http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1208/16258.html

wow.

I had so many reservations going into this presidential campaign year - but I don't think I have ever been as excited about a president as I am now. I am anxious to see how the next 4+ years pan out.

If we have to have the government screwing with the economy, I support us actually getting jobs and something tangible out of the money spent.

i like this. Curious what the more REpublican people say? Fandros, Osi?

The Public Works project has been kicked around here before, and it should be an interesting debate between the union construction folks and the Obama administration.

* will these jobs working on upgrading buildings and schools and roads and bridges require union employees, or are they open to anyone to apply for?

* how will Obama reconcile the need to put people back to work with the need to not alienate those who supported his candidacy?

* will there be a decent wage and benefits package for these jobs, and any on the job training that will allow these people who are able to get hired to continue in the field on a long-term basis?

Not to be negative. I think over its all great. I was for pushing for the FDR plan months ago. Its even kind of strange to walk around the barracks of the old work camps and see the pictures of the people who worked there to build the dams and highways.

I guess Im just negative on goverement, People scream about haliburton, but sounds like a new hali "fill in the blank" to me.

The process for giving these contracts jobs would require alot of work. do we give them to the Spanish who are building the trans texas corridor. Modernise the bridges and highways so they can be tolled ? The last two have been happening alot here in Texas.

The process for getting a conract for a goverment agency is a nightmare of paperwork and most of the money is not paid until the end or months after. Ive worked on school contracts for windows. You have to have deep bank roll to front the job but anyway.

I think over all its a step in the right direction. Can put all those kids in the south side of Chicago on a bus to montana to build a highway alongside the pipeline.

Alot of the education improcements should already be occuring or have been. I pay school taxes to the Robin Hood fund. Maybe Nydia can give her percpective of how that system has worked.

I got the impression that he wasn't talking about contracting it out.

So more state jobs and school jobs. The schools arent going to building there own heating and cooling system, they can hire more people to change out light bulbs. Which even goverment contracts out. But thats just picking hairs.

Be it a new version of the job core who I felt was more grass root ( fdr ) and what he was aiming at. But the goverment buying new 1200 toilets and 300 wrenches to install them in buildings. Hey its goverment spending at its finest. Send people to jail for it then I wont be so skeptical.

Reminds me of a Who song.

There's a big difference between an employee installing purchased materials and monolithic contracts being awarded ala Halliburton.

Contracting out to Cintra for road work vs. expanding the DOT is similar.

I'm generally a fan of privatization, but I think that we've learned that our government is either unable or unwilling to award contracts competently and/or with a shred of integrity.

Greyif you'd read the threads instead of singling me out you'd know I suggested a TVA type plan weeks ago.

I was not singling you out in a negative manner sir. Just wanted your input, not intended to be insulting or inflammatory.

i like this. Curious what the more REpublican people say? Fandros, Osi?

Actually I may have to change my Sig.. With Paul Volcker the brains behind Reaganomics and Gates in the cab this could be a slight right center administration. I still do not believe for a second Obama is an actual American and is more likely Kenyan, but that being said the next 4 years wont be boring. I am glad I am vested and it would actually take a decision by my states legislature for me to get laid off from my job, but many others will be less fortunate.

I still do not believe for a second Obama is an actual American and is more likely Kenyan

What part of Africa is your heritage?

ubbuu mombooo click click moobo..


It would probably have to go way way...way back. Like in excess of 500 years. I have had my genealogy traced back as far as 1680's and all very English. Sorry Halo.

ubbuu mombooo click click moobo..


It would probably have to go way way...way back. Like in excess of 500 years. I have had my genealogy traced back as far as 1680's and all very English. Sorry Halo.


Hey, now, Osg....we have seen some of the folks that Taino and Halo were seen running around with in EQ, so I am sure you would be welcomed with open arms. :p

Just curious have you had your DNA profiled for ethnic background Osi? Its $200, it would be proof you are in the all-white club. Also, my mother is cuban born so am i unAmerican?

No, but if you have a good picadillo recipe please share!!!!

Just curious have you had your DNA profiled for ethnic background Osi? Its $200, it would be proof you are in the all-white club. Also, my mother is cuban born so am i unAmerican?

If you were born on US soil then yes. I don't believe Obama was born in Hawaii.

Osg is usually batshit crazy, but the citizenship issue is actually something that they should address fully. If it's not an issue, it's easy enough to clear up in a few minutes, right?

Exactly.

Seeing how his mom met his dad in America, and his mom didn't travel to Kenya, one could deduce that you guys are nuts for questioning his birth certificate.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

and

http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

are proof enough for me. If people question where Obama was born after seeing his Birth Certificate, than those same people can't prove themselves to be citizens either. Show us your Birth Certificate Osi, of course that still won't prove anything! If you think Obama forged his, I can just as easily think that yours is forged too.

Osg is usually batshit crazy, but the citizenship issue is actually something that they should address fully. If it's not an issue, it's easy enough to clear up in a few minutes, right?


Hell Osg isn't even a US citizen. As far as Obama, it has been cleared up, what more should the guy do or can he do beside produce a birth certificate and newspaper announcements of his birth, it works for everyone else. You do realize that this is a guy who was a community organizer and..

lol..it's not even worth wasting ones breath on.

Prove anyone is a US citizen...why is there a question of Obama...I know and please don't deny it..his name and his race. That bothers you, deep down inside you can't deal with it.

His name and race? Quoting me? Are you new here or have you just lost your mind?

http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

That thing looks worse than a fake report card I made on my C64 20 years ago.

That thing looks worse than a fake report card I made on my C64 20 years ago.

Of course, he was born more than 20 years ago...

I can tell you that my birth certificate from 1976 looks 'interesting.'

Mine too. It doesn't look fake like that one though. It also has a seal.

Combine that with his citizenship in Indonesia (doesn't allow dual citizenship), as Barry Soetoro, and I'm left a bit confused.

Any information you find about it is majorly biased one way or the other, so it's hard to get a feel for what's what. I haven't seen anything that left me particularly decided on it though.

How is a birth certificate and a newspaper announcement biased?

That's not an original document from the 60's, BTW. Note the laser printer form reorder number. Also note the faint 2007...

Check out this actual birth certificate from Hawaii. That looks a lot more like my original.

http://snarkybytes.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/hawaii-birth-certificate-1963.jpg

This birth certificate this is beyond the stupidest thing ever. You really think that the states of Illinois and Hawaii, the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, the Secret Service, and the US Congress are completely bereft of any sort of investigators that might notice one of the most easily detected frauds available? One that would completely derail a presidential election bid from before day 1; no recount, no argument, just over and done?

The reactionary fear apparatus isn't known for anything resembling critical thought, but this takes the absurdity to a whole new level. You would be better off positing that Obama was actually from Andromeda secretly inhabiting a human body, it has less evidence against it.

His name and race? Quoting me? Are you new here or have you just lost your mind?

LOL..yeah you racist... I apologize...I meant that part of my response to Osg, I should have been more clear.

This birth certificate this is beyond the stupidest thing ever. You really think that the states of Illinois and Hawaii, the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, the Secret Service, and the US Congress are completely bereft of any sort of investigators that might notice one of the most easily detected frauds available? One that would completely derail a presidential election bid from before day 1; no recount, no argument, just over and done?

The reactionary fear apparatus isn't known for anything resembling critical thought, but this takes the absurdity to a whole new level. You would be better off positing that Obama was actually from Andromeda secretly inhabiting a human body, it has less evidence against it.


LOL, an excellent rebuttal to the silliness here!

This birth certificate this is beyond the stupidest thing ever. You really think that the states of Illinois and Hawaii, the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, the Secret Service, and the US Congress are completely bereft of any sort of investigators that might notice one of the most easily detected frauds available? One that would completely derail a presidential election bid from before day 1; no recount, no argument, just over and done?

The reactionary fear apparatus isn't known for anything resembling critical thought, but this takes the absurdity to a whole new level. You would be better off positing that Obama was actually from Andromeda secretly inhabiting a human body, it has less evidence against it.

Circumstantial. No different than the arguments for his being a Muslim (as if that's a bad thing).

I'd like to see more about #33.

He has to go through a crazy background check for his clearence. If there was inconsistancies they would of flagged it, fuck Clinton, McCain and about 10 other opponents who ran against him would of brought it up as fact.

I really cant beleive that this is even being argued on the forums. We have all argued about some stupid shit, but this is arguing just for the sake of it at this point.

At this point Sanchek using your logic, you are a Midget Russian national with dual citizenship in Egypt. Oh, you are also female, and you're only accomplishment in life at this point is you made code that when someone mispells your name it comes up as ********. Prove these statements wrong.

If I'd traveled to a Russian Midget brothel on an Egyptian passport, you might be onto something there.

Phillip J Berg is also a 9/11 truther.

http://www.t-shirthumor.com/Merchant2/graphics/fullsize/iwtb_lg2.gif

So, this is "change" and "transparency", huh? Feels like politics as usual.

Phillip J Berg is also a 9/11 truther.

He's also a lifelong Democrat, not someone bitter that McCain didn't win.

He's also a lifelong Democrat, not someone bitter that McCain didn't win.


He's also a mental patient that suffers from delusional dis-orders.

And lets not forget that he was an ardent supporter of Hillary Clinton and seems to have had quite a large financial investment in her winning the Presidency. And BTW, I'm suing you because your name on here is Sanchek and I find that I am suing you just because I can.

Wasn't Berg the guy that tried to "prove" Bob Dole wasn't a US Citizen as well?

He has to go through a crazy background check for his clearence. If there was inconsistancies they would of flagged it, fuck Clinton, McCain and about 10 other opponents who ran against him would of brought it up as fact.

I really cant beleive that this is even being argued on the forums. We have all argued about some stupid shit, but this is arguing just for the sake of it at this point.

At this point Sanchek using your logic, you are a Midget Russian national with dual citizenship in Egypt. Oh, you are also female, and you're only accomplishment in life at this point is you made code that when someone mispells your name it comes up as ********. Prove these statements wrong.

And lets not forget that he was an ardent supporter of Hillary Clinton and seems to have had quite a large financial investment in her winning the Presidency. And BTW, I'm suing you because your name on here is Sanchek and I find that I am suing you just because I can.

The defensive hyperbole just looks incriminating.

The lawsuit detailed a few reasonable things that could easily be done to prove it definitively. An administration embracing change and transparency should be happy to have this opportunity to deliver on the promises.

The lawsuit detailed a few reasonable things that could easily be done to prove it definitively. An administration embracing change and transparency should be happy to have this opportunity to deliver on the promises.

On the other hand, the worst thing you can do to fanatical lunatics is give them the credence of taking them seriously.

If you have nothing to hide, taking them seriously enough to shut them down cold is one of the best things you can do. Obama did this several times during the campaign, in response to far more absurd claims.

Why not just put an end to this, when he could so easily?

There is something to be said for not running down and kowtowing everytime some nutball throws something out.

Its always going to be something.

Why doesnt Obama answer the questions? Im pretty sure because he doesnt give a shit. So the Birth Certificate that Hawaii released wasnt to their liking? Ok. Whatever.

Its been one thing after another.

Muslim
Black Nationalist
Gay Coke Snorter
Manchurian Candidate
Marxist
Terrorist paller arounder

Seriously... Don't be shocked that Obama and the people around him have a blasé attitude about it. Same shit, different day.

And he doesnt have to shut them down. Reality will do that for him, and it doesnt waste his time, energy and he doesnt give the story any momentum by acknowledging it.

Again, it's sad to see a legitimate question met with stonewalling, hyperbole, and a politics as usual attitude from the "change" camp.

"Gay Coke Snorter"? And you're calling Berg a nutball?

This is an excellent opportunity for Obama to walk the walk he's been talking about transparency, and he's blowing it.

Again, it's sad to see a legitimate question met with stonewalling, hyperbole, and a politics as usual attitude from the "change" camp.

"Gay Coke Snorter"? And you're calling Berg a nutball?

This is an excellent opportunity for Obama to walk the walk he's been talking about transparency, and he's blowing it.


Sanchek, come on. You're smarter and wiser than this.

Oh, and L2 left out the best one yet. He went to Hawaii to kill his grandmother so women would feel sympathetic to him and then vote for him. I really heard that from someone.

"Gay Coke Snorter"? And you're calling Berg a nutball?

You don't remember that? The dude that said he had sex with Obama in the back of his Limo. Obama didnt address that either. Stonewalling?

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/larrysinclair/index?tab=articles

Besides there is no upside in engaging in this. It is nonsense.

The only reason its even in the new is that Clarence Thomas decide to get a little "Fuck You" into Obama for calling Thomas unqualified for the SC.

Look, the state of Hawaii produced, and certified, a short form birth certificate, that would be enough for any court in the United States.

10/10 if your just trolling us btw.

That birth certificate is weak. No seal? That wouldn't even be accepted at the DMV.

The Obama camp has spent more time actively filing to block the couple lawsuits that have arisen over this than it would have taken to simply provide the requested documentation. Again, what happened to all that transparency talk from a month ago?

You are wrong San, that Short Form Birth Certificate would be accepted Prima Facie in any court of law.

Transparency refers to governing.

I don't think this qualifies. Transparency doesnt mean "ill bend over backwards for every frivolous lawsuit and baseless accusation". The burden of Evidence is on Berg and Keyes, remember we have that in the US. This whole "Produce the documents and Ill stop" is BS. Produce YOUR evidence.

Besides. Hello? There is was presidential campaign going on when Obama filed the motions to block discovery. It was an obvious attempt at starting another whisper campaign in order to try to invent some lame October Surprise.

Huh? Leaving it unanswered and hiding behind lawyers was unquestionably more likely to have negative influence on swing voters. He could have easily sent those same lawyers to end it definitively.

If you have nothing to hide, you should relish an opportunity to dispel those sort of rumors.

Huh? Leaving it unanswered and hiding behind lawyers was unquestionably more likely to have negative influence on swing voters. He could have easily sent those same lawyers to end it definitively.

If you have nothing to hide, you should relish an opportunity to dispel those sort of rumors.

Seriously. You are just trolling.

I KNOW you don't feel this way or you wouldn't harp over all the things going on at the airports, through the Patriot Act, the Wiretapping, etc.

If you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't worry about all those things either...

I absolutely do feel this way when we're talking about the man applying for the job of Commander in Chief. It's not as if Berg barges into random Kenyan dudes' houses, questioning their citizenship.

For that matter, someone applying to any job is open to quite a bit of scrutiny. I have no problem with that. Not many companies that require that sort of ID would hire you with a shoddy looking, unsigned, unsealed birth certificate reprint like the one linked above.

If you think that's the same as the government violating our 4th Amendment, you're the one trolling here...

This guy is probably nothing more than a purposeful distraction to keep our minds off of things like the banks fucking us and the Taliban now hold 72% of Afghanistan.

Just out of curiosity, San, what do you suppose would be the "justified crusade" you would be waging or following against McCain had he been the winner?

I see this entire pitiful exercise in "poo-flinging" the same as how I view the talking heads on MSNBC who are frothing at the mouth that Obama is having the audacity to select people they are not fully supportive of for his cabinet.

It gives them, and you, something to blather about, regardless of merit.


Personally, I will accept the vetting done by the Democratic Party, Obama's political opponents, the Secret Service and the NSA and FBI, and not waste my time on foolishness. And to the talking heads that are wringing their hands that they might have been fooled by Obama's pledge of change, based on his cabinet selections, I will merely say wait until the man is inaugerated to whine about how he does his job as President.

Huh? Leaving it unanswered and hiding behind lawyers was unquestionably more likely to have negative influence on swing voters. He could have easily sent those same lawyers to end it definitively.

If you have nothing to hide, you should relish an opportunity to dispel those sort of rumors.

End it decisively?

Like 9/11 Theories have been ended decisively? There is no end for these people.... it just goes on and on and on.

End it decisively?

Like 9/11 Theories have been ended decisively? There is no end for these people.... it just goes on and on and on.

Why are you so intent on equating this with something it is not?

There's no conspiracy theory here. Berg wants three documents, which Obama should possess if he's legit. He produces them, then end of story.

It's not open ended. I don't see how your hyperbole and 9/11 strawman can be construed as anything other than flagrant intellectual dishonesty. Why? Do you believe there's something to hide?

Why are you so defensive about this?

Why are you so intent on equating this with something it is not?

There's no conspiracy theory here. Berg wants three documents, which Obama should possess if he's legit. He produces them, then end of story.

It's not open ended. I don't see how your hyperbole and 9/11 strawman can be construed as anything other than flagrant intellectual dishonesty. Why? Do you believe there's something to hide?

Why are you so defensive about this?

You know what... If you can't accept the state of Hawaii calling it legit, then you are never going to be convinced.

Just out of curiosity, San, what do you suppose would be the "justified crusade" you would be waging or following against McCain had he been the winner?

In case you're unaware, Berg and I aren't the same person. His crusade is not mine.

However, watching the fervent believers get worked up in such a defensive froth is definitely suspicious. I see no harm in Obama being required to provide the same level of identification that any of us would have to for a minimum wage job.

You know what... If you can't accept the state of Hawaii calling it legit, then you are never going to be convinced.

Did you not read what you quoted?

Did you not read what you quoted?

I read it just fine, bottom line is you would NEVER ask for someone else to provide anything more then a Birth Certificate in which the state which issued it accepts it as legit. Yet you bend over backwards to deny he has proven he is a citizen.

Three things that anyone in his position should possess. Such a simple thing, yet so much misdirection and stonewalling abounds...

Why are you so intent on equating this with something it is not?

There's no conspiracy theory here. Berg wants three documents, which Obama should possess if he's legit. He produces them, then end of story.

It's not open ended. I don't see how your hyperbole and 9/11 strawman can be construed as anything other than flagrant intellectual dishonesty. Why? Do you believe there's something to hide?

Why are you so defensive about this?

Why should Obama do anything Berg asks? Who is Berg to set himself as the arbiter of anything?

Its not hyperbole or strawmen. Berg filed lawsuits against the government for trying to cover up 9/11. So, crazy then, not crazy now? The guy has a track record for batshit fruitcakery.

If a court of law or any entity with a shred of credibility asked Obama to produce the documents, Im pretty sure he would. No such entity has asked.
Berg is a fucking nutcase. He has zero credibility and Obama doing anything other than shunning him gives this guy way more than he has deserved.

Let me ask this. What would the response have been if Micheal Moore started demanding John McCains military records?
It would have been a very appropriate "Go fuck yourself".

Well, in McCain's defense, Moore probably would have cut and pasted the documents to make it look like McMain's True Name is Bezzelbub, and his birthplace is the Lake of Fire....

People did make a big deal about McCain's health records and Cindy's tax filings.

That was information we needed from McCain, due to his particular situation. This is information we need from Obama, due to his.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081209/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_obama

So there IS a raised seal on his birth certificate AND there is a newspaper announcement from when he was born. Still not enough for you?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081209/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_obama

So there IS a raised seal on his birth certificate AND there is a newspaper announcement from when he was born. Still not enough for you?


Nope.

http://www.obamacrimes.com/




All he has to do is produce it.. very simple.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081209/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_obama

So there IS a raised seal on his birth certificate AND there is a newspaper announcement from when he was born. Still not enough for you?

Did you find that on FactCheck? The article didn't link directly to anything, and I didn't find it in a few searches.

All he has to do is produce it.. very simple.


Why?

To allow the loonies on the fringe to move on to their next assault on him? Why isn't there the same outrage as was being shown when folks wanted to see Dubya's records of his service with the National Guard?

What is driving this quest? Sour grapes? Racism? It surely isn't any grand motivation such as devotion to country, but simply devotion to oneself and the desire to keep one's name in the spotlight, even if for being a loonie. Any attention, even negative, is better than being ignored.

It is sad that there are others so willing to jump on this little side show bandwagon.

Ok.

If a court of law or any entity with a shred of credibility asked Obama to produce the documents, Im pretty sure he would. No such entity has asked.


This seems to me to be an incredibly valid point. This isn't Berg's torch to carry alone. Why has no one else within the system brought this to light.

I don't see stonewalling and hyperbole, I see common sense.

I was just as interested in seeing McCain's medical records and Cindy's tax returns. Those were relevant pieces of information that anyone would expect to provide in his situation.

Same with Obama and this situation.

Labeling that as racism is the only thing here that's loony. Why are so many people afraid of this issue, resorting to strawmen and hyperbole?

It's funny on that link of yours Osg that fox has an interview with Philip J. Berg, though they ran that guy through the coals not to long ago about 9.11.

Did you find that on FactCheck? The article didn't link directly to anything, and I didn't find it in a few searches.

http://wire.factcheck.org/2008/11/01/its-official-obama-born-in-the-usa/

Labeling that as racism is the only thing here that's loony. Why are so many people afraid of this issue, resorting to strawmen and hyperbole?

Thank you San for demonstrating how you fit so well into that class of folks you like to rail against.

I have not seen this labeled as racism anywhere in this thread, although I believe that racism could be a potential part of berg's motivation, hence the question mark I inserted after the word. Because I do not know his intent I can only guess at factors involved, sour grapes and racism being two possibilities.

It is cute how you always like to toss out "strawmen" and "hyperbole" when you really have no solid evidence to back up your pithy arguments.

Now, try to be happy and rejoice that we finally have an elected leader who revels in intellectual pursuit rather than wanting everything dumbed down to the most common level. And look for some better things to complain about with him than Berg's crusade or any of the other fringe folks that will continue coming out of the woodwork. I am sure there will be some legitimate mistakes made along the way for those that want to be in the "I told you so" club.

http://wire.factcheck.org/2008/11/01/its-official-obama-born-in-the-usa/

Yep, that works for me.

If the article Tal linked is not enough:

http://wire.factcheck.org/2008/11/01/its-official-obama-born-in-the-usa/

I doubt anything will be (as has been said already).

It is cute how you always like to toss out "strawmen" and "hyperbole" when you really have no solid evidence to back up your pithy arguments.

Look the word hyperbole up in the dictionary. Explain to me how you would provide "solid evidence" that obvious hyperbole is, in fact, hyperbole. That's silly (and I have no evidence of that either!!!).

Didn't the Supreme Court weigh in on this yesterday and say it's not even worth their time? Yes I'm paraphrasing.

Didn't the Supreme Court weigh in on this yesterday and say it's not even worth their time? Yes I'm paraphrasing.

Yes, I linked an article stating the Supreme Court wouldn't see it on the last page.

The Supreme Court only hears roughly 1% of the cases that it is petitioned to hear. A denial of a writ of certiorari specifically implies no judgment either way, but that they feel the case was adequately decided in the lower court.

Common mistake to read implied meaning into that, on many cases, but there is none.

ah my bad then.

I'd like to know how one could feel someone else's judgement was adequate enough on an issue to settle it ... and yet disagree with their judgement. Not sure its possible.

If the Supreme Court refused to hear it, they were agreeing with the lesser court's ruling.

The Supreme Court only hears roughly 1% of the cases that it is petitioned to hear. A denial of a writ of certiorari specifically implies no judgment either way, but that they feel the case was adequately decided in the lower court.

Common mistake to read implied meaning into that, on many cases, but there is none.


There is a lot of "ifs" in your response Sanchek.

I'd like to know how one could feel someone else's judgement was adequate enough on an issue to settle it ... and yet disagree with their judgement. Not sure its possible.

If the Supreme Court refused to hear it, they were agreeing with the lesser court's ruling.

I'm not sure what to tell you. That's just how it works, whether you believe it's possible or not.

Granting a writ similarly does not imply that the Supreme Court finds anything wrong with the lower court's decision.

There is a lot of "ifs" in your response Sanchek.

Internal File Separators?

Being in govt work I'm pretty confident Obama has had his background checked indepth. They're pretty serious about the background checks they put us through.

That being said the Democrats were really in a bad way without Obama. Sad that in an era following the Bush regime they had trouble coming up with a rich field of great prospects.

I doubt they'd be so desperate to forge paperwork, but I can see where folks would find it possible. The Democrat field is very lacking in leaders that anyone would trust. Obama was/is their bright hope and rightfully so.

Internal File Separators?

Yes, what else could I mean...hey it's the holiday season and online retail is booming!!

International Fiber Systems?

International Fiber Systems?

OMG NO... International Figure Skating

The Democrat field is very lacking in leaders that anyone would trust

What the heck are you talking about?

If it wasn't Obama, Hillary would have pretty assuredly won.

Besides.
Tim Kaine, Kathleen Sebelius, Claire McCaskill, Jon Tester, Jim Webb, Deval Patrick, Brian Schweitzer, Bob Casey, Mark Udall, Amy Klobuchar, Tim Johnson.

This is the new generation of Democratic leaders. The GOP has nothing even close to compare.
After Bobby Jindal and John Thune, the GOP has dick on a stick.

Before you make that claim how many % points did Obama win by? Not nearly as many as you claimed he would, think you claimed a landslide at one point and an easy victory at another. Both very inflated by party loyalty and falsely so.

Clinton likely wouldn't have won, she was a fairly easy mark and wouldn't have carried nearly the numbers Obama did.

There is a distinct lack of potential leaders that the country would find viable , from either party tbh.

So what I am talking about it cold hard truth ( my truth , can't really prove it either way and to say so is pure party bullshit ...again ).

The day Obama announced his candidacy he used the exact same teleprompter operator as another Senator doing the same thing. He told him "If I had Senator Richardson's resume, this election would have been over a long time ago".

I think there were plenty of capable candidates for the Democrats, truthfully.

You are missing a really big truth here.

Obama, who was the golden heir presumptive, didn't win by an impressive amount ( 52% to 46% by a very poorly ran McCain group)

Guess what that indicates, that the country doesn't support the very very very very left leanings of this board. This board , and most the posters , are not indicitive of the moderate nature of this country.

Now, if Obama roars and excels as we all hope he does I think it opens the door for more trust of the Democrats ( and locks out the Republicans for 10ish years ).

Truth is, the country isn't sure about the party just yet. It's more like they chose the least of two evils and are scared of anything that runs for office atm.

Guess what that indicates, that the country doesn't support the very very very very left leanings of this board. This board , and most the posters , are not indicitive of the moderate nature of this country.


Jedd and maaaaybe Rover and Nydia aside depending on certain issues, none of the US posters on this board remotely qualify as "left," much less " very very very very left."

I myself am a conservative, just not a Republican, because I value integrity and education and despise reactionary ignorance. The myth of American exceptionalism is dying all around us, and you can call it like it is or stick your head back in fairy-land. Byl is not a democrat, Sanchek is most certainly not a Democrat, Beelz and Bise aren't likely either.

I'm personally extremely happy not to be indicated by the nature of this nation, because this nation is a cesspool of self-inflicted ignorance right now.

Eh, guess when I said board (which I did) I was doing so on a basis of judging it by the posts more so than the posters.

I'm a moderate myself, I don't have any faith at all in any party. I am giving Obama a hopeful nod but since he has to work with the idiots led by Reid and Pelosi I think we're in a bad situation here.

I think the majority of the posts are in favor of policies, not parties as well. I have high hopes for Obama, but no illusions he's going to be anything but a politician. At best we can hope he picks the right issues to tackle (promising so far) and at least breaks even on results.

You are missing a really big truth here.

Obama, who was the golden heir presumptive, didn't win by an impressive amount ( 52% to 46% by a very poorly ran McCain group)

Guess what that indicates, that the country doesn't support the very very very very left leanings of this board. This board , and most the posters , are not indicitive of the moderate nature of this country.

Now, if Obama roars and excels as we all hope he does I think it opens the door for more trust of the Democrats ( and locks out the Republicans for 10ish years ).

Truth is, the country isn't sure about the party just yet. It's more like they chose the least of two evils and are scared of anything that runs for office atm.

That may not impress you, but 349 electoral votes is a land slide; almost as much as Clinton had against Dole.

Jedd and maaaaybe Rover and Nydia aside depending on certain issues, none of the US posters on this board remotely qualify as "left," much less " very very very very left."

I myself am a conservative, just not a Republican, because I value integrity and education and despise reactionary ignorance. The myth of American exceptionalism is dying all around us, and you can call it like it is or stick your head back in fairy-land. Byl is not a democrat, Sanchek is most certainly not a Democrat, Beelz and Bise aren't likely either.

I'm personally extremely happy not to be indicated by the nature of this nation, because this nation is a cesspool of self-inflicted ignorance right now.

Look, I'm a father that raised four children on his own, I'm a businessman, I'm basically self made and although I would easily qualify to collect disability and live off of the tax payer it is something I choose not to do. However, I see that companies like Halliburton, Blackwater and now most Wall St firms and Banks exist almost solely due to the taxpayer and they steal far to much money for any sane person to feel any support of them. This is beyond welfare, it's just plainly theft.

I believe that government has an obligation to provide good services to the citizens, and I believe that each citizen has an obligation to serve the country whether as military, peace corp, community organizer or any other type of program. I believe that EVERY American deserves good health care and that our current system of health care for profit is not only a huge failure as a business but is one of the great moral shames.

I have never taken 1 cent of unemployment or government assistance yet I do understand that it is a very necessary thing and that there are many people who would not and could not survive without it. I fear that many of our nation, particularly the ones who grew up in the 80's and 90's lack compassion for their fellow man...and that I don't understand.

So I guess I can be labeled a liberal because I have a suspicion that our government does not operate with our best interests in mind, I haven't seen it since the mid-60's it just seems to get worse every year and the Republicans seem to be the largest offenders and have been so from my earliest memories.

You are missing a really big truth here.

Obama, who was the golden heir presumptive, didn't win by an impressive amount ( 52% to 46% by a very poorly ran McCain group)

Guess what that indicates, that the country doesn't support the very very very very left leanings of this board. This board , and most the posters , are not indicitive of the moderate nature of this country.

Now, if Obama roars and excels as we all hope he does I think it opens the door for more trust of the Democrats ( and locks out the Republicans for 10ish years ).

Truth is, the country isn't sure about the party just yet. It's more like they chose the least of two evils and are scared of anything that runs for office atm.

1980 Election

Jimmy Carter v Ronald Reagan.

Reagan 50.7%
Carter 41.6%

That was one of the biggest blowouts in the modern era (Reagan v Mondale was 18%, making it the biggest). And it was "only" 9 points.

Obama won by 6.

Yes.. that is a sizable margin, and yes it is a blowout.

Given you really only should count the margin of non-Party voters, since the party ticket people basically don't care about candidates, it's actually much larger than it appears from the gross turn outs. In particular it's notable just how much of the population of historically Republican areas crossed over at least on the presidential ticket. Obama doesn't have a mandate, but he's sitting much prettier than most presidents.

Obama won by 6.

Yes.. that is a sizable margin, and yes it is a blowout.

Especially when you stop and consider just how many people that 6% equates to.

Late coming to this thread, late reading any news of any kind lately really. But this makes me think of all those stories my granny told me about my grandpa and him working on the railroad, bridges, and dams in our area. Of course it also makes me think of how TVA filled in Almond, NC and broken promises of a road to grave sites that is still bitter to many locals today. I've seen pictures of the camps and my granny was at New Found Gap when FDR dedicated the Great Smokey Mtns. Park (which many of my family had to vacate/sell their homes to give up to the park land).

Still, I think it's a good idea and even in all that bitterness of those mountain folk who lost their home and land and who every year on Decoration day have to ride a boat across Fontana Lake to visit their ancestors graves...I see the good that came from it.

*back to reading more of the thread*

People who think Obama's citizenship is an issue are slightly more gullible then people who think Zeitgeist is a mind blowing revelation.

People who think Obama's citizenship is an issue are slightly more gullible then people who think Zeitgeist is a mind blowing revelation.


I dunno', a friend and I split a four way hit of orange Zeitgeist at a music festival once back in the 60's, and it was pretty mind blowing.