Don't panic, don't jump to your guns, I'm not flame baiting (for once). But this topic was brought up on another thread, and I felt it needed its own, special hearing.
So, picking up and carrying on this issue from a different thread...
Although saying Marz is sick for saluting the flag every day (although he's sick anyway, fullstop) is a bit over the top, because, well, we've no idea for the reasons he does.
Maybe he is just oddly patriotic. Let's face it - he's American.
But the issue of saluting flags and speaking the national anthem and all of that, in a country, everyday, is quite an interesting issue. Like religion, but let's not open that can of worms (see: a more fucked up thread next to this one), children are taught to do it; made to do it; get told to do it; get accustomed with doing it, throughout their childhood, and ergo their lives (if your parents/family are patriotic, you've no escape, no freedom from choosing otherwise - period. You cannot deny that).
What does that mean? Well, for one, it not only desuades any critical thinking or objection or differences they have with their country, but it also pressures and almost forces, sub-consciously (or, perhaps, in the light of this, consciously) a child/person to respect, love, and agree with their country in all and any issues. And most of all, sets in a sense of condeming a person to think any other way about their country.
Now I'm not *only* refering the the US here, but I only bring the US up because Marz is from there. And I know saluting the flag and all that is something that's done a lot in the US.
Whatchya think? Or not think, as it were :P
Is too much patriotism, such as saluting the flag, a bad thing? Is it intended as such? Is there no harm in it? Do you disagree that it would have no effect, sub-conscious or not, upon a child/person?

Pledging allegiance to the country that you live in should be a common practice. Many countries have a pledge of sorts.

Let's break down what the US pledge is saying, in my words.

I pledge that I will stand by my country.
We are all united in this together.
We will not be divided, we are indivisible.
Liberty and Justice for Every citizen who takes this pledge and becomes a citizen.

children are taught to do it; made to do it; get told to do it; get accustomed with doing it, throughout their childhood, and ergo their lives (if your parents/family are patriotic, you've no escape, no freedom from choosing otherwise - period. You cannot deny that).



I disagree with this quote, In my experience, most people who raise children in a very pro USA enviroment, tend to emphasize the freedoms we have, and stress critasism of them.

Some of the worst american naysayers are probly the most rabid patriots.

I think you're overstating the case a bit, at least when it comes to the US. Now, it is true that in school we say the pledge on a daily basis. Personally, I don't find anything wrong with this, though the very act of repetition -- I think -- dulls the effect rather than enhances it. When I was in school, I found that history was also watered down in some respects, especially in the early years when America could do no wrong. However, as one progresses one learns that our history is as virtuous as any other country's (which is to say, as bloody), and that we've had our bumps along the way toward trying to become a great society.

If dissenters weren't afforded the same protection, in the US, as non-dissenters to express their views, then your suggestion might have more merit. One cannot help what kind of lessons are taught family to family, but that's the case in any country whether you say a pledge or not. The US system encourages patriotism while allowing for expressions of patriotism that vary wildly with one another. Marz's idea of patriotism may differ from mine by leaps and bounds (or it may not), but we each may express it in our way, just as someone who's idea of patriotism is turning the US into a communist state can express his opinions (though they probably won't get much air time).

What does that mean? Well, for one, it not only desuades any critical thinking or objection or differences they have with their country, but it also pressures and almost forces, sub-consciously (or, perhaps, in the light of this, consciously) a child/person to respect, love, and agree with their country in all and any issues.

Quite the opposite in my experience actually. Because of the Pledge of Allegiance and Flag Saluting, I've found that it's encouraged people to find answers for themselves. If everyone agreed and loved their country the same way on ALL issues, then we wouldnt have some many political parties. We would have one.

Are there times when we're blind and take things at face value, sure, absolutely, but show me a human that doesnt.

I'm going to agree with Darus, some of the fiercest Patriots are extremely different from me in terms of "how we should do it". In the end though, they still love their country and believe they are standing up for what is right.

Growing up, we always said that Pledge of Allegiance in the morning in homeroom. I don't remember having a seperate "salute the flag" time though, thats a new one. But hey, I'd be all for it. One should love and cherish the country they live in.

a child/person to respect, love, and agree with their country in all and any issues

I grew up saying the pledge every day in school (at least in elementary school). I do love and respect my country and what it stands for, but do not "agree" with everything it does. The fact that my country respects individual freedoms is the very thing that empowers citizens to disagree with policies of administrations and thus vote for someone else next time.

I do believe added "under god" statement in the pledge should be removed. Saying that a child can "choose" not to say "under God" opens them up to ridicule from their peers IMO.

If you did that in Sweden you'd be marked as a racist, really. You don't even sing the Swedish national anthem in schools anymore because it's considered racism. If you flag when it's not someones birthday or any other special occassion theres a big chance you'll be called a racist.

In that respect, I really do see the fact that Americans actually "love their flag" as something good. Cus the situation in Sweden around it is just sick.

I think you are overexagurating quite a lot there.

Raising the flags on someones bday isnt considered racist in any way. Same with singing the national anthem.. But if you where to say.. parade down the streets of a major city on the national day people would asume you are a part of the xenophobic political movement.

I sing the national anthem maybe 3 times a year.. Its in no way considered racist even though its not technically our national anthem. We dont really have one and "Du gamla, Du fria" just filled the void.

I actually wrote a long post on what I thought was wrong with the pledge.
But i don't think 9-11 is the appropriate date to post it.

Maybe i'll post it later on not sure

Maybe we live in different parts of the country then Hubbe, I haven't sung the national anthem in school since I was 8. It's not part of graduation here and we didn't sing it on "the national day" during the years after second grade.

I've had friends who has gotten beat up for having one of those corny Sweden t-shirts (Swedish flag and it says land of the vikings or something under it).

//Izola

I like to show respect for my flag and my country because it stands for something I'm proud of.

I'd like to point something else out, Halo.

Realistically, people aren't forced to say the pledge in schools. Any kid can just not say it. But most of the news articles you read about this issue aren't about kids, and more importantly parents, who want to do this. These people often WANT to draw attention to themselves.

I think a perfect example is the NBA player for the Denver Nuggets who didn't like the singing of the national anthem. He couldn't just look at the floor or close his eyes or whatever or not sing or whatever. He decided to draw attention to himself by turning his back, then played the victim during the ensuing controversy.

I guess however you look at it, people are wacked sometimes.

Realistically, people aren't forced to say the pledge in schools. Any kid can just not say it.While that is indeed true, most teachers are unaware of this, and will attempt to 'force' the child into saying the pledge. From my experiences, that's how it is anyways. (I'm currently a senior in high school, if that helps add any perspective.)

And for the most part, in my school anyways, it's not so much 'saying' the pledge as it is 'standing' for the pledge. Next to none of the kids actually say the pledge, but do stand for it. Teachers don't seem to care about that. It's the ones who refuse to stand / hold their hand on their chest, that the teachers get pissed about, in spite of the fact that (in Maryland anyways), children are allowed to sit during the pledge assuming they're not disrupting the class (meaning talking of course). However, many teachers will argue that by sitting, they are in essence disrupting the class... regardless of the fact that, the teacher yelling at them is what's actually disrupting the class or not.

Okay, I'll admit. I was bored, so I just kept rambling. :\

It's been stated before. I work for the government. This kind of practice is common. No body HAS to do it, and some don't.

And how is anyone "sick" for showing their respect and love for their country?

Your little view of some type of morning ritual where we all salute hitler is blurred by your blind penis envy issues with the US.

If anyone here is "sick" then its You, Ytrok, and Taino. You act like a gaggle of bitches whenever you post the same old anti-American crap, day in, day out.

So, I made a new sig, just for you. And partly Ytrok, he seemed upset that my sig was a few pixels too big, and I pictured him curled up in the fetal position in the corner crying about it, so I changed it. Just so he doesn't have to cry anymore. (insert "awwwwwwww"s here)

Was that partly inspired by the Simpsons?

For those that haven't seen:
Bart and Homer are walking down a beach in Brazil. The lifeguard yells, "Hey you, Americans!" Homer says, "How'd you know?", as he turns around, wearing this shirt:
http://www.crackerjap.com/pics/cracker/Try%20and%20stop%20us.jpg

Meh.

Heh. I had assumed you were leaving your sig a few pixels too large just to bother Ytrok.

Yea it was Nark. It was the shirt with Uncle Sam taking a bite out of the earth with the "try and stop us text."

Thanks for doing what I asked you to do Marz .. really appreciate it.

'Now, it is true that in school we say the pledge on a daily basis'

- You seriously think this will unaffect someone? Like.. totally? I find that very hard to believe indeed.

'One should love and cherish the country they live in.'

- This I absolutely, ABSOLUTELY, disagree with. You should in no way 'have' to love the country you live in. Not by a long shot. No need to 'love and cherish' a country.
I actually think dellusions of country devotion is a main contributing factor - up there with religion - is why we have so many problems in the world.

'Teachers don't seem to care about that. It's the ones who refuse to stand / hold their hand on their chest, that the teachers get pissed about,'

- I could actually see this (in all my American nay-saying) as something that happens in schools. It isn't so much, as you said, to do with the pledging and the flag. More to do with ridiculing someone who's doing something other than the norm - something different than others. Perhaps kids aren't forced to do it officially, or by law, but IMO that in no way, at all, stops them from being forced to do it (peer pressure, isolation, confidence, teacher discipline, etc).

Marz, this is a semi-interesting disucssion.
Go back to your 'OMFG THIS IS SICK!111' threads where you post a random link of things you spend your life finding.
And with things like 'Try and stop us' - completely contradicts your view on being angry at terrorism. Fucking dolt.

Calm down there lil bitch. Don't have a heart attack over the obvious sarcasm in my sig.

I'd rather spend my time looking at news from around the world, than spend my time turning every single thread here into an anti-America post, like you and the rest of the LOTJ cronies.

I once got detention for refusing to say the pledge... this was like 2 years ago.

Do I love my country? Sure, it's a fine and dandy place. Not perfect, but I'm fed, clothed, at a decent college doing the whole education thing. I don't fully agree with everything that "we" do, but I don't agree fully with everything my friends/family does either, and that's no reason to not love them

My reason for not saying the pledge was because I didn't really feel like it, I agree with the above posters. Repetition doesn't breed a ferocity of patriotism, it becomes just a blind act with almost nothing attached to it, so I saw no point to keep on doing something that had come to mean nothing to me.

My home room teacher disagreed and gave me detention, and made me stand and say the pledge every day for the rest of the year and threatened to send me to the dreaded office if I didn't. I was skating on thin ice for other reasons so I didn't persue the matter, 1 minute out of my day to get that woman to shut her mouth and keep myself out of detention.... the choice was obvious, even if it wasn't my favorite part of the day.

At any rate, saluting the flag, while a dandy and respectful act.. when done day in and day out without one actually *thinking* about what it means, and moreso *wanting* to do it, to show that respect, to take that break from your life and pledge all of that.... It becomes worthless as a mandatory and repetitive act, so I hardly think saying the pledge every day is any reason for patriotism, but that's just how it was for me, I'm certain that there are individuals who actually do stop to think when they do that and it just reinforces their patriotism. But by far and large, that isn't the case.

- This I absolutely, ABSOLUTELY, disagree with. You should in no way 'have' to love the country you live in. Not by a long shot. No need to 'love and cherish' a country.


I'm going to use for my stance the definition that country == culture == society here.
If you do not love and cherish the country you live in- why live there?

Being able to love and cherish your country does not mean that you can't disagree with its policies or that you have to blindly follow your leaders-

Loving your country might mean doing your best to try and change what you view as elements that are causing it to be less than it could be.

I'm going to use for my stance the definition that country == culture == society here.
If you do not love and cherish the country you live in- why live there?

One does not choose the country one is born in and not everyone has the opportunity and/or resources to leave the country they live in.

I knew someone was going to say that.

You have two feet and can start walking whenever you wish. People walk into the US all the time :p

That having been said, a lot of people are willing to settle for "good enough" as well.

You have two feet and can start walking whenever you wish. People walk into the US all the time

You are aware there is an ocean between Europe and the USA?

And no .. not everyone can move abroad, people don't always get a work permit or even get allowed into the country, no one (as far as I know) likes illegal immigrants to begin with (couple posts here show that).

So no .. not everyone has the possibility to move out of their country, some people can't afford it or some can't even walk (ever think of that).

So it is not as easy as you think .. and no .. you can not achieve everything you set your mind too ... some things are just impossible.

So it is not as easy as you think .. and no .. you can not achieve everything you set your mind too ... some things are just impossible.

Bullshit. Some things may not be possible at that exact moment, but given time, direction and motivation, anything is possible.

You have two feet and can start walking whenever you wish. People walk into the US all the time

You are aware there is an ocean between Europe and the USA?

Most of the Mexican Nationals that migrate to the United States do so by crossing the Rio Grande. You could always strap on your sombrero and swim from Holland. :)

You are aware there is an ocean between Europe and the USA?

I never said you had to come to the US. You could walk to Belgium and drink beer if you wished. I simply stated that people walk into the US *all the time*.

And no .. not everyone can move abroad, people don't always get a work permit or even get allowed into the country, no one (as far as I know) likes illegal immigrants to begin with (couple posts here show that).

Who said you need a work permit or permission to enter a country? Legality does not equal ability. I work with a man who fled his country with the clothes he had, a small ammount of currency and is doing quite well in the US.

So no .. not everyone has the possibility to move out of their country, some people can't afford it or some can't even walk (ever think of that).

Oh, since we want to go into the extreme margians of the example:
Suicide is always an option for those people. That would certainly get them out of the country. Ever think of that? /shrug

So it is not as easy as you think .. and no .. you can not achieve everything you set your mind too ... some things are just impossible.

Some things *are* impossible. Fleeing a country in which you have no deisre to live is not one of them.

Either you are willing to live there *for whatever reason*- up to an including it might be hard to leave, or you have family to support- whatever. Yes, you don't have to love that country, but you do choose to live there.

LOL if people found a way to escape the Iron Curtain Im sure you can get out of Europe or where ever you happen to live.

Im kinda interested in the connection between christianity being introduced to sweden and the hatred that is apparently expressed for the "Viking" - "might makes right" mentality.

Case in point the church burnings in Norway (I'm aware that Sweden and Norway arent the same country but...) and their root in the belief that Christianity subverted "True" viking beliefs. Is christianity that important to Swedish/Nordik culture or are those connections a falacy?

You are aware there is an ocean between Europe and the USA?You are aware there isn't an ocean between the United States and Canada or Mexico?

While it might be true that other countries don't have the luxury of emigration, most US citizens can, with little hassle, take up residence in, and even change nationalities to other countries.

"Love it or leave it."

You are absolutely welcome to do either. Hell, you're welcome to hate it and stay too, and even shout from the rooftops of the courthouses that you hate it. That's the joy of being an Americian.

Anyway, if you emigrate from here, we promise you won't end up like this poor schm (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a990820.html)

*edited to fix bad quoting.

Go go good guys! :b

I'd just like to assure the Euro's of this board, that though I usually toat the pro-America ra-ra attitude on boards like this, as soon as I log off and drive to work, I'm bitching about the traffic, the dirty air, how shitty the president is, etc....etc...as much if not more so then you ever could.

I don't know how big you are into sports, but let's just down the scale a bit. Hopefully this will give you a better 'picture' of how 'patriotism' works in America.

I'm a Green Bay Packers American Football fan. So is my entire family. We were born in Wisconsin (the State in which Green Bay dwells) so it's only natural that we're GB fans. It's what we grew up with.

Now, if I'm watching the Packer game with my family, and the quarter back does something stupid (Which Brett Favre managed to do more then once...*sigh*), every single one of us sitting there watching will go, "You stupid son of a bitch."

Now, pay attention, it's about to get complicated.

Let's say my friend comes over who's a Minnesota Vikings fan. If Favre makes a mistake, I say, "Damnit." If my friend says anything about the play, or even just simply cheers, I say, "Shut the fuck up you goddamn raw snatchbucket." In fact, if he smiles I tend to throw something at him.

Now, I still like the guy. Hell, I'd let him sleep with my sister if I had one so I'll let him sleep with Fazin or Gokuu's instead. But whenever it comes to football, it can get viscious.

See what I'm getting at? I know my country does stupid shit, just as you know yours does too. But if I went off on you and Sweden/England/Switzerland/Norway/etc... I think you'd agree your first kneejerk reaction is to say, 'Shut the fuck up asshat." Or something to that effect at least.

Now, America comes under constant "opinion" attacks from people who don't live here. It gets to the point where people on your ICQ/AIM listings, the chat rooms you hang out in, the message boards, the people you kick the shit out of in Yahoo! pool, etc....

You kinda just say "fuck it" and take things to extremes. You get sick and tired of trying to explain and/or justify anything you do. You feel it's impossible for anyone who doesn't live here to see the good through the bad. You see people who read a liberal newspaper and a few websites and suddenly think they know all the twists and turns of high level political deals.

Afterall, why should I bother when you're just going to take what I say and go dig for more liberal interpretations that in the end only attempt to make me seem like a bigger asshole? Why say, "yeah Bush sucks, but goddamn it's a nice day out" when you'll just return with, "It would be better if you used wind power."

The first few times on a brand new subject, sure it's kina fun to debate a little, through the banter around. But after so many years of being knocked on for the same old shit, it's just not worth effort.

I don't know why I bothered to type that all out, because in two months, I'll be seeing the same shit from the same people.

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedon of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves under the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protestor to burn the flag.

Charles M. Province

Why do I support teaching our children patriotism? Because many men greater than me have worn the uniform I wear today, and died to afford us the freedoms everyone enjoys, I salute the flag because of who and what it represents, and i encourage others to do the same. But no one is forced, because that would defeat the purpose of it all.

I never really got along with Elemak when we were guilded, but he hit the fucking nail square on the fucking head.

And remember also, that flag we all salute or praise or sing songs to, because of our patriotism for that flag, the communist countries of the world have dwinled dramatically, most of Europe doesn't speak German, or Russian, or Italian, or Japanese. The French are still French.

As pointed out by many, NO ONE is FORCED to EVER say the Pledge of Allegiance, to sing the national anthem, or to salute the flag. NEVER! Now when I did an exchange program to Mexico, the MExican school we stayed at played the USA national anthem in the mornings FIRST, and followed it with their own afterwards. And while I didn't sing the Mexican national anthem, I did notice that *EVERY single American there stood and showed reverence for the Mexican flag, as did *EVERY single Mexican for ours.

Its not about forcing people, or requiring things. It is about respect. Respect for a flag, which after all else is simply some dyed material. But that flag represents EVERYTHING that is our country, just as the flag of any other country does the same. And while it pisses me off to no end to see people burn an american flag, I would never take up arms against a person for burning my flag, debate and scream and hollar I would, but harm I would not do, because our flag represents the RIGHT to have that very flag burned.

I understand you Europian dickwads that troll these boards like cock hungry, flea bitten prostitutes after a quick buck might not understand some of these concepts due to the fact that you live in countries that don't share all these great ideas & practices that Americans do, but don't make excuses or attacks on the US for your lack of freedom and your ignorance of things here. How long have any of you *lived in the US?

And finally, lets look at the olympics. The olympics are not US run. The olympics are a WORLD gathering of great atheletes, run by an extremely fair group of people. At the presentation of the medals for each and every game, what song is played for the gold medal? And do you not feel pride deep down when your country wins the gold, your national anthem blares, and your flag is proudly displayed? If not I'd suggest you take Palmiax's advice and get the fuck outta wherever you live to someplace better(maybe a little island in the middle of the antartic?). Everyone has the choice as to where they live(speaking of adults here or those capable of taking care of themselves). While you may not have the money to pack all your shit on a ship and go across the sea, or even enough anything to move across the border to a neighboring country, you do have the ability to kill yourself, and kill others. So if you can't find a damned place on earth that you can get to that you like, do everyone a big favor and off yourself.

Thankyou, please drive through.

Halo Your 100% wrong when you said this
children are taught to do it; made to do it; get told to do it

We are taught.. not forced... many people i know choose not to stand up for the pledge... or take their hats off. No one forces them.. you were only forced in elementary school grades 1-5 (6)

/agree elemak

Now that I have that out of the way, a few things...

If you did that in Sweden you'd be marked as a racist, really. You don't even sing the Swedish national anthem in schools anymore because it's considered racism. If you flag when it's not someones birthday or any other special occassion theres a big chance you'll be called a racist.

Being that I know little about sweden, this makes little sense to me(in the realm of "wtf?"). O_o. Would anyone be able to explain or give me a link or something?

And 2nd thing, just using the quote as an example.

If my friend says anything about the play, or even just simply cheers, I say, "Shut the fuck up you goddamn raw snatchbucket." In fact, if he smiles I tend to throw something at him.

Sports fans that do stuff like that in public are why I quite enjoyed tampa bay's performance on monday for the philly "fans". Booing their own team only a few minutes into the first game at the new stadium, very classy.

Ahem, that's enough off-topicness for now.

In Sweden a lot of people have associations of open patriotism with xenophobic and racist political parties, this is due to the strong movement of anti-racism in sweden which has led to said political movements being denied basic freedom of speech rights like political advertisments in public media such as newspapers, when rival political parties are free to do so..

Myself, im strongly opposed racist parties and xenophobic movements, however I am also strongly for freedom of speech so I think this sucks. Here in Sweden there has been alot of controversy about flashback.se who allowed NSU and other racist and neo-nazi parties webspace, a politician devoted his time to close them down together with a cartel of ISP's.. things like that sucks..

Because of strong anti-racism in sweden, and because everyone are aware of other peoples associations instantly made when they see someone waving a flag in a public space, people hesitate to celebrate things like the swedish national day etc. This is mainly in larger cities, from own experience I know that a lot of 2nd generation immigrants try and beat up "swedish looking" kids just for being swedish as well (in year 9 i was one of 4 swedes in a class of 28) . Its very hard to try and explain this and I dont know where it comes from but we tend to not flag and show colours as much as our neighbours the norweigians.

But I havent really lived in Sweden the past 3 years so perhaps someone knows a better way to explain this.. And I fear Ive just been rambeling but I hope it comes across as somewhat informative as to whats going on over here :p

Me - 'children are taught to do it; made to do it; get told to do it'

You - 'We are taught.. not forced... '

You - 'forced in elementary school grades 1-5 (6)'

Re-read, re-think, re-post.

Listen - quite predictably - you are missing the point of this thread. The unconscious, or quite conscious, effects patriotism, and more specifically flag saluting, has on children and thereafter, people.
Force aside, do children at such a young and vunerable age (see: norm, peer pressure, etc) have a choice in their patriotism? Independent thoughts outside the collective norm at such an age like 10 years old, when all your friends, teachers, family, also support and salute the flag, is - let's get realistic - not going to be all about freewill.
Re-think your opinion of force in this context. It's not always direct.
I would certainly believe if I lived in America and saluted the flag all my child hood, and came to accept it as the norm, then it would be something I took to and believed in for a long while after. Same, for example, as religion.
Thankfully (and I really do mean in every essence of the word), I was never applied to such things.

Halo seriously..

Your making a mountain out of a mole hill..

Ever spent any time with a kid in grade school? You have to MAKE them do everything besides run around like a maniac...
They MAKE them drink milk and take naps too. I suppose they are evil too!

Now if you addressed the Boy Scouts.. you may have a point or two.. but this is just silly.

What would be the result not making them salute the flag?
What is the idea behind making those kiddies salute the flag?

Serious questions btw ...

What does it hurt with having them salute the flag?
What good would it do not teaching them it?

Serious question btw.


I remember looking at the flag when I was in grade school, putting my hand over my heart..and saying the pledge of allegiance. Am I more patriotic than my neighbor who is from India and gained his citizenship just a few years ago? Not in the least bit..in fact I see an american flag big as ever in his bag yard and he loves the 4th of july.


You guys are making this bigger than it needs to be. Stick to your own fucking customs and problems and don't worry about ours.



Ibudin

Stick to your own fucking customs and problems and don't worry about ours.
Do you curse to come off stronger?

Was not giving your customs any critique .. was asking for the reasons why.
Oh well...

Everything you say concerning the U.S. is a critique/criticism; that's been clear for quite a long time. Your silly little "serious question, btw" phrases don't change that.

Everything you say concerning the U.S. is a critique/criticism; that's been clear for quite a long time.
Either you can't see the difference between a question and/or critique or you maybe can't read or you have a brick in your brain preventing you from actually understanding what is written.
I leave it up to you to decide what it is and when you find it you can crawl back into my arse where you have been living for so long.

IMO the ritual is meant to instill loyalty to the country and community from a young age. It is generally considered a good idea to get people engaged in their own governance as much as possible. A lot of people snicker at patriotism or its symbols. It can be carried to an extreme if the focus is a symbol and not the ideology behind it. But the bottom line is it is a tool for advancing an idea and embedding it into a culture.

There is an idea or belief if you will that underlies our country. That idea is that a person should be allowed to advance himself to the best of his natural abilities free from artificial constraints imposed by some narrow social class. It arose from the resentment of the lower classes towards the upper ruling classes that ruled based on birth, not merit. The idea was to eradicate the hereditary class structure and make advancement for all a possibility. Sounds kind of like Marxism, doesn't it? In any case, it is still an ongoing process but we feel the idea is valid and worthwhile.

We tend to equate our nation with that idea. Thus, by encouraging loyalty to the nation we believe ourselves to be encouraging loyalty to the idea.

... or maybe you've just been throwing insults at us for so long that's gonna take more than a little phrase here and there to change everyone's view of you.

Thanks for answering....

So do you feel it is right to do this, do you feel that putting kids in this position helps your Nation forward ... because the same is done in all those countries that are your "enemies".
The same is done to the kids who are being brought up to become the next Osama...

There are a lot of Parallels that can be made between what happens in the US and what happens in for instance Iraq. Where people get tought to stand behind their leader, to support their country no matter what etc etc ...

Althou I know that you don't teach your kids to blow themselfes up and there are a lot of differences, there are also many parallels.

How do you feel you are different from their way and your way of putting patriotism into your blood?



Disclaimer Just for mirdorr:
Read carefully, no critique made to the US just asking for answers and point of views, not saying you are baaad baaad boogy men people ok?

It's really pretty simple. The difference is the idea behind the teaching.

In the case of Bin Laden, the idea is that everyone should subscribe to his interpretation of Islam and that it is OK, or even a duty, to kill everyone who does not.

In the case of the US, the idea is as I described earlier.

It is not the methodology that is the issue, it is the message.

But if you hear the message day in day out .. how can you decide what message is true and what is false?
That is the problem behind the method...

, not saying you are baaad baaad boogy men people ok?

Yet you still manage to throw in a small putdown.

Some things, like the pledge of allegiance, are simply done because it's a tradition. We've done it for a long time. There is not necessarily a concrete tradition for doing it.

One of the, I don't know, underlying trends in this country is to get rid of traditions like this simply for the sake of getting rid of it. Other people, like me, are comfortable with and value tradition.

As soon as you actually graduate from HS in the US, You can go home and never have to look at another flag nor say any sort of allegiance. Hell I cant even remember having to any sort of thing in highschool from the 9th grade on but I simply might have forgotten. You are thinking we are all zombies and that this daily ritual made us extremests in the daily habits of looking and recognizing what this white, blue, and red flag means to the US citizens. Compairing that to Osama and what they do is rediculous. You loose all credibilty you have with me if you seriously think that is the same thing. Give it up.


Ibudin

Was not giving your customs any critique .. was asking for the reasons why.

Ok. First some background so you understand my perspective.

I'm only 3rd or 4th generation American. My ancestors emigrated here from southern Ireland. America provided opportunities to my family that weren't available there.

Where my family's sense of duty comes from I don't know exactly, but there is a strong tradition of public and military service. On my father's side of the family there is over 100 yrs of combined military service just since WW2. This doesn't include my grandfather's years as a merchant marine or a Philadephia city police officer.

I was raised with the idea that America transcends political ideologies, ethnic backgrounds, religious beliefs and racial groups. America is greater than the sum of its parts.

When I pledge allegiance to the US Flag, i'm swearing loyalty to the ideals our country was founded upon, not whichever person happens to be president at the time. When I salute the flag or stand and place my hand over my heart for the national anthem, its not because I think the government will label me "anti-american" if I don't. I don't feel pressured by my peers to do these things, I do them because I believe in what America represents.

And perhaps I feel it more immediately than other people do because it wasn't so long ago that our family didn't have the choices we do now.

My daughter is a different person and may well end up feeling differently but she and I talk about what I believe and why I believe it.

Because along with that methodology, we also encourage freedom of expression and speech. Especially in the modern world it is impossible to isolate oneself from other ideas. If you have an idea you wish to promote, you must compete with other ideas along the way.

Although the pledge of allegiance is not a new concept in the US, we have had our share of citizens with non-democratic ideals. The nazi party, communist party or KKK is not illegal in the US for example. They are just heavily ridiculed by most of the population because their ideas do not stand up to scrutiny and are generally the antithesis of what our nation was founded on.

'What does it hurt with having them salute the flag?
What good would it do not teaching them it?'

- Uhm... have you read ANY post in this thread so far? The problems with making them do this are all that has been discussed so far, the main point being - to quash any otherwise critical ideas against a country.

'You guys are making this bigger than it needs to be. Stick to your own fucking customs and problems and don't worry about ours. '

- And you say the Euro's around here are full of hate?
Hello, welcome to a civilized conversation.
Mirdorr, Ibudin, take a lesson from Gulor in how to handle a thread without flaming.
Methinks you reduce to crying when you're confronted with an actual issue that your perspective might be wrong on.
Scroll up and read inbetween whatever illusions you are reading now. I said this is not only pointed at America, the example is used the most simply because this thread was based on Marz's patriotic comments in another thread.

Try to point out where I've been wrong.

And this:

The problems with making them do this are all that has been discussed so far, the main point being - to quash any otherwise critical ideas against a country.

is just silly, unless you can provide some evidence otherwise.

I find it far from silly.
You'd not agree that being exposed to something repetitively and endlessly in a period where your mind and identity are extremely vunerable (childhood), is not a serious matter?

Or are you discarding it as silly for the very reason that it's not?
Or are you just being the twat you are? So many options.

Or are you just being the twat you are? So many options.

You should take a few lessons as well on flamming. I'll go back to putting up my flag and making sure all the little ankle biters with in my reach salute it or be beaten!


Ibudin

You'd not agree that being exposed to something repetitively and endlessly in a period where your mind and identity are extremely vunerable (childhood), is not a serious matter?

Nope. By your reasoning, everyone would be extreme patriots. They're not. Why would ANYONE ever have protested the Vietman war? Most of those young adults, having been forced to say the pledge allegiance or be shot, should have been waving flags and volunteering to go over and fight.

Parents are a much much bigger influence. If you've dealt much with kids, you often find that they think the *opposite* of what you try to influence them to think.

'What does it hurt with having them salute the flag?
What good would it do not teaching them it?'

- Uhm... have you read ANY post in this thread so far? The problems with making them do this are all that has been discussed so far, the main point being - to quash any otherwise critical ideas against a country.

Uhm.. who hasnt been reading the posts? havent we already determined that the ONLY people "forced" to say the pledge of alliegence are kids in grades 1 to 5?
So is your stance that the ebil american pledge quashes that strong potential politcal movement of 10 year olds?

Phear teh Barney Party!!!oneonewon

You think the US is at a loss for political activism HAHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHA HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAH
ok.....
Or is just because that when the Twin towers fell, people werent moaning about how much we deserved it?
In times of Crisis or hardship.. Americans come together.. its not because we have been Brainwashed by the pledge..

Btw this litany of Evil is as follows..
"I pledge alliegance to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"
oooooOOooOooOooo Spooky stuff!!!

Halo,
Show me a country who promotes ideas designed to reduce loyalty to itself and I will show you a country that is not long for this earth.

All early education is in effect promoting one idea over another. For example, do you ever expect to see children in any western society being taught in elementary school that females have no place learning anything beyond housework? Yet in some parts of the world that is considered a valid viewpoint (see Taliban.)

Part of being a citizen of any country is working to improve the conditions in your country for the next generation. Some self criticism is always expected and beneficial. But the over-riding goal is always to improve the existing country, not scrap it to start over with some other new version.

Some posters appear to have the conviction that patriotism to any nation is passe and childish, or perhaps even evil in some way. Patriotism is not inherently evil, as long as that patriotism does not devote itself to an idea that is inherently evil. That is not to say that evil things have not been done in the name of patriotism. They have. But wonderful things have been done as well. Try to keep a perspective on what the idea is behind all the flag waving and don't dismiss it as a meaningless pavlovian response.

Where people get tought to stand behind their leader, to support their country no matter what etc etc

Your premise is off Ytrok...we are not taught this at all. We are to taught to respect our country and the ideals on which it was founded...not to follow one idiot politician blindly into oblivion.

Phear teh Barney Party!!!oneonewon

My stomach hurts from laughing so hard.


Ibudin

Your premise is off Ytrok...we are not taught this at all. We are to taught to respect our country and the ideals on which it was founded...not to follow one idiot politician blindly into oblivion.

point taken Ailwon.

Still ... I feel that by forcing kids from class 1-5 is wrong and yes maybe when you are 22 you aren't forced but you still have the you have to be loyal feeling.
And there is a difference between being loyal and being wrong.
Please don't mix those up (I am not saying you are, just hoping you won't when that moment comes)

I guess our point is that it is not wrong to encourage loyalty. Difference of viewpoint I guess.

maybe when you are 22 you aren't forced but you still have the you have to be loyal feeling

How would you know? Were you forced to say the pledge every day for five years and now you have blinding loyalty to America? No? then stfu, thanks.

You dumbshits. Nobody forces you to stand up and say the pledge of allegience. NOBODY! You are taught to, but you are never forced to.

Not a one of you knows anything about the United States, but you're experts when it comes to nit-picking our customs and values.

If my 3 year old, when she goes to school, doesn't want to say the pledge, or I don't want her to say the pledge, then, she won't. End of story.

NO AMERICAN IS FORCED TO SAY THE PLEDGE.

That said, anyone go to a baseball game recently? I love watching 50,000 of my neighbors stand up and take off their hats and sing along to the National Anthem, and last night I enjoyed listening to them do the same thing to America The Beautiful during the 7th inning...

Nobody forced us. We love our country.

...and I keep asking, oh America-experts, when was the last time you visited the United States?

'...and I keep asking, oh America-experts, when was the last time you visited the United States? '

- 3.5years ago.
Re-read my post about indirect force, you pleb.
And actually, there are Americans here that have already established the fact that at certain ages, you are forced.

Really, where did you go?

Not a one of you knows anything about the United States, but you're experts when it comes to nit-picking our customs and values.

By god Taino has seen 1000 American movies. He KNOWS about American culture. Thats why he backs Senator Bruce Willis.

And actually, there are Americans here that have already established the fact that at certain ages, you are forced

And actually, oh astute reader of the boards, you've read about the fact that our legal system has established that you CANNOT be forced to do so on these very boards; there was a court case that made the news and attracted big attention from the European crowd.

So yeah, some on this board feel they were "forced." If they wanted to get out of it, they could have.

Halo, Halo, Halo... ...wrong again. Will you never learn?

And actually, there are Americans here that have already established the fact that at certain ages, you are forced.You are never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, forced to recite the pledge. Period. Fin. End.

Anyone who has said otherwise is mistaken. While it is sometimes "expected" of you to do so, you are never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, forced to recite it.

The US Supreme Court has ruled so as early as 1943!It is very significant. In fact, one of the most significant and indeed moving opinions that the United States Supreme Court has ever written comes from 1943, in the middle of World War II, when the Supreme Court ruled that any child could refuse to say the pledge of allegiance in school. It came out a case involving the Jehovah's Witnesses, who had a religious objection, and they could not be penalized for not saying the pledge of allegiance."Established" my ass.

Keep on believing only the "facts" that you want to believe.

"Under God" was added to the pledge in 1956. It has also since been ruled recently by the 9th Circuit Court as something you can't even make people LISTEN TO if they don't want to - as everyone repeating "under God" has an indoctrination effect. So, I repeat, for those of you too dense to figure it out for yourselves:

You never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever have to recite the pledge of allegience - and you may even excuse yourself from others reciting the pledge of allegience, and it's been decided as such since 1943 by the highest court in our country.

In short: BZZZZZZZZT! Wrong answer.

The entirety of the 1943 Supreme Court decision can be found here: caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/sc...&invol=624 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=319&invol=624)

'Really, where did you go?'

- California/Nevada.

Palimax, I wasn't wrong when I said Americans in this thread reinforced the idea that people are forced. I think it was Talari who said they were from a young age.

'you were only forced in elementary school grades 1-5 (6) '

- And - if you've read a single word written in this thread - I'm talking about indirect force also. If you're too lazy/slow to read, I'll re-quote some stuff which was the topic for discussion (naturally you Yanks have to over-run it with a 'omg we rule' slandering speach).

'to do with ridiculing someone who's doing something other than the norm - something different than others. Perhaps kids aren't forced to do it officially, or by law, but IMO that in no way, at all, stops them from being forced to do it (peer pressure, isolation, confidence, teacher discipline, etc).'

'Force aside, do children at such a young and vunerable age (see: norm, peer pressure, etc) have a choice in their patriotism? Independent thoughts outside the collective norm at such an age like 10 years old, when all your friends, teachers, family, also support and salute the flag, is - let's get realistic - not going to be all about freewill.
Re-think your opinion of force in this context. It's not always direct.'

*They* are the issues of force that was actually brought up mainly in the original posts in this thread. And then later stabised by actual Americans reinforcing the idea of direct force. For your lazy pleasure...

'It's the ones who refuse to stand / hold their hand on their chest, that the teachers get pissed about, in spite of the fact that (in Maryland anyways)'

'I once got detention for refusing to say the pledge... this was like 2 years ago.'

'My home room teacher disagreed and gave me detention, and made me stand and say the pledge every day for the rest of the year and threatened to send me to the dreaded office if I didn't'

' most teachers are unaware of this, and will attempt to 'force' the child into saying the pledge. From my experiences, that's how it is anyways. (I'm currently a senior in high school, if that helps add any perspective.)'

- There's more than one way to skin a cat. Even, as you've said (and oddly to the unawares of almost every American in this thread) pledging isn't officially forced, or a law, it in no way eliminates force - direct or indirect - from people's lives.

Palimax, Plalimax, Palimax. What are we going to do with you?

For the record, I was never forced to take the pledge.

I was however, and feel free to enjoy this Ytrok, forced to thank god for my lunch and for ask for safety on the ride home at the end of the day. (I went to a parochial school.)

Though sometimes, being the rebel I was, instead of saying our prayers along with the rest of the class, I'd whisper the words to "Stairway to Heaven" instead. 8/

Try to read the thread, Halo. You're either not reading it or choosing to ignore it. You idea has already been addressed.

'I once got detention for refusing to say the pledge... this was like 2 years ago.'

'My home room teacher disagreed and gave me detention, and made me stand and say the pledge every day for the rest of the year and threatened to send me to the dreaded office if I didn't'

' most teachers are unaware of this, and will attempt to 'force' the child into saying the pledge. From my experiences, that's how it is anyways. (I'm currently a senior in high school, if that helps add any perspective.)'Thank goodness you based your insightful, fact-filled comentary about the United States on the experiences of school-children.

I find those stories like most urban legends: Lacking in substance, and long on exageration. Unless those children were at PRIVATE schools, they only demonstrate teachers who want to open them, and the schools, up to litigation. The events might have happened in public schools, but they did so at large risk of legal action.

I met plenty of teachers in my day that knew less than I did about something - and until they give you your grade, you just get to smile and nod...

The Americian Civil Liberties Union has sued on behalf of people "forced to pledge" on several occasions. They drove the recent 9th Circuit case I mentioned before.

It's odd that you find any sort of participation in a culture so distasteful and damaging. I recited the pledge 5 days a week, 9 months a year for the six or seven year between when I started shortly after kindergarten, and when I left 8th grade "middle school." It's part of my identity.

I similarly conform by wearing fashionable attire at work, mindlessly fitting in with those people I work with. I've even been known to stand with 50,000 other people, mindlessly watching the sports they beat into me every day on television and radio.

We are a nation of mindless lemmings, unable to escape our pledge indoctrination!

In fact, I blame saying that pledge every school morning as the defining moment in my inability to think for myself.

You know what... ...we like saying the pledge. Tears swell up in people's eyes at sporting events when we take off our hats and sing the national anthem. People cry when you play God Bless America. It didn't take 9/11 to make that true.

You don't have to force us.

"you still have the you have to be loyal feeling."

You still don't get it....I am loyal to my country and the ideals it represents....not to any one administration. Especially one I didn't vote for. Even if I had voted for this administration...they could (and do) do things I vehemently opposed. That does not stop me from loving my country.

Halo, it is of no use posting the errant statements of very young individuals on this board. If a teacher forces a child to say the pledge, they are breaking the law, nuff said case closed end of discussion. Believe me if the child was told to do this by a parent and was then forced to by a school(public anyways)....there would be a law suit so fast you could hear a sonic boom. Are they indirectly forced to go with the norm...yes. IMO there is nothing wrong with showing love for your country and it's ideals. My kids say the plegde, celebrate Independence Day and when they are a little older, will understand the ideals this country was founded on.

As Pal said, most of the flack around saying the pledge has to do with the "under god" phrase added in the 50's.

The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous Halo.

"Hmm.. Why dont Americans think like me? Oh it must be cause they were brainwashed in Grade school"

jesus.. your fucking stupid.

Let me give you something to think about,

I school we are thought that the highest mountain in Europe is the Mont-Blanc on the border of Italy, France and Switzerland. This is thought to children at elementary school level (4-12 years).
Well in fact the Mont-blanc is not the highest mountain in Europe. The highest mountain in Europe is somewhere in the Oeral in Russia, it is exactly 12 meters higher.
When I found this out I told it to some friends of mine.
Their reaction was, Can't be true we have been thought that the Mont-Blanc is the highest mountain and that’s it. They can't be wrong at school.
So I brought out the atlas and some more atlases etc.
Only half would believe me because they saw the evidence.
The other half kept denying. They used arguments like: the source is not trustworthy, must be a print error or its measured wrong.
In the end I gave up simply because it was useless trying to convince them, they simply did not wanne see the facts or believe that they where thought the wrong thing.

You know Halo is trolling when he starts off a topic with "I'm not flame baiting" ....

question.. why are we picking on american's when other countries national anthems go :

" DIE AMERICAN'S i hate americans! DIE AMERICAN'S i hate americans!! DIE AMERICAN'S " well not really but that what they teach their kids in alot of middle east countires.

Now is a perfect time for the pic of the 5 year old Palestinan kids in full militia dress with AK47s being forced to surround the little model of an Israeli camp, as part of their "training".

Try that for people being "forced" or "brainwashed"

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/10/images/1004_Afghan5.jpg
f33r m33!

How comes you compare yourself with the worst out there Talari?
Just because there are countries that are really pushing kids into the army and teach people to kill others doesn't mean that your way is the right one.
The quesiton is not whether there is anyone doing worse things then you. If you are accused of shooting someone in the leg, you cannot defend yourself in a court by saying "but other people kill others, so what I did is not that bad compared to them!". That doesn't really work.
There are dozens of nations that are "worse" then the US, in whatever way. The question is what is right and what is wrong, no matter what others do.

By the way just as very damn much you can find afghani children at the age of 8 carrying a gun (because they have been told to do so), you will find thousands of US kids at the age of 8 carrying a gun aswell when they go hunt with daddy. The picture will look the same.

This whole thread is about the fact that children are very easily manipulatable. No, you may all not have been forced to say the pledge. But if your teacher tells you to salute the flag, to say the pledge and you see all your fellow classmates doing so, at the age of 7, do you stand up and refuse saying it? NO! At the age of 7 you do not have the will and the self esteem to have a strong personal opinion. All you are is a reflection of what your parents tell you, your TV tells you, your teachers tell you. You do not have the understanding and even the possibility to form your own opinion.
You may not force a 7 years old child to say the pledge. But you can be sure that 99.9999% of all children will simply do it, no matter what, not knowing what they actually do (means they dont know they have a choice, whats it all about blabla they do not have the background needed to make such a decision). You will get the children to do it, you burn this patriotism iin a childs head. You don't have to force the kid to do so, they will just blindly do it.

I like switzerland. I would even go defend it if needed. But I have never ever saluted in front of my flag, I have never ever sung my national antheme, hell I don't even know the text. If I hear it on TV, once in a year, then I know "hey, thats our antheme" and that's it. Still I pay my taxes, I dont commit crimes, I defend my country in need and I am generally a good and loyal part of my society. But I am highlydisgusted by overdone patriotism, because it doesn't serve anything. The only thing you reach by overdone patriotism is
a) you generate ignorance towards the rest of the world
b) arrogance, you believe that you are better then all the others
c) you blindly follow your leaders because they always are right, you don't question, you're a sheep

If 10 people are being murdered in the states, I am just as shocked as if 10 people are being murdered in switzerland. Why? Because we are equal. We're all human beings. its not "less bad" just because those people were far away and not part of my country. Those people are not worth less to me! If I hear about guatemala people dying in a war, then its just as bad to me as if those people were swiss. They died. Human beings died, they all left families, friends behind them. And a guatemala family is fucking worth just as much as a swiss family. Of course, things change if my brother would die in a war. But if its people I don't know, then I don't give a flying fuck about the nationality of this person. Its a person that died. And this is a tragedy. Point out.

And patriotism helps in losing this understanding. You are deeply hurt by 9/11. You are shocked and have huge anger inside you. very understandable. But the sad thing is (and no, this is not only an american problem. its all over the world), if 9/11 would have happened in france, you'd give a flying fuck about it. You would say "oh thats bad" and go on doing your job. Because its french people. Or Swiss, or Nigerians, or Chinese. You don't give a fuck. This is very very sad. We have this here in switzerland aswell. If a swiss person dies in lets say, turkey, then you have a headline about this person being killed in theiur vacation blabla. And on page 34 of the newspaper you have a very very small line about "387 people died in Congo at the latest civil war week". Hello? How fucked up is that?! Its our culture. Its patriotism. I really don't give a damn about one swiss person dying in vacation when at the same time there are 500 millions starving to death, there are 3000 people dying each day by civil wars in africa.
And I don't give a shit about 2 US soldiers dying in iraq from a bomb. I simply don't. Because there is much much much worse on this planet, every single day.
But the US (and other countries) start wars based on the death of 1-2 people. If an american soldier dies in iraq from a sniper, its a huge deal and in the media all over and has huge consequences and bush gets more money and and and.
But that there are like 30 americans being killed in america by other americans, that doesn't matter. That every 2 seconds a child at the age of not even 5 years dies from hunger. That doesn't even make it in the news.
This is what patriotism does to you.
You ignore the rest of the world, only you and your country matters. This is why its so dangerous. And no its not just a US problem. The US are just a prime example with their insane stars and stripes / "god bless america" addiction.

I'd like to thank Gulor for his very good posts. Your words and arguments showed me a lot and actually make a lot of sense. We disagree in a lot of points, but with the way you type and explain and simply.. discuss, it is possible to actually read eachothers words, think about it and understand eachother, even if we don't agree. its a pleasure to read your opinion.

Taino :
How comes you compare yourself with the worst out there Talari?
Just because there are countries that are really pushing kids into the army and teach people to kill others doesn't mean that your way is the right one.
The quesiton is not whether there is anyone doing worse things then you. If you are accused of shooting someone in the leg, you cannot defend yourself in a court by saying "but other people kill others, so what I did is not that bad compared to them!". That doesn't really work.
There are dozens of nations that are "worse" then the US, in whatever way. The question is what is right and what is wrong, no matter what others do.

Taino, NO WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY!! thats the way i personally feel. In Tao(i think thats it) your religion one of you moto's is "do not hurt anything" or something like that correct? Now, when americans sing the national anthem.. are you offended because of the pride we have in our country? The main question is DO WE HURT YOU when we sing it?

If you were mentally sane your answer would be 'no, it doesnt hurt me'. Now take this for an example, you hear on the news that a country now teaches to hate and kill everyone thats is from switzerland. Now.. when you hear this.. do you feel hurt? Do you feel offended? What im am trying to do is give you a feel from the american point of view. No one truly has a thing against switzerland (i dont think). But if alot of people did.. and i mean ALOT of people did.. you would be a different person.

Do you really think americans like being hated? Americans have such big egos and think we are the best because we have done the impossiable about 200+ years ago. Yep you guessed it. The Americans shouldn't have won their independence from england... if you look at the factors it was really a long shot... and i still have a hard time understanding how we won. Now dont go into all the bullshit like "Talari wtf u traitor." No just look at the Facts, We are soo fucking lucky, and somehow.. we won.. we beat the best army in the world ( at the time ) and that basically gave us a big part of our egos and stuff.

if 9/11 would have happened in france, you'd give a flying fuck about it. hell yes i would.

I gotta add something... alot of people were brain washed that all americas are the same.. We are all jerry springer, redneck trash.. But we aren't.. well most of us arent.. alot of people dont realize that, which really makes me upset.

I am proud to be an American.

This whole thread is about the fact that children are very easily manipulatable.

Yet you ignore anything that shows your position on that topic to be wrong.

Explain why children who are "forced" to say the pledge of allegiance grow up to protest war and protest our government. Your and Halo's view seems to be that it should be impossible.

No of course its not impossible. However the possibility that a kid is free from influences, free to believe and think what they want and especailly the possiblity that the child will not be a sheep are much much smaller.
You do not force people into things. But you suggerate, "suggest", advice and and and so that it is hardly possible to create an own opinion. Thats the whole point.

I pledge alleigence to the flag of the United States of America, And to the republic for which it stands. One nation under god with LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.


What the fuck. Are you mad that we are brainwashing our childred to be free and just?

So what you are saying Taino is that we should not pass down any morals, values, or traditions to our children. If we do we are forcing them to be sheep. Think a bit on what you are saying.

We believe in the pledge, it reiterates things we belive in...freedom, justice, liberty. We are instilling in our children our beliefs. The very fact that these beliefs are about freedom and liberty are what empower them to think and act freely.

"free to believe" is exactly what the pledge says "with liberty and justice for all"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This whole thread is about the fact that children are very easily manipulatable. No, you may all not have been forced to say the pledge. But if your teacher tells you to salute the flag, to say the pledge and you see all your fellow classmates doing so, at the age of 7, do you stand up and refuse saying it? NO! At the age of 7 you do not have the will and the self esteem to have a strong personal opinion. All you are is a reflection of what your parents tell you, your TV tells you, your teachers tell you. You do not have the understanding and even the possibility to form your own opinion.
You may not force a 7 years old child to say the pledge. But you can be sure that 99.9999% of all children will simply do it, no matter what, not knowing what they actually do (means they dont know they have a choice, whats it all about blabla they do not have the background needed to make such a decision). You will get the children to do it, you burn this patriotism iin a childs head. You don't have to force the kid to do so, they will just blindly do it.What's your point? That's why kids do everything... I hope it's how my daughter learns to do all sorts of things, like brush her teeth and say "please," "sorry," and "excuse me." She learns by example. That's how children learn. ...you keep acting as if learning to salute the flag and say the pledge are bad things, as if children shouldn't be exposed to that terrible indoctrination into our culture.

You keep belly-aching over and over about "they don't have to, but they learn to because everyone else does." Well duh. Nobody in their right mind would argue that point because it's senseless.

CHILDREN LEARN EVERYTHING THAT WAY!

And as they get older, they have the opportunity to make up their own minds about how they feel about it. I'm (mostly) agnostic, but my daughter goes to church with her mom. I feel exactly the same way about it. Until she's old enough to make an informed decision about how she feels about religion (or our flag), she'll learn some good values, and she'll learn about how to interact with people in that setting.

Next you're probably going to explain to us how repeatedly demonstrating to children over and over that everyone ELSE wears pants brainwashes them into thinking they should wear pants.

So what you are saying Taino is that we should not pass down any morals, values, or traditions to our children. If we do we are forcing them to be sheep. Think a bit on what you are saying.
Saluting to the flag every morning saying the pledge is not morals, values and tradition. Its simply empowering overdone patriotism. I have morals, I have values, I have traditions and I never in my whole fucking life saluted my flag. And I made all my opinions, experiences and judgments free from any pressure or "suggestions" from my country.

That you want to stand for freedom, liberty and justice for everyone (as you say in your pledge) is a good thing. But the main point is not this. The point is that its all about "our america" about "we are the goodies, we are the best, god bless america and fuck the rest, one country to rule them all, one country to bind them, one country to find them all and in the darkness bind them". As much as you get taught to respect and love your country, you always get suggearted to "fuck the rest" and "follow the leader and whatever we tell you".

Yes I am exagerating. But still, it does not have to be, this ritual is really in my opinion overdoing things. I am a perfectly good member of this country I live in, I dont commit crimes, I am loyal, I like my cuontry, but I dont dislike the rest, I believe everyone is worth the same, I disagree with my government a lot, I am thankful, I pay my taxes, I have my own will, I have a freedom of speech and I use it, I have enough money to live, I am free, I am just, I am openminded and I never ever fucking saluted my flag, nor say any pledge.

If you're so open-minded, why do you hold the rest of the world to your exact standards?

(I had 40 mins' worth of rebuttal for your post at the top of this page, but my browser crashed, so this will have to do.)

I have a union jack tee-shirt,does that make me a patriot ? :)

Saluting to the flag every morning saying the pledge is not morals, values and tradition.First, Pledge-Expert(tm), you don't salute the flag during the Pledge. You stand and place your hand over your heart (well, over your breast where people imagine the heart to be).When the Pledge is being given, all should stand with the right hand over the heart, fingers together and horizontal with the arm at as near a right angle as possible. After the words "justice to all," the arm should drop to the side. While giving the Pledge of Allegiance all should face the flag.

According to Colonel Moss, no disrespect is displayed by giving the Pledge with a gloved hand over the heart, but he calls our attention to the fact that an Army Officer or an enlisted man always removes his right glove upon taking his oath as a witness. The Daughters of the American Revolution follow the custom of having the right hand ungloved.

The only people who SALTUTE the flag are in military service - and they do so , and since we haven't drafted anyone in the last couple of decades, the only people saluting ANYTHING are people who signed up to salute thing. Anyone in the service can tell you this, but these are the rules for flag saluting:Salute the flag...
When it is six paces from the viewer and hold it until the flag has passed six paces beyond. Salute the flag at the first note of the National Anthem and hold the salute until the last note is played. Never use a flag as a decoration – use bunting.

When in civilian attire...
MEN remove hats and hold at left shoulder with hand over heart; without hat, place right hand, palm open, over heart. WOMEN should place right hand, palm open, over heart. When in athletic clothing, face the flag or music, remove hat or cap and stand at attention; a hand salute is not given.Once again, since you're a bit slow on US culture, that's for people in military service. That's not for us civilian-types. We can salute or ignore the flag as we damned well please.

Similarly, it is custom here, during National Anthems to stand and remove your hat. It is propper is small or formal situations to stand quietly while it plays. In public settings it is appropriate, if one wishes, to sing along.

Its simply empowering overdone patriotism. You think patriotism is a ditry word. I guess that's what makes us different.

Patriotism can be overdone Palimax.Look at the way Germans followed Hitler because they belived it was for the good of the ' Father-Land ' .
That was an extreme case,but look at what it nearly did to the world.In conclusion,imo partiotism can be overdone.But everyone is an individual and should be free to be as patriotic,or non-patriotic as they want to be.
I guess my point is,patriotism with thought and insight.Such as knowing that your country isn`t perfect,questioning the decisions leaders make,to be sure that the path of your patriotism stays democratic.
( Not blindly agreeing with whatever some moron on TV says,Even if they do happen to be president of your country),

That can be a healty kind of pride to have in your country.But the other kind that involves separatist attitudes and Mindless bigotry can only hurt the already fragile line the US is walking with world public opinion.

And,i know alot of people say,we are from the US,we don`t care what anyone thinks of us.But having so much of the worlds population resenting or outright hating the US isn`t a good thing at all :(

Did I say it couldn't be overdone?

No.

I said some of you act like it's a dirty word.

By the way just as very damn much you can find afghani children at the age of 8 carrying a gun (because they have been told to do so), you will find thousands of US kids at the age of 8 carrying a gun aswell when they go hunt with daddy. The picture will look the same.

I had to respond to this. Sorry, but there's no comparison here Taino. Or rather, you put it more accurately yourself: "when they go hunt with daddy".

From what we've seen, a large number of these Middle Eastern kiddies are trained to not only "go hunt with daddy", but "go kill Westerners/Americans with daddy".

THAT'S the difference. We may have a society with many guns, but I very seriously doubt that we instill the same kind of hatred into our children for other races on the same level that these people do.

--Cen

-Saluting to the flag every morning saying the pledge is not morals, values and tradition. Its simply empowering overdone patriotism. I have morals, I have values, I have traditions and I never in my whole fucking life saluted my flag. And I made all my opinions, experiences and judgments free from any pressure or "suggestions" from my country.-

Good for you, but that is your OPINION of the pledge here in the US and not fact. Perhaps you feel this way because the flag in your country doesn't represent anything for you. Here in America, the flag represents many things for many people, least of which represent the lives of americans who gave their life to defend this country. I'm ignorant of swiss history so I'm not sure how many swiss lives were lost in defending the ideas of your country in the last 100 years. The US has had to deal with more bodies coming home in coffins fighting in foreign lands than it cares to bear.

I am an immigrant to the US. When I first recited the pledge of allegiance I did not understand its meaning because I didn't speak the language. Once my english got well enough to understand it, I enjoyed saying it because the message stood for something great and not because everyone was doing it. Once I understood the words, I could have choosen to stop reciting and join some kids in class who weren't, without fear of ridicule because it is our american right not too.

Read the words carefully, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under god (optional), indivisible with liberty and justice of all"

Explain to me what parts of those lines make sheeps out of us? If believing in the idea of liberty and justice for all in a country that thinks of itself as one united nation even with all the diversity in culture, customs, ideology and ethnicity, well then, all I can say is Baaaaaaaaaaaa.

Having said that, I live in southern california and the rich diversity of friends I have from all over the world, such as Iran, India, Pakistan, Iraq, Russia, Armenia, China...etc, you would call these Americans sheep also because they are loyal to the US and because they stand up and pledged the flag for what it stands for? These friends of mine are immigrants as well and ideologically they believe in the ideas of liberty and freedom this country was founded on. Are you saying that these people have been brainwashed etc.. to think they way they do eventhough a few have been here less that 2 years in this country?

I would have to disagree with those of you here that are insisting that pledging to the flag is indoctrinating americans into becoming mindless drones. Please expain why if Americans are being brainwashed into becoming over patriotic drones that there were such massive demonstrations of the vietnam war, for starters.

a glass of wine a night at dinner is good for you..

6 glasses.. a couple beers and some shots isnt...

Please expain why if Americans are being brainwashed into becoming over patriotic drones that there were such massive demonstrations of the vietnam war, for starters.
Did the protests start before or after the body bags came home?

Yes Ytrok..

We had anti war protests before the war..
Mostly from psychics and people who could tell the future...
Some people just wanted to protest something.. so they invented a war to protest...
Others knew they would be busy later in the decade.. so they did a pre-emptive protest.. just in case we went to war at some point...
I myself am going out and protesting something today.. Im not sure what.. But Ill take a blank sign with me.. take a picture.. and photoshop a message when an issue arises.. its a good idea really..

At least we are to the really tragedy here.. saying the pledge of allegience totally erases a persons ability to predict the future.. =(

btw.. just in the off chance you wanted to educate yourself ytrok
ohoh.essortment.com/vietn...t_rlcz.htm (http://ohoh.essortment.com/vietnamwarprot_rlcz.htm)

-Did the protests start before or after the body bags came home?-

Americans were protesting the Vietnam War before the body bags came home. They protested because they didnt' want American involvement there. Some protested because they are oppose to conflict in general. Others joined the protests after the body bags came home. So now that I've cleared up that for you, please explain why a nation of mindless drones brainwashed by the pledge of allegiance would have the ability to protest against it's own government for being involved in Vietnam instead of just blindly following our government and saying Baaaaaaaaaa.

I would not know why sheep would do such a thing.
Then again I don't know why sheep say baaaaaa to begin with either.

Maybe you as a specialist can explain??

Or maybe you have nothing else of value to add to the thread and have been pwned.

Pretty much sums it up Kein.


Ibudin

Give it up, Ytrok, et. al - our national pledge in no way influences our ability to think, brainwashes us into supporting our government or any of these other ridiculous agendas you seem to invent in order to attempt to discredit the U.S.

Want another example? My parents are both staunch liberals and have joined many anti-Bush campaigns, anti-Iraq invasion protests and other similar actions against the current administration.

Despite all this, I still firmly support Bush and the action he's taken so far.

Your judgment that we have no ability to think for ourselves, that we are "sheep", (through all the little implied innuendos in your posts), that we are brainwashed as children - is about as far off as one can get.

--Cen

I stand when I head my national anthem as well, just as you guys do on major sporting events etc.

Personally I just see the pledge said in the US and flag saluting as something that can be classified as a mere cultural difference and leave it at that..

Its just a difference that came from the difference in your countries history vs. mine, with my "nation" if you so will having twice the age and created by the merger of Erikar, Folkungar and Svear.. :P But I dont want to start talking about Swedish history here as I will prolly bore you to death with stories about our earlier kings and wars across europe :)

Hmm,can`t think of anything more to say about the whole national anthem thing :) Instead i`ll just say this.
British sports > all others,especially US sports :rollin
Though nothing beats the time honoured EQ tradition of Gnome punting! ;)

< Gn0m3.H4t3r_001

I would not know why sheep would do such a thing.
Then again I don't know why sheep say baaaaaa to begin with either.

Maybe you as a specialist can explain??

I took your question seriously and answered it respectfully in order to have an semi-intelligent dialogue about our differing views and you reply with that crap to avoid answering the question and take a jab at me merely for asking a question that required some thought in order to answer. This only shows me that you have no class nor the humility to adimit that your view on the issue may not have a leg to stand on. If there was any merit in your stance, it was lost when you opened your mouth and showed us you are suffering from diahrrea of the mouth.

owned

Didn't mean to offend you ... seriously.

Apologies are in order I guess, so ... sorry bout that.

Yes I was owned (as you like to call it) for the simple reason that no way on earth will any of you see that been "moved" into something day in day out will shape you in a way the one that "moves" you into that position wants.

Same as we grow up saying grace at dinner, same as we get tought to have respect for people etc etc .. No one can deny this and the fun thing about this thread is that people keep denying that this happens every day where they come from (btw, same happens in my country don't get me wrong).

Ah well....

Once again .. apologies for my shitty comment, there was no use for making it, I guess I got tired to try and get some sense into some people and lost it...

Greets

a glass of wine a night at dinner is good for you..

6 glasses.. a couple beers and some shots isnt...
That's pretty much how I feel.
This is how I feel about the "god bless america" thingie, the stars and stripes, the saluting the flag, the pledge and so on. I apologize if you feel insulted because I am abusing your words, but that pretty much sums it up how I feel about american patriotism. You know in switzerland we also have patriotism. As I grabbed my rifle in the army, it was a huge ceremony, I had to repeat stuff, there was a swiss flag, and they said things like "Soldier, here I give you your rifle, to protect your father country, you become a true swiss man now blabla yadda yadda". What a bullshit. Anyways, we do have those things aswell. We don't salute the flag, but we also have similar things.
But I was asked to do "such things" once in my life, maybe twice. With you people get "asked" to do so at the age of 6 and then for the rest of their lifes in this or that way.

I just personally feel that its overdone and more then a healthy amount. yes it may also be because Hitler started out this way aswell. I know so, I know how Hitler got his power and trust me, it all started very very similar and with the same words and tactics as Bush is talking to you. Hitler just took it to the extreme. And the US will most likely never get there. But hell, the start of it is just the same. Words are similar and many actions are similar. That's maybe aswell why I act so "touchy" about it.

Yes I was owned (as you like to call it) for the simple reason that no way on earth will any of you see that been "moved" into something day in day out will shape you in a way the one that "moves" you into that position wants

How does this in any way relate to the pledge?

You really amaze me. You are probabaly the most "brainwashed" poster on this board. You spout the same line over and over again no matter how many times you are proved wrong.

Maybe you think "free thinking" means fight the majority. It is a pretty trap. But it is just as senseless as a lemming following all the others over a cliff.

What's your point? That's why kids do everything... I hope it's how my daughter learns to do all sorts of things, like brush her teeth and say "please," "sorry," and "excuse me." She learns by example. That's how children learn. ...you keep acting as if learning to salute the flag and say the pledge are bad things, as if children shouldn't be exposed to that terrible indoctrination into our culture.

You hit the nail on the head and don't even realize what you said was exactly the point Taino, Ralf and some of the others are trying to make.
The point is that if you tell someone something repeatedly they will begin to believe it and life accordingly.
This is especially true with young children in elementary school.
The example I gave earlier clearly makes that point.
If you teach children something they are in allot of cases not able to except any different opinion in later life.
No matter how much evidence you produce.
Only few people are able to rationalise this and look at the evidence and then change their opinion accordingly.

My example shows that people are not even able to except a difference based on pure facts.
You really think they will be able to make a sound change of heart based on a subjective feeling??

If you tell someone from elementary school on, that the USA is the most beautiful and best country in the world, they will start to believe it.
And there is no way anyone can make these people think otherwise, they are in fact "brainwashed".
So there is no way anyone can convince most Americans that the USA might not be the most beautiful and best country in the world, no matter how much evidence you present or how good you're arguments are.
Simply because they are taught differently.
My example also show that clearly.

True free thought is rare, I believe only a small minority of people are capable of really free thought.
Most people will just act as they are taught.

"If you tell someone from elementary school on, that the USA is the most beautiful and best country in the world, they will start to believe it"

The pledge does not say this.

"So there is no way anyone can convince most Americans that the USA might not be the most beautiful and best country in the world"

It also does not say this. And as a "brainwashed" american, I do not think the US is the "most Beautiful" place in the world. I do believe it is the best place to live for me. I do not, by any stretch, think it is even close to perfect.

"True free thought is rare, I believe only a small minority of people are capable of really free thought."

with liberty and justice for all...what terrible ideals to be teaching impressionable young children :'/

"Most people will just act as they are taught"

Thank god, think of the chaos if this were not true.


The difference here is that one opinion is that saying a pledge is being taught not to have an opinion, not to have free thought. My opinion is that saying the pledge is stating that you do believe in giving and protecting the rights of people to have free thought. That is why I like my kids saying it.

I gotta get into advertising, maybe in Europe. If forcing children to say the pledge once a day 5 days/week makes them nationalistic zealouts, think how effective television advertising must be.

'Give it up, Ytrok, et. al - our national pledge in no way influences our ability to think, brainwashes us into supporting our government '

'Despite all this, I still firmly support Bush and the action he's taken so far.'

- Lol. How are those WoMD coming along?
Bahhhhh (that's my sheep noise. Needs some work).

think how effective television advertising must be.
Ehm .. it's kinda effective in case you haven't noticed.

We ... as parents are responsible for what we teach our kids. We are responsible for how they start in this life because they will do what we teach them...

If I raise my kid to be a racist, then he will be one untill the moment he gets confronted with the fact that this is not so and is willing to "betray" (cause that is what the kid will feel like) his parents.

So untill that time he will hate everyone he was tought to hate .. same as radical fundamentalists do to their kids.

We .. the parents "train" our kids so we put them in the right direction untill the time comes that they will have to move on on their own. Some will keep doing as they were told to follow in their parents footsteps as they are proud/scared of their parents. Some will do totally the opposite and rebel against their parents, some will move somewhere in the middle.

To say that because people protest there can be no brainwashing going on is false, it just shows that people are difficult to controle and there will always be people who will be different. In some countries the people who are different get shot, in the west they usually get ignored, insulted, put in some damnation corner etc etc (as we see happen so often on this board), in some countries they get respected for standing up and speak out.

We .. as people are like animals. Teach us tricks day in day out and chances are we will follow them through and sometimes even improve them tricks on our kids .. just like animals teach their young to do what they have to do to survive.
The climat we live in decides how we as people respond, the government that controls us gives us the values and moral we need to live by, the adults teach these values (to some extend) to their kids etc etc ...

It's all fine to say I never saluted to the flag, yet you have a very strong loyalty to your country because you have been taught to do so, by your parents, your environment, your country etc etc ..
If you want to ignore the fact that we act the way we were taught then so be it ..

Oh .. yes we do at some age create our own vision of the world .. sometimes we don't.
People also get pushed in a certain lifestyle and life opinion by their economic situation, by where they live (ghetta vs beverly hills) by the amount of sunlight (suicides due to depression in darker area's etc etc)

Everyone, you and me included are the result of the amoiunt of information that we have received and have been able to adapt too ...

No I am not english so feel free to attack me on certain issues where I expressed myself wrong, if you read the entire piece I am sure you will get the big picture of things.

We .. the parents "train" our kids so we put them in the right direction untill the time comes that they will have to move on on their own.

This contradicts what has been asserted in this thread. Choose one:

1. The kids are brainwashed by saying the pledge of allegiance.
2. The kids are not brainwashed by saying the pledge of allegiance, and will instead listen to their (possibly sensible) parents and eventually make their own decision.

Read the entire piece and you know the answer...

I know how Hitler got his power and trust me, it all started very very similar and with the same words and tactics as Bush is talking to you. Hitler just took it to the extreme.


And Stalin used the same words and tactics you use, he just took it to the extreme.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. I think the way we view this particular topic has more to do with how we view patriotism itself.

Any overt display of patriotism makes some people nervous. In my opinion that is due to the fact that many extremist groups try to use patriotism as a tool to increase their ranks and a number of people have come to associate overt patriotism with these extremist groups. Am I wrong?

If I made an unconcious association between "flag waving" and the nazi party for example, I too would feel nervous when the most militarily potent nation exhibits overt patriotism. But let me explain something about the American culture to those that might not fully appreciate it. Patriotism in America is not so much a recent and short lived phenomenon. It is more of a tradition and part and parcel of our unique culture.

When your country is primarily comprised of immigrants, you need something to unify them, to make them a cohesive body. Two things are especially effective at this. Language is the first, and an identifiable symbol of commonality such as a flag or a unique identity is the other (i.e. identifying yourself as American).

Some of the most patriotic Americans are recent immigrants and first generation Americans. The reason for this is they have that identity of being an American in common with their neighbors, even though their family may have recently come from somewhere else. The strengthening of the bonds between citizens of vastly different origins is a good thing in our society. Patriotism serves a beneficial service to American citizens by making it easier for us to identify with each other, to have something in common. We don't have the negative experience with nationalism/patriotism that many other countries have experienced. To us, it is a positive and different experience altogether than what others may have associated with it.

Teaching children to mind their parents and respect authority may be said to be "brainwashing" also, but it is beneficial training. That is how we see patriotism as it is experienced in the US. As beneficial training. It may or may not work, but teaching someone to respect our constitution and the idea behind it is a worthwhile effort IMO.

I hope some of what I said makes sense to you. It is difficult to explain different mindsets sometimes, but I think it is worthwhile to try and understand each other better.

Thanks Gulor ..

And yes I understand your post as it is only common sense that we try and move our kids to accomplish something for our entire country. People who deny this are the ones who have yet to move out of this pattern and look at it from the "outside".

Nice post Gulor!!

People who deny this are the ones who have yet to move out of this pattern and look at it from the "outside".

Not really sure what you are trying say here.....

I try to understand what things look like to people on the "outside". But alas, not being on the outside makes it very difficult. I do, however, understand that nationalistic ferver has led people to do dispicable acts in the past. This coupled the Afgan and Iraq invasions has gotten many "outsiders" nervous about what a Bush will do next. The pledge looks like nationalistic fervor, and in a way it is...but it's the inherent message in the pledge (liberty and justice for all) that makes it far from a blind devotion to a particular leader (who does not represent these values).

You can look at it from the "inside" or you can look at it from the "outside." The view that 5-year-olds reciting the pledge shows some sort of nationalistic fervor (to borrow your phrase) is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Patriotism can be overdone Palimax.Look at the way Germans followed Hitler because they belived it was for the good of the ' Father-Land ' .

Oh no!

I invoke Goodwin's law.

Professor Goodwin, U of I, in 1981 made the observation that Usenet discussions gravitate downhill.

He postulated that as the length of a discussion thread grows, the probability approaches one (1) that one participant will introduce the terms "Hitler" or "Nazi".
The custom has evolved that the first party to utter "Hitler" or "Nazi" has lost the discussion, and the thread terminates.

I agree Mirdorr...but from the "outside" their ignorance of it's meaning to American's was blowing it out of proportion. Hopefully, at least some can now see it for the mole hill it is.

I just personally feel that its overdone and more then a healthy amount. yes it may also be because Hitler started out this way aswell. I know so, I know how Hitler got his power and trust me, it all started very very similar and with the same words and tactics as Bush is talking to you. Hitler just took it to the extreme

Wrong Taino.. Hitler used extreme Racism as a means to power..
Germany was on the edge of total collapse due to Versaille treaty and Hitler use anti sematism and jews as scapegoats as a means to power.
His was a ideology of Racial superiorty.. Thats what allowed him to invade neighboring terrorities.. supposedly to unite Aryan people and free them from jewish oppression.

It wasnt love of country/patriotism that turned Germans into what they became.. it was hate and racism.

with liberty and justice for all...what terrible ideals to be teaching impressionable young children :'/

Liberty and Justice for Every citizen who takes this pledge and becomes a citizen.


maybe the ideal that ONLY if you take the pledge you have the right to liberty and justice.
And as you know we in Europe have never taken the pledge and we are not citizens of the USA.
With this pledge you deny everyone who has not taken it the right to liberty and justice.
I agree it does not state that directly, but it implies it and that's enough for young impressional children.

As far as I know there are 2 very important songs in the US
The national anthem, and Oh beautiful America.
My reference waas made to the latter song.
This thread is about patriotism not just about the pledge.

Congratulations, with this statement:


maybe the ideal that ONLY if you take the pledge you have the right to liberty and justice


You have taken over as the official posterchild of the Ignorant Euro®

maybe the ideal that ONLY if you take the pledge you have the right to liberty and justice. And as you know we in Europe have never taken the pledge and we are not citizens of the USA.


This just means we will not fight to protect YOUR liberty or justice. We will only protect our own selves. ,,,,,,,,,,,, oops my bad thats just not true.

Congratulations, with this statement:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

maybe the ideal that ONLY if you take the pledge you have the right to liberty and justice

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You have taken over as the official posterchild of the Ignorant Euro®


I dare you to do the following test :
Go to an elementary school where the pledge is mandatory and ask the children the following questions :
1. Do you know what the pledge of allegiance is?
2. Do you know why you have to say that every day?
3. Can you explain to me what you think this means?
4. Can you explain to me what liberty and justice means?
5. What happens to children who do not take this pledge?
6. Do you think children who do not take this pledge have a right to freedom and justice?

I can guarrantee you that the outcome will be quite shocking.

This just means we will not fight to protect YOUR liberty or justice. We will only protect our own selves. ,,,,,,,,,,,, oops my bad thats just not true.


I think it is true.

I dare you to do the following test :
Go to an elementary school where the pledge is mandatory and ask the children the following questions :

And, I dare you to do that test...

BECAUSE THE PLEDGE IS NOT MANDATORY ANYWHERE!

GET THAT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING SKULLS!

But Palimax, this d00d I liek know told me taht if you liek don't say teh pledgezor, you get kicked out of America!11!

Go to an elementary school where the pledge is mandatory and ask the children the following questions

Thats like asking a preschooler to do algebra, it just doesnt happen, you dont learn fully what it means until you take US history in like 6th grade, where, exactly like elementary school, its not mandatory to pledge.

But im sure you could tell me your countries history while you were learning your ABC's too right?

Contrary to what you might be thinking balogh, my 3 decades of life in the US coupled with my American public schooling give me a good deal more knowledge about this matter than you have sitting over in Europe looking at 3rd hand(or worse) information.

Now settle down, you're already the posterchild - you don't have anything else to prove.

We .. as people are like animals.

Umm NO!

I can guarrantee you that the outcome will be quite shocking.

Yeah, it would be pretty shocking if the 6 year olds started quoting the Constitution and expounded at length on judicial interpretations of freedom of speech law.

I LOVE THE USA (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/09/15/offbeat.mn.flag.tv.ap/index.html)


This was a quote with in the story.

A new state law requires school children to say the pledge at least once a week



Ibudin

BECAUSE THE PLEDGE IS NOT MANDATORY ANYWHERE!


I'm sorry I was misinformed then, I got the info from this link provided in a different thread.

news9sanantonio.com/content/education/?ArID=4189&SecID=99 (http://news9sanantonio.com/content/education/?ArID=4189&SecID=99)

I'm sorry I was misinformed.

Thats like asking a preschooler to do algebra, it just doesnt happen, you dont learn fully what it means until you take US history in like 6th grade, where, exactly like elementary school, its not mandatory to pledge.

To be able to make the decision to say the pledge yes or no, you would have to be able to make a distinction between right and wrong and good and bad.
If you believe children in elementary school are able to make such a decision, then yes it would be there free choise.
My argument is that children at that age are not capable to make that decision. This opinion is not that strange since even the laws are based on that assumption (below 18 you're a minor etc etc).
To believe children of that age can make a founded decision about whether or not to say the pledge is just plain wrong IMO.
They will follow the masses and do what the teacher or their parents tell them (most of the times).
You' re very naive if you think children of that age are gonne go against the masses, to do so would make them an outcast.
This is what is called peer-pressure I believe.

Yeah, it would be pretty shocking if the 6 year olds started quoting the Constitution and expounded at length on judicial interpretations of freedom of speech law.

Thats my point, the children can't either yet they are expected to make a choice based on this knowledge.
Which offcourse they can't, so they will follow the masses and do what the teachers and fellow students do.

Let me get one thing straight, I'm not against saying the pledge as an adult, or against believing the country you live in is the best, the most beautifull etc.
But to think a child in elementary school can make a sound good underlined decision about this is simply wrong.

Action by the St. Paul school board and Minnesota Legislature will now provide that opportunity. Legislation passed in the 2003 session requires all Minnesota public schools, including charter schools, to recite the Pledge of Allegiance at least once a week. Individuals have the right not to participate. The law also allows school districts to opt out of the requirement through a vote of the school board.

Keys here...the only forces schools districts to provide the oportunity to say it. It does not force them to say it.

I have not been arguing that peer pressure does not make it a practically forced ritual. What I am arguing is that respect and loyalty for our constitution is a desirable result, making this particular ritual a beneficial one. There are lots of forced rituals impressed upon school age children around the world (school uniforms being a common one) that more or less stress conformity in much the same way as the pledge. That does not mean the children are being denied the ability or opportunity to see or hear opposing viewpoints, it just means that certain standards of community behavior are desired and reinforced.

What I am arguing is that respect and loyalty for our constitution is a desirable result, making this particular ritual a beneficial one.

How does saying a pledge benefit creating respect and loyalty?
I don't see it.
Teaching children to have respect for others and teaching them to respect different opinions is much more benificial IMO, then saying a pledge.
A pledge is only benificial if you trully stand behind it and believe it, otherwise it are just words without a meaning.
Rituals are very strong instruments and they should be used wisely.
History has taught us that lesson the hard way.

There are lots of forced rituals impressed upon school age children around the world (school uniforms being a common one) that more or less stress conformity in much the same way as the pledge.

I agree with that in general, allthough I disagree with you're example of the school uniform(but i don't wanne drag that in to this discussion).

That does not mean the children are being denied the ability or opportunity to see or hear opposing viewpoints, it just means that certain standards of community behavior are desired and reinforced.

What standards are that and what is so desirable about it?
The only thing I see when reading the pledge is patriotism and in a sence segregation from the rest of the world.
I don't see how this benefits American society.
If you mean that it brings the US people closer together then this is true to a certain extend.
It also encourages the us against the rest of the world feeling.
There is a thin line between patriotism and extremism.

How does saying a pledge benefit creating respect and loyalty?
I don't see it.
Teaching children to have respect for others and teaching them to respect different opinions is much more benificial IMO, then saying a pledge.

Most of this thread seems to be based on the idea that those outside the U.S. think that saying a pledge and repecting different opions are mutually exclusive.

There is no reason to think that.

Wow...The Pledge also encourages the us against the rest of the world feeling.What the hell?

In what part of the Pledge of Allegience do you think its authors seek to insprire an us-vs-them attitude?

Perhaps it's: "I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America." - that seems pretty xenophobic.

Maybe it's "and to the republic for which it stands" - uh huh, more kill-those-who-aren't-us-rhetoric there.

Or it might even be "one nation under god." - That's might be it.

I know. It must be the "with liberty and justice for all." part.

After writing this, I don't know what it is, but the words... ...they've moved me. I love... ...us.... ...and I hate.... ....them!

The spectacular part about your post isn't the acusation that the Pledge helps foster the "Us versus Them" mentality of the United States; but that you're sitting wherever you're stitting thinking that the US *has* an us versus them mentality that we try to brainwash into children so we can continue our world domination.

Most of this thread seems to be based on the idea that those outside the U.S. think that saying a pledge and repecting different opions are mutually exclusive.

That depends on the pledge this is not by definition true.

But I ask you to read the pledge of allegiance criticly.
And by doing so take it literaly and then try to imagine what it means to you if you did not stand behind that statement.
Maybe you will see what i mean, by saying that it is quite threatening to people who are not from the USA or do not support it.

Maybe you will see what i mean, by saying that it is quite threatening to people who are not from the USA or do not support it.BWAHAHAHAHA!

No, seriously, stop, you're killing me. I'm laughing so hard I can barely type this.

The PoA threatens non-americians. Holy shit that's a hoot.

If they removed the 'under God' (which, as has already been stated, was added courtesy of the Eisenhower administration in 1954 to emphasize that we weren't 'Godless commies') from the Pledge, I'd be perfectly happy with it. Remove that little bit and all it says is that we pledge allegiance to our country, a republic where everyone has (or should have) liberty and justice. Seriously, how heinous is that?

As it stands however, on occasions where the Pledge is said, I usually put my hand on my heart, face the flag, and simply keep a moment of silence in reverence for my country and the liberties it stands for.

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

And by doing so take it literaly and then try to imagine what it means to you if you did not stand behind that statement.

Sigh.

1. There is nothing, I repeat nothing, in the Pledge that, taken literally, is inherently bad. Period. You REALLY REALLY have to work hard to MAKE it seem bad.

2. In this country, it is acceptable, as we've pointed out TIME AND TIME AGAIN, to not stand behind that statement.

Heh, personally I find the school uniform example far more insidious. You WILL dress a certain way to look like everyone else...individuality is to be discouraged. IMO it is far more menacing than instilling a sense of civic duty and patriotism in a child.

Anyway, it is obvious to me we are worlds apart in how we see patriotism. I sense you are more, umm, a globalist in outlook than I am. I suspect perhaps you see adherence to individual nations as a step backwards in the evolution of society into a global society where there are no borders. That's fine if that is something you perceive as a desirable goal. I might agree with you if I thought the outcome of such a global society would be a free and democratic one. But I don't think that would be the result, so I actually dread the prospect of the merger of nationalities into a world body. At least until such time as totalitarianism is a thing of the past. In the meantime, I am dang glad to live where I do and how I do and I hope to maintain that as best I can for myself and future generations.

In this country, it is acceptable, as we've pointed out TIME AND TIME AGAIN, to not stand behind that statement.

Yes you can not stand behind that statement this is perfectly acceptable, however not standing behind it has certain consequences such as:
- being ridiculed
- being convicted to a virtual death
- Being insulted
- And being made a virtual outcast

It may be acceptable to have a different view on this point, but it sure is not accepted, I would like to refer to this thread to make my point: pub142.ezboard.com/fayonaerofrm15.showMessage?topicID=699.topic (http://pub142.ezboard.com/fayonaerofrm15.showMessage?topicID=699.topic)

I find the attetude of some people regarding the pledge really scary and threatening.
They simply cannot comprehense the fact, that what they find a normal display of patriotism, looks really threatening to the outside world.
It are not just the words of the pledge but also the meaning of them to certain people and the way that makes them behave.
What may not look threatening to you might be threatening to the rest of the world.
Even the idea that it might be threatening is supposedly funny, I fail to see the humour.
However it does indicate that to certain people the PoA is sacred and they don't wanne take a serious look at it.
In a sence the PoA has become a religion, i which people believe and saying it is a ritual to enhance that feeling.

I read somewhere in a thread (forgot which one), that Hitler derifed his power from extreme racism.
This is only partly true.
He derived his power mainly because he was able to ellevate his ideas to a state of religion.
He made his ideas into a religion, his propaganda machine was very powerfull and extremely efficient.
He used instruments like parades, pledges and swearing loyalty to the flag.
With these instruments he was able to get complete control off the country and go into war.
I'm sure most germans did not even realize what they where doing nor did they see the "evil" side of it.

Now we in europe see these instruments being used in the USA.
We don't know where this will lead and we don't have any control over it.
I'm not saying or sugesting that the USA is going the same way Germany did.
I don't think a repeat of world war 2 is gonne happen.
And I am convident that the USA will not do the same things Germany did.
But the instruments are in place and the propaganda machine is working and that scares the hell out of me.
All it needs is one idiot in the oval office (does not even have to be the president) and we are at a new world war.

So you agree with the kid in the Strange attitudes thread, right? otherwise you wouldn't be making such a big deal about it, because we just think the kids a shitface and have already moved on. Thats what opinions do, they make some people agree with you, and others alienate you. If you don't like it, sit down and shut up. Yes, that is still freedom of speech, being able to say your piece and then being able to accept the social consequences for it.

"Oh noz Kein! I dont agreezor with him!11! I just think he should be crowned king of america for causing a disruption!1won!"

STFU, nothing wrong has been done to this little punk. He wasn't killed, he was ridiculed for good reason, and he'll kindly learn to share his fucking opinion is some way that won't get is retarded ass in trouble.

Baloghdarogue,

What country are you from? You may have posted it a while ago but shed some light on it again for me please.



Ibudin

"But Kein, what about saying the pledgezor!11! It's making teh American kids take rocket launchers and kill teh ebil Euro's!"

No, it's not. It's giving them some loyalty to the country, which doesn't mean following it blindly. Hell, look at all the stupid ass liberals we have around here. They all said the pledge when they were kids, and they grew up wanting to ruin the country with their hippy bullshit anyways. The pledge has done nothing wrong to our country, if you're that fucking scared of it and have pledgeophbia or whatever, plug your god damn ears cause we're gonna get up every day and pledge until our fucking throats hurt.

- And being made a virtual outcast

Ah, the rhetoric. The hate must feel good.

First of all, let me remind our friends in Europe that the pledge of allegiance in the US has been an ongoing tradition for far longer than I have been alive. It is nothing new. It's not a new threat on the horizon for world peace. To suddenly become worried about it now is, well, pretty paranoid on your part.

What has changed is that Europe in particular is changing how it views itself. It is seeing integration into a larger state (the EU) as desirable and part of that process is weakening the divisions between the various countries involved. That is fine for Europe and probably long overdue. But you are making the same mistake we are often guilty of, i.e. imposing your values and attitudes on other peoples. Even the EU puts severe limits on who and who cannot become a member. That is their sovereign right and rightly so.

The US does not want to become absorbed into a larger political entity that is likely to force unwanted alterations to our way of living and our values. We want to remain true to our founding principles as best we can. If it makes other countries unhappy that we don't do what they want, then so be it.

All this angst and stress is resulting from the realization on both sides of the Atlantic that our interests are not identical. There is no longer a looming outside threat to drive our differences to the back burner and so they get much more attention than in the past. Trust me, Europe has much more to worry about than the US tradition of patriotism.

Seriously tho, why the fear of the fact that Americans, for the most part, have pride in the daily PoA? How can that be intimidating to another country?

If France, Italy, Germany, Russia, England, whatever had a similar process in place, I'd respect it for what it was. Again, it's just another way of recognizing your country.

So you agree with the kid in the Strange attitudes thread, right?

NO I DO NOT.
Did you even bother to read the thread?
My protest was aimed against the reaction off the teachers.
They virtually convicted him to death, not because he disrupted class or anything, no because he said "fuck America".
Let me get this finally into some of you're heads, I AM NOT AGAINST AMERICA.
I am protesting against the fact that the people who are supposed to teach and educate him want to confict him to a virtual death because he said something they don't like.

STFU, nothing wrong has been done to this little punk. He wasn't killed, he was ridiculed for good reason, and he'll kindly learn to share his fucking opinion is some way that won't get is retarded ass in trouble.

You really think so?
Now think further, you think this kid can go back to this school?
I think that he will prob. have to move to a different state, to a different school and hope they never find out what he has done in the past.
I agreed that he should be punished for what he did and especiallty for the way he did it.
But I strongly disagree with the fact that him saying "fuck America" is a reason for convicting him to a virtual death.
Don't forget these are his teachers that did this.

that he will prob. have to move to a different state

Yeah. Sure. Right.

that him saying "fuck America"

Explain why an elementary school child who stands up in class and says the word "fuck" should not be disciplined.

It may be acceptable to have a different view on this point, but it sure is not accepted, I would like to refer to this thread to make my point:


I'd like to take this time to point out to you the difference between having a different opinion and telling someone to fuck them, their opinion, and the horse they rode in on. Eventually if you do the latter enough you're bound to get someone who will beat you down for your attitude about disagreeing, not your disagreement itself.

In the example you gave it wasn't just telling someone that, it was like saying "Hey fuck your friend Joe, he was a motherfucking dickhead" on the second anniversary of Joe getting hit by a car. Do you think if you went up and cursed/belittled someone's friend a couple years after they died during a gathering of that friend's buddies that you wouldn't get some sort of response?

Granted, this wasn't quite like that, and even though emotions were already high because of the second anniversary of sept 11 it wasn't very professional of the one teacher who suggested dropping him in a hostile islamic country. Then again if someone insulted your wife it would still be wrong to hit them, but I'd do it and present my hands for cuffing..

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


That's the pledge balogh. What do you find threatening about it? I want you to point out the part that troubles you.

Serious question:

As L2 pointed out, children under a certain age (the exact age is up for debate and will vary from person to person) don't act like adults.

As such, you don't expect them to be able to comprehend complex social dynamics. Sure, some can, but the mean expectation is far below that.

A large part of what school is about is getting people used to functioning in society later in life. You learn about time, being punctual, how to dress, how to interact with others, etc. while you learn about numbers, spelling, etc.

A part of this early learning deals with what society/culture in the United states is all about. The pledge has some bearing on this. It gives children an idea of what a nation is, what nationalism is, and what their nation stands for in its most ideal form (this is important later).

Later on, when children have had a chance to develop to a higher standard of thought and abstract thought, we begin to learn about how Liberty and Justice for all at one point in time apply to women... or black people... or how the various Native American tribes were slaughtered. Because in order to understand how truly terrible these things are in relation to our IDEALS, you have to first understand what those ideals ARE. You must crawl before you can walk.

From my own personal experience, I was rejecting a Catholic "God" several years before I enlisted in the military. I'd decided that "God" was not worth supporting, but my country was. The ideals of my country are worth dying for. By the same token, the ideals of my country are worth killing for. To extend this further, anyone who tries to subvert the freedoms established in the Constitution, be they a foreign invader *or* duly elected President has to answer to the people of this country *and* to me personaly. (I'm quite sure this will start its own bout of flames).

Still:
I have a serious question for the people from other countries:

What mechanism is there for you to learn to support (and possibly love) your country? There MUST be one- even if it is a strong pressure to vote and support through voting the political candidate who shares your views.

Explain why an elementary school child who stands up in class and says the word "fuck" should not be disciplined.

Don't think you read the thread or you would not ask this question. I said that i agreed with the punishment of the ticket etc. If you don't bother to read my posts don't bother asking questions.

What do you mean when you keep saying he was convicted to virtual death? It sounds like you mean he has an EQ character who was executed, which in turn makes you sound completely rediculous to me. By the way, he will still probably go to the same school, and if he treated differently, he probably deserves it. If I go to any country and shout "Fuck xxx! You all suck teh balls and deserve all death and suffering that has been wrought in your god awful nation!" then I think I'll get a bit of special attention too. Which brings me back to, what does that have to do with the pledge fo allegiance, and how can you possibly be saying that the kid got worse than he gave?

I pledge that I will stand by my country.
We are all united in this together.
We will not be divided, we are indivisible.
Liberty and Justice for Every citizen who takes this pledge and becomes a citizen.



I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


Two versions of the pledge???

My biggest problem and what I find most threatening is that it apears to exclude everyone who does not take the pledge from liberty and justice.
This is mainly based on the first "version" of the pledge the second "version" is completely new to me.
The second version is alot more general and not very threatening in itself.

The thread lies in the fact that it implies that if you don't take the pledge you don't have the right of liberty an justice.
I know that this is not expressed directly and that it is open to interpretation, however that is one of the dangers.
You can read it as liberty and justice for everyone including the people who are not us citizens or as liberty and justice only for people who are a citizen of the USA.

What I noticed on this board is that there are alot of people who go for the "only" interpretation and by that excluding the rest of the world.
If you're argument is gonne be that they are wrong in there interpretation, (if I play devil's advocate a sec) my response would be: Why are they wrong?
Clearly this pledge is open to interpretation and there are alot of different views about it.
This is very dangerous for a pledge, especially one which is socialy speaking mandetory for little children. (I mean with socially that there is alot of peer pressure involved).
Pledges and other rituals should not be open to interpretation IMO.
(can you imagine what it would mean to courtrooms if the pledge of telling the truth would be open to interpretation? That would be an undermining of the whole justice system, no tanx)
Basicly the danger lies in the interpretation.


What mechanism is there for you to learn to support (and possibly love) your country? There MUST be one- even if it is a strong pressure to vote and support through voting the political candidate who shares your views.


Speaking for my own country the Netherlands, there are absolutly no such mechanisms.
Not even pressure to vote.
Only mechanism is you're parents.
Maybe thats why this is all so alien to me.
Don't get me wrong I love my country and I would not change it for any other country, but this is by no means thaught or even encouraged.
It is my personal opinion and a very bias one.
We are however strongly thaught that we live in a big world and strongly encouraged to look beyond our borders.
We learn 3 foreign languages mandetory, including some of the cultural differences between country's.
We learn that we live in a big world with alot of differences in culture and views.
We learn to respect these differences.

Maybe we need this to survive as a small country.
But still I don't see any harm in teaching tolerance and understanding.
We are a very tolerant nation that believe strongly in individuality and freedom of choice.
We leave alot of choices to the individual and our government try's to stay out of personal decisions as much as possible.
Someone even sugesting something even remotely like the PoA is completely unthinkable here.
We value our individuality so much that it's even more important then learning our national anthem (only 10% of our nation is able to recite the first verse).
This will undoubtebly shock you and make you wonder how this nation can become one of the 10 biggest economic powers in the world. Well basicly because we go out and adapt ourself to the local customs and respect them.
I know this would sound alien to a US citizen, but it works for us.

The second ""version"" is the one the kids are saying. And they don't even know why they do it. They're just words that they get up and say, because they know the words. Half of em don't say it anyways, but make up their own lyrics.

This is very dangerous for a pledge, especially one which is socialy speaking mandetory for little children. (I mean with socially that there is alot of peer pressure involved).


Not even close. Little Timmy doesn't look around the room, seeing whose saying their pledges and whose not. This isn't a source of great attention for the kids, its just routine. When I was doing this, I would be pledging allegiance to the Queen of Lizardry half the time.


If you didn't even know the words to the pledge you've been saying is so dangerous, all your arguments are discredited.

the second "version" is completely new to me


Quite humorous, given that the second version is the Pledge of Allegiance you and the other Euros(isn't it interesting that no one outside of Europe really has these issues?) have been taking offense to.

As for your concerns, the pledge is paying respect to the our country and the principles it was founded upon, a country undivided and free.

How is that threatening? Where are you getting that it implies no one but US citizens can be free? Or that you aren't free unless you say the pledge?


Pledges and other rituals should not be open to interpretation IMO.


It isn't. That's part of my lack of comprehension for your issues with it.


We are however strongly thaught that we live in a big world and strongly encouraged to look beyond our borders.
We learn 3 foreign languages mandetory, including some of the cultural differences between country's.


In other words you are brainwashed from a young age towards globalization moreso than we are brainwashed towards patriotism, by your own logic.


This will undoubtebly shock you and make you wonder how this nation can become one of the 10 biggest economic powers in the world.


Not anymore, you are well on your way to being a smaller part of a top 10 economic power..Comrade.

Speaking for my own country the Netherlands, there are absolutly no such mechanisms.
Not even pressure to vote.
Only mechanism is you're parents.

So there is a mechanism, it is just familial. Also, by being encouraged to look beyond your borders and study the differences, one might say that you are also studying the countries that have similarities to your own- and odds are very good that is viewed as a good thing for them, thereby bolstering your opinion of your own country.

Did that sound enough like babble? I was shooting for babble.

My biggest problem and what I find most threatening is that it apears to exclude everyone who does not take the pledge from liberty and justice.

You rarely see someone old enough to create long posts on a message board interpret things so literally. Again, you appear to go well out of your way to find issues here.

I'm going to repeat myself. Tell us the specific words or phrases in the PoA that say others do NOT get liberty and justice.

Your pedantic repetition of silly arguments that have been disproven countless times remind me of another person from your country.

Hmmmm, I have never seen or heard the first version of the pledge Baloghdarogue posted....it looks more like a really bad translation or paraphrasing than the Pledge of Allegiance. I'm curious where you saw that one or where it is said to have been used.

All your base are belong to us!

'What mechanism is there for you to learn to support (and possibly love) your country? There MUST be one- even if it is a strong pressure to vote and support through voting the political candidate who shares your views. '

- What with you being from America, this might be somewhat hard for you to comprehend, but here is the answer: none.

OMGOSH!!111

Why must there be one? Just because you guys are brainwas..err.. taught nicely and without pressure, to pledge allegience all the time?

You've never in your life heard the phrase "God save the Queen" Halo?

What do you think the royal family's purpose really is in your country?

The royal family is a fucking joke.


Ibudin

'You've never in your life heard the phrase "God save the Queen" Halo?

What do you think the royal family's purpose really is in your country? '

- What Ibudin said. It's a 'fucking' joke. The Royal family serve no purpose, except to give us some rather boring and out-dated newspaper filler in the form of Prince Harry doing pot.
I've heard god save the queen, yep. But never said it myself, nor know of anyone else who says it - bar a few olympic champions.
Just because phrases exist, my impartial friend, doesn't mean it's rammed up my english channel every day like the pledge is yours.

*snicker* Cute turn of phrase Halo.

Patriotism is more an individual preference than a blanket condition and waxes and wanes with current events.

I know a couple ex patriot Brits who are considerably more flagrant in their show of pride for the UK than Halo is. Likewise I know a lot of Americans who are less flagrant in their show of pride in America than I am. So what?

I guess we in America really don't appreciate how someone's pride in their country can be deemed threatening to someone in another country. We don't feel that way, so we don't really understand how anyone else can feel that way. For example, when the Berlin wall came down and the Berliners started waving around the German flag amidst the partying, I did not feel in the slightest threatened by their show of nationalistic pride. Quite the contrary, I was very happy for them and wished I could be there to help them celebrate the reunion of their country.

When the UK and Argentina came to blows, I don't remember feeling any fear at all the flag waving going on at the docks as the fleet left Britain to sail to the South Atlantic.

While from an intellectual standpoint I can understand Ralf's apprehension at American displays and rituals of patriotism, from an emotional standpoint I just can't relate.

Every country I know of has national holidays. Every country I know of has a flag to represent themselves. Every country I know of looks after it's own interests over that of other nations.

As far as a particular childhood ritual in the US causing concern in the circles of some countries from a "moral" standpoint, I say look to your own customs (i. e. use of school uniforms) first before pointing the finger at us.

Halo,

I haven't said the pledge pretty close to 20 years. You have to believe me that its really not that big of a deal here in the US as you make it be. It's been stated..ya kids in school have to stand up and say it..so did I..guess what though. I was faking it as many do, with no passion at that time for it. All I wanted to do was poke a friend or hit on the girls in class. The passion for my country came later in life when I realized how well I do have it here in the US and wouldn't want to live any where else. There is a difference between a passion for your country and a passion for your government. Hell my dad is still convinced some libral bastards gonna come over to his house and take his guns.

I am not brainwashed as you say. Thought I would tell you as well in my class I am taking at the moment we have several students on exchange from England. I enjoy talking to them. So far they seem to like what they see..but then again I don't think they have been any further than the city the college is in.


Ibudin

Hmmmm, I have never seen or heard the first version of the pledge Baloghdarogue posted....it looks more like a really bad translation or paraphrasing than the Pledge of Allegiance. I'm curious where you saw that one or where it is said to have been used.

Page one of this topic.

If you didn't even know the words to the pledge you've been saying is so dangerous, all your arguments are discredited.

Funny enough I have to agree with this.
I was told the first version was the PoA and that one differs alot from the second.
Second is far more general and not really threatening.
My problems where with the first one and what they implied.
I have to say that I can't find anything really wrong with the second one.
That having said I still perseive it as "excluding the outside world".
I get the feeling that you don't belong in the USA if you don't say this.
When ever i read this I get flashbacks of thousends of Germans shouting "Sieg heil" and while doing the nazi greating.
Maybe that's part of my doctrine and the result of alot of people telling me don't let this ever happen again.
Seeing one of our closest ally's doing virtually the same only with different words scares me.
I' am not saying this is the same thing, it's just the same type of ritual, done with the same energy.
These ritual's are threatening to the outside world. Not by definition because of the words used but more because of the display.

That having said I do believe indeed that most of my arguments are based on the wrong PoA and are therefor invalid. This also means that I have to seriously revise my stand on the issue and actually take most of my arguments back.
But still having said that, the instrument scares the hell out of me.

In other words you are brainwashed from a young age towards globalization moreso than we are brainwashed towards patriotism, by your own logic.

Yes you are 100% right with that, I was brainwashed.
Brainwashed to look beyond the borders of my own country,
to think by myself, to make my own decisions and to respect other cultures and traditions even if I don't egree with them.
I was brainwashed in thinking that I am not superior to anyone else, that other people also have rights and to respect them and their rights.
That we all live in the same world, that we all have a place in that world and that we should help others.
I was brainwashed into tolerance and respect.
Clearly very evil.

That having said I still perseive it as "excluding the outside world".
I get the feeling that you don't belong in the USA if you don't say this.
When ever i read this I get flashbacks of thousends of Germans shouting "Sieg heil" and while doing the nazi greating.

The more you write, the sillier you look.

For the 713th time, post the exact words implying that other countries are excluded.

"Brainwashed to look beyond the borders of my own country"

me too

"to think by myself, to make my own decisions and to respect other cultures and traditions even if I don't egree with them."

Yep,that's me as well.

"I was brainwashed in thinking that I am not superior to anyone else, that other people also have rights and to respect them and their rights."

You, bet that's me as well.


"That we all live in the same world, that we all have a place in that world and that we should help others."

I believe that as well.


"I was brainwashed into tolerance and respect"

Me too...oh and I said the pledge every day as an elemenatry school child.


Damn...what went wrong?

"Clearly very evil."

Sorry to hear that you think of yourself this way :')


What you don't seem to understand is that the US is, by far, the most heterogeneous society on earth. We have more cultures, races, lifestyles, and Nationalities in greater numbers than any other country on earth by a huge margin.

The patriotism you feel to be over the top(in the form of the pledge), not only binds people together as a country..but in itself is a proclaimation that diversity of culture, race, and national heritage should be valued: "indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

Then part of that tolerance and respect for other cultures theoretically should include respect for our culture as well. The so called "display" you are concerned about happens for about two minutes, weekday mornings inside classrooms that the outside world is not even exposed to unless someone is intentionally looking for things to nitpick about the US. Were you even aware that this ritual had been part of American life for many decades before someone with an axe to grind decided it needed to be sensationalized?

As far as the US excluding the rest of the world, think about where the US came from and who comprises it. It is an impossibility.

*edited to correct grammatical error*

'we have several students on exchange from England. I enjoy talking to them'

- Uhm.
Yey?

"Page one of this topic."

Read the post Balog, Dart said:

"Let's break down what the US pledge is saying, in my words."

He was paraphrasing the pledge and putting it in his words, with his interpretation.

"I was told the first version was the PoA and that one differs alot from the second."

You were never told this.

"I have to say that I can't find anything really wrong with the second one."

Kewl...next thread :')

- Uhm.
Yey?

Thanks for tremendous contribution there Halo.....not. :')

What with you being from America, this might be somewhat hard for you to comprehend, but here is the answer: none.




What Ibudin said. It's a 'fucking' joke. The Royal family serve no purpose, except to give us some rather boring and out-dated newspaper filler in the form of Prince Harry doing pot.


They may be a joke to you but they are a large part of the mechanism for patriotism in your country...and I can garauntee that you see them more often than I say the PoA.

'and I can garauntee that you see them more often than I say the PoA. '

- I can guarantee you very different.

'Thanks for tremendous contribution there Halo.....not. :') '

- No, no. Thank you.

Really?

When was the last time you saw the royal family in a newspaper, magazine, on tv, or in person?

The last time I said the pledge of allegiance was something like 20 years ago(you're about that age aren't you? So you've never seen the royal family?).

You haven't seen the Royal Family in 21 years?

'cause that's the last time I said the PoA prior to this thread popping up. 7th grade. I was 12 years old. I'm 33 now.

As near as I can tell, I said the Pledge of Allegiance approximately 1080 times (probably less when I take sick days, holidays, etc. off the total). The last time I said it was the last day of school in 6th grade over thirty years ago.

I can guarantee I have seen more stories, video shots, etc. of the British Royal family than that and I'm American.

Not that I equate seeing a picture of Prince Harry glaring at a photographer with a political pledge. But let a foreigner bad mouth the royal family in a crowded pub in London and see how long it takes to get his lights punched out.

Why must there be one? Just because you guys are brainwas..err.. taught nicely and without pressure, to pledge allegience all the time

Because it is in a country's best interests to have one, and any country that does NOT have one is (pick two or more):
1) Rare
2) Stupid
3) Not interested in remaining an independant country for long

What... you were not taught about the British Empire and how the sun (used to) never set upon it?

Others have nailed down the Royal Family part.

Hmm.... How is that whole conversion to the Euro thing going? No patriotism there (yes, I realize there are strong economic reasons as well)

Now I'll admit YOU might not be patriotic... but to deny any mechanisms for patriotism to be fostered in your country at all is willfull ignorance to bolster your point on a message board.

FYI : The royal family are becoming increasingly obsolete in english politics nowadays.There are talks about limiting the powers they have.It is completly justified imo,why should they have any power ?
It isn`t earned in any way,they are born into it...Royals can go fuck themselves for all i care,which incidentally they already do.Bunch of inbred fucks

The royal family are becoming increasingly obsolete in english politics nowadays

news of the Magna Carta just coming your way?

'FYI : The royal family are becoming increasingly obsolete in english politics nowadays'

- Becoming?
What LL said.
The Royal Family exists purely and utterly because of tradition. They are there for show. They do charity work. They bring in the foreigners.
Nothing more. Nothing else.
The difference for those who asked, is yes, I've prolly seen the Royal family in the paper a bit (you wanna know in what context? Prince Harry doing pot).
The thing is - we don't stand there and kiss the paper and say 'God Save The Queen' a million times.
To contrast British and American patriotic mechanicasms is beyond ludicrous.
They aren't even on the same scale - shit, there's not even a scale here.

The difference is, my slow companions, is that we NEVER STOOD UP EVERY DAY OF OUR SCHOOL CHILDHOOD TO SALUTE, REMIND, REINFORCE, ADHERE TO OUR COUNTRY.
What we absorb in our childhood will undeniably affect us. For better or for worse? *That was the point of this entire thread*

'Is too much patriotism, such as saluting the flag, a bad thing? Is it intended as such? Is there no harm in it? Do you disagree that it would have no effect, sub-conscious or not, upon a child/person? '

What we are subject to and exposed to in this world builds us.
It is not hard for people as slow as yourself even to see the contrast on this very board.
We, the Euro-Scum, did not salute the flag and say the pledge every day throughout our young lives. You can see, clearly, compared to you, the American-Awsome-People, who did salute the flag and say the pledge throughout your youth, that you have a LOT OF PRIDE (ignorant, or genuine, whichever - pride) and a lot of patroitic feelings about your country ie 'America is the land of the free, the best place. We rock at everything, we are the strongest, we kick ass, etc.'

Whereas, we do not.

The pledge doesn't affect you?
Get real.

/yawn

Halo the little red coat that couldn't..we heard your opionion 1000's over.

Do we Americans give a fuck? NOPE. The only slow person on this forum is you to realize we don't care nor share you opionions on this subject. Your even a waste to your own country men.


Ibudin

Well, according to Balogh, he is as proud of the Netherlands as we are of America.

The difference is that it is not fashionable in Europe right now to be patriotic, or at least to show patriotism. Europe is in the minority in that regard IMO. Take a look at China or Russia or India or Japan. Heck, you should see all the Mexican flags that get brought out for Cinco de Mayo. Plenty of patriotism there as well I can assure you. Only in parts of Europe is it deemed embarrassing or even dangerous to be seen as patriotic as near as I can tell.

You point to our difference in attitude from you as evidence the pledge has an effect. Perhaps. If so, then in the words of SOE it is "working as intended" and we are quite happy in that fact. But just possibly, it is you who are different from the majority of the world in how you view your own countries and patriotism in general.

The pledge doesn't affect you?

Yesterday, I took a minute to reflect on why I think this country is great. And I thought to myself "I should list the reasons on a piece of paper." I could only think of one reason:

1. I was forced to repeat the pledge of allegiance when I was young.

Man, this is a real eye opener for me. I mean, who knew? I'd better go sell my t-bills.

I'm not getting anything to work with here. So:

/yawn Ibudin
Nop Gulor
Lol? Mirrdor.

Done.

"Heck, you should see all the Mexican flags that get brought out for Cinco de Mayo."

FYI, only Mexican-Americans celebrate Cinco de Mayo - this is the anniversary of when Mexico *lost* to the French :) . It's kind of the 'Well, we tried' anniversary. On the other hand, Mexican Independence Day, or 'El Grito' (Sept 16th), is celebrated for about a *month* down here (there is a huge ExpoMex, or fair, here in Nuevo Laredo to celebrate, and yes, they take their patriotism pretty seriously down here ;) ...)

Btw, 'El Grito' translates to 'The Yell', as in the criers going across the countryside rallying the populace, and declaring independence from Spain...

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

OMG future Nazi's of Mexico...run for the border.


Ibudin

The pledge doesn't affect you?Danger! Halo's endless "All patriotism is evil, and children exposed to it become war-mongers like the rest of America" rhetoric incoming!

It's supposed to affect us. It's a tradition (albeit a recent one). We're PROUD OF OUR COUNTRY and no matter how many times you imply that pride and patriotism are bad things -- things to be protected from school-children -- they're things we value in our culture.

What do you expect from Halo? I mean, England/Great Britain was arguably the most powerful catalyst of Western history from the time Drake and Howard crushed Medina-Sidonia to the second World War. If someone born in such a nation cannot be proud of its traditions, explaining patriotism to him is like talking to a brick wall.

Not even that recent Pali...the Pledge was written in 1892 and had become commonplace in schools by 1924. That's a long assed time by some standards.

Nydia is right about Cinco De Mayo...its more common amongst Mexican Americans than in Mexico. I have been in Mexico during Sept.16 before and that is what stuck in my mind, or at least as much as I could remember through the booze induced haze.

The difference is, my slow companions, is that we NEVER STOOD UP EVERY DAY OF OUR SCHOOL CHILDHOOD TO SALUTE, REMIND, REINFORCE, ADHERE TO OUR COUNTRY.

Good for you. That doesn't mean that there are not mechanisms for building patriotism in your country.

Like having the BBC refer to the United States as the "former colonies" every so often.

Then part of that tolerance and respect for other cultures theoretically should include respect for our culture as well. The so called "display" you are concerned about happens for about two minutes, weekday mornings inside classrooms that the outside world is not even exposed to unless someone is intentionally looking for things to nitpick about the US. Were you even aware that this ritual had been part of American life for many decades before someone with an axe to grind decided it needed to be sensationalized?


I somehow get the feeling that you mean by disrespecting: disagreeing or feeling threatened by something.
I get the feeling that if someone say's they disagree with something the USA does or with a ritual or display of nationality, you persieve it to be an attack on the USA.
It is as if you identivy yourself with these rituals as much as with you're country.
It seems as if you persieve these rituals as you're country.
I get the feeling any attack or disagreement with any of rituals is persieved to be a personal attack on you're country and in that respect disrespecting it.
Even stating that you feel threatened by it is persieved to be a personal attack on the USA.

This is something I don't understand and have great difficulty understanding.
I don't understand how expressing a feeling or a concern can, be an attack on or disrespecting of.
How can be disagreeing with something be an attack on?

I give my opinion or I tell you how i feel or perseive something.
This is my opinion or my perception.
Simply because i don't agree with something does not mean that I disrespect something.
In my opinion you are making a link between disagreeing/perception and disrespecting which is simply not there.

The difference is that it is not fashionable in Europe right now to be patriotic, or at least to show patriotism.

This is so wrong, the contrary is true,
It is very fashionable right now to be patriotic and show it.

Only in parts of Europe is it deemed embarrassing or even dangerous to be seen as patriotic as near as I can tell.

This is true, especially in the country's that where occupied by the germans in WW2. This includes Germany.

You point to our difference in attitude from you as evidence the pledge has an effect. Perhaps. If so, then in the words of SOE it is "working as intended" and we are quite happy in that fact. But just possibly, it is you who are different from the majority of the world in how you view your own countries and patriotism in general.

This is most likely true.
Every country has it's own history and experiences.
It is very likely that our experiences in WW2 and seeing where patriotism can lead to, has influenced our opinion on this point.
It indeed worked perfectly as intended in Germany during WW2.
Maybe we are just paranoid in Europe in believing that it could be exploided by some idiot.
Maybe our fear is that it is indeed working as intended and that some idiot gets in power and exploid's it.
This will offcourse never happen.

Like having the BBC refer to the United States as the "former colonies" every so often.

So do the frensch, the dutch, the portugees and the spanisch broadcasting stations, these have all colonised the USA or at least part of the USA.
I don't see how this is building patriotism.
It is just an historic fact.

Jesus..

I thought Americans were a scared bunch..

Europeans seem to fear EVERYTHING.
Afraid of America, afraid of Arabs, afraid of guns, afraid of religion, afraid of government, afraid of not having the government do everything for them, Afraid of Nuclear Power, afraid of running out of Oil, Afraid of censorship, afraid of Ideas. Afraid of getting Involved in Iraq, Afraid of NOT getting involved.

Damn people... how about growing a set.. eh?

You're a dick, LL.

Apparently, they're afraid of Lleauaric too.

I thought Americans were a scared bunch..

I think you're right there.
And America deals with that fear the only way they know how to respond in adversetie and thats violance.
Why talk when you can bomb?
Why just ask for something?
It is much more compelling if you put a gun to someones head first and then ask the question.
Really it is there free choice they can say NO America wont shoot.

If America does not get what they want they act agressively, maybe by making a new law or maybe by putting some extra patroleboats around there shore or by imposing some "economic" ban.
Bottum line is if America does not get what it wants it starts putting pressure on the opposing faction be it millitairy or economic.
Really why would anyone be afraid of a country like that?
There is really no need to be afraid if you agree and yes you can disagree, they won't shoot.
I just would feel alot better if the gun was not pointed at my forehead when the question is asked, but then again there really is no reason to be scared, the gun is just there to protect me.

Forget it Balogh.
Unless you're bombing the hell out of random countries, aparantly you're not 'cool, dude!'

Unless you're bombing the hell out of random countries, aparantly you're not 'cool, dude!'

That's just it Halo, they're not random they had the nerve to say NO, or oppose America in some way.

I think you're right there.
Of course I am.. you should have stopped here

And America deals with that fear the only way they know how to respond in adversetie and thats violance.
And Europe deals with things the only way they seem to know.. totally fuck it up, then ignore it and wait for the US to fix it.[/quote]
Why talk when you can bomb?
Why just ask for something?
It is much more compelling if you put a gun to someones head first and then ask the question.
Any specific examples of this pray tell?
Maybe we should have asked really nicely and sent the Taliban a fruit basket to please not to let Al Queda blow up any more buildings..
Or maybe if we ask REALLY nicely.. North Korea wont make any nukes.. oh wait.. we've been giving them food for years to prevent them from starving.. but it seems they take kindness for weakness.
Or maybe if we asked Libya to not harbor any more terrorists who blow up airplanes..
Hmm where else..
I wonder why nobody "asked" the Serbs to stop commiting Genocide
Maybe if we sent Chocolates and a card to Saddam he would have stopped plotting to kill our presidents, gassing his own people, pursuing programs to make weapons of mass destruction, invading his neighbors, torturing and Raping anyone he feels like and generally commiting Crimes against Humanity..

Really it is there free choice they can say NO America wont shoot.
Free Choice ends when you threaten our security.

If America does not get what they want they act agressively, maybe by making a new law or maybe by putting some extra patroleboats around there shore or by imposing some "economic" ban.
examples please

Bottum line is if America does not get what it wants it starts putting pressure on the opposing faction be it millitairy or economic.
examples please


I just would feel alot better if the gun was not pointed at my forehead when the question is asked, but then again there really is no reason to be scared, the gun is just there to protect me.
A gun going off against your forehead would prolly not harm you in the least.. you shouldnt be scared.

I think most of you need to get together and have angry sex. 11 pages .. wow.

Why is it okay for schools and businesses to have mission statements, but not countries?

Because what's the pledge besides a glorified mission statement?

Angry sex? Isn't that rape? :\

--Cen

L2 you want examples?
sjees either you have not been reading the board or the seen the news lately or forgotten alot of things.
But let me remind you off a few just of the top of my head.
nr 1: war on iraq.
thats an easy one, offcourse also easy to dismiss because of a difference of opinion on the necessity.
Let me remind you that we are still waiting to see any proof of wheapons of mass distruction and that was the primary reason to start it.
But then again "not entirely impossible" means that there is a change and thats enough to start a war, right?

nr 2: being opposed to the international court of justice and as a reaction thereof accepting a law which makes it possible for the president to invade the country where it is in (the Netherlands, one of America's strongest ally's) in order to free any American held there.
Interesting side-note is that both the USA and the Netherlands are in NATO and the USA is the only country not signing the treaty, actually its the only country in the so called civilized world that did not sign.
The law is actually a bit broader it entitles the president to act forcefully against any-body he does not recognize.
Which is basicly anything he wants. (if you don't like it just don't recognise it).

nr 3: threatening to stop humanitarian help to Liberia if they did not support the USA standpoint on the international court of law.
Threatening to stop giving food to the hungry and with that threatening to confict them to starvation is a very strong argument.
Then again they do have a "free" choice, agree or die.

We live in a big world with alot of different people with alot of different ideas.
I personally like this, it gives diversity to the world and that's a good thing.
People have different ideas or ideals, that is there right and should be respected.
Not everyone is against you if they disagree with you, not everyone that disagrees with you is a thread.
It may come as a shock to you, but people outside the USA can live a good and happy live.
I know this is a great shock to you and something you will probebly not understand, but it's true.
People outside the USA can be very happy.

There's too much Ytrok phrasing in these posts.

He's like a Ytrok/Hartmut hybrid. Makes me scared yet oddly turned on all at the same time.

Let me remind you that we are still waiting to see any proof of wheapons of mass distruction and that was the primary reason to start it.
Wrong..
The reason was that IRaq failed to comply with inspectors in accords to the Treaty they made with us. That simple..
They blocked, obscured, faked, delayed.. for what? And it was simply enough..
Make an Agreement with us and you are expected to live by it.
Had they never invaded Kuwait, they never would have been held to these standards.. They failed to live up to them.


nr 2: being opposed to the international court of justice and as a reaction thereof accepting a law which makes it possible for the president to invade the country where it is in (the Netherlands, one of America's strongest ally's) in order to free any American held there.
Your goddamn right.. That law would have trumped US legal authority, basically it required the US to surrender rights of its citizens to other powers.. no sorry.. fuck you very much...

The law is actually a bit broader it entitles the president to act forcefully against any-body he does not recognize.
Which is basicly anything he wants. (if you don't like it just don't recognise it).
Right.. if your a nation.. you BETTER have a damn good reason to arrest an American..
Btw.. where does the gun to the head fit ANYWHERE in this example? Just seems like we voted no.. Is voting No now a hostile act?

nr 3: threatening to stop humanitarian help to Liberia if they did not support the USA standpoint on the international court of law.
Proof please.



It may come as a shock to you, but people outside the USA can live a good and happy live.
I know this is a great shock to you and something you will probebly not understand, but it's true.
People outside the USA can be very happy.
Well no shit..
THe thing is.. until about 50 years ago we were VERY happy to not know a fucking thing about the rest of the world.. We had a nice policy of you stay the fuck out of here and we will stay the fuck out of there.
THen you assholes made such a fucking mess out of the world that we had no choice.
So now that youve had your hand held for 5 decades your okay?
Cool.. Just next time you dumbfucks screw the world up .. try to be nice after we fix everything you break and ruin... again.

I think therefore I am.

Balogh-

When you say the US puts economic or military pressure on other countries when it does not get it's way, I wonder why you think the US would be different from any other country in that regard. Is the US not allowed for some reason to pursue it's self interest? There are any number of countries who use their influence to advantage in world affairs, including every single member of the WTO. That includes the EU (and the Netherlands by extension) when it comes to making rules for international trade. Hell, the UN is nothing but a massive exercise in the application of political and economic pressure by each and every member state to get what they want.

Did not NATO enforce the will of it's member countries upon the former Yugoslavia? What about the EU (and the US) imposing sanctions upon Zimbabwe? France has been blocking a diplomatic agreement with Libya until they get what they want out of it. China exerts both economic, political and military pressure to make sure Taiwan does not openly declare itself to be what it really is, an independent nation. Spain is leaning on tiny Morocco over ownership of a couple of tiny islands a hundred yards off Morocco's coast. Central Africa is a basket case from all the countries there jockeying for position with each other. So why would the US not be expected to use it's influence and power when it thinks there is a need?

The US does not bomb random countries. It uses force when there is no reasonable expectation that diplomacy or economic pressure will achieve a desirable result.

The Taliban were intimately allied with and aiding Al Qaida, an organization that inflicted more deaths on the civilian population of the US than most nations we have been at war with in the last century. The Taliban refused to curb Bin Laden's activities and facilitated his efforts to attack us, ergo they became our enemy.

Saddam invaded an ally of ours and threatened the world's major source of oil upon which our economy and the economy of most of our allies depend. Our experience with Hitler and Stalin colored our response and we determined it was necessary to contain him or remove him from power. We did not get it done the first time, mainly because of political pressure from the arab world not to overthrow him. He was still a threat and now an avowed enemy of the US. When it appeared he was continuing his efforts to make himself unassailable by the development of WMD in preparation for future attacks on Kuwait, we took him down. War is expensive and uncertain. The US does not engage in it for kicks.

Apparently, they're afraid of Lleauaric too.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

OMFG

L2, you really believe the USA is gods gift to the world.
You really believe that the USA can do nothing wrong and everyone should be thankfull to you.
I have seldon seen a post that so clearly underline the thread of patriotism.
You really believe you are right and don't see whats wrong with all you just said.
It is really horrefic.
You think you are a member of the new "uber" race, the American's, you think you are a superior being and that the rest of the world should bow to you.
You have just clearly illustrated the dangers of patriotism, I could not have done it better myself.
The blind believe that you're better then anyone else based on the love of you're country.
This is exactly what I've been warning against.
This is exactly the way the german nazi's thought and reasoned.
This is the new threat the world is facing and it does not come from the middle east it comes from the USA.

Good job lleauaric, you ass, now they are on to us.

I dont understand Baltherogue..

Are you saying Europeans DIDNT fuck the world up 50 years ago?
Im sorry you cant accept responsibilty, but to lash out at us.. really.. how childish.

The point is.. we would be more than happy to leave you alone, you buy our shit, we buy some of yours.. If you all would stop fucking the world up.. sound good? cool.. now lets see if we can do that.. shall we?

NExt how about trying to refute facts and statements with some of your own.. unless all you are is what you see to be.. misinformed, misguided and mistaken.

Gulor,

I think you wrote a fine piece that I mostly agree with (except for the war on Iraq piece because I personally did still see a solution other then war, but I can also understand America did not and I never believed the so called "intelligence reports". I just am a bit more patient, not much just a little).

Reading my earlier comments I must admit that I was not clear on what I meant.
Economic sanctions are no by deffinition a bad way to get what you want.
My problem lies with its implementation by one single country against the will of the majority of the country's in the world.
I believe that these sanctions should be imposed by the UN or the security counsel and not by one country alone.
I know this is called globalizing and that most American's seem to be against that.
But I really think that the only way we can solve the bigger problems in the world is by acting all together as one.
I think in that respect the USA is undermining the authority of the UN.
I do agree that the UN is far from perfect (understatement) and that it needs a huge reorganisation.
I don't think that this is a reason to go against it.
It needs fixing and it needs it bad.

What the USA is doing at the moment is placing itself above the international law.
This is a dangerous development.
It does not create stabilety and peace, no it does quite the opposit.
Other country's and there citisens are going to turn against the USA.
You can justify that by saying there is a difference in interest.
But by saying that you're saying that you're interests are more inportant then theirs.
You're interest offcourse all depend on which side you stand.
I believe the USA is now trying to protect their interests at all cause and with that completely disregarding the interests of other country's.
These country's are offcourse going to rebel against that.
You can't make other country's agree with you, you can only make them say it, but in the end they will turn against you.

I believe the answer for solving most problems in the world is understanding each others needs and acting as one.

The saying "united we stand, devided we fall" also applies to world politics

Yep, I have to agree that Balogh went a little over the top on that last one. I certainly don't consider myself a closet nazi and I agree with some of LLs points.

Anyway, I think there needs to be an agreement of what is acceptable when saying "no" to us Americans. When you say "no" by hijacking commercial airliners and flying them into one of our skyscrapers, then yeah we are gonna get a little pissy about it. When you say "no" by sending armored divisions into a neighbor's country to seize the oil on which much of the western economy depends, we might get a little annoyed at that too. But much of the world gets away with saying "no" to us free from consequences all the time. It's when we say "no" back (i.e. the world court and the Kyoto accords) that some people get up in arms and claim we are the new threat to the world. I kinda take that as a personal insult. As such, I think I am done with this thread.

What the USA is doing at the moment is placing itself above the international law.
This is a dangerous development.

I'd just like to point out that the world that we live in is inherently an Anarchic system; international law applies as long as it benefits a specific country's interests.

What about Iraq placing itself above international law by fucking ignoring PASSED RESOLUTIONS, hmm?

--Cen

I believe the USA is now trying to protect their interests at all cause and with that completely disregarding the interests of other country's.

Um, hello? where have you been the last million years? Thats what countries do. Time to come out from under that rock.

We're not a difficult country to please. All you need to do is sit down and stop causing a fucking ruckus, and we're all a-ok.

Defying international law? Like, say, Iraq did? That would make them the new threat right? Oh, not anymore, we took care of that threat. Your logic has screwed you.

So do the frensch, the dutch, the portugees and the spanisch broadcasting stations, these have all colonised the USA or at least part of the USA.
I don't see how this is building patriotism.
It is just an historic fact.

To refer to the US (which, last I checked, is a sovereign nation) as "former colonies" in a news broadcast not related to events hundreds of years ago is a very wry dig at this country.

It is also a patriotic device in the fact that it forces one to remember that the area held by the US used to be under the control of "whatever country here". This is used BY the countries that used to have that control- not by the US.

To use your example, just using Historical Fact, we could (for instance) refer to England as "the former boot lackeys of the Roman Empire". We could refer to the Netherlands as "the primary force of misery in Indonesia". What good does it do, other than to put down the countries mentioned?

.

The Netherlands are also the primary force of misery in the small country of Ayonae.ro

The Netherlands are also the primary force of misery in the small country of Ayonae.ro

:rollin

EDIT: Sig rules state 50kb max, please change your sig, thank you -- Hubbe

Hey, anyone ever gonna post the exact words in the pledge of allegiance that offend the people of the Netherlands?

We could refer to the Netherlands as "the primary force of misery in Indonesia". What good does it do, other than to put down the countries mentioned?Well, I get a good chuckle out of it.

What about Iraq placing itself above international law by fucking ignoring PASSED RESOLUTIONS, hmm?

How about Israel then? or North Korea?
I agree if you ignore the resolutions you should be dealt with.
What I don't agree with is that this is done "selectively".
The rules are there to be obided by everyone and enforced accordingly not selectively.

We're not a difficult country to please. All you need to do is sit down and stop causing a fucking ruckus, and we're all a-ok.

Yup just sit back and do what the US tell you and there is no problem. But don't disagree cause then you're screwed.

Defying international law? Like, say, Iraq did? That would make them the new threat right? Oh, not anymore, we took care of that threat. Your logic has screwed you.

Really by "preaching" justice for all.

To use your example, just using Historical Fact, we could (for instance) refer to England as "the former boot lackeys of the Roman Empire". We could refer to the Netherlands as "the primary force of misery in Indonesia". What good does it do, other than to put down the countries mentioned?

YOu're using derogatory language in you're example, by that making the comment an insult which I don't think is the case if you say for instance : The dutch founded New-York.
This is a fact and in no way derogatory.
If you are denying that the Dutch founded New-York you are denying part of you're history and with that I believe part of you're identity.

Hey, anyone ever gonna post the exact words in the pledge of allegiance that offend the people of the Netherlands?

Hey Mirdorr remember Ytrok?
Guess not cause that would mean you actually read some of the posts, which you obviously don't or you would not have made this statement for the 5th time.

Yup just sit back and do what the US tell you and there is no problem. But don't disagree cause then you're screwed.

What have we told anyone to do?

YOu're using derogatory language in you're example, by that making the comment an insult which I don't think is the case if you say for instance : The dutch founded New-York. This is a fact and in no way derogatory.

Number one: the Dutch did not found New York, the founded New Amsterdam. As far as I can recall, there is no "York" in the Netherlands.

Number Two: You are arguing a different point than the one I made.

There is a HUGE difference between saying "The United States is a former Colony of Great Britian" and calling the United States "The former colonies" instead o the United States. One is a historical fact, the other is (as stated above) a very wry put down. If you can't see the difference, I can't explain it to you.


If you are denying that the Dutch founded New-York you are denying part of you're history and with that I believe part of you're identity.

More than you know. I grew up in the city formerly known as Beverwyck, and there are a great deal of Dutch place names and family names still around the area: such as Rensselear, Quackenbush, Blaatenkill, Postenkill, Caatskill etc. etc. etc.
Nifty link: www.nysm.nysed.gov/albany/beverwyck.html (http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/albany/beverwyck.html)

Dutch founded New-York

Then we kicked their asses and they paced.

Deny history? Why? It's so fun.

Hey Mirdorr remember Ytrok?
Guess not cause that would mean you actually read some of the posts, which you obviously don't or you would not have made this statement for the 5th time.

I've asked you the question at least twice. You've avoided it each time. Specific words. It's hard to think and stuff, but try it.

This thread is like playing dodgeball with a retarded child.
No matter how many times you hit him and tell him hes out, he still sits there and keeps trying to play.

Then we kicked their asses and they paced.

Deny history? Why? It's so fun.


You obviously don't know you're history.
The dutch founded New-Amsterdam and traded that for Surinam with the britisch.
The britisch then renamed New Amsterdam to New-York.
That is how the britisch got New-York and the dutch Surinam.

I've asked you the question at least twice. You've avoided it each time. Specific words. It's hard to think and stuff, but try it.

The problem is that I have allready answered the question, you just don't bother to read the posts and keep harressing me with the same question over and over again.
If you don't bother to read what I wrote don't bother asking me questions, you're not gonne read the answer anyway.

The Dutch wussed out of their land cause they were scared.

I hate Americans!

and im sure if we actully knew you Halo...we'd hate you too

The problem is that I have allready answered the question, you just don't bother to read the posts and keep harressing me with the same question over and over again.

Quit fucking tip toeing around the shit and TELL HIM! Just one last time. Then if he asks again I will personally drive to his house and give him an atomic wedgie! Or could it be you really havent a clue yourself?

And if you try and pull that look it up shit, your barking up the wrong tree.This is YOUR point you are trying to make, WE are not responsible for looking shit up to prove your point.

So pretty please with sugar on top....Tell him the fucking words.

Sorry Baloughtherouge to be the one to tell you this... but

Your tendancy to not answer questions, abandon stances once your asked to verify or defend them, make completly baseless and uninformed statements, and transparent bias are going to equal a short and frustrating stay for you on these boards.
Your rampant stupidity has earned yourself a niec shiney bullseye painted on your forehead..
Your not smart enough to carry on intellegent debate, your not insane like Hartmut to fade in and out of awareness, your not as bitter as Ytrok, not as utterly retarded as Halo, and not as blind to reality as Taino..
So you have no defense against the onslaught after every stupid thing you post, and your too lazy and dumb to research before you post..
So.. the clock is ticking on your ass, its only a matter of (a short) time

"your not insane like Hartmut to fade in and out of awareness, your not as bitter as Ytrok, not as utterly retarded as Halo, and not as blind to reality as Taino.."

or as big headed as L2! (had to add that sorry LL)

'Your not smart enough to carry on intellegent debate'

- That's spelt 'you're'.
You can't even insult someone without looking like a complete twat.
Just.. be quiet LL. Please. For the love of the small children.

So.. the clock is ticking on your ass, its only a matter of (a short) time

You're threatening me L2?
Well that was to be expected you are a patriotic American and I do have a different opinion.

Another post where you avoid a simple question.

You're threatening me L2?

No one is threatening you. No one HAS threatened you. Please quit attempting to make it like someone has a hit out on your worthless ass.

You aren't worth the bullet.