.

In short, I agree the mosque/cultural center/whatever has every legal right to locate there. I do, however, understand the sentiment of those who oppose its location there and would not dismiss their opinions out of hand as being mere right wing nonsense. I think that if it is built (somehow), the New York Police Dept. that covers lower Manhattan is going to have a constant drain on its finances as it tries to protect the center's visitors and prevent vandalism and/or arson attempts on the new building.

What a bunch of Bullshit!!

So the muslims you know told you something and you based 90% of your decision on that, and the other 10% on some rumor someone told you about the imam?

Way to Fandros up a thread!

You're gonna need to provide proof for all of the hilarious stuff you just posted, since most of it is just shit people made up and Fox News then cited as fact.

I'll see what I can dig up, though you should be aware that I don't watch Fox News. Who knows, maybe you are right. I'm not above doing my own research though and I'll let you know what I find out.

What a bunch of Bullshit!!

So the muslims you know told you something and you based 90% of your decision on that, and the other 10% on some rumor someone told you about the imam?

Way to Fandros up a thread!

We'll see. I imagine there will be a lot of poking and prodding into the imam's past over the next few weeks. If nothing comes up, I'm more than happy to admit to being wrong. As to what my friends told me, I have to ask myself why would they lie about that?

Edit. As to what my friends heard locally, they are not the only Muslims who are voicing that particular notion. Here is an article in the Christian Science Monitor (admittedly not one of my usual sources) that refers to interviews with a number of foreign Muslim correspondents. As you might expect, they come down on both sides of the argument.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2010/0818/Ground-Zero-mosque-debate-swirls-in-world-capitals

Don't underestimate the right-wingers and the attempts to justify action against the mosque.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/08/23/putting-the-ground-zero-mosque-in-perspective/

Jon Stewart has been destroying them lately. It was funny Friday, but this is great: http://tv.gawker.com/5620154/jon-stewart-fox-news-omits-facts-to-further-its-fear+driven-narrative

Also, Ron Paul, ya'll: http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-08-20/ron-paul-sunshine-patriots-stop-your-demagogy-about-the-nyc-mosque/

Like I've said before though, if you're buying into either side of this "controversy" now, they're making a tool of you.

http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/mylifeisnotveryinteresting/ZQ86LOH9EB0XXvGDKYDSBiaMhAqTCpSKcukUA7QNqNOgvFpNlo LKvvEWA9tY/mosque.png.scaled.1000.jpg

I may disagree with Ron Paul on a number of things, but I have to applaud him on this.

That chart is rather interesting too!

Like I've said before though, if you're buying into either side of this "controversy" now, they're making a tool of you.

So, how is this not a controversy? Would you prefer that we sit back and let the vocal players fight it out? Let the ACLJ complete it's suit and win? Passively let emotions override law?

You might not like that it's a debate, but once the talking heads picked it up, it became a controversy. Maybe it was manufactured out of nothing, but it's real now. It might seem cut and dry to you, and to most of us on this board, but the right is up in arms over it, and the dems are responding (because of primaries/November?) and appear to be split over the issue.

The talking heads can't make you buy into this stuff unless you choose to participate. It's not as if a consensus of paid actors on news shows will change the law, nor will a bunch of windbag voice actors on talk radio.

What do you think you could possibly stand to gain from arguing with someone polarized enough to buy into that circus? You aren't going to change their mind (Left or Right). There's no possible way that they'll believe you more than Sean Hannity and their email forwards anyway, as depressing as that may be.

Change the subject to something with less current baggage. Ask them what they think about that 9/11 first responder's bill, since they're so concerned about the victims of 9/11. Then, ask them if they know that not even all of the 15 Republican co-sponsors ended up voting for it and the rest of the Republicans defeated it.

I've noticed you using this argument a couple of times, that something being discussed in the news is a non-issue. That amounts to burying our heads in the sand and hoping problems just go away. In the meantime, those who are skilled at polarizing the fringes and playing on emotions will keep marching on with their agenda. I'm not pretending that little ol' me has an actual say, but if everyone follows your method, the fringe wins. I'm not content to see these Muslims get bullied out of that building.

That's because these wedge issues-du-jour often are non-issues. The fringes were already polarized. If you think you're going to convince them that Sean Hannity is wrong about the mosque, you should also try to change their mind about abortion and then go negotiate peace between Israel and Palestine.

Meanwhile, it's just not a real issue. The Republicans could take every contested seat in November and they still won't have any real impact on whether or not Park51 goes up or not.

Why waste your time getting played by a bunch windbags and drama queens, when it makes no difference in the end?

What really makes me angry about "issues" like this one, is they detract so much from things that should be addressed. Like fucking Jobs. Who gives a Flying Fuck about a mosque when 10-20% of Americans can't afford to feed their families. Shit is going to get real when that final extension of unemployment happens. What about the rest of the economy that seems ready to implode?

I want to pull the ears off of just about every Cable News jockey and beat them to death because all they can focus on is the "Issues" and not a damn thing about what matters.

What really makes me angry about "issues" like this one, is they detract so much from things that should be addressed. Like fucking Jobs. Who gives a Flying Fuck about a mosque when 10-20% of Americans can't afford to feed their families. Shit is going to get real when that final extension of unemployment happens. What about the rest of the economy that seems ready to implode?

I want to pull the ears off of just about every Cable News jockey and beat them to death because all they can focus on is the "Issues" and not a damn thing about what matters.


I agree with you wholeheartedly but sadly until the rest of America stops eating the bull it will continue :(

Most definitely, this issue is a sham. Its nothing but drumming up fear and hate before an election. They know they cant stop them from building it under the law and the constitution, but now im hearing these morons are threatening to ruin any construction company that tries to help build it.
All those protesting people, bashing muslims, are falling right into the hands of the terrorists, which im sure are loving it. It gives them the proof that america really is at war with Islam, and makes for a good recruitment tool.


I watched that Daily Show thing, Jon Stewart really crushed Fox news over it. He gave them a thrashing, pointing out that the same saudi prince who gave money to this muslim center is the 2nd largest share holder in Fox news corp.
God i love the Daily show and Steven Colbert.

Its nothing but drumming up fear and hate before an election.

The most unfortunate thing is that it will work brilliantly.

And it is starting to spread...

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/fire-at-tennessee-mosque-site-has-islamic-groups-worried/19613990
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-08-30-tennessee-mosque-fire_N.htm

HAHA

"They are not a religion," Bob Shelton, a 76-year-old retiree from the area, told the AP. "They are a political, militaristic group."



and the cristian coalition is......