http://www.c-span.org/Watch/watch.aspx?MediaId=HP-R-15267

At the risk of destabilizing this region with more of the Israel/Iran bickering, I was annoyed that he talked about a nuclear Iran as a danger in setting off an arms race in the region. By that logic, shouldn't we be liable for the same thing after giving Israel nukes long, long before Iran even hinted at a nuclear program?

http://www.c-span.org/Watch/watch.aspx?MediaId=HP-R-15267

At the risk of destabilizing this region with more of the Israel/Iran bickering, I was annoyed that he talked about a nuclear Iran as a danger in setting off an arms race in the region. By that logic, shouldn't we be liable for the same thing after giving Israel nukes long, long before Iran even hinted at a nuclear program?

Apples/oranges, tho i agree with the idea that we were wrong to give ANYONE nukes.

Iran is a much more aggressive nation than Israel , by in large.

Israel is very clearly not a state of pacifists or even a very stable region. When you're talking about thermonuclearly mutual assured destruction, any significant instability seems to be about the same level of bad.

Was nice to hear him at least pay lip service to the fact that an economy based on consumer spending is not sustainable.

I'm sorry, but I failed to see where the U.S. admitted giving Israel nukes.

Has that ever even been disputed?

Define "admit," "give," and "nuke." ...

'Iran is a much more aggressive nation than Israel , by in large'

- That is substantial rubbish.

Got to agree with with the Euro-Trash on this.

I thought Obama was being VERY careful with his words in regard to Iran. I thought it was a good response, well crafted. If you get a chance, look at the text and the adjectives he uses.

He is putting Iran in a place of discomfort for their leadership far more than Bush ever did. He is stripping away excuses for their behavior and removing convenient scapegoats and boogeymen.

His first press conference was a joke just as I thought it would be. This "Press conference" was staged and nothing more then an opportunity for him to give his teleprompter speeches. Oddly he never answered one questions. His campaing of hope and change has turned into a campaign of dooooooooo,

Iran is a much more aggressive nation than Israel , by in large.


You're joking....no? I mean historically speaking....just look.

I have to agree, Israel is very aggressive...Iran though is more dangerous to us...they are passive aggressive.

Can't really comment on the speech...didn't watch it, rarely watch Presidential News conferences. Guess I'm just out of the habit since George double dumb ass was in office.

His first press conference was a joke just as I thought it would be. This "Press conference" was staged and nothing more then an opportunity for him to give his teleprompter speeches. Oddly he never answered one questions. His campaing of hope and change has turned into a campaign of dooooooooo,

damnit so he learned from The GOP for the last 8 years.....stupid copy cat

I have to agree, Israel is very aggressive...Iran though is more dangerous to us...they are passive aggressive.



I agree with this. But does anyone doubt that Israel could turn on us and be just as dangerous? We should not take sides with anyone in that region period. We've played up to Israel for far too long; I wish we could find some way to be more neutral in these affairs but realize that time has probably come and gone.

I watched the press conference but was pissed as hell there was no Chuck :(

Okay okay I was in a hurry and blurted out a few lines before I moved on.

Iran is much more aggressive to our interests ;P Far as I know Israel has never held our folks hostage for over 200 days.

Now, before you jump on the hate train read the rest of my post where I said we made a mistake helping anyone to the Nuke big boy table.

I agree with this. But does anyone doubt that Israel could turn on us and be just as dangerous? We should not take sides with anyone in that region period. We've played up to Israel for far too long; I wish we could find some way to be more neutral in these affairs but realize that time has probably come and gone.

I watched the press conference but was pissed as hell there was no Chuck :(

Chuck was on here ,but it was from last year ;(

But does anyone doubt that Israel could turn on us and be just as dangerous? We should not take sides with anyone in that region period.

We are Israel's main ally and military support, to turn on us would be virtual suicide. As for being Switzerland in that region....we burned that bridge decades ago.

Iran is much more aggressive to our interests ;P Far as I know Israel has never held our folks hostage for over 200 days.




I wonder how many of those hostages were killed by Iran in 1979? Surely many more than the 30+ dead US Sailors when Israel attacked the USS Liberty.

http://www.c-span.org/Watch/watch.aspx?MediaId=HP-R-15267

At the risk of destabilizing this region with more of the Israel/Iran bickering, I was annoyed that he talked about a nuclear Iran as a danger in setting off an arms race in the region. By that logic, shouldn't we be liable for the same thing after giving Israel nukes long, long before Iran even hinted at a nuclear program?

Maybe, except we didn't give the Israelis nukes. You can thank France for that.

I agree with this. But does anyone doubt that Israel could turn on us and be just as dangerous? We should not take sides with anyone in that region period. We've played up to Israel for far too long; I wish we could find some way to be more neutral in these affairs but realize that time has probably come and gone.

I watched the press conference but was pissed as hell there was no Chuck :(

I was pissed as hell there was no House.

Has that ever even been disputed?

Yes.

The initial reactor used by Israel to jump start their nuclear weapon program was provided to Israel by France back in the fifties over US concerns.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

The US has routinely provided arms to Israel for their self defense, but nuclear capability was one thing we did *not* give them.

It is likely we have since shared safety feature technology with them (since we even provided it to the USSR), but not the basic nukes themselves.

Safety when dealing with nukes, is arguably a good thing. Cracked casings, and leaking nuclear material is generally not good for anyone.

My feeling was, this was an unscripted news conference. I saw Obama stutter, trip over words, and falter on a few of his analogies during it. Made me think a bit of Dubbya.

I was pissed as hell there was no House.

/thread_win


Wife and I were very pissed about this. We only get so much time during the week with out busy schedules to sit down together and watch a show together and House is the usually that show.

I wonder how many of those hostages were killed by Iran in 1979? Surely many more than the 30+ dead US Sailors when Israel attacked the USS Liberty.

On the other hand, the suicide bomber that took out the US barracks in Beirut killing over 200 was Iranian. Add to that an undetermined number of attacks killing US soldiers by Quds agents operating in Iraq during the last few years and we just won't know what the final tally really is.

Suffice to say we shouldn't trust either Iran or Israel overmuch.

My feeling was, this was an unscripted news conference. I saw Obama stutter, trip over words, and falter on a few of his analogies during it. Made me think a bit of Dubbya.

He'll get cut more slack than Dubya ever was, but if he doesn't improve noticeably in future conferences we will witness the birth of a new comedic routine on TV poking fun at him, mark my words.

On the other hand, the suicide bomber that took out the US barracks in Beirut killing over 200 was Iranian. Add to that an undetermined number of attacks killing US soldiers by Quds agents operating in Iraq during the last few years and we just won't know what the final tally really is.

Suffice to say we shouldn't trust either Iran or Israel overmuch.


Funny you should mention that to me.

I don't see how you could verbally criticize his performance. He made proper use of the word "bellicose" for christsake. Comparison to Nukular W. is sort of silly.

On the other hand, the suicide bomber that took out the US barracks in Beirut killing over 200 was Iranian. Add to that an undetermined number of attacks killing US soldiers by Quds agents operating in Iraq during the last few years and we just won't know what the final tally really is.

Suffice to say we shouldn't trust either Iran or Israel overmuch.


Think it was fair after we shot down an Iranian passenger airliner?

Think it was fair after we shot down an Iranian passenger airliner?

Nope, i do not...

You will never find folks to back that bullshit.

You most definately will step into a pile of shit here with a few (especially Rover) if you try to compare an intentional act with an accident.

Do yourself a favor....shut the fuck up on this one.

Nope, i do not...

You will never find folks to back that bullshit.

You most definately will step into a pile of shit here with a few (especially Rover) if you try to compare an intentional act with an accident.

Do yourself a favor....shut the fuck up on this one.

The commander of that fucking ship got a medal!! Not to mention that you apologize when you make a mistake and kill innocents. I seem to recall a president that said he will never apologize for the USA after his military murdered over 250 innocent civilians.

So killing soldiers is worse then killing innocents now? The world is upside down!

Must suck to be a muslim, you can't fight war cause every target is off limits, even military targets. Your a terrorist no matter who you kill!@

Okay okay I was in a hurry and blurted out a few lines before I moved on.

Iran is much more aggressive to our interests ;P Far as I know Israel has never held our folks hostage for over 200 days.

Now, before you jump on the hate train read the rest of my post where I said we made a mistake helping anyone to the Nuke big boy table.

They did sink one of our ships though. And took hours doing it. Oh and our president ordered our ships not to help.

Yeah Jedd , Iran is just misunderstood! Actually the Persian people just want to live life like anyone else, its their government that is fucked up, much like many other places.

They did sink one of our ships though. And took hours doing it. Oh and our president ordered our ships not to help.

Yeah Jedd , Iran is just misunderstood! Actually the Persian people just want to live life like anyone else, its their government that is fucked up, much like many other places.

Yeah, I interviewed most of the survivors of that attack a year ago. Totally fucked up thing there, from both sides (Israel and the US).

Do you have a copy of that? I would be interested in reading or listening to it.

I know the Geriatric crew at my store would also.

It was actually for the USS Liberty reunion committee at their 40th anniversary meeting they held a few years back. They wanted it all documented as the old crew members age and are slowly passing away. I have no idea what they did with it or if it ever aired anywhere.

Funny you should mention that to me.

I *was* agreeing with you (to a certain extent). I was just pointing out that Iran's hands were far from clean too.

I've never bought Israel's proclamations that they didn't realize Liberty was a US ship. I also don't believe Iran's denials about their proxy killers in Iraq, Lebanon and elsewhere.

Think it was fair after we shot down an Iranian passenger airliner?

You mean before we shot down the airliner? Beirut happened six years earlier.


It is also alleged Iran paid for the Lockerbie bomb in retaliation. So where does the retributive killing end?

And yes, I think the Captain of the Vincennes should have been held accountable.

I *was* agreeing with you (to a certain extent). I was just pointing out that Iran's hands were far from clean too.

I've never bought Israel's proclamations that they didn't realize Liberty was a US ship. I also don't believe Iran's denials about their proxy killers in Iraq, Lebanon and elsewhere.

Oh Irans hands are very far from clean, but it is arguably accurate that the first "dirty" moves were made by the US with the coup, installation of the Shah to power and then the support of the Shah long after it was known how his regime treated the Iranian people.

Having been a "member" of the Multi-National Peacekeeping Forces in 1983-84 I am to this day bewildered at our non-response to Iran and its support of the Beirut bombing however more bewildering is the non-response to Hezbollah as we knew right where they were and they were considerably a much smaller force in 1983.

There is a theory that Iran knew that the airliner shot down would be fired upon and we were set-up. For arguments sake lets say it is true, problem is our ship was in Iranian waters where it had no business which in turn gives the world the accurate impression that we were being bullies.

Set-up or not, our ship should not be in Iranian territorial waters that act alone makes us the bad guy in the eyes of 95% of the world.

I'm not sure our ship *was* in Iranian waters, unless you concede the Strait of Hormuz as belonging solely to Iran. In which case every ship that comes out of the gulf is violating Iranian waters.

I've heard the theory that the shoot down was a setup, that the airliner had been equipped with an old F-14 transponder. Without proof of some sort or someone on the Iranian side coming forward, I'll stick with the Vincennes screwing up as the more likely scenario.

From what I remember we acknowledged the ship was in Iranian waters but we did not admit fault and probably rightfully so...too many questions and it is not a far reach to believe that Iran is capable of sacrificing a plane load of people for a larger cause...

*Braces for Jedd's vehement response*

You guys... sigh

You guys... sigh

Oh please, surely you are going to toss more bs at us.

Like...hey they were right to blow up our marines since we were going to shoot down an airliner in the future...3 years from then.

Yup, nothing tastes so right than revenge ahead of the slight.

Maybe they thought we had WMDs, so that made it okay! Oh, wait.

When the U.S. tries to do that (preemptive strikes), world opinion is generally negative.

However, Iran's use of preemptive strikes is somehow palatable?

/boggle

Oh please, surely you are going to toss more bs at us.

Like...hey they were right to blow up our marines since we were going to shoot down an airliner in the future...3 years from then.

Yup, nothing tastes so right than revenge ahead of the slight.

I may have mixed up dates, but you will find it impossible to prove Iran acted against the US before the US acted against Iran.

The fault of the deaths of the Marines in Beirut lays right on Ronald Reagan and Caspar Weinberger.

To have deployed a battalion of Marines in a combat zone and take away their ability to defend themselves is criminal. Then to simply walk away and somehow get a reputation for being tough and supportive of the military is just shocking to me.

We were a military unit in a combat zone...a three year old could see we would be attacked. Reagan played politics with our lives.

No Rover, the fault for their deaths doesn't lie at Ronnies feet. The fault for them being in a bad situation yes....

It's the fucknuts who , and those that support them, that actually bombed our boys that deserve that label.

No Rover, the fault for their deaths doesn't lie at Ronnies feet. The fault for them being in a bad situation yes....

It's the fucknuts who , and those that support them, that actually bombed our boys that deserve that label.

Wasn't it you that said if you declare war, then go all out? They seem to fight war the way you want us to fight it, but somehow it bothers you.

I may have mixed up dates, but you will find it impossible to prove Iran acted against the US before the US acted against Iran.

No shell game Jedd.

Want to play chicken and the egg. Fuck that area has been a violent cesspool for longer than the US has been around.

The cultures, the religions and omg the oil they have started it first ...neener neener.

Wasn't it you that said if you declare war, then go all out? They seem to fight war the way you want us to fight it, but somehow it bothers you.

God you are one inbred idiot aren't you. I don't recall Iran ever declaring war on the US.

Do try to understand before you wade in okay?

If you commit to WAR, do so....

You want to keep justifying that bullshit I'll be glad to take up a collection so you can be the plumber for your beloved Iranians.

No shell game Jedd.

Want to play chicken and the egg. Fuck that area has been a violent cesspool for longer than the US has been around.

The cultures, the religions and omg the oil they have started it first ...neener neener.

The area has nothing to do with Iran. It is your racist ignorant idiocy that leads you to clump every country together and label them violent. The most violent nation in this world is our own, so perhaps you should shut your mouth.

You know what...a trigger happy 19 year old sitting behind a loaded .50 Cal with the ability to engage would have boded a much different outcome for the day. Mind you it was Reagan who set the order for each man to have 5 rounds of ammunition in a stripper clip and any orders to engage were set at the very top of the chain of command.

God you are one inbred idiot aren't you. I don't recall Iran ever declaring war on the US.

Do try to understand before you wade in okay?

If you commit to WAR, do so....

You want to keep justifying that bullshit I'll be glad to take up a collection so you can be the plumber for your beloved Iranians.


Somehow an Iranian committing an act is a direct result of Iranian action?

So if a white American man bombs and kills people somewhere the United States was complicit in the action?

Perhaps that Iranian man was living in Lebanon and fighting us like the rest of the people we were fighting.

Keep talking shit, it just proves how big of an idiot you are.

The area has nothing to do with Iran. It is your racist ignorant idiocy that leads you to clump every country together and label them violent. The most violent nation in this world is our own, so perhaps you should shut your mouth.

Oh shut your misleading whiny bullshit up.

We've far too short a history to be the most violent in the world. That area far strips us , and the rest of the world, in culture/religious related stupidity.

You were wrong, called on it and you resorted to your usual bullshit.

serious, we'll take up a collection. You can even continue to post from there and let us know how your attitude serves you over there.

Somehow an Iranian committing an act is a direct result of Iranian action?

So if a white American man bombs and kills people somewhere the United States was complicit in the action?

Perhaps that Iranian man was living in Lebanon and fighting us like the rest of the people we were fighting.

Keep talking shit, it just proves how big of an idiot you are.

Wow, you should give up the plumber business and go into selling broken down used cars. I imagine you'd do well using that bullshit you spew in that line of work.

Wow, you should give up the plumber business and go into selling broken down used cars. I imagine you'd do well using that bullshit you spew in that line of work.

Fuck you and your childlike behavior, resorting to diminishing my work to make yourself feel big. I own a business bitch, What about you?

Oh shut your misleading whiny bullshit up.

We've far too short a history to be the most violent in the world. That area far strips us , and the rest of the world, in culture/religious related stupidity.

You were wrong, called on it and you resorted to your usual bullshit.

serious, we'll take up a collection. You can even continue to post from there and let us know how your attitude serves you over there.

Once again no facts, just bullshit.

Fuck you and your childlike behavior, resorting to diminishing my work to make yourself feel big. I own a business bitch, What about you?

Me? I serve so you can run your mouth and do nothing but fill the slot of "dregs of society".

Enjoy ;)

Me? I serve so you can run your mouth and do nothing but fill the slot of "dregs of society".

Enjoy ;)

My employees would disagree, Asshole.

The Iranians are there with the full blessing of the government of Iran...come on Jedd...facts are facts...live with them.

Since there's so much tripe and bile pointlessly being thrown around in here, I figured we might as well make the recipe fit the crime, as well as a good cure for the headache all you guys' pointless bickering is giving everyone, so I bring you:

Menudo!

You will need:

A large saucepan (see note below)
1 calf's foot (about 1 to 1 1/2 pounds)
2 pounds honeycomb tripe
1 large onion
3 cloves garlic, peeled
6 peppercorns
2 teaspoons salt, or to taste
4 quarts of water
A comal or griddle
3 large chiles anchos
A spice grinder
A large chile poblano, peeled or 2 canned, peeled green chiles
The calf's foot
1/2 cup canned hominy (1 pound) drained (see note below)
Salt as necessary
1 scant teaspoon oregano

Have the butcher cut the calf's foot into four pieces. Cut the tripe into small squares. Put them into the pan with the rest of the ingredients. Cover with water and bring to a boil. Lower the flame and simmer uncovered for about 2 hours, or until the tripe and foot are just tender but not too soft. Meanwhile, toast the chilies well. Slit them open and remove the seeds and veins from the chile poblano, cut it into strips, and add to the meat while it is cooking. Remove the pieces of calf's foot from the pen, and when they are cool enough to handle, strip off the fleshy parts. Chop them roughly and return them to the pan.

Add hominy and continue cooking the menudo slowly, still uncovered, for another 2 hours.

Add salt as necessary. Sprinkle with oregano and serve (see note below).

This amount is sufficient for 7 or 8 people. It should be served in large, deep bowls with hot tortillas and small dishes of chopped chile serranos, finely chopped onion and wedges of lime for each person to help himself, along with Salsa de Tomate Verde Cruda to be eaten with tortillas.

And if you think that sounds gross (although Faervas swears by it :) ), just compare the merits of a nice steaming bowl of slow-cooked spicy cow intestine, hominy, and foot scrapings against the above 'dialog' and decide which is more palatable... ;)

For the record, I think that both of you are oversimplifying the issues involved, and getting knee-jerk emotional about who did which underhanded maneuver when which is precisely what got us to the current impasse in the first place. America and Iran's leaders both have, in the fairly recent past, had reasons to demonize each other for political gain, while at the same time each realizing that they can't *actually* upset the apple cart too much with regard to what they need from, influence-wise and otherwise, each other. So we've pushed each other, several times, to the edge of a crisis and then retreated. Hopefully the new administration will give us a chance to enage in some less rhetoric and more meaningful dialogue with Iran; despite the stranglehold the mullahs still have on the reigns of power, they too are feeling both the economic pressure with regard to the current crisis and growing pressure to reform from their far more secular under-30 population.

Regards,
Nydia

The Iranians are there with the full blessing of the government of Iran...come on Jedd...facts are facts...live with them.

They are now... maybe. Just like we can only guess what our government is doing, we can only guess what they are doing. An Iranian is still a person born in Iran, or to Iranian parents. They are not automatically government agents.

For the record, I think that both of you are oversimplifying the issues involved, and getting knee-jerk emotional about who did which underhanded maneuver when which is precisely what got us to the current impasse in the first place. America and Iran's leaders both have, in the fairly recent past, had reasons to demonize each other for political gain, while at the same time each realizing that they can't *actually* upset the apple cart too much with regard to what they need from, influence-wise and otherwise, each other. So we've pushed each other, several times, to the edge of a crisis and then retreated. Hopefully the new administration will give us a chance to enage in some less rhetoric and more meaningful dialogue with Iran; despite the stranglehold the mullahs still have on the reigns of power, they too are feeling both the economic pressure with regard to the current crisis and growing pressure to reform from their far more secular under-30 population.

Regards,
Nydia

In the short term you are absolutely right, however if we are going to discuss the history from the very beginning, there is one antagonist and only one that is responsible for why relations are as they are today, and that is our USA.

They are now... maybe. Just like we can only guess what our government is doing, we can only guess what they are doing. An Iranian is still a person born in Iran, or to Iranian parents. They are not automatically government agents.


Jedd...pissing in someones Cheerios doesn't make it right that they do it to you. Honestly I don't give a shit what nationality the driver of the truck was it's irrelevant. What is relevant? The reasons as to why people feel it necessary to blow themselves up and kill Americans...maybe we have been assholes and deserved it...hey in my mind it was an attack on a military force and that is a risk you take when landing in a contested area.

Now tho, justify the muslim on muslim violence and why that is ok...I would be interested to hear your opinion.

Jedd...pissing in someones Cheerios doesn't make it right that they do it to you. Honestly I don't give a shit what nationality the driver of the truck was it's irrelevant. What is relevant? The reasons as to why people feel it necessary to blow themselves up and kill Americans...maybe we have been assholes and deserved it...hey in my mind it was an attack on a military force and that is a risk you take when landing in a contested area.

Now tho, justify the muslim on muslim violence and why that is ok...I would be interested to hear your opinion.

Its not ok, murder and violence is never ok, I just don't like hearing people ignore certain murder and violence and call other murder and violence heinous.

I own a business bitch, What about you?


Your lack of punctuation gives the appearance of your taking pride in being a pimp; is this the case you are making?

Hopefully the new administration will give us a chance to enage in some less rhetoric and more meaningful dialogue with Iran

Regards,
Nydia


In addition, Ali Khamani, who is the former president of Iran from 1981-1989, is again tossing his hat into the election for a new president. With his wide support base and leanings toward increased interaction with the West, his inclusion in the election campaign alone should have some interesting affect. Should he actually be allowed to win, by the religious leaders, he could have a profound impact on our relations.

Your lack of punctuation gives the appearance of your taking pride in being a pimp; is this the case you are making?

Punctuation patrol?!!!

Fuck you and your childlike behavior, resorting to diminishing my work to make yourself feel big. I own a business bitch, What about you?

I own a business lets hug!

They are now... maybe. Just like we can only guess what our government is doing, we can only guess what they are doing. An Iranian is still a person born in Iran, or to Iranian parents. They are not automatically government agents.

A good point. However Islamic Jihad (aka Hezbollah) publicly took credit for the bombings. They are the proxy arm of the Revolutionary Guards of Iran and Syria. In this case he almost certainly was an agent for the government of Iran, being an Iranian national.

A good point. However Islamic Jihad (aka Hezbollah) publicly took credit for the bombings. They are the proxy arm of the Revolutionary Guards of Iran and Syria. In this case he almost certainly was an agent for the government of Iran, being an Iranian national.

Islamic Jihad =/= Hezbollah

Islamic Jihad =/= Hezbollah

Islamic Jihad was the Nom de Guerre for Hezbollah in 1983.

I will go with Gulor FTW...Jedd...some things are just the way they are and that is the way it is.

Talk is cheap. War is expensive. That is really the bottom line with this. Plus that wacko president of Iran is probably going to get his pink slip soon and perhaps Obama is looking forward to Iran being able to put itself on the back burner for a while. Its plausible to argue that Obama is really wanting to put alot of foriegn policy thorns on the backburner, at least the ones not tied to the financial mess, in order to focus more attention to domestic issues. Its all about triage now.

LOL, Jedd seemed to be trying to do a "Jeddi" Mind Trick in this thread. He would wave his arm and say, "The Americans shot down a jetliner, and that's why Marines died." or "The man that bombed the Marines had no ties to Iran." Talk about your revisionist history!

Fortunately, those "Jeddi" Mind Tricks only work on weak-minded fools...