edition.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/12/11/gays.military.ap/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/12/11/gays.military.ap/index.html)

Let's just say this brings new meaning to the term "rear admiral."

Yeah, it's 2003. Nobody cares about gay/bi/lesbian people anymore. It's a dying fad. Kkthx. Can we move on now?

/raspberry Zehn :P

I think it was an incredibly courageous and important thing for these three men to do, and hopefully it will be a catalyst for pulling the door off one of the biggest closets (and what always has been one of the biggest closets) in the U.S..
Part of the actual interview with the retired officers can be found here:

edition.cnn.com/2003/US/N...index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/12/11/cnna.gays.military/index.html)

An interesting article linked to the one Willgatus posted, about an attempt to form a gay Naval Academy alumni chapter, can be found here:

edition.cnn.com/2003/US/S...index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/South/11/08/naval.academy.gay.ap/index.html)

and here:
edition.cnn.com/2003/US/1...index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/12/06/gay.navy.alumni/index.html)

Meaning no disrespect to either our men and women in uniform, or the naive, but the prevalence of homosexuals in the military is at *least* as high as it is in the general population, and (speaking from personal experience here) considerably higher in servicewomen. It's ludicrous to insist that gay men and women have to live in fear (and live a lie) in order to have a career in the military.

I think that the Pentagon, and some segments of the general population, have this bizarre fear that if homosexuals are 'allowed' to serve openly, that it will either 1) have negative effects on morale or 2) gay promiscuity will become a problem. Re the morale issue, I think that attitudes in the U.S. towards gays and bisexuals have evolved considerably even in the ten years since 'Don't ask, Don't tell' was enacted, and that the military's own socialization process, which strips distinctions of race and gender and religion in favor of loyalty to the unit, will manage to deal with sexual orientation as well, although not without some bumps I am sure.

I'd also submit, re the sex issue, that servicemen and women, gay or straight, already know how to get into trouble, and that the same sorts of "educational" and STD prevention strategies, as well as fraternization restrictions (dating someone in your chain of command is a no-no, for example), that are already being employed can be used in the 'uncloseted' military to deal with such issues.

Zehn is absolutely right in one sense: homosexuality is a /yawn) issue, or at least it should be. In this day and age, nobody cares, and neither should the Pentagon, as long as a person is otherwise suited for military service. Don't ask, Don't tell', while a baby step in the right direction, has resulted in more persecution, more witch hunts, against suspected gays in the military than the previous 'no tolerance' policy, and has outlived its very limited usefulness. It's time, not for gay pride parades in the military, but just for gay servicemen and women simply to be able to serve their country without being forced to live a lie.

Which 'Don't ask, Don't tell' decidedly does. I have a family member whose partner of 10+ years is a Lt. Commander in the Navy. Sure, you can *be* gay and still serve, but how do you 'not tell' (or should I say, not let slip) such a thing? They both have had to engage in considerable camoflage, including a series of clueless or sympathetic camoflage 'girlfriends'...

Ugggh, it's 4 am and I've been up for almost 24 hours now. Thanks for stirring the pot past my bedtime, Will... :P

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

Just...not say anything? I mean seriously, how hard is to to be sitting at lunch and avoid saying, "Damn these cookies are great. Hey, did I tell you? I'm fucking Bob in the ass now. Oooh, pudding cups."

Maybe I'm not fully understanding the don't ask, don't tell rule, but the fact that these people got any media coverage at all is exactly why the rule is in place anyways.

You rarely see guys going, "Hey, I fuck chicks!" and get media coverage. Mainly because it's a 'no shit sherlock' type thing. Call me Cletus, but I doubt the military would give a shit about gays in the military if the gay community would just sit down and shut up for a change instead of making an issue everytime someone even -remotely- famous comes out of the closet.

I mean for fucks sake, I just did my dishes. Where's the goddamn press? Oh that's right, nobody cares.

Except, Zehn, people can and have been forced out of the military, simply for being gay. Not caught in the act, not caught flirting with a co-worker, not holding hands. Nothing other than making their sexual preference known.

There is at least one common, well known, widely practiced public ritual that reveals your sexuality to everyone whether they want to know it or not....

Asking someone out on a date.

In the military, heterosexuals aren't discharged because they asked someone out on a date but homosexuals can be because its a violation of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

It was stupid policy when I was in the Army. Its stupid policy now.

Point to me one incident of someone being kicked out of the military for -simply- -being- gay, and I'll bow before you. That would mean that the military has developed some kind of radar that detects gay people. And if so I want to borrow it because I'm begining seriously doubt the clailms of heterosexuality in a friend of mine.

Nothing other than making their sexual preference known.

You know, I was sitting at the dinner table this thanksgiving, and it occured to me that I should let everyone know I enjoy masturbating. Then I realized, "Hey...it might make people uncomfortable. I'll just keep my mouth shut."

Man, I'm a fucking genius.

I'm gonna leave it at that, because otherwise it's gonna take me four days and several cases of root beer to get through this discussion. I'm tagging out.

You know, I was sitting at the dinner table this thanksgiving, and it occured to me that I should let everyone know I enjoy masturbating. Then I realized, "Hey...it might make people uncomfortable. I'll just keep my mouth shut."

The problem is that you're equating a sexual practice (masturbating) with a sexual preference (homosexuality). Talking about sexual practices should be kept private unless thats what the group has agreed to talk about.

The "Don't ask, don't tell" policy extends beyond just keeping the knowledge of your sexuality to yourself. For example a single heterosexual soldier doesn't have to worry about being seen entering a club or bar that caters to heterosexuals. A homosexual soldier doesn't have the same freedom. I've known soldiers, good ones, who were identified by CID (the military's undercover MPs) as being patrons of gay clubs. No big deal you say? Except that any gay bar in the towns located next to military installations is automatically put on the "off limits" list solely for being a gay bar. Those soldiers were punished for "patronizing an off limits establishment against orders" in the official paperwork but the real reason was they were gay.

The real issue is that "Don't ask, don't tell" doesn't do anything about the underlying military regulations that make being homosexual a crime punishable under military law. Its a policy President Clinton devised reasoning that "if they don't know you're gay, they can't prosecute you". It didn't make life easier for gays in the military, it drove them to greater lengths to hide their sexuality.

sexual practice (masturbating) with a sexual preference (homosexuality)

How do you know that masturbation isn't my chosen lifestyle? Maybe I was born with the sole desire for hand on dick action? Isn't that a bit discriminatory to say that a man having a relationship with another consenting adult is any more real then me having a relationship with my consenting hand?

They joined the military. The army owns their ass. If they want to say, "Don't go into this place" you better keep your ass out. You want the freedome to fuck at will? Go to college and find a freshmen dorm.

Alright, tagging out for real.

Imagine you are in the military happily going through life ( playing the pronoun dance ) and boom you get into an accident. After a coupe of years and many surgeries the final one to end your military career is ready to happen.

You go to the hospital (civilian/military ) for the surgery. Your "friend" cant say " I love you " before they roll you out of pre-op , you can't put the "relationship" down on the forms for point of contact , 6 surgery hours later they shut the lights off in the waiting room because the nurses werent looking for a "friend".

The nurses have to call your doctor because he has left after the surgery , because there was no husband/wife waiting. Your "friend" has to tell them she needs to know if you're alive or dead so she can tell your parents.

How would you feel if that doctor left you sitting there while your wife is "under the knife" for 6 hours and goes home. You would get mad and yell maybe , but a gay/bi person in the military has to bite they're tounge and shut up. Especially when theyre are benefits on the line.

Gay/bi people dont want to run through bases waving a rainbow flag but they want to be able to sit at the lunch table and talk about the date they had the night before without playing the pronoun dance.

Isn't that a bit discriminatory to say that a man having a relationship with another consenting adult is any more real then me having a relationship with my consenting hand?

No more discriminatory than saying a relationship between two consenting people of opposite genders is any more real than a relationship between to two consenting people of the same gender.

Exactly!~ I win.

Imagine you are in the military

I like to imagine that I'm in the military on a secret mission. I break into a house in the desert where Mary-kate and Ashley are wrestling in pudding....err nevermind.

No Zehn, you don't "win".

You continue to ignore the problem.

There are no laws preventing you from happily living out your life with your right hand or your left, or both if you have an "open relationship".

There are laws preventing homosexuals from pursuing happiness, as they see it, and as guaranteed by our constitution.

Having a spiritual/religious objection or a completely secular "its against nature" opposition to the practice of homosexuality does not give you the right to deny others their basic rights because they don't have the same objections to the practice as you.

the military has developed some kind of radar that detects gay people

Gaydar....


The reasons given for keeping gay people out of the military don't quite fit anymore.

Though the parody presented in Cryptonomicon about gays in the military was.... amusing.

Point to me one incident of someone being kicked out of the military for -simply- -being- gay, and I'll bow before you. That would mean that the military has developed some kind of radar that detects gay people.

No, it doesn't require a radar.
All ir requires is to ask a question that demands a revealing answer, without directly asking if the person is gay. For example "are you in a relationship", or similar.

Several years ago I saw a movie named "Serving in Silence". It was based on a true story, and the main character (anyone remember her name please?) was asked personal questions UNDER OATH, and then got kicked out of the military because she didn't lie under oath and thus violated the "don't tell" policy.

Hey Ediena =)

No, it doesn't require a radar.No, it requires "Gaydar".

why dont we have straight pride parades? but i agree with zehn, i dont go yelling at people im straight! OMGWTFLOL!!!111! IM STRAIGHT!!!

fuck why the hell do i gotta deal with gay people yelling at me that they are gay?

maybe not yelling, but i just dont wanna ehar about it all the time

Because being heterosexual has never been an opressed or attacked life style. Straight people have never suffered for being straight for, well, ever. The majority of people still have very negative and hostile opinions towards homosexuals, especially in major institutions, and in all walks of society. Homosexuals suffer a lot, specifically in terms of crime with a large portion of homophobic violent attacks still happening very regularly.
This does make me laugh. It's a similar situation to the "Racism" thread, someone being unable to comprehend why a black person making fun of a white person is OK, but vice versa is not. Well.. white ethnicity hasn't been the target of suffering and opression for - again - ever.
I'm not saying either is right, I'm merely giving you an understanding of why it happens.
I know if I were in their situation, I wouldn't yell about it, purely because I wouldn't care. But I do respect and understand those who would like to express it and make a point out of it - it's well deserved in this opressive and discriminative society.

Same goes for feminists. All of these discriminated and suffering groups (whether in the past or still at the moment) of society deserve, and have a right - if they so choose - to shout about it at the top of their lungs.
A fucking right.