3 issues.

After about 5 minutes of watching the US men's basketball team today, I realized it would a terrible injustice if they/we won. First of all too many good players were to lazy to even go to the Olympics. Second of all, those that are there are showing zero heart, zero desire, and almost zero skill. They pointed out during the game, only one player on the US team was even in the top 50 in three point shooting percentage in the NBA this year. All we have is a bunch of guys dribbling around trying to find a way to get to the rim.... oh and playing no defense.

Second issue is... I just can't believe how totally empty the seats are at all the events. I was watching some of the gymnastics competition and you know these guys have trained their whole lives for this moment... to perform in the Olympics in front of a huge crowd of ohh... about 100 people. What the hell is going on over there.

Third, every time the summer olympics comes around I'm reminded how many stupid sports there are. Synchronized diving? Give me a break. The commentator was trying to explain how this one team wasn't too far behind but they really didn't have a chance to win because their last dive hadn't been that great so in the minds of the judges, they didn't have any momentum going into their last dive. Then there was a British team in second place and the team in first went to dive... their scores were like average 9.0 or so... and their score from the British judge?.... 6.5. LOL wth.

All the same things I was thinking.

1. The basketball team couldnt even hit a 3 point shot..they were seriously out played. Was cool to see Puerto Rico kick there ass imo.

2. I dont get the lack of attendence either although the basketball was sold out. I know my wife and I had the same question about why the lack of attendence..could it be Greece and not feeling safe or was it just the event at the time? Curious.

The judging on the gymnastics seemed to be out of whack to me as well.


Ibudin

I cannot comment on this thread because I would agree with Winterworg.. such an event would, if allowed to happen, create a rift in the space time continuum, creating an alternate reality in which it rained donuts.

In the olympics many events run at the same date, at the same time. Thus the less popular events can be knocked out by the competition of larger more popular events.

Same set of events set in America sell out.

Truth is the Olympics held in Europe have always lost cash. Greece is going to take it on the chin this year. ;(

Tho I imagine the soccer events will do well, there are enough Soccer Holligans to sell every ticket.

Oh and I totally agree about our Basketball team. Fucking Iverson as the captain? He's the biggest thug in the NBA today, couldn't lead another thug to an armory and by no means belongs on a team showcasing our NBA players.

Dream Team 1 was simply the best ...ever...

Fandros

Whatever the reason may be, however good it is, the empty seats today (mainly in the gymnastics events) did surprise me a little bit. Of course I'm bad too, I can't even sit down for more than 5 minutes and watch it on TV.

Everyone had/s such high expectations for the U.S. team and I don't really understand why. Yea, the entire team is made up out of the NBA, but not only were a lot of them rookies last year, but they have no experience playing together. Most of the teams in the Olympics play together regularly, and compete in tournaments as countries all the time. I wouldn't expect the U.S. to be able to toss a few halfway descent NBA players together and them to mesh better than teams that know each other well.

It would be much different if one of 2 things occured. Either, the U.S. sends an ultra talented group of guys that take a lot of time to practice together (Original Dream Team), or send a team of guys over that all know each other and their respective playing styles well, like sending the whole Pistons team over or something with maybe a few guys to fill spots, heh.

All things aside though, the game against Puerto Rico they did play quite shittily. They had to adjust to a different style of officiating, that and they couldn't get a damn shot to drop from 2 feet away. I think they will do a lot better, but no one should expect them to be an automatic gold this year, like many have.

Well for the little story, they jacked up price of hotels in greece so much that they didn't sell anything in the end.

Everything noted by judges always has been bullshit. You can see the "stars" get super score for mediocre perf while some unknown guy do something totally amazing and end up with a 6.5. Its all bullshit and mostly why I don't bother looking at it anymore.

Not only is there a ridiculous event (sport? right!) like synchronized diving in the Olympics, but they televise the damn thing. And at primetime no less (on the east coast). I find it hard to believe that the Olympic games couldn't have spawned something more entertaining than this johnny-come-lately competition.

Watched a few minutes of basketball yesterday and could only laugh at our nations' representatives in that sport. They may as well have walked off the court for a break and pep talk when Puerto Rico had the ball, given their defensive strategy.

Anyone seen any hard numbers on attendance -- or lack thereof -- for the games? Hosting the Olympics is usually at a loss anyway, and Greece had to build an entire complex for it.

Just please tell me I didn't miss our olympic curling team yet...... I can't wait to watch the competition.

With out doing some research, I'd say the low attendance would be a combination of security concerns and overall economic hazards that going to a European country would entail for some people. You're not going to see a massive American turnout like we saw in Salt Lake and Atlanta games since it's just down the street.

The one factor I know about was that the first day of the women's gymnastics competition happened to fall on a Greek holiday, so the bulk of Greece who were going to Athens and watch didn't. I'm not sure if that affected the tourists from heading down.

As far as the Basketball thing goes, I'm insulted that the team we sent is half assing at the Olympics of all things. Either these guys wake up and put some effort and maybe we'll finish out decently (medal chances aren't looking pretty right now), or the collective country should get a chance to slap the 'Dream Team'

Now off to check out other logistical disasters...

I still look at the Olympics as the best of the best even if some of the events the US has less than perfect representatives performing. Some of the countries who have athletes in it..this is it for them, they win a gold their life is forever changed. I forget which country it was but if they win a gold they recieve for life 50k a year. Thats huge for someone who couldnt even muster enough money for a bigmac.

I was pissed the wrestling wont be televised till 2am in the morning but what ever..this will never change. Wonder who the hell decides what gets air during prime time and what doesnt..the comercials are cool at least ha.

Ibudin

I was reading in my home town newspaper that many US olympians won't even wear things out in public that would signify them as Americans (flags, colors. or the peacok logo for NBC) for fear of some hackling. That is really sad =(

Curling is winter Bise.

Curling is probably one of the most interesting games of the winter olympics. I hope that comment wasn't sarcastic, Bise. =P

Second issue is... I just can't believe how totally empty the seats are at all the events.
The excuse I heard was the venues were lightly attended because of some Greek holiday.

As for the US Basketball team. Someone didn't take a lot of time thinking about putting together a good team....looks like they just tried to get as many entertainers as possible.

Curling is winter Bise.
Suuuuuure it is.... next you will be telling me that Jamiaca has a bobsled team....

by no means belongs on a team showcasing our NBA players.
Well actually, if you remember after the first dream team they felt so bad about how soundly they beat everyone that they decided they weren't going to do it anymore and only pick college players/nba rookies.

BTW, the super secret conspiracy is that Puerto Rico is a US team too :)

That's bullshit cristo. The dream team didn't even win by that much! Some team even came within 50 points! Then again they did win some game like 120-40 lol. Even then though olympics are best of the best, if we have the best basketball player so be it. Why hold back and not win rather than win?

Why hold back and not win rather than win?

It makes for great resentement when one team goes out and absolutely embarasses another. That makes for bad relations between those countries. That, and its downright bad sportsmanship.
There were a few games last year in our hockey league where we won 9-1 or 8-2, where we could have wone by a whole lot more. There is no reason to embarass people like that. It takes the fun out of the win.

they weren't going to do it anymore and only pick college players/nba rookies.
Unfortunately this team isn't made up of NBA Rookies and College players. The people that assembled the team may have gotten some good players, but didn't assemble a very effective team. Couple that with the attitude most of these guys probably had, that they would coast to a gold....well, you lose to Puerto Rico by 20. :mad:

I hate basketball, its a joke. This performance prooves it. Anyone paid so much for so little education gets 'zero' respect from me.

Even if its sportsman like not to win by much and such I can understand that, but at least win or have a real team lol. Can you imagine if like KG, Kobe, Ben wallace, Tmac, duncan, bibby, christie, bowen, shaq etc was our team?

I'll be honest. I never "got" basketball.

didn't russia have the equivalent of a pro-hockey team out there forever? Playing against our college boys....

Sorta Bise. Every year (during the 80's-early 90's) Moscow Dynamo came over to play some exibition and college teams. Dynamo was the KGB team btw. They were fun to watch.

Christie? lol


Saw some skeet shooting results today lol. wth is skeet shooting doing in the Olympics?

I wonder if maybe the Olympics hasn't lost some of its significance in that it tends to overemphasize nationalism rather than individual achievement. Also, there are so many competitions in each sport during the the years between Olympics... you kind of have to ask... why are the Olympics so much more significant?

Can you imagine if like KG, Kobe
I imagine it would be a good deal tougher to fly back and forth between his rape trial and Greece than it was to fly to lakers games like he was able to do for a bit.

The US team is shitty behind the arc, the team is comprised of many players who like to play near the rim or drive in. Any team that plays zone defense will give USA problems. They tried to get better players like KG, Kobe, Kidd, T-mac, Shaq, and Bibby, but they declined or had things to do like a trial in Kobe's case or knee surgery in Kidd's case.

Well USA just beat Greece. USA still has no perimeter game to speak of. If greece would have done a better job on offensive and defensive rebounds they might have won.

If the US came from behind against Puerto Rico... would Greece help?

Let's blame Euro Liberals for all our concerns.Especially the French ones.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

The Rusian hockey teams of the 70's and 80's were the best team in the world. The players lived together ... worked together ... played together ... dominated the NHL in an exhibition earlier in the year .... Then some young American kids beat them .... The GREATEST sports victory ever IMO . THAT is why we should have amateaurs playing.. Pro's have the limelight and riches etc ... Let the kids have the spotlight every 4 years and bring the excitment back to the Olympics.

Yensid
Lifelong Redwing fan

The young can play in the olympics..15 year old swimmers, some in Gymnastics. The Olympics are suppose to the best your country has to offer and it should stay that way no matter what age. Excitement to me is seeing that 33 year old make a come back and earn a spot on the Olympic team as much as the 15 year old kicking ass.

Ibudin

I wonder if maybe the Olympics hasn't lost some of its significance in that it tends to overemphasize nationalism rather than individual achievement.Isn't it the first significance of Olympics? Competition between nationalities rather than individuals? Fight over sports rather than wars?
I thought it was the reasons first and modern Olympics were created. :)

when i see the olympics i see amateaurs, when i see the record holders in times competing in an event vs the pro's of each sport playing for each country, other countries sending their best to train in america, or getting coaches from america to better their already top athlete, the game is just completely cheapend, its boring, nothing is good about it, theres no national pride in having the professionals compete, i want to see some young amateaurs prove they have what it takes to compete, i want to see some young person prove they can rise above the average professional and do something awsome on very little experience. when its just pro's its like watching the same shit we watch during the year, its just a rehash, i don't even watch it anymore, hell i don't even care about it anymore

There are no pro-swimmers or pro-wrestlers (Grecro-Freestyle) so you are generalizing a little to much. Do you see Pro fighters fighting for the US in the olympics? or are you just talking about Basketball and Tennis?


Ibudin

Its probably been said elsewhere, but:

The Olympics are expensive. The whole experience. If you are going to pay alot for an event, its doubtful you will see all the seats filled minus the big events.

The Greeks hate Americans. We are NOT welcome in that country, yet if any country has the money to attend an Olympics, its Americans. The Olympics are not just the events, but the whole celebration of the culture of the hosting city, country and all those in attendance. So, why would you want to travel to a nation that has strong dislikes for Americans during a heightened terror threat level?

Every Olympics tries to outdo the previous one. Bigger, better stadiums. More events. More functions etc etc. Usually they try to make up for it by selling a lot of overpriced crap souveniers ( Hey Hotlanta residents..remember Izzy? :rolleyes: ), which people suck up like hot cakes if there is alot of Americans in attendance, which there isn't. Athens felt it was time for them to try and prove something. Prove what, though? They invented the damn Olympics! Isn't that all the clout they need?

Anyway, these games will probably be a huge flop for organizers in Athens and Greece on finacial terms, at least for the short term. Considering all the efforts that went into new venues and the big security issue, the lack of asses in seats and the lack of nicknacks selling is going to mean deep red. Still, the urban renewel, spucing up, modern digital communications networks, new buildings and the aggressive smog reduction program will greatly increase the quality of life in Athens and the world as a whole will have the experience of having run a incident free games during a high terror threat.
BTW...we usually have all the shitty players on the basketball team. All the best names in basketball are too narcissistic to be bothered, and really..does the rest of the world give a shit about basketball? The whole entire planet, with the exception of the United States, revolves around football or futbol(yes that soccer shit).

>There are no pro-swimmers or pro-wrestlers (Grecro-Freestyle) so you are generalizing a little to much. Do you see Pro fighters fighting for the US in the olympics? or are you just talking about Basketball and Tennis?

i'm talking about having the best of the best go at it, for swimmers they have the record time holders, they have the best wrestlers out there, they have pro basketball players out there (supposedly our best) i'd rather see some not so known people go at it

The Greeks hate Americans. We are NOT welcome in that country, yet if any country has the money to attend an Olympics, its Americans. The Olympics are not just the events, but the whole celebration of the culture of the hosting city, country and all those in attendance. So, why would you want to travel to a nation that has strong dislikes for Americans during a heightened terror threat level?It's been widely reported that the Greeks don't hate Americans. They do dislike American policy, but, as a rule, don't dislike Americans - they're bright enough people to make a distinction.

And on another subject, I'd simply like to see a distinction made. Obviously the Olympics are supposed to be an ametuer competition. I'm not sure when it was decided that any sort of paid athelete was allowed to compete -- it's something I've been meaning to look up -- but it needs to be one way or the other.

Either it's an ametuer competition (track and field), or it's the best each country has to offer (basketball, tennis). Make up your minds.

I believe during the 70's or 80's, Russia started putting pro athletes on their olympic teams, claiming they were actually employed as 'teachers.' I need to check up on my history, but I'm pretty sure that's where the change started. Anyone able to confirm/deny?

the original olympics employed athletes that got paid to compete, therefore making them "professional." The idea of the amateur athletes exclusively competing in the olympics was a concept invented when the modern games were started up 108 years ago. I can't go too indepth, but they had a huge article on it in Sports Illustrated 2 weeks ago.

edit to add: yeah roli, the russian hockey team and how they handled their "professionalism" is a big reason that the Dream Team was assembled and allowed to compete.

The change started in '92. Prior to this US teams were college players and Soviet Block teams were "professionals" (i.e. they were given a front job with government but were paid to play basketball, hockey, etc.). The change was made because of just this issue....they were really paid to play sports through the government where our athletes weren't allowed to make any money at all directly from their chosen sport.

"BTW...we usually have all the shitty players on the basketball team. All the best names in basketball are too narcissistic to be bothered, and really..does the rest of the world give a shit about basketball? The whole entire planet, with the exception of the United States, revolves around football or futbol(yes that soccer shit)."

This years team has 2 former NBA most valuable players and the rookie of the year (and runner up). Yes the rest of the world does care about basketball. In 2002, there were 211 US Olympic affliated National Basketball Federations...with an estimated 400million organized participants....second only to volleyball. Soccer was 4th with an estimated 242million and 204 federations.

The thing I'm most irritated at (although I find it hard to believe that they couldn't fill the stands for the various events - were they marketed? How much did they try to gouge on ticket prices?) is NBC's 6 channel, tape delayed, still-suck coverage. The women's team gymnastics final coverage, frankly, stank, with NBC not even bothering to show complete sets from the top non-American teams or *any* routines from individual performers who weren't on the top 3 teams, regardless of their quality, in favor of showing us yet more swimming preliminaries. Thank goodness I live on the border and can watch Azteca from Nuevo Laredo (not Telemundo, which is part of NBC's group) and see actual live coverage of events other than soccer...

That we're being forced to watch hours and hours of swimming, volleyball, and soccer preliminaries, or worse, pointless 'special interest' presentations on MSNBC about how great the athlete practice gyms are and hype for events to be shown later, while medals are being awarded in weightlifting, archery, judo, equestrian, cycling, and other events today (including swimming and shotput, which are being tape-delayed today despite happening at a reasonable hour) really chaps my ass. While you have to put up with some really cheesy jumping around from Azteca as well, they did a fabulous job on the men's all-around this afternoon, showing the entire last rotation without commercial break and moving around to catch as many contestants as possible... (they also showed the women's freestyle final swimming relay live today as well).

I'd sell my mother for a descrambled Internet feed from the BBC but suppose I'm out of luck there, alas... :)

As far as the men's basketball fiasco, I mean (cough) 'team', the US team managers/coaches could have actually tried to put together a *team*, that practiced together and learned to play by international rules, but they decided to rely on name power, forgetting the cesspool that the NBA has degenerated into thanks to the fruit of recruiting 'star' players right out of high school who never learn what the terms 'zone defense' and 'outside game' mean. I for one am happy to see them get their comeuppance - it's unlikely, but we can hope, that Team USA's disastrous showing at the Olympics might spur some examination of the rushing of teen phenoms into the NBA and subsequent collapse-into-crap of the actual game that is occurring here.

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Past Coercer - Autonomous Collective

I agree with Nydia!

/ducks
See? the Olympics are working ;)

I'm suprised no one has mentioned the total fuckup over the swimming relay and Phelps being substituted over the guy who was supposed to swim it(despite him being slower) in order to give him a shot at 9 golds.

Coverage sucks ass! One of the most frustrating things about them really..although today Paul Ham took a gold im gymnastics AFTER crashing to the judges table on a missed vault. Lucky bastard and another good old Wisconsinite!

Isn't it the first significance of Olympics? Competition between nationalities rather than individuals? Fight over sports rather than wars?
I thought it was the reasons first and modern Olympics were created.


Yeah it's the significance, but I think in the modern age, since the end of the USSR, nationalism is less and less important to people. The internet ties the world together a little closer as well.
If you had Islam, versus Christians, versus atheists, versus socialists, versus etc, you'd have a little more heat. Well that might not be true I don't know. Personally, I just don't get all excited over the we're better than you because we won more medals attitude. Maybe because I'm older, or maybe because there is no Soviet spectre. A lot of the other countries' athletes play on American professional teams, tons of them train in America, they compete against each other on a regular basis throughout the years. I'd rather see a guy like the 18 year old Czech who beat Federer win a medal than see an American win it. To me it's more about the individual stories than what country wins.

Anyone know the Iraqi soccer team's chances of beating Australia's this Saturday?

The key to Phelp's swimming is his torso, lol. When you see him with the rest of his teammates, you can't help but notice his 5-foot+ long torso and 1- foot long legs, lol.

Well, atleast we gave the world a chance in Basketball... Could you imagine if we just sent the Detroit Pistons to the Olympics ?? They would crush any team.. Problem with PRO athletes is the ego's ( Ego's are great and required a lot of times to make the pro's but not great for Olympics) . Ego's and Olympics don't mix IMO. I just think that it means more when a bunch of amateaurs win. Maybe because we see the pros all year long. Ask yourself this ... Is Alan Iverson the kind of person you want representing your country ? I sure don't. Even with amateaurs we compete for medals, how bad do we really need to dominate ??

Just my thoughts, doesn't mean I'm right or wrong

SinCityWiz ...

Coverage sucks ass! One of the most frustrating things about them really..although today Paul Ham took a gold im gymnastics AFTER crashing to the judges table on a missed vault. Lucky bastard and another good old Wisconsinite!Hamm's luck was primarily his ability to stick two legitimate 9.8+ scores on his final two apparatus. His final apparatus was, well, pretty damned impressive. [Ok, a few other guys blowing events didn't hurt, but admittedly, they were events where they had qualified on 9.4's anyway, and weren't expect to keep putting up 9.7's.]

There's some pissed of Koreans tonight.

I stayed up to watch him last night..wow that was amazing. Seeing as the Ham brothers live about 20 miles from me they have been in the healines here for couple years. Its good to see it all come together for them.

Now I am patiently waiting for..Dennis Hall, Jim Gruenwald (who actually beat Dennis Hall out for the 2000 Olympics), Garret Lowney to have their moment. Dennis Hall was a 4 time class A state champion in highschool (graduated the same year with him) and he never even went on to college wrestling..hes just an animal. All 3 are from Wisconsin. These 3 are not professionals but this is all they do is wrestle. Dennis being 33 years old..this will be his last chance at a gold.

Ibudin

Ego's and Olympics don't mix IMOHaha, did you catch the men's team volleyball USA vs Italy (I think)? Those were some cocky people. After the game ended they showed everyone at the net, and a fight almost broke out. All you could hear on the live coverage was, "Fuck you", "Motherfucker.." etc.

The testiest moment I've seen was a shot of the stands during the tennis match between Haas and Roddick. Every point you had either Americans or Germans going crazy in the stands and waving flags. They showed a couple of shots of the stands when Roddick began to take the match over, and the Germans were staring down the flag waving Americans with death in their eyes. There was a lot of heckling going on from the stands as well from the German side. It probably had something to do with Roddick's firey reactions and animation. Too bad Roddick isn't going to medal. Of the millionaire Olympians, he's the only one that was living in the dorm with the rest of the team rather than in a swank hotel. It really meant something to him to be in the Olympics.

Heh, I was paging through a People magazine and saw an 'article' on the US men and women's volleyball teams, though it really wasn't an article so much as a bunch of shitty photos. It seriously looked like a fucking new-age cologne commercial.

You want to see bad sportsmanship, check out the French and Italian fencing teams. The french just beat the Americans in a semifinal and the guy ran around the mat using his foil like a machine gun, then like a rifle shooting at the American guy and screaming at him. The American guy actually outscored him in their match but it was a team total btw. On a side note... damn I didn't know fencing was so popular in the black community lol. All the guys I saw fence were black.


The Italians beat the Russians in the semifinal and they all dogpiled on the mat with a bunch of hippie looking fans running out of the stands and dogpiling with them while the Russian guy stands there looking for his opponent so he can salute him.

I've seen a few programs where people have been taking kids off the street and teaching them how to fence; apparently, it's been very successful. I know one of the schools had olympic fencer leading it, and he was training some of the fencers for olympic level play. It'd be cool if that's where those guys were coming from.

links: http://www.peterwestbrook.org/
http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hp&cf=prev&id=1808416656

Ivan Lee, who like Smart is from New York and first learned fencing at the Peter Westbrook Foundation, defeated Gianpiero Pastore of Italy 15-9 in his opener, but then had to face four-time gold medalist Stanislav Pozdniakov. The Russian dominated the bout, taking 12 of the first 16 points. He won 15-9.



Westbrook, who competed in five Olympics for the United States, started a program in New York in 1991 to teach fencing to inner-city youth. Four of the 14 American fencers competing in Athens are products of his foundation. Westbrook is also the last U.S. fencer to win an Olympic medal -- a bronze in saber in 1984.


Right on.

Fun stuff. I think 60 minutes ran an article on his foundation. It was pretty interesting.

ATHENS, Greece -- International judo officials won't penalize a two-time champion from Iran who reportedly said he wouldn't fight an Israeli opponent, then showed up overweight for the bout.

Arash Miresmaeili, a favorite in the under 146-pound (66 kg) class, failed to meet the weight requirement Sunday for a bout with Israel's Ehud Vaks and was disqualified.

The International Judo Federation investigated and concluded Thursday he didn't miss his weight to avoid the bout. The federation has no rule for penalizing an overweight athlete.

Iran does not recognize Israel and bans any contact with the Jewish state.


Niiiiice.

Okay, NBC is showing the 10,000 meters event right now as 'live'. I watched this event in its entirety on TV Azteca 45 minutes ago (btw the women's 5,000 meters has already concluded also, which NBC is now hyping as coming up - live), and yes it was an exciting race, with the Ugandans challenging midway through and the Ethopians putting on a truly incredible kick at the end (I won't spoil whether Selassie won his 3rd gold though :) ).

I don't care, although it is annoying, that NBC chooses to tape delay everything so that they can write a script for it and hype it up. But when they claim that events are being televised live when they aren't, just so that they can add drama... (and the mention on NBC that they'd show the 10,000 meters *live* later in the afternoon came within seconds of the race's exciting conclusion) it's disingenous and just wrong. Seriously, isn't there any action that can be taken against them for this?

Regards,
Nydia

maybe it's live in a different timezone? :(

D'oh! Hamm loses by a 1/10th.

Here's 700 or so articles (http://news.google.com/?ncl=http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/oly/2751333) on it...

Quick version? The Korean's bars routine should have had a potential 10.0 instead of 9.9 for difficulty. Judges now agree.

This is why gymnastics, diving, etc, are and always will be ridiculous "sports." If I was Hamm I'd walk over and hand the guy his medal.

I don't know what discrediting them as sports has anything to do with it. Judges/referees/umpires/etc make mistakes that change the results of events/games in professional sports all the time, whether it be mis-fouls or whatever. It happens in the NBA, NFL etc - all of your globally acknowledged sports. The only difference is the players/coaches get fined for calling the referees out on making a bad call and the refs will never admit that they made a mistake.

What is a sport anyway?
There's a whole bag of semantics for you. Personally I consider Baseball ridiculous - and especially as an olympic sport, whereas gymnastics is the most natural sport in the world - it's the quest to perfect your body.

I think that's a good point except there is a difference between the jobs of "Judges" versus "officials." Judges decide who wins.


Do I think that gymnasts are great athletes? For the most part. Do I think that it's a real sport? No. Every competition its the same crap. They talk constantly about building up your team score by each performer doing a little bit better than the previous one, and therefore playing a psychological trick on the judges. Yeah thats a great sport. People are rewarded more points for having a reputation for scoring high. Yeah great sport. In a diving event the other day I saw scores ranging from 6.5 to 9.0 on a dive. People get into the competitions based on reputation, and are scored based largely on reputation.

I've always said as well, that any competition that a 14 year old girl can dominate is not a sport. That includes ice skating and gymnastics. Is gymnastics an excuse to give small people a sport?

So in other words, you have nothing against the sport - but rather against the way they decide who's the winner.

Gymnastics is the domination of your own potential rather than the domination over someone elses, that's the difference between gymnastics and most other sports. The reason that 14 year old dominates is because she's dedicated her entire life to perfecting her body and her control over it. If that isn't worthy of an award I don't know what is.

Also, if you take a look at the male gymnasts, you'd notice their bodies. Small people? Fuck, I work out 7 times a week, their biceps LIMP are like mine FLEXED. Gymnasts have hands down the most perfect bodies there are out there. And they pay the price with arthritis and likewise very early in their life.

Yes, other athletes work hard to win. Yes they pay a high price. But none work harder, since a younger age, or pay a higher price than gymnasts.

Hold yourself up even like they do weather its with one hand on the floor or grab a hold of 2 ropes and kick your feet out completely virtical ..then you can say its not a sport.

Ibudin

Hold yourself up even like they do weather its with one hand on the floor or grab a hold of 2 ropes and kick your feet out completely virtical ..then you can say its not a sport.Yeah, the next guy who wants to bag on these particular "athletes" better do it from an inverted iron cross.

Do you need an actual picture of them doing inverted iron cross while typing?

The reason that 14 year old dominates is because she's dedicated her entire life to perfecting her body and her control over it.


She's 14 years old with suppressed hormones from physical training. Yeah that's a great athlete... Most of them are over the hill by 19. If it took just physical training and perfection of your body, then people should be dominating in their physically mature prime right? Why don't they just have a contest to see who can play hopscotch the best, at least it wouldn't be decided by judges and rely on reputation. For god sakes they award points to dancing elements in the floor routine... is ballroom dancing and tango in the Olympics now too? I hope not.

Yeah wrestlers are just as physically fit and thats a real sport. I don't disagree that they are physically fit, but you might as well make bodybuilding an Olympic sport. Same dumb judging system. Try doing the same moves they're doing and be a full sized person. In college I volunteered at a local high school to keep the weight room open after school for the kids. I worked out for two years with the wrestling coach from the school who was 5'4''. Our lifts were similar and proportionate and my goal was to be able to do a "flag" which he showed me the first day I worked out with him. A "flag" is where you grab a vertical bar and kick your body out horizontal and hold it there. I could never do it, and it would take at least twice the training that it takes him for me to be able to do it. The reason? He's tiny, I'm not. You have to be small to be competitive in gymnastics. It doesnt disqualify it from being a sport. It doesn't mean they're not in great shape or don't work hard. The fact that it's judged like a beauty contest or bodybuilding disqualify it in my mind from being a real sport. When you have the announcers regularly admitting the biased and flawed nature of the judging, and when every event is marred by controversy over the judging... I disqualify it.

She's 14 years old with suppressed hormones from physical training. Yeah that's a great athlete... Most of them are over the hill by 19. If it took just physical training and perfection of your body, then people should be dominating in their physically mature prime right?The US Women's Olympic Gymnastics team's average age is 20. (Note, if you add their YEARS only and divide by number of members, they average 19.8. You'll of course realize that if you have a dozen 15 year olds, their average age will be 15.5 -- so I'll stand by my average of 20.) They have two members (Hatch and Bhardwaj) who were old enough to drink LAST Olympics and are 26 and 25 now.

Hatch and Bhardwaj, who are 12 years and three Olympics older than your 14 year old hyperbole were part of this year's Silver medal winning team.

Don't forget that the US MENS team averages nearly 25 years old with no member younger than 21 and with Blaine Wilson being THIRTY. Turns out they aren't too shabby either.

Oh, and sepaking of Bhardwaj, she's kind of a hottie. Guys? Nydia?

The rules for scoring in gymnastics are fairly rigid too. There isn't a whole lot of room for interpretation; the scores are entirely based on technical merit, so unless I'm misinformed about how bodybuilding and beauty pageants are scored, any comparison to them is invalid. About all that's left up to a judgement call is whether something meets the specific criteria for a type of form break, and even then the judges don't get to decide how many points to take off as a result. The rules are revised every 4 years, in part to make sure that possibilities for bias are minimized.

The controversy was over a failure to follow the rules. A given routine has a static base score, and they failed to use the correct one.

You don't seem to get it though. Gymnastics isn't about being physically "fit". It's about mastering your body. Those are two different avenues altogether.

Also, every sport has a set of rules to determine the winner and every sport has judges to enforce those rules so that the right person wins. Doesn't matter if you go to american football (was that a justified flag?), football (ohh that's a harsh carding), wrestling (he was pinned for *exactly* the right amount of time, now why did the ref miss it?) or gymnastics (that was in fact a 10.0 programme, not a 9.9 and thus the gold was awarded to the wrong athlete). The human factor can not be ignored no matter where you go.

I suppose you think the refs don't have much to say in, say football, or basketball. But they do. A bad ref can cost a team the game. A *bought* ref will cost them the game.

I agree Kiv,
Gymnastics is a sport of grace and power. The pushing the limits of what the human body is capable of while at the same making it look awe-inspiring.

She's 14 years old with suppressed hormones from physical training. Yeah that's a great athlete... Most of them are over the hill by 19.
By this standard marathon runners, bicyclists, or hell most sports that take great physical endurance for women can be lumped in. Your second point has already been addressed by Palimax.

at least it wouldn't be decided by judges and rely on reputation.
#1 - Their initial maximum scored is based on elements in their submitted routine.

#2 - Reputation figures in to some degree...I'm in agreement that it shouldn't. A lot of sports...an awful lot of sports have officials that are, to some degree, influenced by reputation of the team, country or players involved.

#3 - So we shouldn't count any sport that uses judges as a sport. Diving, Boxing, Equestrian, judo, wrestling, or any of the many other that use judges should be tossed...they could all be influenced by reputation. :)

For god sakes they award points to dancing elements in the floor routine
Floor excercise is as much about grace as tumbling. The dancing elements add to other elements of the routing to show body control.

Try doing the same moves they're doing and be a full sized person.
Try playing basketball, volleyball, swimming, football, etc. at 5'4". Not sure why you really included this in your post.

The fact that it's judged like a beauty contest or bodybuilding disqualify it in my mind from being a real sport. When you have the announcers regularly admitting the biased and flawed nature of the judging, and when every event is marred by controversy over the judging... I disqualify it.
Your statement is based upon a mis-informed initial statement...it's not judged like a beauty contest or bodybuilding. It's not judged simply on aestetics. Difficulty of the technical elements, performance of those elements (hieght, form, landing, etc.) are the major items judged. I hope you reconsider....ever sport has it's controversy over officiating.

#3 - So we shouldn't count any sport that uses judges as a sport. Diving, Boxing, Equestrian, judo, wrestling, or any of the many other that use judges should be tossed...they could all be influenced by reputation.


Aliwon summed it up pretty well here with just the boxing example.

Didn't womens tennis get dominated by mid-teen's for a while also? I could be wrong.

Gymnastics is a sport. The inverse of Winter's argument of (and I'm paraphrasing here)... being tiny makes is easier for them to that and thus lessens the 'sportiness' of it.... so being huge and playing basketball makes it easier and thus makes it less relavent?

Or maybe I read your post incorrectly.

For the record, I think it's a "competition," not a "sport," but that's just part of my personal definition of what I think "sport" entails -- in this case, I think competitions have INDIRECT physical competition, while sports have DIRECT physical compeition.

Yes, by my standards golf is merely a competition, but that doesn't make it any less (or more) exciting.

Just because gymnists can't body-check each other doesn't make them not fantastic atheletes.

I will , however, testify that in general male gymnatic gold medal winners cannot act what-so-ever .... American Anthem / Bart Conner's anyone?

Bart was a cross betweena gymnast and a ninja LOL!

Hehe...they tried it again it was so successful...remember Kurt Thomas in GymKata...OMG was that horrid.

Let's not go into the "what is a sport" conversation....in never leads anywhere :')

By the 1996 Olympics, though, even Olga Korbut would have been older than most in a sport where the average age of the competitors was about 15. Olga's famous backflip wouldn't have impressed the judges either. Now, women gymnasts perform three backflips in a row without blinking.

Bela Karolyi, the charismatic coach of the Romanian team and the 1996 US "Magnificent Seven", has been credited with increasing the level of performance while decreasing the average age of the performer. In 1976 the world was stunned with the flawless performance of 14-year-old Romanian Nadia Comaneci, who he had coached. He defected to the U.S. shortly after, and took his gymnastics philosophy with him. The standard was younger, shorter, and skinnier. The results spoke for themselves: in 1984, 16-year-old Mary Lou Retton won the gold medal under his tutelage. His team of tiny, perky and fearless 15-17 year olds won the U.S. a gold in 1996. The most endearing image was of the tiny, squeaky-voiced Kerri Strug performing a near-perfect vault with a sprained ankle to secure the gold for the U.S. team.

But these tiny, prepubescent girls were paying a price for this chance of a lifetime. Kerri Strug's career came to a halt after a long struggle with anorexia. In 1991 15-year-old Olympic hopeful Julissa Gomez died after breaking her neck after a misstep on her vault. A fellow gymnast, 15-year-old Christy Henrich, developed anorexia as she struggled to qualify for the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona. She retired at 18, without a medal, and died last year at 22 weighing less than 50 pounds. In a sport where the careers are painfully short, many of these young gymnasts are subjected to the combined pressures of ambitious coaches and parents, and the ideal of the tiny wonder that was Nadia Comaneci. Unlike their male counterparts, who have to grow into their roles; "women" gymnasts are encouraged to stop growing.




Age minimums need to be put in place if womens gymnastics is going to remain a viable Olympic Sport. The fourteen and fifteen year old gymnasts are being exploited. Parents find it easier to control kids at that age. Coaches find them easier to control. And audiences have come to enjoy the sight of pixie-like waifs performing unbelievable feats. Gymnastics is dangerous, physically demanding, and mentally grueling. Children shouldn't be forced through the gauntlet of training before they are able to prepare themselves mentally for the difficulties of six-to-eight hour days in the gym. Nor should they be encouraged to stunt their growth for the greater glory of the stage-hogging coaches such as Karolyi, who prides himself in his ability to manipulate these "little suckers" (as he has been quoted as calling them.) If anything, the age minimum should be increased to 18.


Take a look at Svetlana Khorkina? Is that a great athlete? She's anorexic.


The rules for scoring in gymnastics are fairly rigid too.

Thanks for the laugh. That's why they explained last night at the beginning of the apparatus competitions that when they randomly pick the performance order everyone prays to be last or next to last because the scores always rise as the competition goes on. Rigid my ass. It's a matter of interpretation, and every single competition is filled with controversy.

Yes the men are older and are good athletes. You keep focusing on that aspect to avoid what I keep repeating as the real issue... just because the participants are athletes doesn't make it a great sport. It's a controversy filled beauty pageant.


The human factor can not be ignored no matter where you go.


It's a completely different question. Refs, umpire's, officials do interpret things differently, but your team adjusts to it... its part of the game. Judges, DECIDE who wins in gymnastics. If a ref is calling a game tight you adjust how you play. If an ump is not giving you the outside corner, you adjust how you pitch. If a gymnastics judge makes a subjective judgment (which they all do) that one guy's routine was prettier than yours... you lose.


By this standard marathon runners, bicyclists, or hell most sports that take great physical endurance for women can be lumped in.

Eh? Female marathon runners are 4 foot 9 inch little girls?


#2 - Reputation figures in to some degree...I'm in agreement that it shouldn't. A lot of sports...an awful lot of sports have officials that are, to some degree, influenced by reputation of the team, country or players involved.


Judges and refs are not the same thing.


#3 - So we shouldn't count any sport that uses judges as a sport. Diving, Boxing, Equestrian, judo, wrestling, or any of the many other that use judges should be tossed...they could all be influenced by reputation. :)


Diving... yes I agree. Some equestrian like dressage... yes I agree. Judo and wrestling, officials participate in an entirely different capacity. There's no comparison. Synchronized diving, synchronized swimming, trampoline... get rid of them.:)

Floor excercise is as much about grace as tumbling. The dancing elements add to other elements of the routing to show body control.

So why not ballroom dancing, break dancing, tango, foxtrot, popping, synchronized linedancing, pole dancing... okay well pole dancing would be a great sport.


Try playing basketball, volleyball, swimming, football, etc. at 5'4". Not sure why you really included this in your post.

Try doing it at 4'6". Sure you have great body control.. you're a midget... it's 100 times easier when you're a midget. Okay maybe I'm prejudiced against short people oh well.


Your statement is based upon a mis-informed initial statement...it's not judged like a beauty contest or bodybuilding. It's not judged simply on aestetics. Difficulty of the technical elements, performance of those elements (hieght, form, landing, etc.) are the major items judged. I hope you reconsider....ever sport has it's controversy over officiating.

It IS judged like a beauty contest and bodybuilding. It's judged on aesthetics completely


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All of the criteria are subjective and unmeasureable by other means. You meet certain criteria of performance with technical elements, then its up to the judges to decide the subjective value of how you performed it. Witness last night's gold in the pommel horse by the asian guy who performed last and therefore beat the Mariscus guy who the broadcasters, the crowd, and the gymnasts watching all thought was ridiculous. Did you see the reactions of the gymnasts standing in the background when they showed the score? No one could believe it.

You can say every sport has its controversies over officiating... and you would be right. If you have followed gymnastics at all though, you'd have to agree that it's consistently melodramatic and debateable... why? Because every competition hinges as much on the performance of the judges as on the performance of the athletes.


Gymnastics is a sport. The inverse of Winter's argument of (and I'm paraphrasing here)... being tiny makes is easier for them to that and thus lessens the 'sportiness' of it.... so being huge and playing basketball makes it easier and thus makes it less relavent?


I think a tall, well trained and fit athlete is better than a short athlete yes. A competition that necessitates you being far below average in size is less of a sport in my mind, unless you have size categories like in boxing and wrestling.


Yes, by my standards golf is merely a competition, but that doesn't make it any less (or more) exciting.

Just because gymnists can't body-check each other doesn't make them not fantastic atheletes.

Golf has measureable standards, gymnastics doesn't. Again... yes male gymnasts are great athletes... I still don't think a lot of female gymnasts I would call fantastic athletes.. but oh well.


I will , however, testify that in general male gymnatic gold medal winners cannot act what-so-ever .... American Anthem / Bart Conner's anyone?


Janet Jones anyone?
http://www.celebritystorm.com/celebs/thumbs/JanetJonesGretzky/1.jpg (http://www.celebritystorm.com/celebs/pics/JanetJonesGretzky/index.html)

That's why they explained last night at the beginning of the apparatus competitions that when they randomly pick the performance order everyone prays to be last or next to last because the scores always rise as the competition goes on.
WHO explained it? Commentators? I've heard some rather ridiculous claims made by commentators, particularly ones who weren't former gymnasts themselves. Often it seems they are just trying to add drama to make it more interesting to the casual viewer, especially when the audience is wider than normal such as for the Olympics. It makes no more difference than, say, which side of the court a tennis player starts a match on, or which side of the field a football team starts on.

Ever looked at some of the scoring rules yourself? (Well, I really shouldn't bother to ask...if I remember right they're defined in a $50 book that only gymnasts and coaches have a reason to own. My sister was a level 10 gymnast who competed briefly at the national level. This is the only reason I had the chance to see the rules myself.) They're well defined and highly detailed, with very little room for judgement calls--no larger than the leeway referees have in basketball, football, etc. Scoring IS strictly based on technical merit. Clean execution results in full points, as long as you follow all the rules to the letter; you don't get any points at all for looking good while doing it. Deductions are all spelled out and have fixed values.

Edit: Just to be sure there's no confusion, rhythmic gymnastics is entirely separate from the gymnastics I'm talking about. I have no idea how rhythmic gymnastics is scored.

Soooo... Nemov does a high bar routine that rocks, and two judges give him in explicably low scores... and the crowd complains so much and won't shut up... so the judges get together and carefully calculate so that they can give him a just enough higher score as to not effect the standings. What a sham. Then Paul Hamm goes up and does a routine which the commentators agree was not as good as his 9.812 score from the previous competition... and he gets a 9.812 to put him in first place.

http://www.livingroom.org.au/olympics/archives/cat_gymnastics.html


I was trying to block it out and get into a zone," Hamm said. "It shows our sport is a subjective sport. People are going to have different opinions."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5784651/





Bela's world of controversy - Sydney wasn't the first Olympics to see Bela left outside of the inner coach's circle - nor was it the first for controversy.

In 1984 when Bela Karolyi coached USAs first gymnastic gold medalist Mary Lou Retton, he again was not allowed on the coaching floor. This was reserved only for the official U.S. Coaching squad and so Bela sat outside of the press barricades.

As you may recall he jumped across that barricade when Mary Lou had locked in her gold medal with her final victorious vault. It appeared to be completely impromtu - but the reality was that he had been practicing his leap over the barriacade. Ellen Berger, the then head of the technical committee for the Olympics had warned that if he jumped the barricade or appeared on the floor she would enforce the rules a nd deduct three-tenths of a point from Retton's score. Bela said she wouldn't dare.

"She doesn't have the guts to do it here with 10,000 screaming Americans."

He was right - she didn't in 1984. But in 1998 she got even.

The Soviet Union and Romanian teams were pretty much a lock for Gold and Silver, but the real competition was in the Bronze medal where East Germany and the USA gymnasts were in a tight competition. Ellen Berger - the then eAst German president of the Technical Comitted for the FIG caught the Americans in an unfortunate error. U.S. alternate Rhonda Faehn was setting up and removing the spring board for Kelly Garrison-Steves on the bars. The rules required that once the springboard was removed, she was to step off the competition platform to the bench. Caught in the emotions of the event, Faehn forgot and stood on the edge of the podium. Berger called the error, and demanded a rarely enforced rule be applied. The result was a penalty of .5 (five tenths). Team USA lost the bronze to the East Germans by .3 tenths. Bela was fuiros and called Berger a "Cow".






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http://www.olympic-eurogym.demon.nl/russia/iva/iva02cup0bb.jpg

Look... a world class athlete. Normal 14 year old.

Where to begin:

#1 - It has been shown throughout this thread that you do not have to be an emciated 14 year old to be a world class medal winning gymnast...please read up.

#2 - Child abuse is child abuse whether the kid is a gymnast or not. I do agree that the governing bodies of gymnastics need to investigate programs that exploit children...but there power to do so are extremely limited. An age minimum would be a good step but some countries would just lie about the ages and produce paperwork to support it, so I don't know how effective it would be. Key quote "Children shouldn't be forced", I whole heartedly agree.

#3 - Judges score are not completly subjective like you paint. Everything isn't black or white, Winter. The Gymnast turns in the routine they will be performing. The routine is evaluated for technical merit and a base top score. The performance is judged by completion of the moves, adherance to the submitted routine, form, height and yes some subjectivity (including politics which drives me nuts). I agree Nemov should have won, but here's what we don't know. Did he add something to the routine that wasn't submitted? Did he miss a move that was supposed to be performed? The judging in the olympics by all accounts has been poor (compared to other competitions and previous olympics), but that isn't going to stop me from watching it....these are amazing athletes.

#4 Judges and refs are not the same thing. - Both officiate a sporting event or competition. Both can effect the outcome. Both are falible. Point?

#5 Eh? Female marathon runners are 4 foot 9 inch little girls? No but heavy endurance events supress female hormones and frequently make females infertile and non-menstrual. Have you looked at some of these women, they look way....way...way...less healthy than gymnasts. That was my point. Granted they are generally not under as much control as young gymnasts.....but not always.

#6 Diving... yes I agree. Some equestrian like dressage... yes I agree. Judo and wrestling, officials participate in an entirely different capacity. There's no comparison. Synchronized diving, synchronized swimming, trampoline... get rid of them.
In Judo and Wrestling they decide the outcome...they decide if a move scores...they can be subjective. Maybe not as subjective. Personally I'm not a fan of sync swimming or equestrian, however they are well supported and participated events in some parts of the world. Equestrian is way bigger than I realized here in the states. I don't deny them the right to have it be an olympic event...but I don't have to watch it. :)

#7 So why not ballroom dancing, break dancing, tango, foxtrot, popping, synchronized linedancing, pole dancing... okay well pole dancing would be a great sport.
I agree, pole dancing would be a great sport...can I judge...pleeb!!:)

#8 It IS judged like a beauty contest and bodybuilding. It's judged on aesthetics completely It's not. If you can't understand that, we might as well agree to disagree and leave it that. You meet certain criteria of performance with technical elements You destroyed your point right there....it's not completely subjective.

#9 If you have followed gymnastics at all though, you'd have to agree that it's consistently melodramatic and debateable... why?I could say similar things about officiating in many sports . Hell I've seen hockey games that are completely governed by the whim of the officials. If they call a tight game skill teams win, if they "let things go" the more physical, thug team wins. Same could be said about basketball, and sometimes football, soccer, boxing, etc. Officials can effect the outcome based of subjectivity as well. Maybe not to the same degree all the time, but they can, and do, none the less.

What I would like to see is more explanation of the score and how it's arrived at. Give audience/ announcers information on the planned routine before it's performed, have each judge's notes on deductions displayed with the score. The managing officials review each score for mathematical or logical errors before it's submitted. In short, the judges need to back up the scores they give and communicate them better. Will it solve all the judging problems, no....there's still a lot of subjectivity involved. But it could help to avoid the moronic errors that we have seen in this Olympics.

I think a tall, well trained and fit athlete is better than a short athlete yes. A competition that necessitates you being far below average in size is less of a sport in my mind, unless you have size categories like in boxing and wrestling.
..and yes, you are a bigot against people of lesser stature.

I respect your opinion, but whole-heartedly disagree with it.
-----

So let's sum it up.

1. I say judging isn't completely subjective, you say it is. The facts say it isn't....believe what you want.
2. You say kids are abused in gymnastics, I agree and agree more needs to be done to stop it.
3. You say you have to be an emciated 14 year old to be a great gymnast..and have been proven wrong.
4. You say a tall athlete is better than a short athlete...umm okay :rolleyes:
5. We both think Pole Dancing should be an Olympic event. :)
6. You don't gymnastics is a great sport...I understand you're reasoning and respect your personal opinion...I think it is.

Yeah. They're all malnourished and whipped bondage slaves.

Try doing it at 4'6". Sure you have great body control.. you're a midget... it's 100 times easier when you're a midget. Okay maybe I'm prejudiced against short people oh well.
Powerful argument! ;)

I have a friend who loves volleyball. His height is "average", a good ole 5'11". After years of practice, his jump abilities were good enough to match taller players. But yet, he couldn't compete with them at block or attack, and was often set in defense or pass duty in his team. Why? Because being "short" in volleyball standards was delaying him during a jump. A tall guy could jump twice at the same height, and my friend was still getting his impulse for the second jump.

Is volleyball less a sport because it is favorable for tall people?

And it's not only about height.
Another example, with stadium sports. One criteria to select future athletes is their capability to "recover your breath" after a physical effort (between each high jumps for example). And this criteria is very hard to train, it's a combinaison of lung, heart and genes.
High jump is less a sport because some people can recover faster and more efficiently?

And I could go on and on, most of sports and competitions favorise a kind of physical aspects.

Geez that was a long comment for a small argument. :P

Okay... where to begin.


#1 - It has been shown throughout this thread that you do not have to be an emciated 14 year old to be a world class medal winning gymnast...please read up.


I have said throughout that male gymnasts are good athletes, with the caveat that they have to be very short to extremely short.... which IN MY OPINION, makes them less of a real athlete. If you look at Olympics history, before this year the average age of female gymnasts since 1972 was about 16 years old, reaching a low point in 1996 of 15 years old on average. The average height and weight of female gymnasts in the 80s and 90s was 4'9" and 83 pounds. If you can't take a look at the little freakshows they trot out there even now when the minimum age is 16 and the average ages has jumped up by 3 years over the 2000 Olympics, and see that the rarities are the ones that look anywhere close to their age or "normal" then I don't know what to tell you.




But these tiny, prepubescent girls were paying a price for this chance of a lifetime. Kerri Strug's career came to a halt after a long struggle with anorexia. In 1991 15-year-old Olympic hopeful Julissa Gomez died after breaking her neck after a misstep on her vault. A fellow gymnast, 15-year-old Christy Henrich, developed anorexia as she struggled to qualify for the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona. She retired at 18, without a medal, and died last year at 22 weighing less than 50 pounds. In a sport where the careers are painfully short, many of these young gymnasts are subjected to the combined pressures of ambitious coaches and parents, and the ideal of the tiny wonder that was Nadia Comaneci. Unlike their male counterparts, who have to grow into their roles; "women" gymnasts are encouraged to stop growing.




On average, young female athletes in most sports are taller than individuals in the non-athletic population. For example, female basketball players, volleyball players, tennis players, rowers, and swimmers are taller than average, from the 10th year of life onwards. However, female figure skaters, ballet dancers, and gymnasts are usually shorter than the average female during childhood and early adolescence (1). Ballet dancers actually catch up with the regular population in late adolescence, but gymnasts do not. In addition, today’s female gymnasts are actually shorter, compared with the fabled gymnasts of 20 years ago (2). Female athletes in most sports also tend to be heavier than females in the population at large, but this is partially a consequence of their greater height; in fact, female athletes tend to have lower percentages of body fat and greater percentages of lean tissue, compared with non-athletic women. Unlike most athletes, female gymnasts actually have lighter body masses than females in the general population (as do female figure skaters, ballet dancers, and distance runners). However, gymnasts and figure skaters possess appropriate body masses for their heights, while ballet dancers and distance runners do not.

Is it the training that makes them smaller?

Thus, female gymnasts are not underweight for their heights, but they are unusually small in stature, compared with both other athletes and the general population. Does the diminutive size of gymnasts increase their risk of injury? Does their reduced size mean that their skeletal systems are also less well-developed, compared with female athletes in other sports? As it turns out, the “skeletal ages” of gymnasts are often average or “on time for chronological age” during childhood, but by late adolescence most gymnasts’ skeletons may be classified as late-maturing. Gymnasts also tend to reach menarche later than young women in the general population, and later than young females in other sports. For example, young female swimmers have skeletal ages which are average or advanced in childhood and adolescence, compared with sedentary females(3). To summarise, female gymnasts tend to be short, they begin to menstruate later than usual, and their skeletons are rather non-robust. What is responsible for all of this?

Some sports-medicine experts believe that specific – but not well-identified – characteristics of gymnastics training do indeed hinder growth. For example, researchers from Deakin University in Australia and Western Washington University in the United States who analysed 35 clinical reports (cross-sectional, historical, and prospective cohort studies) found that élite-level gymnasts may indeed be at increased risk of adverse effects on growth(4). This group found that adolescent-female-gymnasts’ skeletal systems matured at decreased rates during periods of regular gymnastics training, but then began to catch up during periods of reduced training or else retirement, suggesting that something about gymnastics training was affecting growth and maturation. The Deakin-Washington researchers found that the greater the number of years of gymnastic training, the greater the reduction in growth; they also found that gymnasts tended to have more problems with their spinal growth, compared with elongation of the bones in the arms and legs (5).



#2 - Child abuse is child abuse whether the kid is a gymnast or not. I do agree that the governing bodies of gymnastics need to investigate programs that exploit children...but there power to do so are extremely limited. An age minimum would be a good step but some countries would just lie about the ages and produce paperwork to support it, so I don't know how effective it would be. Key quote "Children shouldn't be forced", I whole heartedly agree.

There is an age minimum... please read up.

#3 - Judges score are not completly subjective like you paint. Everything isn't black or white, Winter. The Gymnast turns in the routine they will be performing. The routine is evaluated for technical merit and a base top score. The performance is judged by completion of the moves, adherance to the submitted routine, form, height and yes some subjectivity (including politics which drives me nuts). I agree Nemov should have won, but here's what we don't know. Did he add something to the routine that wasn't submitted? Did he miss a move that was supposed to be performed? The judging in the olympics by all accounts has been poor (compared to other competitions and previous olympics), but that isn't going to stop me from watching it....these are amazing athletes.

The judging has been right on par with all gymnastics competitions. The controversy is heightened because its the Olympics, but it happens in every competition. It's all subjective. All the elements are judges subjectively by the judges as to how well they think the person did in terms of height, control, power, artistic impression, etc... But hey.. at least the audience gets to participate in the scoring.

#4
Quote:
Judges and refs are not the same thing.
- Both officiate a sporting event or competition. Both can effect the outcome. Both are falible. Point?



Okay lets say two teams play a basketball game, then at the end, a panel of referees all give their impression of the score of the game, factoring in their impression of how artistically each team scored, technical merit, required elements. Oh yeah then they decide who wins and adjust the score based on how pissed the audience gets. Then referees are like judges.

#5
Quote:
Eh? Female marathon runners are 4 foot 9 inch little girls?
No but heavy endurance events supress female hormones and frequently make females infertile and non-menstrual. Have you looked at some of these women, they look way....way...way...less healthy than gymnasts. That was my point. Granted they are generally not under as much control as young gymnasts.....but not always.


Distance runners in general look pretty unhealthy imo. However, Olympic distance runners have had a much higher average age, height, and weight than gymnasts and ... there aren't a group of judges following them along deciding who wins based on subjective criteria.

#6
Quote:
Diving... yes I agree. Some equestrian like dressage... yes I agree. Judo and wrestling, officials participate in an entirely different capacity. There's no comparison. Synchronized diving, synchronized swimming, trampoline... get rid of them.
In Judo and Wrestling they decide the outcome...they decide if a move scores...they can be subjective. Maybe not as subjective. Personally I'm not a fan of sync swimming or equestrian, however they are well supported and participated events in some parts of the world. Equestrian is way bigger than I realized here in the states. I don't deny them the right to have it be an olympic event...but I don't have to watch it. :)


Okay if you want to claim that judo and wrestling officials can compare at all to gymnastics judges, I can't argue with you. You have a right to your opinion, as messed up as I think it is. There is a tiny bit of subjectivity based on control.

#8
Quote:
It IS judged like a beauty contest and bodybuilding. It's judged on aesthetics completely
It's not. If you can't understand that, we might as well agree to disagree and leave it that.

According to the definition of aesthetics, yes it is.

Quote:
You meet certain criteria of performance with technical elements
You destroyed your point right there....it's not completely subjective.


I didn't. Even the performance of the technical elements is judged subjectively as to the amount of control exhibited, how artistically they are tied in with other elements, etc...

#9

They can't give an explanation for each score during the competition because they're too impression based and subjective. They would have to explain, well I think it was a great routine and a little better than the routine before so after taking all this other crap into account I have to give him at least a 9.7 because I gave that guy a 9.7 and they had the same starting score of their routine... besides I've seen this guy perform this routine 10 times and last time I gave him a 9.7 and he did it much better this time. If you don't think that that's a huge part of the thinking they use in their scoring, you're kidding yourself.

Again.. I won't argue if you want to believe that other sports are anywhere near as subjective in terms of referees versus judges. Like your precious judges, you are entitled to your opinion.

..and yes, you are a bigot against people of lesser stature.
I guess I am.

1. I say judging isn't completely subjective, you say it is. The facts say it isn't....believe what you want.
2. You say kids are abused in gymnastics, I agree and agree more needs to be done to stop it.
3. You say you have to be an emciated 14 year old to be a great gymnast..and have been proven wrong.
4. You say a tall athlete is better than a short athlete...umm okay :rolleyes:
5. We both think Pole Dancing should be an Olympic event. :)
6. You don't gymnastics is a great sport...I understand you're reasoning and respect your personal opinion...I think it is.

1. If you watch the competitions you will see evidence that it is, and you'll hear athletes such as Paul Hamm say it is.
2. I didn't say they are abused I don't think. I just don't think that little kids should be competing in the Olympics and revered as great athletes, cuz they're not imo. If it's something that it takes a little girl to win at, it's not a valid sport, it's a carnival sideshow. It's better than it was since they instituted a minimum age, but look at it this way, and please think about it a moment.... By instituting a minimum age of 16 for the "senior" competitions, what they are doing is making an artificial line that stops half of the best "athletes" from competing with the older girls even though, according to the rules of the sport, they're better than the older, more developed girls. So you have a "sport" where you have to make a rule to keep the prepubescents from beating the teenagers. This happens because its not really a sport, but a genetic sideshow.
3. So you're saying emaciated 14 year old near midgets have not historically dominated this "sport?" If you're 5 foot tall or god forbid over 5 feet tall in "womens" gymnastics, you're a novelty.
4. In general, yes. Designing a sport to celebrate tinyness is like evolution in reverse. Okay that's not technically true but oh well I'm a bigot.
5. You bet.
6. I think male gymnasts are good athletes, but yeah I think as a sport... both male and female gymnastics, ice skating, etc... are borderline ridiculous.

Let's see how the audience reacts though and maybe we can adjust our scores.

Yeah. They're all malnourished and whipped bondage slaves.

I used some hyperbole, so I guess I can't complain about you guys doing the same. You know that's not my point though. This year things have changed slightly for the better in terms of the female gymnasts, although other than the generally healthy appearance of the American gymnasts, come on you have to admit there are a lot of little anorexic munchkins competing. And that's the point. What's the purpose of having a subjective competition to see who's the best trained anorexic munchkin?

Is volleyball less a sport because it is favorable for tall people?


Powerful argument :p No it's more of a sport because it favors adults over kids, musculature over emaciation, measureable criteria over subjective decisions.

High jump is less a sport because some people can recover faster and more efficiently?


See above.

Now I have to say, some sports such as boxing, wrestling, powerlifting, etc... have weight divisions and age divisions to allow different levels of competition based on body size and age/strength. But the difference is these are established in essence to protect the small from the large, and protect kids from adults. In women's gymnastics you have the opposite. The kids are generally better than the adults so they made an age criteria to keep the younger kids out from beating the older kids.

Dear Winterworg:

Your hypothesis that younger gymnasts are superior to older ones (up to a point, part of the reason that female gymnasts' careers end so young has to do with the fact that the kinesthetic sense and it's associated raw neurological reaction time begins to decay in the early 20s - men can compensate longer because more strength elements are used) is flawed - and the proof is in the participants/results from this years Olympics. One third of the US women's team this year was 25/26 years old; the silver medalist in the all-around was 25 (Svetlana Khorkina, who is also 5' 7" fyi, despite 'official' stats that list her as 5' 5" :) ), and while she has a very thin (and oddly proportioned for a gymnast) body, there were very few gymnasts on the floor this Olympic year that looked like 'emaciated 14 year olds'. They looked like, surprise, incredibly well-conditioned athletes with *muscular* bodies sculpted by the demands of their sport, just like the swimmers, rowers, weightlifters, runners, and all of the other athletes participating at the Olympics. What under the sun gives you the idea that larger = intrinsically better or more athletic, btw? The ability to master one's body and the demands of a sport is impressive regardless of height, and it is simply the demands of that sport which favor one body type over another. My aikido instructor ages ago was a 5'2" man, a fearsome competitor, and an incredible athlete...

As far as the resurgence of adult women in gymnastics, this isn't new, either; we have the 5' 4" Svetlana Boguinskaya, who after a storied career in the Soviet system, retirement, and un-retirement, placed second in the European Championships in 1996 at age 25, and went on to lead Belarus's Olympic team in 1996, to thank for the current 'women's movement' in women's gymnastics (S. Khorkina of Russia won the *world* championships last year at age 24). While gymnastics requires an incredible amount of constant work to maintain their level of conditioning (meaning the athletes have to sacrifice a lot for it), and the forces of neurological aging and lignification of connective tissue, which happen early in humans, make it hard for gymnasts to stay at their peak much past age 20, women are able to, and do, compete at the highest levels in this sport well into their mid-late 20s. The bronze medalist in mens rings this year btw, the fabulous Yuri Chechi, is 35! Also, your 'data' from 1972 is completely fallacious - the gold medallist in the all-around that year, Ludmilla Turischeva, was 20 (she also placed third at the all-around in 1976, at age 24), and even Olga Korbut, the youngest woman on the Soviet team at the time, was seventeen when she competed that year. It is true that during the '80s - mid '90s there was a youth movement in womens gymnastics where very young women were favored (started by Comaneci's unseating of Turischeva in the all-around at age 14) but this tendency towards very young competitors has eroded steadily since the early 1990s. If you take a look at the current stats on the women competing on the US and other teams (excepting China's women ;) ), you'll see an average age of 19-20 (comparable with swimming), and a height in the 4' 11" - 5' range (a few are in the 5' 4" range, which is the average height for American women, who are taller than most).

Fourteen year olds are barred from competing at the Olympics not so much because they would beat the older women, but because their are serious risks associated with pushing them into senior level competition while so young. As you mentioned, extreme physical conditioning in pubescent women is not without its hazards (and female athletes in *many* sports experience delayed puberty and/or amenorrhea due to very low body fat, it's endemic in track and field, and age/height doesn't make this any less prevalent) and presents more of a risk to women in gymnastics than most other disciplines due to the extreme high impact nature of their sport.

While I agree with you that judging in gymnastics is to *some* extent subjective, and the judging in this years Olympic gymnastics competitions was much worse than it has been recently, it *is* based on a code of points which awards specific scores/start values for specific elements, which have *exacting* requirements for completion. As others have said, it's no more subjective than wrestling, judo, diving, boxing, or quite a few other sports.

The overall impression I have received from your very strenuous posts on the subject is that of a very subjective (and untestable) hypothesis that gymnastics isn't a sport, and that gymnasts aren't 'real' athletes, based primarily on your bias against small athletes...

I would have liked to have seen the Japanese men's gymnast, Daisuke Nakano, who landed a first-ever-in-international-competition dismount in the men's parallel bars last night, properly rewarded for his efforts, and errors do happen when scoring the fringes of this discipline, but there is no doubt in my mind that gymnastics *is* a sport: its competitors are highly conditioned, superb athletes who do unquestionably compete against each other, even if indirectly, and with the parameters being their apparatus, the code of points, and gravity, rather than a clock.

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Past Coercer - Autonomous Collective

The US national team won the Silver medal they average 59" and 99lbs....far from freak shows my friend. Are they smaller than average....emphatically yes!!!!!!!! Are they freakishly small...NO!!!!! My 58" tall mother in law certainly agrees...and no she wasn't a gymnast. They are small because it makes it easier for them to be successful....smaller athletes are naturally better at gymnastics. 6' women are naturally better basketball players...duh!!! And no, I'm not ignoring your evidence that gynastics training may effect the development of some of these women..and girls...but that can be said for other "sports" and it's becoming less of the norm in gymnastics.....and doesn't effect men at all.

There is an age minimum... please read up. Sorry 'bout the read up comment....

Great...glad to hear it...hasn't seemed to satisfy Winter the Gymnastics fan has it. Maybe it should be 18...21...24...86 :)

The judging has been right on par with all gymnastics competitions. The controversy is heightened because its the Olympics, but it happens in every competition. It's all subjective. All the elements are judges subjectively by the judges as to how well they think the person did in terms of height, control, power, artistic impression, etc... But hey.. at least the audience gets to participate in the scoring. It's not ALL subjective. Not black and white...some gray.

Okay lets say two teams play a basketball game Okay...let's play another game. The referees call more fouls on one team because the other team has a reputation for being more achomplished players (or are simply more famous). The game is close even though the better team isn't getting the calls they deserve. With one second left they miss a travel and an offesive foul and the rep team wins. The home crowd is standing in approval. Now the refs are like judges...subjectively determining or helping to determine the outcome....okay not completely the better team could have still overcome the subjectiveness of the refs...huh..a lot like gymnastics.

Distance runners in general look pretty unhealthy imo. However, Olympic distance runners have had a much higher average age, height, and weight than gymnasts and ... there aren't a group of judges following them along deciding who wins based on subjective criteria. Thanks for making my point.....where's your outrage against distance running.

According to the definition of aesthetics, yes it is.

How are gymnasts scored?

Optional Exercises (Women): With the exception of vault, where each vault is assigned a value, all women's routines are scored from 9.00 points. A gymnast can earn an additional 1.0 points by showing special combinations, connections, and/or extra D- or E-rated elements, for a maximum start value of 10.

Optional Exercises (Men): Men's routines are evaluated by an A-jury and a B-jury. (The A-jury is composed of one technical assistant and one judge; the B-jury is composed of six judges.) The A-jury determines the Start Value of the routine, while the B-jury determines execution errors related to technique and body position. The final score of an exercise is calculated by subtracting the deductions for the execution errors from the Start Value (the maximum of which is 10.0 points).

Are the gymnasts required to do any specific moves?

Some of the apparatus have required elements which will incur deductions if not completed in the optional routine. Here are some of the requirements:

<Table Missing see http://www.gymn-forum.com/faq/section-c.html>


What is start value? What is bonus?

Women:

All routines start from a 9.00 (except for vault).

Value Parts (A=0.2, B=0.4, C=0.6, D=0.8) 3.00 points
Combination (construction of the exercise) 0.60 points
Execution 4.00 points
Bonus Points 1.00 points
-----------
10.00 points

If a gymnast attempts to earn bonus points by performing an extra D- or E-rated element but falls or has a break worth 0.2 or more, then she does not receive the bonus points.

Men:

The gymnast can earn bonus points by performing extra D-, E-, and Super-E-rated elements and connections. When performed without a large error, each extra D element can be awarded 0.1; each extra E element can be awarded 0.2 each, and each extra Super-E can be awarded 0.3 points.

Difficulty (A=0.1, B=0.2, C=0.4, D=0.6) 2.40 points
Special Requirements 1.20 points
Presentation 5.00 points
Bonus Points 1.40 points
-------------
10.00 points

Men's vaults are grouped into Value Categories:

I=7.5 - 8.0 points
II=8.1 - 8.5 points
III=8.6 - 9.0 points
IV=9.1 - 9.5 points
V=9.6 - 10.0 points

What deductions do judges take?

The FIG has set out a Table for General Faults. Small faults receive up to 0.15 points' deduction; medium faults receive up to 0.3 points' deduction; large faults result in deductions worth more than 0.3 points and may lead to an invalid exercise. Following are some of the more common faults seen (and their deductions, for women's gymnastics):

Slight hop upon dismount 0.05 points
Poor foot form 0.20 points
One step upon dismount 0.10 points
Leg separation (each time) 0.15 points
Insufficient split position (when required) 0.15 points
Bent arms in support/bent knees 0.20 points
Insufficient height in leaps 0.20 points
Two steps upon dismount 0.20 points
Lack of diversified composition 0.20 points
Insufficient use of entire apparatus 0.20 points
Grasping apparatus to avoid falling 0.30 points
Three steps upon dismount 0.30 points
Fall on one or both hands, knees or hips 0.50 points

doesn't look like simply aestetics to me...any one else?

technical elements is judged subjectively The fact that required elements must performed is not subjective...was it performed?..that is a great deal of the score and is not in way shape or form subjective.... a yes or a no.

I guess I am. Well now we agree on two things..your biggoted against short people and the pole dancing thing :')

1. If you watch the competitions you will see evidence that it is, and you'll hear athletes such as Paul Hamm say it is. Must have missed it...but did he say it was COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE...no he did not...that is your spin.

a genetic sideshow. Basketball players are also...they should be booted. ...USA Women won a Silver...average age 19. USA Men won a Silver average....20 something.

3. So you're saying emaciated 14 year old near midgets have not historically dominated this "sport?" If you're 5 foot tall or god forbid over 5 feet tall in "womens" gymnastics, you're a novelty. No I'm saying you don't have to be an emaicited 14 year old to be a great gymnast.

6. I think male gymnasts are good athletes, but yeah I think as a sport... both male and female gymnastics, ice skating, etc... are borderline ridiculous. I can respect that...not trying to change your opinion...I just disagree...well...okay I don't like Ice Skating much either.

Let's see how the audience reacts though and maybe we can adjust our scores. First time I ever seen that....and I've watch and participated in a lot of Gymnastics. We have already agreed the judges this year are a particularly adept gaggle of idiots and morons. They have been less adept in previous competitions...but still had their moments of stupidity...they're human.

best trained anorexic munchkin ROFL!!

musculature over emaciation Some of the female gymnasts are pretty musculature for their diminutive size...Some of the men are friggen ripped. Some women...okay girls..are scarry skinny and look like death warmed over...and I'll be damned if any of the Chinese team are 16....maybe 12. Damn...there we go throwing out any distance or endurance event for men or women...those people look sick.

The kids are generally better than the adults so they made an age criteria to keep the younger kids out from beating the older kids. ...and to help the child exploitation thing....though some work needs to be done there. We've gone over the age thing...remember US Team.... 25,26,18,18,16,16.

Not trying to change your opinion of the sport Winter...I understand your opinion. Just presenting a counter viewpoint. I have enjoyed our debate...thanks.

Here's a good article by Kerri Scrug:

http://sports.yahoo.com/oly/gymnastics/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpaTA3aXJpBF9TAzk2NjcyOTgwBHNlYwNo cA--?slug=ks-gym0823&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Judging mostly sucks...though it detracts from a spectacular sport...it doesn't ruin it for me....yet. A few more debacles like this olympics though and It just might.

I have read this entire thread through at least once, some parts more than once. As a current gymnast, I think it's interesting to say the least. I would like to share a few words as well now.

Although Nydia uses a few words far beyond my comprehension, I do understand her gist. I want to thank her, Ailwon, and anyone else who is sticking up for gymnastics.

I have been doing gymnastics since I was 3 (of course, in my early years, I only did things like forward rolls and the like). Now I practice at least 20 hours a week, if not more. Even at this rate, I honestly don't think I could make it into the Olympics, but I won't stop training for it. Winning the all-around gold medal is the pinnacle of artistic gymnastics (no idea about rhythmic, I don't really follow it).

As for being anorexic and emaciated, I'll agree that there are some gymnasts who are...but let me ask this question: Aren't there people who are anorexic and emiaciated who participate in other sports? Or who don't do any sports at all? Sure, in the past, and even now to some extent, some people in the gymnastic world believe that smaller is better, but it has already been proven that that is not entirely correct. In addition to the statements already, I'd just like to add that the gold-medal winning United States team from the 1996 Olympics was the heaviest (combined weight) women's team in that Olympics. This helped more people to realize that weighing more was not necessarily so terrible.

In regards to being short in the sport of gymnastics, it is easier if you are shorter. As has been mentioned already, different sports favor different body-types. Shorter people have a lower center of gravity, so it is easier for them to control their bodies with the precision necessary in gymnastics...period. Can taller people still do gymnastics? Sure, but it'll be harder. Can shorter people still play basketball? Sure, but it'll be harder. Can people with smaller builds play football? Sure, but it'll be harder. I personally know tall (6') gymnasts, short (5'3") b-ball players, and smaller (175 lbs) football players. Are they the best in the world? No. Do they do well? Yes. There are plenty of gymnasts who are not freakishly short who do well in the sport, even if they do not make it onto their country's Olympic team. If you watch high school or college competitions locally, regionally, and/or nationally, you would see this.

Judging. The largest problem in gymnastics. Is it always fair? No. Is it 100% objective? Not possible. Is it 100% subjective? No. Is it hard to judge the top level gymnasts? Yea, you bet it is. Why? Because the ones at the top are all very very good. The rules are changed every four years (in part to help the sport progress), but by the time the Olympics roll around (at the end of every quad), many of the gymnasts have mastered the new code of points (aka rules). Obviously we all know that much of the judging at this year's Olympics sucked...period. I don't disagree in the least. But as in many things, only the bad is looked at. Nobody sees the judges who did a fine job scoring, only the ones who were way out of line.

Scoring does tend to start out low. In the team competitions, this occurs in large part due to the fact that the teams put up the gymnast who will probably score the lowest first, and the gymnast who will probably score the highest last (whether it be because of lower/higher start values or being less/more consistent or whatever). In the event finals, this happens because the judges usually want to be conservative with scores at first so that if another gymnast does a routine that is better than the ones before it, that gymnast will get a better score. But regardless of the order in which the gymnasts go, if the later gymnasts fall or have larger deductions, they won't win, even if they are at the end.

Judging is largely objective using the code of points. It is also subjective based on things such as amplitude, attitude, and execution. But even these subjective aspects have guidelines that judges must follow.

As for there being judging controversy in every competition, that is just plain wrong...it's not even close to being a correct statement. I have not only watched, but participated in my share of gymnastics competitions where there has been no judging controversy whatsoever, whether it be at a local meet or a national competition.

And I would like to say that judging is not based entirely on aesthetics. Gymnastics is not a beauty pageant. If it were, we would not see the level of difficulty that we do. Khorkina would not get second in the all-around (unless the judges had a liking for women who are so-skinny-they-almost-look-sickly...I suppose that's just my opinion, I just don't fancy her type).

One more thing I want to mention is that there are different age levels/groups in gymnastics...at least in the USA.

Well, I've said way more than I had originally intended, so again I just want to say thanks to those of you who actually understand something about the sport of gymnastics and who are standing up for it.

-VC's retired Duke

P.S. Nydia, I agree that the Nakano should have gotten a medal on p-bars. Poor judging is really a sad thing.

P.P.S. Winter, I do see some of your points, but you just need to stop making such blanketed statements based on such a small percentage of participants in the sport and being so biased. BTW, what exactly are the height and weight requirements to be a good athlete? I don't think I caught that in all your posts.

edit: Winterworg, I knew that name was familiar...from Ancient Spirits? I forget exactly, but how've you been? Still talk to Brubata? Wow, that just hit me.

As others have said, it's no more subjective than wrestling, judo, diving, boxing, or quite a few other sports

Its far far more subjective than wrestling, judo, and boxing. It's similar to diving which is a sport I have the same opinion about. I can't even comprehend someone trying to claim that there is any similarity in officiating between wrestling, judo, and boxing and gymnastics.


The overall impression I have received from your very strenuous posts on the subject is that of a very subjective (and untestable) hypothesis that gymnastics isn't a sport, and that gymnasts aren't 'real' athletes, based primarily on your bias against small athletes...

You missed the point completely then. As I have said over and over and somehow have failed to make clear, it's the method of judging that is my main point of contention. The fact that it favors tiny athletes is just a side point. The fact that it favors little tiny carnival sideshow children (women's gymnastics) is a strong sidepoint.

I have said over and over also, though everyone decides to make the point again anyway, that I think male gymnasts are supremely conditioned and good athletes. I just think their "sport" is a sham... okay not quite a sham but definitely a questionable sport in my mind.

Your hypothesis that younger gymnasts are superior to older ones (up to a point, part of the reason that female gymnasts' careers end so young has to do with the fact that the kinesthetic sense and it's associated raw neurological reaction time begins to decay in the early 20s - men can compensate longer because more strength elements are used) is flawed - and the proof is in the participants/results from this years Olympics. One third of the US women's team this year was 25/26 years old; the silver medalist in the all-around was 25 (Svetlana Khorkina, who is also 5' 7" fyi, despite 'official' stats that list her as 5' 5" :) ), and while she has a very thin (and oddly proportioned for a gymnast) body, there were very few gymnasts on the floor this Olympic year that looked like 'emaciated 14 year olds'. They looked like, surprise, incredibly well-conditioned athletes with *muscular* bodies sculpted by the demands of their sport, just like the swimmers, rowers, weightlifters, runners, and all of the other athletes participating at the Olympics. What under the sun gives you the idea that larger = intrinsically better or more athletic, btw? The ability to master one's body and the demands of a sport is impressive regardless of height, and it is simply the demands of that sport which favor one body type over another. My aikido instructor ages ago was a 5'2" man, a fearsome competitor, and an incredible athlete...First of all the average age has jumped up by 3 years since the last Olympics due to the new minimum age requirement. Khorkina is emaciated and if you saw her on the street you'd take her to the hospital and get an IV in her. People keep pointing out oddities such as Khorkina and say see we disproved it. Try to get a definite stat on her height or weight. It's impossible. She's 5'4" max from what I can gather, and listed at 100 pounds but I guarantee she's less than that. Again, what I said over and over and am saying now is that the sport has been shown to favor tiny children over adults and that's what I am saying is just one factor to me that says hey... maybe this is a weird kind of sport. You say the ability to master one's body is impressive regardless of height. Yes it is incredible, but what would be really incredible is if someone of normal height was doing the same thing. That would be a great athlete. Like Spud Webb or Mugsy Bogues playing in the NBA. I don't think Yao Ming or Shaq are great athletes... they're great basketball players. I don't think shorty gymrat is a great athlete... she's a great gymnast. I don't think Michael Jackson is a great athlete... he's a great dancer.


Also, your 'data' from 1972 is completely fallacious

I'm not sure what data I provided from '72 and I'm not going to look back but what I was saying is that the trend began in 1972, and if you can't look at the tiny tots during the 70's, 80's, and 90's and see there is something wrong, then I don't know what to say. We have 20 plus years there of way too little, way too young girls dominating what we're supposed to believe is a world class sport.


The US national team won the Silver medal they average 59" and 99lbs....far from freak shows my friend.
This is really getting frustrating. No matter what I say you keep changing the argument. I said that they instituted a minimum age this year and that it has improved over the previous 20plus years. I said that the American team is an exception to the rule. What more can I say to get something through your head.

http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/indepth/gymnastics/

Read it.

Anyway so now we have the huge American team, the biggest and oldest at the games with an average age of 19, average height of 4'11". Getting close to normal I admit.


In 1992, the average age of a U.S. gymnast was 16, with an average weight of 83 pounds


Great...glad to hear it...hasn't seemed to satisfy Winter the Gymnastics fan has it.

Depends on what you mean by satisfy. I think it should be 18 if anything, but its arbitrary. The fact remains though that most of the best gymnasts would be left out then, as they already are by the 16 minimum.


It's not ALL subjective. Not black and white...some gray.


Okay I'll concede it. Still there has been this year and always has been and always will be more controversy surrounding gymnastics scoring in the Olympics than all other sports combined. How many teams are contesting the results this year so far? Every night has been another controversy. Show me one other sport where a result has been changed because the crowd complained in an Olympic event.

The fact that required elements must performed is not subjective...was it performed?..that is a great deal of the score and is not in way shape or form subjective.... a yes or a no.

They don't ask just was it performed or not, they are subjectively judging how well it was performed to give them an overall impression of the routine. You can show all the rules you want but just watch the competitions. If it's so clear cut and rigid, why is there so much controversy and such a disparity between the scores the judges come up with? Because they're making subjective judgments which encompass it all.


Must have missed it...but did he say it was COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE...no he did not...that is your spin.


Okay yes that's my spin. Watch any gymnastics competition, the scores vary according to a person's reputation, order of performance, and any number of different intangibles. It's HIGHLY subjective, if not completely.

Quote:
a genetic sideshow.
Basketball players are also...they should be booted. ...USA Women won a Silver...average age 19. USA Men won a Silver average....20 something.


Again you mischaracterize the argument despite my repeating it over and over. My main contention is the judging, not the genetics. It's simply a factor. I agree that I wouldn't characterize a lot of the best basketball players as world class athletes. Not sure why you threw the age thing in there.

No I'm saying you don't have to be an emaicited 14 year old to be a great gymnast.
Depends what you mean by great. All but a very few are way way below average height, weight, and age compared to all other athletic competitions. I agree you don't have to be a 14 year old emaciated girl to be a great gymnast... but it helps.

Thank's for the article from Kerri Strug. I think it pretty well says exactly what I think about it, including disappointment in Hamm.

P.P.S. Winter, I do see some of your points, but you just need to stop making such blanketed statements based on such a small percentage of participants in the sport and being so biased. BTW, what exactly are the height and weight requirements to be a good athlete? I don't think I caught that in all your posts.

Well... based on the definition of aesthetics, it is 100 percent the principle behind gymnastics. Read the definition and you will see. I admit it's not 100 percent subjective, but it's the subjective part that separates the performers in the end. If you notice at the beginning of this debate I was being told basically that it was 100 percent objective, and now based on the weight of the evidence at least people are admitting that it is largely subjective, including Kerri Strug, and Paul Hamm, so if I made blanket statements forgive me but it's point counterpoint. On height, weight requirements, I think this whole section of the debate is kind of contorted. My frame of reference is this.... basketball was invented with the intent of producing the perfect athlete in the mind of Naismith. Tall, fast, strong, leaping ability, quickness. While I don't think that basketball players are the best athletes in the world, the ideal that he was looking for is the same as I believe. Gymnastics to me... is fun to watch, and it's amazing what gymnasts can do. However, to me that doesn't make them the ideal athlete. They are well trained, physically fit, graceful. Wheelchair racers are well trained, physically fit, strong, but in my mind I don't consider them great athletes, because I think you have to look at it in a relative sense. I know that I'm going to offend some people, but that's never stopped me before. If you invented a competition to see who could do the most pull-ups, you'd have an Olympic finals filled with competitors with amputated legs. IMO they wouldn't be world class athletes, it's artificial. That's part of what I think about gymnastics. Sure you can compare it to other sports which favor tall or stocky or heavy athletes, but when you factor in the judging fiascos, unhealthy (hopefully changing) nature of the female competitors, and other things we've discussed, I don't put it in the same category with other sports which I think are more representative of what I consider as Olympic material. I'm not EVEN gonna go back over that sentence to figure out if it makes sense, it was too hard to write the first time. I still think that diving, sync swimming, gymnastics, ballroom dancing... all have more in common than with other Olympic competitions.

edit: Winterworg, I knew that name was familiar...from Ancient Spirits? I forget exactly, but how've you been? Still talk to Brubata? Wow, that just hit me.

So long ago. I can't remember what guild we were in together but I know there was one. We were trying to get you Lady Vox for a period of time. Was it Immortal Mercy? Hmm... I think it was before that. I know we ran together quite a bit but the only clear thing I can remember was we were doing some dumb scavenger hunt with the guild and you and me and Scarabae? were teamed up and you guys just had me on auto follow while you were.... talking. Remember that? LOL. Brubata had quit last time I played which was... I'm sure over a year ago. Faladwen was still playing, and I'm not sure about Fuglee/Novicane. Anyway good to hear from you even though you think I'm an ignorant short people bigot.

Its far far more subjective than wrestling, judo, and boxing. I agree...it is more subjective. But is not 100% subjective and NOT 100% based soley on aesthetics by the simple fact that there are set moves that must performed in a set area. What's aesthetic about someone stepping out of bounds, missing a move, or the difficulty of a particular move they planned in their routine?...I'll answer that...NOTHING!!!!!!!!! It's not black and white like you contend Winter. Largely based on aesthetics...YES, 100%based on aesthetics....ludicrous.

The fact remains though that most of the best gymnasts would be left out then, as they already are by the 16 minimum. I'm afraid that statement is false. Women's all around winners:

ATHENS 2004: Gold - Carly Patterson, United States 16
SYDNEY 2000: Gold - Simona Amanar, Romania 19
ATLANTA 1996: Gold - Lilia Podkopayeva, Ukraine 18
BARCELONA 1992: Gold - Tatiana Gutsu, Unified team 16
SEOUL 1988: Gold - Yelena Shushunova, Soviet Union 19
LOS ANGELES 1984: Gold - Mary Lou Retton, United States 16
MOSCOW 1980: Gold - Yelena Davydova, Soviet Union 19
MONTREAL 1976: Gold - Nadia Comaneci, Romania 15y9mos
MUNICH 1972: Gold - Lyudmila Tourischeva, Soviet Union 20
MEXICO CITY 1968: Gold - Vera Caslavska, Czechoslovakia 22
TOKYO 1964: Gold - Vera Caslavska, Czechoslovakia 18

Average age: 18
Average before Age restrictions (1980 from what I can tell) 19


They don't ask just was it performed or not Yes they do, that is the first requirement of the score...did they complete the move.
Then they rate aesthetics. If they didn't complete the move...they don't get the bonus or lose a set amount of points.

[n] a (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/a) philosophical (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/philosophical) theory (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/theory) as (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/as) to (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/to) what (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/what) is (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/is) beautiful (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/beautiful); "he (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/he) despised (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/despised) the (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/the) esthetic (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/esthetic) of (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/of) minimalism (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/minimalism)"

The entire "sport" is based on aesthetics, including the scoring "system" in which each element is subjectively judged.

At least its all over. Including this thread...

Good of you to concede you're wrong.

Well, he did lose on every FACTUAL point, so he's been forced to keep putting words like "system" in quotes to continue the argument.

Huh? Yeah while we were carrying out this thread we had a score changed by the crowd, 4 more teams are now protesting results, the IOC acknowledges there was an error but they say that if the guy who won wants to give up his medal they will go ahead and let the other guy have it, and you say you win because it's normal for the biggest team in an event to average 4'11". I see, you're right, I lost, I concede.

And the fact that all of this is big news should suggest that it is NOT a normal part of gymnastics. We don't judge other sports by the few particular games where bad calls change the outcome of the game...

LOL I won't even bother to link all the controversies that riddle gymnastics on a constant basis. No major gymnastics events are without this type of controversy. We are hearing about it... just like we hear about it every four years... because the Olympics are really the only gymnastics events that get widespread coverage.


Open your eyes.

And what major gymnastics events have you watched besides the Olympics, to determine that "No major gymnastics events are without this type of controversy"?

"Winterworg, Wrong on Politics, Wrong on Gymnastics, Wrong for America"
"Vote NO on Winterworg this November"

Admittedly winter, this years gymnastics competition has been indelibly marred by incompetant officiating. As for there always being a drama in gymanstics, depends on your bias. As with any "judged" event, you can't please everyone, and someone is always going to complain about biaed or errant judging (or officiating). I haven't seen this kind of overt incompetance before....and hopefully never will again.

As far as controversy goes...gymnastics is not by at stretch alone..

Bias against the US in foul calls in basketball
The Brazillian tackled in the Marathon
The Greek runners drug controversy
The wrestling fracas
The many other doping controversies
Boxiing scoring protests
There was even controversy in Swimming....

From fencing to swimming to equestrian to gymnastics, hands have been wringing and protests flying over judges and scoring.
http://sports.yahoo.com/oly/news?slug=usatoday-judgingcontroversyswirl&prov=usatoday_wire&type=lgns